March 16, 2022 • 29 mins
Welcoming A.J. Daulerio to The Pod Club! In this week’s episode, host Jo Piazza reconnects with an old friend to talk about scandal, recovery, society, mental health, and his excellent new podcast Really Good Shares. A.J. himself is no stranger to public scandal. While an editor at Deadspin, he got into a legal battle with Hulk Hogan which sent him into a downward spiral of addiction and suicidal ideations. Now in recovery, his newsletter The Small Bow and podcast Really Good Shares use the powerful medium of storytelling to share recovery stories and inspire people to look inward. Listen to this episode to hear more about how he got to where he is today and of course, to hear which podcasts help him continue to soothe his soul and find ways to make each day just a little bit better.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, pod club, I just want to do a quick
trigger warning on this episode that we'll be talking about
substance abuse, depression, and suicide. After the first year of abstinence,
that's when things start to get really weird and the
adjustment period to figure out who I was as a
person required a lot more investigation, because that's really what
(00:22):
I need to kind of continue forward and grow as
a person, is to figure out all these things that
I feel like I missed a class on right in
terms of just how to be how to you know,
how to be durable for really tough stuff, and how
not to complain about things, and how to kind of
just move forward and get better as a person without
taking people down, which is kind of just like what
(00:43):
I used to do in my life. It's podcast today.
We're talking to someone who is actually a very old
friend of mine. The two of us started our journalism
years together, writing about none other than municipal bonds. Yeah,
(01:05):
look how far we both come Since leaving the Bond Beat,
A J. Dalario has had a pretty unique trajectory and
some would say a pretty unique downfall. I left the
Bond Buyer newspaper to become a gossip columnist for the
New York Daily News. A J eventually left for a
few different jobs, finally landing at Gawker Media sports blog
(01:26):
dead Spin. The Gawker media empire was a huge part
of everyone's life that worked in media back in the
two thousands. The site was sometimes nasty, but it was
frankly revolutionary for what it did for blogs and all
of digital media. It was really Gawker that made digital
gossip media more of what we know it as today.
(01:47):
They were often aggressive and ruthless, and a lot of
people really loved it, but man, did it really get
under a lot of people's skin. In October, a J
posted an splicit clip of Whole Cogan to the website.
He and the site's founder were subsequently sued by Hogan
for a hundred and fifteen million dollars. It led to
(02:10):
the demise of a decades long career for a J
and his eventual spiral into drugs and alcohol. These days,
a J's work focuses on the many ways that he's
recovered from that life altering event and the ways that
he's self medicated to cope with it. He started a
newsletter called The Small Bow after getting out of rehab,
(02:30):
and his work there has now been adapted into a
podcast called Really Good Shares. It's part interview show, part
storytelling experiment where a j talks to people who recovered
from all sorts of things, not just drugs and alcohol,
but severe depression, car accidents, and professional failures. The episode
(02:50):
that got me hooked was the one about James Fry.
He was the notorious memoirist who later admitted to fabricating
many parts of his life story. It was the day
after the second Oprah Show and I came home and
Oprah called me to see if I was okay, and
(03:13):
she first asked me if I was going to hurt myself,
and I sort of chuckled and I was like, no,
I'm not. She was like, are you sure? And I said, listen,
yesterday was a bad day, but I've had vastly worse.
And then she said, what are you going to do next?
(03:35):
And I said, I'm a book writer. I'm gonna go
write some books. I just finished listening to your James
Fray episode, the Disgraced Writer and the moment where Oprah
calls him to make sure he's not going to kill himself.
(03:56):
You talk to people went about out their most disgraced moments,
whether or not that is drugs and alcohol or public shaming,
which we know there's plenty plenty of shaming. But you
start the show out by getting all of your own
ship on the table. Drugs, alcohol, recovery, the Gawker Trial.
(04:22):
Tell me why you decided to go there with your
own story in the first episode. Well, I had a
lot of paranoia soon after the trial because I didn't
I didn't work for about eighteen months, just like kind
of unraveling from all that after the trial, between all
of the settlements that needed to happen, and I kept
(04:43):
getting en meshed in all these other lawsuits that had
nothing to do with me. It was. It was a
tough time, and but I also felt like it was
my fault for most of it. So I mean kind
of feeling like that I screwed up this company, screwed
up my life, kind of deserved it. While getting sober
(05:03):
and kind of just like being without all the stuff
that used to keep me calm and let me escape
from all these things. Having all those feelings was pretty intense.
And you know, as most people in recovery go through
a twelve step process and anytime you were in those
meetings and you have to kind of just like, you know,
talk a little bit about yourself. You talk about the
early stage of recovery. Mine was started in a courtroom
(05:27):
getting sued by Hulk Hogan. But also every time I
would share that story, most people would thought I thought
I was drunk, because I mean, like you come in
basically saying, oh, I'm a j you know, I have
sixty five days sober and I'm being sued by a
professional wrestler for a hundred million dollars, right, Um, kind
of people snap their head back on that. But the
(05:48):
thing was, it is just being kind of as a
public a public writer, and then being kind of just
like in involved in such a public lawsuit where I
didn't like look very good obviously too. To come back
out and try to be whoever I was at that
period of time, I thought required, at least to my point,
(06:11):
just like an explanation, right, And I was really really
trying to be conscientious about that. This is not a
redemption story. Whatever I'm doing publicly, I'm trying to do
this and I tell I mean, you can probably relate
to this, but I mean after years of kind of
spending time writing on the Internet for a story that
(06:32):
you you'd hope to get picked up by the slip
stream and and taken out to all these people. I
don't want to write for those people anymore. I just
wanted to write for a completely new audience, and I
had to be a little fearless about that, just putting
this out there and ignore kind of all the people
basically saying, you know, at least in my head, just like, oh,
(06:56):
here's the Gawker guy trying to basically get a job
back right back into the slipsty him. Of course. Well yeah,
but I mean, like, you know, here's here's someone who's
apologizing to everybody because he wants to kind of work
in media again, which is not the case. I don't
want to work in media to begin with, right, I didn't.
I just like, and this was my job for a
long period of time. But I hated myself and I
hated the work. I was so paranoid, Joe every time
(07:18):
I wrote about the DOCA trial that I I was going
to get sued, and I actually got subpoenaed like about
a year and a half into it, and to you know,
show up for another one of Hogan's lawsuits and it
got I mean it, I absolutely collapsed. I'm like, I
don't know if I can do this again, right, you know,
(07:39):
I just and I had no lawyer against hard to
just start all that stuff up again. And I had
to stay sober though, too, right, that was the most
important thing. So those are the moments that I really
want to kind of isolate in terms of just like, Okay,
this is the aftermath of all of you know, life
is still going to happen in the way life happened ends,
(08:01):
and I have to figure out how to handle myself
appropriately and not self destruct as I used to do.
And in order for me to kind of just, you know,
do that, I need to talk about as much hard
stuff as I possibly can't kind of incorporating that into
the show, you know, I mean it gets a little
gnarly sometimes. And we just did an episode where I
(08:21):
had to kind of call time out a couple of
times because I was just like, this is I hate
to use the word. It was activating me, right, It
was making things a little emotionally turbulent for me. And
what was what was that episode about? Why that was
about suicidal ideation and depression? And you know, all things
that I basically kind of dealt with my whole entire life.
(08:42):
And you know, I as as important as it is
for me to I think, talk about that stuff as
openly as possible. I recognized that it was just like,
oh I was, I was holding onto the stuff well
after the show and you know, I got I got
caught in a little bit of a tornado there for
a second, and I had to kind of just you know,
(09:03):
talk to a couple of people and just pull myself
out and you know, and take some more mids and
just get through it. But you know, that's that's what
my life is. And I think the greatest part of
basically about having this sort of kind of at least
openness about it right now, as I get to meet
other people that suffer through the same things, right and
(09:24):
we can all help each other out, right, you know,
we just ran that episode and just to hear from
people who have similar issues say, yeah, that was you
did okay with that was great. You know that we
can handle those sort of topics appropriately is as I think,
a real testament to bothe Julian as a producer and
just everyone else who works on the show, because we're
(09:45):
trying to conscientious and careful with those sort of subject
matters too. And that was the episode of Earthquakes for
Nice Earthquakes Clancy ARC. That's that's such a good name. Yeah,
you know, I think that you and I are very
similar in that we both kind of used stories and
(10:08):
reporting to make sense of our worlds, and so, like,
I really think the only way that I can grow
and the only way I can figure anything out at
all at this point in my life is by listening
or reading about other people that have gone through it.
And that's what I love about really good shares. Thank you.
(10:28):
I mean, you know, it's it's tough to talk about
some of the things that not only just like I
went through, but also things that I feel like I
the ways I heard other people right in the ways
that I kind of just had to really put myself
out there in that way, but not kind of just
like a math. I don't like it when and this
(10:50):
has happened a lot of times when you know, people
get called out for their their old blog post or
something like that or something and then they make a
mass apology to just the internet, right, you know, I definitely,
I definitely didn't want to come across that way. I mean,
you know, I treat the a men's process kind of
seriously because I've screwed it up so much times, right,
(11:13):
and this show is not that right. This is not
like a blanket apology for everything that I've done. It's
more about here are the people that I think are
just putting good into the world and have actually just
like you know, face some of these fears about becoming
a new person and and done so with with with
grace and dignity in a way that I really want
(11:34):
to emulate in some capacity and not be afraid of
my past, right, I mean, that's a really tough thing
to do, especially just like given the slug trail of
the Internet that I have right where it's just like
you can pretty much google myself and just like have
all these awful things come up. Your past is very public,
my friend, very public. Yeah, but it's um, you know,
(11:56):
I really it took a long time for me to
not be, like I said, afraid of that, or afraid
of what's going to pop up, or afraid of what
people are going to say, or telling me that I
don't deserve any sort of happiness moving forward, and I
had to kind of forgive myself first before that, and
that's a really tough thing to do, right, um, because
(12:19):
I'm now feeling Yeah, now I'm feeling all of these
things that I kind of suppressed and pushed down and
you know, drank away or snorted away or just like
you know, found as many other outlets in order to
not confront how I was feeling. And now that I
kind of just sit with all these stuff and to
sit with the things that basically say, just like, oh,
I was kind of rotten for a period of time,
(12:42):
but it was also kind of hurt, right. I mean
I had some I had some real issues that I
was not addressing, and now I'm trying to address them,
and I'm trying to kind of put as much good
back into the world as I did bad, right, No,
I mean I'm trying to offset that with the rest
of my life. It's like it's like off setting with
the carbon credits really is what it is. Yeah, But
(13:03):
I mean I feel like it's more about like I
don't care about any of this stuff that is on
the internet about me. I care about the things that
you know that I still have trouble with that I
still you know, having having young kids as you do
right now. I mean, I hate the fact of how
some days I feel like I spend the whole day
(13:24):
yelling and not even at them, just because I'm frustrated
to a point that I don't know a mule equipped
to handle some things. And those are the things that
I'm trying to fix, because I mean, those are coming
from the same place that got me in trouble before, right,
I can recognize that those feelings of frustration and just like,
you know, the feeling of being inadequate. I mean, it's
(13:45):
just like, those are the things that kind of made
me a really good gossip blogger. But at the same time,
I want to pull those out and basically recognize that
this is also the stuff that you know, my father
used to do to be and I definite they don't
want to be like that guy. But I also need
to kind of recognize that I'm human too, and as
(14:07):
parents were, we are ill equipped. But my the work
that I do and recovery needs to come first. It's
like that cole oxygen mass sort of theory airplane, Yeah yeah, yeah,
and I and I kind of I kind of apply
that sort of just thrashing it out to everything that
I do. But you know, for me, it's it's recovery,
(14:28):
it's meditation, it's my med's. It's basically talking to people
and it's going to twelve step meetings, it's exercising. You know,
if I if I start to kind of neglect that
everything falls apart for really good shares. Who is your
dream guest? Who are you dying to have on to
talk about you? I mean, and I was thinking about
(14:52):
this today, and initially I think we had Dan rather
as a person as I had. I've done some brief
work with him at one point, and I know, you
know how thoughtfully is now about his own career and
about his struggles with kind of anxiety and depression right
which I don't know if I'm outing him there, that's
(15:12):
what don't mean to but about so and I mean,
he's such a thoughtful and kind man and I and
I always wanted to figure out if there's a way
we can kind of work him into the show. But
then you know, from a personal standpoint, Um, Sarah Silverman,
who I dicked over at one point in a very
(15:36):
very huge, horrible way, and she had called me basically
in tears, basically just like, how did you do this
to me? Why would you do this to me? How
did you Sarah? Sarah Silveran was promoting her book, which
I think was called The Bedwetter or something along this last,
but it was promoting a book. And then I knew
(15:56):
her her editor, and he was like and I was
a huge fan, Like, I mean, she was absolutely just
like my favorite comedian for such a long period of time,
and I was just like, yeah, I would love to
have her do something for the site. So for whatever reason,
we decided the best thing to do was to put
her in the comments section and field questions from people.
(16:18):
And it didn't go well. And at the time, my
thought was that I needed to put the site first
over someone else's humanity. So because it didn't go well,
I decided to trash her afterwards and did this whole
entire post basically saying just like, you know, how awful
(16:38):
she was, etcetera, etcetera. So that kind of made the
rounds a little bit, and she saw it and was devastated,
and she was just like, you know, I I thought
I thought we had like an understanding at least, and
you know, I really wanted to help you out. And
you know, I like what you do and I didn't.
I didn't see this coming, right, and you know I
(17:03):
and obviously it was a very small thing. And I
mean she's gone through tougher battles obviously along those lines,
but it's stuck with me. And I would remember because
I made a choice to hurt someone for my own benefit, right,
and I had I made a lot of those types
of choices. But what I think is fascinating about her
is basically the way that she's kind of you know,
(17:25):
navigating her past work and how it's not aged well
and going through room sort of just like you know,
self investigation about why she did certain things, why she
made certain jokes, why she thought that was okay, And
you know, I just feel like and I feel like
this with a lot of people that I have a
(17:45):
new sense of empathy almost And we have a couple
of people in the show where I say, and James
Fry was one of those people where I think we
can share the same lamp, right because and everything was
happening with me with Gawker publicly, you know, James was
the only person who I could call and say, well, yeah,
I mean, just like you know, I mean, I feel
(18:06):
so ridiculous because I'm having this, you know, this billionaire
and this professional wrestler basically kind of torch my life.
And he was just like, well, you know, he's more
powerful than both those people, Oprah, and I was just like, well, yeah,
you're right. So, just like any any sort of absurd
sort of kind of just what what seemed like this
this stuff that was happening directly to me, James could
(18:28):
trump it right every single time, and I needed I
needed so much, right, But I mean it was also
just like there was there was no other person in
my life at that point who I could talk to
who could just say, I understand exactly what you're going
I understand exactly how you're feeling. Here's how you feel that. Yes,
here you walk through that stuff. And you know, obviously,
(18:50):
I mean I don't think that Sarah's over you will
ever get to have that conversation, but I feel like
I could have it in a different way than I
did before, right, And I feel like she would be
really I think that I think that she would have
a really good share so to speak. You know, I
saw it because she does a wonderful podcast right now,
(19:11):
really kind of just scraping through all that stuff and
handling some really tough questions about her her past. And
I'm like, you know, she's doing some work outside of
her industry. That's that's very evident, right that I can recognize.
But she's absolutely kind of just like talking to people
and and and making exactly just like some some headway
(19:34):
personally that you know, is very inspiring to me because
I I that's that's the purpose of the show is
basically just like whatever she's doing right now, I want
some of that in my life and I have to
apply that to it. I want to know what are
(20:25):
you listening to? How Long Gone? That's that's my favorite
podcast right now. Yeah, it's with It's with Chris Black
and Jason Sewet. Chris Black used to do, um, what
are you doing? Like the strategist for New York Magazine.
He's basically just like, you know, one of those dandy
men's writers for a long period of time, and uh,
(20:48):
you know, and they've done several podcasts together. But I
mean it is just New York Times just did a
huge feature on them, and the broadcast is basically what
they've called them. But but these guys have such a
rapport and I don't usually get into just super one
(21:08):
on one just you know, guys talking and interviewing sort
of formats, right, And I just feel like they're so
tight about it, and I always learned things too, because
I mean, there's they're so fashion forward and they're so
kind of plugged into the world in a way that
I just don't do it anymore. That I just love
the way that they handle it. And you know, it's
it's funny to watch this thing take off that was
(21:30):
kind of a pandemic podcast and then basically become through
on tour now like doing a live show of Yeah no,
it's it's become a thing, right, I see. I don't
usually like two dudes on a microphone that genre, no,
but they have something, they have something really unique about
their show. All Right, I'm scrolling, I'm scrolling. Is there
(21:53):
one episode that I should start with that should be
my main? Yeah? Start with me, Yeah, start with me
on a show that's the that's the best one I know.
But the Phoebe Bridgers one is really good, so poofy,
so handsome. You're also on the cover. You're also in
(22:13):
the cover of Alternative press, and let's really talk. That's
that's my vanity fair, that's your vote, is it not? Yeah?
I had I at least to cut out like all
press pictures and put them on my wall and stuff.
So is there so I can So you're saying I
can finally take down my Jimmy World pull out poster
and replace it with the Phoebe Bridges Alternative Press branded poster. Yeah, definitely.
(22:35):
Do you think is it is it weird to think
that you're that you're bigger than you know, like Bright
Eyes or or or any of these people like that,
who you kind of grew up idolizing. Perhaps news to me, Well,
it's how many times did Bright Eyes playing sl you know? Yeah?
Although I think they they there were more punk rock
than me, Like, I think they every television show is
(22:58):
probably correctly afraid of them trashing something or they got
in trouble for smashing all their instruments on like a
really really ancient stage once. So I think words spread
pretty quick. That's where this is so funny, because I'm
(23:18):
scrolling through this and this is like, you know, like
the Claire Maser has been on here. It's I mean,
it's literally everybody I was just on their show. It
was just on A Thing or Two. So Claire, Claire
and Erica have known them forever, as has a j.
They founded the company of a Kind, which was of
(23:40):
a kind, it was so before its time. It was
about sustainable retail and like great storytelling around these incredible designers.
And after that they wrote a book together called work Life,
and now they have a podcast called A Thing or Two,
which is the two of them talking about things really
(24:03):
mean that that's the best way to describe it. It's
things that they find inspiring or interesting. But they both
have this incredible eye for curation. So the thing that
they find interesting for the week is the thing that
you're going to going It's going to be the most
interesting thing of your month. Yeah, well, it's their part.
Their partnership is just say, is a true partnership to
(24:26):
which I got to see when I was on the show,
kind of their work in action where you saw you
saw Claire's personality and you saw Eric's personality and then
just watch it like you know, kind of vultron together.
It became kind of this one, this one super kind
of it was it was really wonderful to see kind
of an action. Yeah, yeah, there. Their chemistry is pretty
(24:49):
much undeniable. It's undeniable in person, and then it carries
over into the podcast to the whole entire operation. Yeah, everything,
everything they do are an Erica. We're above huge fans.
We just we just fan girl boyd all all over you,
every part of you. Gather the best and and just
(25:10):
their their their taste is impeccable. They know how to
do this. They just have They have a way of
actually just executing that I just find superb. And every episode,
every single episode, it's surprising, there's something surprising and delightful.
And the most recent episode, actually um, they talk about
(25:30):
a renowned butter sculptor, which I want us to listen
to a quick clip of because I mean, you just
you you want this butter sculpture in your ears, and
you want to know about this, and they always they
managed to find the things that you didn't know that
you want to know in absolutely every episode, because we're
(25:54):
starting with in a really exciting topic, the retirement of
the Minneapolis State Fair butter sculpture. This is huge. So
you and I have talked about the Minneapolis State Fair
a few times because it is a truly iconic state
fair that we have both attended. It's like the only
I mean, I think I've been to the Illinois State
Fair and then the Minnesota State Fair and that's it.
(26:14):
And the Minnesota State Fair is known for being like
one of the one of the best. It's like that
in Texas and maybe I think those are the contenders.
And yeah, I mean, just like the butters we like,
can you explain the butter sculptures? Yeah, I mean, this
is certainly this was certainly one of the things that
left the biggest impression on me when attending the fairer.
So there's a dairy tent in it you can get
(26:37):
milkshakes and soft serve and see cows being milked and
stuff like that. But is that where the birthing tent
is or no, that's that's the baby animal birthing tent elsewhere.
But I feel like they're probably next door to each
other and similar vibes. But in the middle of the
dairy tent there is a giant glass dome that is rotating,
(26:57):
so it's almost like, I don't know how to describe it,
like on a lazy Susan, but it's massive and inside
of it is a sculptor carving a bust of a
woman who's and they're both in Big Down parkas and
she's carving a butter bust of a beauty pageant winner
and basically all of the candidates for Princess K of
(27:20):
the Milky Way, which is this Beauty more Time, Princess
what Princess Kay of the Milky Way. It's too good.
I could be getting this wrong. Please don't fact check me,
because we're not journalists. I think all of the candidates
get their bust carved, but it may be that just
the winner does I think just the winner? Um, it
(27:43):
has been so amazing to see your face, my friend
me too. Thank you so much for doing this. This
is really great because it reminded me that it is
fully okay if I have B minus days and sometimes
a C plus. Yeah, I think I think that that's
really good. Shares reminds us of that we're all We
need to be aware that all of us are going
(28:04):
through it, and we don't see that enough because obviously
is just the glossy stuff on social media. Yeah, we
should do another podcast club, just like B minus minus days.
That should be could be our secret my new podcast
exactly That is it for the Pod Club this week.
(28:27):
Really Good Shares just finished its first season, so you
can mene all of the episodes right now. As a
quick reminder, the shows that AJ recommended are How Long
Gone and A Thing or Two, which I know we've
mentioned a few times now, and I promise we are
having Claire and Erica on this show very very soon.
Stay well, my friends. The world is hard talk next week.
(28:58):
The Pod Club is hosted by me Joe Piazza. Our
executive producers are Me Again and Emily Maronoff. Our producers
are Mary Do and Darby Masters. Our associate producer is
Lauren Philip. Our theme and additional music was composed by
Aaron Kaufman. Aaron Kaufman is also our consulting producer and
(29:18):
special thanks to Nikki Etre. He was just a wonderful
human being who I like to think at the end
of episodes.
Hey, pod club, I just want to do a quick
trigger warning on this episode that we'll be talking about
substance abuse, depression, and suicide. After the first year of abstinence,
that's when things start to get really weird and the
adjustment period to figure out who I was as a
person required a lot more investigation, because that's really what
(00:22):
I need to kind of continue forward and grow as
a person, is to figure out all these things that
I feel like I missed a class on right in
terms of just how to be how to you know,
how to be durable for really tough stuff, and how
not to complain about things, and how to kind of
just move forward and get better as a person without
taking people down, which is kind of just like what
(00:43):
I used to do in my life. It's podcast today.
We're talking to someone who is actually a very old
friend of mine. The two of us started our journalism
years together, writing about none other than municipal bonds. Yeah,
(01:05):
look how far we both come Since leaving the Bond Beat,
A J. Dalario has had a pretty unique trajectory and
some would say a pretty unique downfall. I left the
Bond Buyer newspaper to become a gossip columnist for the
New York Daily News. A J eventually left for a
few different jobs, finally landing at Gawker Media sports blog
(01:26):
dead Spin. The Gawker media empire was a huge part
of everyone's life that worked in media back in the
two thousands. The site was sometimes nasty, but it was
frankly revolutionary for what it did for blogs and all
of digital media. It was really Gawker that made digital
gossip media more of what we know it as today.
(01:47):
They were often aggressive and ruthless, and a lot of
people really loved it, but man, did it really get
under a lot of people's skin. In October, a J
posted an splicit clip of Whole Cogan to the website.
He and the site's founder were subsequently sued by Hogan
for a hundred and fifteen million dollars. It led to
(02:10):
the demise of a decades long career for a J
and his eventual spiral into drugs and alcohol. These days,
a J's work focuses on the many ways that he's
recovered from that life altering event and the ways that
he's self medicated to cope with it. He started a
newsletter called The Small Bow after getting out of rehab,
(02:30):
and his work there has now been adapted into a
podcast called Really Good Shares. It's part interview show, part
storytelling experiment where a j talks to people who recovered
from all sorts of things, not just drugs and alcohol,
but severe depression, car accidents, and professional failures. The episode
(02:50):
that got me hooked was the one about James Fry.
He was the notorious memoirist who later admitted to fabricating
many parts of his life story. It was the day
after the second Oprah Show and I came home and
Oprah called me to see if I was okay, and
(03:13):
she first asked me if I was going to hurt myself,
and I sort of chuckled and I was like, no,
I'm not. She was like, are you sure? And I said, listen,
yesterday was a bad day, but I've had vastly worse.
And then she said, what are you going to do next?
(03:35):
And I said, I'm a book writer. I'm gonna go
write some books. I just finished listening to your James
Fray episode, the Disgraced Writer and the moment where Oprah
calls him to make sure he's not going to kill himself.
(03:56):
You talk to people went about out their most disgraced moments,
whether or not that is drugs and alcohol or public shaming,
which we know there's plenty plenty of shaming. But you
start the show out by getting all of your own
ship on the table. Drugs, alcohol, recovery, the Gawker Trial.
(04:22):
Tell me why you decided to go there with your
own story in the first episode. Well, I had a
lot of paranoia soon after the trial because I didn't
I didn't work for about eighteen months, just like kind
of unraveling from all that after the trial, between all
of the settlements that needed to happen, and I kept
(04:43):
getting en meshed in all these other lawsuits that had
nothing to do with me. It was. It was a
tough time, and but I also felt like it was
my fault for most of it. So I mean kind
of feeling like that I screwed up this company, screwed
up my life, kind of deserved it. While getting sober
(05:03):
and kind of just like being without all the stuff
that used to keep me calm and let me escape
from all these things. Having all those feelings was pretty intense.
And you know, as most people in recovery go through
a twelve step process and anytime you were in those
meetings and you have to kind of just like, you know,
talk a little bit about yourself. You talk about the
early stage of recovery. Mine was started in a courtroom
(05:27):
getting sued by Hulk Hogan. But also every time I
would share that story, most people would thought I thought
I was drunk, because I mean, like you come in
basically saying, oh, I'm a j you know, I have
sixty five days sober and I'm being sued by a
professional wrestler for a hundred million dollars, right, Um, kind
of people snap their head back on that. But the
(05:48):
thing was, it is just being kind of as a
public a public writer, and then being kind of just
like in involved in such a public lawsuit where I
didn't like look very good obviously too. To come back
out and try to be whoever I was at that
period of time, I thought required, at least to my point,
(06:11):
just like an explanation, right, And I was really really
trying to be conscientious about that. This is not a
redemption story. Whatever I'm doing publicly, I'm trying to do
this and I tell I mean, you can probably relate
to this, but I mean after years of kind of
spending time writing on the Internet for a story that
(06:32):
you you'd hope to get picked up by the slip
stream and and taken out to all these people. I
don't want to write for those people anymore. I just
wanted to write for a completely new audience, and I
had to be a little fearless about that, just putting
this out there and ignore kind of all the people
basically saying, you know, at least in my head, just like, oh,
(06:56):
here's the Gawker guy trying to basically get a job
back right back into the slipsty him. Of course. Well yeah,
but I mean, like, you know, here's here's someone who's
apologizing to everybody because he wants to kind of work
in media again, which is not the case. I don't
want to work in media to begin with, right, I didn't.
I just like, and this was my job for a
long period of time. But I hated myself and I
hated the work. I was so paranoid, Joe every time
(07:18):
I wrote about the DOCA trial that I I was going
to get sued, and I actually got subpoenaed like about
a year and a half into it, and to you know,
show up for another one of Hogan's lawsuits and it
got I mean it, I absolutely collapsed. I'm like, I
don't know if I can do this again, right, you know,
(07:39):
I just and I had no lawyer against hard to
just start all that stuff up again. And I had
to stay sober though, too, right, that was the most
important thing. So those are the moments that I really
want to kind of isolate in terms of just like, Okay,
this is the aftermath of all of you know, life
is still going to happen in the way life happened ends,
(08:01):
and I have to figure out how to handle myself
appropriately and not self destruct as I used to do.
And in order for me to kind of just, you know,
do that, I need to talk about as much hard
stuff as I possibly can't kind of incorporating that into
the show, you know, I mean it gets a little
gnarly sometimes. And we just did an episode where I
(08:21):
had to kind of call time out a couple of
times because I was just like, this is I hate
to use the word. It was activating me, right, It
was making things a little emotionally turbulent for me. And
what was what was that episode about? Why that was
about suicidal ideation and depression? And you know, all things
that I basically kind of dealt with my whole entire life.
(08:42):
And you know, I as as important as it is
for me to I think, talk about that stuff as
openly as possible. I recognized that it was just like,
oh I was, I was holding onto the stuff well
after the show and you know, I got I got
caught in a little bit of a tornado there for
a second, and I had to kind of just you know,
(09:03):
talk to a couple of people and just pull myself
out and you know, and take some more mids and
just get through it. But you know, that's that's what
my life is. And I think the greatest part of
basically about having this sort of kind of at least
openness about it right now, as I get to meet
other people that suffer through the same things, right and
(09:24):
we can all help each other out, right, you know,
we just ran that episode and just to hear from
people who have similar issues say, yeah, that was you
did okay with that was great. You know that we
can handle those sort of topics appropriately is as I think,
a real testament to bothe Julian as a producer and
just everyone else who works on the show, because we're
(09:45):
trying to conscientious and careful with those sort of subject
matters too. And that was the episode of Earthquakes for
Nice Earthquakes Clancy ARC. That's that's such a good name. Yeah,
you know, I think that you and I are very
similar in that we both kind of used stories and
(10:08):
reporting to make sense of our worlds, and so, like,
I really think the only way that I can grow
and the only way I can figure anything out at
all at this point in my life is by listening
or reading about other people that have gone through it.
And that's what I love about really good shares. Thank you.
(10:28):
I mean, you know, it's it's tough to talk about
some of the things that not only just like I
went through, but also things that I feel like I
the ways I heard other people right in the ways
that I kind of just had to really put myself
out there in that way, but not kind of just
like a math. I don't like it when and this
(10:50):
has happened a lot of times when you know, people
get called out for their their old blog post or
something like that or something and then they make a
mass apology to just the internet, right, you know, I definitely,
I definitely didn't want to come across that way. I mean,
you know, I treat the a men's process kind of
seriously because I've screwed it up so much times, right,
(11:13):
and this show is not that right. This is not
like a blanket apology for everything that I've done. It's
more about here are the people that I think are
just putting good into the world and have actually just
like you know, face some of these fears about becoming
a new person and and done so with with with
grace and dignity in a way that I really want
(11:34):
to emulate in some capacity and not be afraid of
my past, right, I mean, that's a really tough thing
to do, especially just like given the slug trail of
the Internet that I have right where it's just like
you can pretty much google myself and just like have
all these awful things come up. Your past is very public,
my friend, very public. Yeah, but it's um, you know,
(11:56):
I really it took a long time for me to
not be, like I said, afraid of that, or afraid
of what's going to pop up, or afraid of what
people are going to say, or telling me that I
don't deserve any sort of happiness moving forward, and I
had to kind of forgive myself first before that, and
that's a really tough thing to do, right, um, because
(12:19):
I'm now feeling Yeah, now I'm feeling all of these
things that I kind of suppressed and pushed down and
you know, drank away or snorted away or just like
you know, found as many other outlets in order to
not confront how I was feeling. And now that I
kind of just sit with all these stuff and to
sit with the things that basically say, just like, oh,
I was kind of rotten for a period of time,
(12:42):
but it was also kind of hurt, right. I mean
I had some I had some real issues that I
was not addressing, and now I'm trying to address them,
and I'm trying to kind of put as much good
back into the world as I did bad, right, No,
I mean I'm trying to offset that with the rest
of my life. It's like it's like off setting with
the carbon credits really is what it is. Yeah, But
(13:03):
I mean I feel like it's more about like I
don't care about any of this stuff that is on
the internet about me. I care about the things that
you know that I still have trouble with that I
still you know, having having young kids as you do
right now. I mean, I hate the fact of how
some days I feel like I spend the whole day
(13:24):
yelling and not even at them, just because I'm frustrated
to a point that I don't know a mule equipped
to handle some things. And those are the things that
I'm trying to fix, because I mean, those are coming
from the same place that got me in trouble before, right,
I can recognize that those feelings of frustration and just like,
you know, the feeling of being inadequate. I mean, it's
(13:45):
just like, those are the things that kind of made
me a really good gossip blogger. But at the same time,
I want to pull those out and basically recognize that
this is also the stuff that you know, my father
used to do to be and I definite they don't
want to be like that guy. But I also need
to kind of recognize that I'm human too, and as
(14:07):
parents were, we are ill equipped. But my the work
that I do and recovery needs to come first. It's
like that cole oxygen mass sort of theory airplane, Yeah yeah, yeah,
and I and I kind of I kind of apply
that sort of just thrashing it out to everything that
I do. But you know, for me, it's it's recovery,
(14:28):
it's meditation, it's my med's. It's basically talking to people
and it's going to twelve step meetings, it's exercising. You know,
if I if I start to kind of neglect that
everything falls apart for really good shares. Who is your
dream guest? Who are you dying to have on to
talk about you? I mean, and I was thinking about
(14:52):
this today, and initially I think we had Dan rather
as a person as I had. I've done some brief
work with him at one point, and I know, you
know how thoughtfully is now about his own career and
about his struggles with kind of anxiety and depression right
which I don't know if I'm outing him there, that's
(15:12):
what don't mean to but about so and I mean,
he's such a thoughtful and kind man and I and
I always wanted to figure out if there's a way
we can kind of work him into the show. But
then you know, from a personal standpoint, Um, Sarah Silverman,
who I dicked over at one point in a very
(15:36):
very huge, horrible way, and she had called me basically
in tears, basically just like, how did you do this
to me? Why would you do this to me? How
did you Sarah? Sarah Silveran was promoting her book, which
I think was called The Bedwetter or something along this last,
but it was promoting a book. And then I knew
(15:56):
her her editor, and he was like and I was
a huge fan, Like, I mean, she was absolutely just
like my favorite comedian for such a long period of time,
and I was just like, yeah, I would love to
have her do something for the site. So for whatever reason,
we decided the best thing to do was to put
her in the comments section and field questions from people.
(16:18):
And it didn't go well. And at the time, my
thought was that I needed to put the site first
over someone else's humanity. So because it didn't go well,
I decided to trash her afterwards and did this whole
entire post basically saying just like, you know, how awful
(16:38):
she was, etcetera, etcetera. So that kind of made the
rounds a little bit, and she saw it and was devastated,
and she was just like, you know, I I thought
I thought we had like an understanding at least, and
you know, I really wanted to help you out. And
you know, I like what you do and I didn't.
I didn't see this coming, right, and you know I
(17:03):
and obviously it was a very small thing. And I
mean she's gone through tougher battles obviously along those lines,
but it's stuck with me. And I would remember because
I made a choice to hurt someone for my own benefit, right,
and I had I made a lot of those types
of choices. But what I think is fascinating about her
is basically the way that she's kind of you know,
(17:25):
navigating her past work and how it's not aged well
and going through room sort of just like you know,
self investigation about why she did certain things, why she
made certain jokes, why she thought that was okay, And
you know, I just feel like and I feel like
this with a lot of people that I have a
(17:45):
new sense of empathy almost And we have a couple
of people in the show where I say, and James
Fry was one of those people where I think we
can share the same lamp, right because and everything was
happening with me with Gawker publicly, you know, James was
the only person who I could call and say, well, yeah,
I mean, just like you know, I mean, I feel
(18:06):
so ridiculous because I'm having this, you know, this billionaire
and this professional wrestler basically kind of torch my life.
And he was just like, well, you know, he's more
powerful than both those people, Oprah, and I was just like, well, yeah,
you're right. So, just like any any sort of absurd
sort of kind of just what what seemed like this
this stuff that was happening directly to me, James could
(18:28):
trump it right every single time, and I needed I
needed so much, right, But I mean it was also
just like there was there was no other person in
my life at that point who I could talk to
who could just say, I understand exactly what you're going
I understand exactly how you're feeling. Here's how you feel that. Yes,
here you walk through that stuff. And you know, obviously,
(18:50):
I mean I don't think that Sarah's over you will
ever get to have that conversation, but I feel like
I could have it in a different way than I
did before, right, And I feel like she would be
really I think that I think that she would have
a really good share so to speak. You know, I
saw it because she does a wonderful podcast right now,
(19:11):
really kind of just scraping through all that stuff and
handling some really tough questions about her her past. And
I'm like, you know, she's doing some work outside of
her industry. That's that's very evident, right that I can recognize.
But she's absolutely kind of just like talking to people
and and and making exactly just like some some headway
(19:34):
personally that you know, is very inspiring to me because
I I that's that's the purpose of the show is
basically just like whatever she's doing right now, I want
some of that in my life and I have to
apply that to it. I want to know what are
(20:25):
you listening to? How Long Gone? That's that's my favorite
podcast right now. Yeah, it's with It's with Chris Black
and Jason Sewet. Chris Black used to do, um, what
are you doing? Like the strategist for New York Magazine.
He's basically just like, you know, one of those dandy
men's writers for a long period of time, and uh,
(20:48):
you know, and they've done several podcasts together. But I
mean it is just New York Times just did a
huge feature on them, and the broadcast is basically what
they've called them. But but these guys have such a
rapport and I don't usually get into just super one
(21:08):
on one just you know, guys talking and interviewing sort
of formats, right, And I just feel like they're so
tight about it, and I always learned things too, because
I mean, there's they're so fashion forward and they're so
kind of plugged into the world in a way that
I just don't do it anymore. That I just love
the way that they handle it. And you know, it's
it's funny to watch this thing take off that was
(21:30):
kind of a pandemic podcast and then basically become through
on tour now like doing a live show of Yeah no,
it's it's become a thing, right, I see. I don't
usually like two dudes on a microphone that genre, no,
but they have something, they have something really unique about
their show. All Right, I'm scrolling, I'm scrolling. Is there
(21:53):
one episode that I should start with that should be
my main? Yeah? Start with me, Yeah, start with me
on a show that's the that's the best one I know.
But the Phoebe Bridgers one is really good, so poofy,
so handsome. You're also on the cover. You're also in
(22:13):
the cover of Alternative press, and let's really talk. That's
that's my vanity fair, that's your vote, is it not? Yeah?
I had I at least to cut out like all
press pictures and put them on my wall and stuff.
So is there so I can So you're saying I
can finally take down my Jimmy World pull out poster
and replace it with the Phoebe Bridges Alternative Press branded poster. Yeah, definitely.
(22:35):
Do you think is it is it weird to think
that you're that you're bigger than you know, like Bright
Eyes or or or any of these people like that,
who you kind of grew up idolizing. Perhaps news to me, Well,
it's how many times did Bright Eyes playing sl you know? Yeah?
Although I think they they there were more punk rock
than me, Like, I think they every television show is
(22:58):
probably correctly afraid of them trashing something or they got
in trouble for smashing all their instruments on like a
really really ancient stage once. So I think words spread
pretty quick. That's where this is so funny, because I'm
(23:18):
scrolling through this and this is like, you know, like
the Claire Maser has been on here. It's I mean,
it's literally everybody I was just on their show. It
was just on A Thing or Two. So Claire, Claire
and Erica have known them forever, as has a j.
They founded the company of a Kind, which was of
(23:40):
a kind, it was so before its time. It was
about sustainable retail and like great storytelling around these incredible designers.
And after that they wrote a book together called work Life,
and now they have a podcast called A Thing or Two,
which is the two of them talking about things really
(24:03):
mean that that's the best way to describe it. It's
things that they find inspiring or interesting. But they both
have this incredible eye for curation. So the thing that
they find interesting for the week is the thing that
you're going to going It's going to be the most
interesting thing of your month. Yeah, well, it's their part.
Their partnership is just say, is a true partnership to
(24:26):
which I got to see when I was on the show,
kind of their work in action where you saw you
saw Claire's personality and you saw Eric's personality and then
just watch it like you know, kind of vultron together.
It became kind of this one, this one super kind
of it was it was really wonderful to see kind
of an action. Yeah, yeah, there. Their chemistry is pretty
(24:49):
much undeniable. It's undeniable in person, and then it carries
over into the podcast to the whole entire operation. Yeah, everything,
everything they do are an Erica. We're above huge fans.
We just we just fan girl boyd all all over you,
every part of you. Gather the best and and just
(25:10):
their their their taste is impeccable. They know how to
do this. They just have They have a way of
actually just executing that I just find superb. And every episode,
every single episode, it's surprising, there's something surprising and delightful.
And the most recent episode, actually um, they talk about
(25:30):
a renowned butter sculptor, which I want us to listen
to a quick clip of because I mean, you just
you you want this butter sculpture in your ears, and
you want to know about this, and they always they
managed to find the things that you didn't know that
you want to know in absolutely every episode, because we're
(25:54):
starting with in a really exciting topic, the retirement of
the Minneapolis State Fair butter sculpture. This is huge. So
you and I have talked about the Minneapolis State Fair
a few times because it is a truly iconic state
fair that we have both attended. It's like the only
I mean, I think I've been to the Illinois State
Fair and then the Minnesota State Fair and that's it.
(26:14):
And the Minnesota State Fair is known for being like
one of the one of the best. It's like that
in Texas and maybe I think those are the contenders.
And yeah, I mean, just like the butters we like,
can you explain the butter sculptures? Yeah, I mean, this
is certainly this was certainly one of the things that
left the biggest impression on me when attending the fairer.
So there's a dairy tent in it you can get
(26:37):
milkshakes and soft serve and see cows being milked and
stuff like that. But is that where the birthing tent
is or no, that's that's the baby animal birthing tent elsewhere.
But I feel like they're probably next door to each
other and similar vibes. But in the middle of the
dairy tent there is a giant glass dome that is rotating,
(26:57):
so it's almost like, I don't know how to describe it,
like on a lazy Susan, but it's massive and inside
of it is a sculptor carving a bust of a
woman who's and they're both in Big Down parkas and
she's carving a butter bust of a beauty pageant winner
and basically all of the candidates for Princess K of
(27:20):
the Milky Way, which is this Beauty more Time, Princess
what Princess Kay of the Milky Way. It's too good.
I could be getting this wrong. Please don't fact check me,
because we're not journalists. I think all of the candidates
get their bust carved, but it may be that just
the winner does I think just the winner? Um, it
(27:43):
has been so amazing to see your face, my friend
me too. Thank you so much for doing this. This
is really great because it reminded me that it is
fully okay if I have B minus days and sometimes
a C plus. Yeah, I think I think that that's
really good. Shares reminds us of that we're all We
need to be aware that all of us are going
(28:04):
through it, and we don't see that enough because obviously
is just the glossy stuff on social media. Yeah, we
should do another podcast club, just like B minus minus days.
That should be could be our secret my new podcast
exactly That is it for the Pod Club this week.
(28:27):
Really Good Shares just finished its first season, so you
can mene all of the episodes right now. As a
quick reminder, the shows that AJ recommended are How Long
Gone and A Thing or Two, which I know we've
mentioned a few times now, and I promise we are
having Claire and Erica on this show very very soon.
Stay well, my friends. The world is hard talk next week.
(28:58):
The Pod Club is hosted by me Joe Piazza. Our
executive producers are Me Again and Emily Maronoff. Our producers
are Mary Do and Darby Masters. Our associate producer is
Lauren Philip. Our theme and additional music was composed by
Aaron Kaufman. Aaron Kaufman is also our consulting producer and
(29:18):
special thanks to Nikki Etre. He was just a wonderful
human being who I like to think at the end
of episodes.
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