Jen Celotta - Pt. 2

The laughiest writer on The Office, Jen Celotta, is back and better than ever for part two of her conversation with Brian. Jen reminisces about the greatest love stories that ever were, the time she forgot she was filming a show and Steve had to remind her, and her work day on WebMD that turned into an episode.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Emilia on this podcast, I'm taking you on a search,
a search for love, hard working Latina, but there were
other reasons I felt like I couldn't always beat myself.
My mom's in prison. This Crumbs my love story. It's
a show about the things we set up for and

(00:20):
the bits of ourselves that make us who we are.
Listen to Crumbs on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts. Check out the new
podcast I Am Kobe. Do you want to understand how
Kobe Bryant achieved his unequal determination? How did he come
to his incredible passion to win? In I Am Kobe,

(00:42):
we reveal intimate, never before heard tapes of Kobe when
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glimpse his own greatness. It's about the making of an icon.
We weave together these tapes with Kobe's high school coaches,
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All epis sods a route now so you can binge
the whole thing. Listen to I Am Kobe on the

(01:04):
I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, and wherever you get
your podcasts. M Hey, Elizabeth you're the co host of
that new podcast, Ridiculous Crime. Why yes, I am. You
know what's ridiculous? Yeah, carpeting in kitchens and bathrooms? Oh wow,
you are good. But you know what's also ridiculous? A
sixteen year old who breaks into a car dealership and

(01:25):
steals guy theories Lamborghini, what yes to impress a girl.
I'll tell you all about it on Ridiculous Crime, our
podcast about absurd and outrageous capers, heist and cons. It's
always murder free and ridiculous. Listen to Ridiculous Crime on
the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts. I'm Jen Slada and I was a

(01:54):
writer on the Office. Oh she's back, everybody. Hello there,
Welcome to another fan freaking tastic installment of the Office

(02:14):
Deep Dive. As always, I'm your host, Brian Baumgartner, and
yeah she is back. Baby. The lafy ist writer from
our set, probably the lafiest person on this podcast, let's
be honest, the person who actually got welts in her
cheeks from trying to hold it in. That's what she said. Uh,

(02:39):
Jen Salata. If you haven't listened to part one of
our conversation. Do it? Okay, just go check that out first,
because today Jen and I circle back to talk about
what it was really like to be a writer on
the Office, how she started to blur reality from TV,

(02:59):
and how she helped write some of the most classic
love stories in modern history, from Michael and Holly The
Match Made in Heaven, to Dwight and Angela The Match
Made in No I don't know anyways, I love Jen.
Jen is was always an absolute delight to have on set.

(03:24):
And let me tell you, she has some stories. And
speaking of stories, seamless transition right there, we have a
place for you to see a bunch of stories, the
greatest stories ever. Right now you can pre order on Amazon.

(03:45):
It's called Welcome to dunder Mifflin, The Ultimate Oral History
of the Office. It comes out next week if you're
listening to this live ish. All right, So if you
love this podcast, if you love this show, I will
garn to you, well guarantee, I can garrolt you're gonna

(04:06):
love this book too. And well the other thing I
can guaranty, of course, is that you're going to love
the wonderful, the brilliant, the magnificent friend of mine that
is coming on right now, Jen Silata Bubble and Squeak.

(04:29):
I love Bubble and squeak on Bubble and Squeaker Cookie
every moment, lift over from the nut before. Where did

(04:50):
the idea behind getting Dwight and Angela together come from?
Oh my gosh, I would imagine it was something from
the O G Gang, the Greg or Mike or I
or Paul. I'm not sure. I just remember the idea
that the two of them were so strong and so specific,

(05:10):
and I think I couldn't see dwighte with anyone, and
it couldn't see Angela with anyone except wait a minute,
maybe you can't see either of them with anyone, except
maybe it was one of these, like two things that
have something in common. They would repel a lot of things,
but maybe not each other. So I think that there
was some fascination in terms of how un Jim and

(05:34):
Pam it was and how it could be played for
even more comedy, you know, just the comedy romance was
the exciting part of that for us. Of course, I
like the layers and levels, so would want a tiny
little bit of pathos in that, or just to see
the tiniest little undercurrent, not immediately, but of the two

(05:54):
of them going through something that they want, but the
comedy of them was I think the impetus for for
that and seeing wanting to see Dwight in a romance
and see her in a romance like that, just like
you don't want to look at exactly. Um, going back,
do you recall could you imagine that their wedding would

(06:16):
end up ending the show? I don't think I could
have known that. No, I mean I was hopeful for it,
but um, but I think what was cool about that
show and felt brave. I think there was a bravery
about Greg that is like, let's just go for it.
Let's just go for it and we'll see right. And
and in general, people would ask like, how much did

(06:38):
you know about the end of the season from where
you started at the beginning, and we would just carve
out thirteen because something could come up in that thirteen
that was so unexpected and delightful that we want to
follow that more, or something could not work for some
reason you don't know necessarily. I mean, I think there
was a lot of faith in Dwight and Angela, but
we always left ourselves open to how something could pop

(06:59):
or not pop. Or you know, but yeah, I don't
know that I would have thought ending the whole series
like I would have thought it was like, you know,
it's still I don't even think I would have known
we were going that many years. I mean, it's just
like I was so excited. I certainly hoped so, But um,
why do you think the fans responded so much to
Jim and Pam? God, I think they're so gifted that

(07:25):
I feel like it was the right storyline with the
right two actors. There was like a chemistry and a
dynamic between the two of them. One of my favorite
things I got to do with them was the Jinx
episode where they didn't speak. I couldn't believe the moments
I was getting where you know, there's a moment where Pam,
you know, says, Oh, what are you going to tell
me something? Oh, you can't tell me something? And he

(07:47):
wanted to say that he liked her, right, but he's
now has to be silent. But she says, what is
there something you want to tell me that you can't
And he looks just like his stomach drops and he
turns white, and he looks down and then you see
her see that he did that and know what that means.
They were so incredibly gifted, as like they could be
silent film stars. I really feel like the dynamic between

(08:09):
the two of them, But I also think it was
Greg's thing. And I keep kind of saying this kind
of thing in different ways of like the beauty, the
pop of beauty and the gray, like having an episode
that's not about them or is about you know, you
guys are Dwight or Michael, and then having this little
pop of Jim and Pam not overdoing it when it
felt like it was doing stuff when it wasn't even

(08:30):
doing stuff. Just seeing that Jim and Pam were in
the background of a scene where you're like, they like
each other but they're not getting together was this thing
that I feel like fans were rooting force. You could
have go to this anybody in this ensemble and give
them a fantastic storyline and still feel the yearning between
the two of the you know what I mean, it's
like and it will because it wasn't accelerated so quickly.

(08:54):
The best things were things we had to reach for,
and the fact that they weren't front and center, the
fact that the pressure wasn't on them made us want to.
I don't know, just made us enjoy it. Yeah, So
when Holly is brought in, do you remember any conversation
about where Michael ends his journey on the show being

(09:15):
with her or was this just a limited thing. I
can't quite remember what we've said about like ending the show.
I just remember all the discussions about Jan and whether
or not to evolve him and Holly. The decision of
Holly came out of the decision to evolve Michael's character
passed Jan and to a point where he was finding
a peer. So we wanted somebody who was a peer relationship.

(09:39):
And it didn't necessarily I mean, in my mind and
have to be that it would be her and her forever,
but that she would be the first person that you know,
was really appear for him and that he evolved. Michael
would have picked. So if we wrote the character right
and if it worked out, if she left him or
if he left her, that he to be devastated, that

(10:01):
it would be a real peer relationship, and then the
consequences of a real pure relationship. The fact that she
was so fantastic and then we got to keep her
around and keep using her is in our biggest dreams.
She would be she would be Michael's person. I remember
when we wrote the first episode that she was in
Paul and I and Paul had the first half and
I had the second half and Paul all that Yoda

(10:21):
stuff was just pure Paul, just genius. I read it
and I was like, Holy sh it, this is fantastic
because she's Michael, but she's different enough, and it was
sort of like, how do we get somebody that is
appear for him, that adores him. Um, that is goofy
but also like him. You just want you love her,

(10:42):
you feel her, you she's so sweet and you just
you know, you're excited for her and um, so the
dynamic between the two of them, I thought was phenomenal.
So so as soon as we saw that, it was
an instant yes, this is this is gonna work because
you can think about it and you can write that
he's going to have somebody that's kind of a little
bit more involved. But I think as soon as we

(11:03):
saw that, we just fell in love with them right
right in your head at first, and you're like, is
this going to work? Like what if we evolved him
past Jan and we write this character of Holly, you
know this is before nose any and everything, and then
what if it's just boring and it's not funny and
it doesn't work. So there was stakes on this of like, oh,
like how do we do this? And um, thank god

(11:24):
Paul wrote those Yoda scenes like you yeah, thank god. Um.
Rain and I got into a conversation where I, well,
what I said to him was that I consider Dwight
and Michael to be one of the greatest comedy duos

(11:49):
of all times. Where do you feel like they fit
in in terms of sort of the legacy of comedy duos? Oh,
I agree completely. I think they were just one of
the best. Are up there with the right. I think
their abilities individually and then bouncing off of each other.
They were so specific in Dwight's wanting to be more

(12:11):
than he is in Michael's eye, I mean, I'm thinking
of drug testing. When Michael asked for Dwight's here in
it's like the ultimate ask is like going against his
ethics and responsibilities as a sheriff. But then this is
Michael asking him, and then they're both just so crazy gifted.
I mean, there were times where I just had to
leave the room, like I couldn't. I was gonna laugh
and I was going to ruin a take, so I

(12:32):
had to. I had to get out of there, Like
you were maybe the laughiest writer. No, I was so bad.
It was so bad. Yeah, you funny? How am I?
Like you put any human being in a situation with
you guys in that area in a bullpen, and like
what are you supposed to do? Like how do you
not laugh? Like I was biting my cheek at times,
Like I would go home and like I'd have a

(12:54):
little like welts and stuff I had. I had a trick?
Was your trick to help me this? Then? No? I had,
I had a trick at times. I mean it was
just mostly. And it's funny because where I really remember
you laughing, as in the Talking Heads again, where your
well in that same room in the conference room. That
was where it was the most difficult, because somehow you

(13:15):
felt trapped. You couldn't turn around, you couldn't turn to
the side, like you couldn't find a poll to hide behind,
like there was sort of nothing to be done. So
I said, your index finger and my thumb, I would
take that and I would bury my fingernail into the
side of my thumb, and it was just trying to

(13:35):
just think about that small amount of pain that was
there and not Steve being prison Mike or whatever it
was Ine just not doing that. There was one moment
with Rain where Greg and I were there. I don't
remember who was writing and directing. I think he was
directing and I was the writer, and we were sitting
there across from Greg, and I think Matt Soone is
there and Dwight is talking and he's doing a talking head.

(13:58):
I cannot remember the topic. But Greg leaps, he leaps.
He can't be in the room, so he leaves, and
he's like outside of the stage even and then I
move and sit in his chair so you can have eyeline,
and then I leave. I can't do it. I leave,
And so basically Rain is sitting there and being like,
is that okay? Did anyone see that? Is it? Okay?
Can move on, like nobody's there. But it happened with you.

(14:20):
I remember happening with you several times. And what happened
with you is that just you could see your brain work,
you can see yourself thinking, and there were just moments
where I knew what was coming up, or I knew
what was going to happen, and it's just this delightful
journey of you getting to what you were going to say.
And I was like, I'm not gonna I'm gonna lose
my ship, and so I would bite my cheek but

(14:41):
half the time and let's just lose it. It was
like an exposure psychology for my laughing. Yes, Gregg talked
about the cast too, so I'm not just Michael and Dwight,
but you know, the accountant's corner, but Dwight and Jim
as well, and it really everybody fit together like a puzzle. Yeah. God,

(15:01):
it was such a gift. I mean to come in.
I came in after the casting process obviously, and I
was just so impressed with all of you guys. It
was phenomenal, just like so strong, such good comic actors,
but also so specific in terms of your characters. It
felt like you guys were living in those characters you were.
You were just so true to them so that you
could be delighted when you know, Angela would come over

(15:24):
and ask you to do something. It was just you
were amused already because you just knew that. Like, you
guys were so dialed in and you were just going
to knock it out of the park. What do you
think makes Michael a great leading man? I think that
he cares so much about the people that he works with.

(15:47):
It's his family. He doesn't have a family outside of that,
so it's very important that things go well and he's
rooting for them. But at the same time, he is
so uh different in the way of approaches everything. I
think the contrast between caring so much and liking the
people that he works with and loving them and wanting

(16:08):
them to do well, and yet not having the ability
that he should have as a manager at all, like
that tension is fascinating to me. I think you asked
about Michael, but I think Steve is such a genius.
You know, we could get away with more because he
was so gifted. We could push because he could he

(16:29):
could have that undercurrent of humanity and where it's coming
from underneath the broadest thing. I mean, certainly there were lines,
but we could push that so far and still have
it read true. And I remember, you know, seeing first
season of The Office, seeing four year old virgin and
then I was just like, Oh, there's nothing this man

(16:50):
can't do. I mean, he would do do takes completely differently,
give you all these different sides of things and sides
of him. I just felt for him, felt for him
enormously because he could do the sillier joke ere thing,
but there always was the truth and the reality that
was grounding it. I always felt where he was coming from.
I always felt like he wanted to connect or didn't

(17:12):
want to disappoint or you know, like I don't know.
He's just extraordinary. So it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous because you
can have you laugh and then in a in another
moment you can just cry, and he can just turn there.
There was a moment and I don't remember, I think
I was I wrote it and I wasn't directing, but

(17:33):
I was on set and he was doing a scene
with Holly and they were having this kind of intimate
scene and then they started laughing about something and I
started laughing, and he Steve turned to me. I think
this is on the blooper reel. Actually he turned to
me and I was like, oh my god, I'm sorry.
He's like, we're acting here, Like he just was laughing,

(17:54):
but he was laughing. They were laughing so real, which
is of course what acting is. But like I was like, oh,
they broke because it's just just just feels too real.
And so there were just moments with him where I like,
I couldn't I just couldn't tell, you know, because it
was just so true. Yeah. I haven't asked anybody this,
but it just occurring to me. Do you do you
think that there was because of Steve's ability to improvise?

(18:20):
Did you feel like the words that the writers were
writing were less precious on this show than anywhere else
or did that game not change I personally, I feel
like they weren't so precious. I think, especially with him.
Everybody was so talented on the show, but Steve had

(18:42):
an ability to understand so much the subtext of all
the text that I felt like changing things up or
adding something always. I mean, I think of Oscar kissing
Oscar and Gay witch Hunt. It was like the best moment,
one of the best moments of the whole show, and
it's just you knew it was on story, it was
on theme, and it was funnier than what was scripted.

(19:04):
So I felt like he had great respect for the text,
but he had this ridiculous ability to understand everything in
such depth that if he was going to change things up.
It was always going to honor the intention. Yeah, I've
been asking people who was the greater loss, Michael or Steve. Oh, Steve.

(19:34):
I mean I wasn't there, but I just feel like
everybody saw what genius he was with the Michael Scott character,
but getting to see him outside of that and how
you know, good he was with everybody else. I mean
we'd have like I remember, we had an actor come
into was very young and very new, and Steve just
working with his performance and dialing in different directions so

(19:57):
that he could help this person get up to that level,
you know, And there were so many kind hearted things
he did that Like, you know, Michael Scott was brilliant,
but to know that that's who he's playing with any
steps out of that role and just as a human
was just such a good man. I have to say, Steve,

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(23:11):
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(24:01):
episodes are available now. Listen on the I Heart radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Did you

(24:21):
ever think of Greg as a teacher? M I feel
like I learned an enormous amount from Greg. I'm trying
to think of the thing my greatest takeaways from being
with Greg. I had been writing for a while by
the time I was working with Greg, and so I
think that even though there were writing things to learn,

(24:44):
I think I learned a lot of things about leadership
that I really was kind of focused on or thinking about.
He was phenomenally good at story and so many things.
So I learned from just being around him about how
he approaches and how he attacks things. But I'm just
going to try to think about the things now. I'm
my brain sort of thinking about it live. I have
a little bit of a d D if you haven't
noticed that. One thing is he had this idea about

(25:08):
blue skying where he would say, let's think about their
ideas in this area, and we would think about it,
and we would just think about throw out ideas, throw
out ideas. Even when we had great or even excellent ideas,
He's like, keep going. So the amount of times we
had something that was great and he would come in
and challenge and test and want to take it and

(25:28):
shake it and turn it upside down. Every time we
did that, we came up with something better. It wasn't lateral,
it wasn't worse. It wasn't that we should have stayed
with that first thing. It was better. So the fact
that he hired people that were so animated and passionate,
and he wasn't scared of somebody who would constantly challenge him,
you know, like he wanted to have people who would

(25:49):
fight him on stuff in the room. He wanted wherever
the idea came from, that was best. He just wanted
that idea in there. It did not have to be
his idea. And I've worked with show runners who are brilliant,
but it had to be their stamp had to be
on something. But to his credit, he uh got a
group of people that all thought differently and that we're

(26:09):
going to fight in the room about things that matter
to them. They all gave a ship and they all fought.
And I've been fortunate enough to work with a bunch
of different people, and I sort of divided everybody into
all the showrunners I've worked with into I. Basically I
told Greg this. I said, they're all control freaks because
you have to be some level of, you know, really
caring and being very meticulous about what you put out

(26:30):
into the world. But I think there are control freaks
with egos and control freaks without egos. And the difference
between creating a show with that kind of vibe where
you have somebody very smart, filtering everything and deciding it,
but wants to hear everything and wants to be challenged
and if he doesn't agree with you, I'm gonna come

(26:50):
back and say it three more times, you know what
I mean? Like there's I with the no sound of
the proposal. I I just was beating that drum for
weeks because it meant that much to me. But um
steaks and escalation and surprise and all those things he's
such a master at and some of those, um, either
I relearned or learned a Greg way of doing things

(27:11):
that was phenomenal. But I kept thinking about leadership when
I was working with him. So interesting, So other than
blue sky. If there's anything else specifically about the work
in the writer's room or because stores like a beautiful
mind in there, I don't if anyone's told you that
note cards everywhere, thousands and thousands of note cards, fragments,
pieces of cards, pieces of stories, character, um things. You'd

(27:32):
look at a card and you were like, I have
no idea what this card means. Like you have to
try to remember, um, candy bags, you know, like I
didn't know candy bags before the office, which was we
would have, you know, a thirty five forty page scripts
sometimes and eventually it would be twenty minutes or twenty
one minutes. And then additionally we would have sometimes a
sixty or eighty page joke bag. So like for every

(27:53):
talking head of of yours, we'd have ten additional talking
heads if we had the time and you know, we
could get to um, we'd have alternate jokes for scenes. Um, yeah,
I think that them trying to think of other Greg
things that were specific. I could tell a story if
you want about Greg and I trying to write a
script together. Um should I wonder if I should say that.

(28:16):
I think you'd be fine with this. But I had
to write an episode with Greg at one point. I mean,
I'd love to write an episode, but like we both
usually wrote alone, and then we were going to try
and write together. And my process at the beginning of
writing is a lot of procrastinating and just like procrastinating
and then panic and then writing. Um So I remember
we sat down to write and both of us seemed

(28:38):
like we were just sort of like it's one of
those writer things where you just make sure the temperature
is exactly right, you have all the pencils exactly sharpened.
Should we order to lunch, maybe we should order launch
or should we you know, go for a walk, like
makes more sure. You know, you're just kind of avoiding
getting to it because it's hard. It's wonderful, but it's hard.
And um, I think at that moment he he was
having some sort of I don't remember back thing or

(29:00):
shoulder thing, and I was having an ear problem, and
so like we looked up I think on web MD,
like what was going on with my ear? And like
I think we He got me to put some like
olive oil from the kitchen in my ear because I
was like, I think that this will help. And we're
sitting there and we're on web m D and we're
just not starting. We're not starting. We're just diagnosing what's

(29:21):
wrong with my ear and what's wrong with this back,
and we're spending a lot of time doing this, and
eventually we just like he's like, I'm gonna write Act one.
You go right, Actually like where we can't. We cannot
sit together and do this because it's like taking the
individual traits of this and and exponentially magnifying it. But
we turned it into a Michael and Dwight. Uh they're
on web m D and Dwight is like, point to

(29:43):
your body where it hurts, and he doesn't. It's like
something's wrong with your uterus or your ovaries like anyway,
So very often what was happening in our lives became
in office episode. So that was me actually writing a
script with the genius Gregg. But seeing that writers are
all the same when they're we can avoid for a
little bit starting hard stuff that's amazing. That sounds like

(30:07):
so both for you too. UM. So when Greg left
season five, you and Paul are showrunners, Yes, So what
how did he go about asking you? Oh my gosh,
I can't. UM. I kind of want to tell you
another story, but it's going to be circular again, it
doesn't matter, Okay, I want to tell you another story
and then we'll go back and then you can just

(30:28):
plice place it in. UM. I told Greg this, and
I think he he doesn't remember this or he denies this,
But early on Greg asked Mike and Paul and I
to sort of be UM, I'm terrible at military things, lieutenants.
Is that like a person like underneath the case he's
the captain, like okay, so we were going to kind
of be underneath him and take over some responsibilities, you know.

(30:48):
So he said we were going to be meeting like
once a week, and we were just talking about certain
things and like maybe divide up like you know. Mike
was going to be responsible for some things and Paul
and I and then ultimately we report back to Greg.
Greg would be in charge, but everything he was just
get some help. And I remember he gave a memo, UM,
and it was kind of like, Okay, we're gonna meet
every Monday in UM in this room here, and it's

(31:10):
going to be from you know, nine o'clock to ten o'clock.
And I think there was like one rule, and the
rule was something like say things if you can, and
like the quickest amount of time that you can say that.
There was something like that. It was very polite, and
it was very It was like, okay, it was basically
like kind of try to stay on track. And then
I'm like thinking about it, and I'm like, Mike is
very sustainct. He likes to talk, but he's very sustanct

(31:32):
and he says everything. And Paul doesn't talk that much.
And I was like, this memo was telling me not
to talk so much. Now, this is not Greg trying
to quiet you know, a writer, because Greg like always
but I talked a lot. I really was like, this
is like him saying, you know, try to try to
be careful and how you pick what you're saying and like,

(31:54):
hey can get down to the things that are important.
So the takeaway needs to not be Greg was trying
to even more that I talked a whole hell of
a lot. So it's like you wrote that memo for me.
There's no we knew what room to be and we
knew what time it was. This was a memo to say,
stopped talking all the time. He's like, I don't think
I did that anyway. So, so Paul and I had

(32:17):
some responsibilities and we had been for some things. Yeah,
you and Mike and Paul had had some responsibilities and
responsibility leading into this, so we would start to run rooms.
So I just think that. Um, I don't remember actually
him like the day that he asked us, but I
remember being very excited, you know, like I was nervous.
Of course, I wanted to do a good job, and

(32:39):
we felt an enormous amount of responsibility. But I also
felt like he wasn't like, you know, get on a
boat and leave me. Wouldn't be able to contact him
and he would, you know, help us to navigate this
and we'd be able to ask questions. Um, do you
remember anything about you know, you're running the show now
and NBC. I understand there was some pressure about bringing
in some A list star for the super Bowl episode.

(33:02):
Do you remember anything about that? Yeah? I remember. I
always feel like you just don't want to be taken
out of the moment of the show, and I sort
of remember, for the first time, I feel like NBC
was so good and they gave such good notes, and
I felt like they just really trusted Greg and they
trusted the writers and the actors certainly, but I do

(33:23):
feel like the Super Bowl put pressure on the powers
that be so that it was a little bit of
I remember hearing this, and it could be incorrect, but
this is how I remember hearing that. The goal was
to write an Office episode that all of the fans
who already fans of The Office would know and love
because it's their favorite show, and we're going to just

(33:44):
write a typical Office episode. However, at the same time,
an Office episode that's not like an Office episode, so
that we can get new fans in. Like so, I
was like, these two things contradict each other. There's no
way to do this, and I think that became one
of our hardest stories to break, because we came up
with other stories and ended up throwing out more stories

(34:06):
on the way to that final story than any other episode,
because we were trying to appease to our fans and
also maybe broaden it a little bit more to get
new fans who needed to have something some bells and
whistles of some other kind to then get them in
and then we'll still be the same office. But so
I think the idea to put the celebrities in a

(34:28):
movie was a better idea of how to handle that.
But I think I remember pushing back on the celebrity
thing because I never like when something bigger comes into
our world. Are you proud of your your year show running?
I am? I am. I am proud of it. I
feel like we did a good job. I don't know
if I could be the one to judge it, but um,

(34:50):
but I'm particularly proud in the Michael Scott Paper Company
because it was kind of towards the end of the
year and we were tired, you know, and it was
a fun thing to do, and it was a little
bit of a risk and not a huge risk because
we had, you know, three of our characters going off,
but you know, it was hard but very very rewarding,

(35:11):
and I feel like, yeah, it was one of my
favorite years. So you go from being a writer to
being a lieutenant to being a co showrunner and then
you started directing. How was that for you to be
on set and directing Crime Made was the first episode.
CDE was the first one. And this is um I
don't know if you know this, but on Beach Games,

(35:32):
which was just a crazy episode, like a forty two
page script, it was an now maybe longer actually two
quick tell you two quick things. One was that there
was just so much to do and we didn't have
the time. I think it was one of Ed Helms's
first episodes. Two I can't remember when he joined the cast,
and not overly that long after he joined Scranton. First.

(35:53):
I remember we were going to put him in a
sumo suit and we were going to pull him out
in the middle of the lake, and I remember I
had to go. There was so much chaos that he
was like in hair and makeup or something. I don't
remember what it was. But he missed the safety meaning
and he like he mad, you know, maybe he was briefed.
I'll say, you know he was briefed on it. But
I remember very specifically hearing that there were water snakes

(36:14):
and where not to tell him, and I don't think
I did. I was like, I was like, I think
they're near the edges. I didn't want that to be
in his head. I didn't want to be scared on
top of it. So I'm sorry if I know that.
Somebody didn't supposedly briefed him, but I didn't hear them
say the water snakes part. I was like, I don't
know what to do here, because if I I would
not want to know that. But I think but that

(36:38):
was a moment from beach James. But it was I
think it was because of the chaos that there was
a lot happening at once, and so I ended up
at one point Kent called and we we had to stop.
We had to stop. It was like we went over
and then we went over again, and we went over again,
and we have like forty five seconds to get this
scene right. And he calls me and he's like he's upset.

(37:01):
I understand it's he's got to get the scene. And
I make this decision of like I can either explain
to you why I don't have time to talk to
you right now and how if you let me have
this forty five seconds we will get everything and we
will stop, or I can go do it. So I
just like quietly he's like talking kind of loudly. I
just put the phone on a chair and to like,
let's go and then we get it, and we got it.

(37:22):
So I was like, it was one of those moments
where I was like, we won't get it if, you know,
keep having a discussion about how you want to get it.
And it wasn't as follow He's upset and it was
the last minute. But during that in the very last
day of shooting, there was just so much and we
had a lot of things kind of spill over because
it's just a huge episode. There was one moment where
Harold Ramos said to me, you go do the people,

(37:43):
I'll do the tech stuff for this scene, like we
divide it up. As a showrunner or whatever. I was
able to kind of communicate with you anyway, but normally
on a set as the director that speaks, you know,
so he was like, go kind of communicate what you
want and what's in the scene, and I'll kind of
work on the camera stuff. So I guess he had
mentioned and this is more about Harold Ramus just being

(38:03):
incredibly generous than about my abilities. I can swear to
you that at the time, but he had mentioned Greg
that maybe I should be directing. So Greg had asked
me if I wanted to do it, and I was like, oh,
a thousand percent. Yes. I was super nervous when I
first started directing. Um. I remember Ed or somebody else
I think it was Ed had said, you know, fake

(38:24):
it till you make it like it's advice in them,
you know. And I was like, I can't fake it,
and fake it just gonna look like I don't know
what I'm doing. So I just researched and studied and
tried to knew that you guys were phenomenal and nobody
was gonna make me look bad because if I just
screwed something up, you guys would elevate it. No one
would notice. Well I don't know about that. Somebody would have,

(38:45):
maybe not us, but yet Hey, it's de Lipa. I'm
here to tell you about my brand new podcast, Do
Reliper at your service. I'll be sitting down with the

(39:05):
world's most inspiring minds to uncover what makes them tick,
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life has thrown at them. We're going deep with people
revolutionizing not just their own industries, but also culture more broadly.
From least today, the author redefining what it means to
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(39:29):
You'll even hear me break bread with some of the
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a lot of betrayals, It's turned out to be the
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can't wait to share all of this and more with you.
Listen to do Reliper at your service on the I
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

(40:00):
Adoption of teens from foster care is a topic not
enough people know about, and we're here to change that.
I'm April Dinuit, the host of the new podcast Navigating Adoption,
presented by adopt us Kids. Each episode brings you compelling,
real life adoption stories told by the families that lived them,
with commentary from experts. Visit adopt us Kids dot org,
slash podcast, or subscribe to Navigating Adoption presented by adopt

(40:24):
Us Kids, brought to you by the U. S Department
of Health, that Human Services Administration for Children and Families,
and the Act Council m HI I'm Elizabeth Dutton and
I'm Elizabeth Dutton. Wait, sorry, Zaron, do you want to
say your name? No, I'm good, good, go ahead. We're
the hosts of Ridiculous Crime. People love true crime, right,
the mystery, the intrigue, the human frailty totally. But what

(40:46):
a lot of us don't like is the blood and
the guts and the mayhem. Wait wait, wait, wait, some
of us do like the mayhem. Okay, but let's be real,
there's nothing funny about murder. Our show gives you stories
like the kidnapping of Frank Sinatra Jr. And the Max
Dreams signal hijacking. Oh so you mean ridiculous stories like
the UK cat Shaver and Pablo Escobar's cocaine hippos. Yeah,

(41:07):
stories like the dudes who stole Buzzy, the animatronic whatever
he was from Disney World, and the woman whose husband
tried to kill her but came back from the dead
and surprised him at her own funeral. Yeah, that does
sound good. You can find this new podcast, Ridiculous Crime
all over the place, the I Heart Radio app, the
Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. I don't
know how you live ridiculous crime. Okay, So then after

(41:41):
season five, you and Paul are both in charge and
you decide to to take a step back. Why did
you decide to do that? So, this is such a
hard thing to explain because it was my favorite job ever.
I felt so lucky, I said, felt so blessed to
be on that staff. It was the show that most
mashed my sensibilities. Like I felt like I won the lottery,
really really did. I think what happened? And I don't

(42:02):
know if it was because we were doing so many
episodes a year, but I just started to get a
little bit, like it's a weird thing to say, because
the show was, you know, phenomenal, but I started to
get a little bit bored in that, Like I wasn't
able to think in the same way and come up
with the same kind of stories and characters and moments.
And it got harder. And I think part of me too.

(42:23):
There was something pushing me more and more and more
to write original material, to be challenged to throw myself
off the deep end and have to create a world
of my own. You know, I really just also wanted
to I wanted to be able to bring my a
game and I felt like, I think I wanted a
little bit of a new challenge, but it was an
incredibly difficult position, and um, I wonder if I can

(42:47):
tell the story. I'm gonna tell it, and then I
can just always ask him it's okay to say about whatever.
I decided I was going to leave and it was
incredibly difficult. Um, And I told Jean, I said, you know,
I'm gonna end up telling Greig that I'm going to leave,
and like it was, you know, difficult for me, you
know whatever, But I just said, don't say anything. So
I'm gonna I'm gonna do it, you know, But I

(43:08):
just want to let you know. I don't know why.
I just felt an affinity to those guys. And Jeane
laughed and he taught me a lesson I keep to
this day. He laughed and he said, I think it's
funny that you think I'm thinking of anything other than
myself at any given moment. Like, I'm not gonna tell him.
And I went up to tell Greg, and this was
a Friday, and I was like, I'm just gonna get

(43:30):
it over with and I go to the I'll go
to his office and I start crying, like on the
way to his office, and I was like, not today.
Ladies don't cry at work, which I have cred at work,
but I was like, so I just turned around and
I couldn't tell him, and then I told him then
on Monday, but I was just in greaz It was
that painful. I just felt like I wanted a new challenge.
I loved everybody so much though that it was such

(43:51):
a difficult decision, and I just felt like, um, yeah, yeah,
I remember you telling me one at I don't know why,
but I just remember thinking, oh, well, that's a real loss.
Thank you for saying that. I it was really really

(44:11):
hard for me. I loved you guys. I mean I
just loved you. And it was awkward for me too
because I felt like it was a hard thing to
explain because I didn't know how to say it, because
I didn't think the two things matched up. This was
the best job I ever had. It was the most
aligned with what I love to do. I love the
cast more than any other cast I've been with. I

(44:31):
love the writers, and so I was frustrating myself for
a while, and I spent some months trying to decide
it because I was like, what's wrong with my brain
that I can't. I mean literally, I just like I
just start being frustrated in myself of like, you know,
what the hell? But I think it was just wanting
at that point, and I had done other shows I

(44:52):
started at I started on Home Improvement, I came up
with whatever Wilson said, you know, like a lot of
the Wilson stuff in his backyard. So I've been writing
for a time and I think I wasn't necessarily brave
enough to go out and try to write things of
my own. And I think the Office. In fact, just
remembering this right now, when I was telling Greg this,

(45:13):
I felt like I was brave enough and confident enough
to go off and do my own things because of
my experience on the Office. And He's like, I did
this to you. I created this, I created you wanted
to leave. I was like, so, yeah, it was a difficult.
It was really difficult for me. Um, why do you think, well,

(45:37):
the show is bigger now in pop culture than it
ever was when it was airing on NBC on Thursday nights.
Why do you think people are connecting to it like
they haven't or not that they haven't, but why has
it become such a phenomenon. Well, um, maybe the part
A is to just compliment it. But I'm just I

(46:00):
just think Greg and you guys and you know, everybody
created such a kind of almost timeless comedy show where
it's like you very much relate to the people and
there's such heart and it was well written. The actors
everybody brought such comedy and some pathos and everything to it.
So I think that it's one of those like lightning

(46:21):
in a bottle things where everything coalesced at the right
all together to create this thing. And then I think
people don't sit down to watch TV at a certain
time on a certain night. It's like people want to
have it when they want to have it. They want
to like I think I read Billie Eilish has watched
every episode eleven times and she said that she has
it on the in the background sometimes when she's just

(46:43):
in her tour bus like other things to do. Like,
I feel like there's something kind of comforting about at
the relationships that you relate to and that there's it's
so real, but you want to be able to put
it on when you want to put it on, and
especially younger people so that they just can you know,
watch it whenever they want to digest it and want
chip and so I also think that there's something happening

(47:03):
right now where everybody is so fragment and everybody is
so divided. There's a comfort that comes, which is weird
because I think it is subversive and it is crazy,
but there's a comfort that it's like, I know these people,
They're like me, I know these people. I feel safe
here instead of like, you know, whatevers, go else is
going on around you. You can kind of retreat into
that in a weird way. I felt that way when

(47:24):
the Mr. Rogers movie. I was like, oh God, just
come hug me and Mr Rodgers again and again. And
there's like a weird thing which is subversive and it
you know, but I do think that you feel like
you know them, you feel like they're family, and then
it makes you feel you can kind of disappear with
them and stay with them for a while. It's not

(47:44):
a one off and you care about all you guys
who cared about the characters. Right, What are you most
thankful for in your experience on the show Getting to
be a part of it, I mean really just getting
to be there. Um, I I would say overall, just
being a part of it, getting to be in that

(48:05):
writer's room and getting to work with you guys, getting
to work with the actors. Um, it made me realize
what is possible and what at the best something could be. Yeah,
I just feel so. I feel so lucky and grateful.
On on a on a smaller note, I think, you
know I was talking about Greg and him being brave.
I also think that he hired people that he believed in,

(48:29):
but he also trusted them, and so there were some moments.
There was a moment that really helped me and this
is actually what I was referencing when I was leaving
the show. Um, there was a moment with grief counseling
actually where Greg got it and Steve got it and
I got it. But it was a hard episode to
put flags on and say this is what's happening to

(48:50):
the character because it was so internal, and I think
we had some notes of like, make sure the audience
understands what's happening. And I knew Steve did, I knew
Greg didn't. I know I did, But are people going
to be a little confused with this? Are they not? So?
Greg went through my episode and was maybe trying to
put little signposts that if we needed them, great, they're there.

(49:12):
If not, we'll pull him out in editing, and he
was trying to sort of navigate this and I had
written it in a way that it was difficult to
do that. So after about six or eight hours for
Better for Wars, I don't think it was all like
beautifully written in a way that was intractable, but like
I think that it was. Everything depended on the last thing.
He was one of those where it was like he

(49:33):
was literally going through all the stages of grief. And
Greg at one point came to me and said, I
want you to go into your office. I want you
to think about anything that we did to try to
put the signposts in, or any jokes that you know
we came up with that we should add or not
odd or whatever whatever, and I want you to figure

(49:53):
out what do you want it to be? What do
you not wanted to be one of those things do
you want? And then we're going to shoot whatever you
come out of your office with. And And that moment
was like there was such faith and such trust and
that gave me such a huge lift. I mean in
my career in my own confidence level, and that actually

(50:14):
I referenced when I was leaving. He's like, wait a minute,
I caused this, But I think that personally, professionally writer wise,
that meant a lot to me because I had been
on staffs of shows where someone didn't get my sensibility,
get my sense of humor, or you spend a lot
of time trying to get something in someone else's voice

(50:35):
that you don't believe in as much. So I felt
very grateful. But the quick answer is I felt very
grateful to be at the party. Well, you've said a
number of times that their connection to us, but the
characters are creation by the actors in conjunction with the writers.

(50:55):
And your contribution to the show and your your leadership
throughout multi of both seasons, but you leading it in
one is huge. Well thank you. I just thank you.
I felt so lucky to be there. Yeah, thank you,
thank you so much for coming in. Oh I hope
so I took you longer then I should have. I

(51:20):
didn't even talk about that. Can I tell you one
quick thing? Oh yes, I literally got talked to ones
about it, not not in a like, but like Shure
and Greg were like, could you be a tiny bit
more selective in the amount of times you say, that's
what she said. But that just made in the room
as a as a person, because constantly I so greg
ended up thinking that there were two parts of my brain,

(51:42):
one that was thinking of comedy and story and the
other one was just trolling for that's what she said.
Set up. So what they did is they just made
me more clever about it. Like I would have scenarios
where like five people involved with it and it would
be like three levels of dialogue deep, and then I'd
be like, that's what she said. So it just made
my brain work harder. But I spent a lot of
time up in the writer's room saying that's what she said,

(52:04):
because I would constantly hear that set up. Who came
up with it? B J brought it into the show. Um,
I think it was something that pre existed and then
he brought up brought it into the show. But it
was definitely b J. But I have been credited for
it only because I said so many times that people
are like, what the fuck? Yeah, no, b J brought

(52:25):
it up, but I took it in right, Um, okay,
thank you? What did I tell you? Oh? Jen is

(52:51):
the absolute best. Thanks for joining me, Jen, I am
so glad that the world got to hear well from
the woman behind the words. And to everyone else, thank
you for listening. And guess what, ding ding ding ding
ding special announcement, Why don't you come back tomorrow? Yeah,

(53:11):
because I am launching the rest of my conversation with
our spectacular writer Mike Sure or you might know him
as Dwight's weirdo cousin Mows. See you tomorrow, everyone. The Office.

(53:34):
Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner,
alongside our executive producer, Lang Lee. Our senior producer is
Tessa Kramer. Our producers are Liz Hayes and Diego Tapia.
My main man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our
theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend
Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth Olandski.

(54:20):
Adoption of teams from foster care is a topic not
enough people know about, and we're here to change that.
I'm April Dinnuity, host of the new podcast Navigating Adoption,
presented by adopt Us Kids. Each episode brings you compelling,
real life adoption stories told by the families that lived
them with commentary from experts. Visit adopt us Kids dot org,
slash podcast, or subscribe to Navigating Adoption, presented by adopt

(54:44):
us Kids, brought to you by the U. S Department
of Health, that Human Services Administration for Children and Families,
and the ACT Council. Look for your children's eyes and
you will discover the true magic of a forest. Find
a forest near you and start exploring. Get Discover the
Forest dot org, brought to you by the United States
Forest Service and the ad Council. Hi. I'm Hillary Clinton,

(55:08):
and I'm so excited to be back with a third
season of you and Me both. When I started this podcast,
we were going through some tough times, and let's face it,
we still are. And here's what I know. We cannot
get through this alone. So please join me for more
conversations with people who will make you think, make you laugh,

(55:29):
and help us find a path forward. This season, I'll
be talking about the state of our democracy with experts
and with people organizing on the ground. We'll draw inspiration
from some amazing people like Olympic star Alison Felix and
Grammy Award winner Brandy Carlisle, and we'll get into the

(55:49):
hard stuff with writer Cheryl Strait and my dear friend
and colleague Huma Aberdeen. So join us. Listen to you
and me both on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcast m hm