April 11, 2025 • 52 mins
In this episode, Jillian Richardson discusses the journey from loneliness to belonging and shares the small steps that can change everything. She delves into why friendship takes more effort than we expect and how we can actually get better at it. Jillian also explores what gets in the way of connection, why it’s not just about putting yourself out there, and how real community is less about finding perfect people, and more about staying when things feel a little uncomfortable.
Key Takeaways:
- Challenges of forming friendships as adults
- The impact of loneliness on social interactions
- Importance of intention in building connections
- Strategies for fostering deeper relationships
- Role of vulnerability in authentic friendships
- The significance of consistency in maintaining friendships
- Practical advice for initiating and nurturing friendships
- The influence of societal factors on feelings of isolation
- Encouragement to engage in uncomfortable conversations
If you enjoyed this conversation with Jillian Richardson, check out these other episodes:
How to Find Joy and Community with Radha Agrawal
Belonging and Connection with Sebene Selassie
For full show notes, click here!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So many people share the struggle and just don't necessarily
realize that they don't have a tolerance for having any
sort of uncomfortable conversation.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Wow, welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great
thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have,
quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what
you think ring true, And yet for many of us,
our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
(00:35):
self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
have instead of what we do. We think things that
hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
(00:56):
the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Have you ever noticed how making friends as an adult
feels weirdly complicated. We say we want more connection, but
then we don't go to the thing, don't follow up,
and decide that Netflix just sounds easier. In this episode,
I talk with Gillian Richardson, author, coach and creator of
the joy List about why friendship takes more effort than
(01:23):
we expect, and how we can actually get better at it.
We explore what gets in the way of connection, why
it's not just about putting yourself out there, and how
real community is less about finding perfect people and more
about staying when things feel a little uncomfortable. I've seen
this in my own life. I say I want community,
(01:44):
but then I wait for it just to happen. It doesn't.
Connection takes practice. You build it, You show up, you
go to the event, you send the text, and in
Jillian's case, you even start a monthly dinner party. I'm
Eric Zimmer, and this is the one you feed. Hi, Jillian,
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
I am really happy to have you on. We are
going to be discussing your book, which is called un
Lonely Planet, and you do a lot of work around
connection and building friendships and lots of things that I
think are really important. We'll get to all that in
a minute, but we'll start like we always do, with
the Parable. In the Parable, there is a grandmother who's
(02:25):
talking with her grandson and she says, in life, there
are two wolves inside of us that are always at
battle one is a good wolf, which represents things like
kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a
bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear.
And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for
a second, and he looks up at his grandmother. He says, well, grandmother,
which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed.
(02:48):
So I'd like to start off by asking you what
that parable means to you in your life and in
the work that you do.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
For me, what that parable means is who you choose
to focus your attention on. I find it really interesting
that they are the sorts of people who genuinely believe
that people are good, and then there are other people
who genuinely believe that most people are bad. And I
often think about what the difference is between those two
(03:16):
types of people. And I'm really fascinated by the moments
when I kind of can get stuck in that headspace
of just like dating is terrible or people are bad,
these kind of black and white statements. And I find
that the more caring energy and attention I give myself,
(03:38):
the more caring and attentive people I magnetize In my
own life and also the media that I consume. Kind
of what I choose to put my attention on will
then also reflect in my experience of the world.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
I love that, and it makes me think of something
that you talk about in your book. You were quoting
this study I don't remember who it's from, but basically says,
protracted loneliness makes it difficult for us to evaluate other
people's intentions. Lonely people often feel attacked in situations that
are actually neutral. I thought that was a really interesting insight, Like,
(04:15):
the more often you're alone by yourself, the more you
almost start to do what you said, which is we
start to look at other people's intentions more suspiciously.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Yeah, You're at a party and someone just glances at
you from across the room, and your brain might think,
oh my god, that person was giving me the side
eye because I look bad or because they're judging what
I said, when in reality, they might just be looking
at you, but you're so alert and looking out for
signs to confirm you're already bias that people don't like you,
(04:48):
or people are judgmental, whatever that inclination might be.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Yeah, I just thought it was interesting that the more
lonely you are the more that exacerbates itself. You know,
we talk a lot about upward and downwards virals on
this show, and that's a definite downward spiral. Right. So
I'm somewhat lonely, but I'm like, all right, I'll push
myself to get out there.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
And I get out there, and I interpret everybody as negative,
so I want to do it less. So now all
of a sudden, I take another downward cycle towards like
all right, I don't want to go back out and
nobody likes me. Then I push myself. Finally I get
up the moxie to do it another time in similar experience,
until all of a sudden, you go, all right, that's it.
I quit.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Yeah, And that leads to so many people saying, oh,
it's impossible to make friends as an adult. For example,
how many times I've heard people say that, when in reality,
I know so many adults who are yearning for deep friendships,
but they're just not matching each other.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Let's go right into that, because I think that's the
heart of what When you and I met and we
started talking, I was most interested in because I'm really
interested in this idea of loneliness. I'm really interested in
the idea of adult friendship, and I think it is
harder to form friendships as an adult than say it
was when you were at college or as a fourth grader.
(06:07):
But to your point, it's certainly possible. So let's talk
a little bit about what are some of the barriers
that get in the way of making adult friendships, and
then maybe we could go into some of the strategies
for how to do it. And I know this is
something you, in addition to writing about, you actually coach
people on. So I'd love to hear some of you know,
what you find first getting in the way, and then
(06:28):
secondly some strategies we could use.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Well, I think the biggest thing is having the intention
and sticking to it.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
I think in one of your earlier podcasts you mentioned
how no one gets fit by accident, or maybe it
was one of your guests that you didn't just wake
up one day and you're super fit, Like you're putting
conscious intention and energy into it every day. And I
think the same thing goes with making friends as an adult,
to actually set that as a goal, and it's so
(06:59):
interesting to me how many people find that really strange
that someone would set that as a goal, because a
lot of people can tell themselves it's just something I
should know how to do. I should just have friends.
I shouldn't have to put this much thought into it.
There's something wrong with me because I'm trying to make friends.
(07:22):
It feels embarrassing, almost like cringey.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
And it's the same as anything else to say.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
You know, I'm going to go to a new event
two times this month, and I'm gonna have my awareness
open for people I might want to be my friend.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Yeah, I think you're right. You hit on something really
important there. When we're young, it's i mean not for everybody,
but for a lot of people, it's easier to make
friends because everybody is in a similar circumstance. We're all
arriving at college together. Okay, we're by and large, we're
all looking for friends. Yeah, so it seems to happen
somewhat more naturally. When we get older and it doesn't happen,
(08:00):
like you said, I often think we think there's something
wrong with me, or that it shouldn't take this much work.
So I think that's a big barrier. I think the
second thing I was thinking about this recently, I was like,
it seems like there's a lot of mismatch among adults.
And what I mean by that is, again, when we
go to college, we are all roughly eighteen years old,
and I didn't go to college, but I'm I know
(08:22):
people who did. I hear I thinking about it. I
watched my son do it. I'm miss using it as
an example, but we could say the same thing for
fourth grade. Right you show up, you're all roughly the
same age, your lives all look roughly the same as
in like, your primary responsibility is going to school, hanging out.
You know, not everybody, but most people. But when you're
(08:43):
an adult, you can run into real mismatches. Like I
go to an event and I meet somebody and that
person is fifteen years older than me, and our life
circumstances might look very different. They've got three kids and
a full time job and I am underemployed and no kids. Yeah,
it's not that those circumstances are unbridgable. It just means
(09:06):
that sometimes there isn't room in the same way for
friendship for both those people. Right, Like, I've seen this
happen a lot. People are like, I can't make friends
people don't like me. I'm like, well, what it might
be just that some of the people you're talking to
just don't have open social calendars. So I think as
we get as we get older, it gets harder to
find people whose social needs meet ours, as well as
(09:30):
the basic things that go into making what a friendship
would be. So I do think it's harder as an adult,
but it's certainly not impossible by any stretch of the imagination.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
It's not impossible.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
And I think also all those factors you just said
of how many things need to be in alignment for
you to become deeper friends with someone, to hold that
in mind, and then when you find someone who actually
has the space to deepen friendships, get excited about that person.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
I think people really hold themselves back from being earnest
and friendship.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
And if it's okay, I would love to give an
example of some friends I recently made, because I talk
to people about this stuff all the time, and I
know how magic it is when the things actually line up.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
So what happened was I had someone.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
He reached out to me on Instagram and said he
was doing a storytelling show.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
I went to the storytelling show.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
And we talked a little bit, and he invited me
to a party that him and two friends host every month.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
I go to the party.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
I love it. I love the energy of the people there.
It's just this really warm, sweet group of people. I
decide I'm going to go to this party every month.
After the party, messaged both of the hosts and explicitly say,
I had so much fun at your party. I think
the energy of the people at parties matches the hosts.
So I didn't really get to talk to you about
(10:54):
that much, but I really enjoyed being in your space, which.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
Is vulnerable to say that.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
It's like kind of putting myself out there a little bit.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
And it's just a.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Whole long process of I keep going to this party
every month, start to become friends with the hosts, say
just explicitly say I would like to hang out with you,
start hanging out with them at their house, and start
to kind of meet their friends. And we're all having
dinner this Sunday, and I'm so earnest, like we just
(11:25):
started a group chat, and I.
Speaker 4 (11:27):
Literally said, oh my god, I'm so excited we're in
a group chat. Yeah, this is so sweet.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Because most people don't want to seem too excited, like
it's lame to want friends. But I think it's really
brave to say to someone that you're excited about getting
to know them more.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
I think so too. And you mentioned three sort of
relationship strengthening tactics. The second one is we really have
to practice positivity, the reward and enjoyment of each other.
You know, we did an episode recently where Jinny interviewed
Chris and I and Chris is the editor of the show,
and him and I have been friends for I don't
(12:06):
know a long time, twenty five, twenty eight, thirty, I
don't know a lot of years, you know, yeah, wow,
thirty two, thirty three years something like that. Best friends
longer than I have been on this earth. Oh my goodness. Yes.
But we talked a little bit about how, for whatever reason,
when we first became friends, like we were so excited
about being friends, and we talked about how excited we
(12:29):
were to be friends, and we share, I mean, we've
just always shared this positivity, which I think is part
of what has contributed to making it such a close
friendship for so long.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
It's so nice to know and it's really a skill
I think to be able to do that with people.
For me, when I meet someone who's able to also
offer that vulnerability and say, you know, I had a
lot of fun hanging out with you tonight, I would
love to do that again. I know this is a
person I really want to spend time with, because I've
(13:00):
looked at friendships long enough to realize that's a really
special quality in somebody.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
You talk a lot about vulnerability. That was kind of
the first in these relationship strengthening tactics. You know, in
order to feel seen, we have to practice vulnerability, the
sharing of who we are. Is there a line for
you where vulnerability crosses into neediness. We've all had an
experience of somebody who is so desperate to be liked
(13:27):
that they're hard to like. Yeah, and there's a difference
between that and being vulnerable. And I'm just curious if
you have any thoughts on what that difference is or
how you navigate that.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
I can't give a one size fits all answer, but
what I would invite people to do is check in
with themselves about their intention behind sharing something and to say, like, Okay,
am I sharing about some really traumatic childhood experience? Super
early on with this person, so they feel bad for
(13:59):
me me or there's going to be honest with yourself
about what why are you sharing this thing? Because that's
something I've definitely done before of kind of oversharing and
then afterwards feeling embarrassed, I'm like, why did I say that?
Speaker 4 (14:14):
Why? Why did I say that to this person?
Speaker 1 (14:18):
And I think underneath it is just a really strong
desire to connect.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
But at the same time, by sharing too much too soon,
I'm kind of creating a power imbalance and I'm putting
too much on the other person in a way that
isn't fair.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Yeah, And it seems to me that if we think
about this, it's probably good to know your tendency and
to be aware of it and correct for it.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
So Yes.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
In the Spiritual Habits program, we talk about the middle way.
It's one of the core ideas and principles and it
basically says, look, any virtue, so to speak, is a
middle point between two vices. Right. Courage is a middle
point between b you know, rash and idiotic and a coward. Right. So,
knowing which of those sides do I have a tendency
(15:06):
to just sit back and be way too stoic when
I meet new people and not share and not be
vulnerable and not express that I'm excited to be friends
with them. If that's my tendency, maybe I want to
work on course correcting a little bit more towards the
vulnerable side. If, on the other hand, I have a
tendency of, you know, ten minutes after meeting somebody telling
them about you know, my deep dark abuse secrets and
(15:28):
saying I love you. I hope we spend every day
the rest of our lives together, right, I might want
to dial that tendency down in a bit. And so
it's useful to know, like what is my tendency and
to correct for it. But my experience with most adults
is that our tendency is to be much less vulnerable,
to not take a chance of deepening a conversation, of
(15:50):
deepening a relationship. That's been my experience of you know,
being an adult for thirty years now, almost as long
as you've been on the planet. I suppose you're by
to tell me again, I know from your writings you
believe in cultivating the voices of elders. So I'm glad
I can glad I can fill that role but my
experience with most adults is we're more on the whole
(16:11):
backside than we are on the vulnerable side totally.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
And I find there's a specific type of person who
is craving this more open, vulnerable friendship and who.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
Also has the capacity to foster that.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
And I find that when we meet each other, we're
so stoked. Yes, I heard someone recently say it's like
we're in the same graduating class. We understand each other's
kind of just way of being in the world. I
loved that way of phrasing it so much.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Yeah, And while I don't specifically coach people on creating
friendship in the way that you do, that has been
something that a number of my clients over the years
have said, you know, they would like more of it.
And we talk a lot about that basic idea of like,
it's some juncture somebody has to take quote unquote the
next step. In the same way in a dating situation,
(17:05):
somebody's got to sort of say, all right, I'm gonna
I'm gonna take a chance of seeing it. Where does
this go if I take the next step? I think
the same thing happens in friendship for sure, Where even
if that next step is just to drop one level
deeper in intimacy of conversation, to say, all right, we've
been hanging out here on the surface, I'm gonna take
the chance to go one level deeper. And I've shared
(17:27):
this on the show before. I used to do that
at work all the time. Like I mean, I just
in the beginning, after I got sober at twenty four,
I would just walk into a room and be like, hey,
I'm a I'm a heroin addict. You know, I got
sober six months ago. And you know, over time I
was like, all right, we need to dial that down
a little bit. But I always had that tendency of
I would just go a little bit deeper than most
people would. And I just found that over and over
(17:52):
that paid dividends for me in that it made me
much better at my work a because people trusted me
more and be I just made more friends that way,
more authentic friendships that way, by simply just being willing
to be a little bit more open about what mattered.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Yeah, because I imagine the people who are really uncomfortable with
you sharing those parts of yourself weren't comfortable with the
parts of themselves that were struggling, and those aren't people
that you want to be friends.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
With, That's right, Yeah, you're just like, well, I mean
I never really found it to be that damaging. I
mean maybe I had good enough self esteem that I
was just sort of like, well, not everybody has to
like me. Yeah, but yeah, I just I think that
is such an important pieces to sort of just recognize, like,
if I want this relationship, I've met somebody that seems
like I like them, how do we take it to
(18:38):
the next level? And I think your suggestions in the
book of being more Vulnerable practicing positivity. And then the
third one you talk about is consistency. Share a little
bit more about that.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Yeah, I think, especially if people live in a big city,
it can be difficult to find the time to see
someone consistently. This is a problem I will still run
up against of having so many people I really genuinely
love and want to spend time with, but then we
just don't have the time and energy to coordinate our
schedules and figure out the spot and do the whole thing,
and so to have these kind of central meeting places.
(19:11):
For example, it could be a dance party or a
house party, or a meditation class that you go to
or a yoga class, say Okay, I'm doing this thing
every week or every month, and I know if you
want to find me, I will be there, or if
I want to find you, you'll probably be there. And
it's a great way to just consistently see people be
(19:32):
around the types of people who value the same things
that you do, and also to start to deepen those
relationships a little bit.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
One of the things that I've noticed we may be
working with slightly different demographics potentially, as we've already sort
of laid out the age difference between us, right, is
that a lot of people that I work with say
they want more community, but their lives are very, very
full and they just tend to not make time time
(20:00):
for it. That's something that I found very interesting in
somebody who's trying to build a community, is that people say, yes,
I want that, Yes I want that, but then they
don't show up that often for it.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
Totally.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
A lot of the people that are sort of in
our communities are going to be people who are deep
in career and deep in family. So that's part of it.
But do you see that also where people say I
want friendships, I want community, but then they just simply
don't put the effort of the time in. They just
default to Netflix and hanging out totally.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
And I think it's especially that people don't want the
uncomfortable parts that come with community, which is there's going
to be conflicts, and there's going to be maybe some
people you don't like, or you're going to be jealous
of someone, or someone's going to mirror something in you
that feels awkward or uncomfortable, and it's so easy to
(20:53):
just be like, well, I guess I'm never going to
hang out with these people again, or I guess I
just won't communicate what's going on and then I feel
disconnected from these people, and then I kind of just
drift away, and I tell myself, oh, we just drifted apart,
But really I haven't been communicating the truth of my heart,
and I've been creating this distance myself.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
That was a lot.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
I had a lot of energy behind that, but it
really feels very annoying to me because I think so
many people share the struggle and just don't necessarily realize
that they don't have a tolerance for having any sort
of uncomfortable conversation.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
I am not a good group joiner. I think I'm
decent at fostering individual relationships, but I've never been a
group joiner. Particularly over the last five years, I've gotten
clearer that a lot of it is what you were
just saying. I'm looking for the perfect community. I'm looking
for the community where I like everyone. So if I'm
(22:17):
thinking of a Buddhist community or a spiritual community, I'm like, yeah,
those couple people see my right, But I don't like
those three people, so this isn't the place for me.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
Yeah, so I'm never coming here again.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Yeah, which is what I would do over and over
and over. And so I heard somebody say once and
use words a little bit. I don't remember exactly which ones,
but you alluded to it a little bit, which was
that part of the point of community is to rub
off our rough edges, that by interacting with these other people,
it smooths us out and allows us to integrate more
(22:47):
harmoniously into a group. And I thought once I heard that,
I went, oh, that makes a lot of sense. The
point here isn't that I like everybody and they're all
my best friends. The point is I'm interacting with a
variety of different people, and that there's benefit and beauty
in that totally.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
There's benefit in me being around people who I wouldn't
choose to be my friend, but the sheer nature of
our differences is actually good for us just to be
able to be in that.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
How do you work with people who are saying, yeah,
I want community, but aren't putting the effort in to
get it. It's very similar to somebody who says they
want to be in shape, but they're not putting the
effort to get into it. What sort of things have
you found helps on blocked?
Speaker 1 (23:27):
I think the biggest thing is to start by asking
questions around their fears. Say well, okay, there's clearly something
that's preventing you from doing this, because if you were
one hundred percent in, you wouldn't need anyone to help you,
you would just be doing it.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:40):
So a lot of times.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
I'll ask people what's been your experience with communities in
the past, and oftentimes something really awful will come up, like, oh,
I was part of this group and a girl in
the group like cheated on my boyfriend. You don't try
to say that my boyfriend cheated on me with this
person in the group. There was a terrible experience, or
I got bullied, or I didn't feel like I fit
(24:03):
in there, anything along those lines were Unconsciously, they're thinking, well,
I had a really bad experience in a community before,
so why would I want to put myself through that again?
But just don't take the time to reflect on it.
Because I think, even in the world of personal development,
where we reflect so much on all these elements of
ourselves constantly and rarely think about our relationship to group
(24:25):
and kind of in group, outgroup, what's my experience with community?
Because culturally we don't care about it very much, So
I would we think about it consciously?
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Yeah? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Before we
dive back into the conversation, let me ask you something.
What's one thing that has been holding you back lately?
You know that it's there, You've tried to push past it,
but somehow it keeps getting in the way. You're not
alone in this, and I've identified six major saboteurs of
(24:55):
self control, things like autopilot behavior, self doubt, emotionalless gapism
that quietly derail our best intentions. But here's the good news.
You can outsmart them. And I've put together a free
guide to help you spot these hidden obstacles and give
you simple, actionable strategies that you can use to regain control.
(25:16):
Download the free guide now at oneufeed dot net slash
ebook and take the first step towards getting back on track.
So if I am a person and I say, okay,
I'm lonely, I want to change that, where do I start?
You know, what are some things I can start doing?
Let's just say I'm like, well, I'll give you a
little bit more than that to go on. I work
(25:37):
from home. I have three or four other people that
you know, I interact within my company and I've known
them for a while and they're fine, but we're not
going to be great friends. I don't have a church
that I want to go to. I'm lonely, and I'm
not sure where to start. What are some initial steps
I can take? And you can tailor this answer two ways.
You can tailor it towards New York City, which is
(25:59):
or a big city which just where you are, and
you've created something called the joy List and lots of
great things. But we could also talk about people who
are in a place that's not quite so vibrant.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Yeah, I'll go a little more general, okay, And I
feel very excited about this question. The first question I
always ask people is what kind of person do you
want to be? Who do you want to be just
in life? And also how do you want to exist
within the place where you live? Could be New York City,
could be somewhere else. Because you might not want to
(26:30):
be a group person. You might say, you know, my
ideal vision for my friendships and my community is maybe
I'm kind of the hub for parties in my neighborhood.
I have dinner parties, people come to me, I have
an awesome backyard.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
I've got a core group of ten.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Friends, and we host stuff on a month. That might
be your vision for yourself, and that's awesome, like already
having just a vision.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
For what you want.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Yeah, and especially the qualities to say, I want to
be around people who care about spirituality. I want to
be the kind of person who's a generous host, I
want to care for my body. Even say, okay, what
types of people care about those things?
Speaker 4 (27:12):
Where can you meet those types of people?
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Because if you want to meet spiritual nerds who love
working out, just go into the bar every Friday night,
you're probably not going to meet those people, or if
you do meet those people, you don't know that you're
meeting those people because you're not in that context.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
Yep, let's run with this example. So let's say I
live in a mid size community somewhere in the US,
and I'm like, yeah, that is what I want. I
just moved to this new town. I'd like to have
a small group of friends. I do have a wonderful
backyard and I've got a great patio. I love to
cook dinner. I just love to have a group of
friends that gets together once or twice a month in
(27:50):
my backyard and we hang out and we have dinner
and we just have some nice conversation. Like that would
be amazing for me compared to where I'm at. Now,
what do I do if someone came to you with
that's what I want.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
So I have some friends.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
They are nomads and they're constantly traveling, but they're somehow
also always hosting things themselves, even in countries where they
don't really know people, and it's wild.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
And I ask them, how do you manage to pull
this off?
Speaker 1 (28:15):
And they'll say, Okay, well, I know three people in
this town and I tell them I want to host
a dinner party.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
Can each of you invite three people?
Speaker 1 (28:24):
And you could even say, can you invite three people
you know who might love spirituality if you want to
get a little more specific, suddenly you have a ten
person dinner party and then at the end of that say,
you know, I'm going to do this again next month,
same day next month.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
Would love if you guys could invite some people. I
want to make this.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
A monthly thing and even having the next date and
saying to people.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
I'd love for you to come again.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
I have two friends who do this every month and
they have an incredibly vibrant community that comes to them.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
It's a pretty sweet deal.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Yeah, So you take whoever you know and you use
those people to so of network out from there totally.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
And even if you want it to be as vulnerable
as saying I want to create a deeper community for
myself here, it'd be so helpful if you guys can
invite some folks Like that feel really good for me
because I find when people know why you're asking them something,
they're more likely to do it instead of you just
being like, oh, yeah, invite some friends if you want, Like,
there's a reason why you're asking them to do that.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Right, You're taking that step of being a little bit
vulnerable and asking for what you want.
Speaker 4 (29:28):
Because it's like, oh my god.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Who doesn't want to say like, oh yeah, let me
invite my three coolest friends so you can meet them.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
Yeah, this is great.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
So what if I'm not even in that place where
I know much of anybody in that town? So, yeah,
I moved here for my job. I'm a shy person.
I just don't really know anyone. Where do I start there?
Speaker 1 (29:47):
So something that I recommend that is very simple but
definitely not easy, is posting on social media if you
have it, or sending an email and saying, hey, I
just moved to wherever you live. I'm looking to meet
people who are interested in blah blah blah.
Speaker 4 (30:03):
Who do you know?
Speaker 1 (30:04):
And this is something that is so simple, but folks
love this kind of post on the internet because all
they have to do is tag somebody and they get
to feel great about themselves and it takes two seconds.
Speaker 4 (30:16):
And you might have three, five, ten people.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Who all of a sudden you can reach out to
and all you had to do is just let people
know that you're looking for.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
That that's a great idea. What about starting to attend
gatherings or volunteer events? All right, I'm willing to put
myself out there a little bit, Yeah, in order to
meet some new people. What does that look like? How
do I go about finding things? What do I do
when I get there? When I attend them? Again? If
you're in New York City, you get on Jillian's joy list?
Speaker 4 (30:46):
Yeah, you do.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
I see that joy list every time. I'm like, God,
I am jealous. That is so cool, so much great stuff.
There lots of weird stuff going on in New York
City totally. But what do I do if I don't
have that? Where are some places I can two that
are more broadly accessible ways to find gathering things that
I'm interested in, etc.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (31:06):
So first of all, I would start on meetup and
event right. On event right, there is a filter that
you can look for. There's different event categories, and there's
one called community. There's literally an event category called community.
So you can say, Okay, what are the community events
happening in my neighborhood this week? Or you could filter
for fitness events, you could filter for religious events.
Speaker 4 (31:29):
You can even filter by a keyword.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
You could look for a women's circle, for example, or
the word sober and just see what pops up, and
to then commit to yourself to say, Okay, I'm going
to go to this group at least twice, even if
the first time I don't like it very much, or
even if the first time I feel so nervous and
I don't talk to anyone and I feel really weird,
(31:52):
to go twice. And also you said the magic word before,
which is volunteer. I think, honestly, this is the biggest
for making friends in a new place, is to go
to an event that has the kinds of people that
you think you'd like. Like for example, in New York City,
there's this big meditation event called medi Club, And I
would volunteer at this event every month because the people
(32:15):
who volunteer are more likely to want to make new friends,
Like that's a big reason why people volunteer. But also
it gives you direct access to the organizers of the event.
And the organizers of events are usually community hubs who
are more than happy to introduce you to whoever you want.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
So find events and if you can volunte tier at them.
And I think the other thing you said, there's really
important is to go at least twice, you know, if
not more right. I've started recently doing this thing in
Columbus I love doing so volunteers called Food Rescue, and
it's basically there's an organization. They're all around the country,
but they basically find food that's going to be thrown
(33:18):
away somewhere, whether it's from a restaurant, a grocery store, whatever,
and then they match that up with a place that
needs it, and you basically go get it from one place,
take it to another. But they've had this thing where
they distribute these like thousands of boxes of produce every Friday,
and so I was like, all right, I'm going to
start going. And I am not actually very good at
(33:38):
PLoP me in a new environment with a bunch of
people I don't know. I don't do well in that environment.
I am sort of shy, I'm sort of quiet, I'm
sort of withdrawn. And it's interesting. It's not even that
I notice that I'm shy and withdrawing. That's part of it.
But what's interesting is my defense mechanisms kicking enough that
I don't even feel like I want to get to
(33:59):
know anybody in that environment. It's so interesting. It's like,
if you ask me on Wednesday night, when I'm going
to this thing on Friday, would you like to meet
some new people there, I'm like, of course I would.
That would be great. Put me there Friday. And all
of a sudden, I'm like, my phone is really interesting
to me right now.
Speaker 4 (34:13):
You're like, look at my shoes is not like really
cool shoes.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
Man, Maybe I should just sit in the car and
listen to this book on tape. It's so interesting to
me the way that happens. My defense mechanisms rise up
so quickly, I don't even see them, and then they're like,
you don't really, who cares? You don't need to make
any hands. So interesting. Anyway, I've been going to this
thing on Fridays, and I mean, I think it took
like five times before I started actually getting into conversation
(34:38):
with people like I was there, we were friendly, Hey,
how you doing good? Let's load these boxes. Like But
after about the fifth time, something in me just shifted
and I naturally started to just sort of emerge from
my shell a little bit. And so I just know
that about me that it takes me a little while.
And so I know if I'm going to embed myself
in something like that, I'm going to have to go
(35:00):
ultiple times. But I imagine there are things that I
could do if I wanted to accelerate that process. What
might be some ways of getting into the conversational flow
or meeting somebody, or again just going from sort of
standing there to engaging a little bit more.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Well, I think you are definitely not alone, or I
know you're not alone in your experience of going to
an event that's not facilitated and not being sure how.
Speaker 4 (35:25):
To go deeper with people.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Yeah, because you don't know the norms of the space,
you don't know what's acceptable there, you don't really know
who these people are. It's like going to a giant
happy hour that's a networking event where no one tells
you what to do, and you're just like, yes, we're
supposed to connect with each other.
Speaker 4 (35:41):
What the hell is this? Like this is.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Awful, which is why And I'm such an extroverted person,
but I hate things like that with a passion because
it's such a draining environment for me to be in
where there is no understanding of what you're supposed.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
To do in the space.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
You're kind of just thrown into this giant room of
people talking over each other. So the biggest thing I
would say is that if you can find an event
that has facilitation, try that. So, for example, in New
York City, and this is a very New York City thing,
but there's this thing called Vulnerable af that this woman
named Veronica runs. It's like a great name, and now
(36:18):
she goes on tour and she does it and it's
so great. But it's essentially just facilitated conversations where she's
giving you prompts to say to strangers, and there's some
group exercises, and there's no way you're not going to
leave that event without having had a deeper conversation with someone.
And the people who show up at that event are
obviously looking to have deeper conversations with new people, so
(36:41):
you're kind of already all in the same space.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
That's a great event. I think it's really good advice
go to something that is sort of facilitated. It's one
of the reasons why I've always been grateful to have
been a member of AA. Yeah, I'm not real involved now,
but I'm like, if I move to a new city, like,
how easy is it I just start going to meeting.
The meetian have conversations that are already structured. You get
to hear a bunch of people talk and be like,
(37:04):
I like what that guy had to say. I like
what she had to say. Okay, those are kind of
people I got my eye on. It makes it happen
so much easier than what you described, which is like
this food rescue situation where I show up. And again, now,
this organization is not designed to help people meet each other.
It's designed to get food to the places it needs
to go. So if my food rescue friends are listening
(37:26):
that none of this is criticism, right, Like, it's not
what it's about. But you describe this sort of event
that a lot of us show up to, we go,
all right, I'm going to volunteer somewhere. And I think
you make a really good point that where we're volunteering
puts this in proximity to the people. But there are
no real rules for interaction and there's no guided interaction.
(37:47):
It kind of falls all on your own moxie. And again,
what I've learned about me is that my moxie will
grow over time. You know, there's just something that naturally
thaws in me. If I'm around the same people enough times.
But I love that idea of going to things that
are facilitated as a way of that naturally happening. In
our Spiritual Habits group program, I think we break the
(38:09):
big group up into small groups that meet every week,
and there's been a lot of really great deep relationships
formed there, and I think to a large extent, it's
what we train the facilitators. But secondly, it's there is
a facilitated conversation about things that matter to you right away,
so immediately there is a way to engage and make
deeper connection because it is, as you said, a sort
(38:32):
of facilitated event. Questions are asked, there's conversation, it happens.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Yeah, I think this is why these question card games
have suddenly blown up in popularity. Like everyone under the
sun has a set of question cards that they're selling.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
I don't, because I think I need some make.
Speaker 4 (38:49):
Some question cards.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
Esther Parell just came out with a game based off
of her podcast that's entirely questions that increase in vulnerability,
and they're all questions about out storytelling so that you
tell a story. You should have her on your podcast.
She's promoting this.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
New game right now.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
But I've had a few friends say that at their
dinner parties they've actually played her game. Interesting, And it's
so great because I find that when we're around the
same people a lot, we lose curiosity about them, like
they kind of just become something that they're just there.
You're like, oh, yeah, this is my friend I've known
since I was five. What else is there for me
(39:27):
to know about this person? And then you ask them
a question like, oh, what's one of your favorite memories
of being with your grandmom?
Speaker 4 (39:33):
Like when have you ever talked about that with them before?
Probably never, never, And so you're going to get this
whole new thing.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
I've been friends with Chris, as I said, for a
really long time, I couldn't tell you the first thing
about his grandparents.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Yeah, I find grandparents is a really interesting thing because
most adults that would never come up in conversation. But
there's so much you can learn about someone's family and
their culture from talking about that.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
With Chris, It's probably going to end up being a
conversation about like drunk uncles or something than if if
I know anything about that family. But yeah, same, my family.
Speaker 4 (40:05):
Too, not me that's a family culture for sure.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
Total family culture. I have an uncle who died from alcoholism,
So I am just in it myself before we maybe
change directions a little bit for the last few minutes.
What else about making friendship creating community? What else should
people know or what are some really important things from
your coaching practice that you would share with people?
Speaker 1 (40:27):
I think the biggest thing is to really be kind
to yourself in this process. Folks can be so brutal
to themselves and so judgmental just being like, man, it's
pathetic that I don't have friends, Like what kind of
loser doesn't know how to make friends?
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Like?
Speaker 4 (40:44):
These mean vicious.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Things people will say to themselves when in reality, the
average American hasn't made a new friend in five years.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
And seventy five percent of Americans are not satisfied with
their friendships. So more likely than not, any person you
meet is looking for new friends and is looking for
deeper connection. And the people who have really rich friend
groups are in the vast minority. Yes, and that's so
(41:13):
important for people to keep in mind.
Speaker 3 (41:15):
Yeah, that's a really good point. And you say early
on in your book that loneliness is systematic it's not
an individual problem. It's systematic.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
Right.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
So to your point, if we don't have as rich
a friendship or community life as we want, we are,
like you said, we are far from alone. Matter of fact,
we are in the majority, and the way our society
is set up makes it harder and harder to do
that and have that. And so it's not an individual failing.
Speaker 4 (41:41):
Totally, not an individual failing at all.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
I think the second thing there is kind of what
I just did a little bit not to be like, oh,
look how great I am. But if you'll know, hey,
I'm great now. But when I talked about going to
this food rescue thing right like fifteen years ago, I'd
have been really hard on myself, like why are you
not talking too, You're not meeting people? What's wrong with you?
And now I'm just a lot more kind with myself
(42:05):
and I go, I know my process. Yeah, it takes
me a few times, so okay, yeah that's the way
I am. So I know I just need to go
a few more times I'll get there. Instead of being
like walking in the first time and being like if
I don't walk out of here with three friends, I've failed. Yeah,
And I think that's how a lot of us orient
towards this. I want more friends, I'm going to go
to this event, I walk out. I don't have any friends.
(42:26):
I failed, and so I'm not gonna do it again,
because who wants to keep failing totally?
Speaker 1 (42:30):
And how many people have that mindset in all sorts
of things like yes, a job interview or going on dates?
Be like, well, this one was bad. Confirms what I
already thought. So I'm just not going to do this again.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
Yep, that's a really good point. You had some funny
things I saw on social recently. You know, I think
you're dating, and you and your friends were riffing on
reasons that somebody might not be getting back to you,
the different reasons. And I was laughing because because the
interpretation is they're not getting back to me because they
don't like me, and you're like, well, yeah, they might
be awful, tripping on LSD, they might be high af
(43:04):
you know, they might. I thought it was funny, Yeah,
just riffing or like, here's all the different reasons.
Speaker 4 (43:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
I was talking to a female friend because we're both dating,
and how funny it is that if like we're at
a party and someone's being kind of weird with us,
or they're not responding to our text. Our assumption is, well,
they think I'm gross and bad and I'm just awful,
and that's why they're not asking me out or whatever.
Speaker 4 (43:26):
And then we started.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Talking about actual reasons when we've misinterpreted what was going on.
And she told the funniest story of how this guy
was sending her text that didn't make sense and she
thought he was trying to avoid going on a date
with her, when in reality he.
Speaker 4 (43:42):
Was just tripping super hard. You know, it's like the
best story.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
That's a greeting, like keep your phone off.
Speaker 4 (43:54):
Might not be making Maybe they're drunk or maybe they're high.
I don't know. Thank you for supporting my internet life.
It feels good.
Speaker 3 (44:02):
You know, you're in the middle of the psychedelic renaissance
when you have to be like, well, we're no longer
talking about drunk dialing, we're talking about tripping texting. Don't
do it. I want to shift directions for a second
and talk about something that you have done. One program
you did was called Allied, although you've done several others.
Allied was a seven week training for white leaders to
(44:23):
skillfully engage in conversations about race. And we've had a
bunch of conversations around race on this show. We're primarily
a white audience. I'd love to know some of what
you've learned through those various trainings you've done. I know
I'm asking you a huge topic with you know, like
four minutes left in the conversation. So, but any things
(44:44):
that really stood out to you that gave you like
okay as a as a white person. If I want
to be a better ally, here are some of the
things I'm going to do.
Speaker 4 (44:52):
Yeah, I can quickly say. So.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
Allied was led by this teacher named Harry Pickens, who
is a black man who wanted to work with white leaders.
And the biggest thing I got from that was how
can we train our nervous systems to be okay in
conversations where we are not comfortable, especially with people who.
Speaker 4 (45:11):
Do not agree with us.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
And a case study we were looking at a lot
is Darryl Davis, who is a black man who famously
befriended members of the klu Klux Plan and then actually
got them to leave because he was in relationship with them.
And the process took a very long time and of course,
that's not an approach that a lot of people agree with,
(45:33):
but it's one that is really interesting in that that's
the ultimate example of being comfortable across.
Speaker 4 (45:41):
Lines of difference and being with people who might not
like you at all.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
And so I have really tried, and of course as
I'm saying this, I'm judging myself for not doing better,
but to be with folks who are white conservatives, for example,
to talk about their beliefs, or to be comfortable, because
I can really fall into people pleasing to be comfortable
enough to challenge people and just to say just having
(46:09):
these sentence stems in my back pocket, like oh why
do you think that? Or oh has that been your experience,
and to just give people the space to kind of
talk out this thing they might think of without questioning it.
Speaker 4 (46:26):
So that's one thing. And the second thing I'll.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
Quickly say is that I did this training called Bridges
and Boundaries, which was three days primarily white folks, but
there are also some black folks in the room, and
it was a very intense, super in your face training
about looking at your own racism. And really the main
point that I got from that was that white people
(46:50):
are racist and we do think that we're better than
other races, and we have to acknowledge that in ourselves
in order to move forwards and to just and I
feel hot and saying that out loud, but to be like,
I think I'm better, I have to tell myself that
I've been so programmed my entire life, and our country's
been programmed to think that I'm better. And people of
(47:12):
color know that we think that, and if we can't
say that to ourselves, we can't do any work.
Speaker 4 (47:20):
I mean, that weekend kicked me in the face. It
was not fun.
Speaker 3 (47:24):
I bet you know. It makes me think my initial
like instantly that uncomfortableness raises a defense in me where
I want to go. But people of other raceists think
they're better then that there's an in group out group thing, right.
But the difference, of course, is that our race is
controlling everything and is in charge of everything.
Speaker 4 (47:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (47:43):
We interviewed Ibermex Kendy on the show, and one of
the things that he talked about that I found so
valuable was to move away from saying I am or
I am not a racist, or you are or you
are not a racist, and to say I have some
racist thoughts I have some racist beliefs. I did a
(48:05):
racist thing. And I found that a really interesting switch
because it's a little bit like the difference between shame
I am bad, I am a racist, to I do
think racist things. Oh, I have behaviors, actions, etc. That
are that way, and thusly I can work on changing them.
(48:28):
For me, that was a way of sort of being
able to walk into the ground you're talking about and go, yes,
I do I have racist thoughts. I think things that
are racist, I have done things that are racist thoughts
that run through my head. Was really helpful because then
I was able to sort of again step out of
the shame of I'm this awful person to I have
these behaviors, right, which is sort of the difference between
(48:51):
I think healthy guilt and shame shame as I'm bad.
Healthy guilt is I'm doing things that don't match my values.
I want to change.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
Yeah, And I think this training that was so impactful
of having it be a mixed race group was to realize, Okay,
it's so uncomfortable for me to look at these racist
parts of myself, and if I don't, I'm going to
keep unintentionally hurting these other people in the room. Yeah,
(49:18):
so which one am I going to choose?
Speaker 4 (49:20):
Because we're being forced to choose, like look at ourselves
and say, Okay, if I don't examine this.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
Stuff, which I have the full power to never examine
and never look at and never think about because it's
deeply uncomfortable, I will, for the rest of my life
hurt people more. And of course I'm still going to
do racist stuff for the rest of my life because
it's just I'm a human, but I'll probably do it
a little bit more, or at least I'll be able
to apologize.
Speaker 4 (49:45):
More skillfully in the future if I look at.
Speaker 3 (49:46):
This stuff that's really powerful and really difficult work. Before
we wrap up, I want you to think about this.
Have you ever ended the day feeling like your choices
didn't quite match the person you wanted to be. Maybe
it was autopilot mode or self doubt that made it
harder to stick to your goals. And that's exactly why
(50:07):
I created The Six Saboteurs of Self Control. It's a
free guide to help you recognize the hidden patterns that
hold you back and give you simple, effective strategies to
break through them. If you're ready to take back control
and start making lasting changes. Download your copy now at
oneufeed dot net slash ebook. Let's make those shifts happen
(50:30):
starting today one you feed dot net slash ebook. We're
at the end of our time. You and I are
going to go into the post show conversation, and I
actually want to explore something you said a few minutes
ago in more detail. You talked about challenging people or
having open conversation with people who think different things than us,
particularly maybe around a topic like race. As we head
(50:51):
into the holidays, many people are going about to get
some great opportunities for this, and so let's talk about
some skills because I do. There's a difference between turn
my Thanksgiving dinner table into a nuclear war versus actually
engage in dialogue with people who think differently than me
in a hope of increasing understanding. So we'll talk about
(51:14):
that in the post show conversation. Listeners, if you'd like
access to the post show conversation, you can go to
one you feed dot net slash Join you get this
post show conversation, You'll get ad free episodes. You'll get
a special episode I do every week called Teaching Song
and a poem where I share a song I love,
a poem I love, as well as a teaching and
(51:34):
lots of other great benefits of being a member when
you feed dot net slash join Jillian. Thank you so
much for coming on. I have really really enjoyed this
and it's been a pleasure to get to talk with
you for everyone.
Speaker 4 (51:45):
Thank you for having me. I feel super energized.
Speaker 3 (52:03):
Thank you so much for listening to the show. If
you found this conversation helpful, inspiring, or thought provoking, I'd
love for you to share it with a friend. Sharing
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and that's you. Just hit the share button on your
(52:24):
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one you Feed community.
So many people share the struggle and just don't necessarily
realize that they don't have a tolerance for having any
sort of uncomfortable conversation.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Wow, welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great
thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have,
quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what
you think ring true, And yet for many of us,
our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
(00:35):
self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
have instead of what we do. We think things that
hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
(00:56):
the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Have you ever noticed how making friends as an adult
feels weirdly complicated. We say we want more connection, but
then we don't go to the thing, don't follow up,
and decide that Netflix just sounds easier. In this episode,
I talk with Gillian Richardson, author, coach and creator of
the joy List about why friendship takes more effort than
(01:23):
we expect, and how we can actually get better at it.
We explore what gets in the way of connection, why
it's not just about putting yourself out there, and how
real community is less about finding perfect people and more
about staying when things feel a little uncomfortable. I've seen
this in my own life. I say I want community,
(01:44):
but then I wait for it just to happen. It doesn't.
Connection takes practice. You build it, You show up, you
go to the event, you send the text, and in
Jillian's case, you even start a monthly dinner party. I'm
Eric Zimmer, and this is the one you feed. Hi, Jillian,
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
I am really happy to have you on. We are
going to be discussing your book, which is called un
Lonely Planet, and you do a lot of work around
connection and building friendships and lots of things that I
think are really important. We'll get to all that in
a minute, but we'll start like we always do, with
the Parable. In the Parable, there is a grandmother who's
(02:25):
talking with her grandson and she says, in life, there
are two wolves inside of us that are always at
battle one is a good wolf, which represents things like
kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a
bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear.
And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for
a second, and he looks up at his grandmother. He says, well, grandmother,
which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed.
(02:48):
So I'd like to start off by asking you what
that parable means to you in your life and in
the work that you do.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
For me, what that parable means is who you choose
to focus your attention on. I find it really interesting
that they are the sorts of people who genuinely believe
that people are good, and then there are other people
who genuinely believe that most people are bad. And I
often think about what the difference is between those two
(03:16):
types of people. And I'm really fascinated by the moments
when I kind of can get stuck in that headspace
of just like dating is terrible or people are bad,
these kind of black and white statements. And I find
that the more caring energy and attention I give myself,
(03:38):
the more caring and attentive people I magnetize In my
own life and also the media that I consume. Kind
of what I choose to put my attention on will
then also reflect in my experience of the world.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
I love that, and it makes me think of something
that you talk about in your book. You were quoting
this study I don't remember who it's from, but basically says,
protracted loneliness makes it difficult for us to evaluate other
people's intentions. Lonely people often feel attacked in situations that
are actually neutral. I thought that was a really interesting insight, Like,
(04:15):
the more often you're alone by yourself, the more you
almost start to do what you said, which is we
start to look at other people's intentions more suspiciously.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Yeah, You're at a party and someone just glances at
you from across the room, and your brain might think,
oh my god, that person was giving me the side
eye because I look bad or because they're judging what
I said, when in reality, they might just be looking
at you, but you're so alert and looking out for
signs to confirm you're already bias that people don't like you,
(04:48):
or people are judgmental, whatever that inclination might be.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Yeah, I just thought it was interesting that the more
lonely you are the more that exacerbates itself. You know,
we talk a lot about upward and downwards virals on
this show, and that's a definite downward spiral. Right. So
I'm somewhat lonely, but I'm like, all right, I'll push
myself to get out there.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
And I get out there, and I interpret everybody as negative,
so I want to do it less. So now all
of a sudden, I take another downward cycle towards like
all right, I don't want to go back out and
nobody likes me. Then I push myself. Finally I get
up the moxie to do it another time in similar experience,
until all of a sudden, you go, all right, that's it.
I quit.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Yeah, And that leads to so many people saying, oh,
it's impossible to make friends as an adult. For example,
how many times I've heard people say that, when in reality,
I know so many adults who are yearning for deep friendships,
but they're just not matching each other.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Let's go right into that, because I think that's the
heart of what When you and I met and we
started talking, I was most interested in because I'm really
interested in this idea of loneliness. I'm really interested in
the idea of adult friendship, and I think it is
harder to form friendships as an adult than say it
was when you were at college or as a fourth grader.
(06:07):
But to your point, it's certainly possible. So let's talk
a little bit about what are some of the barriers
that get in the way of making adult friendships, and
then maybe we could go into some of the strategies
for how to do it. And I know this is
something you, in addition to writing about, you actually coach
people on. So I'd love to hear some of you know,
what you find first getting in the way, and then
(06:28):
secondly some strategies we could use.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Well, I think the biggest thing is having the intention
and sticking to it.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
I think in one of your earlier podcasts you mentioned
how no one gets fit by accident, or maybe it
was one of your guests that you didn't just wake
up one day and you're super fit, Like you're putting
conscious intention and energy into it every day. And I
think the same thing goes with making friends as an adult,
to actually set that as a goal, and it's so
(06:59):
interesting to me how many people find that really strange
that someone would set that as a goal, because a
lot of people can tell themselves it's just something I
should know how to do. I should just have friends.
I shouldn't have to put this much thought into it.
There's something wrong with me because I'm trying to make friends.
(07:22):
It feels embarrassing, almost like cringey.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
And it's the same as anything else to say.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
You know, I'm going to go to a new event
two times this month, and I'm gonna have my awareness
open for people I might want to be my friend.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Yeah, I think you're right. You hit on something really
important there. When we're young, it's i mean not for everybody,
but for a lot of people, it's easier to make
friends because everybody is in a similar circumstance. We're all
arriving at college together. Okay, we're by and large, we're
all looking for friends. Yeah, so it seems to happen
somewhat more naturally. When we get older and it doesn't happen,
(08:00):
like you said, I often think we think there's something
wrong with me, or that it shouldn't take this much work.
So I think that's a big barrier. I think the
second thing I was thinking about this recently, I was like,
it seems like there's a lot of mismatch among adults.
And what I mean by that is, again, when we
go to college, we are all roughly eighteen years old,
and I didn't go to college, but I'm I know
(08:22):
people who did. I hear I thinking about it. I
watched my son do it. I'm miss using it as
an example, but we could say the same thing for
fourth grade. Right you show up, you're all roughly the
same age, your lives all look roughly the same as
in like, your primary responsibility is going to school, hanging out.
You know, not everybody, but most people. But when you're
(08:43):
an adult, you can run into real mismatches. Like I
go to an event and I meet somebody and that
person is fifteen years older than me, and our life
circumstances might look very different. They've got three kids and
a full time job and I am underemployed and no kids. Yeah,
it's not that those circumstances are unbridgable. It just means
(09:06):
that sometimes there isn't room in the same way for
friendship for both those people. Right, Like, I've seen this
happen a lot. People are like, I can't make friends
people don't like me. I'm like, well, what it might
be just that some of the people you're talking to
just don't have open social calendars. So I think as
we get as we get older, it gets harder to
find people whose social needs meet ours, as well as
(09:30):
the basic things that go into making what a friendship
would be. So I do think it's harder as an adult,
but it's certainly not impossible by any stretch of the imagination.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
It's not impossible.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
And I think also all those factors you just said
of how many things need to be in alignment for
you to become deeper friends with someone, to hold that
in mind, and then when you find someone who actually
has the space to deepen friendships, get excited about that person.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
I think people really hold themselves back from being earnest
and friendship.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
And if it's okay, I would love to give an
example of some friends I recently made, because I talk
to people about this stuff all the time, and I
know how magic it is when the things actually line up.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
So what happened was I had someone.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
He reached out to me on Instagram and said he
was doing a storytelling show.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
I went to the storytelling show.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
And we talked a little bit, and he invited me
to a party that him and two friends host every month.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
I go to the party.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
I love it. I love the energy of the people there.
It's just this really warm, sweet group of people. I
decide I'm going to go to this party every month.
After the party, messaged both of the hosts and explicitly say,
I had so much fun at your party. I think
the energy of the people at parties matches the hosts.
So I didn't really get to talk to you about
(10:54):
that much, but I really enjoyed being in your space, which.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
Is vulnerable to say that.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
It's like kind of putting myself out there a little bit.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
And it's just a.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Whole long process of I keep going to this party
every month, start to become friends with the hosts, say
just explicitly say I would like to hang out with you,
start hanging out with them at their house, and start
to kind of meet their friends. And we're all having
dinner this Sunday, and I'm so earnest, like we just
(11:25):
started a group chat, and I.
Speaker 4 (11:27):
Literally said, oh my god, I'm so excited we're in
a group chat. Yeah, this is so sweet.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Because most people don't want to seem too excited, like
it's lame to want friends. But I think it's really
brave to say to someone that you're excited about getting
to know them more.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
I think so too. And you mentioned three sort of
relationship strengthening tactics. The second one is we really have
to practice positivity, the reward and enjoyment of each other.
You know, we did an episode recently where Jinny interviewed
Chris and I and Chris is the editor of the show,
and him and I have been friends for I don't
(12:06):
know a long time, twenty five, twenty eight, thirty, I
don't know a lot of years, you know, yeah, wow,
thirty two, thirty three years something like that. Best friends
longer than I have been on this earth. Oh my goodness. Yes.
But we talked a little bit about how, for whatever reason,
when we first became friends, like we were so excited
about being friends, and we talked about how excited we
(12:29):
were to be friends, and we share, I mean, we've
just always shared this positivity, which I think is part
of what has contributed to making it such a close
friendship for so long.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
It's so nice to know and it's really a skill
I think to be able to do that with people.
For me, when I meet someone who's able to also
offer that vulnerability and say, you know, I had a
lot of fun hanging out with you tonight, I would
love to do that again. I know this is a
person I really want to spend time with, because I've
(13:00):
looked at friendships long enough to realize that's a really
special quality in somebody.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
You talk a lot about vulnerability. That was kind of
the first in these relationship strengthening tactics. You know, in
order to feel seen, we have to practice vulnerability, the
sharing of who we are. Is there a line for
you where vulnerability crosses into neediness. We've all had an
experience of somebody who is so desperate to be liked
(13:27):
that they're hard to like. Yeah, and there's a difference
between that and being vulnerable. And I'm just curious if
you have any thoughts on what that difference is or
how you navigate that.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
I can't give a one size fits all answer, but
what I would invite people to do is check in
with themselves about their intention behind sharing something and to say, like, Okay,
am I sharing about some really traumatic childhood experience? Super
early on with this person, so they feel bad for
(13:59):
me me or there's going to be honest with yourself
about what why are you sharing this thing? Because that's
something I've definitely done before of kind of oversharing and
then afterwards feeling embarrassed, I'm like, why did I say that?
Speaker 4 (14:14):
Why? Why did I say that to this person?
Speaker 1 (14:18):
And I think underneath it is just a really strong
desire to connect.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
But at the same time, by sharing too much too soon,
I'm kind of creating a power imbalance and I'm putting
too much on the other person in a way that
isn't fair.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Yeah, And it seems to me that if we think
about this, it's probably good to know your tendency and
to be aware of it and correct for it.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
So Yes.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
In the Spiritual Habits program, we talk about the middle way.
It's one of the core ideas and principles and it
basically says, look, any virtue, so to speak, is a
middle point between two vices. Right. Courage is a middle
point between b you know, rash and idiotic and a coward. Right. So,
knowing which of those sides do I have a tendency
(15:06):
to just sit back and be way too stoic when
I meet new people and not share and not be
vulnerable and not express that I'm excited to be friends
with them. If that's my tendency, maybe I want to
work on course correcting a little bit more towards the
vulnerable side. If, on the other hand, I have a
tendency of, you know, ten minutes after meeting somebody telling
them about you know, my deep dark abuse secrets and
(15:28):
saying I love you. I hope we spend every day
the rest of our lives together, right, I might want
to dial that tendency down in a bit. And so
it's useful to know, like what is my tendency and
to correct for it. But my experience with most adults
is that our tendency is to be much less vulnerable,
to not take a chance of deepening a conversation, of
(15:50):
deepening a relationship. That's been my experience of you know,
being an adult for thirty years now, almost as long
as you've been on the planet. I suppose you're by
to tell me again, I know from your writings you
believe in cultivating the voices of elders. So I'm glad
I can glad I can fill that role but my
experience with most adults is we're more on the whole
(16:11):
backside than we are on the vulnerable side totally.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
And I find there's a specific type of person who
is craving this more open, vulnerable friendship and who.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
Also has the capacity to foster that.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
And I find that when we meet each other, we're
so stoked. Yes, I heard someone recently say it's like
we're in the same graduating class. We understand each other's
kind of just way of being in the world. I
loved that way of phrasing it so much.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Yeah, And while I don't specifically coach people on creating
friendship in the way that you do, that has been
something that a number of my clients over the years
have said, you know, they would like more of it.
And we talk a lot about that basic idea of like,
it's some juncture somebody has to take quote unquote the
next step. In the same way in a dating situation,
(17:05):
somebody's got to sort of say, all right, I'm gonna
I'm gonna take a chance of seeing it. Where does
this go if I take the next step? I think
the same thing happens in friendship for sure, Where even
if that next step is just to drop one level
deeper in intimacy of conversation, to say, all right, we've
been hanging out here on the surface, I'm gonna take
the chance to go one level deeper. And I've shared
(17:27):
this on the show before. I used to do that
at work all the time. Like I mean, I just
in the beginning, after I got sober at twenty four,
I would just walk into a room and be like, hey,
I'm a I'm a heroin addict. You know, I got
sober six months ago. And you know, over time I
was like, all right, we need to dial that down
a little bit. But I always had that tendency of
I would just go a little bit deeper than most
people would. And I just found that over and over
(17:52):
that paid dividends for me in that it made me
much better at my work a because people trusted me
more and be I just made more friends that way,
more authentic friendships that way, by simply just being willing
to be a little bit more open about what mattered.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Yeah, because I imagine the people who are really uncomfortable with
you sharing those parts of yourself weren't comfortable with the
parts of themselves that were struggling, and those aren't people
that you want to be friends.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
With, That's right, Yeah, you're just like, well, I mean
I never really found it to be that damaging. I
mean maybe I had good enough self esteem that I
was just sort of like, well, not everybody has to
like me. Yeah, but yeah, I just I think that
is such an important pieces to sort of just recognize, like,
if I want this relationship, I've met somebody that seems
like I like them, how do we take it to
(18:38):
the next level? And I think your suggestions in the
book of being more Vulnerable practicing positivity. And then the
third one you talk about is consistency. Share a little
bit more about that.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Yeah, I think, especially if people live in a big city,
it can be difficult to find the time to see
someone consistently. This is a problem I will still run
up against of having so many people I really genuinely
love and want to spend time with, but then we
just don't have the time and energy to coordinate our
schedules and figure out the spot and do the whole thing,
and so to have these kind of central meeting places.
(19:11):
For example, it could be a dance party or a
house party, or a meditation class that you go to
or a yoga class, say Okay, I'm doing this thing
every week or every month, and I know if you
want to find me, I will be there, or if
I want to find you, you'll probably be there. And
it's a great way to just consistently see people be
(19:32):
around the types of people who value the same things
that you do, and also to start to deepen those
relationships a little bit.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
One of the things that I've noticed we may be
working with slightly different demographics potentially, as we've already sort
of laid out the age difference between us, right, is
that a lot of people that I work with say
they want more community, but their lives are very, very
full and they just tend to not make time time
(20:00):
for it. That's something that I found very interesting in
somebody who's trying to build a community, is that people say, yes,
I want that, Yes I want that, but then they
don't show up that often for it.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
Totally.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
A lot of the people that are sort of in
our communities are going to be people who are deep
in career and deep in family. So that's part of it.
But do you see that also where people say I
want friendships, I want community, but then they just simply
don't put the effort of the time in. They just
default to Netflix and hanging out totally.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
And I think it's especially that people don't want the
uncomfortable parts that come with community, which is there's going
to be conflicts, and there's going to be maybe some
people you don't like, or you're going to be jealous
of someone, or someone's going to mirror something in you
that feels awkward or uncomfortable, and it's so easy to
(20:53):
just be like, well, I guess I'm never going to
hang out with these people again, or I guess I
just won't communicate what's going on and then I feel
disconnected from these people, and then I kind of just
drift away, and I tell myself, oh, we just drifted apart,
But really I haven't been communicating the truth of my heart,
and I've been creating this distance myself.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
That was a lot.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
I had a lot of energy behind that, but it
really feels very annoying to me because I think so
many people share the struggle and just don't necessarily realize
that they don't have a tolerance for having any sort
of uncomfortable conversation.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
I am not a good group joiner. I think I'm
decent at fostering individual relationships, but I've never been a
group joiner. Particularly over the last five years, I've gotten
clearer that a lot of it is what you were
just saying. I'm looking for the perfect community. I'm looking
for the community where I like everyone. So if I'm
(22:17):
thinking of a Buddhist community or a spiritual community, I'm like, yeah,
those couple people see my right, But I don't like
those three people, so this isn't the place for me.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
Yeah, so I'm never coming here again.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Yeah, which is what I would do over and over
and over. And so I heard somebody say once and
use words a little bit. I don't remember exactly which ones,
but you alluded to it a little bit, which was
that part of the point of community is to rub
off our rough edges, that by interacting with these other people,
it smooths us out and allows us to integrate more
(22:47):
harmoniously into a group. And I thought once I heard that,
I went, oh, that makes a lot of sense. The
point here isn't that I like everybody and they're all
my best friends. The point is I'm interacting with a
variety of different people, and that there's benefit and beauty
in that totally.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
There's benefit in me being around people who I wouldn't
choose to be my friend, but the sheer nature of
our differences is actually good for us just to be
able to be in that.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
How do you work with people who are saying, yeah,
I want community, but aren't putting the effort in to
get it. It's very similar to somebody who says they
want to be in shape, but they're not putting the
effort to get into it. What sort of things have
you found helps on blocked?
Speaker 1 (23:27):
I think the biggest thing is to start by asking
questions around their fears. Say well, okay, there's clearly something
that's preventing you from doing this, because if you were
one hundred percent in, you wouldn't need anyone to help you,
you would just be doing it.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:40):
So a lot of times.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
I'll ask people what's been your experience with communities in
the past, and oftentimes something really awful will come up, like, oh,
I was part of this group and a girl in
the group like cheated on my boyfriend. You don't try
to say that my boyfriend cheated on me with this
person in the group. There was a terrible experience, or
I got bullied, or I didn't feel like I fit
(24:03):
in there, anything along those lines were Unconsciously, they're thinking, well,
I had a really bad experience in a community before,
so why would I want to put myself through that again?
But just don't take the time to reflect on it.
Because I think, even in the world of personal development,
where we reflect so much on all these elements of
ourselves constantly and rarely think about our relationship to group
(24:25):
and kind of in group, outgroup, what's my experience with community?
Because culturally we don't care about it very much, So
I would we think about it consciously?
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Yeah? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Before we
dive back into the conversation, let me ask you something.
What's one thing that has been holding you back lately?
You know that it's there, You've tried to push past it,
but somehow it keeps getting in the way. You're not
alone in this, and I've identified six major saboteurs of
(24:55):
self control, things like autopilot behavior, self doubt, emotionalless gapism
that quietly derail our best intentions. But here's the good news.
You can outsmart them. And I've put together a free
guide to help you spot these hidden obstacles and give
you simple, actionable strategies that you can use to regain control.
(25:16):
Download the free guide now at oneufeed dot net slash
ebook and take the first step towards getting back on track.
So if I am a person and I say, okay,
I'm lonely, I want to change that, where do I start?
You know, what are some things I can start doing?
Let's just say I'm like, well, I'll give you a
little bit more than that to go on. I work
(25:37):
from home. I have three or four other people that
you know, I interact within my company and I've known
them for a while and they're fine, but we're not
going to be great friends. I don't have a church
that I want to go to. I'm lonely, and I'm
not sure where to start. What are some initial steps
I can take? And you can tailor this answer two ways.
You can tailor it towards New York City, which is
(25:59):
or a big city which just where you are, and
you've created something called the joy List and lots of
great things. But we could also talk about people who
are in a place that's not quite so vibrant.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Yeah, I'll go a little more general, okay, And I
feel very excited about this question. The first question I
always ask people is what kind of person do you
want to be? Who do you want to be just
in life? And also how do you want to exist
within the place where you live? Could be New York City,
could be somewhere else. Because you might not want to
(26:30):
be a group person. You might say, you know, my
ideal vision for my friendships and my community is maybe
I'm kind of the hub for parties in my neighborhood.
I have dinner parties, people come to me, I have
an awesome backyard.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
I've got a core group of ten.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Friends, and we host stuff on a month. That might
be your vision for yourself, and that's awesome, like already
having just a vision.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
For what you want.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Yeah, and especially the qualities to say, I want to
be around people who care about spirituality. I want to
be the kind of person who's a generous host, I
want to care for my body. Even say, okay, what
types of people care about those things?
Speaker 4 (27:12):
Where can you meet those types of people?
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Because if you want to meet spiritual nerds who love
working out, just go into the bar every Friday night,
you're probably not going to meet those people, or if
you do meet those people, you don't know that you're
meeting those people because you're not in that context.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
Yep, let's run with this example. So let's say I
live in a mid size community somewhere in the US,
and I'm like, yeah, that is what I want. I
just moved to this new town. I'd like to have
a small group of friends. I do have a wonderful
backyard and I've got a great patio. I love to
cook dinner. I just love to have a group of
friends that gets together once or twice a month in
(27:50):
my backyard and we hang out and we have dinner
and we just have some nice conversation. Like that would
be amazing for me compared to where I'm at. Now,
what do I do if someone came to you with
that's what I want.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
So I have some friends.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
They are nomads and they're constantly traveling, but they're somehow
also always hosting things themselves, even in countries where they
don't really know people, and it's wild.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
And I ask them, how do you manage to pull
this off?
Speaker 1 (28:15):
And they'll say, Okay, well, I know three people in
this town and I tell them I want to host
a dinner party.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
Can each of you invite three people?
Speaker 1 (28:24):
And you could even say, can you invite three people
you know who might love spirituality if you want to
get a little more specific, suddenly you have a ten
person dinner party and then at the end of that say,
you know, I'm going to do this again next month,
same day next month.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
Would love if you guys could invite some people. I
want to make this.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
A monthly thing and even having the next date and
saying to people.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
I'd love for you to come again.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
I have two friends who do this every month and
they have an incredibly vibrant community that comes to them.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
It's a pretty sweet deal.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Yeah, So you take whoever you know and you use
those people to so of network out from there totally.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
And even if you want it to be as vulnerable
as saying I want to create a deeper community for
myself here, it'd be so helpful if you guys can
invite some folks Like that feel really good for me
because I find when people know why you're asking them something,
they're more likely to do it instead of you just
being like, oh, yeah, invite some friends if you want, Like,
there's a reason why you're asking them to do that.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Right, You're taking that step of being a little bit
vulnerable and asking for what you want.
Speaker 4 (29:28):
Because it's like, oh my god.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Who doesn't want to say like, oh yeah, let me
invite my three coolest friends so you can meet them.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
Yeah, this is great.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
So what if I'm not even in that place where
I know much of anybody in that town? So, yeah,
I moved here for my job. I'm a shy person.
I just don't really know anyone. Where do I start there?
Speaker 1 (29:47):
So something that I recommend that is very simple but
definitely not easy, is posting on social media if you
have it, or sending an email and saying, hey, I
just moved to wherever you live. I'm looking to meet
people who are interested in blah blah blah.
Speaker 4 (30:03):
Who do you know?
Speaker 1 (30:04):
And this is something that is so simple, but folks
love this kind of post on the internet because all
they have to do is tag somebody and they get
to feel great about themselves and it takes two seconds.
Speaker 4 (30:16):
And you might have three, five, ten people.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Who all of a sudden you can reach out to
and all you had to do is just let people
know that you're looking for.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
That that's a great idea. What about starting to attend
gatherings or volunteer events? All right, I'm willing to put
myself out there a little bit, Yeah, in order to
meet some new people. What does that look like? How
do I go about finding things? What do I do
when I get there? When I attend them? Again? If
you're in New York City, you get on Jillian's joy list?
Speaker 4 (30:46):
Yeah, you do.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
I see that joy list every time. I'm like, God,
I am jealous. That is so cool, so much great stuff.
There lots of weird stuff going on in New York
City totally. But what do I do if I don't
have that? Where are some places I can two that
are more broadly accessible ways to find gathering things that
I'm interested in, etc.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (31:06):
So first of all, I would start on meetup and
event right. On event right, there is a filter that
you can look for. There's different event categories, and there's
one called community. There's literally an event category called community.
So you can say, Okay, what are the community events
happening in my neighborhood this week? Or you could filter
for fitness events, you could filter for religious events.
Speaker 4 (31:29):
You can even filter by a keyword.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
You could look for a women's circle, for example, or
the word sober and just see what pops up, and
to then commit to yourself to say, Okay, I'm going
to go to this group at least twice, even if
the first time I don't like it very much, or
even if the first time I feel so nervous and
I don't talk to anyone and I feel really weird,
(31:52):
to go twice. And also you said the magic word before,
which is volunteer. I think, honestly, this is the biggest
for making friends in a new place, is to go
to an event that has the kinds of people that
you think you'd like. Like for example, in New York City,
there's this big meditation event called medi Club, And I
would volunteer at this event every month because the people
(32:15):
who volunteer are more likely to want to make new friends,
Like that's a big reason why people volunteer. But also
it gives you direct access to the organizers of the event.
And the organizers of events are usually community hubs who
are more than happy to introduce you to whoever you want.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
So find events and if you can volunte tier at them.
And I think the other thing you said, there's really
important is to go at least twice, you know, if
not more right. I've started recently doing this thing in
Columbus I love doing so volunteers called Food Rescue, and
it's basically there's an organization. They're all around the country,
but they basically find food that's going to be thrown
(33:18):
away somewhere, whether it's from a restaurant, a grocery store, whatever,
and then they match that up with a place that
needs it, and you basically go get it from one place,
take it to another. But they've had this thing where
they distribute these like thousands of boxes of produce every Friday,
and so I was like, all right, I'm going to
start going. And I am not actually very good at
(33:38):
PLoP me in a new environment with a bunch of
people I don't know. I don't do well in that environment.
I am sort of shy, I'm sort of quiet, I'm
sort of withdrawn. And it's interesting. It's not even that
I notice that I'm shy and withdrawing. That's part of it.
But what's interesting is my defense mechanisms kicking enough that
I don't even feel like I want to get to
(33:59):
know anybody in that environment. It's so interesting. It's like,
if you ask me on Wednesday night, when I'm going
to this thing on Friday, would you like to meet
some new people there, I'm like, of course I would.
That would be great. Put me there Friday. And all
of a sudden, I'm like, my phone is really interesting
to me right now.
Speaker 4 (34:13):
You're like, look at my shoes is not like really
cool shoes.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
Man, Maybe I should just sit in the car and
listen to this book on tape. It's so interesting to
me the way that happens. My defense mechanisms rise up
so quickly, I don't even see them, and then they're like,
you don't really, who cares? You don't need to make
any hands. So interesting. Anyway, I've been going to this
thing on Fridays, and I mean, I think it took
like five times before I started actually getting into conversation
(34:38):
with people like I was there, we were friendly, Hey,
how you doing good? Let's load these boxes. Like But
after about the fifth time, something in me just shifted
and I naturally started to just sort of emerge from
my shell a little bit. And so I just know
that about me that it takes me a little while.
And so I know if I'm going to embed myself
in something like that, I'm going to have to go
(35:00):
ultiple times. But I imagine there are things that I
could do if I wanted to accelerate that process. What
might be some ways of getting into the conversational flow
or meeting somebody, or again just going from sort of
standing there to engaging a little bit more.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Well, I think you are definitely not alone, or I
know you're not alone in your experience of going to
an event that's not facilitated and not being sure how.
Speaker 4 (35:25):
To go deeper with people.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Yeah, because you don't know the norms of the space,
you don't know what's acceptable there, you don't really know
who these people are. It's like going to a giant
happy hour that's a networking event where no one tells
you what to do, and you're just like, yes, we're
supposed to connect with each other.
Speaker 4 (35:41):
What the hell is this? Like this is.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Awful, which is why And I'm such an extroverted person,
but I hate things like that with a passion because
it's such a draining environment for me to be in
where there is no understanding of what you're supposed.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
To do in the space.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
You're kind of just thrown into this giant room of
people talking over each other. So the biggest thing I
would say is that if you can find an event
that has facilitation, try that. So, for example, in New
York City, and this is a very New York City thing,
but there's this thing called Vulnerable af that this woman
named Veronica runs. It's like a great name, and now
(36:18):
she goes on tour and she does it and it's
so great. But it's essentially just facilitated conversations where she's
giving you prompts to say to strangers, and there's some
group exercises, and there's no way you're not going to
leave that event without having had a deeper conversation with someone.
And the people who show up at that event are
obviously looking to have deeper conversations with new people, so
(36:41):
you're kind of already all in the same space.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
That's a great event. I think it's really good advice
go to something that is sort of facilitated. It's one
of the reasons why I've always been grateful to have
been a member of AA. Yeah, I'm not real involved now,
but I'm like, if I move to a new city, like,
how easy is it I just start going to meeting.
The meetian have conversations that are already structured. You get
to hear a bunch of people talk and be like,
(37:04):
I like what that guy had to say. I like
what she had to say. Okay, those are kind of
people I got my eye on. It makes it happen
so much easier than what you described, which is like
this food rescue situation where I show up. And again, now,
this organization is not designed to help people meet each other.
It's designed to get food to the places it needs
to go. So if my food rescue friends are listening
(37:26):
that none of this is criticism, right, Like, it's not
what it's about. But you describe this sort of event
that a lot of us show up to, we go,
all right, I'm going to volunteer somewhere. And I think
you make a really good point that where we're volunteering
puts this in proximity to the people. But there are
no real rules for interaction and there's no guided interaction.
(37:47):
It kind of falls all on your own moxie. And again,
what I've learned about me is that my moxie will
grow over time. You know, there's just something that naturally
thaws in me. If I'm around the same people enough times.
But I love that idea of going to things that
are facilitated as a way of that naturally happening. In
our Spiritual Habits group program, I think we break the
(38:09):
big group up into small groups that meet every week,
and there's been a lot of really great deep relationships
formed there, and I think to a large extent, it's
what we train the facilitators. But secondly, it's there is
a facilitated conversation about things that matter to you right away,
so immediately there is a way to engage and make
deeper connection because it is, as you said, a sort
(38:32):
of facilitated event. Questions are asked, there's conversation, it happens.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Yeah, I think this is why these question card games
have suddenly blown up in popularity. Like everyone under the
sun has a set of question cards that they're selling.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
I don't, because I think I need some make.
Speaker 4 (38:49):
Some question cards.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
Esther Parell just came out with a game based off
of her podcast that's entirely questions that increase in vulnerability,
and they're all questions about out storytelling so that you
tell a story. You should have her on your podcast.
She's promoting this.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
New game right now.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
But I've had a few friends say that at their
dinner parties they've actually played her game. Interesting, And it's
so great because I find that when we're around the
same people a lot, we lose curiosity about them, like
they kind of just become something that they're just there.
You're like, oh, yeah, this is my friend I've known
since I was five. What else is there for me
(39:27):
to know about this person? And then you ask them
a question like, oh, what's one of your favorite memories
of being with your grandmom?
Speaker 4 (39:33):
Like when have you ever talked about that with them before?
Probably never, never, And so you're going to get this
whole new thing.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
I've been friends with Chris, as I said, for a
really long time, I couldn't tell you the first thing
about his grandparents.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Yeah, I find grandparents is a really interesting thing because
most adults that would never come up in conversation. But
there's so much you can learn about someone's family and
their culture from talking about that.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
With Chris, It's probably going to end up being a
conversation about like drunk uncles or something than if if
I know anything about that family. But yeah, same, my family.
Speaker 4 (40:05):
Too, not me that's a family culture for sure.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
Total family culture. I have an uncle who died from alcoholism,
So I am just in it myself before we maybe
change directions a little bit for the last few minutes.
What else about making friendship creating community? What else should
people know or what are some really important things from
your coaching practice that you would share with people?
Speaker 1 (40:27):
I think the biggest thing is to really be kind
to yourself in this process. Folks can be so brutal
to themselves and so judgmental just being like, man, it's
pathetic that I don't have friends, Like what kind of
loser doesn't know how to make friends?
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Like?
Speaker 4 (40:44):
These mean vicious.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Things people will say to themselves when in reality, the
average American hasn't made a new friend in five years.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
And seventy five percent of Americans are not satisfied with
their friendships. So more likely than not, any person you
meet is looking for new friends and is looking for
deeper connection. And the people who have really rich friend
groups are in the vast minority. Yes, and that's so
(41:13):
important for people to keep in mind.
Speaker 3 (41:15):
Yeah, that's a really good point. And you say early
on in your book that loneliness is systematic it's not
an individual problem. It's systematic.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
Right.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
So to your point, if we don't have as rich
a friendship or community life as we want, we are,
like you said, we are far from alone. Matter of fact,
we are in the majority, and the way our society
is set up makes it harder and harder to do
that and have that. And so it's not an individual failing.
Speaker 4 (41:41):
Totally, not an individual failing at all.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
I think the second thing there is kind of what
I just did a little bit not to be like, oh,
look how great I am. But if you'll know, hey,
I'm great now. But when I talked about going to
this food rescue thing right like fifteen years ago, I'd
have been really hard on myself, like why are you
not talking too, You're not meeting people? What's wrong with you?
And now I'm just a lot more kind with myself
(42:05):
and I go, I know my process. Yeah, it takes
me a few times, so okay, yeah that's the way
I am. So I know I just need to go
a few more times I'll get there. Instead of being
like walking in the first time and being like if
I don't walk out of here with three friends, I've failed. Yeah,
And I think that's how a lot of us orient
towards this. I want more friends, I'm going to go
to this event, I walk out. I don't have any friends.
(42:26):
I failed, and so I'm not gonna do it again,
because who wants to keep failing totally?
Speaker 1 (42:30):
And how many people have that mindset in all sorts
of things like yes, a job interview or going on dates?
Be like, well, this one was bad. Confirms what I
already thought. So I'm just not going to do this again.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
Yep, that's a really good point. You had some funny
things I saw on social recently. You know, I think
you're dating, and you and your friends were riffing on
reasons that somebody might not be getting back to you,
the different reasons. And I was laughing because because the
interpretation is they're not getting back to me because they
don't like me, and you're like, well, yeah, they might
be awful, tripping on LSD, they might be high af
(43:04):
you know, they might. I thought it was funny, Yeah,
just riffing or like, here's all the different reasons.
Speaker 4 (43:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
I was talking to a female friend because we're both dating,
and how funny it is that if like we're at
a party and someone's being kind of weird with us,
or they're not responding to our text. Our assumption is, well,
they think I'm gross and bad and I'm just awful,
and that's why they're not asking me out or whatever.
Speaker 4 (43:26):
And then we started.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Talking about actual reasons when we've misinterpreted what was going on.
And she told the funniest story of how this guy
was sending her text that didn't make sense and she
thought he was trying to avoid going on a date
with her, when in reality he.
Speaker 4 (43:42):
Was just tripping super hard. You know, it's like the
best story.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
That's a greeting, like keep your phone off.
Speaker 4 (43:54):
Might not be making Maybe they're drunk or maybe they're high.
I don't know. Thank you for supporting my internet life.
It feels good.
Speaker 3 (44:02):
You know, you're in the middle of the psychedelic renaissance
when you have to be like, well, we're no longer
talking about drunk dialing, we're talking about tripping texting. Don't
do it. I want to shift directions for a second
and talk about something that you have done. One program
you did was called Allied, although you've done several others.
Allied was a seven week training for white leaders to
(44:23):
skillfully engage in conversations about race. And we've had a
bunch of conversations around race on this show. We're primarily
a white audience. I'd love to know some of what
you've learned through those various trainings you've done. I know
I'm asking you a huge topic with you know, like
four minutes left in the conversation. So, but any things
(44:44):
that really stood out to you that gave you like
okay as a as a white person. If I want
to be a better ally, here are some of the
things I'm going to do.
Speaker 4 (44:52):
Yeah, I can quickly say. So.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
Allied was led by this teacher named Harry Pickens, who
is a black man who wanted to work with white leaders.
And the biggest thing I got from that was how
can we train our nervous systems to be okay in
conversations where we are not comfortable, especially with people who.
Speaker 4 (45:11):
Do not agree with us.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
And a case study we were looking at a lot
is Darryl Davis, who is a black man who famously
befriended members of the klu Klux Plan and then actually
got them to leave because he was in relationship with them.
And the process took a very long time and of course,
that's not an approach that a lot of people agree with,
(45:33):
but it's one that is really interesting in that that's
the ultimate example of being comfortable across.
Speaker 4 (45:41):
Lines of difference and being with people who might not
like you at all.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
And so I have really tried, and of course as
I'm saying this, I'm judging myself for not doing better,
but to be with folks who are white conservatives, for example,
to talk about their beliefs, or to be comfortable, because
I can really fall into people pleasing to be comfortable
enough to challenge people and just to say just having
(46:09):
these sentence stems in my back pocket, like oh why
do you think that? Or oh has that been your experience,
and to just give people the space to kind of
talk out this thing they might think of without questioning it.
Speaker 4 (46:26):
So that's one thing. And the second thing I'll.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
Quickly say is that I did this training called Bridges
and Boundaries, which was three days primarily white folks, but
there are also some black folks in the room, and
it was a very intense, super in your face training
about looking at your own racism. And really the main
point that I got from that was that white people
(46:50):
are racist and we do think that we're better than
other races, and we have to acknowledge that in ourselves
in order to move forwards and to just and I
feel hot and saying that out loud, but to be like,
I think I'm better, I have to tell myself that
I've been so programmed my entire life, and our country's
been programmed to think that I'm better. And people of
(47:12):
color know that we think that, and if we can't
say that to ourselves, we can't do any work.
Speaker 4 (47:20):
I mean, that weekend kicked me in the face. It
was not fun.
Speaker 3 (47:24):
I bet you know. It makes me think my initial
like instantly that uncomfortableness raises a defense in me where
I want to go. But people of other raceists think
they're better then that there's an in group out group thing, right.
But the difference, of course, is that our race is
controlling everything and is in charge of everything.
Speaker 4 (47:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (47:43):
We interviewed Ibermex Kendy on the show, and one of
the things that he talked about that I found so
valuable was to move away from saying I am or
I am not a racist, or you are or you
are not a racist, and to say I have some
racist thoughts I have some racist beliefs. I did a
(48:05):
racist thing. And I found that a really interesting switch
because it's a little bit like the difference between shame
I am bad, I am a racist, to I do
think racist things. Oh, I have behaviors, actions, etc. That
are that way, and thusly I can work on changing them.
(48:28):
For me, that was a way of sort of being
able to walk into the ground you're talking about and go, yes,
I do I have racist thoughts. I think things that
are racist, I have done things that are racist thoughts
that run through my head. Was really helpful because then
I was able to sort of again step out of
the shame of I'm this awful person to I have
these behaviors, right, which is sort of the difference between
(48:51):
I think healthy guilt and shame shame as I'm bad.
Healthy guilt is I'm doing things that don't match my values.
I want to change.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
Yeah, And I think this training that was so impactful
of having it be a mixed race group was to realize, Okay,
it's so uncomfortable for me to look at these racist
parts of myself, and if I don't, I'm going to
keep unintentionally hurting these other people in the room. Yeah,
(49:18):
so which one am I going to choose?
Speaker 4 (49:20):
Because we're being forced to choose, like look at ourselves
and say, Okay, if I don't examine this.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
Stuff, which I have the full power to never examine
and never look at and never think about because it's
deeply uncomfortable, I will, for the rest of my life
hurt people more. And of course I'm still going to
do racist stuff for the rest of my life because
it's just I'm a human, but I'll probably do it
a little bit more, or at least I'll be able
to apologize.
Speaker 4 (49:45):
More skillfully in the future if I look at.
Speaker 3 (49:46):
This stuff that's really powerful and really difficult work. Before
we wrap up, I want you to think about this.
Have you ever ended the day feeling like your choices
didn't quite match the person you wanted to be. Maybe
it was autopilot mode or self doubt that made it
harder to stick to your goals. And that's exactly why
(50:07):
I created The Six Saboteurs of Self Control. It's a
free guide to help you recognize the hidden patterns that
hold you back and give you simple, effective strategies to
break through them. If you're ready to take back control
and start making lasting changes. Download your copy now at
oneufeed dot net slash ebook. Let's make those shifts happen
(50:30):
starting today one you feed dot net slash ebook. We're
at the end of our time. You and I are
going to go into the post show conversation, and I
actually want to explore something you said a few minutes
ago in more detail. You talked about challenging people or
having open conversation with people who think different things than us,
particularly maybe around a topic like race. As we head
(50:51):
into the holidays, many people are going about to get
some great opportunities for this, and so let's talk about
some skills because I do. There's a difference between turn
my Thanksgiving dinner table into a nuclear war versus actually
engage in dialogue with people who think differently than me
in a hope of increasing understanding. So we'll talk about
(51:14):
that in the post show conversation. Listeners, if you'd like
access to the post show conversation, you can go to
one you feed dot net slash Join you get this
post show conversation, You'll get ad free episodes. You'll get
a special episode I do every week called Teaching Song
and a poem where I share a song I love,
a poem I love, as well as a teaching and
(51:34):
lots of other great benefits of being a member when
you feed dot net slash join Jillian. Thank you so
much for coming on. I have really really enjoyed this
and it's been a pleasure to get to talk with
you for everyone.
Speaker 4 (51:45):
Thank you for having me. I feel super energized.
Speaker 3 (52:03):
Thank you so much for listening to the show. If
you found this conversation helpful, inspiring, or thought provoking, I'd
love for you to share it with a friend. Sharing
from one person to another is the lifeblood of what
we do. We don't have a big budget, and I'm
certainly not a celebrity, but we have something even better,
and that's you. Just hit the share button on your
(52:24):
podcast app or send a quick text with the episode
link to someone who might enjoy it. Your support means
the world, and together we can spread wisdom one episode
at a time. Thank you for being part of the
one you Feed community.
Host
Eric Zimmer
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