Carey Bennett

Did you ever wonder where Dwight’s mustard shirts, Pam’s cardigans, or Jim’s three-hole-punch costume came from? This week, costume designer extraordinaire Carey Bennett is ready to share it all. She and Brian dive into the intricacies of The Office costume design - from the show’s unfashionable fashion to collaborations with Rainn Wilson to helping create and define individual characters through their costumes.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, guys, I'm Jade Ivne and I host Tell Me
About It, the podcast that is the antithesis of a
success story podcast where we leave things like girl Boss,
energy and lucky breaks at the door and instead celebrate
and commiserate about all the things that make us human.
This is the podcast manifestation of those conversations you have

(00:21):
with your best friend at four am. We have all
kinds of women from all different walks of life, like
Gwen Stefani, Steph Schep, Amanda Knox, La La Kent, Raven Simone,
and Jojo. Listen to Tell Me About It with Jade
Ivene on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast or
wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, it's Gary Bennett and

(00:47):
I was the costume signer on the Office. Hello everyone,
and welcome back to the Office Deep Dive. I am
your host Brian Baumgartner. Today, Yes you just heard it,

(01:08):
I am breaking on a very important guest. Without her,
there would be no mustard colored shirts, no cat embroidered sweaters,
no well no sumo suits. That's right. Today's guest is
the one and only Carrie Bennett, costume designer extraordinaire for

(01:29):
the Office. You guys, nobody committed like Carrie Bennett. Nobody
for costume research. She called up, hunted down, scouted a
real life paper company just to nail the looks. And
it is not like she had all the money in
the world. No, she had a tiny budget, but many,

(01:53):
many J. C. Penny suits. Now, some people may think
that the office was just how hard could that be?
It's just suits and ties and maybe a little awkward haircuts. No,
Carrie made sure every character was was individual. They had
their own look, whether it was Phyllis purple tops or

(02:17):
Michael's bizarre ties or Dwight's aviator glasses. Personally, I was
a little too aware that Kevin never ever, ever took
off his jacket even when playing basketball. But hey, that's Carrie.
So without further ado, I would like to introduce you

(02:38):
all to our amazing costume designer, Carrie Bennett. Bubble and Squeak.
I love it. Bubble and Squeak on Bubble and Squeaker
cookie every month left over from the night before. Well,

(03:09):
there she is, right, Carrie, how are you? It's so
good to see you. Likewise, oh my gosh, how are you?
I mean, I'm doing good. I'm great. Everybody's healthy on
your end. Yeah, yeah, we've somehow evaded any kind of cooties.

(03:36):
Very good. Avoiding cooties are good, especially after two years.
I don't even know how it's possible, right, Yeah, just
just one day at a time, One day at a time,
that's right. So you and I, Oh my gosh, this
is so amazing because in preparation to talk to you,
I remember so many of our conversation is back in

(04:02):
what do you call it? A the trailer? The costume trailer?
Is that right? Yeah? We have like a a trailer
in the parking lot. A trailer in the parking was
our headquarters. Yeah, it's maximum glamour. Well that's the television, right.
Everybody thinks that it's glamorous, but it's really not. Is that?

(04:23):
Is that what you dreamed of when you were a child,
that kind of glamour in television? Um, so I saw
because well I researched you. I've got a team researching.
There's so many people researching. You went to cal Arts,
which I know what cal arts is, so I assume

(04:47):
at an early age you were interested in the arts.
Now was costume design what you wanted to do early on? Yeah?
You know, actually my undergrad degree is in dance. Oh
and during that time, I worked in the costume shop
and I always sewed. I just always like crafty. And

(05:08):
I had a teacher there that was like, you have
the best energy for working in television. She planted that seed.
And um. So when I graduated as a dancer and
had like injuries all the time, and I was like,
is this my life? Is this what I'm gonna do?
Going to be in physical therapy forever? Um? And I

(05:28):
you know, I had sort of like this little bit
of a costume base that I had been doing costumes
for dance productions and stuff. And I put together the
most hilarious, lame portfolio. Like anybody out there who wants
to be a costume designer shouldn't look at my portfolio
because I did not draw at that point. Um, But

(05:49):
I I just put it out there. And I got
into CalArts as a grad student, and oh my god,
it was the best thing I ever did. It was
so great. I learned all the stuff. They have an
amazing theater program there and just gave me the confidence
to be like, oh, you know what I'm talking about
Now I can draw and I can I can sew

(06:10):
and design concepts and here we go. Right, So you
were a dancer who had designed costumes for dance recitals.
Is that what you that's the word, right, recitals? And
then you were like, I'm gonna make a change. You
do a portfolio, you apply to cowards get in as

(06:31):
a costume designer. Is that? Is that what you got in?
You got in? Is that? And you didn't know how
to draw barely? Right? It sounds like every single person's
journey on the office. Everybody who got to the office
actually didn't know what they were doing in a traditional
sense before it happened. Well, I mean the thing is like,

(06:53):
there's a long journey between that and getting on the
office though for sure, right, No, I know that. I
just I joke because well, there's so many people, right. So,
Claire Scanlon, our editor, had never edited scripted television before
Randall Einhorn, Matt Son. They had never shot, not even

(07:13):
to speak of directing scripted television before Phillis, who was
not an actor. When she's I mean so that that
I don't know that theme. There's something there's something there, right,
Well you know what? And here, yes, and I know
what it is. Actually what that is is the fear
of not being able to pull it off and the
earnestness of like getting it right, Like, Okay, I got

(07:38):
I was given this job, I'm gonna do it. I'm
going to figure it out. I'm going to do it
to the best of my ability. And I feel like
that that incredible earnestness we all had for wanting it
to be authentic and to really you know, get the
details right and stuff like. I mean, I can say
it now as a you know, I still strive for that,

(08:00):
but like I'm older and you know I've done it,
I don't know that I dig that deeply into it.
I mean, my the preparation and the research that I
did to accomplish my work on the Office is legendary
in my career. Oh my god. Well, I really want

(08:21):
to hear about that. But I want to I want
to start where you and my relationships started. Not that
I worked on the show, but I we discussed a
lot about it. You're the designer on Scrubs for a
long period of time. I find that so interesting because
the characters on Scrubs are very easily identifiable by their wardrobe. However,

(08:47):
they're all wearing scrubs, right, most of them are all
wearing the same thing. And so you know, in leading
up to the office, not that that was your not
that that was your rehearsal. But I find it very
interesting that you were able to find unique looks based
in character for people who were largely wearing the same thing.

(09:09):
Can you talk to me a little bit about scrubs
and your experience there? God, you are You're amazing. You've
done your research. Thank you so much for recognizing that,
because yeah, that is where the real magic comes from,
and that is where my research is the golden ticket there.
Because on Scrubs, I went with our director Adam Bernstein

(09:31):
on the pilot. We went to a hospital downtown in
downtown l A. It's kind of a little bit of
a scary um the scarier hospitals, and we had a
tour and um, I wasn't allowed to take photographs, but
I had my little notepad there and I mean, I
just I just drank it in because I never assume

(09:53):
that I know what I'm talking about, because I feel
like that's where it looks cheesy, like, oh, doctors where this?
But there were so many details that I gleaned from that,
and so many characters that I witnessed and saw them
working and saw their little details and saw, you know,
like the Doug character that I saw a guy like

(10:15):
wearing a Fannie pack with his water bottle attached to it.
He had like his his personal gear, you know, not
like his works, like his stethoscope and stuff. Like he
had his person like he was like a commando. Yeah,
Like he had his stuff. And I thought that was fascinating,
and so that that to me, that is like I

(10:36):
considered that the bulk of my work is getting into
the nitty gritty and taking those pictures. If I can't
take pictures, I'm constantly taking pictures of people on the street.
I'm sorry, everybody out there, I'm sneaking a picture of you.
My my grandma taught me how to do that. Like
she she was a painter, and she one time taught

(10:58):
me at the airport. She's like, oh, see those cute
ladies over there, I'm gonna paint them, but first I
need to get a photograph of them. And here's how
you do that. You put your camera down at your
hip and you aim it at them, and you look
the other direction and you take a picture. Yeah, well, listen,
let me tell you something. I can speak from personal experience.

(11:18):
I know now that they're taking a picture of that, right,
we'll see now it's different. It sounds creepy now, right,
But I mean the thing is like, as far as
research goes, like, that's the thing. It's just because I
truly want to honor the special mojo that that person has,
Like I want to get those details right, because that's
what really makes a difference. And that's what really shows

(11:38):
when everyone's wearing scrubs or when everyone's wearing suits and ties,
Like how do you make that look different? Like how
do you you know? That's that's the real challenge, you know.
I was thinking about it last night, not to go
too deeply personal, but my my dad was a doctor
and worked at a at a hospital research hospital, and

(12:02):
so as a kid, I thought, oh, this is what
doctors where, right, Like he had slacks, button down shirt
tie and his white lab coat and so like my
brain as a child went, oh, that's that's what doctors wear. Right.

(12:22):
And then later on, and I was thinking about this
last night, I realized, like, no, that's not exactly what
all doctors were, right, this is what my dad wore
and what he wore and how he dressed affect people's
impression of him who he was as a character, because

(12:43):
even in that uniform, I think to your point, like
there is an individuality and you're either delivering a message
or a message is set based on on what you're wearing.
But I think you know, really what's interesting for me
is it sounds like for you it's about character, right,
So the wardrobe is defined by by that, right, And

(13:05):
that's in collaboration with the writer. Absolutely. I mean, that's
that's the whole process. And it's funny, like I just
want to clarify, like, because I this is so ran.
This never happens to me. It probably happens to you
all the time. But they hadn't approached me at a restaurant.
Was like, I never, it never happens to me. But
we had a conversation about the office and doing costumes
for it, and he was like, oh, so you did

(13:28):
the Gym's three Whole Punch costume for Halloween and the
Ben Franklin Think And I was like, no, no, no, no, no.
Every single thing that every single person wears is designed
and it's thought through from the reading of the script,
figuring out who those people are, what their backstory is.

(13:48):
There's input from the producers, there's input from the writers,
there's input from the directors, and of course the most important,
incredible input is from the actor who's thinking it through
like how they want to do it. So I've always
thought on myself as sort of like the filter, like
I taken all that information and filter it down to
something that makes sense quickly. As soon as you see

(14:12):
those characters on the screen, you have to sort of
get a feeling of who they are, where they shot.
I mean, they're clothing is what broadcasts where they're coming from,
kind of right, you know, And yet you don't want
it to broadcast too much. You don't want it to
be like, oh, you know, you want it to be subtle.
So so yeah, so it's it's all that well, and

(14:33):
I think on Scrubs on the Office as well, right,
there's um, well, specifically the Office, it's about creating real
people and sort of a reality. So yeah, it's not
about indicating certain things, it's about sort of getting at
the essence. Okay, so getting into the office. So I

(14:55):
read I didn't remember this. You started working on the
Office during a hiatus of Scrubs, Is that right? Yeah? Yeah,
I did the two shows for four years. I did.
I did both shows at the same time, which, in
retrospect was insanity insane. How could you possibly do? I mean,

(15:16):
Scrubs is not a small cast show either. By the way,
in case you didn't remember, there were a lot of
characters there. Um, we had what sixteen eighteen twenty, I
don't know how many people you were war drobing on
a weekly basis. Oh, like so many. It was a lot.
And it was completely fueled by uh, Starbucks. It was

(15:41):
you know, it just worked out perfectly. It was such
that like our studio was there in the valley and
Scrubs was kind of, you know, a few blocks away,
and they're literally like I'm not kidding, there was a
Starbucks in between, and I would just go back and
forth all day long. I would stop at Starbucks, grab
a coffee, read my script. I don't remember ever sleeping, right,
sure not. I think I was doing seventy weeks on

(16:02):
both shows. Oh my god, that's not It's not insane.
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Need to hire you need indeed. So when you started

(18:07):
work on the office, it's not everybody in scrubs, right,
but it's everybody in business attire. What was your process
for trying to again give some specificity and individuality to
the characters there through what would on the outside again
being like, oh, this is just what you wear to work? Yeah, well,

(18:31):
once again, I started my whole process like, I have
no idea what I'm talking about. I've never worked in
an office myself, so I just and it's, you know,
it's going back to that thing. It's like a little
bit of fear, like how am I going to get
this right? So I always start my research like trying
to get myself on the ground somewhere where I can

(18:52):
immerse myself and see what it really looks like. And um,
I don't know. I talked to the lead these office
ladies that they had never heard the story. They had
no idea. I found a paper company in Glendale, here's
my next little town over and I invited myself over there.
I spoke to the owner and I was like, Hey,
I'm doing this show, I'm researching. Would it be okay

(19:15):
if I came over and just chatted with you and
just you could just give me a tour? And I
got there and oh my god, Bryant, it was beyond amazing.
It was so awesome. All the characters were there, all
the look of it was there. It was stunning. And
it had some similarities to the UK version, like they

(19:37):
had that fish on the wall, that fish on the
plaquet that they had that, and I was like, Billy
big mouth bath or something. Yes, yes, yes, So they
were so wonderful and kind and let me take pictures
and I talked to everybody in there and got such
an incredible vibe from I took a thousand pictures. I

(19:58):
put them in a little slide show. I put a
little music to it, little Welcome to the Working Week,
and I brought it back and I showed Greg and
he was like, what is this? Where is this? You
will take me back here, You can take me to

(20:18):
this place. So we went back. We went with our DP,
and we went with our production designer and we all
went back there and filmed everything, and I think I
started a relationship with them, Like we used all of
their paper products. It was just such a vibe and
I think they still exist. I actually saw their truck
the other day. I don't want to say their name

(20:40):
because I don't, but that's amazing. It was amazing, And
so that's what gives me a touchstone. Like I referred
back to those pictures so many times, like when I
don't know, when I was tired and I was like
trying to figure out my umpty character, like new person
coming in and had to be a regular person, but
had to be different than the last regular person. You know.

(21:02):
It's like I had that little touchstone that I could
go back to and go like, oh, yeah, remember that
little detail or the way they wore their pants, or
when I first went, it was like their casual Friday
um and the guy there that was my Dwight inspiration.
He was wearing like a T shirt with a wolf

(21:23):
on it that day that I went, and I was like, oh,
I see, that is amazing. But that's and that's what
I'm saying, like I feel like back in the day,
like that's that like that stemmed from like sort of
my fear of not getting it right right, So I

(21:45):
was like, I gotta get some concrete visuals and that's insane. Yeah. Well,
and you know that's exactly what John Krasinski did too, right,
I mean, that's literally exactly what he did. He was
in New York work. I mean, he lived in New
York and was like, well, scrans only two hours away.

(22:06):
I guess I should go see it. And he went
to pen paper there and started talking to the people
who worked at the paper company there. I didn't know that. Yeah,
he went to That's so amazing. I didn't do that.
I didn't go to a paper company, to be clear,

(22:27):
I didn't. I didn't do that. Um but I but
I find that really interesting that that a real person. Yeah,
inspired that. I mean, Dwight's a great example, right, Like,
on the one hand, it's work attire, but those mustard
shirts and you know, almost gives it. I don't even

(22:48):
know that I've ever articulated this before, but almost a
militaristic look in a weird way. That color and very
straight lace. That's interesting. Well, and to like a lot
of his look. You know. Another thing that I really
dedicated myself too was shopping where these people would shop.

(23:12):
Like that's the trickiest thing in Hollywood, because like there's
so much magic that goes into like just a basic
T shirt. You know, like there cut every different magical
way with magical fabric to make actors look amazing. But
I was like, you know what, we need to shop
people's shop, And so I did a lot of J. C. Penny,

(23:32):
which I don't know if they still do it, but
at the time, it is amazing deal where you could
get if you were like a working guy, you go
and get your suit outfit there and it would have
a suit, a shirt, a tie, a belt, and maybe
the socks the socks and it was like a whole
one price, like a hundred bucks. And I was like,

(23:52):
that is so awesome, Like that's that's exactly what I
would do if I was this guy working in office,
I would go, like, get my three suit outfits. And
we all said, well, they had those amazing colored suits,
like the olive green and ochre and that sort of
putty color, and it just started to make a story
for me and yeah, I don't know, I just ran

(24:17):
with it and it just suited him so well, and
it yeah, it did have kind of like a little
We always toyed with the fact that he that he
was kind of enamored with military or sort of German heritage,
and like, yeah, how much how much did you collaborate
with rain onight? Oh my gosh. He was so good

(24:41):
at giving specific input and and he was always the
one that would call me and go, hey, I think
I wear a hat in this episode. Could it be this?
Or like, what do you think about this? Or he
always had some kind of really great insight, and then
we would just kind of hash it out together, like
with this, work with this, let's try this, and um,

(25:05):
yeah he's tuned in to the subtleties and thinking about it,
and yeah, I always had a special take on it. Yeah,
it's really fun and easy to collaborate with. Yeah, you
know what's so funny you just said that. I remember
we had a big deal with the hat, you and
I because it was Kevin when his band got established,

(25:30):
and we were looking for something that would be like
this is what this is, like the cape right of
a superhero, this is what he puts on when he's
in the band, And we had this hat, and I
think we both love this hat and it was there
early on, and then the hat vanished. I don't know
if you remember this. The hat left, it went away

(25:53):
like we don't know, one knows ever where it went.
And so then it was like this whole thing, and
I'm sure I was such a pain in the ass.
I was like we were look, you guys brought in
like seventy hats and I was like, no, no, it's
not that it has to be because it was like, oh,
you mean, I say, like it got lost, like it
actually got like, yes, like it would vanish. It was

(26:17):
like it went away. And you know, we didn't do
the the Scrantn City stuff that often, so you know,
I don't remember how long it had been. It had
been a year, it had been whatever, And I know
everybody keeps everything and it's all documented, but somehow this
hat vanished. Yeah, there was a big deal about that. Um.
But I remember for Kevin and you and I talked

(26:39):
a lot about this at the time that on a tradition,
let's just call it a traditional sitcom, there is a
way that Kevin would have been wardrobed right, and it
probably would have included food on his clothes. Uh, very messy.

(27:01):
Sloven Le like not able to keep his shirt tucked in,
like various things. And you know, well, one of the
things that I'm really proud of about the show is
that we were really trying to create real people, and
within that there are there are contradictions within what you
would expect and and you know what's written on the

(27:22):
page and what the actual person would do. And I
remember you and I we spent a lot of time. Look,
it wasn't like he was going to sacks for Barney's
or Marcus, but it was like, no, he's gonna make
his best effort and things might be a little off. Um.
We explored a little bit early on. I don't know

(27:42):
if you remember with his tie being a little bit
shorter than it should be, um, but that he was
always doing his best effort and so much so that
I was like, he wants to be put together. And
one of the things we talked about was Kevin always
wore his jacket, Like for him, that was again like

(28:02):
that was at work. You wear your jacket and you
keep things together. And there were things that I at
least thought were really funny that came out of that
little character thing, one of which was, well, the basketball
episode in the first season where he's making shot after
shot and he's still wearing his code, he's still wearing

(28:22):
his tie is not loosened. And you know, some of
that stuff, obviously, depending on context, got got looser over time.
But yeah, that it was about It was a guy
who was really putting his best effort forward and it
may not look beautiful or whatever, but that we didn't
go for the cheap joke. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing.

(28:44):
It's the earnestness that's so sweet and endearing. And I
never want any of my research subjects to feel like
they are being made fun of. That is is never
my intention. My intention is to get to the heart

(29:04):
of what makes somebody tick. And that to me, is
so delicious and adorable about every human being. We all have.
Those things are weird, little idio secreencies. That's the thing
that you have to find in each character, and and

(29:25):
the vulnerability, and I just keep coming back to the earnestness,
the earnestness that Kevin wore his his jacket, you know,
and and um, I think that's what makes characters really endearing.
I think if you go for like the cheap like, oh,
he's this he's kind of he's a mess, and he's
got chili on his tie. It's so obvious that you

(29:48):
kind of don't. It doesn't endear you too to the character.
So I think it's I think it's really worth finding
those little things and holding that line like that's that's
the real Allan. It's so funny because I've had to
defend my I guess defend my work at times when
I've had interviews with people like what costumes are there
on the office, And I'm like, hold on, you don't

(30:12):
know these guys, like these are some of the hottest
actors in Hollywood, they don't show up in this gear.
I don't know about that really. I mean, you look
pretty slick right now. You have a great looking polo
shirt on. And you know, it was my job to
take everyone down a little notch every day and to
hold that line, like because after the first season, everybody

(30:36):
wanted to be kind of more fancy and have their
better clothing. It's like I stuck with it. I stuck
with it thru thick and thin. I stuck with it.
You know, we never we never got more pretty over here,
I promise, Well except except the uh, the wedding where

(30:58):
suddenly Kevin has a very like, a very legitimately nice
suit with fake hair, yeah, which is probably a rental,
you know, And that's when you kind of things up
a little bit because you're wedding outfits are rental so fine,
so it's not really like the stuff you own. But yeah,

(31:19):
I remember I remember being I remember being difficult to
find your blazers, your cool blazers that were just like
these kind of textured kind of from be It was
hard to find those, you know, they weren't slick looking.
They weren't you always worked, No, they weren't. And there
and oh my gosh, I haven't thought about this in

(31:40):
years and years because I because I remember being, oh god,
I remember being super defensive because there was something with
our because by the way, guys in Hollywood here, when
you're shooting an episode and especially the office, you're wearing
the same thing every day for five days. So okay,
usually these things, over the course of just normal hygiene,

(32:04):
they have to be cleaned. But they started um through
the cleaning process or something, or the material they were
using they started shrinking, and and I would be like, guys,
this doesn't fit and I'm sure everyone's like, okay, Brian,
way to go, and I'm like, no, no, And I
don't know if you remember, but they would be like
the arms would be like three inches short, like they

(32:28):
were coming up my arm and I would be like, God,
my arms not growing, like this is not I mean, yes,
so welcome to my world. This is so funny. I
mean the one time Greg Daniels came on our trailer
and he looked at how it was all set up
with all the closets laying there, and he was like
he looked at Michael Scott's and eels, why does he

(32:51):
have so many of the same suit? Why does he
have like what? And I was like, oh, yeah, an
episode takes place, the story takes place in one day, right,
but it takes us five or six days to shoot that,
five or six full days to shoot that. So yeah,

(33:13):
stuff happens. I mean, you go to lunch with your
suit on and it gets spaghetti sauce on it, or
I remember Steve like slipped down the stairs of his
trailer at one time and actually ripped the ripped his
suit or Sweetie like he ripped the elbow. So that's
the thing. So we have multiples, so like I would
never but and that's what also makes the challenge. I'm

(33:34):
trying to find these funny numbly suit coats for you
and but also in multiples, which was really really hard.
So I think we had for you less because yours
were so unique, Like we had less of each one
and yeah, shit happens, like and because they're dry cleaned
every day, and I'm sorry, Oh my gosh, I haven't

(34:00):
I thought about that so long. I just remember being like, well,
because for me, it was like it wasn't so much.
Did that happened? Because I knew something, We would figure
something out. But it was like, no, this is not
my fault. Guys, this is not me. My arm didn't grow.
But maybe it was maybe it helped your character. Hi.

(34:27):
I'm Glory Adam, host of Well Read Black Girl. Each week,
I sit in close conversation with one of my favorite
authors of color and share stories about how they found
their voice, hone their craft, and navigated the publishing world,
and composed some of the most beautiful and meaningful words
I've ever read. We journey together through the cultural moment

(34:51):
where art, culture and literature collide and pay homage to
the women whose books we grew up reading. And of
course I check in with members of the Well Read
Black Girl book Club. It's a literary kickback you never
knew you needed. And you're all invited to join the club.
So tell your friends, tell their friends so we can

(35:13):
be friends who love books. Listen to a well Read
Black Girl on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts
or wherever you get your podcasts. What was the budget, like,

(35:38):
oh my god, okay, because what was it? What was
the budget? Like? Tiny, dude, Okay. At one point I
compared to you because my I was doing scrubs and
my regulars on scrubs were I think I had six
to eight regulars scrubs and they're pretty much wearing scrubs

(36:02):
and office. I had how many regulars twenty? At the
point I had, let's just do the math for a second,
I had five thousand dollars less a week to spend
on the office that I had on scrubs many people,

(36:22):
and scrubs are not expensive, by the way, actual scrubs.
Oh my gosh. So yeah, so we so Jennifer Siri
and I. She was my supervisor back then, so that
position runs the department. Um, she and I would go
out to them what I was gonna say, called the

(36:42):
discount malls, out to the call thank you the outlet malls.
We would take two trips a season. We would do
this big drive out to Calabasas, out to the outlet
malls and we would just stalk up and I think
it was great too. Is that things there were like
a little bit a little dated a little bit last season.

(37:05):
I mean that was kind of my whole concept anyways,
for the overall show. It is just that it would
be a little dated looking because I feel like that
also lends a little vulnerability to it, like we're not
we're not super slick, and you know, we're in the latest, latest, greatest.
But yeah, so that's we would just come back with

(37:25):
carloads of stuff outlevel and then try to make it
work and try and and just rotate, rotate, rotate, you know,
mix and match, and we just what people do, right, Well,
that's what people do. Well. It's funny that you bring
up the dated concept, because you know, part of why
I talking to you now, and I've talked to so

(37:47):
many people, is really about why the show now, why
it's exploded, why we have more fans now than we
did when we were actually shooting. And you know, one
of the things that this is at least my theory
about it, a documentary by definition can't be dated, right

(38:09):
Like you you don't watch a documentary on the sixties
and be like, oh, that's dated, Like, no, it's about
the sixties. It's about that period of time. So you know,
not having the latest and greatest means that there is
never the latest and greatest that can look um that

(38:30):
that can look dated or like oh they were pretending,
or you know, that it gives anything beyond what it is.
Even I feel like this is true that even when
we were dressing up for a special occasion a wedding
or whatever, it was all sort of very classically nice outfits, right,

(38:50):
not like you know, the newest trend. Yeah, And and
I mean it really was about where I shopped. Like
that's the thing, Like I really I know Jenna, we
had a moment where she had had to wear jeans
for something, and she was and she you know, she
had done so many other everybody was doing movies and

(39:11):
all kinds of projects and getting all kinds of fancy clothes,
and she walked into that fitting and there was like
stuff from the Gap and stuff from the old Navy,
and and you know, she was used to wearing you know,
fancy fancy stuff that costs maybe two to four hundred dollars.
And she was like, oh oh, I was like, I know,

(39:33):
I know, I know, but we're holding the line. I
feel like that was I was like the I was
like the warrior holding the line. I'm like, we gotta
keep it real, like We've gotta it's it's what this
person would do, and and it informs, it informs how
you feel when you wear you know, if you if
you're all wearing that these super super genes, you're gonna strut.

(39:57):
And that's not that character. It's a say like the
shoes make a huge difference. You don't ever see shoes
on a TV show, but like it really makes a
big difference. I'm sorry Angela Kinsey because she had to wait,
she had to hear those nursing those spongy nurse shoes
all the time. But that it informs so much about
how you feel and how you act. That is so true.

(40:21):
I'm gonna tell you a little secret right now. I
this is this, this is probably crazy. This is definitely
actor nerdy. But if there were times, and there are
times on a on a television set, right, you come
in but you're not on camera for whatever reason. You
know you're there to do a scene with someone else,

(40:43):
but you shot your side before lunch and they're not
going to see you, and so you still need to
be there or whatever. I always put on my shoes, always, always,
when I'm playing a character, I always put on the
shoes of the character way years because that so I
have not just on the office, but on multiple projects.

(41:07):
You there will be there sure behind the scene photos
where I'm like wearing this wouldn't be the office, but
like fancy wing tips or something, and shorts like shorts,
like totally whatever. I wore into work in a hundred
degrees summer weather. But no, I would have I put
on the shoes because the shoe, it affects the way

(41:27):
you move away. Yeah, the way you stand. All of that. Absolutely,
I'm so proud of you. I'm so happy to hear
you say that, because it really does. It matters. I
don't go in full wardrobe. I'll be honest with you
about that. I don't do that. Um. So I want
to talk a little bit about you working with Steve,

(41:48):
you know, one, just working with him and helping to
create Michael Scott through the wardrobe, but also conversations that
you and he may have had between like Seasons one
and who when Greg was looking to to soften Michael
a little bit and to make him more likable, the

(42:08):
same guy, but but give a little bit of a
reason to maybe root for him. Is there any any
specific memories you have about that. Yeah, Actually I was.
I feel like I was at the forefront of the
synthesis of that because it was a real challenge, and
I remember feeling really anxious about because Ricky Gervais played
it so beautifully and his thing was like that tick

(42:32):
where he would touch his tie all the time. And
when we were first having conversations about this, and I
remember being in Greg's office and um looking at the
tapes of the original and there was a lot of
talk about like, well, we got to make the ceiling
tiles look like this, because that's how they had it there,
and and you know, kind of obsessing about like the

(42:55):
details of how are we going to make this be
like that show? And I remember thinking in my head like,
oh gosh, I can't do this. If that's if we're
going to try to copy this, I can't. I can't
do that. I'll go crazy trying to like figure out
the copy of these details. And so I really at
that moment sort I was like, all right, I gotta
find my own way. And yeah, with Steve's character, what

(43:18):
is it going to be? Is he going to be
the same as Ricky Shabaz? And I think in the
beginning he was kind of more hard And then I'll
never forget. I remember forty year Old Virgin came out,
and I'll never forget. Greg Daniels saw it and I
remember having a conversation with him and he was like, wow,
Steve is so vulnerable in that movie, and I was

(43:42):
like yeah, And it was almost like for Greg, I
feel like this moment of like really seeing Steve and
all that he could do, like all that he could
pull off as an actor, and I remember something like, yeah, yeah,
like he he can be vulnerable, Like that's there, that's

(44:02):
something we can we can drawn. And for me it
was and really for all the characters, for all the boys, um,
the tie story. The tie story was what was the
flavor of each guy? And I think it is for
guys like they go pick their tie and that you
ties us so much about you. But I feel like

(44:23):
Michael Scott in particular, like his ties. I feel like
he thought his ties really cool, but in reality they
were just kind of these muddy, undetailed, h kind of
static like they weren't they didn't have a particular voice
to them. And I was really dedicated to those damn ties.

(44:47):
Oh my god. I would go to the end ends
of the earth trying to fight. And I feel like that,
to me kind of like was his his special vulnerability
as a boss. Like he always felt like he needed
to be he needed to be something that he wasn't.
He's always trying to be so cool, like he's always
trying to be cool and one of the guys and

(45:08):
all this, you know, and um, it just wasn't him.
It just wasn't him. And so that's what that's what
makes him so wonderfully funny, is um trying to pull
off being somebody that he wasn't, you know. And if
he just if he could just like just chip out, dude,

(45:28):
like you don't need to be be this everything to everybody,
you know. Um, And yeah, so I think that's where
we found his character, and I think it really took off,
you know, because in the beginning to like the very
first episode is the exact same script from the from
the English version. It's the exact same script. And I

(45:50):
think that for the writers, I think got to you know.
I think they were like, we can't, I can't do
the exact same script. Like we have this amazing cast
of people of actors. They're bringing so much, you know.
And I think about like Creed and Meredith and you know, Kate,
like they were kind of these ancillary characters in the beginning,

(46:12):
and they brought so much. They brought so much, and
then they became these great, huge characters, you know. So, Um,
I'm a completely off topic here, but I feel like
things like we were trying to copy, trying to copy
the original, and then we realized that we have this
incredible gift of talent and ideas, and like that's where
it really just took off. Like that's where we started

(46:32):
writing our own scripts and the characters really started to gel.
And um, all these other ancillary characters became so strong
and such a delicious part of it. And here we
are still talking about it now. It's crazy. If I

(46:57):
could be you and you could be mean just one hour,
if you could find a way to get inside each
other's mind. Walk a mile in my shoes, wacome mile
in my shoes. Shoes. We've all felt left out, and
for some that feeling lasts more than a moment. We
can change that. Learn how it belonging begins with us

(47:19):
dot org. Brought to you by the AD Council. Welcome
out in my shoes. What were a few of your

(47:40):
favorite looks that you created? Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh,
well I do. I love Jim's three Whole Punch costume
that was amazing. And Angela's all Angela's little kitty chops
with a million buttons that we change all the buttons
into a little kitty head buttons. Gosh, I don't know,

(48:01):
I mean, there's so many. I mean I was thinking
about too, you know, the episode that we did out
in the park with the the sumo um costing, the
inflatable sumo costumes and then somebody was gonna float out
there out there. Oh my god, so many wacky things.
I mean, we went to we went to Ken Subornac

(48:22):
and that costume came up and we're like we're gonna
We're gonna float ed out on the lake in an
inflatable costume. And I'm like, I'm like raising my hand
like wait, wait, wait what. I don't want to be
in charge of this. I don't get that costume. But
that's not gonna that's no, that seems dangerous. And so
we actually went to Kent's house, his swimming pool, and

(48:45):
we had the stunt guy and I was like, here's
the thing. His body is inflatable, which will make his
head the heaviest part of it. His head's gonna go underwater, right,
which is exactly what happened. Yeah, you know it's like
stuff like this, like this is these are the challenges.
So anyways, like that's then I made a helmet that

(49:06):
if you look, the helmet is like this sumer, it
looks like hair, looks like a big yeah, but actually
it's a floatation device. Well, I mean, yeah, all those
things you don't see. I didn't know that. I didn't
know that. I had no idea you were you were

(49:28):
literally designing to save lives. But that should be that
should be the new costume guild like motto, we designed
to save lives. Carrie Bennett it's just all those challenges
that people don't realize that it's it encompasses a lot
like and that every single thing that every single person
wears is literally thought through, designed, doubled, died, altered. It's

(49:55):
a huge task. And um, it was a huge amount
of costumes. I remember the A D S the battle
plan that they had. Do you remember, like they would
meet you in the morning and they would have this
rainbow colored thing of where everyone was going to be.
You're gonna go into hair and makeup now, and you'll
go to costumes and do you know it was It

(50:16):
was such a tremendous undertaking every day because it wasn't
just like talking heads like you're talking to this person,
there's two people in the scene. No, it was the
entire cast in every scene, even if you're not talking,
you're in the background. It was a massive undertaking. Yeah,
I don't think we've talked about that enough. Actually on

(50:36):
this I may do a little deep dive into this
and figure out, like exactly how this came about, because
I think truly it innovated television production. I mean, I
don't know that there's even been a show that's been
as complicated or more. But I know that that other
shows are using it now. And what Carry is talking
about is the battle plan. You know, it was color

(50:59):
coordinated by character where you were going to be from
the moment you arrived until everybody had to be on set.
So in hair, in makeup, in you know, you need
a costume fitting this morning, so you have to go
to wardrobe, or you need to go see props, because
props there's a special something that you have to deal
with here or wherever else. And so it like took

(51:21):
you through the morning, whereas on most shows, you show up,
you go to hair and makeup, you go on your trailer,
you get dressed, and you're done because there's two, three,
four characters usually at the beginning of the day, and
they try to spread out people coming throughout the day.
That's part of what they do. But on our show,
you couldn't do that. Yeah, that was that was insane.
I mean that's true. I mean, looking back at it now, yeah,

(51:43):
I mean it was really really a team effort, like
I really felt like we were. It was like a
lot to accomplish every day, and we all just we
just did it. I mean I remember meeting with all
of the department heads production and offsite that we would
just like meet in the parking lot before the production
meeting and be like, Okay, I've got I'll take care

(52:06):
of this. You got this, you got that? What is
this going to be? Like that? You know, we would
just have like a quick little like you know like that.
That was like kind of like our little sort of
you know, valable. You know, the props guys have to
be on set with props, but they also have to
be in some cases either going to buy or create
or major in the props for the next week. And

(52:28):
have you had Phil on here? We we have not.
We have not talked to Phil. Oh god, okay, you
have to have him because he and I worked so
hand in hand and you know we had Again this
comes from like my sort of fear of getting it wrong. Um.
And this all started with when we had the fire
department came there was a fire department part Fire department

(52:52):
uniforms are really specific to regions, and I was like, oh,
I'm gonna I really need to get the patches that
go for Scranton. So I call the Chamber of Commerce
there and was like and got hold of this woman
called named Mari and maybe I shouldn't say her name,
but she was amazing, and I was like, you know,
I told her the whole story, and I was like,

(53:14):
do you think do you could you give me the
phone number for the fire department or do you think
somebody could go there and take a picture of the
patches for me? I mean, I just and she was like,
She's like, I'll do it. I'll go I'll go do it.
And she totally did it. She went to the bar department,

(53:36):
she took pictures of the patches, she sent them to me,
we recreated them. And then because she was so awesome,
I called her all the time. I was like, hey,
I mean, like a delivery service, is there's something? Is
there someone that you might know, or like a florist
that you might know, And then it just became a
regular thing. And then Phil started calling her, and then

(53:57):
she was like, lose my number was totally she was
so wonderful. I mean, if she's out there like I
don't of course I've lost track of her. She was amazing, um,
and then she set up I Phil would know it
was it maybe the third season. She was like, let's
preempt our needs here because we always needed like daily stuff,

(54:17):
like a delivery guy the radio station that you know,
just everyday things. She set up a thing that they
advertised on the radio station out there. Phil flew out
there and people came to the mall and offered up
there stuff from their businesses, like you know, t shirts
from the radio station or what just so the week

(54:38):
it could be super authentic and that they and then
they had to sign off that we were allowed to
use the thing. So he when I forget, I think
I was I couldn't go. I was I was doing scraps.
I think I couldn't go. But he went out there,
and and when he went, I was like, if you couldn't,
I gave him a little digital camera to take with him,
Like if you could take pictures of every person you talked,

(55:00):
do that would be the bomb. So he did that.
I mean there was lines of people out the mall.
He said. People followed him into the bathroom when he
went to the bathroom, and they were bringing all of
their stuff, and a lot of stuff wasn't necessarily needed
or useful, like people remember somebody brought cupcakes with everybody's

(55:20):
face on them. It was amazing. It was totally amazing.
So yeah, so I have all those photographs too that
you know, I would like take pictures of people in
uniform kids like just like and so I have I
have like my office catalog of people and it just
was like endlessly inspiring to me just for those little

(55:42):
little details. But yeah, when you watch the Office, like
a lot of those details are legit, legit Scranton artifacts. Well, listen,
if you need any more ammunition to have conversations when
people are like, what did you do on the Office?

(56:03):
How did you create? Like what they just wore suits?
Think about the number of times that the writers became
obsessed on our show with characters playing other characters, right,
so like famously Jim plays Dwight, but Kevin plays Phyllis,

(56:25):
and Dwight plays Kevin and Phyllis and like everybody basically
at some point and immediately you know who the characters
are because of what they're wearing. So I if you
need any more ammunition than that, you've got it. The
mustard shirts, the bad text, your jackets, the sweaters for Phyllis,

(56:51):
I guess, the sweaters, the little her little matchy matchy outfits,
matchy outfits and sweaters. Um, thank you, so much for
talking to me, Carrie. I appreciate it so much. I
mean the contribution that you have given everyone for the
helping to create these characters through their looks um which

(57:13):
now as we know Altars behavior is so it's so
important to the entire creation of the show. So thank
you one for that. And also thank you so much
for coming on and talking to me and everybody here today.
Oh I miss you so much. I'm realizing it's just
been such a delight to be with you again. Thank

(57:34):
you so much. Wow, Carrie, it's so amazing chatting with you.
Thank you so much for joining me now. As always,

(57:54):
I will be back next week with another conversation, this
time with the incredible Brian Whittle. What Who's Brian Whittle? Oh?
Isn't he a character on the Office? And to that,
I say, well, yes and no, there is a Brian

(58:14):
Widow character, but he was named after the real life
boom operator on the Office, and in true boom operator fashion,
Brian has all the stories. He was there with us
in the room where it happened. As they say, I
can't wait to bring the true Brian Whittle onto the

(58:36):
podcast next week. But before I leave you, I have
one more exciting announcement. We've discussed it before, but after
a couple more conversations here at the Office Deep Dive,
I am going to be launching my new podcast, Off
the Beat in February. Now, I don't want to give
too much away, but I'm very excited and it is

(58:57):
going to go beyond anything that we have done on here.
That's right. I am talking about all of your favorite
TV creators and actors, not just the Office, so stay tuned.
Will be available before you know it wherever you get
your podcasts. The Office Deep Dive is hosted and executive

(59:25):
produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Langley.
Our producers are Liz Hayes and Diego Tapia. Our theme
song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend Creed Bratton,
and the episode was mixed by seth Olandski m The

(01:00:03):
Gangster Chronicles podcast is a weekly conversation that revolves around
the underworld and criminals and entertainers to victims, crime and
law enforcement. We cover all facets of the game. Gainst
Chronicles podcast doesn't glorify promoti list of activities. We just
discussed the ramifications and repercussions of these activities because after all,
she played gamester games, you are ultimately rewarded with gangster prizes.

(01:00:25):
Our Heart Radio is number one for podcasts, but don't
take our award for it. Find Against the Chronicles podcast
and my Heart Radio app or wherever you get your
podcast