August 9, 2021 • 30 mins
Gary and fellow South African PGA Pro Charl Schwartzel discuss winning at the Masters, the state of South African golf and its current stars, and Charl discusses how he learns from watching videos of Gary and his rivals from the past.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
M Well, first of all, I like to welcome you
Shall to the Player series. It's so nice to have
you a child, I've known you since you were we
lad and always amile. The way you play, and the
first question I'd really like to ask you. You know,
one of the things that fascinated me about your career.
(00:23):
You joined the Turn to eleven and please forgive me
if I'm not correct, and yet you won the Masters
that same year. I mean that was really quite unbelievable.
I wasn't surprised because you know, I know how well
you hit the ball and how well you play, but
that was quite a thing. And you know, tell us
(00:43):
a little bit how you felt, you know, just joining
the tour and winning the Masters. Yeah, I mean I think, um,
you know, there was a lot more build up to that,
you know, so you know, actually physically joining at two
and two thousand and eleven, that was my East year.
But um, you know, with South Africa and the Sunshine
(01:05):
Tour in European Tour, grooming us before we get I
think it's played a big part, you know. Two thousand
and two was my December two thousand and two was
my very first European tournament. I was eighteen years old,
and you know we are we we plaid our school
fees going through SAfrica and Europe for many years. And
(01:26):
I used to come to America. I think my first
tournament wasn't two thousand and seven Millfield, um, and I
used to come and play the world events and the
majors on and all. And then in two thousand and ten,
I finished second to Ernie and Durral and I finished
third in Houston and that actually got me enough money
(01:47):
and points to have a full card on the on
the US two and for two thousand and eleven. And
you know, so it wasn't a strange thing for me
to be in America, but that was just the first
time that I actually had my full privileges. And you know,
two thousand and ten was my first Master finished three
(02:07):
year and it's a it's a golf course that the
first time I played it, I felt very comfortable on.
So you know, come eleven, I just came off a
win in South Africa, and I feed it off their
confidence in it. Um. It's one thing that I I
tell people, you know, they laugh at the smaller tournaments,
(02:28):
but I say that I don't care if I win
the smallest tournament. It's it still takes almost the same
amount of effort and concentration and determination then it does
to do to make a big tournament. And you know,
I've fed a lot of my job ag Open win
to win Augusta. That's right, and child, you know what
(02:49):
really fascinates me share there's so many people say, well,
you know, they pooh poo those tournaments outside of America,
that they've suddenly realized how what it is to when
I don't care what tournament it is, whether it's the
Hong Kong Open that all the Asian players and overseas
players here, you have to score lights out. It's been
(03:10):
like that ever since I was a young boy. You
have to really play extremely well, and to win is
another story. But what's fascinating coming up now with the
Masters this year, with Musa Yama winning, which was so
good for golf, they will probably make him the new
president or Prime Minister of Jamand I said him, listen,
(03:32):
if you are, please make sure Charlotte and I don't
need a visa to go there. So he said he
will arrange that. But the other thing that I wanted
to ask you was, you know when you won. It
was you were four strokes behind, if I remember correctly.
You had people like and Rory and Jason Day just
to mention a few, but you were so focused and
(03:55):
you were feeling so confident. And then the way you
ended the tourment with I was sitting in front of
the TV. They're jumping sky high where you were getting
those birdies at the end. What a finish. Yeah, you know,
it's something about that week. I was never I've never
felt under a lot of pressure. Um. I felt a
(04:19):
sense of calmness for majority of the week, and I
kept doing my own thing and I start to ah
my routine and my um you know, I kept the
same pace and everything felt really just in sync. Um.
I was fallback. And for some reason that morning, that
(04:41):
Sunday morning, I woke up and I said to my wife,
I said, I'm gonna win, I said, and I said
it with calmness. It wasn't like I said it to
put pressure on myself. I just I felt this just
sense of almost knowing. It might sound arrogant, but that's
just how it felt. And I was very happy with
my game progressed because from the week before in Houston,
(05:03):
I started on working on something just to hit like
this sort of fade, small fade under pressure at three
quarter fade shot And and as that we got on.
I did it every day and it got better and
better and better, and by Sunday I felt almost bulletproof.
And you know, I obviously a good T shirt down
(05:25):
the first hole, but they needed four second shot and
and like Gary will be able to recall that on
that side to those flags. You can stand there all day.
You know, you can go back this right, this right,
that's the better shot in your second shot. Hold, that's
a better chip in, then your second shot holding it
(05:45):
out from the fairway on the third yeah, exactly, yeah,
because the third hold it feeds to the whole, you know,
you eat it up the middle and the green and
it sort of spins towards all. And they managed to
go in. But that that chip shot on one was
just uh. I've refused to go back then chip it
again because I know I'll just mess it up. When
(06:06):
you were chipping, when you were chipping there, I said,
I'll give him twenty shots. He won't get this stuff
and down. And well I was right, you got it
up and down. What av uh um you know, and
then Rory just didn't get off to a good study
but get the first and by time I held my
second shot on three, we were all square. All the
(06:28):
lead was gone, and I I just felt, um, I
felt like, you know, you've got as good as chance
as anybody out there. That that's goloes to the lead.
And Tiger obviously got up to unbelievable start. He was
like five through eight holes and he was up on
the board and at the back nine I think the
lead changed and seven times, so eight times the lead
(06:52):
on that back nine, and I kept playing really well.
I just didn't do anything spectacular from that whole. My
only three part for the week came on the fourth
or eight at front left, the pin was back right.
There was a hundred foot part, and three parted on Sunday.
Other than that, I kept hitting really good shots, giving
(07:12):
myself a lot of opportunities, didn't make any um. And
then you know, standing on the fifteenth tea box, I
said to Greg McCarry, I said, Greg, we're gonna win this.
This is the keyhole. I said, fifteen. If you do
not birdie fifteen in this situation, you you're probably not
(07:32):
going to do it. And I hit driver six on
and just I went over the back, and I think
that's probably the you know, out of the four birdies
that six ft made there was to me the the
most important one, and it was probably the easiest part
of them all. Was an inside right up the hill
six ft. But at the time it felt hard because
(07:54):
I knew I had to make it. Um. Yeah, and
then I kept hitting good. You know if the four birdies,
you know, at the time, you just so in in
the zone and you you're just trying to hit the
best shot on every shot. And you know, sixteen I
(08:14):
had a great shot to both fit fed down to
you know, about fifteen ft below um, and I'll never
forget the crowd how loud it is down there when
the part went in on sixteen and um and then
seventeen to me was finally the shot that I've been
(08:34):
practicing for so long, that little three quarter shot, because
I hit it just off the on the right side
of the fairway and the trees were slightly overhanging and
I needed to I could get a pitch in which there,
but the trees were in the way. So I needed
to hit that three quarter fade shot with a nine nine,
and I just felt like that's what I was practicing for,
(08:54):
and I hit a beautiful shot to eight foot. You know,
it's just if you think, if I think back in it,
how these things happen? You know, you you can't h
you know, you've got to practice sort of with I
don't know, with faith of something happening. You know, you
can't concert is going to happen. But at that time,
(09:16):
if I look back for how long I practice that
specific shot and that's shot on seventeen is not as
easy as people think it is. You know, coming up
that first cut, the ball normally comes with overspin, and
if I headed over the green, my tournament's gone. You know,
I don't think you up and down from over the green,
not to that back flag. Um, And I hit it
to eight foot and made that paton well, I M yeah.
(09:40):
I mean hit the driver as lord as I can.
I was nervous there was the right shot to do
for you at that stage. I mean Greg Norman came
there one year and was driving the ball. He was
a marvelous driver of a golf ball, the strongest part
of his game. And he gets to the eighteens and
he takes out an iron, if I'm not mistaken, leaves
(10:04):
himself a long way back. Had he hit his driver,
he would have been then bogey the hole, missing the
green to the right to be taken his driver, he
would have been right up there with a wedge and
maybe even birdie the hole in one. One of the
things that the media and the public never ever seemed
to digest, would you fall back? I mean, I won
three torments in a row, starting at augusta seven behind
(10:26):
all three weeks. Weren't you six back on the back nine? Pardon?
Weren't you six pack playing the back nine? I shot yes,
shot thirty, and then the next week got seven behind
Ballesteros at the Torment of Champions and shot sixty five
and a wound'ty rainy day. In the next week I
was six behind Andy Bean and shot sixty f one there.
(10:49):
But my point is that people must understand it doesn't
matter how many shots you behind, because when you've got
to lead, the hardest thing to do in golf is
to may retain that lead. People to have no idea.
The whole eventually looks the size of a Bayer restaurant.
You know, it's not easy to play with that kind
of pressure. So I think people are beginning to realize
(11:12):
that now as we saw UH with you know, we
watched the US Open this year, and you see how
scores fluctuate all the time. It's always been like that
in history Art Wall when the master's six shots behind.
We've seen a lot of very interesting things to go.
But I'm sure you'll agree. If there's a golf course
in Heaven, we'd like it to be like August. We're
(11:33):
not in a hurry to tee off. But I hope
I'm the head pro there to prepare things for you
when you arlive there. But what I wanted to ask you,
what are you working on? You're not playing in the
Open Championship this year? This this this year? No, I'm not,
you know I was. I've been injured, injured on and
off for two years and UH world ranking went to
(11:55):
town and fifty and I started playing injury free this
year and I'm working my way back. I'm in the
top hundred now and feeling like my game is probably
better than it's ever been. Um. But you know, just
with COVID and stuff that the qualifying criterias have been
a little different, so I didn't qualify. So I'm going
(12:15):
to play this week in in Kentucky and I'll play
the following week at the three M. But you know,
to be honest, my since it's it's amazing the body.
If if there's any any small problem that doesn't have
to be something big, how it affects the way you
(12:36):
you swing the club and you your body reacts. And
now that I don't have any pain, I've been working
with my dad and David lead better. I'm getting a
swing in the positions that I used to play and then, um,
it's become sick of nature again. And I think it's
because I'm a little stronger now than I used to.
It's better. It's it's much more control than um, you know.
(13:01):
And what I've realized is that now that i'm driving
it better and and an iron place good, my my
wedge game has been weak. So you ask me what
I'm working on is is from twenty yards and to
sixty is being very obvious of driving and good and
long and I've got a lot of these and I
don't score. So that's that's what I've been working on.
(13:24):
And it's getting a lot better and um, you know,
and putting is always a thing that you'll work on for. Yeah.
In fact, I was actually watching last week. I was
watching something about but you when you were playing. You know.
The sad thing for me is I never saw you
playing your prime, So I got to go back to
all these videos and watch you play. And I remember
(13:47):
playing with you about a month. See, I don't know
two months ago. We played at Seminal and it was
very obvious how still you kept when you when you
parted still told today and then back in your videos
back you know what I was on YouTube, Um, probably
in the eighties and the seventies to two parts to
win tournaments. You didn't even look up, head stay down
(14:13):
and the ball went in, and then you looked up
and you almost like the crowd almost told you that
the puts in. And it's sort of stuck with me. Um,
you know, just as a golf lover and looking at
guys h people that are do different things how you
used to do it in the prime, And and and that's hard.
(14:33):
People don't realize how difficult it is to stay still
because you're head. We're all so curious, that's right. And
you look at Tiger, watch how his head, how still
his head was his head was so so still, and
so was Nick Felder. You know, it makes a massive
difference if and it's a good exercise for patients, and
(14:57):
that's what you need. And you're talking about a calmness.
You've got to believe you're going to make the put,
but you've got to also execute and have the right action.
And if you move, you've got no chance. You watch
people that got the hips. They're jumping all over the place.
They can't keep still. And it's terribly, terribly important. But
I think the word that patients, and it comes back
(15:18):
to the old story. You know, you look at the
shambro he's hitting the ball these prodigious distances, but when
he wins, he puts extremely well. And what wins golf tournaments,
there's no question. What wins golf tournaments is the mind.
This is something that you can never explain. Certain players
have got it. I can't tell you what it is.
I know that Weiskoff was a better player than Jack
(15:41):
Nicholas and he won one major Nicholas one eighteen. So
there's a lot more just than the swing. It's the
makeup of the person. It's the mind. And now I'm
going to and it's being a great putter, because if
you put well, you go into the next tea you
feel like Tarzan. If your three put you feel like
Mickey Mouse. That I'm not so I think the pudding,
(16:03):
like you said, but it comes to from the mind.
So the pudding is the place, the last place that
it shows up when a guy is in doubt. And
the videos I was watching of you, and I was
watching Jack and every or I was just went through
all the older generation guys that I never saw play.
You can see it in the guy's eyes. It was
(16:24):
the same as Tiger when he was playing now obviously
in his primary you can see it in the eyes.
That is the focus and the determination. And I you know,
just from the stuff that I saw with you that um,
every single time you want or played well, you can
(16:44):
see there was almost no other option than succeeding. And
I can relate to that. And for me, I feel
guilty because I don't do it and I don't get
in myself in that situation. Enough I done it myself.
But when every time I've won and I put myself
in a position, it was the mindset of I will
(17:07):
succeed in that that's sort of mindset made him so
determined and fearly failure wasn't an option exactly. You know,
charl I was called a nut when I spoke about
weight training all my life. And now you see the
(17:29):
guy's lifting weights. And I played with this guy called
Taysom Hill who plays for the Saints the other day.
I played at him in in Salt Lake City. Well
he's he's squatting with five hundred pounds. He's lifting these weights,
and you should see when he hit the ball too.
I mean, it is hard to believe that a man
could hit the ball that far with a beautiful flowing swing.
(17:51):
So I was criticized and condemned for lifting weights. And
then I said, somebody of fifty will win the Masters
or a major championship one day. Pul Micholson has done it.
I'm now going to say one day there'll be a
man of sixty when a major championship. I was criticized
when I said they'll be hitting the ball four hundred yards. Well,
if you get a guy like uh, the big basketball
(18:15):
player what's his name, Lebron James, if he come out
and play, he might hit the ball five Andre Jarge.
So we're in our infancy yet in this game to come.
But if you look at something very significant and and
and you know, tens of millions of people saw this,
but I don't know how many digestive full Micholson comes
out and he wins the p GA. He must have
(18:37):
lost I don't know, between twenty and forty pounds. His
face looked young, and then he was really focused. You
could see him how focused he was. And then you
watched the Wimbledon, which I watched every single shot shot
being in quarantine with Djokovic. Now here's a man that
has done what very very few athletes have done, which
(19:00):
I've been saying for years, exercise and diet. And here's
a man now who was exercising. Look at his body,
not one pound of fat on his body. And secondly,
the man eats differently to any other athlete that I
know of most other athletes, and there it is under pressure,
(19:21):
he was getting more energy. So eating and keeping your
weight down and exercising is also going to be a
massive thing in the future. Yeah, and I agree with you.
I am I've been fortunate also just to have exercise,
(19:41):
you know, since I've started playing the game, and I
can honestly say for sure, when I do my exercises,
I feel better, I move better, more energy, you know.
You Yeah, And I'm a big believer in you know, guys,
there's a lot of guys at you and I might
(20:02):
be scrutinized for us, but um, people that you've got
to do specific things for golf, Yes, you do, but
I don't believe it. Just do something, yeah, yeah, anything,
you know, if you do, because it gets some people
despondent because some of the exercises are really hard to do.
And you know, I'm the type of guy like if
(20:26):
I just even if I get up now and go
do five minutes and stuff, you do anything, it's better
than nothing. You know, it definitely makes you feel better. Yeah,
And there's no question. But it's very interesting to you
with David. David I think is a very good teacher. Now,
I love his idea of teaching. He's very very good.
So I think you're on the right line. And now
(20:48):
to go out, And I was just like to say,
you know, it, isn't it oneful to see South Africa,
a small country relatively doing so extremely well with all
our players and to see gay come along and win
that tournament amazing and went two tourments in England and
I spent a lot of time with him trying to
(21:08):
help him mentally. And he's a very good listener. You
know a lot of young people today are not very
good listeners. They think they know it all. When I
was around Hogan and Sneed and people like that, man,
I kept my ears open, although Massa was very despondent.
One year I played with Sam Snead at Greenbrier and
I tired with him in the tournament and I played
(21:30):
the last thirty six holes with him. We went in
a sudden death playoff and he beat me on the
forty three hole excuse me, the seventh hold mint. I
played forty three holes of him and I was a
young boy of twenty one, and I turned around and
I said, Mr Snead, is there anything you can do
to help me with my swing? He turned around said,
I ain't seen you swing yet. Son. A different time
(21:56):
live in you know, but you know, it's very It's
great to see the South Everything guys doing so well,
and it be let's hope another one could follow your
footsteps and within another major for South Africa. I think
they're very sure yeah, that's gonna happen, yeah, I said, sincerely, Hope.
(22:19):
So yeah, yeah for me. I before Garrick one, um
the tournament, Uh yeah, yeah, I don't in Georgia. He uh.
I said that he impressed me the most. He's the
way he's demeanor, the way he plays the game, and
exactly what Gary was saying. We played practice round with
(22:41):
him at the p g A and he was one
of the few guys that would come up and ask advice.
And you know, I was but with all the Swales
that I was doing this trip, my own shots and
they were all bouncing it into the bank and I said, yeah,
I said, I prefer, you know, using like a four
wine to run it up. And um. He was just
(23:02):
very open to advice and listening and then obviously taking
that and doing his thing. And I feel that's the
if you're able to do that, that's a recipe for success.
And he won a few weeks later. So my my
money will be on Garrick being the next guy too,
you know, new guy too. When you know that Louis
(23:23):
Louie is playing great golf, he seems to thrive in
the major he really does. He plays well. I felt
so sorry for him that he was open because he
he was close, you know, that's the way he was leading.
And I spoke to him a few times after that,
and it hurts. You know. John Ron made two fantastic
butts in seventeen and eighteen. Then he got pumped. Um Louis, Louis,
(23:47):
Louis will be Louis will always be a contender. UM's
doing well. But I think for you guys, kind of Garrick.
Garrick gets the ball a long way. He's he's sort
of up with the modern game. You know, I hated,
I hated still a good distance. I had a further
than I used to. But Garrett comes up and it's
as passed me, you know, and doesn't look like he's
hitting it. It's a strong boys. I like. I like
(24:10):
his game, and you know, there's nothing better. And that's
why when I was around Hogan or Snead or any
of those, those really superstars. And I don't use the
word superstar lightly. I think to be classified as a superstar,
you've gotta win six majors. You talk about superstar, not
a star. And I listened, and I listened to. I
always asked those guys something and Hogan gave me some
(24:33):
great tips which helped me to win all those eighteen
majors on both tours. So what you do is when
you do advice from somebody with experience, you say years
years of trial and error that you can get immediately.
There's no better way than to get success immediately than
to use experience. And yet so many people and young guys,
(24:55):
And what fascinates me is so many of these young
guys today they go two coaches. They can't play with
the damn they can't break eighty. And you know, we
saw with Tiger Woods, which was where the most fascinating
things of my career and one of the saddest things
because this man is definitely the most talented man that
ever played golf. There's no question about that. He should
(25:17):
have won twenty five majors. At least he was winning
one and a half a year, or maybe even two.
I don't know the exact the number. But he wins
the US Open by fifteen shots, not five fifteen. He
then goes yeah, and now he changes he's swing and
he doesn't want a major for eleven years, and then
he somebody decides, no, I better go back to my
own way. You know it's I'm a great believer their
(25:40):
categories of teachers like categories in business. If I'm getting
with a lesson from somebody, I want to go along
and play with somebody and have a lesson. Who could
do it under pressure in a championship, particularly a major.
And you know, nobody was better than Tiger Woods. Why
had he not changed, he would have won twenty five
(26:01):
majors at least. And I would love to have seen
that because it boosts golf, and he was so great
and to see where he came from, to see what
he was doing was most gratifying for me. And I
just love to see him play with My wish should
have been for you guys to have played against him,
(26:21):
you and Jack and on it, because it's in the
modern game. Like I just I love golf. I love
the sport and I love the challenges that gives. And um,
in my eyes, I feel I've underachieved a lot. But
then I look at you guys that took all opportunity,
most of the opportunities, and and you lost a lot.
But but you you put yourself in a position to
(26:44):
win so many times that you did. Um, But I
would love to have seen the young Gary players play
against Tiger Woods, and you know, because Tiger when he
was winning a lot and you could tell me if
I'm wrong. River, It seemed like a lot of guys
type videos used to keep the space because the other guys.
(27:06):
You knew that guys are gonna fall away. Great and
you guys, if I look at the back, you know
again highlights and it's one of my regrets. And never
been able to see you guys play in a prime.
But very few times you guys won. Somebody gave it
to you went and you got it. You mean shooting
(27:27):
thirty on the at the Master's at Augusta on the
back nine on Sunday. We didn't see that anymore. Last
time we saw it was when I think Nicholson be
to any in Um for the for his first one.
You know, it doesn't I made the four birdies. But
you very seldom see someone in a major, and I
(27:49):
think we used to see it more in your time.
Somebody come from behind and and do that five and
six and back nine. Yeah, that's sort of superstars. You know,
like today there's there's great players and maybe technology has
broad guys a little closer together. And maybe I don't
know you can argue that point, but but it seemed
like back then you just look at their faces, the
(28:11):
determination that happened. It can't tell me they were They
didn't feel the pressure that the guy feels today at
the same pressure, yet it's almost like they wanted it more.
That's right, that's right. And also, you know, when you
think when we played, we played with hundreds of spike
(28:33):
marks on the green because of steel spikes. The bunkers
didn't have machines to break each bunk of the same
in Johannesburg as in New York, and we didn't have
bits to take us. I offer went by a Grayhound bus.
I remember game bus from Fort Worth to Houston. So
I would love to have had the opportunity of playing
against Tiger with the same conditions and not and not
(28:54):
under the conditions we played under because we were not
scared of people. We didn't buckle under and get scared
to play against anybody because we came up in a
very hard way of having to play. Look at Trevino,
I mean, is nobody playing the tour today today that
can hit the ball from Teacher Green like Trevino did.
I mean, this guy was so good. He never missed
(29:16):
fairways in greens. He was absolutely unbelievable at striking the ball.
From teaching and forgiving technology, Yes, that's this is the
big issue. It's such a the ball goes fifty yards
further now. I'm e T five now and still shooting
par If I had to go back to my old equipment,
I will, I tell you either, I wouldn't break Eddie.
(29:38):
So but anyway, that's that's great that that the technology
has improved. It's great that they're playing for more prize
money and they got Jis. I think it's wonderful. It's
absolutely terrific to see that. And Charlott's so nice to
talk to you. I enjoyed it very much. You've always
been one of my favorites. And I hope you played
very well. Uh and you come back and play full
(30:01):
time all the time. Yeah, Thanks Eric, all the best
to you too. Don't forget to subscribe to the Player
series on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast
M Well, first of all, I like to welcome you
Shall to the Player series. It's so nice to have
you a child, I've known you since you were we
lad and always amile. The way you play, and the
first question I'd really like to ask you. You know,
one of the things that fascinated me about your career.
(00:23):
You joined the Turn to eleven and please forgive me
if I'm not correct, and yet you won the Masters
that same year. I mean that was really quite unbelievable.
I wasn't surprised because you know, I know how well
you hit the ball and how well you play, but
that was quite a thing. And you know, tell us
(00:43):
a little bit how you felt, you know, just joining
the tour and winning the Masters. Yeah, I mean I think, um,
you know, there was a lot more build up to that,
you know, so you know, actually physically joining at two
and two thousand and eleven, that was my East year.
But um, you know, with South Africa and the Sunshine
(01:05):
Tour in European Tour, grooming us before we get I
think it's played a big part, you know. Two thousand
and two was my December two thousand and two was
my very first European tournament. I was eighteen years old,
and you know we are we we plaid our school
fees going through SAfrica and Europe for many years. And
(01:26):
I used to come to America. I think my first
tournament wasn't two thousand and seven Millfield, um, and I
used to come and play the world events and the
majors on and all. And then in two thousand and ten,
I finished second to Ernie and Durral and I finished
third in Houston and that actually got me enough money
(01:47):
and points to have a full card on the on
the US two and for two thousand and eleven. And
you know, so it wasn't a strange thing for me
to be in America, but that was just the first
time that I actually had my full privileges. And you know,
two thousand and ten was my first Master finished three
(02:07):
year and it's a it's a golf course that the
first time I played it, I felt very comfortable on.
So you know, come eleven, I just came off a
win in South Africa, and I feed it off their
confidence in it. Um. It's one thing that I I
tell people, you know, they laugh at the smaller tournaments,
(02:28):
but I say that I don't care if I win
the smallest tournament. It's it still takes almost the same
amount of effort and concentration and determination then it does
to do to make a big tournament. And you know,
I've fed a lot of my job ag Open win
to win Augusta. That's right, and child, you know what
(02:49):
really fascinates me share there's so many people say, well,
you know, they pooh poo those tournaments outside of America,
that they've suddenly realized how what it is to when
I don't care what tournament it is, whether it's the
Hong Kong Open that all the Asian players and overseas
players here, you have to score lights out. It's been
(03:10):
like that ever since I was a young boy. You
have to really play extremely well, and to win is
another story. But what's fascinating coming up now with the
Masters this year, with Musa Yama winning, which was so
good for golf, they will probably make him the new
president or Prime Minister of Jamand I said him, listen,
(03:32):
if you are, please make sure Charlotte and I don't
need a visa to go there. So he said he
will arrange that. But the other thing that I wanted
to ask you was, you know when you won. It
was you were four strokes behind, if I remember correctly.
You had people like and Rory and Jason Day just
to mention a few, but you were so focused and
(03:55):
you were feeling so confident. And then the way you
ended the tourment with I was sitting in front of
the TV. They're jumping sky high where you were getting
those birdies at the end. What a finish. Yeah, you know,
it's something about that week. I was never I've never
felt under a lot of pressure. Um. I felt a
(04:19):
sense of calmness for majority of the week, and I
kept doing my own thing and I start to ah
my routine and my um you know, I kept the
same pace and everything felt really just in sync. Um.
I was fallback. And for some reason that morning, that
(04:41):
Sunday morning, I woke up and I said to my wife,
I said, I'm gonna win, I said, and I said
it with calmness. It wasn't like I said it to
put pressure on myself. I just I felt this just
sense of almost knowing. It might sound arrogant, but that's
just how it felt. And I was very happy with
my game progressed because from the week before in Houston,
(05:03):
I started on working on something just to hit like
this sort of fade, small fade under pressure at three
quarter fade shot And and as that we got on.
I did it every day and it got better and
better and better, and by Sunday I felt almost bulletproof.
And you know, I obviously a good T shirt down
(05:25):
the first hole, but they needed four second shot and
and like Gary will be able to recall that on
that side to those flags. You can stand there all day.
You know, you can go back this right, this right,
that's the better shot in your second shot. Hold, that's
a better chip in, then your second shot holding it
(05:45):
out from the fairway on the third yeah, exactly, yeah,
because the third hold it feeds to the whole, you know,
you eat it up the middle and the green and
it sort of spins towards all. And they managed to
go in. But that that chip shot on one was
just uh. I've refused to go back then chip it
again because I know I'll just mess it up. When
(06:06):
you were chipping, when you were chipping there, I said,
I'll give him twenty shots. He won't get this stuff
and down. And well I was right, you got it
up and down. What av uh um you know, and
then Rory just didn't get off to a good study
but get the first and by time I held my
second shot on three, we were all square. All the
(06:28):
lead was gone, and I I just felt, um, I
felt like, you know, you've got as good as chance
as anybody out there. That that's goloes to the lead.
And Tiger obviously got up to unbelievable start. He was
like five through eight holes and he was up on
the board and at the back nine I think the
lead changed and seven times, so eight times the lead
(06:52):
on that back nine, and I kept playing really well.
I just didn't do anything spectacular from that whole. My
only three part for the week came on the fourth
or eight at front left, the pin was back right.
There was a hundred foot part, and three parted on Sunday.
Other than that, I kept hitting really good shots, giving
(07:12):
myself a lot of opportunities, didn't make any um. And
then you know, standing on the fifteenth tea box, I
said to Greg McCarry, I said, Greg, we're gonna win this.
This is the keyhole. I said, fifteen. If you do
not birdie fifteen in this situation, you you're probably not
(07:32):
going to do it. And I hit driver six on
and just I went over the back, and I think
that's probably the you know, out of the four birdies
that six ft made there was to me the the
most important one, and it was probably the easiest part
of them all. Was an inside right up the hill
six ft. But at the time it felt hard because
(07:54):
I knew I had to make it. Um. Yeah, and
then I kept hitting good. You know if the four birdies,
you know, at the time, you just so in in
the zone and you you're just trying to hit the
best shot on every shot. And you know, sixteen I
(08:14):
had a great shot to both fit fed down to
you know, about fifteen ft below um, and I'll never
forget the crowd how loud it is down there when
the part went in on sixteen and um and then
seventeen to me was finally the shot that I've been
(08:34):
practicing for so long, that little three quarter shot, because
I hit it just off the on the right side
of the fairway and the trees were slightly overhanging and
I needed to I could get a pitch in which there,
but the trees were in the way. So I needed
to hit that three quarter fade shot with a nine nine,
and I just felt like that's what I was practicing for,
(08:54):
and I hit a beautiful shot to eight foot. You know,
it's just if you think, if I think back in it,
how these things happen? You know, you you can't h
you know, you've got to practice sort of with I
don't know, with faith of something happening. You know, you
can't concert is going to happen. But at that time,
(09:16):
if I look back for how long I practice that
specific shot and that's shot on seventeen is not as
easy as people think it is. You know, coming up
that first cut, the ball normally comes with overspin, and
if I headed over the green, my tournament's gone. You know,
I don't think you up and down from over the green,
not to that back flag. Um, And I hit it
to eight foot and made that paton well, I M yeah.
(09:40):
I mean hit the driver as lord as I can.
I was nervous there was the right shot to do
for you at that stage. I mean Greg Norman came
there one year and was driving the ball. He was
a marvelous driver of a golf ball, the strongest part
of his game. And he gets to the eighteens and
he takes out an iron, if I'm not mistaken, leaves
(10:04):
himself a long way back. Had he hit his driver,
he would have been then bogey the hole, missing the
green to the right to be taken his driver, he
would have been right up there with a wedge and
maybe even birdie the hole in one. One of the
things that the media and the public never ever seemed
to digest, would you fall back? I mean, I won
three torments in a row, starting at augusta seven behind
(10:26):
all three weeks. Weren't you six back on the back nine? Pardon?
Weren't you six pack playing the back nine? I shot yes,
shot thirty, and then the next week got seven behind
Ballesteros at the Torment of Champions and shot sixty five
and a wound'ty rainy day. In the next week I
was six behind Andy Bean and shot sixty f one there.
(10:49):
But my point is that people must understand it doesn't
matter how many shots you behind, because when you've got
to lead, the hardest thing to do in golf is
to may retain that lead. People to have no idea.
The whole eventually looks the size of a Bayer restaurant.
You know, it's not easy to play with that kind
of pressure. So I think people are beginning to realize
(11:12):
that now as we saw UH with you know, we
watched the US Open this year, and you see how
scores fluctuate all the time. It's always been like that
in history Art Wall when the master's six shots behind.
We've seen a lot of very interesting things to go.
But I'm sure you'll agree. If there's a golf course
in Heaven, we'd like it to be like August. We're
(11:33):
not in a hurry to tee off. But I hope
I'm the head pro there to prepare things for you
when you arlive there. But what I wanted to ask you,
what are you working on? You're not playing in the
Open Championship this year? This this this year? No, I'm not,
you know I was. I've been injured, injured on and
off for two years and UH world ranking went to
(11:55):
town and fifty and I started playing injury free this
year and I'm working my way back. I'm in the
top hundred now and feeling like my game is probably
better than it's ever been. Um. But you know, just
with COVID and stuff that the qualifying criterias have been
a little different, so I didn't qualify. So I'm going
(12:15):
to play this week in in Kentucky and I'll play
the following week at the three M. But you know,
to be honest, my since it's it's amazing the body.
If if there's any any small problem that doesn't have
to be something big, how it affects the way you
(12:36):
you swing the club and you your body reacts. And
now that I don't have any pain, I've been working
with my dad and David lead better. I'm getting a
swing in the positions that I used to play and then, um,
it's become sick of nature again. And I think it's
because I'm a little stronger now than I used to.
It's better. It's it's much more control than um, you know.
(13:01):
And what I've realized is that now that i'm driving
it better and and an iron place good, my my
wedge game has been weak. So you ask me what
I'm working on is is from twenty yards and to
sixty is being very obvious of driving and good and
long and I've got a lot of these and I
don't score. So that's that's what I've been working on.
(13:24):
And it's getting a lot better and um, you know,
and putting is always a thing that you'll work on for. Yeah.
In fact, I was actually watching last week. I was
watching something about but you when you were playing. You know.
The sad thing for me is I never saw you
playing your prime, So I got to go back to
all these videos and watch you play. And I remember
(13:47):
playing with you about a month. See, I don't know
two months ago. We played at Seminal and it was
very obvious how still you kept when you when you
parted still told today and then back in your videos
back you know what I was on YouTube, Um, probably
in the eighties and the seventies to two parts to
win tournaments. You didn't even look up, head stay down
(14:13):
and the ball went in, and then you looked up
and you almost like the crowd almost told you that
the puts in. And it's sort of stuck with me. Um,
you know, just as a golf lover and looking at
guys h people that are do different things how you
used to do it in the prime, And and and that's hard.
(14:33):
People don't realize how difficult it is to stay still
because you're head. We're all so curious, that's right. And
you look at Tiger, watch how his head, how still
his head was his head was so so still, and
so was Nick Felder. You know, it makes a massive
difference if and it's a good exercise for patients, and
(14:57):
that's what you need. And you're talking about a calmness.
You've got to believe you're going to make the put,
but you've got to also execute and have the right action.
And if you move, you've got no chance. You watch
people that got the hips. They're jumping all over the place.
They can't keep still. And it's terribly, terribly important. But
I think the word that patients, and it comes back
(15:18):
to the old story. You know, you look at the
shambro he's hitting the ball these prodigious distances, but when
he wins, he puts extremely well. And what wins golf tournaments,
there's no question. What wins golf tournaments is the mind.
This is something that you can never explain. Certain players
have got it. I can't tell you what it is.
I know that Weiskoff was a better player than Jack
(15:41):
Nicholas and he won one major Nicholas one eighteen. So
there's a lot more just than the swing. It's the
makeup of the person. It's the mind. And now I'm
going to and it's being a great putter, because if
you put well, you go into the next tea you
feel like Tarzan. If your three put you feel like
Mickey Mouse. That I'm not so I think the pudding,
(16:03):
like you said, but it comes to from the mind.
So the pudding is the place, the last place that
it shows up when a guy is in doubt. And
the videos I was watching of you, and I was
watching Jack and every or I was just went through
all the older generation guys that I never saw play.
You can see it in the guy's eyes. It was
(16:24):
the same as Tiger when he was playing now obviously
in his primary you can see it in the eyes.
That is the focus and the determination. And I you know,
just from the stuff that I saw with you that um,
every single time you want or played well, you can
(16:44):
see there was almost no other option than succeeding. And
I can relate to that. And for me, I feel
guilty because I don't do it and I don't get
in myself in that situation. Enough I done it myself.
But when every time I've won and I put myself
in a position, it was the mindset of I will
(17:07):
succeed in that that's sort of mindset made him so
determined and fearly failure wasn't an option exactly. You know,
charl I was called a nut when I spoke about
weight training all my life. And now you see the
(17:29):
guy's lifting weights. And I played with this guy called
Taysom Hill who plays for the Saints the other day.
I played at him in in Salt Lake City. Well
he's he's squatting with five hundred pounds. He's lifting these weights,
and you should see when he hit the ball too.
I mean, it is hard to believe that a man
could hit the ball that far with a beautiful flowing swing.
(17:51):
So I was criticized and condemned for lifting weights. And
then I said, somebody of fifty will win the Masters
or a major championship one day. Pul Micholson has done it.
I'm now going to say one day there'll be a
man of sixty when a major championship. I was criticized
when I said they'll be hitting the ball four hundred yards. Well,
if you get a guy like uh, the big basketball
(18:15):
player what's his name, Lebron James, if he come out
and play, he might hit the ball five Andre Jarge.
So we're in our infancy yet in this game to come.
But if you look at something very significant and and
and you know, tens of millions of people saw this,
but I don't know how many digestive full Micholson comes
out and he wins the p GA. He must have
(18:37):
lost I don't know, between twenty and forty pounds. His
face looked young, and then he was really focused. You
could see him how focused he was. And then you
watched the Wimbledon, which I watched every single shot shot
being in quarantine with Djokovic. Now here's a man that
has done what very very few athletes have done, which
(19:00):
I've been saying for years, exercise and diet. And here's
a man now who was exercising. Look at his body,
not one pound of fat on his body. And secondly,
the man eats differently to any other athlete that I
know of most other athletes, and there it is under pressure,
(19:21):
he was getting more energy. So eating and keeping your
weight down and exercising is also going to be a
massive thing in the future. Yeah, and I agree with you.
I am I've been fortunate also just to have exercise,
(19:41):
you know, since I've started playing the game, and I
can honestly say for sure, when I do my exercises,
I feel better, I move better, more energy, you know.
You Yeah, And I'm a big believer in you know, guys,
there's a lot of guys at you and I might
(20:02):
be scrutinized for us, but um, people that you've got
to do specific things for golf, Yes, you do, but
I don't believe it. Just do something, yeah, yeah, anything,
you know, if you do, because it gets some people
despondent because some of the exercises are really hard to do.
And you know, I'm the type of guy like if
(20:26):
I just even if I get up now and go
do five minutes and stuff, you do anything, it's better
than nothing. You know, it definitely makes you feel better. Yeah,
And there's no question. But it's very interesting to you
with David. David I think is a very good teacher. Now,
I love his idea of teaching. He's very very good.
So I think you're on the right line. And now
(20:48):
to go out, And I was just like to say,
you know, it, isn't it oneful to see South Africa,
a small country relatively doing so extremely well with all
our players and to see gay come along and win
that tournament amazing and went two tourments in England and
I spent a lot of time with him trying to
(21:08):
help him mentally. And he's a very good listener. You
know a lot of young people today are not very
good listeners. They think they know it all. When I
was around Hogan and Sneed and people like that, man,
I kept my ears open, although Massa was very despondent.
One year I played with Sam Snead at Greenbrier and
I tired with him in the tournament and I played
(21:30):
the last thirty six holes with him. We went in
a sudden death playoff and he beat me on the
forty three hole excuse me, the seventh hold mint. I
played forty three holes of him and I was a
young boy of twenty one, and I turned around and
I said, Mr Snead, is there anything you can do
to help me with my swing? He turned around said,
I ain't seen you swing yet. Son. A different time
(21:56):
live in you know, but you know, it's very It's
great to see the South Everything guys doing so well,
and it be let's hope another one could follow your
footsteps and within another major for South Africa. I think
they're very sure yeah, that's gonna happen, yeah, I said, sincerely, Hope.
(22:19):
So yeah, yeah for me. I before Garrick one, um
the tournament, Uh yeah, yeah, I don't in Georgia. He uh.
I said that he impressed me the most. He's the
way he's demeanor, the way he plays the game, and
exactly what Gary was saying. We played practice round with
(22:41):
him at the p g A and he was one
of the few guys that would come up and ask advice.
And you know, I was but with all the Swales
that I was doing this trip, my own shots and
they were all bouncing it into the bank and I said, yeah,
I said, I prefer, you know, using like a four
wine to run it up. And um. He was just
(23:02):
very open to advice and listening and then obviously taking
that and doing his thing. And I feel that's the
if you're able to do that, that's a recipe for success.
And he won a few weeks later. So my my
money will be on Garrick being the next guy too,
you know, new guy too. When you know that Louis
(23:23):
Louie is playing great golf, he seems to thrive in
the major he really does. He plays well. I felt
so sorry for him that he was open because he
he was close, you know, that's the way he was leading.
And I spoke to him a few times after that,
and it hurts. You know. John Ron made two fantastic
butts in seventeen and eighteen. Then he got pumped. Um Louis, Louis,
(23:47):
Louis will be Louis will always be a contender. UM's
doing well. But I think for you guys, kind of Garrick.
Garrick gets the ball a long way. He's he's sort
of up with the modern game. You know, I hated,
I hated still a good distance. I had a further
than I used to. But Garrett comes up and it's
as passed me, you know, and doesn't look like he's
hitting it. It's a strong boys. I like. I like
(24:10):
his game, and you know, there's nothing better. And that's
why when I was around Hogan or Snead or any
of those, those really superstars. And I don't use the
word superstar lightly. I think to be classified as a superstar,
you've gotta win six majors. You talk about superstar, not
a star. And I listened, and I listened to. I
always asked those guys something and Hogan gave me some
(24:33):
great tips which helped me to win all those eighteen
majors on both tours. So what you do is when
you do advice from somebody with experience, you say years
years of trial and error that you can get immediately.
There's no better way than to get success immediately than
to use experience. And yet so many people and young guys,
(24:55):
And what fascinates me is so many of these young
guys today they go two coaches. They can't play with
the damn they can't break eighty. And you know, we
saw with Tiger Woods, which was where the most fascinating
things of my career and one of the saddest things
because this man is definitely the most talented man that
ever played golf. There's no question about that. He should
(25:17):
have won twenty five majors. At least he was winning
one and a half a year, or maybe even two.
I don't know the exact the number. But he wins
the US Open by fifteen shots, not five fifteen. He
then goes yeah, and now he changes he's swing and
he doesn't want a major for eleven years, and then
he somebody decides, no, I better go back to my
own way. You know it's I'm a great believer their
(25:40):
categories of teachers like categories in business. If I'm getting
with a lesson from somebody, I want to go along
and play with somebody and have a lesson. Who could
do it under pressure in a championship, particularly a major.
And you know, nobody was better than Tiger Woods. Why
had he not changed, he would have won twenty five
(26:01):
majors at least. And I would love to have seen
that because it boosts golf, and he was so great
and to see where he came from, to see what
he was doing was most gratifying for me. And I
just love to see him play with My wish should
have been for you guys to have played against him,
(26:21):
you and Jack and on it, because it's in the
modern game. Like I just I love golf. I love
the sport and I love the challenges that gives. And um,
in my eyes, I feel I've underachieved a lot. But
then I look at you guys that took all opportunity,
most of the opportunities, and and you lost a lot.
But but you you put yourself in a position to
(26:44):
win so many times that you did. Um, But I
would love to have seen the young Gary players play
against Tiger Woods, and you know, because Tiger when he
was winning a lot and you could tell me if
I'm wrong. River, It seemed like a lot of guys
type videos used to keep the space because the other guys.
(27:06):
You knew that guys are gonna fall away. Great and
you guys, if I look at the back, you know
again highlights and it's one of my regrets. And never
been able to see you guys play in a prime.
But very few times you guys won. Somebody gave it
to you went and you got it. You mean shooting
(27:27):
thirty on the at the Master's at Augusta on the
back nine on Sunday. We didn't see that anymore. Last
time we saw it was when I think Nicholson be
to any in Um for the for his first one.
You know, it doesn't I made the four birdies. But
you very seldom see someone in a major, and I
(27:49):
think we used to see it more in your time.
Somebody come from behind and and do that five and
six and back nine. Yeah, that's sort of superstars. You know,
like today there's there's great players and maybe technology has
broad guys a little closer together. And maybe I don't
know you can argue that point, but but it seemed
like back then you just look at their faces, the
(28:11):
determination that happened. It can't tell me they were They
didn't feel the pressure that the guy feels today at
the same pressure, yet it's almost like they wanted it more.
That's right, that's right. And also, you know, when you
think when we played, we played with hundreds of spike
(28:33):
marks on the green because of steel spikes. The bunkers
didn't have machines to break each bunk of the same
in Johannesburg as in New York, and we didn't have
bits to take us. I offer went by a Grayhound bus.
I remember game bus from Fort Worth to Houston. So
I would love to have had the opportunity of playing
against Tiger with the same conditions and not and not
(28:54):
under the conditions we played under because we were not
scared of people. We didn't buckle under and get scared
to play against anybody because we came up in a
very hard way of having to play. Look at Trevino,
I mean, is nobody playing the tour today today that
can hit the ball from Teacher Green like Trevino did.
I mean, this guy was so good. He never missed
(29:16):
fairways in greens. He was absolutely unbelievable at striking the ball.
From teaching and forgiving technology, Yes, that's this is the
big issue. It's such a the ball goes fifty yards
further now. I'm e T five now and still shooting
par If I had to go back to my old equipment,
I will, I tell you either, I wouldn't break Eddie.
(29:38):
So but anyway, that's that's great that that the technology
has improved. It's great that they're playing for more prize
money and they got Jis. I think it's wonderful. It's
absolutely terrific to see that. And Charlott's so nice to
talk to you. I enjoyed it very much. You've always
been one of my favorites. And I hope you played
very well. Uh and you come back and play full
(30:01):
time all the time. Yeah, Thanks Eric, all the best
to you too. Don't forget to subscribe to the Player
series on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com