October 26, 2021 • 46 mins
The man who always searched for the truth is back for round two of his interview. Director extraordinaire Ken Kwapis joins Brian in the studio to discuss why one should never write a complicated dialogue scene while people are playing volleyball, how he thought Brian’s basketball skills HAD to be visual effects, and the original ending for The Office that involved a very unsuspecting character (well, thing?).
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Black Effect presents. I didn't know. Maybe you didn't either,
But the history of black people ain't rooted in slavery.
Oh no, it's royalty, not despair. Beat out here and
every day in February, I will give you a black
history fact that I didn't know, and maybe you didn't either.
It's a rugged, ratchet, realistic look at history. Listen. So
(00:22):
I didn't know, maybe you didn't either. On the Black
Effect Podcast Network, our Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or
just wherever you get your podcast from. Hello, Hello, Hi,
Oh my god. I want to come through the screen
and hug you. Hey, everybody. Jessica's or here, also known
(00:44):
as Vanessa Abrahams on Gossip Grow. I am so excited
to share my new podcast with you guys. It's called
XO XO and it's a walk down memory lane all
about Gossip Grow. I'll chat with some of the cast
crew fans of the show, and I'm just so pumped
for you guys to go on this journey with me.
All right, swick, I've played Chuck Bass, Is this Michelle Trachtenberg.
I'll never tell o. Hey, I'm Taylor Mompson and I
(01:06):
played Jenny Humphrey. Hi, I'm sbashion Stan and I played
Carter Bason. That was one of the reasons I liked
the character Jenny so much is that she was very relatable.
The whole thing was such a choice for me to do,
and I was just so thankful that people responded the
way they did to what we were doing. This really
was just like wonderful. I like have like warm feelings inside.
(01:28):
I'm giving you air hugs. Listen to XO XO on
the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts. We've all felt left out, and for
people who moved to this country, that feeling lasts more
than a moment. We can change that. Learn how it
Belonging begins with us dot org. Brought to you by
(01:50):
the Ad Council. I'm Ken Kapas. I am a director.
I directed the pilot of the Office and many other episodes.
(02:12):
Hello listeners, it is another day and that means it's
time for another episode of the Office Deep Dive. As always,
I am your host, Brian Baumgartner. Today I am being
joined once again by our spectacular director Ken Kappas for
round two of our conversation, and this time we really
(02:36):
dive straight into his search for the truth, because that's
what it was right, the lengths he took to make
sure that the show felt real, felt spontaneous, felt improvised,
and that we as a cast felt like we really
were a part of the dunder Mifflin world. I am
(02:58):
just in awe of him. That being said, I do
want to get one thing straight, Ken, Well, he expressed
some doubts about my abilities in the basketball episode, season one,
episode five. For those of you who don't know, he
said that I was so good and made so many
(03:19):
shots in a row that it had to have been
visual effects. Well, sir, first of all, I'm flattered because
that's hilarious, but I hate to break it to you.
I am just that good. But enough about me. I
could talk about me all day. But since we're talking
about skills, Ken truly has so many of them. We
(03:42):
owe so much of the office to his vision and
his talent, and we were so lucky to have him
on our team. Without further ado, get ready to be
swept away into the wonderful, magical world of Ken koppas
Bubble and Squeak. I love it, Bubble and Squeak On
(04:10):
Bubble and Squeaker cookie every more left over from the
night before. Um, how do you feel I mean, because
you fully committed to the documentary concept, how do you
(04:33):
feel like that influenced the storytelling? Well? I think there.
I mean, there's a couple of things we did in
the pilot and and pretty much carried throughout the series.
But one of them was is that the ideas that
the camera is actually not always in the right place
for the scene because as a documentary filmmaker, I'm not
sure what the scene is. So that occasionally if we
(04:57):
made a decision, like if if Steve's character makes and
entrance from his office, that the camera might be over
near the water cooler, the last place you would really
put the camera to catch it good, and then Steve
would say something which would catch our attention. We'd have
to whip pan over to find him, and ideally by
the time we found him, he's finished saying whatever he
(05:17):
had to say, so that we end up landing on
him for a bit of dead air. That to me,
was one of the key strategies in how we we shot.
So the pilot in particular has these kind of wonderfully long,
weird pauses, and part of that is due to the
cinema verite style of shooting. When Greg and I held
(05:38):
the production meeting for the pilot, and Greg and I
had discussed this in advance, but I sort of announced
to the people at the production meeting, which includes all
the you know, the heads of the different departments make
a pair, camera, sound, etcetera, that things that in any
other show would get them fired are encouraged in this
(06:00):
of So, for instance, if you are a camera operator
and you pan past the subject and then have to
like sort of backtrack rather you know sloppily, that's acceptable
and actually not acceptable, it's good. So I think that
all of those things. We've never talked about it, but
hopefully what it did for the cast is make everyone
(06:21):
feel like they were on all the time. You know,
that wasn't my shot, your shot. It wasn't like, you know,
nobody knew when they might be the subject of the scene. Well,
and the other thing that you did. You know, traditionally
you have marks on the floor that tell the actors
where to go, and on the office. There were no marks.
There were no marks, and they're also in theory. There
(06:44):
was no regard for whether you were actually facing the
camera at certain times. You know, in a traditional you know,
multi camera comedy, everyone is presented in a very you know,
frontal view. But suddenly in our pilot, we were able
to do things like just kind of be you know,
long for long stretches on a profile, or not quite
(07:04):
see someone well. So, I mean, I do think we
Greg and I were very specific about scenes that were
more like you know, spy camera scenes. And I'm thinking
in the pilot, particularly of there's a wonderful scene towards
the end at the reception desk with Jim and Pam
and Roy. I think Pam actually leaves the reception desk
(07:26):
and there's just this long, long moment where like Roy
and Jim are just leaning and then Jim finally says
something really innocuous and royal like bolts out of there.
It's a very weird And so that's a scene where
those two characters are not aware that they're being filmed,
and we sort of hid behind a bar, not a bush,
(07:47):
but like a plant, and you know, I think that
that was a good example of particularly for a character
like Jim who's hyper aware of the camera, that we
get to catch him without you know, him being aware
of it. And I think even at the beginning, as
I recall, like Steve would have a look directly at
the lens and then a look at me standing next
(08:08):
to the camera, and I'm gonna have to like rack
my brain now a little bit. I think the idea
is if he looked at the camera, he was sort
of it was something he was doing as if playing
to the camera. But if he looked at me, it
was because he wanted he was worried that the camera
caught something that he didn't want to be seen. And
again I'm not sure exactly, but I know what you mean. Yes, well,
(08:29):
I want to skip ahead because you just brought this
up and kind of talk about probably the most famous
spice shot scene in the series. I told Jenna that
nothing could shut down production like a big Jim and
Pam moment. Like I was like, if you were scheduled
(08:49):
to work that day and you were like, oh, Jim
and Pam are gonna kiss. Oh, please shoot me out
before because they're gonna talk for a long time. Um,
but talk to me a little bit about how that moment.
What was that. My recollection was there was a lot
of conversation about that and capturing that spy shot of
them finally coming in it and doing that kiss. Well,
(09:11):
there was a lot of conversation. I think that John
and Jenna had a lot of uh, what's the right word. Well,
they were anxious about the scene. You know. I spoke
with Jenna about this about a year ago, and I
went back and looked at the shooting schedule for that
episode Casino Night, because I misremembered something. I thought that
(09:32):
we shot the kiss like at the very end of
the schedule, but in fact we didn't. We shot at
and I think the second last day of the schedule.
The last day was the night work the you know,
the exterior scene between Pam and Jim where they basically
break up. It's the penultimate scene before he comes back
in and kisses her. So it was just interesting to
me that for the two actors, they were playing the
(09:54):
outcome before they played the scene. That was interesting, and
obviously they played both scenes well. But in terms of
the camera placement, I definitely remember talking to Greg about,
you know, we wanted to a be hidden and we
wanted to find the furthest place to be and that
was that. You know, there's a little glass partition, you know,
(10:14):
kind of near where the water cooler is and we
just hid back there. To me, the most interesting thing
about the moment is the fact that if you shoot
a kiss, traditionally you want to be able to see
two faces. And I've you know, directed a few kisses
before and you and there's always like you Usually maybe
you'll put people in a kind of fifty fifty orientation
(10:36):
to the camera, or you have separate shots. But this show,
of course, that's not what we do. And I think
I don't remember if it was Greg's suggestion, or if
it if the actors came up with it or that,
or maybe they just happened. But we don't see Jenna's
reaction to the kiss. We see John and they kiss
and they break and I think they look at each
(10:57):
other for a beat and that's the end of the scene.
But I think one of the things I've often thought
about with that shot is as an audience, you get
the pleasure of being Pam. You're being looked at by Jim.
You you don't see her reactions, so you get to
as an audience kind of right it yourself. And I
(11:18):
think that shot and it's you know, very it's very simple,
But I think that's to me, the thing that's most
noteworthy about it is is is that the the person
who's surprised by the kiss, you don't see their face.
That's very interesting. It occurs to me too. And this
is probably more Greg. I'll just side and note that.
(11:40):
But you know the idea that because you guys were
so concerned about the reality and having it be in
a real place, happening at a real time, there was
an insistence that around the time the episode aired was
when this was happening. So if there weren't any episodes
(12:01):
airing over the summer, than the documentary crew was on
vacation and we didn't see that. And there was something
so compelling in the storytelling going from that kiss. Where
in Friends, right, Ross and Rachel kiss and then when
they come back, it's the moment immediately after they kiss,
whereas this when we come back again, Jim's gone, and
(12:23):
so it's about finding out everything gradually over time, what
happened and why he laughed and the fallout from the kiss.
I just you know what, it's great. I've never and
and yes, I mean I think that's kudos to Greg
and writing staff because what's nice about that is information
is not served up to you. You have to kind of,
(12:46):
you know, discover what's going on, work for it, to
have to work for it. And I think it makes
you a more attentive viewer, and I think it's more
gratifying as an audience member. You're kind of thrown into
the deep bend. Wait, what's going on? Why is Jim? What?
What desk is? Where is he? You know, Stanford what?
You know? Like it's like you get to kind of
you get to kind of uh, you know, do a
(13:06):
little detective work as you're watching the episode. You know,
one thing about that is it mimics what does happen
in our lives. We work with people and then they
go away, you know, they leave, they get another job,
they get married. So I feel like, I mean, I
think I've never talked to Greg about it, but I
think he was constantly trying to make sure that you know,
(13:27):
there was, you know, a sense of the unexpected. It's
a hard time for hiring, so you need a hiring
partner built for hard times. That's indeed. If you're hiring,
you need indeed because indeed is the hiring partner where
(13:49):
you can attract, interview, and hire all in one place,
and Indeed is the only job site where you're guaranteed
to find quality applications that meet your must have requirements,
or else you don't pay. Instead of spending hours on
multiple job sites hoping to find candidates with the right skills,
you need one hiring partner that can help you do
(14:11):
it all. Indeed partners with you on every step of
the hiring process. Find great talent through time saving tools
like Indeed, instant match, assessments and virtual interviews. With instant Match,
as soon as you sponsor a post, you get a
short list of quality candidates with resumes on Indeed that
match your job description, and you can invite them to
(14:34):
apply right away. Plus, you only pay for quality applications
that meet your must have requirements. Join more than three
million businesses worldwide that use Indeed to hire great talent fast.
Start hiring right now with a seventy five dollar sponsored
job credit to upgrade your job post at indeed dot
(14:54):
com slash office deep dive offer valid through March thirty one.
Go to Indeed dot Calm slash office deep dive to
claim your seventy five dollar credit before marche Indeed dot
com slash office deep dive. Terms and conditions apply. Need
to hire you need indeed. And we're live here outside
(15:16):
the Perez family home, just waiting for the And there
they go, almost on time. This morning. Mom is coming
out the front door, strong with a double arm kid carry.
Looks like Dad has the bags. Daughter is bringing up
the rear. Oh but the diaper bag wasn't closed. Diapers
and toys are everywhere. Oh but mom has just nailed
(15:37):
the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. And now
the eldest daughter, who looks to be about nine or ten,
has secured herself in the booster seat. Dad zips the
bag clothes and they're off. But looks like Mom doesn't
realize her coffee cup is still on the roof of
the car and there it goes. Ah, that's a shame
that mug was a fan favorite. Don't sweat the small stuff.
(16:00):
Just nailed the big stuff, like making sure your kids
are buckled correctly in the right seat for their agent's eyes.
Learn more at n h t s A dot gov
slash the Right Seat visits n dot gov slash the
Right Seat brought to you by NITZA and the ad Council.
Look for your children's eyes to see the true magic
of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You
(16:21):
look and see a tree, They see the wrinkled face
of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They
see treasuring pebbles, they see a windy path that could
lead to adventure, and they see you. They're fearless. Guide.
Is this fascinating world? Find a forest near you and
start exploring and discover the forest dot Org Brought to
(16:41):
you by the United States Forest Service and the AD Council.
How do you feel like the directing the show changed
as the show continued. Well, I mean I didn't work
(17:03):
on every season, and I took a long break, and
and I will say that whatever season I was working in,
I guess I felt like I just naturally circled back
to those impulses that we had during the pilot. Not
because I was trying to, like, you know, make a
(17:24):
point like let's remember what we did, And it was
more like that's all I knew what to do, so
that even though occasionally I would watch an episode and
you know, maybe it was covered in a slightly more
conventional way than I might have, I think my instinct
when I you know, when I did direct was to
try and um, just kind of respect them the original
(17:44):
impulses and and again respect you know, Greg's original ideas
to making things a little dirtier a little bit. Yeah,
and and by the way, it's it's easy to forget
those things. You go away, you work on a different
show or a different film that has a whole other style,
and then you have to come I can unlearn some things.
But I feel like, yeah, I mean, I definitely remember.
(18:05):
I mean along the way, like shooting the hundredth episode
Company Picnic, and there was a lot of it was
actually a complicated episode for a lot of reasons, including
I would just say to all writers, the writer producers
don't write complicated dialogue scenes while people are playing volleyball.
If there's one thing I learned doing this show, no
(18:29):
volleyball while talking. But I remember just feeling like I
had to kind of again unlearned things I was doing
on different films and shows and kind of go back
to kind of the show's roots. So I hope that
that was a good thing for everyone to you know that,
But you know, but that's that was just my natural
(18:50):
instinct was to kind of circle back to the beginning absolutely,
Did you ever have conversations with a directors who are
about to work on who maybe hadn't been on the
show yet. Did you remember talking to anybody or get
offering any advice on that or well? Greg and I
did when he you know, reag and I definitely did.
(19:12):
The first episode Greg directed is one of the very
best ones. You know, Basketball, Yeah, it's fantastic. But by
the way, Brian, Okay, so I when I first saw
the cut of Basketball, I assumed that was a visual effect. No,
you're doing because how much there's like six in a row?
I think there's thirteen on the TVD can there is?
(19:34):
There were no in a row? And literally when I
saw it, I go how how? I literally my mind
went to how did they get the money for that effect?
They hired me? Really chiefly? Um, yeah, no, that was me.
Um you know before when you were talking also about
(19:55):
about having to re remember things. You know, Kevin started
to into the lens quite a bit as the series
extended out, Um, when he had secrets, when he was
being childish about something. And I remember right when the
show ended and starting to work on other shows and going,
oh god, I can't look in the lens. What am
(20:17):
I doing looking at the lens? You're not allowed to
do that any on the other show. Come on, get
it together. Um, so yes, I know what you mean.
I definitely remember a feeling. Um, what's the right way
to put it, like, you know, like the prodigal son
or something, that I've been away and come back and
would I be accepted? Oh my gosh, it was truly.
(20:40):
I always remember. I always remember how happy everyone was
when you came back. I'm glad the but you know,
I it's funny. I was thinking about something I did
in the in the early episodes. I don't know if
other directors did it. I think it ended, but that
(21:00):
that was the idea that during our you know, talking
head interviews, that I used to sit next to the camera. Yes,
and I think that that was not something that other
directors did as much, or maybe not at all. I
never talked to anyone about it, but I remember like
coming back after a few seasons, and definitely at the
towards at the end to that, Like you know, Jenna
(21:22):
thought it was strange suddenly that I was there sitting
at the camera again because it had been a while
since I done. Yes, well, it's it's funny. I was
always I was of two minds because you're such an
open person and you and I believe that the energy
that you you give out, you're creating an environment, and
(21:46):
you're wanting as the interviewer to just be present for
the actor who's talking. So for me, if there was
someone there who was you know, I'm picking up, you know,
very concerned about the words, were thinking about something else
and looking down, that wasn't helpful to have that. It
was way easier for me to look at a mark
(22:08):
than to look at somebody who was doing something that
wasn't helpful to me. I know. There were also occasions,
especially with some of our writer directors um that could
not stop laughing. So it was way better for them
get them in the corner or in the other room, UM,
to be right there. I do remember at the beginning
(22:28):
of the series that one of the things, and I'm
not a writer, well I don't fancy myself a writer,
but I remember hoping that we could actually have a
conversation that would lead into the scripted talking headline. And
that was something you know, we did on occasion. And
again I make no claim of being able to improv
(22:49):
but it was like, what could I set up that
would kind of lead to the line, Yes, and that
that you know, but I do think after a while
that wasn't necessary, but it was a fun thing to
do at the top of the series. Absolutely. I do remember,
by the way, when you were talking about being trapped
at work, and now I remember something Greg and I discussed,
and that was where those interviews would be shot. So
(23:10):
they're generally two places, and one angle, of course, is
each actor sits with the glass facing the bullpen behind them,
and the other places with your back to the wall
the opposite wall. And I remember Greg very specifically saying
he loved the idea that that frame would have a
little sliver of the window in it, but just a
(23:33):
little bit, because there's no reason to see that you
could get out. And those are and and I remember
that see all a lot of where John's John shots
are well, I think and I had totally forgotten about this,
that John's was toward the outside because he dreamt of
getting out. Absolutely, that was absolutely part of that was
(23:57):
the subtext of I mean, it wasn't his sub text,
but that was Greg's idea that you know, I love
that that there was enough, there was something that objectively
told the story of his hopes and his dreams. You know,
whereas Kevin, most of the characters was shot so you
could only see the bullpen the office because that's where
(24:19):
they were going to be for effort. Yes, I remember
that that's actually and yet that angle on John only
featured a little bit of that window. Exactly. How was
shooting outside of the bullpen? I mean, we have these
physical barriers that exist within the office. How was moving
outside as as we started to you know, especially after
(24:42):
the first two seasons and going more to locations, did
that create more issues to keep the style and the
look of the show the same? Or let me I'll
just speak about one episode, and that's Booze Cruise because
obviously we sure we shot on a real boat where
were we can't long be Long Beach. And one of
(25:02):
the things I loved is and I didn't choose the boat,
Gregg chose the boat, but the boat for me was
like very claustrophobic. I felt like we were it was
like just dunder Mifflin floating in the water. I mean
I felt like everything about that space was very tight, constricted.
It was hard to shoot in its kind of again,
(25:23):
it sort of recreated the conditions of the workplace on
the water right, So in a funny way. I like
the fact that, you know, sometimes we'd go on location
and we'd basically be in the same kind of place. Yes,
we're on vacation for a fun night out and we're
just actually in the office again. Um well, booze cruise.
(25:45):
The seven seconds of silence that happened between Jim and Pam.
Was that an organic moment that happened. Did you have
to fight for that time of silence or I don't know,
Just talk me through that a little bit, like the
shooting of it and or the decision to allow it
to stay in. I mean, the length of the silence
(26:07):
was not something we planned obviously to the second, but
I think you know, John and Jenna both knew that,
you know, there were no rules about pace, and so
it was not objectionable to you know, let the moment linger.
I don't remember when we shot it feeling like, oh
my god, this is it. We've broken the record for
(26:29):
longest moment around, of course, but I do remember mostly
that it was that it felt very truthful. It could
have been half that length. It didn't really matter. It
was you know, it just felt very truthful. And I
turned in my cut and it probably worked with Greg
on the cut, but it was Greg who ultimately, you know,
(26:51):
fought to keep it in at that length. I only
hope that by that point in the in the series
it wasn't that big a fight because it was clear
what we were doing, and what we were doing was compelling.
For me. It's that classic thing of you know, if
you're involved, it doesn't you don't feel that the time passing.
(27:11):
You know, you're just you're involved, you know. And and
and for those two actors, again, they were just so
invested in that moment. I don't think they had a
clue that they were, you know, stretching the limits of
what's acceptable on a broadcast our television. Right. Maybe they were,
Maybe they were. Hi. I'm Glory Adam, host of Well
(27:43):
Read Black Girl. Each week, I sit in close conversation
with one of my favorite authors of color and share
stories about how they found their voice, hone their craft,
and navigated the publishing world, and composed some of the
most beautiful and meaningful words I've ever read. We journey
together through the cultural moment where our culture and literature
(28:07):
collide and pay homage to the women whose books we
grew up reading. And of course I check in with
members of the Well Read Black Girl book Club. It's
a literary kickback you never knew you needed, and you're
all invited to join the club. So tell your friends
to tell their friends so we can be friends who
(28:28):
love books. Listen to Well Read Black Girl on the
I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts. From the creator of The Bright Sessions, comes
a new fiction podcast for all ages. Jump back to
and follow maxim Miles as she starts high school in
(28:48):
the picturess town of Hastings, New Hampshire. Fall is the
season in which this small town shines apple cider, pumpkin
patches farmers markets. It's idyllic for adults and boring for Max,
But suddenly Max's school year starts to look a bit
more interesting when a fellow student vanishes. With the help
of her Misinthropp, the classmate Ross, Max starts to look
(29:09):
into the disappearance. Her investigation draws her deep into the
dark woods around Hastings, and even deeper into the secrets
and lies. The course of the veins of this sleepy town,
This New y A mystery from writer director Lauren Chippen,
is an audio drama with heart and wit that involves
the audience in a way no fiction podcast ever has.
Listen to Maxi Miles and the I Heart Radio app,
(29:30):
Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. If
I could be you and you could be me for
just one hour, if you could find a way to
get inside each other's mind. Walk a mile in my shoes,
Waco mile in my shoes, walcome mile in my mind shoes.
(29:52):
We've all felt left out, and for some that feeling
lasts more than a moment. We can change that, Learn
how it belonging. Begins of us dot org. Brought to
you by the ad Council. Welcome out in the Shop.
(30:19):
So Greg approached you about coming back for the finale,
or he asked you, or how did that come about?
He asked me to come back for the finale. It
had been two or three seasons since I worked on
the show, but I think Greg wanted to create a
sense of coming full circle and returning to the show's origins.
(30:40):
And I also was a little daunted by the fact
that and this is a good thing that so many
of the characters, so many of the characters who began
the series, you know, in secondary roles, everybody's role had
grown and and and everybody had a complicated story to tell,
and uh, how are we going to do that? Well,
(31:03):
it took longer than a normal show, that's for sure.
It's like a feature length finality. How involved were you
leading up to the table read? You know, the table
read became a very big deal, as you recall, with
a humongous audience in this giant auditorium on some location.
I can't even remember where it was. But here's how
(31:25):
I I wasn't. Here's what happened with the table reading
is you know, I I was used to reading the
scene description, and so I just sort of casually said
to Greg, would you like me to read the scene description?
And he said absolutely not. I thought, WHOA, Okay, I
don't need to read it. Little did I realize what
he was planning. He was planning this sort of table
(31:47):
reading extravag answer, yes, yes, had you read it before?
Oh yeah, I definitely, because we none of us had
really no, I mean we had the scripts delivered. I mean,
if some people did it was because they had a
soft morning, you know. By by later in the seasons,
we were not. And it wasn't a product of them
(32:07):
keeping it a secret. They just they were working and
we were shooting, and then suddenly it would be table
read day and there would be an episode in the
in this trailer. Well, I definitely I read the finale,
and I was also part of the discussions about Steve's
cameo appearance, right, I guess I don't know if you
could call it a cameo appearance, his return, yes, and
(32:30):
how we were planning to keep it a secret. It's
still remarkable to me that it was kept a secret,
considering the fact that he, you know, his appearance in
the finale is at a wedding where they were like,
you know a lot of people. Yes, So I don't
it doesn't make any sense to me that it was
kept secret, but it was. I will say that I
(32:52):
was pestered by different news people and uh, I honed
my you know, fibbing skills quite well. Well, I somehow
knew the day before, or a couple of days before,
I knew that it was coming. Why did you feel
that was important for him to come back, or did
(33:14):
you well, I mean, aside from the just you know,
the kind of excitement getting the whole gang back together again.
I mean, I feel like it it sort of speaks
a lot to Michael's character that he would show up
for the wedding. Just emotionally, it felt like where Michael was.
I mean that Michael's evolution over the course of the series,
(33:36):
it made perfect sense that he wasn't going to miss
that absolutely. Why do you think that the office has
not just maintained, but why is the show more popular
now than it was even when it aired? What is
it about the show that you think you know that
so many people respond to. Yeah, I wonder if all
(34:00):
there were new Let me think about that. I have
a go. That's a good question. Oh, I have an answer.
I feel like the continuing popularity of the show has
a lot to do with the fact that most of
us do work in really dreary jobs and feel trapped
in the workplace, and I feel like, in a funny way,
(34:23):
the show really honors that experience. And uh, I speak
very personally. My you know, I have a brother who
is younger than me, who works at a store in
our hometown, and when you go in and you know,
behind the counter of the store are all the office
bobble heads, all of them. And I think in a
(34:44):
weird way, it's less about the fact that I worked
on the show and more about the fact that working
people connect with these characters. Let me ask you this,
do you think the office contributed to or the culture
sort of at the time and reality television started to
become larger, and here we were doing a scripted television
(35:08):
show to have it attempt to be done really, I mean,
Randall Einhorn and Mattszone where reality TV camera people. I
don't know. I just there's something interesting there to me
about that reality TV started happening, you know, unmasked at
that time, and here we were a scripted comedy show
(35:31):
attempting to do the same thing. I don't know. I
will say that a lot of people you know, that
I talked to about the show assumed that it was improvised, right,
And are they're surprised when I say it was actually
very carefully scripted. Obviously scripted to sound you know, off
the cuff at times, but it wasn't a show like
(35:52):
imagine crib. Your enthusiasm is that I've never worked on it,
but I imagine it's mostly improvised or Christopher Guests films,
which are remarkable, But the Office was the opposite. It
was very and I hate the word format it so
I won't use it. But it was a very well
crafted Each week was a well crafted script. So I
feel like in a way it probably fooled people and
(36:14):
it may have created a you know, it may have
said an example that other people followed in the wrong
ways far as something, because it was actually very much
about you know, there's so much good writing craft going on,
and I think the fact that people were fooled into
thinking it was spontaneous or improvised as a tribute to
how well written it was written and directed. Yes, absolutely. Um,
(36:38):
what are you most proud of about your contribution to
the show or the show itself. I'm very proud of
the fact that there were a lot of naysayers at
the beginning. There are a lot of people who said
this will fail, and that it didn't fail. Actually it
(37:04):
it succeeded, but it succeeded on its own terms, and
that's what I'm proud of. That's so great. Put on
your head phones for one second, Hey, will you play
that clip? I thought it was weird when you picked
us to make a documentary, But all in all, I
(37:25):
think an ordinary paper company like dunder Mifflin was a
great subject for a documentary. There's a lot of beauty
and ordinary things. Isn't that kind of the point? Oh? Yeah,
that is the point. That's why it's continued to be popular. Okay,
(37:48):
So well, I mean that, I mean to me, what
that says is that's what Greg thought. The point was,
what do you think you think beauty and the ordinary? Yeah,
I mean I also feel like they they you know,
just as a director, it was such a pleasure and
a privilege to kind of do something that didn't go
down the middle of the road. And I think audiences
(38:11):
respect that, and I love that about the show. I
actually do remember a different ending to the finale as
I recall. The original ending was, you know, the night before,
or rather the night of the story, the story that
all the characters decide they need to take the plant,
(38:32):
planty plant that's in the bullpen, that's been in the
bullpen for nine seasons, like sad looking plant, and everybody, somebody,
maybe I don't know, is a Kevin. Somebody makes a
suggestion that Planting needs to be liberated. Planting needs to escape,
and so everyone marches out of the office with a
(38:54):
two or three of the characters carrying planty, and everyone's chanting, Planty, Planty.
The entire ensemble then goes outside of the building in
the parking lot in front of under Mifflin's building, and
they plant planting. And the original ending, as Greg and
I discussed, was that, you know, everyone kind of wanders away.
(39:17):
Everyone's been drinking, and everyone's you know, feeling a little sad,
but in festive, and we hold on this empty parking
lot with the plant newly planted, the one that was
in dunder Mifflin is now outside. And as I recall,
Greg's original plan was that there'd be a dissolved through
to the next morning, and you just see the empty
parking lot at dawn with this plant in its new home. Fascinating.
(39:42):
I totally forgot that. Yeah, that's great, and um, I'm
not surprised that Greg decided to end with Pam's drawing.
I mean, it's fantastic, it's wonderful, and and yes, Pam's
final speech about finding the beauty in the ordinary is
certainly it could not be a better summation statement. But
(40:06):
going back to the offbeatness of the show, I must
say I loved the idea of a show that ended
with a shot of an empty parking lot and a
plant plant. It's amazing. That's amazing. Well, we you know,
I talked to Jenna some about it, and you know,
(40:27):
I was saying to her like if the office was
a was a being a person or that Pam was
clearly the heart of the show. Obviously, she's you know,
has a love interest with Jim Dwight describes her as
his best friend um in the end, and you know,
she's the one that has the last moment with Michael
(40:50):
when he's leaving, and it's interesting that it it goes
back to her. I do think she was the emotional
heart of the show. Well, you know, I mean, I
guess the only thing I would add to that is
the show is a comedy, but within it is a
(41:10):
romantic story. And the romantic story is not played for laughs.
The romantic story is grounded and real and in a
very you know, old fashioned sense. This is a show
with clowns and lovers. Yes, and a different show is different,
you know, a wonderful show like Friends, the romantic storylines
are funny. But in the office, Pam and Jim, we
(41:35):
don't love them because of the laughs. We love them
because of how you know, grounded and real that relationship
is well. And we couldn't because both Jenna and John
aren't funny, so we wouldn't be able, we wouldn't be
able to Thank goodness, I wasn't written that. I didn't
say though, because um, I just so appreciate you being Oh,
(41:58):
I mean, I am so on heard that you gave
us any time, and I just want you to know,
just watching things through again and just you as a person,
I love you, and I just I want you to
know how much I respect you and give you full
credit for the world that was created on the office
with Greg, I love you too, and I miss you,
(42:19):
my girl. It's been so I'm just so excited that
you're doing this too. And it was also it's so
comfortable to talk to you about this good and I
felt like like, let's just talk about let's just talk
about exactly. Um, thanks so much. Oh my gosh, well
(42:48):
you heard it here, folks. Instead of talking about the
beauty of ordinary things, I could have been talking about
the beauty of planting this whole time, and you know what,
maybe that's not such a bad idea. Ken, thank you
so much for taking the time to come talk to me.
I so appreciate it. And to all of my listeners
(43:11):
you know this, I appreciate you as well. Make sure
to tune in next week or another behind the scenes
look at the show in a brand new interview with
editor extraordinarieror Dave Rogers. Oh and don't forget you can
pre order our very new and very exciting book, Welcome
(43:33):
to dunder Mifflin, The Ultimate Oral History of the Office,
on Amazon right now. Trust me, you are not going
to want to miss it. But in the meantime, I
just need you to do one thing. Have a fan
freakytastic week. The Office. Deep Dive is hosted and executive
(43:58):
produced by me Brian Gartner, alongside our executive producer Langley.
Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer. Our producers for this
episode are Liz Hayes and Diego Tapia. My main man
in the booth is Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble
and Squeak, performed by my great friend Creed Bratton, and
the episode was mixed by seth Olandsky. Hey, it's de Lieva.
(44:43):
I'm here to tell you about my brand new podcast,
De Lipa At your service. I'll be sitting down with
the world's most inspiring minds to uncover what makes them
take and what they've learned from the obstacles life has
thrown at them, including Sir Elton John. After a lot
of upsets, a lot of disappointments, a lot of betrayals,
It's turned out to be the most wonderful life right
now that I could have ever imagined. Listen to do
(45:05):
Ali for at your service on the I Heart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Mama, what
does the chickens say? Uh? Draft? Draft? Really? Giraffe? Giraffe.
(45:25):
You're not gonna get it all right. Just make sure
you know the big stuff, like making sure your kids
are buckled correctly in the right seat for their agent's eyes.
Get it right visits n h S a dot gov
slash the Right Seat brought to you by the National
Highway Traffic Safety Administration in the AD Council. Did you
know that on the day Dr King was shot, the
all black security detail normally assigned to him was called off.
(45:49):
They're the ones who would not allow him to stay
at any hotel with balconies. Did you ever asked what
this was all about? What we pold? This is the
MLK tapes. The first episodes are available now. Listen on
the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
(46:10):
get your podcasts.
The Black Effect presents. I didn't know. Maybe you didn't either,
But the history of black people ain't rooted in slavery.
Oh no, it's royalty, not despair. Beat out here and
every day in February, I will give you a black
history fact that I didn't know, and maybe you didn't either.
It's a rugged, ratchet, realistic look at history. Listen. So
(00:22):
I didn't know, maybe you didn't either. On the Black
Effect Podcast Network, our Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or
just wherever you get your podcast from. Hello, Hello, Hi,
Oh my god. I want to come through the screen
and hug you. Hey, everybody. Jessica's or here, also known
(00:44):
as Vanessa Abrahams on Gossip Grow. I am so excited
to share my new podcast with you guys. It's called
XO XO and it's a walk down memory lane all
about Gossip Grow. I'll chat with some of the cast
crew fans of the show, and I'm just so pumped
for you guys to go on this journey with me.
All right, swick, I've played Chuck Bass, Is this Michelle Trachtenberg.
I'll never tell o. Hey, I'm Taylor Mompson and I
(01:06):
played Jenny Humphrey. Hi, I'm sbashion Stan and I played
Carter Bason. That was one of the reasons I liked
the character Jenny so much is that she was very relatable.
The whole thing was such a choice for me to do,
and I was just so thankful that people responded the
way they did to what we were doing. This really
was just like wonderful. I like have like warm feelings inside.
(01:28):
I'm giving you air hugs. Listen to XO XO on
the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts. We've all felt left out, and for
people who moved to this country, that feeling lasts more
than a moment. We can change that. Learn how it
Belonging begins with us dot org. Brought to you by
(01:50):
the Ad Council. I'm Ken Kapas. I am a director.
I directed the pilot of the Office and many other episodes.
(02:12):
Hello listeners, it is another day and that means it's
time for another episode of the Office Deep Dive. As always,
I am your host, Brian Baumgartner. Today I am being
joined once again by our spectacular director Ken Kappas for
round two of our conversation, and this time we really
(02:36):
dive straight into his search for the truth, because that's
what it was right, the lengths he took to make
sure that the show felt real, felt spontaneous, felt improvised,
and that we as a cast felt like we really
were a part of the dunder Mifflin world. I am
(02:58):
just in awe of him. That being said, I do
want to get one thing straight, Ken, Well, he expressed
some doubts about my abilities in the basketball episode, season one,
episode five. For those of you who don't know, he
said that I was so good and made so many
(03:19):
shots in a row that it had to have been
visual effects. Well, sir, first of all, I'm flattered because
that's hilarious, but I hate to break it to you.
I am just that good. But enough about me. I
could talk about me all day. But since we're talking
about skills, Ken truly has so many of them. We
(03:42):
owe so much of the office to his vision and
his talent, and we were so lucky to have him
on our team. Without further ado, get ready to be
swept away into the wonderful, magical world of Ken koppas
Bubble and Squeak. I love it, Bubble and Squeak On
(04:10):
Bubble and Squeaker cookie every more left over from the
night before. Um, how do you feel I mean, because
you fully committed to the documentary concept, how do you
(04:33):
feel like that influenced the storytelling? Well? I think there.
I mean, there's a couple of things we did in
the pilot and and pretty much carried throughout the series.
But one of them was is that the ideas that
the camera is actually not always in the right place
for the scene because as a documentary filmmaker, I'm not
sure what the scene is. So that occasionally if we
(04:57):
made a decision, like if if Steve's character makes and
entrance from his office, that the camera might be over
near the water cooler, the last place you would really
put the camera to catch it good, and then Steve
would say something which would catch our attention. We'd have
to whip pan over to find him, and ideally by
the time we found him, he's finished saying whatever he
(05:17):
had to say, so that we end up landing on
him for a bit of dead air. That to me,
was one of the key strategies in how we we shot.
So the pilot in particular has these kind of wonderfully long,
weird pauses, and part of that is due to the
cinema verite style of shooting. When Greg and I held
(05:38):
the production meeting for the pilot, and Greg and I
had discussed this in advance, but I sort of announced
to the people at the production meeting, which includes all
the you know, the heads of the different departments make
a pair, camera, sound, etcetera, that things that in any
other show would get them fired are encouraged in this
(06:00):
of So, for instance, if you are a camera operator
and you pan past the subject and then have to
like sort of backtrack rather you know sloppily, that's acceptable
and actually not acceptable, it's good. So I think that
all of those things. We've never talked about it, but
hopefully what it did for the cast is make everyone
(06:21):
feel like they were on all the time. You know,
that wasn't my shot, your shot. It wasn't like, you know,
nobody knew when they might be the subject of the scene. Well,
and the other thing that you did. You know, traditionally
you have marks on the floor that tell the actors
where to go, and on the office. There were no marks.
There were no marks, and they're also in theory. There
(06:44):
was no regard for whether you were actually facing the
camera at certain times. You know, in a traditional you know,
multi camera comedy, everyone is presented in a very you know,
frontal view. But suddenly in our pilot, we were able
to do things like just kind of be you know,
long for long stretches on a profile, or not quite
(07:04):
see someone well. So, I mean, I do think we
Greg and I were very specific about scenes that were
more like you know, spy camera scenes. And I'm thinking
in the pilot, particularly of there's a wonderful scene towards
the end at the reception desk with Jim and Pam
and Roy. I think Pam actually leaves the reception desk
(07:26):
and there's just this long, long moment where like Roy
and Jim are just leaning and then Jim finally says
something really innocuous and royal like bolts out of there.
It's a very weird And so that's a scene where
those two characters are not aware that they're being filmed,
and we sort of hid behind a bar, not a bush,
(07:47):
but like a plant, and you know, I think that
that was a good example of particularly for a character
like Jim who's hyper aware of the camera, that we
get to catch him without you know, him being aware
of it. And I think even at the beginning, as
I recall, like Steve would have a look directly at
the lens and then a look at me standing next
(08:08):
to the camera, and I'm gonna have to like rack
my brain now a little bit. I think the idea
is if he looked at the camera, he was sort
of it was something he was doing as if playing
to the camera. But if he looked at me, it
was because he wanted he was worried that the camera
caught something that he didn't want to be seen. And
again I'm not sure exactly, but I know what you mean. Yes, well,
(08:29):
I want to skip ahead because you just brought this
up and kind of talk about probably the most famous
spice shot scene in the series. I told Jenna that
nothing could shut down production like a big Jim and
Pam moment. Like I was like, if you were scheduled
(08:49):
to work that day and you were like, oh, Jim
and Pam are gonna kiss. Oh, please shoot me out
before because they're gonna talk for a long time. Um,
but talk to me a little bit about how that moment.
What was that. My recollection was there was a lot
of conversation about that and capturing that spy shot of
them finally coming in it and doing that kiss. Well,
(09:11):
there was a lot of conversation. I think that John
and Jenna had a lot of uh, what's the right word. Well,
they were anxious about the scene. You know. I spoke
with Jenna about this about a year ago, and I
went back and looked at the shooting schedule for that
episode Casino Night, because I misremembered something. I thought that
(09:32):
we shot the kiss like at the very end of
the schedule, but in fact we didn't. We shot at
and I think the second last day of the schedule.
The last day was the night work the you know,
the exterior scene between Pam and Jim where they basically
break up. It's the penultimate scene before he comes back
in and kisses her. So it was just interesting to
me that for the two actors, they were playing the
(09:54):
outcome before they played the scene. That was interesting, and
obviously they played both scenes well. But in terms of
the camera placement, I definitely remember talking to Greg about,
you know, we wanted to a be hidden and we
wanted to find the furthest place to be and that
was that. You know, there's a little glass partition, you know,
(10:14):
kind of near where the water cooler is and we
just hid back there. To me, the most interesting thing
about the moment is the fact that if you shoot
a kiss, traditionally you want to be able to see
two faces. And I've you know, directed a few kisses
before and you and there's always like you Usually maybe
you'll put people in a kind of fifty fifty orientation
(10:36):
to the camera, or you have separate shots. But this show,
of course, that's not what we do. And I think
I don't remember if it was Greg's suggestion, or if
it if the actors came up with it or that,
or maybe they just happened. But we don't see Jenna's
reaction to the kiss. We see John and they kiss
and they break and I think they look at each
(10:57):
other for a beat and that's the end of the scene.
But I think one of the things I've often thought
about with that shot is as an audience, you get
the pleasure of being Pam. You're being looked at by Jim.
You you don't see her reactions, so you get to
as an audience kind of right it yourself. And I
(11:18):
think that shot and it's you know, very it's very simple,
But I think that's to me, the thing that's most
noteworthy about it is is is that the the person
who's surprised by the kiss, you don't see their face.
That's very interesting. It occurs to me too. And this
is probably more Greg. I'll just side and note that.
(11:40):
But you know the idea that because you guys were
so concerned about the reality and having it be in
a real place, happening at a real time, there was
an insistence that around the time the episode aired was
when this was happening. So if there weren't any episodes
(12:01):
airing over the summer, than the documentary crew was on
vacation and we didn't see that. And there was something
so compelling in the storytelling going from that kiss. Where
in Friends, right, Ross and Rachel kiss and then when
they come back, it's the moment immediately after they kiss,
whereas this when we come back again, Jim's gone, and
(12:23):
so it's about finding out everything gradually over time, what
happened and why he laughed and the fallout from the kiss.
I just you know what, it's great. I've never and
and yes, I mean I think that's kudos to Greg
and writing staff because what's nice about that is information
is not served up to you. You have to kind of,
(12:46):
you know, discover what's going on, work for it, to
have to work for it. And I think it makes
you a more attentive viewer, and I think it's more
gratifying as an audience member. You're kind of thrown into
the deep bend. Wait, what's going on? Why is Jim? What?
What desk is? Where is he? You know, Stanford what?
You know? Like it's like you get to kind of
you get to kind of uh, you know, do a
(13:06):
little detective work as you're watching the episode. You know,
one thing about that is it mimics what does happen
in our lives. We work with people and then they
go away, you know, they leave, they get another job,
they get married. So I feel like, I mean, I
think I've never talked to Greg about it, but I
think he was constantly trying to make sure that you know,
(13:27):
there was, you know, a sense of the unexpected. It's
a hard time for hiring, so you need a hiring
partner built for hard times. That's indeed. If you're hiring,
you need indeed because indeed is the hiring partner where
(13:49):
you can attract, interview, and hire all in one place,
and Indeed is the only job site where you're guaranteed
to find quality applications that meet your must have requirements,
or else you don't pay. Instead of spending hours on
multiple job sites hoping to find candidates with the right skills,
you need one hiring partner that can help you do
(14:11):
it all. Indeed partners with you on every step of
the hiring process. Find great talent through time saving tools
like Indeed, instant match, assessments and virtual interviews. With instant Match,
as soon as you sponsor a post, you get a
short list of quality candidates with resumes on Indeed that
match your job description, and you can invite them to
(14:34):
apply right away. Plus, you only pay for quality applications
that meet your must have requirements. Join more than three
million businesses worldwide that use Indeed to hire great talent fast.
Start hiring right now with a seventy five dollar sponsored
job credit to upgrade your job post at indeed dot
(14:54):
com slash office deep dive offer valid through March thirty one.
Go to Indeed dot Calm slash office deep dive to
claim your seventy five dollar credit before marche Indeed dot
com slash office deep dive. Terms and conditions apply. Need
to hire you need indeed. And we're live here outside
(15:16):
the Perez family home, just waiting for the And there
they go, almost on time. This morning. Mom is coming
out the front door, strong with a double arm kid carry.
Looks like Dad has the bags. Daughter is bringing up
the rear. Oh but the diaper bag wasn't closed. Diapers
and toys are everywhere. Oh but mom has just nailed
(15:37):
the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. And now
the eldest daughter, who looks to be about nine or ten,
has secured herself in the booster seat. Dad zips the
bag clothes and they're off. But looks like Mom doesn't
realize her coffee cup is still on the roof of
the car and there it goes. Ah, that's a shame
that mug was a fan favorite. Don't sweat the small stuff.
(16:00):
Just nailed the big stuff, like making sure your kids
are buckled correctly in the right seat for their agent's eyes.
Learn more at n h t s A dot gov
slash the Right Seat visits n dot gov slash the
Right Seat brought to you by NITZA and the ad Council.
Look for your children's eyes to see the true magic
of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You
(16:21):
look and see a tree, They see the wrinkled face
of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They
see treasuring pebbles, they see a windy path that could
lead to adventure, and they see you. They're fearless. Guide.
Is this fascinating world? Find a forest near you and
start exploring and discover the forest dot Org Brought to
(16:41):
you by the United States Forest Service and the AD Council.
How do you feel like the directing the show changed
as the show continued. Well, I mean I didn't work
(17:03):
on every season, and I took a long break, and
and I will say that whatever season I was working in,
I guess I felt like I just naturally circled back
to those impulses that we had during the pilot. Not
because I was trying to, like, you know, make a
(17:24):
point like let's remember what we did, And it was
more like that's all I knew what to do, so
that even though occasionally I would watch an episode and
you know, maybe it was covered in a slightly more
conventional way than I might have, I think my instinct
when I you know, when I did direct was to
try and um, just kind of respect them the original
(17:44):
impulses and and again respect you know, Greg's original ideas
to making things a little dirtier a little bit. Yeah,
and and by the way, it's it's easy to forget
those things. You go away, you work on a different
show or a different film that has a whole other style,
and then you have to come I can unlearn some things.
But I feel like, yeah, I mean, I definitely remember.
(18:05):
I mean along the way, like shooting the hundredth episode
Company Picnic, and there was a lot of it was
actually a complicated episode for a lot of reasons, including
I would just say to all writers, the writer producers
don't write complicated dialogue scenes while people are playing volleyball.
If there's one thing I learned doing this show, no
(18:29):
volleyball while talking. But I remember just feeling like I
had to kind of again unlearned things I was doing
on different films and shows and kind of go back
to kind of the show's roots. So I hope that
that was a good thing for everyone to you know that,
But you know, but that's that was just my natural
(18:50):
instinct was to kind of circle back to the beginning absolutely,
Did you ever have conversations with a directors who are
about to work on who maybe hadn't been on the
show yet. Did you remember talking to anybody or get
offering any advice on that or well? Greg and I
did when he you know, reag and I definitely did.
(19:12):
The first episode Greg directed is one of the very
best ones. You know, Basketball, Yeah, it's fantastic. But by
the way, Brian, Okay, so I when I first saw
the cut of Basketball, I assumed that was a visual effect. No,
you're doing because how much there's like six in a row?
I think there's thirteen on the TVD can there is?
(19:34):
There were no in a row? And literally when I
saw it, I go how how? I literally my mind
went to how did they get the money for that effect?
They hired me? Really chiefly? Um, yeah, no, that was me.
Um you know before when you were talking also about
(19:55):
about having to re remember things. You know, Kevin started
to into the lens quite a bit as the series
extended out, Um, when he had secrets, when he was
being childish about something. And I remember right when the
show ended and starting to work on other shows and going,
oh god, I can't look in the lens. What am
(20:17):
I doing looking at the lens? You're not allowed to
do that any on the other show. Come on, get
it together. Um, so yes, I know what you mean.
I definitely remember a feeling. Um, what's the right way
to put it, like, you know, like the prodigal son
or something, that I've been away and come back and
would I be accepted? Oh my gosh, it was truly.
(20:40):
I always remember. I always remember how happy everyone was
when you came back. I'm glad the but you know,
I it's funny. I was thinking about something I did
in the in the early episodes. I don't know if
other directors did it. I think it ended, but that
(21:00):
that was the idea that during our you know, talking
head interviews, that I used to sit next to the camera. Yes,
and I think that that was not something that other
directors did as much, or maybe not at all. I
never talked to anyone about it, but I remember like
coming back after a few seasons, and definitely at the
towards at the end to that, Like you know, Jenna
(21:22):
thought it was strange suddenly that I was there sitting
at the camera again because it had been a while
since I done. Yes, well, it's it's funny. I was
always I was of two minds because you're such an
open person and you and I believe that the energy
that you you give out, you're creating an environment, and
(21:46):
you're wanting as the interviewer to just be present for
the actor who's talking. So for me, if there was
someone there who was you know, I'm picking up, you know,
very concerned about the words, were thinking about something else
and looking down, that wasn't helpful to have that. It
was way easier for me to look at a mark
(22:08):
than to look at somebody who was doing something that
wasn't helpful to me. I know. There were also occasions,
especially with some of our writer directors um that could
not stop laughing. So it was way better for them
get them in the corner or in the other room, UM,
to be right there. I do remember at the beginning
(22:28):
of the series that one of the things, and I'm
not a writer, well I don't fancy myself a writer,
but I remember hoping that we could actually have a
conversation that would lead into the scripted talking headline. And
that was something you know, we did on occasion. And
again I make no claim of being able to improv
(22:49):
but it was like, what could I set up that
would kind of lead to the line, Yes, and that
that you know, but I do think after a while
that wasn't necessary, but it was a fun thing to
do at the top of the series. Absolutely. I do remember,
by the way, when you were talking about being trapped
at work, and now I remember something Greg and I discussed,
and that was where those interviews would be shot. So
(23:10):
they're generally two places, and one angle, of course, is
each actor sits with the glass facing the bullpen behind them,
and the other places with your back to the wall
the opposite wall. And I remember Greg very specifically saying
he loved the idea that that frame would have a
little sliver of the window in it, but just a
(23:33):
little bit, because there's no reason to see that you
could get out. And those are and and I remember
that see all a lot of where John's John shots
are well, I think and I had totally forgotten about this,
that John's was toward the outside because he dreamt of
getting out. Absolutely, that was absolutely part of that was
(23:57):
the subtext of I mean, it wasn't his sub text,
but that was Greg's idea that you know, I love
that that there was enough, there was something that objectively
told the story of his hopes and his dreams. You know,
whereas Kevin, most of the characters was shot so you
could only see the bullpen the office because that's where
(24:19):
they were going to be for effort. Yes, I remember
that that's actually and yet that angle on John only
featured a little bit of that window. Exactly. How was
shooting outside of the bullpen? I mean, we have these
physical barriers that exist within the office. How was moving
outside as as we started to you know, especially after
(24:42):
the first two seasons and going more to locations, did
that create more issues to keep the style and the
look of the show the same? Or let me I'll
just speak about one episode, and that's Booze Cruise because
obviously we sure we shot on a real boat where
were we can't long be Long Beach. And one of
(25:02):
the things I loved is and I didn't choose the boat,
Gregg chose the boat, but the boat for me was
like very claustrophobic. I felt like we were it was
like just dunder Mifflin floating in the water. I mean
I felt like everything about that space was very tight, constricted.
It was hard to shoot in its kind of again,
(25:23):
it sort of recreated the conditions of the workplace on
the water right, So in a funny way. I like
the fact that, you know, sometimes we'd go on location
and we'd basically be in the same kind of place. Yes,
we're on vacation for a fun night out and we're
just actually in the office again. Um well, booze cruise.
(25:45):
The seven seconds of silence that happened between Jim and Pam.
Was that an organic moment that happened. Did you have
to fight for that time of silence or I don't know,
Just talk me through that a little bit, like the
shooting of it and or the decision to allow it
to stay in. I mean, the length of the silence
(26:07):
was not something we planned obviously to the second, but
I think you know, John and Jenna both knew that,
you know, there were no rules about pace, and so
it was not objectionable to you know, let the moment linger.
I don't remember when we shot it feeling like, oh
my god, this is it. We've broken the record for
(26:29):
longest moment around, of course, but I do remember mostly
that it was that it felt very truthful. It could
have been half that length. It didn't really matter. It
was you know, it just felt very truthful. And I
turned in my cut and it probably worked with Greg
on the cut, but it was Greg who ultimately, you know,
(26:51):
fought to keep it in at that length. I only
hope that by that point in the in the series
it wasn't that big a fight because it was clear
what we were doing, and what we were doing was compelling.
For me. It's that classic thing of you know, if
you're involved, it doesn't you don't feel that the time passing.
(27:11):
You know, you're just you're involved, you know. And and
and for those two actors, again, they were just so
invested in that moment. I don't think they had a
clue that they were, you know, stretching the limits of
what's acceptable on a broadcast our television. Right. Maybe they were,
Maybe they were. Hi. I'm Glory Adam, host of Well
(27:43):
Read Black Girl. Each week, I sit in close conversation
with one of my favorite authors of color and share
stories about how they found their voice, hone their craft,
and navigated the publishing world, and composed some of the
most beautiful and meaningful words I've ever read. We journey
together through the cultural moment where our culture and literature
(28:07):
collide and pay homage to the women whose books we
grew up reading. And of course I check in with
members of the Well Read Black Girl book Club. It's
a literary kickback you never knew you needed, and you're
all invited to join the club. So tell your friends
to tell their friends so we can be friends who
(28:28):
love books. Listen to Well Read Black Girl on the
I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts. From the creator of The Bright Sessions, comes
a new fiction podcast for all ages. Jump back to
and follow maxim Miles as she starts high school in
(28:48):
the picturess town of Hastings, New Hampshire. Fall is the
season in which this small town shines apple cider, pumpkin
patches farmers markets. It's idyllic for adults and boring for Max,
But suddenly Max's school year starts to look a bit
more interesting when a fellow student vanishes. With the help
of her Misinthropp, the classmate Ross, Max starts to look
(29:09):
into the disappearance. Her investigation draws her deep into the
dark woods around Hastings, and even deeper into the secrets
and lies. The course of the veins of this sleepy town,
This New y A mystery from writer director Lauren Chippen,
is an audio drama with heart and wit that involves
the audience in a way no fiction podcast ever has.
Listen to Maxi Miles and the I Heart Radio app,
(29:30):
Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. If
I could be you and you could be me for
just one hour, if you could find a way to
get inside each other's mind. Walk a mile in my shoes,
Waco mile in my shoes, walcome mile in my mind shoes.
(29:52):
We've all felt left out, and for some that feeling
lasts more than a moment. We can change that, Learn
how it belonging. Begins of us dot org. Brought to
you by the ad Council. Welcome out in the Shop.
(30:19):
So Greg approached you about coming back for the finale,
or he asked you, or how did that come about?
He asked me to come back for the finale. It
had been two or three seasons since I worked on
the show, but I think Greg wanted to create a
sense of coming full circle and returning to the show's origins.
(30:40):
And I also was a little daunted by the fact
that and this is a good thing that so many
of the characters, so many of the characters who began
the series, you know, in secondary roles, everybody's role had
grown and and and everybody had a complicated story to tell,
and uh, how are we going to do that? Well,
(31:03):
it took longer than a normal show, that's for sure.
It's like a feature length finality. How involved were you
leading up to the table read? You know, the table
read became a very big deal, as you recall, with
a humongous audience in this giant auditorium on some location.
I can't even remember where it was. But here's how
(31:25):
I I wasn't. Here's what happened with the table reading
is you know, I I was used to reading the
scene description, and so I just sort of casually said
to Greg, would you like me to read the scene description?
And he said absolutely not. I thought, WHOA, Okay, I
don't need to read it. Little did I realize what
he was planning. He was planning this sort of table
(31:47):
reading extravag answer, yes, yes, had you read it before?
Oh yeah, I definitely, because we none of us had
really no, I mean we had the scripts delivered. I mean,
if some people did it was because they had a
soft morning, you know. By by later in the seasons,
we were not. And it wasn't a product of them
(32:07):
keeping it a secret. They just they were working and
we were shooting, and then suddenly it would be table
read day and there would be an episode in the
in this trailer. Well, I definitely I read the finale,
and I was also part of the discussions about Steve's
cameo appearance, right, I guess I don't know if you
could call it a cameo appearance, his return, yes, and
(32:30):
how we were planning to keep it a secret. It's
still remarkable to me that it was kept a secret,
considering the fact that he, you know, his appearance in
the finale is at a wedding where they were like,
you know a lot of people. Yes, So I don't
it doesn't make any sense to me that it was
kept secret, but it was. I will say that I
(32:52):
was pestered by different news people and uh, I honed
my you know, fibbing skills quite well. Well, I somehow
knew the day before, or a couple of days before,
I knew that it was coming. Why did you feel
that was important for him to come back, or did
(33:14):
you well, I mean, aside from the just you know,
the kind of excitement getting the whole gang back together again.
I mean, I feel like it it sort of speaks
a lot to Michael's character that he would show up
for the wedding. Just emotionally, it felt like where Michael was.
I mean that Michael's evolution over the course of the series,
(33:36):
it made perfect sense that he wasn't going to miss
that absolutely. Why do you think that the office has
not just maintained, but why is the show more popular
now than it was even when it aired? What is
it about the show that you think you know that
so many people respond to. Yeah, I wonder if all
(34:00):
there were new Let me think about that. I have
a go. That's a good question. Oh, I have an answer.
I feel like the continuing popularity of the show has
a lot to do with the fact that most of
us do work in really dreary jobs and feel trapped
in the workplace, and I feel like, in a funny way,
(34:23):
the show really honors that experience. And uh, I speak
very personally. My you know, I have a brother who
is younger than me, who works at a store in
our hometown, and when you go in and you know,
behind the counter of the store are all the office
bobble heads, all of them. And I think in a
(34:44):
weird way, it's less about the fact that I worked
on the show and more about the fact that working
people connect with these characters. Let me ask you this,
do you think the office contributed to or the culture
sort of at the time and reality television started to
become larger, and here we were doing a scripted television
(35:08):
show to have it attempt to be done really, I mean,
Randall Einhorn and Mattszone where reality TV camera people. I
don't know. I just there's something interesting there to me
about that reality TV started happening, you know, unmasked at
that time, and here we were a scripted comedy show
(35:31):
attempting to do the same thing. I don't know. I
will say that a lot of people you know, that
I talked to about the show assumed that it was improvised, right,
And are they're surprised when I say it was actually
very carefully scripted. Obviously scripted to sound you know, off
the cuff at times, but it wasn't a show like
(35:52):
imagine crib. Your enthusiasm is that I've never worked on it,
but I imagine it's mostly improvised or Christopher Guests films,
which are remarkable, But the Office was the opposite. It
was very and I hate the word format it so
I won't use it. But it was a very well
crafted Each week was a well crafted script. So I
feel like in a way it probably fooled people and
(36:14):
it may have created a you know, it may have
said an example that other people followed in the wrong
ways far as something, because it was actually very much
about you know, there's so much good writing craft going on,
and I think the fact that people were fooled into
thinking it was spontaneous or improvised as a tribute to
how well written it was written and directed. Yes, absolutely. Um,
(36:38):
what are you most proud of about your contribution to
the show or the show itself. I'm very proud of
the fact that there were a lot of naysayers at
the beginning. There are a lot of people who said
this will fail, and that it didn't fail. Actually it
(37:04):
it succeeded, but it succeeded on its own terms, and
that's what I'm proud of. That's so great. Put on
your head phones for one second, Hey, will you play
that clip? I thought it was weird when you picked
us to make a documentary, But all in all, I
(37:25):
think an ordinary paper company like dunder Mifflin was a
great subject for a documentary. There's a lot of beauty
and ordinary things. Isn't that kind of the point? Oh? Yeah,
that is the point. That's why it's continued to be popular. Okay,
(37:48):
So well, I mean that, I mean to me, what
that says is that's what Greg thought. The point was,
what do you think you think beauty and the ordinary? Yeah,
I mean I also feel like they they you know,
just as a director, it was such a pleasure and
a privilege to kind of do something that didn't go
down the middle of the road. And I think audiences
(38:11):
respect that, and I love that about the show. I
actually do remember a different ending to the finale as
I recall. The original ending was, you know, the night before,
or rather the night of the story, the story that
all the characters decide they need to take the plant,
(38:32):
planty plant that's in the bullpen, that's been in the
bullpen for nine seasons, like sad looking plant, and everybody, somebody,
maybe I don't know, is a Kevin. Somebody makes a
suggestion that Planting needs to be liberated. Planting needs to escape,
and so everyone marches out of the office with a
(38:54):
two or three of the characters carrying planty, and everyone's chanting, Planty, Planty.
The entire ensemble then goes outside of the building in
the parking lot in front of under Mifflin's building, and
they plant planting. And the original ending, as Greg and
I discussed, was that, you know, everyone kind of wanders away.
(39:17):
Everyone's been drinking, and everyone's you know, feeling a little sad,
but in festive, and we hold on this empty parking
lot with the plant newly planted, the one that was
in dunder Mifflin is now outside. And as I recall,
Greg's original plan was that there'd be a dissolved through
to the next morning, and you just see the empty
parking lot at dawn with this plant in its new home. Fascinating.
(39:42):
I totally forgot that. Yeah, that's great, and um, I'm
not surprised that Greg decided to end with Pam's drawing.
I mean, it's fantastic, it's wonderful, and and yes, Pam's
final speech about finding the beauty in the ordinary is
certainly it could not be a better summation statement. But
(40:06):
going back to the offbeatness of the show, I must
say I loved the idea of a show that ended
with a shot of an empty parking lot and a
plant plant. It's amazing. That's amazing. Well, we you know,
I talked to Jenna some about it, and you know,
(40:27):
I was saying to her like if the office was
a was a being a person or that Pam was
clearly the heart of the show. Obviously, she's you know,
has a love interest with Jim Dwight describes her as
his best friend um in the end, and you know,
she's the one that has the last moment with Michael
(40:50):
when he's leaving, and it's interesting that it it goes
back to her. I do think she was the emotional
heart of the show. Well, you know, I mean, I
guess the only thing I would add to that is
the show is a comedy, but within it is a
(41:10):
romantic story. And the romantic story is not played for laughs.
The romantic story is grounded and real and in a
very you know, old fashioned sense. This is a show
with clowns and lovers. Yes, and a different show is different,
you know, a wonderful show like Friends, the romantic storylines
are funny. But in the office, Pam and Jim, we
(41:35):
don't love them because of the laughs. We love them
because of how you know, grounded and real that relationship
is well. And we couldn't because both Jenna and John
aren't funny, so we wouldn't be able, we wouldn't be
able to Thank goodness, I wasn't written that. I didn't
say though, because um, I just so appreciate you being Oh,
(41:58):
I mean, I am so on heard that you gave
us any time, and I just want you to know,
just watching things through again and just you as a person,
I love you, and I just I want you to
know how much I respect you and give you full
credit for the world that was created on the office
with Greg, I love you too, and I miss you,
(42:19):
my girl. It's been so I'm just so excited that
you're doing this too. And it was also it's so
comfortable to talk to you about this good and I
felt like like, let's just talk about let's just talk
about exactly. Um, thanks so much. Oh my gosh, well
(42:48):
you heard it here, folks. Instead of talking about the
beauty of ordinary things, I could have been talking about
the beauty of planting this whole time, and you know what,
maybe that's not such a bad idea. Ken, thank you
so much for taking the time to come talk to me.
I so appreciate it. And to all of my listeners
(43:11):
you know this, I appreciate you as well. Make sure
to tune in next week or another behind the scenes
look at the show in a brand new interview with
editor extraordinarieror Dave Rogers. Oh and don't forget you can
pre order our very new and very exciting book, Welcome
(43:33):
to dunder Mifflin, The Ultimate Oral History of the Office,
on Amazon right now. Trust me, you are not going
to want to miss it. But in the meantime, I
just need you to do one thing. Have a fan
freakytastic week. The Office. Deep Dive is hosted and executive
(43:58):
produced by me Brian Gartner, alongside our executive producer Langley.
Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer. Our producers for this
episode are Liz Hayes and Diego Tapia. My main man
in the booth is Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble
and Squeak, performed by my great friend Creed Bratton, and
the episode was mixed by seth Olandsky. Hey, it's de Lieva.
(44:43):
I'm here to tell you about my brand new podcast,
De Lipa At your service. I'll be sitting down with
the world's most inspiring minds to uncover what makes them
take and what they've learned from the obstacles life has
thrown at them, including Sir Elton John. After a lot
of upsets, a lot of disappointments, a lot of betrayals,
It's turned out to be the most wonderful life right
now that I could have ever imagined. Listen to do
(45:05):
Ali for at your service on the I Heart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Mama, what
does the chickens say? Uh? Draft? Draft? Really? Giraffe? Giraffe.
(45:25):
You're not gonna get it all right. Just make sure
you know the big stuff, like making sure your kids
are buckled correctly in the right seat for their agent's eyes.
Get it right visits n h S a dot gov
slash the Right Seat brought to you by the National
Highway Traffic Safety Administration in the AD Council. Did you
know that on the day Dr King was shot, the
all black security detail normally assigned to him was called off.
(45:49):
They're the ones who would not allow him to stay
at any hotel with balconies. Did you ever asked what
this was all about? What we pold? This is the
MLK tapes. The first episodes are available now. Listen on
the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
(46:10):
get your podcasts.
Popular Podcasts
1. The Podium
The Podium: An NBC Olympic and Paralympic podcast. Join us for insider coverage during the intense competition at the 2024 Paris Olympic and Paralympic Games. In the run-up to the Opening Ceremony, we’ll bring you deep into the stories and events that have you know and those you'll be hard-pressed to forget.
2. In The Village
In The Village will take you into the most exclusive areas of the 2024 Paris Olympic Games to explore the daily life of athletes, complete with all the funny, mundane and unexpected things you learn off the field of play. Join Elizabeth Beisel as she sits down with Olympians each day in Paris.
3. iHeartOlympics: The Latest
Listen to the latest news from the 2024 Olympics.