April 20, 2021 • 48 mins
Brian finally gets his Oprah moment when he surprises his former castmate Phyllis Smith with a very special guest, her old boss and friend Allison Jones. They reunite to talk about the child actor that blew their mind with only one line, how Phyllis really got into showbiz, and that time Greg Daniels jumped out of a window.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
My name is Phyllis Smith, and I played Phillis Slap
and Vance. Hello everybody, and welcome back, one and all
to the Office Deep Dive. I am your host, Brian Baumgartner,
and I am so excited to present to you my
(00:29):
interview with Phyllis Smith. And guys. This episode is truly
one of my favorites ever, not only because Phillis is
obviously wonderful, but because I finally finally got to have
my Oprah moment. Now here's what happened. As some of
(00:49):
you may know, Phillis did not start out as an actor. No,
Phillis was actually Alison's casting associate on the Office, but
she was just so perfect that Greg Daniels and Ken
Kappa decided to cast her, and obviously she went on
to be an incredible part of our ensemble. So Phillis
and Allison had worked together many years, become very very
(01:10):
close friends. But they don't get to see each other
very often these days. So when I was going to
be interviewing Phillis, I said to Alison, Hey, Alison, why
don't you come in. You guys can talk about casting,
and then I can talk with Phillis about you know,
her progression through the show, and but let's surprise her.
Don't tell Phillis that you're going to be there, and
(01:33):
as you will hear right now. It was just the
best moment. So um oh, I'm so excited. Let's roll
the tape. Bubble and Squeak. I love it. Bubble and
Squeak and Bubble and Squeaker cookie every month left over
(01:56):
from the nut before. I'm so excited for Phyllis to
come in and see you. She's out there. She just
doesn't know that you're here. Are we good? Okay, she's
(02:19):
gonna walk through that door. I love this, skinny Phillis.
What's the deal? Surprised? How are you so good to
(02:52):
see you? Oh my goodness, I bill A Pillow asked
her most everything. Yeah, no, ask her. So I just
(03:13):
this is just to tell you what's going on. So
I had my thing. I've interviewed Allison, We've talked about
casting the entire show. But I said to her, let's
let's leave off Phillis, because I wanted you to come
in and you guys to be able to have a
conversation together. So how when did you guys meet? Oh? God? Okay,
(03:34):
the first pilot we worked on together was called was
at those offices across from Universal and we cast James
Franco and Ben Foster in a really bad sitcom. We
were in the trailer. Oh, we were in the trailer
that we were in the trailer first on NBC's a Lot,
That's right, And that was um because Jessica Walter screamed
(03:55):
at her agent for sending her to the wrong place
and we were like hiding behind in the desk like,
oh my god, We're like, what's going on? Um? But yeah,
it was an in terrible trailer and it was during
like El Nino, and our trailer everything was soaked. Everything
was soaked. They had terrible rain. They were leaks. And
(04:18):
from my point of view, I had been working with
Alan Hawkford and the day that was my last day
with him on we went across the hall to say goodbye,
and that when um whose office? They said, oh, Allison
Joe Yeah? And I said, do you know if anybody
is looking for a casting and associate and they said, oh, yeah,
(04:40):
Allison Jones to it. And so then I contacted you
and then I had an interview on Monday, and you
started me on Wednesday. Yes, right, right, right, and I
remember Steve Jacobs was another casting director, said if you
want someone to whip you into shape, higher this gal,
What's what year is this? Probably because then we went
(05:06):
on to do some like Freaks and Geeks, we did
other Yeah, but before that we did Roswell, which was lacious.
We call our We called that the lowest point of
both of our lives. It was just lacious because it
was for a network that needed beautiful people. I told
you that's where Heath Ledger wasn't good looking enough for
Fox right and Ian Summer remember Ian Summer Holder yelled
(05:27):
at me because yes, we were shocked. You got yelled
at for reading too fast with the actor in the room,
and I felt terrible, but yeah, he yelled at me
right after the So yeah, I've never done that. Yeah,
I should try that job, not like traumatized me. So
(05:48):
I tried to slow it down after that. So you
worked together from through two thousand three, the whole time.
Still worked through the first episodes of the Office. Didn't
work till the mid second season, right, because you guys
weren't getting paid anything, right, and I we didn't know
if we were getting a pickup or Yeah, so I
(06:08):
remained in casting, Kate remained working in the restaurant. Yeah,
so we all just held on. So what did you
what did you do in casting for like, were you
primarily reading or were you I? Um, Alison would give
(06:29):
me her ideas and we'd go through. At that time
in casting we used to get real pictures and resumes.
We were stacked full of so I had to separate
all those in two different you know, and whatever Allison
wanted me to do, I did it and set up
the appointments. Make sure trying to confirm actors, you are
(06:54):
a tough one though, because you would say you have
to call me back and confirm that the confirmation is
actually real, not just I remember that one time we
had that one kid that we had given out an
appointment and it was for um, a bad movie. It
was a movie that and it was with Creative or
(07:18):
you big agency, I don't remember the agency. But he
I had given out all the appointments, waited approximately a
week or so to confirm. Finally I hadn't heard anything.
So I called and he still hadn't given the appointments
out and the session was like, you know, a couple
of days away. So what I did is. I proceeded
(07:38):
to call the managers of everybody, and all of a sudden,
this kid calls me and he goes, what do you
think you're doing? And uh, I said, well, I'm doing
the work that you should have been doing. Yes, And
he goes, how dare you? And I said, well, you
know what, let me tell you something. I said. When
I call you, you you say hello, because he was so
(08:00):
be fuddled. When I give you the information, you call
me back with a confirmation, and when we go to
hang up, you say goodbye. You just don't drop the phone.
And you remember I was yelling at this point. I
came around at Allison, standing this, because who are you
talking to you? Um? So you did casting for nineteen years? Yes?
(08:25):
Is that right? Approximately? So someone found this quote that
you said for nineteen years. That's what I did. I
examined the character, the truth of it, and I think
that I didn't know it at the time, but I
was learning. I don't remember saying that. Does that sound right? Well?
(08:46):
What I have said in various interviews is that I
was probably honing a craft that I didn't know I
was honing. I was never in the forefront of my
mind and I can honestly say I never thought that
I would be an actor. You know. It was never
(09:08):
something I went, Oh, I wonder if there's a role
for me. At one point I was trying to get
into commercials and and like acting commercials, and then life
changed and I ended up. Well, you know how I
got into casting, right? Do you know that how did
into casting? I don't know that. Well. I was working
(09:29):
as a receptionist in an aerospace defense company in Sherman Oaks.
A friend of mine called, who had worked for Stuart
Stu Billet Productions on a court show and they said,
Phyllis they need a mousey woman for a court show.
And I said, oh, man, I didn't want to. I
(09:49):
wasn't actively auditioning or going out. I was being a
receptionist and I had one hour for lunch. I had
to go over the hill to do this audition, and
in process. At this time, this was the olden days,
we wore nylons and I went to the bathroom and
as I was pulling them up, I ripped a huge hole.
(10:11):
Night My entire me was out of my my nie.
So I walked into the audition and I said, excuse me,
are you looking for mousey or lifted up my skirt
or tacky, and so we ended up in a conversation
and and I wasn't mousey enough to be a mousey
woman sing. But in the course of the conversation, I said,
(10:33):
you know, I think I might be good in casting.
And about a year later she called me, and that's
how I ended up. And I was at the lowest.
I mean, I had to do everything, everything that nobody
else wanted to do. I was there doing what it
was this like three hundred a week or my first
(10:55):
job was two fifty bucks a week, and I was thrilled.
But it have been about three what would yours have
been probably in late eighties. Yeah, so I was a
little bit earlier, but two and fifty bucks a week
was huge. Yeap. So that's how I ended up in
the casting. And then it just now it's a thing
people want to do. Shockingly, we just sort of ended
(11:19):
up in it. Um, did you feel the casting process
of of casting The Office was was different than any
other show that you had done before. I think it
was because the the material was so different from the
other the other shows. It was a give and take
and it was jo you know, and this was completely
(11:43):
a different style. It would say, if you think you're
doing too little, you're still doing too much, right, because
we had every direction to give everybody, everybody pull it down. Yeah,
I have the original audition I have for stand uh
Leslie in my office. I left the camera running by mistake,
(12:03):
and it shows me explaining the genre of the show
and how it's going to be a fake documentary. And
I think you walked by in the background, by the way,
and I'm, you know, just saying and there's poor poor
Leslie going m h. And I was just kept repeating,
it's less is more, it's it has to feel like
it's a documentary like in the British show blah blah
(12:24):
blah blah. But that was what we stressed. Was there
anyone Was there someone that you remember fighting for that
was cast or wasn't cast? Better you were in the
rooms because you were reading with these actors, so you
had a better feel for it. But you read with them.
I read them with them until Ken Koppus came up
(12:45):
to me and said, could you let Phillis read because
I think she'd be good in the show. I didn't
saying the same thing. I mean she got it because
Ken thought she was good, but she said, let Phillis read.
Oh my god, that's a great idea. Um. So Phillis
then went in and started reading with all the actors
and she was remember being scared. Though I'm sure you
were scared because I didn't want to screw it up.
(13:07):
I didn't know he was auditioning. Yeah, no, yeah, but
I was frightened because I wanted to do a good
job for the actors. And I read with Rain, and
then another time I read with Krauzinski, and I remember
when when I read with him, I thought, oh, that's
that's the one. It just felt right. I remember remember
(13:29):
John sitting out in the reception area and he had
you had put him on tape, like the first day
he was put on tape in New York. I remember
we had the same man's Jake Cruce sweater on. I
remember thinking, oh, I hope he doesn't notice this was brown,
(13:49):
mind was Green's so funny? Yeah, Well, they were all
sitting there, and then the second day he didn't get
called back either way, and he just was like very nervous.
And he later had told me he thought it was
because he didn't do well, the first day, and in
(14:11):
reality it was the reverse that I think he had
already already gotten made an impression. And and and I
remember BJ sitting out there just he looked like he
was petrified. Yeah he I don't I didn't know him.
I didn't know his personality, you know. Now, that's just
the way he looks, I know. But at the time
(14:32):
he looked like and he didn't engage with people, he
didn't talk or what's goot put him? You know. But
then I realized that was part of his My big
fear in all the casting situations when you mix and matches,
Oh my god, how bad are they going to feel
if they don't get called back in? I hate that.
And then Steve, Steve came in day two because he
(14:54):
because he was still whatever it was, he was still
hooked into the other NBC shows, they let him come
in on the second day. What was your impression of Steve?
I thought he was brilliant, you know, right off I
told him that I was for me, it was a
toss up because Odin Kirk was so cool. And so
then you said that when I was watching the tape
of Steve, who was the other guy that well, there was.
(15:16):
There was also Paul if Tompkins and really good people
that were testing. But it came down to between oden
Kirk and Carrol. But it would have been a different
It would have been a different different Michael with oden Kirk.
But you had said to me that when I was
watching the monitor watching Steve's test, and I was doubled
over with laughter, and Gregg noticed that, Yeah, yeah, you
(15:37):
always thought that was because yes, you're having a hard
time keeping it. Oh my god, yes, yeah that's awesome.
What um So you knew way before that they were
considering that that Ken was considering Phillis. Oh no, like
an hour before we were reading that day, and said,
(15:58):
could you just switch you do the camera? You do
this lit Phillis reach And I was at the coffee
trying to make sure everything was at the coffee and
Kim came up and he said, Phillis, someone should read
the character of Pam today and I went, okay. So
I thought, well, maybe one of the PAMs is is
(16:19):
going to be late or I didn't know the why.
And then I was nervous because I didn't know that
you knew, and I was like concerned that I was
going to be doing something out of line for my job,
you know. So you knew all of that, and no
one really ever came to me. Wardrobe was actually the
(16:42):
first one who called and said, I understand you're playing
the character of Phillis, and I went, yes, I am. Um.
So you didn't get to tell her, not for years. No, No,
but you didn't. You didn't get to tell her that
she had been cast. I guess Wardrobe told I was
in on it and didn't tell her. Do you remember
(17:04):
the day that you came in, Yes, to our office, No,
to the producers session. We were over where we where
we shot there first. Yeah, and um we had to
go from to get the actors. We had to go
about a block and a half within the building to
bring him back to the little where we were recording.
(17:27):
And so as a result, the session we were ran,
she ran the sessions on time. You didn't sit when
you went to Allison's. Yeah, you you went in. But
for some reason that day we were behind. We were
really behind. And I remember Leslie had another audition to
(17:48):
go to, so we said, go ahead, go to your
audition and come back. So he went to his audition,
He came back he fought the traffic and he was
in a real priming when he came in and must have. Yeah,
and you remember when Gregg jumped out the windows? Exactly
what I was going to say to you. I was
(18:09):
just in a casting session. Just Perkins was there and
she yeah, we were. Was it at the beginning before
the lunch hour or it was, but it was we were.
Had all had to sit at a conference table in
that the room that you didn't have to go into
when you read. You didn't see that, but that's where
(18:29):
we cast everybody else. And now there was and all
of a sudden, Greg just gets up and jumps out
this window, opened the window and jumped out the window,
and unfortunately the window was close to the ground. Yeah. So,
and then Nancy Perkins, in a thick Boston accent, said said,
oh my god, I've heard of produces wanting to jump
(18:50):
out the window before, but he just did it. Yeah,
we all just looke. He didn't have to get a
sweater in his car something. I don't know why he
did it, but it was funny. We just looked at
each other. He also used to graph the qualities of actors.
Um He had a graph and he would like put
what he needed and what he saw, and he would
(19:12):
literally graph the qualities of actors. He has a I
may have that he had a very scientific mind, uh
when it came to things like that, and that of
course drove me nuts. But he would always say that
he was less instinct and more thinking, you know, thinking
about it. Who would you put with this? And who
would you who would go with that? If you had
(19:33):
these two people, who would be this person? He thought
about it very carefully and it certainly worked on the office.
But jumping out the window, you and I were very fancy.
Oh my god, he jumped out the window. And now
we know that's kind of normal, but it was terrific.
(19:56):
Produces one to jump out the window before. Uh. Well,
I it's interesting because of you talking about that on
the casting side, because what we've been told by some
of the writers was one of the exercises that they did.
They called them unlikely duos or something like that, and
everyone's name would be on the wall, right, So Kevin
(20:19):
and Phillis and Michael and Dwight and and one of
their exercises was take two characters that you wouldn't put together,
and let's put them together and then have some story
about that. Interesting. Yeah, but it's interesting on from the
casting perspective, from the beginning, wanting to he does that's
(20:39):
at least how he did it with the office. Yeah,
he would ask everybody, you know, would you rather have
this person or this person? And then if you have
this person, would you have to have this person or
this person? But he was a very um pensive and
thoughtful person that way. And those are the like the
people that we've had the privileged to work for, Mitch
(21:01):
Herwitz and Judd Apatow and Paul fig They do think
about things in a different way to make the whole
greater than the sum of its parts. They all have
strange ways and interesting ways of thinking. I call it comedy. Aspergers, Sorry, Yeah,
(21:22):
it was great. Why do you think the two of
you worked so well together? Kind of laid back and
we enjoyed it, right, We had a lot of laughs.
And I truly I'm not just saying this because she's
sitting here. She can remember every actor that not only
opened their mouth to her, but walk in, you know,
(21:43):
just walk she has. And she was never afraid to
go out and find new talent. She just had an
eye she had an eye for somebody that was unique
and different, and so did you though I just a
little anecdote. We cast a show called spin City when
it was it was a spin City or Battery Park
that you meant to. When she was six, we're at
(22:06):
Radford and Phillis was reading kids for a one line
role on a Christmas episode or something, and Phillis said, Allison,
I read this girl, but come on in and we'll
read her again, because you've never seen anything like this.
And it was six year old Da Code of Fanning
reading one line about being an orphan or something, and
Phillis literally was like, I've never seen anything like it.
(22:27):
She was wondering. She was amazing. So Dakoda Fanning and
Chila Book go down for me as the best child
actors I've ever seen. Wow. Um, when you guys walked
in and you saw each other, what is it about
the history between you two that I feel so special?
(22:48):
We just love you, We just love each other. And
she's hilarious and we had a lot of good laughs.
We did we yeah, a lot of good Yeah. We
enjoyed it and love actors and basically a great just
a great like ultimately who cares, so let's just have fun. Yeah. Well,
she's a dear person and we work together for a
(23:08):
long time, and she always knew my sisters and stuff,
my brothers. Yeah. Yeah, when we come back, we're gonna
kick Alison out and Phillis and I uh, we're gonna
sit down for a chat together. It's a hard time
for hiring, so you need a hiring partner built for
(23:31):
hard times. That's Indeed. If you're hiring, you need Indeed
because Indeed is the hiring partner where you can attract, interview,
and hire all in one place. And Indeed is the
only job site where you're guaranteed to find quality applications
that meet your must have requirements or else you don't pay.
Instead of spending hours on multiple job sites hoping to
(23:55):
find candidates with the right skills, you need one hiring
partner that can help you do at all. Indeed partners
with you on every step of the hiring process, find
great talent through time saving tools like Indeed, instant match
assessments and virtual interviews. With instant Match, as soon as
you sponsor a post, you get a short list of
(24:15):
quality candidates with resumes on Indeed that match your job
description and you can invite them to apply right away. Plus,
you only pay for quality applications that meet your must
have requirements. Join more than three million businesses worldwide that
use Indeed to hire great talent fast. Start hiring right
(24:37):
now with a seventy five dollar sponsored job credit to
upgrade your job post at indeed dot com slash office
deep Dive offer valid through March thirty one. Go to
indeed dot com slash office deep Dive to claim your
seventy five dollar credit before March one. Indeed dot Com
slash Office Deep Dive terms and conditions apply. Need to
(25:00):
you need Indeed. I felt I can't. That's what you've
been in my life for so long, Bribe, I know. Well, um, yeah,
(25:25):
so we sort of talked about UM. I think it's
fascinating that you were casting all of these shows and
never had a thought. I truly, I can honestly say
that that was not I thought that ship had sailed
and so, UM, I don't know, it's just meant to
be and it's changed my life completely. Yeah, completely in
(25:48):
a good way. You know, did you have any training? No? No,
I I'm Alan Hockberg, who I worked for on Dr
Quinn Medicine woman. I worked with him for about six years,
six or seven years, and he actually taught me how
to hold the parricides and read with an actor and
(26:12):
and so he was instrumental in helping me to learn
how to read with an actor and treat an actor.
And and then when Alison, she was another person who
really a lot of casting directors did not get involved
when they read with actors, as you know, but Allison
(26:34):
really gave her all when she read with people. So
again being in the room and watching her interact with
the actor and watching the actors, Um, it's just I
don't know, Well, it's it's funny because I've heard of
people I never did this, but I've heard of actors
(26:54):
who will find an inn with a casting director to
be the person who reads with Yeah. There used to
happen all the time, right because they wanted to see,
you know, actors performances and be privy to the conversations
about why that person got cast and that person got cast.
It always seemed like kind of a smart thing, you know,
to be able to go in and hear what people
(27:16):
were talking about or what they were responding to or
you as an actor learning tips from that, and it's
so fascinating that you were doing that for nineteen years
but I didn't. But you weren't even trying it, just
it just came in right. It wasn't My job at
that time was to do the best that I could
for the actor to get the job, or to cipher
(27:37):
out who shouldn't be there and who should be there,
you know, but it turned out okay, turned out okay. Um,
so you got a call from wardrobe, so at this
point you have no idea. I just thought it was
odd that day that Kim came to me. I really
felt nervous because I didn't want to step on Allison's toe.
(28:00):
Was um, I think there was a fact that came through.
They had the character of Phyllis there, but we didn't.
I didn't want to even believe that it was going
to be a possibility. And as soon as wardrobe calls
then I because nobody ever came human said hey, do
you want to be in the show. You never really auditioned. No,
(28:22):
I guess I auditioned, but didn't know I was auditioning,
which is another thank you, because I would have been
completely if I was nervous enough wanting to do a
good job for the people I was reading with. Had
I known he was actually watching me. But you know what,
they did use a tape of my reading at the network.
(28:45):
One of the tapes that they presented I was reading
was someone so it was covered in the long run,
but I didn't know any of that at the time. Amazing.
I think that is best story ever. Think some actors think,
you know, not our group of people. But I've run
(29:05):
across other people sometime and they if they hear this story,
they go, oh, you know, they're kind of a little
bit like, well, look I studied it, blah blah blah,
and so they're not too thrilled with it. Right, Well,
I think it speaks to what you know, the producers
and and Greg and Ben and and and and Ricky
(29:29):
and Stephen were looking for in in this that they
were really looking for normal people, people not known faces
in any way, shape or form, and just people that
go to an office. You know. Yeah, um, I think
that potentially Phyllis and Kevin were the butt of a
(29:54):
lot of jokes. We were. We were definitely the butt
of a lot of maybe not all, but a lot.
Um Did you did I take offense to that or anything,
you know. Uh. I have to say though, when they
wanted me to carry Angela on my back in the finale,
(30:14):
that I thought, okay, that's a little much. First of all, physically,
I'm not wasn't sure how it was going to play out.
But then they took care of it and at all,
you know, with with the stunts and boards and stuff
like that. And I actually carried her like once or
twice down the aisle, but but that was just a
(30:38):
tinge to my feeling. Well that's a little bit over there. Yeah.
I certainly had some of those things as well. I
think that my I was told at some point. I
think it was it was either season seven or season eight.
We were talking about going forward without Steve, and I
was talking to some of the higher ups and they said, well,
(30:59):
we can't loose it was Kevin, because now that Michael's gone,
we have nobody else to do really really stupid things.
So that's what they were told. Because I started doing
a ton of the physical stuff to it. There was
oil in the warehouse and slipping around and doing all
this stuff. And I remember and like rain on my
(31:21):
back on the filing cabinet, like giving me a massage,
And there were a few times I went to them
and I was like, okay, guys, I am not a
cartoon character. There are physical limitations to what I can do,
so you can't just write anything, and they go, oh, well, yeah,
he can do that, of course. Yeah. I was always
grateful to get a line that would be like that.
(31:44):
You know, you get a script and you start thumbing
through it as a oh wow, I've got three four,
So yeah, I was. I was grateful to get a line.
Did you communicate much with the writers about I never did.
I didn't know I was had. I didn't know that
that if that was permissible. I hadn't been in those
(32:07):
shoes before as an as an actor. So whatever they
gave me, I I was glad I got. You know,
I was more unhappy when I didn't get something than
than what I did get. Do you feel like there
were things specific to you that influenced the character of
(32:30):
Phyllis um Golly? I think well, with my personnelity, I
sometimes like off, can I can be sarcastic, you know,
in a sweet way, and so I must have done
that to somebody somewhere along the line, and they kind
of picked up on it. Um, I was, I don't
(32:54):
you know, I never are these the questions I should
be asking when I have a character? No, I mean
I think I mean, as it creating a character, this
is no. I think it's more you know, for me,
I'm just wondering because I don't know the answer is
like did you have you know, whether you saw something
(33:15):
in yourself that sort of came through. I just tried
to do it from my gut because I didn't have
anything else to work from. So if I got the line,
I would try to deliver it a couple of different
ways with a different feeling. And um, And like I said,
(33:36):
I never really thought of like a backstory for Phillis.
I never had that knowledge to do that are the
tools to do that. I just went from my gut
and she just and however people perceived her, then all
of a sudden, that's what she'd be given. And like
I always loved my interactions with Michael because we were
(33:59):
so competitive in high school and you know, right, But
then I think another significant would be Angela. Oh yeah,
that was a perfect you know the fact that I
was so much larger than she was, but she tried
to rule me. Uh, and I completely what is the word, yeah,
(34:23):
ys to to what she wanted until I got to
the point that I couldn't stand her, you know, And
that's kind of way I do in life. I take, take, take,
and then all of a sudden I'd blow up. So
so yes it is. Yeah, look, it took all that
time to get to that point. Um, but luckily for Phillis,
(34:46):
you walked in on Angela and Twite. Oh yeah, yes,
which shifted the whole balance of power. I I was
the one in in charge then, all right, right, that
must have been fun. Oh it was the best. Like
when I swooped everything off the desk that wasn't nobody
(35:07):
told me to do that. I just did it. Yeah.
I enjoyed the arc of Angela being the my nemesis
to my becoming her nemesis. Right right, I didn't think
about it like that before. About right, that's exactly what happened.
(35:28):
Do you have any favorite episodes? There's so many though
that I mean, there's moments I think I've talked about
one before where Dwighton and Michael they bumped chest and
they go, we did it, and then they go, what
do we do? I don't know, it's just a stupid
little but it kind of like encapsulates the the whole
(35:51):
feeling of the office is like they're doing something and
then what we do. You know, M favorite episodes that
i've you know when of course my wedding, and I
love the scene that you and I did together when
I was in charge of trying and you came in
you wanted money. That was really one of the first
(36:11):
scenes that I ever had one on one with you,
and it felt really real. I enjoyed iron I think
I said something to you that day after the scene. Yeah,
for me, whoever we were paired off with on that
particular day or episode or whatever, it was generally exciting. Yeah,
(36:36):
A good A good deal. I love the episode where
Dwight kind of I hurt my back at the disco
and he takes and treats me as if I'm a
farm animal. Do you remember not, I mean, not necessarily
(37:15):
where you were or what, but hearing that that Steve
was going to leave, Oh man, that was the It
was like somebody punched you in the stomach, you know. Um.
I remember just being very sad about it, right because
(37:37):
I I liked him so much as a person. I
respected him so much as an actor. I I thought
he had brought so much heart to the to the office,
to the show, and I was really nervous about how
that void was going to be filled, not only you know,
(37:59):
as his acting abilities, but also is a he was
just a good guy. Yeah. I remember feeling way more
emotional about him leaving than even the end of the show.
I think because I felt like, you know, like a
(38:20):
kid when mom and dad leaves or something. It's like, well, now,
now what And there's actually one of the I think
one of my personal favorite lines was when he proposed
it to Holly and the rains coming down and we're
getting soaked by all the sprinklers and he says we're
going to Colorado, and Kevin says all of us, And
(38:42):
there was just something so sort of beautiful about that,
and then the realization that no, you no, no, he
was he was leaving. Yeah, you know, when you you
talked about when the show ended in after the ninth season,
that was tough, tough night, especially when Creed started singing.
(39:06):
But for me it was really tough, like months later
after the show had ended, and we generally would go
back to work around July or August. That's when it
set in that, oh, this is life's different now you
know we're not going back. Yeah. When I sat down
(39:28):
with Greg before that last season or moving into the
finale and we started talking about, you know, my life's
journey at that point through the office and Kevin, and
my experience was people feeling like they knew me and
specifically feeling like I was the guy that they wanted
to get a drink with and I would. I said
(39:49):
something to him like Greg, I can't go into a
bar without getting bought multiple drinks. Like they just come
to the point I and I'm good, No, thank you, no,
I'm good. Now. I gotta I gotta stop now. Guys,
at least people that call you Kevin, you know that
(40:10):
they know you from this show. You me when people
say Phillis, I have to think for a moment, Okay,
do I have our paths crossed for a moment, do
I know you? Or But in reality I do know
them or they know me because I've been in their bedroom,
in their living room, in their kitchen, and before they
(40:31):
go to work and as they go to sleep, and
so we are a part of our fans lives you know, absolutely,
but at least you can decipher yours a little better.
With Kevin and Brian, that's true. I've never thought about
that before Phyllis or Creed or Oscar or Angela. Yeah,
(40:54):
and especially if they say oh I saw you, and
I'm thinking, okay, now did I you know, to go
to school with them or what? Right? That's actually the
most difficult. Well, I have two difficult fan interactions. One
is I'll be at a at a serious place of business,
(41:16):
like like in a thing, and I'm meeting someone. Or
I have a good friend who's introducing me to a
good friend who says like, oh, we've met before, right,
And I immediately go, no, I know we haven't, and
I know why you think before. But then to say
that you become like I don't know, You're like you know,
(41:38):
I was on a television show, you know, Like so yeah.
For me, I love all the fan interaction I have.
I really haven't had an The hardest part for me
is at a funeral that's really awkward. I've had it
happened twice, and I just have to say, you know
(42:01):
I'm here because of this, not Or if you're at
a wedding and because I tend to forget, you know.
I when I go to a wedding, I go to
a wedding because I like the person. But other than that,
I have no problem with them coming up to me.
Nobody wants to buy me a drink. I don't drink.
(42:23):
But I think it's the specific Yeah, and part it's
the specific character. Um, do you remember me. You talked
a little bit about it. Creed's last song like that.
That that's the moment that you remember about the finale,
And that's the whole finale was, you know, driving out
(42:47):
to that ranch out in the middle of nowhere, and
it was a total surprise to me. I didn't know
Steve was going to come back, and I was, you know,
just so thrilled to even seem out alone having been
the finale and that was the best to have a
full reunion for the finale. So you didn't know until
(43:10):
you saw him there. So I'm in the middle of
the night getting out of my car and there he was,
you know, and I'm going, oh my god, it's so great. Yeah.
I had no idea it was coming back because they
hid it in the script. It was not in the script.
I somehow knew the night before. I don't remember. I
don't remember how, but like literally the night before or
(43:31):
something like that. It was more like don't you tell
a soul? But and I don't remember who told me whatever,
but I remember it shocking. What's in his line his
talking head about the your your children marrying each other,
(43:54):
well and just the that's what she said. This is
the first thing out of his mouth, just so perfect. Um.
And that's the thing that people don't realize now, like
when you watch it on Netflix. At the time, it
was such a big surprise because everyone was asking and
everyone was saying no, right because we assumed that it
(44:16):
was and no, but I mean even him and gregged
and then net work didn't know, like nobody knew. Yeah. Um,
now when you watch the show, you know that not
as much build up. Um. What do you think it
is about the show that makes people respond so crazy
to it? Now? Golly, I don't know. People say they'll
(44:41):
come up and they say, I just love your you know,
they love this, or they love that, and they have
a Dwight in their office, or they have a Kevin
in their office, or they have you know, they have
those people so they can relate in some way to
the various characters. Um, but it was just different, you know,
(45:02):
it took a bold step and in today's world, it's
some of it may cross the lines. You know. Things
are so politically correct nowadays. So uh and little kids
look at that, a six year old who was asking
as questions who they were so intelligent and informed and
(45:27):
and to me, six is a little young to be
involved in the show. But what do you think. I
don't know. I think it's just about the characters and
that it's it's a workplace comedy. But really it's a family, right,
a family. Yeah, we've we've we've become enmeshed in each
(45:49):
other's lives. Uh. Yeah, what was it all about for you? Um?
We became family over the nine years. We didn't nobody
really knew each other, but we all grew up together
(46:13):
in a nine year period and it was one of
the best parts of my life. Yeah. Yeah, Phillis, thank
(46:34):
you so much for coming out, Thank you for thinking
of me. I love you so much. I'm so honored
to call myself your friend. And we share something that
(46:55):
will never ever go away. Exactly. We're hard to heart. Yeah, yeah,
well it doesn't doesn't get any better than her. Thank
(47:15):
you Phillis, thank you Allison Jones again for joining me, um,
and thanks to all of you once again for listening.
Have a stuppendous week this week. Let's have the best
week ever and I will see you next time for
another installment of the Office Deep Dive. The Office Deep
(47:44):
Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner,
alongside our executive producer, Lang Lee. Our senior producer is
Tessa Kramer, our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our
assistant editor is Diego Tapia. My man in the booth
is Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed
(48:05):
by my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was
mixed by Seth Olandsky.
My name is Phyllis Smith, and I played Phillis Slap
and Vance. Hello everybody, and welcome back, one and all
to the Office Deep Dive. I am your host, Brian Baumgartner,
and I am so excited to present to you my
(00:29):
interview with Phyllis Smith. And guys. This episode is truly
one of my favorites ever, not only because Phillis is
obviously wonderful, but because I finally finally got to have
my Oprah moment. Now here's what happened. As some of
(00:49):
you may know, Phillis did not start out as an actor. No,
Phillis was actually Alison's casting associate on the Office, but
she was just so perfect that Greg Daniels and Ken
Kappa decided to cast her, and obviously she went on
to be an incredible part of our ensemble. So Phillis
and Allison had worked together many years, become very very
(01:10):
close friends. But they don't get to see each other
very often these days. So when I was going to
be interviewing Phillis, I said to Alison, Hey, Alison, why
don't you come in. You guys can talk about casting,
and then I can talk with Phillis about you know,
her progression through the show, and but let's surprise her.
Don't tell Phillis that you're going to be there, and
(01:33):
as you will hear right now. It was just the
best moment. So um oh, I'm so excited. Let's roll
the tape. Bubble and Squeak. I love it. Bubble and
Squeak and Bubble and Squeaker cookie every month left over
(01:56):
from the nut before. I'm so excited for Phyllis to
come in and see you. She's out there. She just
doesn't know that you're here. Are we good? Okay, she's
(02:19):
gonna walk through that door. I love this, skinny Phillis.
What's the deal? Surprised? How are you so good to
(02:52):
see you? Oh my goodness, I bill A Pillow asked
her most everything. Yeah, no, ask her. So I just
(03:13):
this is just to tell you what's going on. So
I had my thing. I've interviewed Allison, We've talked about
casting the entire show. But I said to her, let's
let's leave off Phillis, because I wanted you to come
in and you guys to be able to have a
conversation together. So how when did you guys meet? Oh? God? Okay,
(03:34):
the first pilot we worked on together was called was
at those offices across from Universal and we cast James
Franco and Ben Foster in a really bad sitcom. We
were in the trailer. Oh, we were in the trailer
that we were in the trailer first on NBC's a Lot,
That's right, And that was um because Jessica Walter screamed
(03:55):
at her agent for sending her to the wrong place
and we were like hiding behind in the desk like,
oh my god, We're like, what's going on? Um? But yeah,
it was an in terrible trailer and it was during
like El Nino, and our trailer everything was soaked. Everything
was soaked. They had terrible rain. They were leaks. And
(04:18):
from my point of view, I had been working with
Alan Hawkford and the day that was my last day
with him on we went across the hall to say goodbye,
and that when um whose office? They said, oh, Allison
Joe Yeah? And I said, do you know if anybody
is looking for a casting and associate and they said, oh, yeah,
(04:40):
Allison Jones to it. And so then I contacted you
and then I had an interview on Monday, and you
started me on Wednesday. Yes, right, right, right, and I
remember Steve Jacobs was another casting director, said if you
want someone to whip you into shape, higher this gal,
What's what year is this? Probably because then we went
(05:06):
on to do some like Freaks and Geeks, we did
other Yeah, but before that we did Roswell, which was lacious.
We call our We called that the lowest point of
both of our lives. It was just lacious because it
was for a network that needed beautiful people. I told
you that's where Heath Ledger wasn't good looking enough for
Fox right and Ian Summer remember Ian Summer Holder yelled
(05:27):
at me because yes, we were shocked. You got yelled
at for reading too fast with the actor in the room,
and I felt terrible, but yeah, he yelled at me
right after the So yeah, I've never done that. Yeah,
I should try that job, not like traumatized me. So
(05:48):
I tried to slow it down after that. So you
worked together from through two thousand three, the whole time.
Still worked through the first episodes of the Office. Didn't
work till the mid second season, right, because you guys
weren't getting paid anything, right, and I we didn't know
if we were getting a pickup or Yeah, so I
(06:08):
remained in casting, Kate remained working in the restaurant. Yeah,
so we all just held on. So what did you
what did you do in casting for like, were you
primarily reading or were you I? Um, Alison would give
(06:29):
me her ideas and we'd go through. At that time
in casting we used to get real pictures and resumes.
We were stacked full of so I had to separate
all those in two different you know, and whatever Allison
wanted me to do, I did it and set up
the appointments. Make sure trying to confirm actors, you are
(06:54):
a tough one though, because you would say you have
to call me back and confirm that the confirmation is
actually real, not just I remember that one time we
had that one kid that we had given out an
appointment and it was for um, a bad movie. It
was a movie that and it was with Creative or
(07:18):
you big agency, I don't remember the agency. But he
I had given out all the appointments, waited approximately a
week or so to confirm. Finally I hadn't heard anything.
So I called and he still hadn't given the appointments
out and the session was like, you know, a couple
of days away. So what I did is. I proceeded
(07:38):
to call the managers of everybody, and all of a sudden,
this kid calls me and he goes, what do you
think you're doing? And uh, I said, well, I'm doing
the work that you should have been doing. Yes, And
he goes, how dare you? And I said, well, you
know what, let me tell you something. I said. When
I call you, you you say hello, because he was so
(08:00):
be fuddled. When I give you the information, you call
me back with a confirmation, and when we go to
hang up, you say goodbye. You just don't drop the phone.
And you remember I was yelling at this point. I
came around at Allison, standing this, because who are you
talking to you? Um? So you did casting for nineteen years? Yes?
(08:25):
Is that right? Approximately? So someone found this quote that
you said for nineteen years. That's what I did. I
examined the character, the truth of it, and I think
that I didn't know it at the time, but I
was learning. I don't remember saying that. Does that sound right? Well?
(08:46):
What I have said in various interviews is that I
was probably honing a craft that I didn't know I
was honing. I was never in the forefront of my
mind and I can honestly say I never thought that
I would be an actor. You know. It was never
(09:08):
something I went, Oh, I wonder if there's a role
for me. At one point I was trying to get
into commercials and and like acting commercials, and then life
changed and I ended up. Well, you know how I
got into casting, right? Do you know that how did
into casting? I don't know that. Well. I was working
(09:29):
as a receptionist in an aerospace defense company in Sherman Oaks.
A friend of mine called, who had worked for Stuart
Stu Billet Productions on a court show and they said,
Phyllis they need a mousey woman for a court show.
And I said, oh, man, I didn't want to. I
(09:49):
wasn't actively auditioning or going out. I was being a
receptionist and I had one hour for lunch. I had
to go over the hill to do this audition, and
in process. At this time, this was the olden days,
we wore nylons and I went to the bathroom and
as I was pulling them up, I ripped a huge hole.
(10:11):
Night My entire me was out of my my nie.
So I walked into the audition and I said, excuse me,
are you looking for mousey or lifted up my skirt
or tacky, and so we ended up in a conversation
and and I wasn't mousey enough to be a mousey
woman sing. But in the course of the conversation, I said,
(10:33):
you know, I think I might be good in casting.
And about a year later she called me, and that's
how I ended up. And I was at the lowest.
I mean, I had to do everything, everything that nobody
else wanted to do. I was there doing what it
was this like three hundred a week or my first
(10:55):
job was two fifty bucks a week, and I was thrilled.
But it have been about three what would yours have
been probably in late eighties. Yeah, so I was a
little bit earlier, but two and fifty bucks a week
was huge. Yeap. So that's how I ended up in
the casting. And then it just now it's a thing
people want to do. Shockingly, we just sort of ended
(11:19):
up in it. Um, did you feel the casting process
of of casting The Office was was different than any
other show that you had done before. I think it
was because the the material was so different from the
other the other shows. It was a give and take
and it was jo you know, and this was completely
(11:43):
a different style. It would say, if you think you're
doing too little, you're still doing too much, right, because
we had every direction to give everybody, everybody pull it down. Yeah,
I have the original audition I have for stand uh
Leslie in my office. I left the camera running by mistake,
(12:03):
and it shows me explaining the genre of the show
and how it's going to be a fake documentary. And
I think you walked by in the background, by the way,
and I'm, you know, just saying and there's poor poor
Leslie going m h. And I was just kept repeating,
it's less is more, it's it has to feel like
it's a documentary like in the British show blah blah
(12:24):
blah blah. But that was what we stressed. Was there
anyone Was there someone that you remember fighting for that
was cast or wasn't cast? Better you were in the
rooms because you were reading with these actors, so you
had a better feel for it. But you read with them.
I read them with them until Ken Koppus came up
(12:45):
to me and said, could you let Phillis read because
I think she'd be good in the show. I didn't
saying the same thing. I mean she got it because
Ken thought she was good, but she said, let Phillis read.
Oh my god, that's a great idea. Um. So Phillis
then went in and started reading with all the actors
and she was remember being scared. Though I'm sure you
were scared because I didn't want to screw it up.
(13:07):
I didn't know he was auditioning. Yeah, no, yeah, but
I was frightened because I wanted to do a good
job for the actors. And I read with Rain, and
then another time I read with Krauzinski, and I remember
when when I read with him, I thought, oh, that's
that's the one. It just felt right. I remember remember
(13:29):
John sitting out in the reception area and he had
you had put him on tape, like the first day
he was put on tape in New York. I remember
we had the same man's Jake Cruce sweater on. I
remember thinking, oh, I hope he doesn't notice this was brown,
(13:49):
mind was Green's so funny? Yeah, Well, they were all
sitting there, and then the second day he didn't get
called back either way, and he just was like very nervous.
And he later had told me he thought it was
because he didn't do well, the first day, and in
(14:11):
reality it was the reverse that I think he had
already already gotten made an impression. And and and I
remember BJ sitting out there just he looked like he
was petrified. Yeah he I don't I didn't know him.
I didn't know his personality, you know. Now, that's just
the way he looks, I know. But at the time
(14:32):
he looked like and he didn't engage with people, he
didn't talk or what's goot put him? You know. But
then I realized that was part of his My big
fear in all the casting situations when you mix and matches,
Oh my god, how bad are they going to feel
if they don't get called back in? I hate that.
And then Steve, Steve came in day two because he
(14:54):
because he was still whatever it was, he was still
hooked into the other NBC shows, they let him come
in on the second day. What was your impression of Steve?
I thought he was brilliant, you know, right off I
told him that I was for me, it was a
toss up because Odin Kirk was so cool. And so
then you said that when I was watching the tape
of Steve, who was the other guy that well, there was.
(15:16):
There was also Paul if Tompkins and really good people
that were testing. But it came down to between oden
Kirk and Carrol. But it would have been a different
It would have been a different different Michael with oden Kirk.
But you had said to me that when I was
watching the monitor watching Steve's test, and I was doubled
over with laughter, and Gregg noticed that, Yeah, yeah, you
(15:37):
always thought that was because yes, you're having a hard
time keeping it. Oh my god, yes, yeah that's awesome.
What um So you knew way before that they were
considering that that Ken was considering Phillis. Oh no, like
an hour before we were reading that day, and said,
(15:58):
could you just switch you do the camera? You do
this lit Phillis reach And I was at the coffee
trying to make sure everything was at the coffee and
Kim came up and he said, Phillis, someone should read
the character of Pam today and I went, okay. So
I thought, well, maybe one of the PAMs is is
(16:19):
going to be late or I didn't know the why.
And then I was nervous because I didn't know that
you knew, and I was like concerned that I was
going to be doing something out of line for my job,
you know. So you knew all of that, and no
one really ever came to me. Wardrobe was actually the
(16:42):
first one who called and said, I understand you're playing
the character of Phillis, and I went, yes, I am. Um.
So you didn't get to tell her, not for years. No, No,
but you didn't. You didn't get to tell her that
she had been cast. I guess Wardrobe told I was
in on it and didn't tell her. Do you remember
(17:04):
the day that you came in, Yes, to our office, No,
to the producers session. We were over where we where
we shot there first. Yeah, and um we had to
go from to get the actors. We had to go
about a block and a half within the building to
bring him back to the little where we were recording.
(17:27):
And so as a result, the session we were ran,
she ran the sessions on time. You didn't sit when
you went to Allison's. Yeah, you you went in. But
for some reason that day we were behind. We were
really behind. And I remember Leslie had another audition to
(17:48):
go to, so we said, go ahead, go to your
audition and come back. So he went to his audition,
He came back he fought the traffic and he was
in a real priming when he came in and must have. Yeah,
and you remember when Gregg jumped out the windows? Exactly
what I was going to say to you. I was
(18:09):
just in a casting session. Just Perkins was there and
she yeah, we were. Was it at the beginning before
the lunch hour or it was, but it was we were.
Had all had to sit at a conference table in
that the room that you didn't have to go into
when you read. You didn't see that, but that's where
(18:29):
we cast everybody else. And now there was and all
of a sudden, Greg just gets up and jumps out
this window, opened the window and jumped out the window,
and unfortunately the window was close to the ground. Yeah. So,
and then Nancy Perkins, in a thick Boston accent, said said,
oh my god, I've heard of produces wanting to jump
(18:50):
out the window before, but he just did it. Yeah,
we all just looke. He didn't have to get a
sweater in his car something. I don't know why he
did it, but it was funny. We just looked at
each other. He also used to graph the qualities of actors.
Um He had a graph and he would like put
what he needed and what he saw, and he would
(19:12):
literally graph the qualities of actors. He has a I
may have that he had a very scientific mind, uh
when it came to things like that, and that of
course drove me nuts. But he would always say that
he was less instinct and more thinking, you know, thinking
about it. Who would you put with this? And who
would you who would go with that? If you had
(19:33):
these two people, who would be this person? He thought
about it very carefully and it certainly worked on the office.
But jumping out the window, you and I were very fancy.
Oh my god, he jumped out the window. And now
we know that's kind of normal, but it was terrific.
(19:56):
Produces one to jump out the window before. Uh. Well,
I it's interesting because of you talking about that on
the casting side, because what we've been told by some
of the writers was one of the exercises that they did.
They called them unlikely duos or something like that, and
everyone's name would be on the wall, right, So Kevin
(20:19):
and Phillis and Michael and Dwight and and one of
their exercises was take two characters that you wouldn't put together,
and let's put them together and then have some story
about that. Interesting. Yeah, but it's interesting on from the
casting perspective, from the beginning, wanting to he does that's
(20:39):
at least how he did it with the office. Yeah,
he would ask everybody, you know, would you rather have
this person or this person? And then if you have
this person, would you have to have this person or
this person? But he was a very um pensive and
thoughtful person that way. And those are the like the
people that we've had the privileged to work for, Mitch
(21:01):
Herwitz and Judd Apatow and Paul fig They do think
about things in a different way to make the whole
greater than the sum of its parts. They all have
strange ways and interesting ways of thinking. I call it comedy. Aspergers, Sorry, Yeah,
(21:22):
it was great. Why do you think the two of
you worked so well together? Kind of laid back and
we enjoyed it, right, We had a lot of laughs.
And I truly I'm not just saying this because she's
sitting here. She can remember every actor that not only
opened their mouth to her, but walk in, you know,
(21:43):
just walk she has. And she was never afraid to
go out and find new talent. She just had an
eye she had an eye for somebody that was unique
and different, and so did you though I just a
little anecdote. We cast a show called spin City when
it was it was a spin City or Battery Park
that you meant to. When she was six, we're at
(22:06):
Radford and Phillis was reading kids for a one line
role on a Christmas episode or something, and Phillis said, Allison,
I read this girl, but come on in and we'll
read her again, because you've never seen anything like this.
And it was six year old Da Code of Fanning
reading one line about being an orphan or something, and
Phillis literally was like, I've never seen anything like it.
(22:27):
She was wondering. She was amazing. So Dakoda Fanning and
Chila Book go down for me as the best child
actors I've ever seen. Wow. Um, when you guys walked
in and you saw each other, what is it about
the history between you two that I feel so special?
(22:48):
We just love you, We just love each other. And
she's hilarious and we had a lot of good laughs.
We did we yeah, a lot of good Yeah. We
enjoyed it and love actors and basically a great just
a great like ultimately who cares, so let's just have fun. Yeah. Well,
she's a dear person and we work together for a
(23:08):
long time, and she always knew my sisters and stuff,
my brothers. Yeah. Yeah, when we come back, we're gonna
kick Alison out and Phillis and I uh, we're gonna
sit down for a chat together. It's a hard time
for hiring, so you need a hiring partner built for
(23:31):
hard times. That's Indeed. If you're hiring, you need Indeed
because Indeed is the hiring partner where you can attract, interview,
and hire all in one place. And Indeed is the
only job site where you're guaranteed to find quality applications
that meet your must have requirements or else you don't pay.
Instead of spending hours on multiple job sites hoping to
(23:55):
find candidates with the right skills, you need one hiring
partner that can help you do at all. Indeed partners
with you on every step of the hiring process, find
great talent through time saving tools like Indeed, instant match
assessments and virtual interviews. With instant Match, as soon as
you sponsor a post, you get a short list of
(24:15):
quality candidates with resumes on Indeed that match your job
description and you can invite them to apply right away. Plus,
you only pay for quality applications that meet your must
have requirements. Join more than three million businesses worldwide that
use Indeed to hire great talent fast. Start hiring right
(24:37):
now with a seventy five dollar sponsored job credit to
upgrade your job post at indeed dot com slash office
deep Dive offer valid through March thirty one. Go to
indeed dot com slash office deep Dive to claim your
seventy five dollar credit before March one. Indeed dot Com
slash Office Deep Dive terms and conditions apply. Need to
(25:00):
you need Indeed. I felt I can't. That's what you've
been in my life for so long, Bribe, I know. Well, um, yeah,
(25:25):
so we sort of talked about UM. I think it's
fascinating that you were casting all of these shows and
never had a thought. I truly, I can honestly say
that that was not I thought that ship had sailed
and so, UM, I don't know, it's just meant to
be and it's changed my life completely. Yeah, completely in
(25:48):
a good way. You know, did you have any training? No? No,
I I'm Alan Hockberg, who I worked for on Dr
Quinn Medicine woman. I worked with him for about six years,
six or seven years, and he actually taught me how
to hold the parricides and read with an actor and
(26:12):
and so he was instrumental in helping me to learn
how to read with an actor and treat an actor.
And and then when Alison, she was another person who
really a lot of casting directors did not get involved
when they read with actors, as you know, but Allison
(26:34):
really gave her all when she read with people. So
again being in the room and watching her interact with
the actor and watching the actors, Um, it's just I
don't know, Well, it's it's funny because I've heard of
people I never did this, but I've heard of actors
(26:54):
who will find an inn with a casting director to
be the person who reads with Yeah. There used to
happen all the time, right because they wanted to see,
you know, actors performances and be privy to the conversations
about why that person got cast and that person got cast.
It always seemed like kind of a smart thing, you know,
to be able to go in and hear what people
(27:16):
were talking about or what they were responding to or
you as an actor learning tips from that, and it's
so fascinating that you were doing that for nineteen years
but I didn't. But you weren't even trying it, just
it just came in right. It wasn't My job at
that time was to do the best that I could
for the actor to get the job, or to cipher
(27:37):
out who shouldn't be there and who should be there,
you know, but it turned out okay, turned out okay. Um,
so you got a call from wardrobe, so at this
point you have no idea. I just thought it was
odd that day that Kim came to me. I really
felt nervous because I didn't want to step on Allison's toe.
(28:00):
Was um, I think there was a fact that came through.
They had the character of Phyllis there, but we didn't.
I didn't want to even believe that it was going
to be a possibility. And as soon as wardrobe calls
then I because nobody ever came human said hey, do
you want to be in the show. You never really auditioned. No,
(28:22):
I guess I auditioned, but didn't know I was auditioning,
which is another thank you, because I would have been
completely if I was nervous enough wanting to do a
good job for the people I was reading with. Had
I known he was actually watching me. But you know what,
they did use a tape of my reading at the network.
(28:45):
One of the tapes that they presented I was reading
was someone so it was covered in the long run,
but I didn't know any of that at the time. Amazing.
I think that is best story ever. Think some actors think,
you know, not our group of people. But I've run
(29:05):
across other people sometime and they if they hear this story,
they go, oh, you know, they're kind of a little
bit like, well, look I studied it, blah blah blah,
and so they're not too thrilled with it. Right, Well,
I think it speaks to what you know, the producers
and and Greg and Ben and and and and Ricky
(29:29):
and Stephen were looking for in in this that they
were really looking for normal people, people not known faces
in any way, shape or form, and just people that
go to an office. You know. Yeah, um, I think
that potentially Phyllis and Kevin were the butt of a
(29:54):
lot of jokes. We were. We were definitely the butt
of a lot of maybe not all, but a lot.
Um Did you did I take offense to that or anything,
you know. Uh. I have to say though, when they
wanted me to carry Angela on my back in the finale,
(30:14):
that I thought, okay, that's a little much. First of all, physically,
I'm not wasn't sure how it was going to play out.
But then they took care of it and at all,
you know, with with the stunts and boards and stuff
like that. And I actually carried her like once or
twice down the aisle, but but that was just a
(30:38):
tinge to my feeling. Well that's a little bit over there. Yeah.
I certainly had some of those things as well. I
think that my I was told at some point. I
think it was it was either season seven or season eight.
We were talking about going forward without Steve, and I
was talking to some of the higher ups and they said, well,
(30:59):
we can't loose it was Kevin, because now that Michael's gone,
we have nobody else to do really really stupid things.
So that's what they were told. Because I started doing
a ton of the physical stuff to it. There was
oil in the warehouse and slipping around and doing all
this stuff. And I remember and like rain on my
(31:21):
back on the filing cabinet, like giving me a massage,
And there were a few times I went to them
and I was like, okay, guys, I am not a
cartoon character. There are physical limitations to what I can do,
so you can't just write anything, and they go, oh, well, yeah,
he can do that, of course. Yeah. I was always
grateful to get a line that would be like that.
(31:44):
You know, you get a script and you start thumbing
through it as a oh wow, I've got three four,
So yeah, I was. I was grateful to get a line.
Did you communicate much with the writers about I never did.
I didn't know I was had. I didn't know that
that if that was permissible. I hadn't been in those
(32:07):
shoes before as an as an actor. So whatever they
gave me, I I was glad I got. You know,
I was more unhappy when I didn't get something than
than what I did get. Do you feel like there
were things specific to you that influenced the character of
(32:30):
Phyllis um Golly? I think well, with my personnelity, I
sometimes like off, can I can be sarcastic, you know,
in a sweet way, and so I must have done
that to somebody somewhere along the line, and they kind
of picked up on it. Um, I was, I don't
(32:54):
you know, I never are these the questions I should
be asking when I have a character? No, I mean
I think I mean, as it creating a character, this
is no. I think it's more you know, for me,
I'm just wondering because I don't know the answer is
like did you have you know, whether you saw something
(33:15):
in yourself that sort of came through. I just tried
to do it from my gut because I didn't have
anything else to work from. So if I got the line,
I would try to deliver it a couple of different
ways with a different feeling. And um, And like I said,
(33:36):
I never really thought of like a backstory for Phillis.
I never had that knowledge to do that are the
tools to do that. I just went from my gut
and she just and however people perceived her, then all
of a sudden, that's what she'd be given. And like
I always loved my interactions with Michael because we were
(33:59):
so competitive in high school and you know, right, But
then I think another significant would be Angela. Oh yeah,
that was a perfect you know the fact that I
was so much larger than she was, but she tried
to rule me. Uh, and I completely what is the word, yeah,
(34:23):
ys to to what she wanted until I got to
the point that I couldn't stand her, you know, And
that's kind of way I do in life. I take, take, take,
and then all of a sudden I'd blow up. So
so yes it is. Yeah, look, it took all that
time to get to that point. Um, but luckily for Phillis,
(34:46):
you walked in on Angela and Twite. Oh yeah, yes,
which shifted the whole balance of power. I I was
the one in in charge then, all right, right, that
must have been fun. Oh it was the best. Like
when I swooped everything off the desk that wasn't nobody
(35:07):
told me to do that. I just did it. Yeah.
I enjoyed the arc of Angela being the my nemesis
to my becoming her nemesis. Right right, I didn't think
about it like that before. About right, that's exactly what happened.
(35:28):
Do you have any favorite episodes? There's so many though
that I mean, there's moments I think I've talked about
one before where Dwighton and Michael they bumped chest and
they go, we did it, and then they go, what
do we do? I don't know, it's just a stupid
little but it kind of like encapsulates the the whole
(35:51):
feeling of the office is like they're doing something and
then what we do. You know, M favorite episodes that
i've you know when of course my wedding, and I
love the scene that you and I did together when
I was in charge of trying and you came in
you wanted money. That was really one of the first
(36:11):
scenes that I ever had one on one with you,
and it felt really real. I enjoyed iron I think
I said something to you that day after the scene. Yeah,
for me, whoever we were paired off with on that
particular day or episode or whatever, it was generally exciting. Yeah,
(36:36):
A good A good deal. I love the episode where
Dwight kind of I hurt my back at the disco
and he takes and treats me as if I'm a
farm animal. Do you remember not, I mean, not necessarily
(37:15):
where you were or what, but hearing that that Steve
was going to leave, Oh man, that was the It
was like somebody punched you in the stomach, you know. Um.
I remember just being very sad about it, right because
(37:37):
I I liked him so much as a person. I
respected him so much as an actor. I I thought
he had brought so much heart to the to the office,
to the show, and I was really nervous about how
that void was going to be filled, not only you know,
(37:59):
as his acting abilities, but also is a he was
just a good guy. Yeah. I remember feeling way more
emotional about him leaving than even the end of the show.
I think because I felt like, you know, like a
(38:20):
kid when mom and dad leaves or something. It's like, well, now,
now what And there's actually one of the I think
one of my personal favorite lines was when he proposed
it to Holly and the rains coming down and we're
getting soaked by all the sprinklers and he says we're
going to Colorado, and Kevin says all of us, And
(38:42):
there was just something so sort of beautiful about that,
and then the realization that no, you no, no, he
was he was leaving. Yeah, you know, when you you
talked about when the show ended in after the ninth season,
that was tough, tough night, especially when Creed started singing.
(39:06):
But for me it was really tough, like months later
after the show had ended, and we generally would go
back to work around July or August. That's when it
set in that, oh, this is life's different now you
know we're not going back. Yeah. When I sat down
(39:28):
with Greg before that last season or moving into the
finale and we started talking about, you know, my life's
journey at that point through the office and Kevin, and
my experience was people feeling like they knew me and
specifically feeling like I was the guy that they wanted
to get a drink with and I would. I said
(39:49):
something to him like Greg, I can't go into a
bar without getting bought multiple drinks. Like they just come
to the point I and I'm good, No, thank you, no,
I'm good. Now. I gotta I gotta stop now. Guys,
at least people that call you Kevin, you know that
(40:10):
they know you from this show. You me when people
say Phillis, I have to think for a moment, Okay,
do I have our paths crossed for a moment, do
I know you? Or But in reality I do know
them or they know me because I've been in their bedroom,
in their living room, in their kitchen, and before they
(40:31):
go to work and as they go to sleep, and
so we are a part of our fans lives you know, absolutely,
but at least you can decipher yours a little better.
With Kevin and Brian, that's true. I've never thought about
that before Phyllis or Creed or Oscar or Angela. Yeah,
(40:54):
and especially if they say oh I saw you, and
I'm thinking, okay, now did I you know, to go
to school with them or what? Right? That's actually the
most difficult. Well, I have two difficult fan interactions. One
is I'll be at a at a serious place of business,
(41:16):
like like in a thing, and I'm meeting someone. Or
I have a good friend who's introducing me to a
good friend who says like, oh, we've met before, right,
And I immediately go, no, I know we haven't, and
I know why you think before. But then to say
that you become like I don't know, You're like you know,
(41:38):
I was on a television show, you know, Like so yeah.
For me, I love all the fan interaction I have.
I really haven't had an The hardest part for me
is at a funeral that's really awkward. I've had it
happened twice, and I just have to say, you know
(42:01):
I'm here because of this, not Or if you're at
a wedding and because I tend to forget, you know.
I when I go to a wedding, I go to
a wedding because I like the person. But other than that,
I have no problem with them coming up to me.
Nobody wants to buy me a drink. I don't drink.
(42:23):
But I think it's the specific Yeah, and part it's
the specific character. Um, do you remember me. You talked
a little bit about it. Creed's last song like that.
That that's the moment that you remember about the finale,
And that's the whole finale was, you know, driving out
(42:47):
to that ranch out in the middle of nowhere, and
it was a total surprise to me. I didn't know
Steve was going to come back, and I was, you know,
just so thrilled to even seem out alone having been
the finale and that was the best to have a
full reunion for the finale. So you didn't know until
(43:10):
you saw him there. So I'm in the middle of
the night getting out of my car and there he was,
you know, and I'm going, oh my god, it's so great. Yeah.
I had no idea it was coming back because they
hid it in the script. It was not in the script.
I somehow knew the night before. I don't remember. I
don't remember how, but like literally the night before or
(43:31):
something like that. It was more like don't you tell
a soul? But and I don't remember who told me whatever,
but I remember it shocking. What's in his line his
talking head about the your your children marrying each other,
(43:54):
well and just the that's what she said. This is
the first thing out of his mouth, just so perfect. Um.
And that's the thing that people don't realize now, like
when you watch it on Netflix. At the time, it
was such a big surprise because everyone was asking and
everyone was saying no, right because we assumed that it
(44:16):
was and no, but I mean even him and gregged
and then net work didn't know, like nobody knew. Yeah. Um,
now when you watch the show, you know that not
as much build up. Um. What do you think it
is about the show that makes people respond so crazy
to it? Now? Golly, I don't know. People say they'll
(44:41):
come up and they say, I just love your you know,
they love this, or they love that, and they have
a Dwight in their office, or they have a Kevin
in their office, or they have you know, they have
those people so they can relate in some way to
the various characters. Um, but it was just different, you know,
(45:02):
it took a bold step and in today's world, it's
some of it may cross the lines. You know. Things
are so politically correct nowadays. So uh and little kids
look at that, a six year old who was asking
as questions who they were so intelligent and informed and
(45:27):
and to me, six is a little young to be
involved in the show. But what do you think. I
don't know. I think it's just about the characters and
that it's it's a workplace comedy. But really it's a family, right,
a family. Yeah, we've we've we've become enmeshed in each
(45:49):
other's lives. Uh. Yeah, what was it all about for you? Um?
We became family over the nine years. We didn't nobody
really knew each other, but we all grew up together
(46:13):
in a nine year period and it was one of
the best parts of my life. Yeah. Yeah, Phillis, thank
(46:34):
you so much for coming out, Thank you for thinking
of me. I love you so much. I'm so honored
to call myself your friend. And we share something that
(46:55):
will never ever go away. Exactly. We're hard to heart. Yeah, yeah,
well it doesn't doesn't get any better than her. Thank
(47:15):
you Phillis, thank you Allison Jones again for joining me, um,
and thanks to all of you once again for listening.
Have a stuppendous week this week. Let's have the best
week ever and I will see you next time for
another installment of the Office Deep Dive. The Office Deep
(47:44):
Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner,
alongside our executive producer, Lang Lee. Our senior producer is
Tessa Kramer, our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our
assistant editor is Diego Tapia. My man in the booth
is Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed
(48:05):
by my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was
mixed by Seth Olandsky.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com