Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to season two of the Next Great Podcast. My
Heart Radio and Tongle have once again teamed up to
bring you another round of amazing and unique voices. We're
excited to share these ten incredible podcasts with you and
need your help crowning the winner. Check out the pilots
and be sure to vote for your favorite at Next
(00:23):
Great podcast dot com. Today's entry is The Two Musketeers
by Anna Weinberg and Andrew Fancouke. You think you know
Alexandra Dumont until Anna and Andrew give you the full store,
Just like Newton's Law did for the guy who discovered
the laws of gravity. We think this show will shed
(00:43):
new light on a beloved author who very few people
actually know anything about. Duma's gripping story has the potential
to attract a big audience, and Anna and Andrew's relaxed
conversational style makes this feel especially approachable, like you're hearing
about a little known chapter of history from a friend.
(01:11):
I'm Anna from Mexico and I'm Andrew from Chicago, and
you're listening to a pilot out The Two Musketeers as
part of the Next Great Podcast one competition from I
Heart Radio and Tongo. Dear listener, before we begin this podcast,
I have been drinking champagne since two in the afternoon.
It is a PM right now. It's not an alcoholic
(01:35):
I'm just a European. You're not a European and you
haven't been drinking champagne. It's that sweet, sweep, bubbily Okay, So, Andrew,
(01:59):
let's talk about enslaved people and particularly those that were
kidnapped in Africa and sent to work in plantations in
the Caribbean during the so called age of imperialism or
whatever the time is called. And just heads up to everybody,
including you, Andrew, this is not going to be a
particularly fun episode because we're going to be discussing enslavement
and we're also going to discuss, you know, violence against women.
(02:22):
So I'm really sorry for all of this. I thought
we wanted people to vote for our show. Well, I'm
a I'm a glutton for punishment. So, enslaved people don't
leave a mark in history. They are like clothes or
wooden objects or flower arrangements because no one talks about
them and they don't leave any archaeological trace, and once
they're gone, they're only like accidental maybe they left a
(02:46):
mark on a hut that survived for some reason, or
their name is is on some merchants. Ledger so Enslaved
people are basically objects with a function, and once they
are unable to perform that function, they disappear. And because
you know, a slave who is sick or mutilated or
dying isn't worth anything. There are bodies who exist to work,
(03:06):
and once they stop working, they stop existing. And what's more,
it's like they never even existed in the first place.
They just disappear, like an inconsequential whisper smoke. So I'm
going to tell you the story of such a woman.
But how can we really tell the story of someone
like this? Everything I tell you will be equally true
and then true. This is more ten years than the
(03:28):
biography of a ghost, because everything that I say can
have happened or can have not happened. So now we're
setting the scene, Andrew, so close your eyes. Imagine you're
on a tropical island. It's very paradise. I'm drinking a
mohitais Yeah, well you're you're not quite next to the beach,
so you can't really hear the ocean crashing. But it's tropical,
(03:50):
so it's all warm. It's a sunset and if anybody has,
you know, been tropical place for sunset, you will know
that the birds will just make like this deafening sound
with the bird calls and everything, and you know, slowly
the birds start dying down and then oh you can
hear are like the crickets and frogs. And it's also
three dred years ago, so there's no machines, there's no
(04:12):
light pollution, so if you look up, you can see
all the stars, all the you know, an all the glory,
beautiful paradise, paradise. I'm loving it on a cell phone inside.
And we're in we're in a Caribbean island, so it's
been really humid all day. It's been really warm and sticky,
as I said, but now it's almost like pleasantly cool.
(04:33):
Also we're in the mountains, so that makes it better.
And thankfully we're not on a sugar plantation, because sugar
plantations were the most proble. But right now we're in
a coffee and cacao plantation. It's owned by someone called
Alexandre Antoine d who here is just called Antoine delil So,
Anthony of the Isle. I personally believe that we should
(04:54):
just call him by his full name as a matter
of respect. I assume that we will be respecting this
person because there's not being morally wrong about him. No,
there isn't. So we're in this place called sat Demand,
but today we just know it as Haiti, and we're
in this property of your friend, uh alexandre antin upstanding
moral citizens. Just you wait, Andrew, just you wait. Okay,
(05:18):
So we're in this property and when this house, which
is by the way, not so grand because Antoine was
not really good at business. But I mean you can
imagine like this grand plantation house with a huge roof
that covers you know, veranda that goes around the whole house.
And I just want to think it's blue because I
like blue, and you know, with white accents and white shutters,
(05:40):
and it all opens into a verend that it's it's
quite lovely. But unfortunately, Andrew, I'm going to stop you
right there. We're not heading for the house. We are
heading for the shacks. And there there must be some
shacks closer to the plantation, to the fields and the machinery,
but were there must have also been shacks that are
closer to the house, because that's the enslaved people who
(06:01):
look after the house live, and that's where we're going,
And we might be hearing crickets. We might also be
hearing like the distant bark of the dogs that run
the property at night to ensure that no one escapes
and then goes hiding into a jungle. But if we
go near one of these shacks, will probably hear people
talking and gossiping. I'm sure they must have been mostly women.
(06:22):
There must be a handful of babies, of babies and
small children just crying and talking and maybe even singing.
Because one of the things that I find amazing about
humanity is that we can find a way of making,
you know, the best out of the most horrible situations.
So maybe these people were actually having some joy. But
(06:42):
we would not be hearing French, even though this is
a French colony. We would be hearing Creole. I have
a question. In yeah, what is Creo? Is a mixture
of like a Western language and other languages, So it's
it's like a blanket term that's used to to define
a bunch of different languages, like the one you find
(07:02):
in the US. In Louisiana is a mixture with French
and also with Western African languages. In some other places
it might be mixed with Dutch with English. But it's
basically just you know, a Hodge project of different languages
that come together, and in this case is Creole, French
and what and probably West African languages. No native languages
(07:24):
because the people in the islands have been exterminated, you know,
for the past two hundred years, but mostly languages from
from the west of Africa, you know, from what is
today in Nigeria, Ghana, places like that. I wonder if
any Italian guys had to deal with the fact that
there are no native languages on the island. Uh So,
maybe two people from the same area found each other
(07:45):
and then they can talk in their own language and
maybe that makes them a little bit happy. I think
it would make me happy. I mean, if I heard
another guy who spoke Igbo on the other half of
the world, that'd be pretty cool. And this is it's
set and we're finally meeting our protagonist who's named Marie Duma.
I thought Alexandre Duma wrote the book. I know, we're
(08:07):
not talking about him, we're talking about Mariet and we
don't know when she was born or where she was born.
And now I'm going to use this this phrase a
lot because we don't know anything. We're almost certain that
she was born in Africa and then she was kidnapped
and forcefully transported to the Caribbean. But there's also the
chance that she might have been born into enslavement. But
(08:29):
as luck would have it, she was taken to Saint Doman,
which is the richest island in the Caribbean. And if
you really want to know more about this, Mike Duncan
has a whole episode on the Haitian Revolution and his
first couple of episodes are really good at setting the scene.
We get to kill slave owners. That's the listener to
be clear, later on the story, slave owners will die.
(08:50):
Very cool, very good. Andrew, I'm sorry to spoil this
for you, but no one's going to die here. This
is very upsetting, it is. But anyway m Mariusus said,
could have you know, had the horrible lock of ending
up in a sugar plantation where she would have died,
you know, in less than ten years, because that's what
they did. They worked them to death and then bought
more people because that was cheaper, so Marisus said, is
(09:15):
in the market literally, and then this guy Antoine, he
liked her. He liked her so much that he wrote
in a letter that he paid an exorbitant amount for her,
so which means he got like really horny for her.
That Okay, you know what, paying for your sex slave
not great. Let's let's let's say that's not good. I'm
(09:38):
gonna put that on a not good category. M hm.
Really coming hard on all of this, Andrew, I am.
I am firmly anti slavery, to be clear. So so
Marisus said, was bought by this man and then taken
to work in his cacao and coffee plantation. But he
liked her so much that instead of sending her to
the fields, he assigned her to the house. And then
(10:01):
that's where she was given this last name in French,
that means she's off the house. Oh, like masonson, does
this bring any bells now? Andrew, Look, this is like
four years of French coming in handy, and I'm sure
glad you took four years of French for this. So
(10:23):
I it's it's hard because I want to tell her story,
but I also don't want to focus on all the
pain she went through. I don't want to like focus
on the scar she must have had or her body.
I started thinking, you know, did she have any property?
And she probably if she had something of value, then
it would have been taken away when she was kidnapped.
If she had like a trinket or something that wasn't
(10:44):
the value, probably some asshole, because people are also assholes,
like some asshole and a power trip just too good
from her, just too even if it was just like
a pebble or something. What religion would she be or
are we going to get to that? No, we're not.
We're not going to get to that. But I I
don't know, because you know, by this point, you know,
(11:05):
just in Nigeria, you already had a bunch of religions.
You had Islam, and you had a local religions that
are not monotheistic. You didn't have Christian missionaries yet, but
there could have been a bunch of religious Probably she
was polytheistic animistic religion. Yeah, I mean that this is
like the traditions where like voodoo comes from and Santoria
(11:28):
and stuff like that. That's pretty cool. I like the
I like the idea of putting curses on slave owners
very interesting. You know, I'm listening, I'm very interesting. I'm
willing to learn more. You know, here's here's hoping. You know,
I'm crossing my fingers. It's seventeen. And what she does
(11:48):
have with her are her three children. She has two
girls and a boy that we know of. She could
have had more that no one has ever recorded. She
could have you know, lost babies or pregnancy, so, you know,
really tragic stuff. And you know, but they're not really
hairs because she's a slave. So they were born into slavery.
So these kids belonged to the slaver, but they also
(12:09):
belonged to your friend Antoine because he's their dad. Yikes. Yeah,
plot twist. Uh So I mean, does this remind you
of Sally Hemmings. By the way, for the listeners who
don't hate themselves and have not looked into Thomas Jefferson,
Thomas Jefferson raped his slave a lot. Her name was
Sally Hemmings, and some people will try to tell you, oh, no,
(12:33):
she was just his mistress. She could not consent to
have sex with Thomas Jefferson. Uh. A lot of stuff
isn't written about her. Google Sally Hemmings very interesting person.
Uh not his girlfriend. To be clear, she was his slave. Yeah,
sex slave? Yeah so so well. I wouldn't call her
(12:53):
a sex slave. I would call her a slave who
also is expected to perform sexual tasks. But she would
also have to like scrub the toilets and stuff, so
that made it worse. Yeah, this makes it worse. I know,
aren't I the best podcaster? This is I want? I Want, listener, listener,
(13:13):
if you do not know, this podcast is actually being
produced for the I Heart Radio Network as part of
an election. Now, I know what you're thinking. Elections. Isn't
that just surrendering to a bourgeois parliamentary democracy? Yes, listener,
I too agree that we should engage in maoist insurrectionary violence,
but unfortunately I cannot engage in maoist insurrectionary violence against
the I Heart Radio Network in order to have them
(13:35):
produce my podcast, which is therefore why we are asking
you to vote on this podcast. I do not know, however,
why we decided to make our first episode about slavery,
a very positive and uplifting topic that makes people think, hmmm,
this is positive enoughlifting slavery. I should vote on this
because I feel good as a result of this podcast
(13:55):
about slavery. Well, I mean back to I have nothing
to say to that, So back to Mary sis it.
So the one thing that we know for certain is
that in seventeen seventy five her Enslaver had to rush
back to France because he was the child of a
(14:16):
marquis such so of a nobleman and like the Marquis
de Lafayette. Yeah so, but but his parents died and
then his brothers died, and then he was like, oh, ship,
if I don't rush back to France, then this cousin
is going to steal this title away from me. Damn.
Everyone just be dying randomly. I mean, they don't know
how to wash their hands. Andrew, they shipped in the
(14:39):
same water they drink. I for one thing, ship water
tastes great, But what do I know? Yeah, you're you're
in Europe right now. Anyway, So in seventeen five, Antoine
had to rush back to France. And I told you
he was a bad businessman, right, So he didn't have
any money so and he needed like cash and he
(15:01):
needed fast. So he sold everything that he owned. He
sold his beautiful house that I have described to you,
He sold his plantations and his crops, and he also
sold machisis. And of course he sold his own children.
No to self, do not sell children. Do not sell
your own children. I mean, yeah, don't, don't. Don't traffick
(15:21):
in children as a rule. But child slavery bad. Yeah,
And again we don't. We really don't know anything else
about Nevisa said she could have died before this, she
could have died during this. Also, her own child later
wrote like conflicting accounts of what happened to her. So again,
I mean, I'm speculating. So she gets sold, hopefully she
(15:42):
gets to remain in the same area. So she again
she's not taken to work the sugar plantations, and she's
able to stick with her three children. This but this
is honestly, this is just like the gift I'm giving
her through fiction because I want to imagine the best
for her after this. In seventeen seventy six, her son,
she had remembered she had one son and two daughters.
(16:03):
The son is taken away from her. Maybe she knows
what happened to him, maybe she doesn't. And it's seventy
seventy five. We're seventeen years away from the upraising in Haiti. Look,
is is the mass execution of white people on an
entire island a bad thing? Technically legally white and slavers.
(16:23):
Look listener. If you want to know my opinion on
mass violence against white people, Andrew, you're white, I'm not
going to include that. Yeah, don't listener. We are prob
So it's seventeen seventy five and we're seventeen years away
(16:45):
from the first uprising in Haiti. Cannot wait for that
first uprising? For the record, Well, we don't know what
happened to Mary sus said, so, you know, fingers crossed.
I also cannot wait. I hope that she had like
an easier life and that she was able to survive
to the end of the Haitian revolution. And I'm you know,
I'm I really wish that that she got settled somewhere
(17:08):
with her daughters and maybe she had grandchildren, and maybe
she was you know, singing I cheese personally to believe
that she engaged in protracted people's war and gained rageous
victory over this white slavers of the island, what can
I say yes yes to that? Uh? And then that's
the story of Marisette and that's like a lot, isn't it.
(17:30):
Slavery not good, extremely bad event. So listener, personally, I
believe that slavery is bad. If you disagree, um, fuck you.
Well that's that's our episode. And uh, when we were
planning this first episode, you told me that I should
(17:52):
start at the beginning. And then I was thinking, but
what does the beginning even mean? And I thought, you know,
I want to tell the story of marysus said, because
that's in a way where it all began, but also
because if we only get to make one episode, I
wanted to tell this story. I know it's I know
it's not you know, the funniest subject famously a bad
(18:15):
time for untold millions, perhaps even a billion, human beings.
We're going to talk about a lot of people that
no one really talks about, and we're going to tell
stories that aren't really told. But you know, I think
the one that's in most danger of being forgotten is
Mari sus said, even if the only thing that we
(18:37):
know for certain is that she lived at some point
and that she has this name. So Mari sus Said
was given the last name Duma, and then her son
used that last name and then her son's son decided
to write under that name, and that's where we get
to the subject of this podcast. Do you care to
introduce him, Andrew Alexandre Dumb Yes, thank you. You know
(19:03):
French no better Alexandre. We we Yeah, we're talking about
the author Alexandre Duma. And the question really is why
does he matter? Alexandre Duma was the most famous writer
of his time. Of all the writers who were writing
in the writing country to ever write, you know, nineteenth
(19:24):
century friends, he was the most famous. He was more
famous than you know Balzac or your friend Victor Hugo Goo.
They insult music time. They say a Americans stop masturbating
in dist American and American? Why are you still in
my night watch? I don't know whether, I don't know
(19:46):
where they have that accent, but they say these things.
But okay, um, whatever crimes against the French, you're performing aside.
Alexandre Duma was like the most famous writer of his times,
and he was competing against like some heavyweights. And after
spending a bunch of time reading his works, I can
tell you that he's actually good. I mean, he's really good.
(20:08):
But that's not why he matters. He matters because the
spite being so famous, people don't even remember him. Andrew,
how many books by Duma have you read? I can't read? Yeah, figures.
If you study French literature, you'll devoted a lot of
time to Balzac or Hugo. Uh, Andrew, I don't masturbate
(20:34):
in public. No, I'm the one who masturbates in public.
It's fine, It's not illegal in France, Okay. I mean
he was more famous than any of those guys whose
names I won't mention again. But no one mentions Duma.
And it's almost as if he didn't exist, or als
if he didn't matter. But he matters, and he matters
(20:55):
a lot. And not only because he was a bestseller
or because he invented some of the most well loved
characters in literature. He matters, you know, not only because
he invented travel writing, or because he made the novel
into what it is today. He matters because he's almost
been forgotten. And what matters is why he's been forgotten.
(21:17):
Alexandre Duma is a literally giant that has been raised
because he was black. He was the grandson of Anna's
lived woman. He was a grandson of Marysisset, and for
the last two centuries his importance has been downplayed and
his talent has been outright denied. And he matters because
his life was fascinating and it's a really good story
(21:37):
and the story of Alexander Duma is really the story
of everything else. So this has been the Two Musketeers.
Will it be the first episode or the only episode? You,
the listener, can decide. Listener. Unfortunately, I cannot engage in
protracted people's work against the I Heart Radio Network because
(21:57):
I would like them to give me money. Fortunately, we
can gage in social democratic opportunism by having you vote
for this podcast. Information on how to vote for this
podcast can be found in the description below. Please engage
in social democratic reformism today and help the cow Ski
movement build socialism from within the I Heart Radio Network.
So I'm Anna, I'm Andrew, and you can follow me
(22:19):
on Twitter at small Underscore History, and you can follow
Andrew at Comrade Pancake, and you can contact the show
at Small Things History at gmail dot com and on god. Hi.
(22:47):
This is Sienna from Tossed Popcorn, last year's winner of
the Next Great Podcast. Thank you so much for listening
to this episode and be sure to go vote for
your favorite at next Great podcast dot com. M