S2/E3: Deedra Irwin (USA Biathlon)

In this episode The PowHERful podcast we meet Deedra Irwin, a member of USA Biathlon who is working to bring home the very first medal for the US in the sport. It’s the only winter sport America has not brought home a medal in but Irwin took a big step towards the goal in her first Olympics in 2022, finishing 7th in the 15km individual race - the highest place an American had ever earned in the race in an international competition.

 

While working towards that goal, Irwin and her teammates have been fighting a much bigger battle to change the reported culture of abuse and harassment she and other female teammates have detailed in multiple Associated Press reports. The allegations go back decades and Irwin gives powerful testimony as to why this battle was so important for her to fight to change the sport she loves for the better.

 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, friends, and welcome to the Powerful Podcast. I'm your
host Aja McCord. In this podcast, we introduce you to
powerful women who were changing the game in and outside
of their field of play. These are women's stories, women
who happen to be doing things that many of us
can only dream of, but the lessons and inspiration they
share is universal. Welcome back to the Powerful Podcast. I

(00:23):
am your host aj McCord and this season we are
diving into all things winter, extreme, Olympic and outdoor sports.
And you guys, this episode, I cannot wait for you
to meet deejre Irwin. She is a biathlete who is
trying to bring home the very first US medal in
that sport in the Olympics. She and her teammates are

(00:43):
working so hard in this qualifying season for twenty twenty
six and they've got a lot going on. Diitra is
sharing a lot with us about the culture of USA Biathlon,
the similarities between what USA Gymnastics went through with Larry
Nasser and just the burden of carrying that shame and
that responsibility to make things better for themselves for the

(01:07):
next generation. And I think it's something that I felt
really empowered by because you hear how hard it was
and you also heard the conviction of how important it
was to keep going. So I hope you enjoyed this
episode of The Powerful It is with Deidre Irwin, who
is a USA by athlete. Welcome back to the Powerful Podcast.

(01:32):
It is so exciting to have Dedre Ierwin on the
show this week. My gosh, Dedra, you are a twenty
twenty two Olympian. She casually had the best finish by
any US athlete an international competition in twenty twenty two
in Beijing when she plays seventh in the fifteen kilometer
individual biathlon, which yes, that means two sports in one.

(01:54):
We're going to get into it and fun fact or
not so fun in this case. But the fact that
Dij's a change is that biathlon is the only winter
sport that the US has not won a medal in.
But Dedre, you are working to change that and also
to change the culture around a sport that has desperately
needed an overhaul from the sounds of it. So welcome

(02:15):
to the Powerful Podcast. I'm so excited to have you.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Thank you. I'm really excited to share my story.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
Well, I want to start at the beginning, because biathlon
is not I mean, I know you're from Wisconsin, but
unless I have my I still don't think biathlon is
necessarily the first sport that kiddos get into growing up
in Wisconsin. How did you find this very unique winter sport.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
So I actually didn't find biathlon specifically until I was
twenty five years old, but Nordic skiing fell into my
lap at around sixteen years old. When I was in
high school, I was very athletic, but during the winter,
I didn't really like running on snow. So I was

(02:58):
like a swimmer, basketball play there, like pretty casual stuff.
But when I got to track season, I noticed I
was never in the shape I wanted to be in.
And so I had a couple of teammates that were like, oh,
we weed Nordic ski come with us, and I like
idolized them. I thought they were the coolest kids ever.
So of course I was like, yeah, I'll come with you.
And so those two, those two athletes were like my inspiration.

(03:21):
I wanted to follow them around and and uh, Nordic
skiing just it was so difficult, it was so different
than anything I'd ever done, and I just I fell
in love with it. I mean, it was one of
the first sports my mom said actually tired me out.
I came home from training one day and I was like,
I'm just going to do my homework and go to bed,
and she was like, hold up, what Like, wait, okay,

(03:42):
I'm gonna stick with this because we can actually like
control your energy levels now. So so for me, it
kind of just it was an extension of running for
so long, of like how do I stay in shape
over the winter so that I can be a competitive
runner because that's what I'd always wanted to be. I
always wanted to you know, I looked up to like
eight hundred meters track and field athletes. That's what I

(04:03):
wanted to do. I was glued to my TV this summer,
watching the wind, watching the Summer Olympics. I'm such a fan,
So that was kind of my you know, I just
kind of like happened to become a skier because I
wanted to become a better runner.

Speaker 1 (04:18):
Ah, But it didn't mean that you innately took up
with the sport, right tell us about the nickname that
your coaches and your teammates gave you, which I was
cackling when I read this. In a few articles. So
tell us about the nickname that you got given when
you first started Nordic skiing.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah, so, like Nordic skiing is such a unique sport,
like it has unique gear, so like you need the skis,
you need the polls, you need the sweatpants and the
jackets that repel water. I didn't own any of that,
so I was wearing just like a normal like cotton
sweatshirt and cotton sweatpants. So like when I fell into

(04:54):
a snow bank, I was just covered in snow head
to toe. And so they nicknamed me powdered Doughnut, which like,
in hindsight, so funny because like years later, you know,
my obsession with donuts is just like grown. And now
I've known for like on my Instagram, like I say,
I'll compete for beer and donuts, and I have this
whole fan club when I go to a certain location

(05:16):
in Germany that like bring me donut things. They bring
me donuts, now, let me grab it quick. This year
they have this amazing little little donut plushy, so like
are here, Oh my gosh, stop like donuts has just been.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
It was we had no idea does the donut plush.
You have a name, not yet.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
I was thinking about naming it beer, but it kind
of sounds it doesn't know if it fits yet, you know.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah, we gotta, we gotta sess it out. Although the
beer and donuts combo. I am interested in how that
goes down after a biathlon because I want you to
get into now. So you do Nordic skiing. You love
the summer Olympics, and it was two thousand and eight
in Beijing right that you were really like, WHOA, I
want to be an Olympian. And then a lot of

(06:09):
injuries happen in running, and so somehow you end up
going to a biathlon sort of scouting camp, if you will,
which they have for some Olympic sports, so that they
can sort of engage the community that might be good
at this sport but has never gotten a chance to
try it. What went down at that biathlon scouting camp?

Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah? So through college I did all three sports, and
then after college I specifically focused on skiing. I moved
out and did like professional skiing for a couple of years,
and I was thinking about retiring. I don't know how
many times I'd thought about retiring, even you know, from
running whatever. But finally, in like twenty seventeen, leading to
the twenty eighteen Olympics, I was like, I don't think
I'm good enough to make the Olympics, So like I

(06:53):
got to start moving on with life. And my best
friend now we had met at a Nordic competition and
she had switched to Byatha, so Joanne Reid, she was like, well,
why don't you just try it? Like there's this Talanid
camp that US Bathlon does and you know, like maybe
you're good, maybe you're not whatever, And so for me,

(07:13):
I was like, well, I was already gonna spend like
a year trying to figure out what to do after Nordic,
so why not spend it doing Bathlon and I'll still
retire after this year? Like, well, I didn't retire. I
went to the camp. I thought it was the coolest
thing I'd ever experienced. And I definitely shot some rifles

(07:35):
in the past, and I'd been introduced to Bathlon I
think maybe in like twenty ten at like a really small,
like junior national event where we just happened to be
by a range and like they were just sort of like,
come try it, and so I shot like five shots
and like that was my experience until twenty seventeen, and
so I just yeah, I fell in love with it.

(07:56):
The organization I thought was so passionate. They really were
just like, yeah, we want to recruit people like you.
We want to like figure out if you can do
the shooting part, and if you can, you know, make
some waves in our sport. And for me, I was
just yeah, this is awesome. I fell in love with
it immediately. So I packed up all my stuff and
moved from Idaho to New York and just like moved

(08:18):
into the Olympic Training Center and yeah, just gave it
a gave it a shot. And I think within oh man,
it must have been within like three or four months,
I was already racing internationally with US Bathlon and not
like I was racing well you know, I still like
missed fifty percent of my shots sometimes, but you know,
then there was those few times that I hit eighty

(08:38):
percent of my shots, and I was like, it's addicting.
It is so addicting to go from like missing, missing, missing,
to all of a sudden, like you're hitting a little
bit more, You're getting a little bit close to that
top twenty and so yeah, I just I fell in
love with the sport, and from twenty seventeen on it's
just been all bath on for me.

Speaker 1 (08:58):
So explain to me now, how because Joanne reads an
important part of this story, because we'll come back to
her impact on the organization as a whole in a
little bit. But how do you go from sort of
just picking up a rifle for one of the first times, Like,
what is the process to become better at a brand
new sport for somebody who is very competitive?

Speaker 2 (09:22):
Yeah, I mean that is there's there's They're definitely a
part of you have to have, like the natural ability,
and I think a lot of women have a lot
of natural ability to shoot, Like we're very we're very
good at shooting. Most women I've met, like when they
come to try it, like compared to their husbands or
whoever they bring their kids, the women can shoot a
lot better. And I think it's just like we have

(09:43):
a little bit more patience. We're not like poo poo poo,
you know. So I think for me it came a
little naturally like that part. But also the coaches I
had at the time just really like they gave me
some very achievable goals when it came to shooting, and
then they gave me the instruction of how to achieve
those goals. And so we do a lot of what

(10:04):
we call like simulation dry firing, and so that's something
that you don't do on the range. You do it
in like an empty room at the Olympic training Center
where you're just learning how to just take the rifle
off quickly and get into position and then put the
rifle back on quickly because that can like you know,
being able to do that in five seconds versus being

(10:25):
able to do one fifteen seconds is twenty places in
a race. Yeah, so I had really amazing instruction when
I was starting biathlon of like this is how long
we want you to like be on the mat, Like
you have thirty seconds to get on the mat, take
your five shots, and get off the mat. And so
for me, I was like, I'm competitive. You give me

(10:47):
a goal, I'm going to try to achieve it, and
like I wasn't able to get it all the time,
but I had this you know, I know what I
need to achieve in order to like get to that level.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
Yeah, that reminds me of we have Gwen Rudy on
this season of the Powerful Podcast, and she's trying to
make the she's trying to lock in a spot for
Team usay in the ski mountaineering, which is the brand
new sport in twenty twenty six, and she was explaining
the transition of taking the skins off the skis and
it's it's crazy, it's I mean, it's it's very similar
to the sport that you loved watching track and field, right,

(11:20):
Like that handoff in a relay is the most critical
thing in a lot of ways, especially if you don't
do it well. It can really make or break a
making a make or break an event. So so you
found this new sport in twenty seventeen, and then a
short five years later you were in Beijing, the exact

(11:41):
same spot that you were watching the Olympics in two
thousand and eight, except you're competing as a winter athlete.
When did it sink in for you? Oh my gosh,
I did it? This is like a full circle moment.
I think for me, it was definitely.

Speaker 2 (11:58):
The opening ceremony, like being able to you know, we
first got there, and of course it was a weird year.
It was COVID like a lot of weird stuff. Going on.
So I've never actually experienced a real Olympics, you know.
But for me, like when we were able to all
dress up in the opening ceremony uniform, we rode the
bullet train to Beijing because we were like three hours

(12:20):
from Beijing, and then doing the whole like walking up,
meeting all the other team USA athletes, and then for
me just like seeing the nest because it's like I
had all these memories of like seeing videos of it
when I was watching the two thousand and eight Olympics
and how epic it looked and all the fireworks and
the lights and they had this you know, I still
remember the beautiful like show that they put on. It

(12:41):
was amazing. And so for me it was like walking
up to the Nest and like going through all those
corridors and then I have this video of me just
like walking through because you're like you don't really see
too much. It's like a stadium, it's normal, and then
all of a sudden it just opens up and like
there's the Olympic rings, like elevated from the I don't
even know the sky. I don't even know how they
got up there, like, and they're just so bright and

(13:02):
beautiful and it was just I was like bawling. I
was like I've finally made it, like I'm an Olympian
and so like for me, that definitely was like that's solidified.
Like I was like, I am here. But definitely I
had like my second moment, my mini moment because like
obviously you can't freak out too much on race day
was my first rate, which was the fifteen k where

(13:25):
like I'm putting on the bib and has the rings
on it, and I'm just like, all right, this is
this is the moment like once I like cross that
wand and that wand goes and the beeps and the
and like I'm an Olympian. I've done in a race,
you know, And so for me that was like a
huge moment. I was like holding back tears on the

(13:46):
start line, just being like, okay, just focus. This is
no different than anything else, Like you're okay, you know,
having like a uniform, Yeah, totally, and then it's just
like okay. And then of course, like game mode, you
crossed that start line and you're like in it, and
so yeah, I distinctly remember having those like two moments
of yeah, like oh okay, I can cry I'm at

(14:08):
the opening ceremony and then like at the start line
being like I can't cry here.

Speaker 1 (14:13):
Oh my gosh, what an incredible journey. And then I
think it's so it's so cool what you and the
rest of your teammates are trying to do, which is
win a medal for the US for the first time
in the biathlon, which is kind of wild that the
US hasn't won a medal in that sport in particular,
What do you think is going to make the difference

(14:33):
as you guys prepare in this qualifying year from a
long Courtina, how are you getting incrementally better to the
point where next year you're giving yourself the best shot
at bringing home a medal.

Speaker 2 (14:44):
I mean, so we're actually here at the venue now
for next year. Our race this week is the pre
Olympic event race. And the amount of staff and people
we have in coming here to like support us and
get us, like, you know, ready for what is going
to be you know, three hundred and sixty five days
down the road. That's I think really been a game changer.

(15:07):
I said. Leading up to the last Olympics, we had
so much COVID protocol. We're kind of all on our own,
even during the summer and stuff like that. So to
be able to have we have like a whole sports
team coming here to like help us analyze the course.
We're all going to be wearing these little computer chips
to like, you know, see how we ski and like
learn how we can ski the course better and what
we can do. We're you know, doing experiments with altitude

(15:30):
training because this venue is at altitude. I mean obviously,
our our Wax staff that you know does all of
our skis, and all of our companies that work with
us for skis, they're all trying to dial in all
the equipment and all the magic that happens underneath that
realm of stuff that I don't understand. So I think
there's just so much more going into it than that

(15:53):
has been able to happen in the past. And I
also think one of the biggest things is seeing how
close I got is just I think it opens up
everybody's minds to like, I was not even ranked in
the top fifty in the world, but I had a day.

(16:13):
I had like just a really crazy day where I
shot better than I'd ever shot before, and I skied
better than I'd ever skied before. And I think that's
a really unique thing to biathlon is because there's all
this there's so much factors with the skiing and the shooting.
It really can be anyone's day on the course and
on the range. And so you can have someone like

(16:33):
me who had never ever ever done that well in
a race before all of a sudden be in metal
contention at the Olympics, and you know, if I would
have gotten one more shot, like I would have had
a medal, which is just still crazy to me even
now that I've actually like cleaned some races, I shot
in all my shots, and I've gotten better at shooting,
you know, since the Beijing Olympics. And so I think

(16:54):
there's also that level of like just seeing seeing the
impossible happen. And we've had world championship medalists, you know,
Loel Bailey's a world champion, Susan Dunkley's gotten two world
championship medals, you know, like Claire Egan was on the
podium multiple times. And so I think there's and we
have Campbell right right now who's just like, oh, he's

(17:15):
this close to getting on the podium. I mean he's
ranked top fifteen in the world right now, and so
I think there's just a lot of momentum that came
out of the last Olympics, that came out of the
generation before us, and then there's just so many technological
and like scientific advancements that are also like figuring out
how to help us kind of get to that next
step and catch up to some of these other countries.

(17:37):
And I think it's going to happen. I mean, I
have to like believe it's going to happen. If it's
not me, it's definitely going to be one of my teammates,
and it's going to be just as exciting.

Speaker 1 (17:47):
Yeah, oh my gosh. I and it's I think I
love that that reality that it can be anyone's day
in a sport like this, because I do think it's
it is unique to biathlon. How does that uniqueness? How
did that uniqueness, I guess draw you you know, it's
it's very different than running, than track and field, than

(18:09):
than Nordic scheme because there is that added, you know,
sort of element of like, oh man, if my SHOT's
a tiny bit off, there's all these other ways that
I can make up for it, Whereas in running, if
you know you got a sore ankle. You got a
sore ankle, and like there's not as much ability to
sort of find other strengths even within the race, to
find some mental fortitude from how do you feel like

(18:29):
that has helped you become as good at this sport
as you've become.

Speaker 2 (18:35):
I think for me it was just finding it. I
think I've always had that desire for this sport growing up,
Like I loved running, but for me, yeah, definitely like
the mental toughness and like visualization and all the stuff
that goes into that. Like I was always like what
more can I do? Like what more can I figure out,

(18:57):
like you know, nutrition wise, like strength wise, whatever and
being And I think like slowly finding those keys for me,
and they led to biathlon. And so when I got
like the puzzle that is biathlon, I was just so
pumped to try and figure out how to put it together.
And I love puzzles, So it was just like for me,
it was almost a no brainer when I found this sport.

(19:19):
Of like, now I've done some Nordic races, I've gone
back and like they're difficult. Don't get me wrong, I'm
not gonna say I'm the best Nordic skier in the country,
but like they're boring to me. I'm like, I love
the idea of like redlining from the start and seeing
how long I can hang out and how much I
can push, and like that will always be like so fun.

(19:40):
But stopping in the middle of your race and seeing
if you have that mental fortitude, if you have the position,
if you've done enough to make literally like those twenty
five to thirty seconds of perfection happen, it is amazing.
And when you can do it, it's just the coolest
feeling in the world. And I've never gotten that feeling

(20:03):
from any other sport that I've competed in. Even if
I'm not winning, like I can i can clean a
race and i can get like twentieth place, and I'm
still just like in heaven because I achieved something that
is so hard to achieve, which is shooting twenty for
twenty in a four stage race.

Speaker 1 (20:19):
Yeah. So, before we move into sort of all of
the other things that USA Biathlon has had to navigate you,
in particular in your and your teammates, I want to ask,
like breakdown for us those of us who don't know
as much about biathlon and like the process of competing. Right,
you got seventh in the fifteen kilometer individual race. But
how does it like? You know, you you ski, you shoot,

(20:40):
you ski, you shoot, walk us through the basics of biathlon.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
So the simplest race that we actually have is called
a sprint in for the women. It's seven and a
half k for the minutes like nine point nine or
ten k or something, and we have one prone shooting
stage and one standing shooting stage, and if you miss
any targets, you have to ski a penalty loop. And

(21:05):
so say you start a race, you shoot prone, you
hit all your targets, you're like, yay, you ski another loop,
you shoot standing and you miss two. Well, before you
ski your next loop, you have to go around this
tiny little penalty loop it's about one hundred and fifty
meters two times, and then you can go back out
and ski and finish the race. And so there's definitely

(21:26):
it adds fatigue, you know, it's mentally draining to do it.
And so that's probably the simplest race that we do.
So the individual which is the one that I have
kind of weirdly become an expert at at at least
world championship events that race, So it's fifteen kilometers. We

(21:47):
don't have any penalty loops, and we shoot four times,
two times prone and two times standing, and we actually alternate.
We do a prone, then a standing, than a prone,
then a standing, no spares nothing. If if you miss
a shot, you get one minute added to your time.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (22:05):
So it's like you can't even really make that back
unless you're one of the fastest skiers in the world
in our sport, which there are a couple who I've
seen like win with like two misses. But that particular
race is so focused on shooting that you really have
to dial it in and hope that you hit everything,

(22:25):
because if you miss five shots, it's really hard to
ski back five minutes on a fifteen k so's that's
like the one that I did well at the Olympics
and the one that I've done well at the last
couple of world championships that I've been to. But yeah,
we have a couple other like we have a pursuit
which only the top sixty from a sprint get to do.

(22:48):
We have a mass start, which only the top thirty
in the world get to do, and then we also
have relays, which those ones are like super fun. They're
pretty much everybody does a mini sprint and you hand
off and you just hope that your team can keep up,
and you have spare rounds for that one, so that
one people will shoot crazy fast because they know they

(23:09):
have three extra spares, and that one's super fun to watch.
So yeah, so we have a lot of different We
actually have I think six events at the Olympics.

Speaker 1 (23:19):
Wow, so a lot of opportunities next year we cannot
wait to see.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
Definitely have lots of opportunities. And like, like we said,
it's like bathlon is such a you know, it's such
a unique sport where like the top fifty people there,
any of them could be on the podium, And so
I think that's why, you know, you definitely there's a
few people who do really really well consistently, but every
once in a while you'll just have someone pop up

(23:44):
that you've never seen on a podium before and they
have a medal.

Speaker 1 (23:47):
Geesh, Well, I cannot wait to see how that all
comes to fruition in twenty twenty six. I know you
guys are working so hard to do that, to be
that class that Olympic class to bring home the medal.
I want to talk now about the other things that
you guys have been trying to do to impact the
sport and change it for the better within the US.

(24:08):
So give us an overarching sort of summary, if you can,
of what Joanne Reid came forward with and how biathlon
culture has needed a bit of a shift, a massive
shift over the last thirty years.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah. So me and Juanne overlapped for how many years,
I don't know, but before the twoenty twenty two Olympics,
both of us actually had We're struggling a ton with
communicating with staff and the culture on the team and
kind of how we were being treated as female by athletes.

(24:48):
And I hit a breaking point. And I'm in the military,
and I went to my you know, command office, and
was just like, we're getting her assed, and it's it's
I don't want to be there. And it's one of
those things where it's like leading up to the Olympics
and and you want to you want to be there,
you want to be on the team, you want to
be traveling on the World Cup. But for me, I

(25:09):
definitely was like I don't. It was so hard to
like be excited and want to be there when when
you're having to also navigate just these like cultural issues.
And so me and Joanne actually both came out came
forward with our safe Sport UH investigations in that year,

(25:30):
and that was also just like a very mentally struggling,
difficult process. Safe sport was so new at that time
still I don't even know when they started, but they
still were so new, and like I think they were
getting so many cases all the time from who knows
how long ago, and so navigating that was really difficult

(25:51):
through the Olympics, and once everything came out, you know,
it was kind of like swept under the rug, it
felt like for us and luck the Associated Press kind
of heard our story and saw what was saw Joanne's
you know story, and they were able to help her

(26:12):
share it. And I think that's the biggest thing is
like even with these other women coming forward, because now
we have like three decades, thirty years worth of women
who felt like they were pushed off the team or
cheated out of positions because they tried to stand up
for themselves, or they pushed back a little bit. And
in such a male dominated field, which is our coaching,

(26:35):
our staff and everything, and so I think the Associated
Press has done a really amazing job of helping those
women feel comfortable enough to come forward and kind of
face their demons a little bit. And I'm so proud
of all of those women who've been able to say something,
because it took me a very long time just to
even post my response on Instagram to the article, because

(26:58):
a lot of it I asked because I'm still in
US Bathlon. I asked to kind of be left out
of it because I'm still in this environment, which is
way better, you know, after after mine and Joanne's experience,
I think US Bathlon did a lot of self reflection,
and the athletes demanded more from the organization, and we're
still demanding more from the organization of you know, how

(27:19):
do we make sure we feel comfortable? How do we
make sure that this never happens again, or if it happens,
it's not It doesn't feel like you're being attacked, you know,
it doesn't feel like you're doing something wrong by telling
someone how you feel. And I think they've done a
lot of really good stuff in the past couple of years.
I've I've never felt more comfortable and safe with the

(27:41):
staff that I have now in the past couple of years,
and I know the articles are also shocking, and they
just they make people feel, which is what they should do,
you know, they should make people want to, you know,
grab their pitchforks and demand answers. And I think that
it's really important for people to continue to share and communicate,

(28:01):
and if anything, that's one thing I'm really proud of, Joanne.
I'm really proud of myself for coming forward and starting
the communication instead of just sitting there in silence and
hoping that it just gets better on its own, which,
you know, something that I've definitely learned in this whole
process is that like you kind of got to like

(28:22):
make some waves if you want to make change, and
it's a very hard thing to do. I won't say
it was like easy. And I don't even know how many,
like you know, hotel cry sessions I've had, you know,
throughout the years of just like why am I doing this?
Why am I putting myself in this position? But definitely
like I feel supported, I feel motivated, Like you said,

(28:45):
like we're so pumped to try and like get that
metal next year here, and our staff is so pumped
to support us as athletes and and I think the
biggest thing that's come out of all of the just disturbing, terrible.
I don't even know all the proper adjectives I could
use for it stories that have come out. I feel

(29:06):
so much for those women. And the biggest thing is that,
like we can keep communicating and we can keep changing
this organization for the better because it needed to happen,
like the talks needed to happen. Same thing with ice
skating or not sorry, gymnastics, Well, I guess there was
ice skating stuff too, but the same stuff with that.
I mean, it's just the more we talk about what

(29:31):
makes us actually uncomfortable and where our boundaries are and
how our staff and our athletes and our high performance
directors and our board can all listen and communicate better, Like,
the better the atmosphere is going to be. And so
it's definitely been like it's been hard, Like you've seen
joe Ane go through it, and I know, you know,

(29:54):
she loves Bathlon. She loved all of her time on
you know, competing and everything like that, and you know,
maybe I can convince her to come back.

Speaker 1 (30:03):
There we go another mission for.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
Yeah, exactly. I think, you know, she still has that
drive in her for sure, and I think, you know,
just I think allowing everybody to navigate through it in
their own way. For me, I kind of like, you know,
I'm competitive. I just get angry and I race a
little faster, you know. But I think the team we
have now, they're so motivated to do the right thing

(30:29):
and to be the right way that I think it's
only been positive in the past couple of years. And
I think any organization still always is going to have
to approve improve There's never going to be a stopping
point of improvement, especially when it comes to you know,
harassment or abuse or like the understanding of other people

(30:53):
in the room.

Speaker 1 (30:54):
Yeah. Well, because so to sort of go back and
maybe give a little bit more context to exactly what
it was detailed in the AP report, But there was
a lot of sort of power dynamics at play between
the abuse, right it was between coaches and athletes and
then reporting to higher ups and not really having anything done,

(31:16):
and the US being incredibly motivated to get this elusive
metal and biathlon so that they're bringing in coaches and
execs and things from other countries, other cultures and wanting
to keep those people that they brought in to try
and win this medal happy and sort of have everything

(31:36):
else get swept under the rug at the expense of
the female athletes who experienced it. And one of the
things that stood out to me and the AP report
was also that the male by athletes came out and said, yeah,
there is a culture of misogyny. There is a difference
between how we're treated and how the women are treated.
And it's one thing. I mean, what Joanne went through

(31:59):
is hard to fathom, I think because you know, I
was a gymnast of the USA gymnastics scandal really hit
home for me because you understand so like all too well,
how it's possible because you're out traveling, you're trying to

(32:20):
make it in a sport in gymnastics. We were so young.
Those girls are so young. You don't you haven't experienced
the world yet. And even if you have, you know
the power dynamics. This is your dream to be an Olympian,
to be on this team. How do you manage that
when it's the coach that's abusing you, when it's the

(32:40):
executives who aren't listening to you, What do you do?
Some women choose to walk away from the sport and
some choose to sort of suffer through it in order
to try and change it. And neither is. There's no
right or wrong. There's just, like you said, different managing
styles of it, and you said you had so many
hotel cries, so many questions of why am I doing this?

(33:02):
What is the answer? Why did you do this? Why
did you choose this path to come out to talk
about the harassment, to talk about the abuse that was happening,
all while pursuing your own dream and staying within the program.
Why was this the route that you chose?

Speaker 2 (33:19):
I think for me, especially like I didn't start traveling
with US Bathlone until after I'd gone through basic military training.
So and the military has also gone through this, like
we all know it, and they have a really great
program that they call Sharp. You know, it's similar to

(33:40):
safe Sport in a way of like how to report
and everything in the military. And I think for me,
it's like I'd learned all this stuff and I was
I was almost ashamed that I let it happen to me.
And so then when I kind of like was able
to find my voice, and I think there was you know,
me and Joanne have our support systems, and I was
texting someone back home or somebody had replied to one

(34:03):
of our texts at some point and just been like,
my daughter wants to be a biathlete and I like sorry,
like yeah, like will you guys be there to protect her?

(34:25):
And I was just like nope, I'm done. I have
to say something because I cannot let the next person
come on to this team and experience what I experienced,
because it's not fair to them. It's not fair because
it's not right. This is not part of the dream.

(34:45):
This is not part of the dream. And I think
for me, it was, you know, my introduction. I think
I maybe said it one of the articles to the
team was like, oh yeah, that Wax Tech, Like yeah,
he might slap your ass or something, but like he's
a good dude, and I'm like, that's not okay. And
so like I've been really proud of the fact that

(35:07):
since all this has come through. I don't like when
a new athlete comes under the World Cup, I'm not
telling them which wax texts or which staff members or whoever.
To avoid even from other teams. You know, I'm just
I'm able to just be like, welcome, this is the course,
this is the range. What do you need, like you know,

(35:30):
like what advice can I give you? Like if that's
what you need? And I think that for me was
you know, hearing that, hearing that from a parent of
a young female athlete who wanted to be where me
and Joanne were asking them, like it was it hit
me so hard and it's still like it's hard to

(35:51):
like think about the fact that, you know, when when
parents read what has happened this Bathlon, like will they
allow their daughters to compete? And that's such a hard
thing for me because I like love inspiring the next
generation of female athletes or orb skiers or runners or whoever.

(36:13):
I want to inspire young females to chase their dreams
and be in sport. But how do I also inspire
them to like protect themselves because as we've seen, it
happens in so many sports, it happens in so many
areas of life, and you want them to like keep

(36:35):
pushing and striving to be great and what if something
like this happens to them? And so for me, that
was my biggest I guess, like anger, sad, everything all
at once. Moment of like, all right, I'm gonna burn
it down if I have to, you know, And and
like Joanne was the same, I mean, and we had

(36:56):
a whole we have a whole army behind us. And
I'm so glad that more people I've been able to
come forward and express their concerns, because even there's female
technical delegates in biathlon who have been passed up by
males in the past, and they're always just like why,
you know, why, you know, we've had female staff members
that have only made it like one year traveling here

(37:16):
on why don't they continue to travel with us, Like
there's all the lifestyle issues, but also like there's only
so much disrespect we can handle to a certain point.
And I think for me that was like the biggest,
the biggest moment of like, we gotta do something and
even if it destroys my career, or if it destroys

(37:37):
Joanne's career, like we have to start the conversation of
how we're going to do better for the twelve year
old by athlete who is just like wants to be
in our position, wants to go to the Soldier Hollow
Salt Lake City Olympics in twenty thirty four, Like, how
do we make it better for them so that they
can come onto this team and just and not have

(38:01):
to worry about.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
Anything else, Because that's the hardest part, right, is Like
it's so universal, Right, whether it's an older sibling, whether
it's an athlete trying to inspire the next generation, there's
an element of I don't know, responsibility that you feel
of like, yeah, I want to inspire you to do this,
but I also don't want this for you, you know, I

(38:24):
don't want you to have to experience what I've gone
through in my God, the burden that you and Joanne
carried so that the next generation has it better and
all doing this while you are working so hard and
getting that seventh place finish in twenty twenty two is
what was the I don't know where did the strength

(38:47):
come from to just keep fighting that fight and keep
fighting the fight while also working at the racing, while
also having a support system and a life. You just
got engaged. I mean, there's so many things that come
with life, and yet this one thing could have been
all encompassing, and yet you're you're a whole human. How

(39:08):
did you manage all of it? For people who were
going through the hard thing? Who are saying the hard thing?
What's sort of the lesson or the strategy that helped you? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (39:21):
Oh man, I mean I think definitely, like if I
wouldn't have had Joe, you know, it would have it
would have been a totally different story. Like I probably
would have been quiet, probably still wouldn't have said anything.
We might still have some of those people, you know,
And I think we were really able to support each
other and build each other up, and when it was

(39:42):
all happening, you know, I mean we still pretty much
communicate daily, just like checking in on each other, and
you know, while it's happening, it's just like all right,
how you today? You know, like how many breakdowns did
you have? Or you know whatever, And like, you know,
I think just having that person, like you said, who
understands and who who has been there, who you know

(40:05):
is going to love you through it, whether you quit
the sport or whether you keep doing it, Like you know,
she's she's continued to support me while I continue racing,
and I continue to support her while she's decided to
take a step back. And so I think just having
her as a support system has been really amazing and
then for me too, I think like the military really
in those moments that I wasn't I didn't feel like

(40:27):
I was strong enough to talk to Bathlon, to talk
to you as Bathlon I was, they were able to
speak for me. So there were a lot of people
who I would go to them and be like, I
want to have this conversation, but I can't, like I
can't get through it. And so they gave me, you know,
they gave me an amazing advocate to help me communicate,
and you know, they were they were really behind me

(40:50):
the entire time. You know, they really supported me and Joanne,
I mean they pretty much adopted her like without her
joining the military. And so I think for me, definitely,
like the the Vermont National Guard really did an amazing
job of just making sure that like I felt supported
in that no matter what happened, if I decided that
I need to take a step away from biathlon that
or just step away from US Biathlon and just trained

(41:12):
by myself, that they were there and they were willing
to support me whatever had happened. And so I think
it really just came down to like just my support crew,
you know. When I you know, told my parents what
had happened. You know. You know, my mom was the
first one to like pick up a pitchfork, you know,
she wanted to go burn the whole place down. And
I think also that I was raised very strong. You know,

(41:34):
my mother's a very strong woman. So I think there's
definitely some of her personality in me too, of like,
you know what, you made it hard for me, I'm
gonna make it hard for you.

Speaker 3 (41:43):
Yeah, you haven't seen hard yet, Yeah, exactly, that's exactly.
So I think there's just so many people behind the
scenes who have helped, definitely helped me, who I know
have helped Joan, who have just been there to tell
us that, like, you're doing the right thing even though
it's really hard, even though it feels impossible right now,

(42:04):
even though there's so many other things going on, Like
this is such a small part that you can play
to make so much change. And I think that was
a really big thing that helped that helped me at
least through it in those moments, and that still helped
me through it. I mean there's there's times where, you know,
those articles get released and I just break down, and

(42:29):
there's it's just a huge, you know, gut punch and
it just brings back so many emotions. And you know,
I think just the the the therapy team that I
have now and like the support team that I had
back then that's still there. I mean, it's it's it
really just takes a village to make a change. It
takes an army to support those couple of warriors that

(42:52):
are still Sometimes sometimes we have a literal army, and
I think, you know, it just the more people who
can can support and you can also tell their stories.
I mean, I did not know what was coming out
in the last article, and it just it broke my
heart and it just it also, like you know, made

(43:15):
me feel like I wasn't alone, almost in like a
good way, you.

Speaker 1 (43:18):
Know, but also in a bad way, right because you're like,
I don't want this for anybody. I think it's so
easy in these scenarios. I know from what I've experienced
in my life, it's so easy to feel like, a
I'm alone and if I come out, then no one's
going to you know, you don't know what the reaction

(43:39):
is going to be. Am I going to get blamed?
Am I going to get told that I did something wrong?
Did I? Am I going to get asked what I
was wearing or what I did to encourage it, And
then there's also this so long yeah, And then the
more you believe you're alone, the more you're also like,
wait a minute, did it happen the way I think it?
Like you almost gaslight yourself the long you sit with it,

(44:00):
because you're like, there's no way, right, Like, there's no
there's no way this could happen. But I think it's
so powerful what you and Joanne have done, and we've
seen it with ice skating, We've seen it with some
mobiles and Ali Raisman and all of the gymnasts who
came out with USA G. How much power there is
when we look at each other and we say, A,

(44:21):
you're not alone. B this did happen the way you
think it is, And it did, and see it is
not okay and we are going to stand up together.

Speaker 2 (44:30):
What kind of.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
What kind of power has this team and your teammates
and your support group found because of this terrible trauma
and circumstances that you guys have had to navigate together.

Speaker 2 (44:48):
I think, like I said, it's just brought to light
a lot of like the systemic issues in our organization.
The unknown power dynamic that people didn't realize is that
like we were so reliant on someone as simple as

(45:08):
the person who tests our skis, so reliant on them,
you know, and like it's one of those things where you, yeah,
you definitely are like, well, I don't want to make
this person mad so that they continue to like get
me good skis or like test my skis properly. And
I think, just yeah, having that all come to light,

(45:30):
even the you know, powodynamic between staff and athlete and
female athlete. But I think a lot of them men,
like you said, like a lot of them didn't experience
the same way, but they've they saw it. But there
is also like the we now have better communication with
our wax staff about how we feel about skis. We
can't just tell them like, oh, we think we had

(45:51):
bad skis and then they'd respond to us we're like, oh,
well we just think you were slow today, you know,
where it's like, oh, well, actually no, the whole team
that we had bad you know. So it's like, I
think the fact that all of this came out just
more communication, more challenging that dynamic of like do we
work for you? Do you work for us? No, We're like,

(46:11):
we're all working together for this common goal. Our roles
are just a little different. Where the athletes that push
our bodies a ton, you are the science, magic experiment
people behind the magic wax that goes on our skis,
you know, and like you got the marketing staff that
are trying to make sure that we get all the
support that we have. You have like the social media
staff that literally just follows around with the camera all

(46:34):
day and you know, tries to make us look good.
And so I think that whole understanding that came out
of this was that, like we're all on the same
field and we're all working towards the same goal. There
shouldn't be a dynamic where people feel uncomfortable, where they
don't feel heard, where they feel less than someone else.
And I think that is something that I've you know,

(46:54):
besides like obviously throw at all the sexual harassment and abuse,
you know, there's also just that level of respect. I
think that has definitely increased on our team, and then
I see it in other sports too. I think the
more people challenge criteria, they challenge decisions, they challenge you
know what's going on, the more success we have when

(47:18):
we work together instead of it just being a couple
people running the show and a bunch of little people
being the puppets.

Speaker 1 (47:25):
Yeah, how do you feel like? Well, I guess first
of all, and I should have said it much louder
and much earlier in this part of the conversation, But
I'm so proud of you. I'm so grateful for what
you guys are doing, because I think for us as
fans of the Olympics, right, there's sometimes that we're like, hey,
we just we want you to do your best. Of course,

(47:47):
we'd like you to bring home a medal, but I
think it's so much more impressive what you have done
behind the scenes to change the culture than it ever
could be to bring home a medal. This is going
to be a much longer lasting change than any result
that you can have in twenty twenty six, in twenty thirty,
Like this is, this is so much beyond an Olympic medal,

(48:09):
And so as an Olympic fan, as somebody who competed
in a sport that had its own my gym was
really not all that different than the ones that you know,
usag had, and it just it means the world to
see you guys stand up for what you know is right,
to protect yourself and to stand up for that next generation.
You have impacted more people than you will ever know.

Speaker 2 (48:34):
Thank you. I really appreciate that. It's I think it's
one of those things that like as an athlete you
kind of come to terms with, like when you know,
like you're not metal potential or something like that, or
you're just you're to the point where, like I mean,
I started my sport really late, so I know that
the window of opportunity for me is pretty short. And
I think after the after my finish at the Olympics

(48:56):
the last time, I had this kind of like aha
moment where I was like, you don't have to have
an Olympic medal to have an Olympic moment, And that
was like a big moment for me. And what's been
nice is that the moments have continued to happen where
I've still been able to surprise myself and what I've
been able to give back to the community, and when
I'm able to go do speaking and stuff like that,
no one cares what place I've gotten. The fact that

(49:18):
I don't actually have a medal around my neck because
my story is really cool and it's inspiring, and it's
so cool to be able to share it with you
and thank you for being you know, the type of
podcaster that's willing to kind of find these unique stories
and find these hard to talk about stories so that

(49:38):
we can start making change, you know, in every sport,
not just by athlon and every Olympic sport and every
young athletes lives so that hopefully they have it better
than we ever had it.

Speaker 1 (49:49):
Yeah, And I think that's the you know, there's there's
the obvious trailblazers, right the ones who are like, oh,
this was the first time that women were to compete
in this way, or this is the first time that
this country was able to have an Olympic team, and
then it's the constant blazing of the trail that I
think so many of us want to do, right, Like,

(50:10):
I have had experiences as a broadcaster that I'm like,
I hope, I hope that I changed that place because
I don't want the next person to experience it that way.
And so it's just that constant you know, looking around
and saying, hey, we're all blazing our individual trails just
in an effort to make this world a little bit better.
Than we found it, and you and USA Biathlon are

(50:31):
certainly doing that in extreme and challenging and brutal form,
and so we see you, we're grateful for you, and
well you know you've got a fan in me no
matter what kind of metal you ever have around your neck.
I think I'm so excited to watch you for the
rest of your career and beyond impact the biathlon world

(50:53):
and so much more. Thank you, I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (50:56):
This is a fun and inspiring pod cast for me
to do.

Speaker 1 (51:01):
Girl. We're not even done, is the fun part. We're
going to transition to a little bit a little bit
lighter now because we're so grateful for the for the
hard things that you went through. And also, like I
said when when I reached out to you to ask
you to do this, I know there's so much more
to who you are than what you have, what you
have fought for, and so I'm stoked we got a

(51:22):
chance to get to know the powdered Donut, if you will,
in all of her glory from running to Nordic and
so now there she is. We love it. So now
I want to transition to our next segment, which is
sprought to you by the sportspra It is the women's
sports bar in Portland, Oregon. It is called something to
sip on, so dedre After you have a fantastic or

(51:42):
challenging or whatever kind of raise, I want to know
what is your favorite cocktail or mocktail that you're sipping on.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
Oh my goodness, that is so difficult. That's such a
hard question.

Speaker 1 (51:55):
I mean, of all the questions I've asked you, this
is the one that you here.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
Okay, yeah it is. I mean Wisconsin girl, Like I
feel like I have to pick a beer. But at
the same time, like we do amazing brandy old fashions
in Wisconsin and like every time I'm home, I have
to get one. But like after a race. I mean,
it just depends on where I am. I mean, when
you're in Italy wine you have to drink wine, France wine,

(52:23):
Germany beer. You know, it just like depends on I
think last weekend, we have a US Bathlon fan club
and they they saw me and I always say hi
to them after my race, and of course everybody saw
the engagement.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
You know yeah, and they were like, we have to.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
Do a shot, and I was like, oh okay, and
I think I get some shot of an imperative after
my relay and stuff. So I think, yeah, when you're
in when you're in Europe and you're in the US
bat and when you're in the Bathlon scene, it's crazy.
They party so hard. But I would have to say
probably just like a beer or schnapps after like a

(52:59):
minutely after my race. Like I've definitely just had fans
hand me a beer and I've just been like, okay,
thank you.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
So what is the what are you a logger girl?
An ip a hazy's what's your vibe?

Speaker 2 (53:13):
Yeah? I used to be a hazy I PA. I
think I'm allergic to them though, so I've kind of
switched to some lighter beers and every once in a
while do like the fruity beers now, So okay, I
kept trying to drink the IPAs. They're so delicious, and
I'd always wake up with like congestion, So.

Speaker 1 (53:30):
I hate the repercussions.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
Yeah, like, come on, everybody should just be able to
drink and feel amazing the next day.

Speaker 1 (53:37):
And what was the Wisconsin what's the cocktail that you
always have at home? Brandy, old fashioned, brandy, old fashion. Okay,
so the sports bra You have a lot of options here,
ye Brandy, old fashion or just a great And in
the Pacific Northwest they do beer very well.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
Can such a good beer? I'm trying to remember when
I lived down in Idaho. I think all of the
best beers came out of like Oregon, Like what's yeah,
they do a good job. It's called fresh squeeze to
this fresh squeeze.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
Yeah, yep, so is a good I mean there's one
on every corner. My gosh, I could go on awesome, Okay, perfect.
And then our final segment is what we call the
Powered Up segment, and this is where we do rapid
fire questions just to get to know yeah a little
bit better. My disclaimer. If you all have been listening
to this podcast now we're in our second season, you

(54:25):
already know what I'm gonna say. But for the newbies,
I'm terrible at rapid fire. I always want context, so
I'm going to try and stay rapid fire. All right,
So ddre are you ready? Yes? Okay, here we go.
Uh coffee or tea coffee? Favorite ice cream flavor?

Speaker 2 (54:43):
Cookies and cream?

Speaker 1 (54:45):
Oh good one? What is your go to meal before
or after biathlon? Donuts? Is an acceptable answer.

Speaker 2 (54:55):
I know that's the before, the before salmon and rice,
after donuts and a burger.

Speaker 1 (55:05):
Oh my gosh, what is your favorite flavor of donut?

Speaker 2 (55:08):
Oh it's like this old fashioned, like glazed donut from
my hometown bakery. Shout out to Schmeravas. They're a Polish bakery.
They make this thing called a crowler, and it like
melts in your mouth and if you dip it in
your coffee, it just like disintegrates. It's the most amazing
doughnut I've ever had in my life. It's oh drooling
thinking about it.

Speaker 1 (55:28):
Pulaski, Wisconsin, right, yes, Pelassi. Okay, so next time you're
in Pulaski, Wisconsin, that's your next thing to check out.
Are you a night owl or an early bird?

Speaker 2 (55:40):
Night owl?

Speaker 1 (55:41):
Okay? What is your favorite place your sport has taken you?

Speaker 2 (55:46):
Italy? I have to say Italy just most. I think
every of the every single venue I've been in Italy,
every vacation I've done in Italy between I can't call
them vacations because I'm training the entire time. But you know,
Italy is just my heaven and.

Speaker 1 (56:03):
We're manifesting next year in Italy everything being epic. If
you were not a biathlete, what Olympic sport would you
want to compete.

Speaker 2 (56:13):
In, oh, track and field? I would I would want
to be still doing the eight hundred if my body
could handle it, for sure. That was my jam. They
eight hid me to run, which was really a sprint,
let's be honest, and it's only getting faster.

Speaker 1 (56:28):
Yes, it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous to watch how fast people go.
What is the best piece of advice you have ever gotten?
So many, but I think one that always hits home
with me, especially when I'm struggling. My dad before one
of my races. I think it was a running race,
he just was just being chill. My dad's pretty chill.
He's he's not the competitive one of the family, like

(56:51):
compared to my mom. My mom's like go out, get
everybody win, and my dad's just like, you know what,
just do your best today. And I didn't really under
stand what it meant at that time, but like he
definitely had the context of like, if you give your best,
you've done the best, and it doesn't matter what place
you get, and so as long as you get on

(57:12):
the start line and you've given your absolute best on
that day.

Speaker 2 (57:16):
There's nothing more you could have done. And I think
for me that's like really resonated when I'm struggling and
like coming off with sickness or something like that, I'm like,
you know what, my best today might only be fiftieth place,
but I'm gonna aim for that fiftieth place. And it's yeah,
And I think that's one of the Yeah, definitely one
of the quotes or manifestations. I think that has definitely

(57:37):
stuck with me the most throughout my athletic career.

Speaker 1 (57:40):
I love that. And then the last question is this
is the Powerful Podcast and we're all about celebrating powerful
women in the extreme Olympic and outdoor sports and what
they do day in and day out in between the
metal ceremonies and in between the races that are nationally
and internationally televised. So Djer, I want to know what
does powerful mean to you?

Speaker 2 (58:03):
Grit, perseverance, strength, I think, yeah, Grit is a word
that's been hitting home with me a lot lately because
it can encompass so many things, whether you're whether you're
already having a good day and you can push a
little more where you're having a bad day and you
can push through it. I think having that ability to

(58:26):
just dig deep in whatever you're doing and just power
through the day.

Speaker 1 (58:33):
Yeah awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us
on the Powerful Podcast. It has been an honor to
talk to you. I cannot wait to watch you this
World Cup season and on into twenty twenty six. But yeah,
you got a fan in me. You're also thank you
for being on here.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
Thank you so much. It was so fun and you know,
invite me back whenever you want.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
Done deal, done deal. Thank you so much. Powerful POD's
glad we will see you next week. This is a
reminder to check us out every Tuesday everywhere you get
your podcasts, and if you really enjoy this and don't
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