June 1, 2021 • 54 mins
Brian returns to his conversation with the “heart of The Office”, Jenna Fischer aka Pam Beasley. Jenna reveals her only regret from the show (ugh, thanks, Toby!), how Rainn is both deeply soulful and a curmudgeon, and how Steve has a really good idea for a reboot.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
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(01:29):
Tuesday and Thursday. This is Jenni Fisher, I played Pam Beasley. Hello, folks,
thank you so much for joining me here today. That's right,
(01:53):
she's back. Uh. This is the office Deep Dive and
I am your host, Brian baum Gartner. Today, I am
so thrilled to be bringing you the second half of
my conversation with Jenna, and this time we are diving
right in to the good stuff. That's right, the real
(02:15):
reason you're all here. Jim and Pam, p B and
freaking Jay. Now, over the years, Jenna and John have
been asked approximately eight billion questions about Jim and Pam's relationship.
So I have to say I almost didn't even want
to ask them about it, but but I did, and
(02:38):
I was blown away by how interesting it was to
talk about Jenna in particular, shared so many incredible insights
into their relationship and and what made it unique on
television and why she and John are actually not a
couple in real life, and trust me, they are not anyway.
(03:01):
That is just the beginning. This conversation was so fascinating,
as every conversation with Jenna is. I cannot say enough
good things about her. So go ahead and welcome to
your ear holes, Miss Jenna Fisher. Bubble and Squeak, I
(03:24):
love it. Bubble and Squeak on Bubble and Squeaker cookie
every month. Left over from the night before. I was
(03:45):
literally laying in bed last night thinking about this, Like,
if you think about the office as like a person
or a body or something, Pam was the heart and
your relationship with so many different people, well with everybody,
but really those three, you know, Jim and Dwight and
Michael obviously the relationship with Jim. Why do you think
(04:08):
that that relationship resonated so much with with audiences? Oh,
I think it's the unrequited love. I think we've all
been there. We've all been in love with someone who
either didn't love us or couldn't love us, or because
of circumstances or distance or whatever. These things were we're
(04:30):
keeping us from being able to fully express our feelings
the longing. And then I think additionally the clear chemistry
between the characters that you could see that they were
meant to be together and you just rooted for them absolutely.
(04:51):
But I think that there was also something about your
performance and John's performance. You showed such heart and vulnerability
that I think people were really rooting for you, whether
they had found what they wanted to or not. Well.
I think both Pam and Jim are very good people.
(05:12):
They're polite. It's one of the reasons why it takes
them so long. And uh, I think you always want
the good guy to win, So I think you did
want them to find one another and be together. It's hopeful, right. Um,
Nothing throughout the entire history of the show brought production
(05:34):
to a screeching halt like a big Jim Pam moment.
It's true, and I say that with love and also
with utter frustration. It Um, Yeah, we really really cared.
I mean John and I would fight hard for what
we believed, and we were usually on the same page
with Jim and Pam. We were had like a singular mind.
(05:56):
When it came to Jim and Pam. For the most part,
there was often one Jim Pam moment per episode, and
it was either where they're going to connect in some
super special swoony way, or they're gonna misstep in some
way where one of them gets their feelings hurt. And
there was this very fine line that we had to
walk all the time. So, for example, shooting a scene
(06:21):
over and over and over again where this time they
can touch hands, but then we have to do one
where they don't touch hands because it might be too
much when their hands, if their hands touch, that might
be going too far. Or do we end it with
a hug or should he kiss her cheek? Before all
of these little ways, how much were they allowed to
literally touch one another, look at each other's eyes, swoon
(06:42):
at each other. I mean we would, we would spend
hours debating and shooting alternates of these gym PAM scenes
and ours is not an exaggeration, It is not an exaggeration.
But what's amazing is this wasn't like mystical producers in
another land talking of this was you and John who
are in there indulgent question? No, no, not at all. No,
(07:09):
I mean I think it speaks to the two of
you as artists, but I think that there's also the
camera as a character. And what I recall is you
and John specifically with greg Or Ken or one of
the other directors, you know, sort of two major questions,
who is seeing this moment? Is the camera seeing this moment?
(07:29):
And how does that change my behavior in this moment?
And those were the things that I feel like well
brought production to a screeching hold. This was one of
the most fun elements of working on our show was
this camera as a character because this idea that when
you know the camera is filming you, it affects your behavior.
(07:50):
It certainly affects Michael's behavior. When he knows the camera
is on him, he performs for the camera. He does
things like makes giant declaray shans and pledges of money
to Oscar's nephews Walkathon in front of the camera. But
then when he doesn't know that the camera is shooting
through the blinds, he tries to talk his way out
of it. So that is so fun to play. And
(08:13):
similarly with Jim and Pam, how do Jim and Pam
behave when they know they're being watched and observed and
then how do they behave with one another when they
can't see the camera, when the camera is deep in
the kitchen shooting through the blinds. I absolutely loved those nuances.
Those were some of the most fun things to play
with on our show. Yes, well, and when I directed,
(08:36):
and I'm not just saying well when I directed to
get in the fact that I directed. But there was
a moment later on season eight Kathy Lindsay broad like
Kathy and Jim goes away to Florida, and Cathy's clearly
trying to get the moves on him. It's taking place
in Jim's bedroom and we had to shoot the only
way to shoot the room was through the windows. Because
(08:58):
of the cameras were in the room, we would not
have gotten the interaction between Kathy and Jim that we
ultimately wanted. But then there was a phone call with Pam.
You with Pam that happened there, and I remember sitting
in You weren't Invalencia, You were probably home. Did I
not come? Because I have a very vivid memory of
(09:20):
being there when Jim was a smug Bedbug? Was that
your episode Smugbedbug? I have a memory of watching Rain
and John crack up as John was a smug bedbug.
I think that you came for the phone call, but
we had a huge conversation about you were involved in
(09:45):
what the interaction was between Kathy and Jim, because John
wanted you involved and you wanted to be involved, and
how that interaction, what that meant for your relationship with Jim. Anyway,
I think it just speaks to everybody wanting to get
it right. Yeah, we cared on this show very deeply.
(10:07):
Everybody cared very very much. And I think that started
with Greg. Greg's heart was in this show, and you
could tell and he delighted. He delighted in getting it right,
and and we would shoot something and we would all
look over at the monitors at Greg and see if
he was doing his little handclap with his little smile,
(10:32):
and he puts his eyes up in the air, you know,
because that's when we knew we nailed it. And he
was such a great barometer for that. When did you
When did you start realizing or noticing that Jim and
Pam's relationship was becoming so important to people outside and
was it infringing on your real life? Well, realizing that
(10:58):
my friend John and I couldn't go anywhere in public
together as friends or else. People would lose their minds.
They didn't know how to deal with that. They didn't
know how. And even today, people don't know how John
and I are not a couple in real life. They
don't understand it, and I don't know how to explain it,
(11:18):
because it's a little bit like telling kids there's no Santa.
It's like, I don't want to break anyone's heart. So
it's hard. It's it's really hard. You should just explain
that he's a real pain in the ass life. Why
would you not just say that? But that's weird. I
have to. I feel like I have to justify why
(11:38):
John and I are actually in love. And the bottom
line is we were playing characters. But I know that
if people think of us as John and Jenna, then
it's destroying some of the magic of Jim and Pam.
But I'm not Pam in real life and he's not
Jim in real life, And in real life we're mismatched.
(12:00):
He is perfectly matched with Emily and I'm perfectly matched
with Lee, and you know us all both And in fact,
I feel like if anyone wants to marry anyone, they
want to marry Emily or Lee. They don't want to
actually marry me or John. Is that a good description
(12:20):
of why John and I are not imagined relife because
you know us both. Yes, I think that that's a
great description. I also think, yeah, you both were playing characters,
and I think that you, um, and you've expressed today
how different you are from Pam and John is different
from Jim. People perceive you to be that even you know,
(12:41):
if someone has a couple of minute interaction with me,
they're they're not going to mistake me for Kevin. And
I think that's so true of like Angela as well.
Angela is like a bubbly cheerleader. She's your best friend
in two minutes. She's so not the bitchy Angela Martin
that she plays on the show. We am even most
of the time. Oh come on, But but I do
(13:04):
see how John and I the Lion is a little
more blurred. Like you can have an interaction with John
and I and think maybe that we really are just
like Pam or just like yeah, yeah, um, okay. Do
you have a favorite moment or moments between the two
of you that you got to play together. Yes. One
of my first favorite moments is when we are up
(13:25):
on the roof eating the grilled cheese sandwiches and you
and Rain are doing the fireworks out in the lawn.
And that was super special because we had this skeleton crew.
Everyone had gone home for the day, and up until
this point we had mostly only ever been shooting in
(13:46):
a big group in the office with lots of people,
and here it was just me and John on some
lawn chairs. It was a summer evening, like a warm breeze, candlelight.
Greg is up on the roof, just a couple of
crew members were up on the roof, and it was
like so peaceful up there, the five of us, and
(14:10):
then watching you and Rain, who I believe we had
no way of communicating with, Yeah, just setting off fireworks.
It just all felt really real and lovely. So that
moment is one of my favorite moments. And what I'm
gonna do is I'm gonna edit out you're talking about
Greg and the other two crew members up there, because
(14:30):
then you're describing sitting there with John. That's why people
think you're love That's so it's a warm summer breeze
and we were sitting in lawn chairs on the roof,
but some of it like it. It's true. It's like,
you know, Matt Son is up on the roof and
Greg is there, and we're all just none of us
can believe we're on the roof. And we had to
take this. They had this old, rickety, rusted ladder that
(14:54):
was on the side of the roof that everybody else
climbed up, but since John and I were cast members,
we weren't allowed, like fork lifted us up there on
this wearing a weird harness. It was very funny. Um,
were you worried when Pam and Jim got married that
that was gonna screw things up? I wasn't because we
(15:15):
had been together now for a couple of seasons. So
I think the question was can they get together and
be a stable couple and will we still care? And
and I remember having a conversation with Greg where Greg
was like, well, you know what's going to lose people
is if we just keep manufacturing these affairs and these
(15:38):
you know, weird ways that we keep them apart. That's
exhausting and it's not realistic. And so what we're going
to need to do is bring them together and then
give them obstacles to overcome as a couple. So rather
than obstacles that keep them from being a couple, give
them obstacles to break through as a couple, like Pam
(16:01):
wanting to go to art school or Jim wanting to
start his own business, or having their first kid or
whatever these things were, that they were going to have
to weather the storm together, that that would be more
interesting and more realistic, And people loved it. I think
that's so smart, so smart, because but he said, you
know what's not going to be satisfying is if they
(16:22):
get together at the end of season nine after multiple
affairs and like all this, like everyone's gonna be like, yay,
I guess you know. Congrats. I hope you enjoy your
marriage with all your horrible baggage. Look totally right, that's
not a happy ending. I've never heard that is so smart. Yeah,
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your podcasts. Okay, so I talked again about sort of
(20:42):
that emotional core Dwight talk to me a little bit
about the relationship between the two of you and how
that changed and evolved. I mean, you were with Jim
adversaries and made you crazy forever, and then ultimately by
the end, he says that you're his best friend, Dwight,
(21:02):
does you know? I think it's that first episode The Injury,
when Pam has that line, Dwight is kind of my friend,
But I think there's other things. You know, Jim and
Pam spends so much time teasing Dwight, and I think
even go too far. A few times in my rewatching
(21:24):
of the show, I think there's a few times when
we're like, actually a little cruel to him that makes
me cringe and I feel like, oh, that wasn't our
best moment. But I appreciate because we allow our characters too.
We don't all every day have perfect moments, right. But
it's so hard for me to think about Pam's relationship
(21:44):
with Dwight without thinking about my relationship to Rain. Rain
is a deeply soulful person. He's also like a curmudgeon
lee old man. He's really cranky sometimes and on set
he would do you remember the time, do you remember
the time, he declared, oh my god, it was so funny.
(22:08):
We were getting ready to shoot and he said, hold on, wait,
just hold on, everybody, hold on for a second. I
have an announcement. Everyone, on Monday's you do not need
to ask me how my weekend was anymore. All right,
every single person asked me how my weekend was. Just
assume it was fine. We were like, where is this
gummy from right? And I talked to him about this,
(22:32):
and he goes, Jenna, that is not true. I said
that on a Tuesday. I said, only asked me how
my weekend was on Monday's. No more of this bleeding
into Tuesday Mondays and not. He went crazy because no,
And I know what he was talking about, because it's
five o'clock in the morning and every single person that
you passed is like, hello, good morning, how was your weekend?
(22:53):
And he what he was saying was like, you don't
have to talk to me. We just saw each other
on Friday night. We're good, We're good. Yes, it's so true.
So he would be like that guy on this set.
It was like so funny. But then at the same time,
in moments of deep crisis, I have phoned him. I
(23:14):
had a job offer that was going to take me
out of town and would uproot my family for a
period of time that I really wrestled with the decision.
I called him and he counseled me. He is he
has that in him, a type of counselor, and I
value him so deeply in my life. But then like
(23:36):
like he'll call me up and he'll be like, do
you want to go to lunch? And I'm like, yeah,
I mean, because you sound like you want to go
so bad, Like is it a chore or do you
want to go? Just like no, I want to lunch
with you, Like all right, let's go to lunch. And
then you go to lunch, and I was just sort
of like, are you liking our lunch? Are we having
a good lunch? How are you tell me about you
(23:57):
and all this money? But then like if I were
to do you know what I mean? So it's very
much like the Pam Dwight where Pam will like be like, oh,
I love Dwight. I'm gonna go say something nice to him,
and then he'll just be like, Pam something about knives,
something about snakes or bears, and she's like, yeah, okay, right, okay,
(24:20):
but so I guess, um, I feel deeply loved by Rain,
and I think Pam fell deeply loved by Dwight as well.
Like they had a real bond. They really cared for
one another eventually eventually yeah. Um. Well, and it's similar
to your relationship with Michael, right, I mean from where
that relationship started and him fake firing you to him
(24:45):
leaving and you you having sort of that final moment
with him. Um, what did he say to you? Well,
it wasn't so much what he said to me. Um.
Paul fig did that episode Goodbye Michael, and Uh. We
were at the airport and Paul Fike said, Jenna, I
(25:06):
want you to just run up and just say goodbye
to Steve, your friend Steve. This is your last scene
with him, so say goodbye. We're not going to use
the sound, We're just going to have a spy shot
on you. So I thought, okay, So I ran up
to Steve and I just told him all the ways
I was going to miss him and how grateful I
(25:28):
was for his friendship and the privilege of working with him.
And I'm sobbing and he's sobbing, and we're hugging and
and I didn't want to let him go and I
didn't want the scene to end. And then finally Paul Fike,
you know, says cut and he was like, Jenna, that
was that was brilliant. Can you do it again? But
just a little faster because it had been like five minutes.
(25:52):
He was like, we just need to tighten it up
a little because they wanted him to actually walk ahead
and they had one camera. There was only one shot
that they couldn't edit. Is so great. I was like,
just tighten it up a little, but sweetie, great job.
(26:14):
I guess he could tell. I was like sobbing. Yeah.
In thinking back, honestly, when he Steve leaving to me
was almost more emotional than the show ending. Well. The
thing is is that it wasn't just the character of
Michael that we were losing. We were losing the captain
(26:35):
of our ship, Steve Carrell. And I don't think that
I can say enough how important him as our leader
was because just the kind of man he is, his work, ethic,
his kindness, his generosity, there was no ego, and to
(26:56):
be led with that, along with Greg's heart, it was
very frightening to me that we were losing him. He
was our compass that pointed us north and kept us
all in line, and I really worried, what's it gonna
be like on set without him. We just all agreed
he was the most important person on set, and we
(27:18):
always wanted the day to be easy for him. He
had the most lines, he had the most work, he
had to drive the show, and we all just collectively
were there to support him. And he was so generous.
I mean, I remember, I remember directors would come in
who were new and they wouldn't be able to find Steve,
(27:39):
but he'd just be sitting on the couch. By reception,
We'll be like, oh, he's right there. Because he was
so He wasn't like and I'm here kind of guy,
you know, he was just and I and I say
this because after working on the Office, I've worked on
many projects where this is not the case. And I
see how that, in fact a group of people, when
(28:02):
there is someone who is leading the ship, who is
insecure and needs a constant ego boost, and it makes
me even more grateful for how Steve was and how
he is still. I also remember Will Ferrell coming in
and guesting with us, and then I've done movies with
Will Ferrell, and he's the same way, And I always thought, wow,
(28:23):
they really have a competition for like greatest person to
work for work with Steve and Will just like nicest
man in Hollywood. But um so, my biggest fear was
even just what is the onset vibe going to be
like without Steve? Not to mention what stories are we
going to tell? Who are we without this leader? And
(28:47):
I'll say it here and this is the only time
I've ever really publicly said this, but It's always disappointed
me that we didn't trust in our core office group
and enough to continue the show without bringing in what
I think we thought we needed, which were these big
guest actors to fill steve shoes. And I always felt
(29:13):
like fear drove some decisions two that I does that
make sense? It does make sense. Yeah, I always wondered
just what would that season have been like like what
we then got with season nine, where we said, no,
we're enough, the bench is deep enough, the talent is there.
(29:36):
We can keep the ship afloat with what we have.
I don't know how you feel about that season eight.
I hear what you're saying. I think that there was
fear and what would happen if we didn't have someone
else helming, because being the boss changes the character. Yeah,
so Dwight as the boss is not Dwight, That's right.
(30:00):
Dwight is the character who wants to be the boss,
who's always angling to be the boss, but who had
does not actually have the authority. So if you make
him the boss, then who is that guy? So it
does make sense that they felt like they're needed to
be and that was the question who should be the boss?
This was the conversation who should be the boss? I
(30:22):
mean I remember being up in the writer's room and
people ask me who I thought should be the boss?
And I was like, guys, I don't know, I don't know.
They were still trying to get like anybody's opinion, like
does anyone have a perspective on this? Well? And I
think as a character it was Jim. I mean I
think Jim was the most I mean, he was lazy,
(30:43):
he was the most well suited a technical level, should
be promoted to that job? Correct, Yes, in terms of
his interaction with people, his ability to lead and sort
of inspire people. But I think then that messes up
storylines in a way that for sure, So I guess
you know when you when when we get back to this,
(31:05):
it is like, okay, when we need some other force
of nature to come in and be the boss of
these people so that they can stay being them? Right? Yeah,
I don't know that was that was tricky, but we
made it through and we got some great episodes that season,
and then we went into season nine where we sort
of just didn't have a boss for a while. Remember
(31:27):
Andy was our boss, but then he got lost on
the boat and then we just sort of we were like, oh,
here's an answer. Just it's an empty office. There's no
regional manager anymore. Um, what did you think about bringing
the sound man? Breaking the fourth while and bringing Brian
onto the show? Was there a conference? There was a
major conference, many conferences. So for season nine, John and
(31:51):
I were producers. We were given those titles because we
were brought in to really discuss the Jim Pam arc
of the final season, and so we spent a lot
of time up in the writer's room talking about all
the beats of that story and what it would be.
I did many on camera auditions with various Brian's to
be the boom operator, and then many discussions about who
(32:14):
exactly it should be. There was this one actor who
was just phenomenal, who just looked so much like John
Krasinski that we had a whole discussion about whether or
not he should look too much like John Krasinski, if
that would feel like Pam, you know what I mean,
and like all this stuff, and so anyway, I liked
that storyline. I thought it was really interesting because another
(32:37):
part of season nine was that we were going to
release the documentary that you were going to see what
how it affects these people's lives for them to see
themselves in a documentary, And I think that's really great
closure for the show as well. Perfect I think it
was an underrated ending of the show. I felt like
(32:58):
Greg very clearly had a story that he wanted to tell. Yeah,
And I think that when you're live that your anticipation,
there's almost nothing that can meet your expectations. But I
think if you go back and you watch it, you
see just the brilliance of how he tied it all
up truly. Um, when did you find out that Steve
(33:21):
was coming back for the finale? Did you know early on?
I feel like I almost always knew because John and
I had been up in the writer's room talking about
the finale and we were sworn secrecy. So I feel
like I knew for a pretty long time, and I
(33:42):
knew that there was a lot of trickery going on
that he was not written into the final script. At
the final table read, there was a scene between Dwight
and Steve, but it was written between White and Creed,
and Creed read the lines at the final table read,
and that was because they did not want anyone at
(34:04):
the network to know that Steve was coming back. It
was a huge secret. They didn't want NBCPR to like, yeah,
please it and and to ruin the surprise of Steve
being in the finale. Um, what's your memory from that were?
Do you more laughy or cry like in the table reads? Oh?
(34:25):
I think I cried a little bit every single day.
I was a crier at the table read. I was crying.
That was really emotional that last table read. Chris Workman,
our camera operator assistant, took a photo of that last
table read that Angela has blown up in her house
(34:46):
on her wall. That is fantastic of that last moment
right after we said the last line. And then I
remember that Pam has the last line of the show,
and they had originally scheduled it so that that would
be the very last thing we shoot. And I think
it was John or some other people said, oh, man, well,
(35:09):
we don't all want to be wrapped, and then Jenna
has this talking head and and Greg said something like,
oh yeah, yeah, we gotta have the last scene be
with everybody. And after I finished my talking head, we
shot the b roll of me taking the picture off
the wall and all of us walking out the door.
(35:31):
And we did it, I don't know how many times,
five or six, but we would take the thing off
the wall and all walk out, and then we would
all stand off camera by the elevator, all of us,
many of us cramped by this elevator, and there would
be this moment where we would wait to see if
they were going to say cut going again or cut
(35:54):
that's a wrap. And I'm getting choked up just thinking
about that, because those seconds of waiting, and every time
I just wanted them to stay cut going again, because
I knew when they said that's a wrap, that that
was a wrap. That was it. I'd never shoot the
office again. And when they said that's a rap, I
just burst into tears and started hugging the closest people
(36:16):
that I could find, and and it was it was
really it was just really really crazy and emotional. Yeah,
will you play that. I thought it was weird when
you picked us to make a documentary, But all in all,
(36:36):
I think an ordinary paper company like dunder Mifflin was
a great subject for a documentary. There's a lot of
beauty and ordinary things, isn't that kind of the point
to me? That's that's what Gregg thinks it was about that,
(37:00):
there's a lot of beauty and ordinary things. What do
you think it was about, Great Daniels, I think that's
what it was about. Yeah, I do. I also, um,
I always thought selfishly, because it was my job to
view the show through my character, It's not lost on
(37:22):
me that when Pam was ready to break free of
dunder Mifflin, the show ended. So I always kind of
thought it was the journey of a girl becoming a woman,
finding herself going out into the world. When we meet her,
she's trapped behind this desk and she sort of slowly
moves to sales and then finds the man she loves
(37:43):
and starts this family. And then when she's really ready,
she really fights against leaving, and then when she's ready
to go, it's all over because the documentary doesn't stop
when Michael leaves, so it's not really a documentary about
Michael Scott. You know, they decided to stop making the
documentary on Pam Leaves. That's so interesting. From the creator
(38:18):
of The Bright Sessions, comes a new fiction podcast for
all ages. Jump back to and follow maxim Miles as
she starts high school in the picturess town of Hastings,
New Hampshire. Fall is the season in which this small
town shines apple cider, pumpkin patches farmers markets. It's idyllic
for adults and boring for Max. But suddenly Max's school
(38:39):
year starts to look a bit more interesting when a
fellow student vanishes. With the help of her misanthropic classmate Ross,
Max starts to look into the disappearance. Her investigation draws
her deep into the dark woods around Hastings, and even
deeper into the secrets and lies a course of the
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from writer director Lauren Chippen, is an audio drama with
(39:00):
heart and wit that involves the audience in a way
no fiction podcast ever has. Listen to Maxi Miles on
the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you
get your favorite shows. Hi, I'm Glory Adam, host of
Well Read Black Girl. Each week I sit in close
(39:22):
conversation with one of my favorite authors of color and
share stories about how they found their voice, hone their craft,
and navigated the publishing world, and composed some of the
most beautiful and meaningful words I've ever read. We journey
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(39:43):
collide and pay homage to the women whose books we
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(40:06):
Listen to a Well Read Black Girl on the I
Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.
Have you ever felt depressed about work only to have
your dad be like, why you're so down? So you
told him you hate your job and he said, well,
you better talk yourself out of it, And then you
thought hmm, I love to talk. I could host a podcast.
And then you went to Speaker from my Heart and
started a podcast and got good at it, then monetized it,
(40:28):
then quit your boring job and told your dad thanks
for the advice. And he was like, well, that's not
what I meant, and I don't understand what a podcast is.
But you seem happy. So that's great, kiddo. You ever
do that? Well, you could at speaker dot com. That's
spr e A k E. R. Ask your dad you
actually don't. Do you think the Office can be made today? No,
(41:01):
I don't think it could. Well, I don't know if
it could be made today. It's a good question. Well,
first of all, something I want to point out our
question I want to ask you is people always ask
us if we're all really friends in real life, And
I don't even think saying that we're friends in real
life accurately communicates how deeply I feel for you and everybody.
(41:22):
It's a like a love of family, Like I can't
explain it. Do you think if we've made this show
in the age of smartphones and whatnot, that we would
be as deeply connected? Like don't you think like the circumstances.
That's of us being trapped on that set for the
(41:42):
first season with no working computers, no phones, no internet, nothing,
just a troop of actors and artists trapped in a
room for twelve hours a day playing. We never absorbed
ourselves and our phones or emails or other work or anything.
And I think that that lent itself to part of
(42:03):
the magic. And I just wonder if if you tried
to put us all in a room today, I don't know,
wouldn't we just have our phones and our desks? I
think that maybe I don't know, Maybe I think that
we for sure. What I think is we were a
collective group of people with differing backgrounds and experiences and training.
(42:29):
It was like we were an old time theater troupe,
yes stuck together, and we weren't all famous. We came
from a place of just wanting to do good work. Well.
When Lee and I got married, I had invited a
girlfriend of mine that I'd gone to high school with
from St. Louis, and she was so excited to come
(42:51):
to the wedding and she said, they're going to be
famous people there, you know, And I said, no, not really,
We're not really friends with a lot of famous people,
you know, and then she's like, well, are the cast
members from the Office going to be there? I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah,
they'll be there, and she was like, well they're famous,
and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right. I forgot. But
even now today, I don't think of us that way.
(43:11):
I still always think of us as the people in
the room before anyone cared or anyone knew who we were,
and so being on that journey together as well, I
think really bonded us. But I don't know if we
could make the show today. It's it's really hard to say.
It was such a moment in time. Can you make
(43:34):
a show today with total unknowns? I don't know. Silicon
Valley kind of, there's other shows. Well, let me ask
why do you think the show is more popular now
than it was when it was on. My answer is
very simple. The show is excellent. It's excellent. It is
(43:56):
absolutely brilliantly executed, and it holds up because it's just
that good. Really. But you know, it's funny. I started
this podcast with Angela where we watch an episode of
the Office. We started from the beginning, we break it down.
This was not my this is not a plug moment.
(44:19):
We were about to go there in a minute, but anyway,
go ahead. Now, what I was going to say is
Angela and I are doing this podcast and we have
to watch an episode the office and then we discuss it.
So I've been watching the show from the very beginning.
Had you watched the show since they aired? No, you
had not. I had seen a few here and there.
I had seen the dinner party. I had. I had
(44:41):
been in a trailer on a job and I had
a teeny tiny television mounted to the wall of my trailer.
It was so small. She's not joking right now. She
just held up her fingers and showed three inches. I
don't think the televison now, it's more like five inches.
It was smaller than a laptops screen. It was very tiny,
(45:01):
and it's so I was, so that's what she said.
I was so tickled by it that I took a
picture and I sent it to Steve and John and
Ed and Angela and all of us who had been
in that scene where we were laughing so hard at
Michael's tiny flat screen TV. And then that made me
want to watch that episode. So then I went and
(45:23):
watched the Dinner Party episode, and then a few examples
of things like that where you're flipping through and you
an episode comes on or something like that. But no,
I have not seen most of these episodes since they aired,
so it's been really cool for me. And I have
to say, I really get why people are so excited
(45:47):
about the show. Like, as I watch it again, I'm
really watching it almost as a fan, and it's weird
that I'm on it in some ways when I'm watching myself,
I've always thought it was weird. Is that a fact?
I don't know. But before I started doing that, I
(46:09):
was on Greg to do a reunion special or revived
the office in some way selfishly because I just want
to work with all you all again, and because I
know Steve has a really good idea, and I thought,
let's get Steve's idea going. Come on, Greg, come on, Greg,
you gotta do it. Well. Now that I've been rewatching
(46:30):
the show, I wrote Greg and email recently and I said, Greg, Um,
I don't think you should reopen the show. It's it
is so perfect just as it is, like, I don't
think we should now. I was such a champion for
doing it for so long and now I'm realizing, maybe
(46:51):
it's exactly perfect just as it is, and you don't
want to have this weird extra seven years later or
episode that we made. Um, I don't know. Well, here
you do have. Here's the beauty is of the ability
to edit out whatever I say right now. I have
(47:13):
no interest in it, in doing it in a reunion episode. Yes,
but have you heard Steve's idea. It's a great idea,
that has a good idea. What if we did it
in Scranton, Brian, what if that's the thing that we
come back for, is we shoot an episode finally in Scranton.
(47:33):
Steve's idea? Alright, Well, I'm tempting you. But at the
same time, I think the show is just perfect as
it is. Although we do have an unproduced episode pet Day.
There's one episode of the Office called pet Day. Well
it wasn't shot that we never shot. That's right. I
have the script. I have what you do. In fact,
(47:55):
I signed scripts, obviously to give away to charities. I
have a gigantic box of scripts that because we would
get multiple per week. It was not great for the environment,
but we would get and there in my garage and
boxes and I reached in and grabbed one and it
was pet Day, pet Day? And I thought, what if
I had signed that? And I mean, thank goodness, I
(48:15):
looked at what the title was, because that could have
been true. I could have gotten in trouble for that. Well.
I said to Greg, what if we do a special
where we just do a staged reading of pet Day
and we all come together and we read pet Day.
But wasn't there a reason we didn't do Pet Day?
Animal cruelty, I believe was the reason we didn't do
pet Day because there's like some awful bird death in
(48:38):
it or something I can't remember. A bird death and
a porcupine in Dwight's desk we did, and a throws
a cat a cat and one gets frozen. And no,
there's Greg must not like animals. Um, is there anything else,
(48:59):
anything else that you want covered that you feel like
we didn't? I mean, obviously there's so much. I know,
I know, I don't know you did, you were very good.
I can't think of anything, really, I think something that's
really interesting to talk about two Because you talk about
how there were like the theater people and the comedians,
(49:20):
and then there were the improv people. But There were
also all of these ways that we were weirdly connected,
like that Phillis and I both grew up in St. Louis,
as did Ken kuoppas he grew up in Belleville, Illinois,
which is basically St. Louis. And then also our a
d rusty Mahmud grew up in St. Louis. So there
(49:44):
were four of us St Louis in's. Then there were
a bunch of those Boston guys. You've got John and
Steve and b J and Mike Scher. Then the fact
that like b J and John went to the same
high school and I went to the You and Ed
went to the same high school. And Angela and Oscar
(50:04):
were in an improv group together, and she walked on
set and was like, oh my god, Oscar, you got
cast in this. It was a complete shock to her.
She'd done improv with Kate. So there were these ways
where we'd all been kind of circling each other in
this weird way and then all finally came together. There
were so many coincidences in how we were connected totally. Yes,
(50:29):
I remember shooting a scene for webisodes and was in
the annex camera on me. I was shooting a talking
head and suddenly I saw Ed Helms walking behind the
I was like, Ed, what what are you? And he
was there to meet with Greg and about joining the show.
This is between season two and three. Yeah, it's crazy. Um,
(50:53):
thank you so much. I love you, Brian. I appreciate
you coming and I hope this has been some fun.
I could talk for hours about our show. I love
that you're doing this because I want to hear what
everybody says. Ye, well, there you go. I love you,
I love you, Thank you. That is a rap on
(51:27):
Jenna Fisher here at the office. Deep dive Jenna, thank
you so much for sharing your time with us. I mean, look,
I didn't want to say this to your face, but
I think that we all know Kevin was the real
emotional core of the office. I mean, you can keep
thinking pay them, but I say, it's keV dog. But
(51:50):
you were so great here. I'm gonna let you have it.
I'll even forgive the fact that you're a Cardinals fan.
Go Dodgers listeners. Thank you so much for joining us,
even all your car those fans, and get ready because
next week. Oh it's the big one, folks, It's the
big Cone. Of the Big Cheese, the big guy upstairs,
(52:11):
Steve Correll, have a great week. The Office. Deep Dive
is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside
our executive producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer.
(52:33):
Our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor
is Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is
Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by
my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed
by seth Olandsky. Yeah. Hi, my name is Cassid Zachary
(53:09):
and I am April Callahan, and we are fashion historian
and co hosts and the creators of the podcast Dressed
the History of Fashion, which is dedicated to investigating the
significance of dress from throughout history and around the world,
and we are so excited to bring you a brand
new season celebrating groundbreaking fashion figures and exploring the history
(53:30):
of everything from courses to blue jeans. Dressed the History
of Fashion is available on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast,
or wherever else you listen to your favorite shows. New
episodes drop every Tuesday and Thursday. Hey, Dania Goodyear here.
Have you ever wondered how a true crime podcast like
Lost Hills gets made? How we unearthed secrets and tease
(53:52):
out the truth and deal with complicated characters while tackling
sensitive subjects like violence, trauma, and deception. Now's your chance
to find out. Join me and Jake Calpern, host of
Pushkin's Deep Cover podcast, on March sixteenth for a digital
conversation on true crime storytelling. Get your tickets now at
moment house dot com slash d c l H. That's
(54:15):
m O M E n t house dot com slash
d c l H. I'm Emilia on this podcast. I'm
taking you on a search, a search for love, hard
working Latina, but there were other reasons. I felt like
I couldn't always beat myself. My mom's in prison. This
(54:37):
is Crumbs, my love story. It's a show about the
things we set up for and the bits of ourselves
that make us who we are. Listen to Crumbs on
the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts.
Check out the new podcast I Am Kobe. Do you
want to understand how Kobe Bryant achieved his unequal determination?
How did he come to his incredible passion to win?
In I Am Kobe, we reveal intimate, never before heard
tapes of Kobe when he was a teenager, just as
he was starting to glimpse his own greatness. It's about
the making of an icon. We weave together these tapes
(00:23):
with Kobe's high school coaches, his friends, and the figures
who knew him in his youth. All episodes are out
now so you can binge the whole thing. Listen to
I Am Kobe on the I Heart Radio app, Apple
Podcasts and wherever you get your podcasts. Look for your
children's eyes and you will discover the two magic of
(00:45):
a forest. Find a forest near you and start exploring
a Discover the Forest dot Org. Brought to you by
the United States Forest Service and the AD Council. Hi,
my name is Cassidy Zachary, and I am Apral Callaghan,
and we our fashion historian Yep and co hosts and
the creators of the podcast Dressed the History of Fashion,
(01:06):
which is dedicated to investigating the significance of dress from
throughout history and around the world, and we are so
excited to bring you a brand new season celebrating groundbreaking
fashion figures and explain the history of everything from Courses
to Blue Cheys Dressed. The History of Fashion is available
on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever else
you listen to your favorite shows. New episodes drop every
(01:29):
Tuesday and Thursday. This is Jenni Fisher, I played Pam Beasley. Hello, folks,
thank you so much for joining me here today. That's right,
(01:53):
she's back. Uh. This is the office Deep Dive and
I am your host, Brian baum Gartner. Today, I am
so thrilled to be bringing you the second half of
my conversation with Jenna, and this time we are diving
right in to the good stuff. That's right, the real
(02:15):
reason you're all here. Jim and Pam, p B and
freaking Jay. Now, over the years, Jenna and John have
been asked approximately eight billion questions about Jim and Pam's relationship.
So I have to say I almost didn't even want
to ask them about it, but but I did, and
(02:38):
I was blown away by how interesting it was to
talk about Jenna in particular, shared so many incredible insights
into their relationship and and what made it unique on
television and why she and John are actually not a
couple in real life, and trust me, they are not anyway.
(03:01):
That is just the beginning. This conversation was so fascinating,
as every conversation with Jenna is. I cannot say enough
good things about her. So go ahead and welcome to
your ear holes, Miss Jenna Fisher. Bubble and Squeak, I
(03:24):
love it. Bubble and Squeak on Bubble and Squeaker cookie
every month. Left over from the night before. I was
(03:45):
literally laying in bed last night thinking about this, Like,
if you think about the office as like a person
or a body or something, Pam was the heart and
your relationship with so many different people, well with everybody,
but really those three, you know, Jim and Dwight and
Michael obviously the relationship with Jim. Why do you think
(04:08):
that that relationship resonated so much with with audiences? Oh,
I think it's the unrequited love. I think we've all
been there. We've all been in love with someone who
either didn't love us or couldn't love us, or because
of circumstances or distance or whatever. These things were we're
(04:30):
keeping us from being able to fully express our feelings
the longing. And then I think additionally the clear chemistry
between the characters that you could see that they were
meant to be together and you just rooted for them absolutely.
(04:51):
But I think that there was also something about your
performance and John's performance. You showed such heart and vulnerability
that I think people were really rooting for you, whether
they had found what they wanted to or not. Well.
I think both Pam and Jim are very good people.
(05:12):
They're polite. It's one of the reasons why it takes
them so long. And uh, I think you always want
the good guy to win, So I think you did
want them to find one another and be together. It's hopeful, right. Um,
Nothing throughout the entire history of the show brought production
(05:34):
to a screeching halt like a big Jim Pam moment.
It's true, and I say that with love and also
with utter frustration. It Um, Yeah, we really really cared.
I mean John and I would fight hard for what
we believed, and we were usually on the same page
with Jim and Pam. We were had like a singular mind.
(05:56):
When it came to Jim and Pam. For the most part,
there was often one Jim Pam moment per episode, and
it was either where they're going to connect in some
super special swoony way, or they're gonna misstep in some
way where one of them gets their feelings hurt. And
there was this very fine line that we had to
walk all the time. So, for example, shooting a scene
(06:21):
over and over and over again where this time they
can touch hands, but then we have to do one
where they don't touch hands because it might be too
much when their hands, if their hands touch, that might
be going too far. Or do we end it with
a hug or should he kiss her cheek? Before all
of these little ways, how much were they allowed to
literally touch one another, look at each other's eyes, swoon
(06:42):
at each other. I mean we would, we would spend
hours debating and shooting alternates of these gym PAM scenes
and ours is not an exaggeration, It is not an exaggeration.
But what's amazing is this wasn't like mystical producers in
another land talking of this was you and John who
are in there indulgent question? No, no, not at all. No,
(07:09):
I mean I think it speaks to the two of
you as artists, but I think that there's also the
camera as a character. And what I recall is you
and John specifically with greg Or Ken or one of
the other directors, you know, sort of two major questions,
who is seeing this moment? Is the camera seeing this moment?
(07:29):
And how does that change my behavior in this moment?
And those were the things that I feel like well
brought production to a screeching hold. This was one of
the most fun elements of working on our show was
this camera as a character because this idea that when
you know the camera is filming you, it affects your behavior.
(07:50):
It certainly affects Michael's behavior. When he knows the camera
is on him, he performs for the camera. He does
things like makes giant declaray shans and pledges of money
to Oscar's nephews Walkathon in front of the camera. But
then when he doesn't know that the camera is shooting
through the blinds, he tries to talk his way out
of it. So that is so fun to play. And
(08:13):
similarly with Jim and Pam, how do Jim and Pam
behave when they know they're being watched and observed and
then how do they behave with one another when they
can't see the camera, when the camera is deep in
the kitchen shooting through the blinds. I absolutely loved those nuances.
Those were some of the most fun things to play
with on our show. Yes, well, and when I directed,
(08:36):
and I'm not just saying well when I directed to
get in the fact that I directed. But there was
a moment later on season eight Kathy Lindsay broad like
Kathy and Jim goes away to Florida, and Cathy's clearly
trying to get the moves on him. It's taking place
in Jim's bedroom and we had to shoot the only
way to shoot the room was through the windows. Because
(08:58):
of the cameras were in the room, we would not
have gotten the interaction between Kathy and Jim that we
ultimately wanted. But then there was a phone call with Pam.
You with Pam that happened there, and I remember sitting
in You weren't Invalencia, You were probably home. Did I
not come? Because I have a very vivid memory of
(09:20):
being there when Jim was a smug Bedbug? Was that
your episode Smugbedbug? I have a memory of watching Rain
and John crack up as John was a smug bedbug.
I think that you came for the phone call, but
we had a huge conversation about you were involved in
(09:45):
what the interaction was between Kathy and Jim, because John
wanted you involved and you wanted to be involved, and
how that interaction, what that meant for your relationship with Jim. Anyway,
I think it just speaks to everybody wanting to get
it right. Yeah, we cared on this show very deeply.
(10:07):
Everybody cared very very much. And I think that started
with Greg. Greg's heart was in this show, and you
could tell and he delighted. He delighted in getting it right,
and and we would shoot something and we would all
look over at the monitors at Greg and see if
he was doing his little handclap with his little smile,
(10:32):
and he puts his eyes up in the air, you know,
because that's when we knew we nailed it. And he
was such a great barometer for that. When did you
When did you start realizing or noticing that Jim and
Pam's relationship was becoming so important to people outside and
was it infringing on your real life? Well, realizing that
(10:58):
my friend John and I couldn't go anywhere in public
together as friends or else. People would lose their minds.
They didn't know how to deal with that. They didn't
know how. And even today, people don't know how John
and I are not a couple in real life. They
don't understand it, and I don't know how to explain it,
(11:18):
because it's a little bit like telling kids there's no Santa.
It's like, I don't want to break anyone's heart. So
it's hard. It's it's really hard. You should just explain
that he's a real pain in the ass life. Why
would you not just say that? But that's weird. I
have to. I feel like I have to justify why
(11:38):
John and I are actually in love. And the bottom
line is we were playing characters. But I know that
if people think of us as John and Jenna, then
it's destroying some of the magic of Jim and Pam.
But I'm not Pam in real life and he's not
Jim in real life, And in real life we're mismatched.
(12:00):
He is perfectly matched with Emily and I'm perfectly matched
with Lee, and you know us all both And in fact,
I feel like if anyone wants to marry anyone, they
want to marry Emily or Lee. They don't want to
actually marry me or John. Is that a good description
(12:20):
of why John and I are not imagined relife because
you know us both. Yes, I think that that's a
great description. I also think, yeah, you both were playing characters,
and I think that you, um, and you've expressed today
how different you are from Pam and John is different
from Jim. People perceive you to be that even you know,
(12:41):
if someone has a couple of minute interaction with me,
they're they're not going to mistake me for Kevin. And
I think that's so true of like Angela as well.
Angela is like a bubbly cheerleader. She's your best friend
in two minutes. She's so not the bitchy Angela Martin
that she plays on the show. We am even most
of the time. Oh come on, But but I do
(13:04):
see how John and I the Lion is a little
more blurred. Like you can have an interaction with John
and I and think maybe that we really are just
like Pam or just like yeah, yeah, um, okay. Do
you have a favorite moment or moments between the two
of you that you got to play together. Yes. One
of my first favorite moments is when we are up
(13:25):
on the roof eating the grilled cheese sandwiches and you
and Rain are doing the fireworks out in the lawn.
And that was super special because we had this skeleton crew.
Everyone had gone home for the day, and up until
this point we had mostly only ever been shooting in
(13:46):
a big group in the office with lots of people,
and here it was just me and John on some
lawn chairs. It was a summer evening, like a warm breeze, candlelight.
Greg is up on the roof, just a couple of
crew members were up on the roof, and it was
like so peaceful up there, the five of us, and
(14:10):
then watching you and Rain, who I believe we had
no way of communicating with, Yeah, just setting off fireworks.
It just all felt really real and lovely. So that
moment is one of my favorite moments. And what I'm
gonna do is I'm gonna edit out you're talking about
Greg and the other two crew members up there, because
(14:30):
then you're describing sitting there with John. That's why people
think you're love That's so it's a warm summer breeze
and we were sitting in lawn chairs on the roof,
but some of it like it. It's true. It's like,
you know, Matt Son is up on the roof and
Greg is there, and we're all just none of us
can believe we're on the roof. And we had to
take this. They had this old, rickety, rusted ladder that
(14:54):
was on the side of the roof that everybody else
climbed up, but since John and I were cast members,
we weren't allowed, like fork lifted us up there on
this wearing a weird harness. It was very funny. Um,
were you worried when Pam and Jim got married that
that was gonna screw things up? I wasn't because we
(15:15):
had been together now for a couple of seasons. So
I think the question was can they get together and
be a stable couple and will we still care? And
and I remember having a conversation with Greg where Greg
was like, well, you know what's going to lose people
is if we just keep manufacturing these affairs and these
(15:38):
you know, weird ways that we keep them apart. That's
exhausting and it's not realistic. And so what we're going
to need to do is bring them together and then
give them obstacles to overcome as a couple. So rather
than obstacles that keep them from being a couple, give
them obstacles to break through as a couple, like Pam
(16:01):
wanting to go to art school or Jim wanting to
start his own business, or having their first kid or
whatever these things were, that they were going to have
to weather the storm together, that that would be more
interesting and more realistic, And people loved it. I think
that's so smart, so smart, because but he said, you
know what's not going to be satisfying is if they
(16:22):
get together at the end of season nine after multiple
affairs and like all this, like everyone's gonna be like, yay,
I guess you know. Congrats. I hope you enjoy your
marriage with all your horrible baggage. Look totally right, that's
not a happy ending. I've never heard that is so smart. Yeah,
(16:52):
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I'm Elizabeth Dutton. Wait, sorry, Zaren, do you want to
say your name? I'm good, good, go ahead. We're the
hosts of Ridiculous Crime. People love true crime, right, the mystery,
the intrigue, the human frailty. Totally. But what a lot
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(18:46):
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stories like the kidnapping of Frank Sinatra Jr. And the
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like the UK cat Shaver and Pablo Escobar's cocaine hippos. Yeah,
stories like the dudes who still Buzzy, the animatronic whatever
(19:09):
he was from Disney World, and the woman whose husband
tried to kill her but came back from the dead
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(19:31):
studio that brought you The Devil Within and The Shadow Grows,
comes a new true crime podcast, The Pink Moon Murders.
The local sheriff believes there may be more than one killer.
It's been four days since those bodies were found and
there's no arrest as it this morning. They were afraid
out in that area. What if they come back or whatever.
(19:52):
It scared me to death, Like it scared me, I
was very, very intimidating to live here. Crazy to think
you go to sleep one night, maybe snogling with your
love one and never wake up, or maybe you wake
up in a struggle for your life, which you lose.
Joint host David Ratterman as he explores one fateful night
when evil descended upon small town, Ohio killed eight members
(20:12):
of an Ohio family in a pre planned execution. The
family was targeted, most of them targeted while they were sleeping.
The Pink Moon Murders is available on February twenty second,
and you can follow The Pink Moon Murders on the
I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts. Okay, so I talked again about sort of
(20:42):
that emotional core Dwight talk to me a little bit
about the relationship between the two of you and how
that changed and evolved. I mean, you were with Jim
adversaries and made you crazy forever, and then ultimately by
the end, he says that you're his best friend, Dwight,
(21:02):
does you know? I think it's that first episode The Injury,
when Pam has that line, Dwight is kind of my friend,
But I think there's other things. You know, Jim and
Pam spends so much time teasing Dwight, and I think
even go too far. A few times in my rewatching
(21:24):
of the show, I think there's a few times when
we're like, actually a little cruel to him that makes
me cringe and I feel like, oh, that wasn't our
best moment. But I appreciate because we allow our characters too.
We don't all every day have perfect moments, right. But
it's so hard for me to think about Pam's relationship
(21:44):
with Dwight without thinking about my relationship to Rain. Rain
is a deeply soulful person. He's also like a curmudgeon
lee old man. He's really cranky sometimes and on set
he would do you remember the time, do you remember
the time, he declared, oh my god, it was so funny.
(22:08):
We were getting ready to shoot and he said, hold on, wait,
just hold on, everybody, hold on for a second. I
have an announcement. Everyone, on Monday's you do not need
to ask me how my weekend was anymore. All right,
every single person asked me how my weekend was. Just
assume it was fine. We were like, where is this
gummy from right? And I talked to him about this,
(22:32):
and he goes, Jenna, that is not true. I said
that on a Tuesday. I said, only asked me how
my weekend was on Monday's. No more of this bleeding
into Tuesday Mondays and not. He went crazy because no,
And I know what he was talking about, because it's
five o'clock in the morning and every single person that
you passed is like, hello, good morning, how was your weekend?
(22:53):
And he what he was saying was like, you don't
have to talk to me. We just saw each other
on Friday night. We're good, We're good. Yes, it's so true.
So he would be like that guy on this set.
It was like so funny. But then at the same time,
in moments of deep crisis, I have phoned him. I
(23:14):
had a job offer that was going to take me
out of town and would uproot my family for a
period of time that I really wrestled with the decision.
I called him and he counseled me. He is he
has that in him, a type of counselor, and I
value him so deeply in my life. But then like
(23:36):
like he'll call me up and he'll be like, do
you want to go to lunch? And I'm like, yeah,
I mean, because you sound like you want to go
so bad, Like is it a chore or do you
want to go? Just like no, I want to lunch
with you, Like all right, let's go to lunch. And
then you go to lunch, and I was just sort
of like, are you liking our lunch? Are we having
a good lunch? How are you tell me about you
(23:57):
and all this money? But then like if I were
to do you know what I mean? So it's very
much like the Pam Dwight where Pam will like be like, oh,
I love Dwight. I'm gonna go say something nice to him,
and then he'll just be like, Pam something about knives,
something about snakes or bears, and she's like, yeah, okay, right, okay,
(24:20):
but so I guess, um, I feel deeply loved by Rain,
and I think Pam fell deeply loved by Dwight as well.
Like they had a real bond. They really cared for
one another eventually eventually yeah. Um. Well, and it's similar
to your relationship with Michael, right, I mean from where
that relationship started and him fake firing you to him
(24:45):
leaving and you you having sort of that final moment
with him. Um, what did he say to you? Well,
it wasn't so much what he said to me. Um.
Paul fig did that episode Goodbye Michael, and Uh. We
were at the airport and Paul Fike said, Jenna, I
(25:06):
want you to just run up and just say goodbye
to Steve, your friend Steve. This is your last scene
with him, so say goodbye. We're not going to use
the sound, We're just going to have a spy shot
on you. So I thought, okay, So I ran up
to Steve and I just told him all the ways
I was going to miss him and how grateful I
(25:28):
was for his friendship and the privilege of working with him.
And I'm sobbing and he's sobbing, and we're hugging and
and I didn't want to let him go and I
didn't want the scene to end. And then finally Paul Fike,
you know, says cut and he was like, Jenna, that
was that was brilliant. Can you do it again? But
just a little faster because it had been like five minutes.
(25:52):
He was like, we just need to tighten it up
a little because they wanted him to actually walk ahead
and they had one camera. There was only one shot
that they couldn't edit. Is so great. I was like,
just tighten it up a little, but sweetie, great job.
(26:14):
I guess he could tell. I was like sobbing. Yeah.
In thinking back, honestly, when he Steve leaving to me
was almost more emotional than the show ending. Well. The
thing is is that it wasn't just the character of
Michael that we were losing. We were losing the captain
(26:35):
of our ship, Steve Carrell. And I don't think that
I can say enough how important him as our leader
was because just the kind of man he is, his work, ethic,
his kindness, his generosity, there was no ego, and to
(26:56):
be led with that, along with Greg's heart, it was
very frightening to me that we were losing him. He
was our compass that pointed us north and kept us
all in line, and I really worried, what's it gonna
be like on set without him. We just all agreed
he was the most important person on set, and we
(27:18):
always wanted the day to be easy for him. He
had the most lines, he had the most work, he
had to drive the show, and we all just collectively
were there to support him. And he was so generous.
I mean, I remember, I remember directors would come in
who were new and they wouldn't be able to find Steve,
(27:39):
but he'd just be sitting on the couch. By reception,
We'll be like, oh, he's right there. Because he was
so He wasn't like and I'm here kind of guy,
you know, he was just and I and I say
this because after working on the Office, I've worked on
many projects where this is not the case. And I
see how that, in fact a group of people, when
(28:02):
there is someone who is leading the ship, who is
insecure and needs a constant ego boost, and it makes
me even more grateful for how Steve was and how
he is still. I also remember Will Ferrell coming in
and guesting with us, and then I've done movies with
Will Ferrell, and he's the same way, And I always thought, wow,
(28:23):
they really have a competition for like greatest person to
work for work with Steve and Will just like nicest
man in Hollywood. But um so, my biggest fear was
even just what is the onset vibe going to be
like without Steve? Not to mention what stories are we
going to tell? Who are we without this leader? And
(28:47):
I'll say it here and this is the only time
I've ever really publicly said this, but It's always disappointed
me that we didn't trust in our core office group
and enough to continue the show without bringing in what
I think we thought we needed, which were these big
guest actors to fill steve shoes. And I always felt
(29:13):
like fear drove some decisions two that I does that
make sense? It does make sense. Yeah, I always wondered
just what would that season have been like like what
we then got with season nine, where we said, no,
we're enough, the bench is deep enough, the talent is there.
(29:36):
We can keep the ship afloat with what we have.
I don't know how you feel about that season eight.
I hear what you're saying. I think that there was
fear and what would happen if we didn't have someone
else helming, because being the boss changes the character. Yeah,
so Dwight as the boss is not Dwight, That's right.
(30:00):
Dwight is the character who wants to be the boss,
who's always angling to be the boss, but who had
does not actually have the authority. So if you make
him the boss, then who is that guy? So it
does make sense that they felt like they're needed to
be and that was the question who should be the boss?
This was the conversation who should be the boss? I
(30:22):
mean I remember being up in the writer's room and
people ask me who I thought should be the boss?
And I was like, guys, I don't know, I don't know.
They were still trying to get like anybody's opinion, like
does anyone have a perspective on this? Well? And I
think as a character it was Jim. I mean I
think Jim was the most I mean, he was lazy,
(30:43):
he was the most well suited a technical level, should
be promoted to that job? Correct, Yes, in terms of
his interaction with people, his ability to lead and sort
of inspire people. But I think then that messes up
storylines in a way that for sure, So I guess
you know when you when when we get back to this,
(31:05):
it is like, okay, when we need some other force
of nature to come in and be the boss of
these people so that they can stay being them? Right? Yeah,
I don't know that was that was tricky, but we
made it through and we got some great episodes that season,
and then we went into season nine where we sort
of just didn't have a boss for a while. Remember
(31:27):
Andy was our boss, but then he got lost on
the boat and then we just sort of we were like, oh,
here's an answer. Just it's an empty office. There's no
regional manager anymore. Um, what did you think about bringing
the sound man? Breaking the fourth while and bringing Brian
onto the show? Was there a conference? There was a
major conference, many conferences. So for season nine, John and
(31:51):
I were producers. We were given those titles because we
were brought in to really discuss the Jim Pam arc
of the final season, and so we spent a lot
of time up in the writer's room talking about all
the beats of that story and what it would be.
I did many on camera auditions with various Brian's to
be the boom operator, and then many discussions about who
(32:14):
exactly it should be. There was this one actor who
was just phenomenal, who just looked so much like John
Krasinski that we had a whole discussion about whether or
not he should look too much like John Krasinski, if
that would feel like Pam, you know what I mean,
and like all this stuff, and so anyway, I liked
that storyline. I thought it was really interesting because another
(32:37):
part of season nine was that we were going to
release the documentary that you were going to see what
how it affects these people's lives for them to see
themselves in a documentary, And I think that's really great
closure for the show as well. Perfect I think it
was an underrated ending of the show. I felt like
(32:58):
Greg very clearly had a story that he wanted to tell. Yeah,
And I think that when you're live that your anticipation,
there's almost nothing that can meet your expectations. But I
think if you go back and you watch it, you
see just the brilliance of how he tied it all
up truly. Um, when did you find out that Steve
(33:21):
was coming back for the finale? Did you know early on?
I feel like I almost always knew because John and
I had been up in the writer's room talking about
the finale and we were sworn secrecy. So I feel
like I knew for a pretty long time, and I
(33:42):
knew that there was a lot of trickery going on
that he was not written into the final script. At
the final table read, there was a scene between Dwight
and Steve, but it was written between White and Creed,
and Creed read the lines at the final table read,
and that was because they did not want anyone at
(34:04):
the network to know that Steve was coming back. It
was a huge secret. They didn't want NBCPR to like, yeah,
please it and and to ruin the surprise of Steve
being in the finale. Um, what's your memory from that were?
Do you more laughy or cry like in the table reads? Oh?
(34:25):
I think I cried a little bit every single day.
I was a crier at the table read. I was crying.
That was really emotional that last table read. Chris Workman,
our camera operator assistant, took a photo of that last
table read that Angela has blown up in her house
(34:46):
on her wall. That is fantastic of that last moment
right after we said the last line. And then I
remember that Pam has the last line of the show,
and they had originally scheduled it so that that would
be the very last thing we shoot. And I think
it was John or some other people said, oh, man, well,
(35:09):
we don't all want to be wrapped, and then Jenna
has this talking head and and Greg said something like,
oh yeah, yeah, we gotta have the last scene be
with everybody. And after I finished my talking head, we
shot the b roll of me taking the picture off
the wall and all of us walking out the door.
(35:31):
And we did it, I don't know how many times,
five or six, but we would take the thing off
the wall and all walk out, and then we would
all stand off camera by the elevator, all of us,
many of us cramped by this elevator, and there would
be this moment where we would wait to see if
they were going to say cut going again or cut
(35:54):
that's a wrap. And I'm getting choked up just thinking
about that, because those seconds of waiting, and every time
I just wanted them to stay cut going again, because
I knew when they said that's a wrap, that that
was a wrap. That was it. I'd never shoot the
office again. And when they said that's a rap, I
just burst into tears and started hugging the closest people
(36:16):
that I could find, and and it was it was
really it was just really really crazy and emotional. Yeah,
will you play that. I thought it was weird when
you picked us to make a documentary, But all in all,
(36:36):
I think an ordinary paper company like dunder Mifflin was
a great subject for a documentary. There's a lot of
beauty and ordinary things, isn't that kind of the point
to me? That's that's what Gregg thinks it was about that,
(37:00):
there's a lot of beauty and ordinary things. What do
you think it was about, Great Daniels, I think that's
what it was about. Yeah, I do. I also, um,
I always thought selfishly, because it was my job to
view the show through my character, It's not lost on
(37:22):
me that when Pam was ready to break free of
dunder Mifflin, the show ended. So I always kind of
thought it was the journey of a girl becoming a woman,
finding herself going out into the world. When we meet her,
she's trapped behind this desk and she sort of slowly
moves to sales and then finds the man she loves
(37:43):
and starts this family. And then when she's really ready,
she really fights against leaving, and then when she's ready
to go, it's all over because the documentary doesn't stop
when Michael leaves, so it's not really a documentary about
Michael Scott. You know, they decided to stop making the
documentary on Pam Leaves. That's so interesting. From the creator
(38:18):
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Have you ever felt depressed about work only to have
your dad be like, why you're so down? So you
told him you hate your job and he said, well,
you better talk yourself out of it, And then you
thought hmm, I love to talk. I could host a podcast.
And then you went to Speaker from my Heart and
started a podcast and got good at it, then monetized it,
(40:28):
then quit your boring job and told your dad thanks
for the advice. And he was like, well, that's not
what I meant, and I don't understand what a podcast is.
But you seem happy. So that's great, kiddo. You ever
do that? Well, you could at speaker dot com. That's
spr e A k E. R. Ask your dad you
actually don't. Do you think the Office can be made today? No,
(41:01):
I don't think it could. Well, I don't know if
it could be made today. It's a good question. Well,
first of all, something I want to point out our
question I want to ask you is people always ask
us if we're all really friends in real life, And
I don't even think saying that we're friends in real
life accurately communicates how deeply I feel for you and everybody.
(41:22):
It's a like a love of family, Like I can't
explain it. Do you think if we've made this show
in the age of smartphones and whatnot, that we would
be as deeply connected? Like don't you think like the circumstances.
That's of us being trapped on that set for the
(41:42):
first season with no working computers, no phones, no internet, nothing,
just a troop of actors and artists trapped in a
room for twelve hours a day playing. We never absorbed
ourselves and our phones or emails or other work or anything.
And I think that that lent itself to part of
(42:03):
the magic. And I just wonder if if you tried
to put us all in a room today, I don't know,
wouldn't we just have our phones and our desks? I
think that maybe I don't know, Maybe I think that
we for sure. What I think is we were a
collective group of people with differing backgrounds and experiences and training.
(42:29):
It was like we were an old time theater troupe,
yes stuck together, and we weren't all famous. We came
from a place of just wanting to do good work. Well.
When Lee and I got married, I had invited a
girlfriend of mine that I'd gone to high school with
from St. Louis, and she was so excited to come
(42:51):
to the wedding and she said, they're going to be
famous people there, you know, And I said, no, not really,
We're not really friends with a lot of famous people,
you know, and then she's like, well, are the cast
members from the Office going to be there? I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah,
they'll be there, and she was like, well they're famous,
and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right. I forgot. But
even now today, I don't think of us that way.
(43:11):
I still always think of us as the people in
the room before anyone cared or anyone knew who we were,
and so being on that journey together as well, I
think really bonded us. But I don't know if we
could make the show today. It's it's really hard to say.
It was such a moment in time. Can you make
(43:34):
a show today with total unknowns? I don't know. Silicon
Valley kind of, there's other shows. Well, let me ask
why do you think the show is more popular now
than it was when it was on. My answer is
very simple. The show is excellent. It's excellent. It is
(43:56):
absolutely brilliantly executed, and it holds up because it's just
that good. Really. But you know, it's funny. I started
this podcast with Angela where we watch an episode of
the Office. We started from the beginning, we break it down.
This was not my this is not a plug moment.
(44:19):
We were about to go there in a minute, but anyway,
go ahead. Now, what I was going to say is
Angela and I are doing this podcast and we have
to watch an episode the office and then we discuss it.
So I've been watching the show from the very beginning.
Had you watched the show since they aired? No, you
had not. I had seen a few here and there.
I had seen the dinner party. I had. I had
(44:41):
been in a trailer on a job and I had
a teeny tiny television mounted to the wall of my trailer.
It was so small. She's not joking right now. She
just held up her fingers and showed three inches. I
don't think the televison now, it's more like five inches.
It was smaller than a laptops screen. It was very tiny,
(45:01):
and it's so I was, so that's what she said.
I was so tickled by it that I took a
picture and I sent it to Steve and John and
Ed and Angela and all of us who had been
in that scene where we were laughing so hard at
Michael's tiny flat screen TV. And then that made me
want to watch that episode. So then I went and
(45:23):
watched the Dinner Party episode, and then a few examples
of things like that where you're flipping through and you
an episode comes on or something like that. But no,
I have not seen most of these episodes since they aired,
so it's been really cool for me. And I have
to say, I really get why people are so excited
(45:47):
about the show. Like, as I watch it again, I'm
really watching it almost as a fan, and it's weird
that I'm on it in some ways when I'm watching myself,
I've always thought it was weird. Is that a fact?
I don't know. But before I started doing that, I
(46:09):
was on Greg to do a reunion special or revived
the office in some way selfishly because I just want
to work with all you all again, and because I
know Steve has a really good idea, and I thought,
let's get Steve's idea going. Come on, Greg, come on, Greg,
you gotta do it. Well. Now that I've been rewatching
(46:30):
the show, I wrote Greg and email recently and I said, Greg, Um,
I don't think you should reopen the show. It's it
is so perfect just as it is, like, I don't
think we should now. I was such a champion for
doing it for so long and now I'm realizing, maybe
(46:51):
it's exactly perfect just as it is, and you don't
want to have this weird extra seven years later or
episode that we made. Um, I don't know. Well, here
you do have. Here's the beauty is of the ability
to edit out whatever I say right now. I have
(47:13):
no interest in it, in doing it in a reunion episode. Yes,
but have you heard Steve's idea. It's a great idea,
that has a good idea. What if we did it
in Scranton, Brian, what if that's the thing that we
come back for, is we shoot an episode finally in Scranton.
(47:33):
Steve's idea? Alright, Well, I'm tempting you. But at the
same time, I think the show is just perfect as
it is. Although we do have an unproduced episode pet Day.
There's one episode of the Office called pet Day. Well
it wasn't shot that we never shot. That's right. I
have the script. I have what you do. In fact,
(47:55):
I signed scripts, obviously to give away to charities. I
have a gigantic box of scripts that because we would
get multiple per week. It was not great for the environment,
but we would get and there in my garage and
boxes and I reached in and grabbed one and it
was pet Day, pet Day? And I thought, what if
I had signed that? And I mean, thank goodness, I
(48:15):
looked at what the title was, because that could have
been true. I could have gotten in trouble for that. Well.
I said to Greg, what if we do a special
where we just do a staged reading of pet Day
and we all come together and we read pet Day.
But wasn't there a reason we didn't do Pet Day?
Animal cruelty, I believe was the reason we didn't do
pet Day because there's like some awful bird death in
(48:38):
it or something I can't remember. A bird death and
a porcupine in Dwight's desk we did, and a throws
a cat a cat and one gets frozen. And no,
there's Greg must not like animals. Um, is there anything else,
(48:59):
anything else that you want covered that you feel like
we didn't? I mean, obviously there's so much. I know,
I know, I don't know you did, you were very good.
I can't think of anything, really, I think something that's
really interesting to talk about two Because you talk about
how there were like the theater people and the comedians,
(49:20):
and then there were the improv people. But There were
also all of these ways that we were weirdly connected,
like that Phillis and I both grew up in St. Louis,
as did Ken kuoppas he grew up in Belleville, Illinois,
which is basically St. Louis. And then also our a
d rusty Mahmud grew up in St. Louis. So there
(49:44):
were four of us St Louis in's. Then there were
a bunch of those Boston guys. You've got John and
Steve and b J and Mike Scher. Then the fact
that like b J and John went to the same
high school and I went to the You and Ed
went to the same high school. And Angela and Oscar
(50:04):
were in an improv group together, and she walked on
set and was like, oh my god, Oscar, you got
cast in this. It was a complete shock to her.
She'd done improv with Kate. So there were these ways
where we'd all been kind of circling each other in
this weird way and then all finally came together. There
were so many coincidences in how we were connected totally. Yes,
(50:29):
I remember shooting a scene for webisodes and was in
the annex camera on me. I was shooting a talking
head and suddenly I saw Ed Helms walking behind the
I was like, Ed, what what are you? And he
was there to meet with Greg and about joining the show.
This is between season two and three. Yeah, it's crazy. Um,
(50:53):
thank you so much. I love you, Brian. I appreciate
you coming and I hope this has been some fun.
I could talk for hours about our show. I love
that you're doing this because I want to hear what
everybody says. Ye, well, there you go. I love you,
I love you, Thank you. That is a rap on
(51:27):
Jenna Fisher here at the office. Deep dive Jenna, thank
you so much for sharing your time with us. I mean, look,
I didn't want to say this to your face, but
I think that we all know Kevin was the real
emotional core of the office. I mean, you can keep
thinking pay them, but I say, it's keV dog. But
(51:50):
you were so great here. I'm gonna let you have it.
I'll even forgive the fact that you're a Cardinals fan.
Go Dodgers listeners. Thank you so much for joining us,
even all your car those fans, and get ready because
next week. Oh it's the big one, folks, It's the
big Cone. Of the Big Cheese, the big guy upstairs,
(52:11):
Steve Correll, have a great week. The Office. Deep Dive
is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside
our executive producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer.
(52:33):
Our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor
is Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is
Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by
my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed
by seth Olandsky. Yeah. Hi, my name is Cassid Zachary
(53:09):
and I am April Callahan, and we are fashion historian
and co hosts and the creators of the podcast Dressed
the History of Fashion, which is dedicated to investigating the
significance of dress from throughout history and around the world,
and we are so excited to bring you a brand
new season celebrating groundbreaking fashion figures and exploring the history
(53:30):
of everything from courses to blue jeans. Dressed the History
of Fashion is available on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast,
or wherever else you listen to your favorite shows. New
episodes drop every Tuesday and Thursday. Hey, Dania Goodyear here.
Have you ever wondered how a true crime podcast like
Lost Hills gets made? How we unearthed secrets and tease
(53:52):
out the truth and deal with complicated characters while tackling
sensitive subjects like violence, trauma, and deception. Now's your chance
to find out. Join me and Jake Calpern, host of
Pushkin's Deep Cover podcast, on March sixteenth for a digital
conversation on true crime storytelling. Get your tickets now at
moment house dot com slash d c l H. That's
(54:15):
m O M E n t house dot com slash
d c l H. I'm Emilia on this podcast. I'm
taking you on a search, a search for love, hard
working Latina, but there were other reasons. I felt like
I couldn't always beat myself. My mom's in prison. This
(54:37):
is Crumbs, my love story. It's a show about the
things we set up for and the bits of ourselves
that make us who we are. Listen to Crumbs on
the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts.
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