March 22, 2024 • 48 mins
In this episode we are joined by clinical psychologist and author of 'The Defining Decade' to talk about all the frustrations, stressors, misconceptions and hard moments of our 20s and why it's only going to get BETTER from here. We talk about:
- Shifting from a 'what if' to a 'what is' or 'what else' mindset
- Why we fear uncertainity
- Milestone anxiety
- Sliding versus deciding
- Catastrophic thinking
- Insecure and anxious attachment styles vs. insecure and anxious moments
- And so much more
Listen now to hear all of Dr Meg's amazing advice and hear a bit about her new book, coming out next month.
Link to The Defining Decade: https://www.amazon.com.au/Defining-Decade-Meg-Jay/dp/0446561754
Pre-order Meg's new book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Twentysomething-Treatment/Meg-Jay/9781668012291
Follow Jemma here: @jemmasbeg
Follow the podcast here: @thatpsychologypodcast
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
the podcast where we talk through some of the big
life changes and transitions of our twenties and what.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
They mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to
the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners.
Wherever you are in the world, it is so great
to have you here. Back for another episode, back for
another topic, and today, back for another guest episode. I
(00:40):
love doing these every now and again, and I'm super
selective with the people that I bring on because I
want them to really have something to say about the
twenty something experience, about what it means to be, you know,
growing up during this time and at this age and
during this decade. And I feel like one of the
main experiences a lot of us have, one of the
(01:02):
universal twenty something experiences, is feeling incredibly behind and incredibly lost.
And today we are bringing on someone who has spoken
a lot about this, who has written numerous books about
this experience. Dr Meg Jay. Thank you so much for
joining us.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
It's my pleasure. Jima, I'm so glad to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
So if you don't know who make is, you've definitely
heard of her work. She is the author of The
Defining Decade, one of my all time favorite pieces of nonfiction.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Thank you. Yeah, So I am a development While I
was saying, I love the title of your podcast, because
that's my whole life. I'm a developmental clinical psychologist, and
I specialize in twenty somethings, which is a thing. It
wasn't a thing twenty years ago when I started, which
we could discuss that later too, But you know, it's
a very unique developmental moment. It has its own unique challenges,
(01:57):
its own unique solutions, and so that's what you know,
all my days and all my books are about.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
So what exactly drew you to really thinking about people
in their twenties? I think it was a natural inclination
for me. I started this podcast as someone in their twenties.
I'm still in my twenties. What was the fascination for
you with this, with this decade?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Yeah, so, I believe it or not. I have been
specializing in twenty somethings for twenty five years, so maybe
for like, roughly your full life so far. And so
when I started doing that, I was actually in graduate
school at UC Berkeley. I was getting a degree in
clinical psychology, and I was studying something called adult development.
(02:40):
And when you say that to people, they're like, what's
adult development? I thought adults were already developed. And you know,
adult development is if you look at a twenty year
old and you look at a hundred year old. Adult
development is all the stuff that happens from twenty to
one hundred. But when I started studying adult development, most
of what was done there is about you know, midlife
(03:01):
crises or you know, the elderly, or you know, maybe
it was you know, the child rearing years. But there
really hadn't been much of anything done on the twenties.
And we can talk about this more in a minute,
but it had been somewhat recent that the twenties were
sort of their own developmental moment. That I mean, they're really,
if you think about it, they're nothing like the teen years.
(03:24):
They're not that like the thirty something years and beyond.
They're really their own thing. So I was sort of
discovering this, along with a lot of research about all
the amazing developmental things that are happening in our twenties.
There's more change between twenty and thirty than any other
decade in adulthoods and I was living in a college town, right,
so I was inundated with young adults and twenty somethings
(03:47):
who were sort of, you know, my first clients in
guinea pigs and all this. So it just and I
had just finished my twenties, so it just felt like
there was so much there. It was really where all
the action is, and no one was focusing specifically on
that space. And one of the ways I figured that
out was a lot of people would come to my
(04:07):
office and ask the same questions. I would tell them
the same things, and I thought, you know, I need
to be able to recommend a book for people. So
I went into the bookstore looking for something back when
people did that, and there was nothing. It was like
the girlfriend's got dear twenties, you know, maybe there was
just some couple of fluff projects out there. So I thought, wow,
(04:29):
this is you know, an untapped need that there's this
period of time which is very unique and people aren't
really talking about it and focusing on and specializing it.
So I started doing that and I have never looked back.
I've never wanted to do anything else. It is just,
to me, the most important decade of life. It's also
super difficult, which we can talk about. But I love it.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
It's so funny. You was saying, like you've been doing
this for twenty five years. It's like your career is
a twenty something year old.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Yes, yes, exactly, Yes, it's all about it's all about
that decade, one way or the other.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
So you said something in there and you were like,
it's the most formative decade, which I really agree, but
it's also the most difficult. Like we it really exists
in this vacuum between adolescents and what I sometimes refer
to as like real adulthood, like in your thirties, when
all the things that you thought, you know, you would
(05:30):
experience as an adult, maybe getting married, having children, buying
a home, they kind of for a lot of us
are happening a lot later. What do you think creates
this real difficulty for a lot of us during this period.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Well, it's really that is that you know, you're absolutely right,
adult milestones are now you know, in about adult milestones,
I mean, you know, figuring out your job and finding
a partner, picking a city, you know, maybe getting a home,
maybe having a kid, like that's all sort of thirty
than to twenty now, and so in the twenties, it's
just this big, wide open period of uncertainty. There's a
(06:06):
lot more to sort of worry about than there is
to hold on to. The brain doesn't like that, so
your mental health does not like that, and so it
makes the twenties. You know, from where I'm standing, it's
an amazing opportunity to work with people before they've made
all their biggest decisions and to help them do that
more thoughtfully, more productively, more happily. But it's from the
(06:33):
other side of the room. The twenty something that I'm
work with is living with more uncertainty than they will
really at any other time of life. And that's what
makes the twenties so hard, is that it's probably the
only time of life where you'll wake up in the
morning and you'd think, gosh, you know, I don't really
know where I'll live in five years, or if anyone's
gonna love me, or if I could pay my bills,
or where I'm going to work, or if I could
be happy. And that's really really hard. And I don't
(06:55):
think we talk enough about how hard all that uncertainty is.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Well, let's talk about it now. Why is it that
this uncertainty is so scary for us? Like, how does
that manifest in maybe our behavior is even now mental
health the patents that you see in twenty somethings.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Yeah, well, I'll geek out briefly on brain stuff. But
but the brain interprets uncertainty as danger. And if you
think about this evolutionarily, this makes sense. Like if you
don't know what's around in the corner, you're going to assume,
you know, it's a beyor not, you know, it's a
little bunny rabbit, and things are fine. That's how we
(07:36):
survive that. Your brain is wired to keep you alive,
not make you happy. So when there's uncertainty, we're going
to interpret it as danger. We're going to feel stressed.
We're going to feel anxious. Some people get sort of
avoidant and depressed. Other people reach for substances or you know,
whatever they do to kind of manage that stress around. Yikes,
(07:56):
I don't know what's about to happen in my life.
So it's not something the brain likes very much. But
in the twenty first century, it's this sort of staggering
amount of uncertainty that twenty somethings live with I mean
they live with it day in and day out for five, ten,
fifteen years, and so that really takes a toll on
(08:18):
people's well being, on their mental health. Life does get better,
and we can talk about that too, But the twenties
are tough, and I think we kind of maybe imagine
are told that they're going to be this, you know,
best years of our lives, but they're probably not, and
you don't even want them to be. You want life
to get better as you go.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
I say that a lot. Actually, I was saying it
to someone before. Our twenties are when you have been
probably the least amount of money you will ever be making, right.
Your relationships are like up in the air. Everything feels
so uncertain, you'll probably quite emotionally vulnerable. You don't probably
like your job that much, and there is such an
(09:02):
expectation of like, these are your best years. These are
like you better like really hold on to them because
once they're going, like they're going to be the source
of all your nostalgia, all your memories. And I'm just like,
is that really as good as it's going to be?
Speaker 3 (09:16):
I mean, let's hope not. No. I mean that's what
I say to my clients. If your twenties turn out
to be the best years of your life, something has
gone terribly wrong, because empirically we know that. Actually it
may be hard to imagine as a twenty something, but
life does get thirty somethings or happier than twenty somethings,
And even old forty somethings are happier than thirty somethings.
(09:39):
Even the fifty somethings are happier. I mean it, Actually,
people do become happier, more grounded, Their relationships are better,
they have purpose, they have meaning, they have sort of
that emotional stability that life security. So life really does
get better. I'm not really sure how this kind of
myth keeps perpetuating that your twenties are going to be amazing.
(10:00):
I mean, there's some fun, cool stuff that goes on,
but they're very hard and all those things you mentioned of,
like you're broke, you're moving to a new city, don't
have friends, new jobs, stressful, you know your boss is
you know, stressing you out, et cetera. That's real, and
(10:20):
you know, the twenties are actually, I think, well for
most people, maybe more difficult than they are.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Sometimes that makes me hearing you say that, because I
I'm such an optimistic person. Right so, right now, I'm like,
my life is like the best it's ever going to be.
And so for some reason, when people are like, oh,
it gets better at thirty, it gets better at forty,
I'm like, but what if it can't get any better,
so it has to get worse? Like what if I've
got the inverse, like what if this is? What if
(10:49):
I'm the exception like it?
Speaker 3 (10:51):
But then I'm like, yeah, yeah, I find that hard
to believe because the reason life gets better, it's not
like just this random growth curve you're on. It gets
better because you as a twenty something whatever cool stuff
you've built that you're super psyched about. And I'm very
happy to hear that you feel like you have a
great life. You're going to keep doing that. So you're
(11:13):
going to build you know, there'll be more relationships or
deeper relationships, or your career is going to just get
even better, or your financial security will be better. And
I mean that's sort of why it happens, is that people,
I mean, there's generally an upward trajectory in life, and
of course nobody knows what's going to happen tomorrow, you know,
with the big stuff, but you know, in terms of
(11:34):
people's individual lives. I mean, I love it if you
feel like you've already built a lot of good stuff
in your twenties because you're just going to keep building
on that.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
That's so so reinforcing to hear. The other thing that
I that actually a lot of people, this is what
I really want to talk about, is like feeling like
there is almost it's a bit of a race, and
feeling like it's a race to find the one. It's
a race to buy a house, it's a race to
(12:06):
have it all figured out. Why do you think so
many of us feel this sense of just being behind
during this decade? And what are we actually behind? Like
behind what?
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Right? Well, that would be my question against clients. Do
say but I'm behind, And I say behind?
Speaker 1 (12:23):
What?
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Behind? Who?
Speaker 1 (12:25):
You know?
Speaker 3 (12:25):
If you say behind what, there's usually a who, Well,
so and so has such and such and I don't
have that, Or well my parents had X, Y and
Z when they were my age, and I don't have that.
So there's usually some person or some idea that someone's
comparing themselves to. But kind of the maybe maddening, But
(12:46):
a truly wonderful thing about your twenties and beyond is
you can't there's just so many different paths. You can't compare.
Like when you were in school and everyone was in
the same grade and you could compare your biology test
with my biology test. You know, it's just not the way.
Not everybody's taking the same biology test anymore. And you know,
we've all had different paths through life and are doing
(13:08):
different things. So I mean, you really can't compare two
different lives, but we do. So Usually when people say
that they're behind, they feel like they're behind somebody or
some ideal that they had. But you know, a lot
of what I do is I like to say that
education is an intervention, and so writing books and talking
on podcasts you kind of get the real information out there.
(13:31):
And you know, I remind people, well, let's look at,
you know, the average age of some of these milestones.
You know, in the US anyway, average age of marriage
is like twenty nine, fir his kid is maybe thirty,
home ownership is thirty five, and these are just averages.
So the more career driven or educated you are, these
(13:52):
things can often happen even later. Because you're spending more
time in school. So you know, I think most of
the clients that I have aren't behind, but I think
they're worried that they will be, because it's these are
such long form projects and you can't see, like I'm
halfway there. You know that you don't know right that
(14:14):
you don't know that you may meet a partner in
two years, but you can't really know for sure. So
I think they worry that ultimately they're not going to
get there.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
And it's interesting because I think that at the root
of that is again that uncertainty, that instability of like
it just feels uncomfortable to not know, to not like that.
In that lack of knowing, it's like such a capacity
to catastrophize. I think when you don't have all the information.
(14:45):
I know you talk about this in your new book,
like there's such an opportunity there to make up your
own answers, to feel like everything that could go wrong
will go wrong because you haven't seen the alternative yet,
because do you have no real conception of what it
will mean to meet the love of your life maybe tomorrow,
(15:05):
to one day wake up and be in your own
home and be super happy and not be dealing with
work drama, friend drama, anything like that. And I just
feel like, how do we become comfortable with the in between,
with the period between kind of dreaming and realizing, where
there is a lot of uh yeah, just unknown, a
(15:27):
lot of blank spaces for us to seemingly feel.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Yeah, well, I love it that you mentioned catastrophic thinking.
So as you mentioned to have a new book out,
most people have read or who are listening to your
podcast or probably read The Defining Decade, I've got a
new one coming out called The twenty something Treatment, and
it's really age specific mental health. It's like personalized medicine,
twenty something mental health. And one thing I address is
(15:54):
it's been a chapter called how to Think, but it's
really about catastrophic thinking. So when you're face with uncertainty,
the brain's number one go to is catastrophic thinking. And
it's really similar to the brain interpreting uncertainty is danger. Right,
It's like, oh my gosh, I'm never going to be happy,
I'm never going to find anyone, I'm never going to
make friends. You know what if I die broken alone
(16:17):
that it's it's going to catastrophize and imagine the worst,
and again that's your brain, you know, trying to protect you,
but it's you know, that's a lot to a lot
of kind of catastrophizing in a ten year period in
your twenties. So we really have to work on shifting
from that sort of what if mindset, you know, what
(16:40):
if I never figure it out? What if my life
goes sideways to what is or what else? And we
can talk about that, just kind of shifting from fears
to facts, or from from fears to flexibility, so that
we can, you know, not just kind of stay stuck
in the fears of what if stuff never works out?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah, Like, can we talk about it? Because I read
so your team kindly sent me a manuscript of your book,
and I was I devout. It was amazing. I was like,
oh great, I feel so lucky. But that was the
thing that really stood out to me, was this concept
of the what is or the what else? Because I
have not heard of that before, and it does feel
(17:23):
like something that is very like just like one of
those strategies where you're like, wow, how come no one
ever said this? Like shifting it from like because I'm
such a what if thinker and I'm a catastrophizer. I'm
I'm a naturally very anxious person, and I always think like, oh,
but what if they don't like me? What if like
everything that I've built gets taken away? What if tomorrow
(17:45):
I wake up and every single member of my family
has died in a plain accident. Whatever. It's like always
that and I and I have found it very hard
to break out of that thinking. Sometimes that feels like
once my brain is set or on the worst case scenario,
there is nothing to disprove it. So can you explain this?
What else? And what is the Yeah?
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Yeah, actually I'll use the example you did it earlier.
I mean you weren't quite catastrophizing, but you said, I
worry that my life is just going to get worse
from here. Yeah, you know when you said that because
I've said, well, the data shows that probably your life's
going to get better, but you you kind of said, well,
but what if it gets worse, which is of course
what you know, twenty something brain is going to do catastrophizing,
(18:36):
So so that's your what if that's the fear? What
if my life actually gets worse instead of better? I mean,
of course that would be everybody's fear, so shifting to
what is is actually kind of what I did with
you about that of like, well, let mean, let's look
at the facts. Let's look at the data. You actually
said you've built a pretty good life now in your twenties, right.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yeah, I know I have. It's pretty good. I'm pretty happy.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Okay. So the facts are that you have. I don't
know all the details of your life and not trying
to get you to reveal that to me on the podcast,
but it sounds like the facts are you've managed to
create something good even in your twenties, which is very challenging.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Yeah? And I just think all those other things like
good friends, good family, I've got a long term partner
that I love. It just feels like I've ticked everything
off a little bit.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Okay, So the facts are you did all that. So
why would you completely like go sideways in your thirties
and like lose the all the sort of the skills
and the know how and the work you put into that.
Why would that just go away?
Speaker 2 (19:46):
It's so interesting because you're saying it to me, and
I can literally feel like irrational thoughts in my brain
not be able to answer that question. But I think
the thing I always come back to is this like
sense of fate. This like I think it's like a
huge impost syndrome thing that I think a lot of
us in our twenties have where it's like, oh, I
got all this just because I'm lucky, and luck runs out,
(20:08):
so you're putting it in some bigger things hands rather
than your own and like rather than think about your
own skills and your own effort and your own labor.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Right, So I'm saying I look at your life and
a little I know about it so far, and I don't.
I mean, my saying about luck is a wise man
makes his own luck. So I would assume that most
of what you have you've worked for a lot of that,
and there's probably some luck involved, but probably even more
sort of work or intentionality or care in cultivating that.
(20:42):
So I would assume for the facts, well you're going
to you're not going to know less about that in
your thirties. You would keep doing that. So that's kind
of shifting from Okay, my brain gets going on the fears.
But what if I focus on some facts and I
give myself credit for what is not what if, But
what is the other thing to do? Because sometimes people
(21:04):
are like, oh, I don't have any facts, I don't
know anything. You know, this is could go either way,
and so you think about the what else? So what
else could I tell myself? Besides everything is going to
go sideways, my life's gonna get worse. I mean, that's well,
that's one possibility. What's another possibility? What else could you
be saying?
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah, it's interesting because it's like it could stay the same,
in which case, speaking from experience, that would be great,
or it could get better. And I feel like that's
a really nice thought I.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Have, right, So just letting your brain kind of have
these play with these different possibilities of Okay, you've got
your what ifs, but you've also got your what is
and you've got your what else? None of that like
I know, I you know, this is not my first
rodeo talking to Twist.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
On their way.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
No, none of that gets rid of the what if.
But it does make your brain hold some other possibilities besides,
like I am sure my life is going to be awful,
and like we can't. You know, sometimes clients will say, well,
help me stop doing that. I want to stop doing that.
You will never stop doing that because evolutionarily, your brain
(22:17):
needs to go like, oh my gosh, what if I
mean it needs to do that. But I will say,
as you get older and you have a more grounded
sense of the what is it, does it But then
you're like, oh, whatever, it's fine, or I'll figure it out,
or I've figured this out five times before I can
figure it out another couple of times, like that actually
(22:38):
does happen. You have more what is.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
I really like hearing that I honestly what you said.
Then the last point you made of you figure this
out a couple of like five or six or whatever
twelve times you've already you've done it before that it
just becomes like such a skill set rather than feeling that.
In our twenties, you know, so many of the big
problems of like oh my god, I didn't pay my taxes,
(23:02):
or like I don't know what I'm doing. I just
got fired, or somebody just broke up with me, or oh,
a friend of mine, like I'm feeling lonely. That's a
big one, Like I'm feeling lonely. I'm always going to
feel this way. It's like the first time that we
really truly experienced that, especially because of how many major
you know, you talked about adult development, and part of
(23:25):
that is like social context, right, you know, you shift
from a very structured schooling environment to being on your
own and people moving everywhere and work kind of being
the center of your life. And I remember to include
like a personal story about this. I used to have
such a problem with loneliness when I was in my
(23:46):
early twenties, when I was younger, and anytime I felt lonely,
I was like, oh my god, this feeling is never
going to go away. This is my life now. I'm
a lonely person. And it was only until probably a
few months ago and I was traveling and I was like,
oh my god, it happens every time I'm away from home.
I'm like, I'm a lonely person. This feeling's never going
to go away. That I went back and was like
(24:09):
looking through old journals of mine, being like, this is
a pretty routine experience for me at this point, Like
it's just like on a regular cycle. This is like
every six months, I'm having this feeling. Maybe I should
learn that actually it does go away. So I really
like that, what else? And then also what is like
I do have the skill kind of mentality.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
Yes, and you know, I mean you said a lot
of really important things and they're one is what you
were talking about. There are just so many firsts in
your twenties. You don't have a lot of what is
or data points or you know, maybe you can draw
back on, well I got through this at you know,
in school or a camp or in sports or whatever.
(24:49):
But you know, there's so many firsts. I think people
feel like the first time they get laid off, you
know their lives are over. But you know after well,
here's a factoid for you. Your average tw something's gonna have
nine jobs by the age of thirty five. So by
the time you're on job, you know, three or four six,
you realize, okay, whatever, I'll get another job. I mean,
(25:10):
you know, that's just that's what will happen. Or after
you've had your heart broken three times, it still hurts
because that's how the attachment system works, but you know
you will survive it and you know, maybe even feel
better and maybe and meet someone who's better suited for you.
So you have more data points as you go along.
(25:30):
And that's just one thing that's really hard in your twenties.
It's part of the uncertainty is there aren't a lot
of data points to say, I see what this is.
I've gotten through it before, I'll get through it again.
But you're accruing those now. So that's sort of what's
happening with all these firsts and seconds and thirds as
your brain is learning Okay, I can do this.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
I'm literally listening to what you were just saying, being like,
oh my god, yeah, that's checking a lot of boxes
in my brain, especially the heart break one as well. Love.
You just feel it so deeply. I'm sure. I don't know.
I'm not in my thirties or forties, but in your twenties,
I remember, like it's not that the breakups have gotten easier,
(26:12):
it's just that there is a sense of like that
that they will end. In a way, it's like, Okay,
you know I've done this before. I kind of have
like a toolkit almost of like this is how long
this is probably gonna last. These this is the first month,
this is the second month, this is month six, like
this is this is a routine now. Whereas I think,
(26:33):
especially like when I was like twenty or twenty one,
like that was world ending to me.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Oh, yeah, of course it's been there are yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Been there, done that.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
I mean, it's it's I've been there, done that more
than once. But you know, I think many twenty somethings
don't know that breakups are the kind of leading precursor
to feeling depressed in your twenties. I mean, as would
make perfect sense or you know, like a big attachment loss,
and so people often feel quite depressed after a breakup.
(27:06):
And you know, one thing I work with my clients
on is that it does not mean that you're abnormal
or disordered or sick. It actually means your your heart
is working, your attachment system is working. If you really
cared about someone and really loved someone and maybe even
envisioned to future with them, you should be super sad
if it doesn't work out. And I don't expect that
(27:27):
to lift in two weeks. I would be kind of
worried if somebody was like whatever, easy come, easy go
after you know what felt like a significant relationship to them. So,
you know, some of the struggles that twenty somethings go through,
actually a lot of them anxiety at work or sadness
after a breakup. This is normal developmental struggle. That actually
(27:51):
shows that your brain and your heart are working properly.
They're not indications that there's something wrong with you. If
you're feeling stressed or anxious about work, or you're feeling
sad about a breakup, that's what I would expect and
hope in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
So actually, I want to focus on this a little
bit more because there's an example you give in the book,
and I'm am I going to spoil it. I don't know,
maybe it's up to you for it, go for it.
And I've got her name or their name, but because
of a breakup, she was like, oh, I have an
insecure attachment style. I have a disorganized attachment style. Now,
(28:30):
that is something that I see all the time. And
you know, I think it's like sixty five seventy percent
of us have a secure attachment style. But by the
way that we are diagnosing ourselves using TikTok videos and
social media, you would think that all of us are
like anxious avoiding it, right, anxious ambivalentus.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
We talk about that a little bit more because it's
one of my little secret like pet Peeves, when it
comes to like online psychology, that.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
I mean, other people diagnosing themselves with that.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah. Yeah, people late, it's.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
It's having a moment.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
I'll have people come in new clients and they'll say,
you know, I'm getting to know them, well, I have
an insecure attachment style. I'm like, oh, I don't know,
not so sure. So so there's a big difference between
having an anxious attachment style and just feeling anxious, or
having a bit insecure attachment style and just feeling insecure.
(29:27):
And I would say that the vast majority of twenty
somethings that I work with there, they don't have an
insecure attachment style. They're they're in a state of insecurity.
So an attachment style is something that you're saying, this
is diagnostic and character logical and true of me across
all situations, all relationships, all aspects of my life, all
(29:52):
ages and stages. No, like, very few twenty somethings of
mine would say, yeah, I don't. I'm not secure with friends,
I'm not secure with my family. I'm not secure with anybody,
you know, partners, boyfriends, girlfriends. I mean, that's when you
have an insecure attachment style. And if it's been that way,
(30:13):
consistently across time and across situations. Most twenty somethings for
reasons we've already gotten into because of all the uncertainty.
They're just feeling insecure. You know, they don't know who
their friends are, they don't know if somebody likes them,
they don't know if this person wants to go out
with them, they don't know if this new relationship is
going to work or not. That's just insecurity. That's uncertainty.
(30:35):
That is not having an insecure attachment style. And I
don't love for twenty somethings to you know, diagnose themselves,
not just because they're often not accurate, but they can
kind of wrap their identities around the sense of abnormality. See,
I have an insecure attachment style, and if only I
(30:57):
had a secure attachment style, maybe this relationship with work
or someone would want to be with me. And that's
usually not okay. So it's just normal to feel nervous
and worried and anxious about whether a new relationship is
going to last, or about you know, whether someone's going
to text you back. That's normal. That's not like an
(31:19):
abnormal attachment style.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Yeah, I really like hearing that. Actually because I feel
like there's definitely been points in my life right I've
thought that that was who I was, And I really
understand what you mean whereby we get really invested in
these things being who we are, that anything that contradicts
that that is us we deny and we suppress, when
(31:41):
actually it might be like the gateway too much more
open and better life. So one of the other big
things about our twenties, and it's about feeling behind, but
it's also about dealing with uncertainty, is like, how do
I know that I'm making the right decisions. I feel
(32:03):
like we have so many options of career pathways and
people we could date, and cities we could live in.
Something you talk about in the first book, though, that
I think really applies here is this concept of sliding
versus deciding. Can you talk us through that a little
bit more?
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Yeah, So, the sliding versus deciding is a concept. I mean,
I've popularized it putting it in my book, but it's
research by Scott Stanley really about living together, but it
could apply to anything. But it's this sense of like,
do we sort of slide into relationships because it happens,
it's convenient, it's gradual. We didn't really think about it,
(32:45):
or do we really actively decide this is the right
person for me, I want to make this commitment, or
this is the right job. I'm going to stay here
another year for these very good reasons. And I think
a lot of times, we know, what with relationships, whether
you're living with someone or even at work, people can
(33:07):
kind of slide into sticking around in something because they're
already there. Well, it's just easier to stay another year
than to imagine starting over again, So I'll just do
another year, And so we can sort of slide into
living with people, being in relationships with people longer than
maybe we should be, staying in jobs longer than maybe
(33:29):
it's really serving us, because it's the sort of the
easier path. It's just something we can slide into rather
than really saying this is you know, given all choices,
this would be the best one for me.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
So I guess that's leads to my next question is
how do we know which one is the best one
for us?
Speaker 3 (33:49):
Because I feel, well, that is a good question. I
actually think sometimes people slide because they don't want to
face the fact that that can't totally be answered. So
in my In my book coming Out you Know any Minute,
the twenty something Treatment, I talk about what are called
large world problems and large world problems or problems where
(34:12):
all the options and the consequences and the outcomes can't
be modeled. So like if you know, small world problem
is you throw dice and you can, you know, bet
on the chances of getting a three. You know how
likely that is, you know, to get it, not get it.
You can even bet some amount to win or lose.
Those are small world problems. Large world problems are choosing
(34:33):
a city, or a partner or a roommate, or a
college or a job, or how many kids to have.
I mean, it's all those problems where you can't model
all the options, you can't know all the consequences, so
you really you're making a decision amidst uncertainty, not amidst
you know, known factors. So you know, so many people
(34:57):
come to me because they want to know is it
right to stay with this person or to break up?
Or should I take this job or should I take
that job? And there is no I mean, we could
talk it to death. You can try to, you know,
do an algorithm. You could go see a fortune teller
and get your cards read and you know, but nobody,
no one can hack that for you. That it's ultimately
(35:21):
really that's what truly a decision is of Okay, I
don't know, I'll never know which one is right or best,
So there's not like a right decision. There's just my decision.
So we kind of try to, you know, make the
most thoughtful, intentional choice that we can. And then I
think you reassess, you know, a year into the job
(35:42):
or a year into the relationship, and do a real
gut check of like, well, how did that choice pan
out for me so far? Am I happy? More happy
than unhappy? What should I be? You know, kind of
paying attention to and then you decide, well do I
sign up for another year of this or do I not?
Speaker 2 (35:58):
That's really interestingly, you do a gut check, how do
you I like some of those questions you said, like
am I happy? Uh? Then I would be without this person,
without this job. What are some of the other ways
that we can maybe sense dissatisfactional sense that there might
there might be time to look for something that's better
(36:19):
for us?
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Mm hmm. I often ask clients is there something that
you're doing that you hope you're not doing in five years,
or is there something about this relationship that you hope
is not the way it is in five years. And
if they say yes, then it's like, okay, well then
why are we doing it now? How long are we
going to do this now? That usually if people look
(36:40):
out five years, like oh yeah, I definitely don't want
to be in this dead in relationship in five years. Okay,
well why are we here now? And how much longer
are we going to hang out? Or the same goes
for the job, or gosh, I hope my boyfriend and
I aren't still having conflict about cooking or whatever in
five years, Well, then let's fix it this here.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
That's I think about that a lot. I will say
I'm in a great relationship. There's no I'm I've done
the questions and they've never they've always turned. But I do.
In previous relationships, I remember being like, I want to
break up with this person, but I don't, but being like,
let me just wait six months because I was like
(37:21):
delaying the pain. I was delaying the inedible. And then
I had a friend say to me and she was like, well,
wouldn't you rather be six months into it in six
months time rather than starting in six months time.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
And she was like, what good for her?
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Yeah? I was like, oh wow, Like you're so she's
like the time is going to pass anyways, Like you're
going to get to the point, Like she's like, you're
going to have to break up with this person. It's
just whether you start the process now and then in
six months time give me like, oh, thank gosh, I've
done that already, or whether you wait and you delay it.
And it's like it's emotional procrastination where you understand, Yeah,
(38:00):
it's like you understand that there's going to be a
lot of fallout emotionally and mentally from a big decision,
So why not just wait? Why not just why not
just make that a future you problem? And you don't
realize that that future you is going to be there
pretty quick.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Like.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Yeah, honestly. And that's like and I feel like it's
interesting because I said this to some I always say
this on the show, like you can reverse one hundred percent,
Like the only decisions you can't reverse the ones that
you didn't make. So I think, you know, it's like, oh,
I guess having children, you can't really reverse that decision.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
But well you can always adopt.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Yeah, yeah, that's true. But it's like, especially when it
comes to career risks and career risks and wanting to
move to a new place, wanting to travel, you know,
there is so much regret in in action, probably more
regret then taking action because at least again we're going
to return to what you were saying before, Like when
(39:05):
you actually do something about a desire or an urge
you have, you're not faced with the what if being
what if I'd done that righting right?
Speaker 3 (39:13):
And you learn, you learn something. But you know, I
think sometimes this isn't exactly what you're talking about. But
oftentimes twenty somethings will delay decisions so that they you know,
sort of like keep all their options open so they
don't make a decision, so nothing is like it's like
they're they think they're stopping time. I mean, they're not
(39:35):
stopping time. And not making decisions is a decision. So
you're deciding, you know, not to break up with that partner,
you know, you were sort of not making a decision
on it. That's a decision. You were deciding to sink
another six months into a relationship that you were sort
of done with Yeah, and your friend was right to say, like, shoot,
(39:56):
you could be six months through the breakup at this point, so.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
Definitely that's good. And I did stay for another six
months there I probably should have listened to but you know, well,
we absolutely But I like that idea of like you
feel like you're buying yourself time, but like the time
is still pausing, right, You're just.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
It's still passing. I mean, I think the thing with
it's what's so different about being an adult versus sort
of being in school is you know, there's no syllabus,
there's no I mean, this gets back to am I behind.
There's no syllabus, there's no schedule that you have to meet.
The grading system is whatever you decide it is depends
(40:36):
on your value system and what you're trying to achieve,
not what other people are saying you should do or
what the person sitting next to you is doing. And
you know that means there aren't any right or wrong answers.
There are just your answers, which seems kind of like
an annoying non answer, but it's actually really liberating when
(40:57):
you when you really lean into that of that's you know,
I don't have to worry about whether I'm doing it
right or wrong, or on time or ahead or behind whatever.
None of that really exists. It's it's just it's your life,
your choices, and you're going to make most of these
choices more than once. And I mean even within one
relationship that you know may last your whole life. Every
(41:19):
day you're choosing how's that relationship going to go today?
Or what am I going to work on or what's
what conversation am I going to have with my partner
to make it better. That we're constantly able to sort
of improve the choices that we make.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
I like that as well. It's like not just a
it's not just one decision, it's an active choice like
throughout your life to be there, right to stay there,
whether that's a relationship with job, a city. So I've
got one final question for.
Speaker 3 (41:48):
You, Okay, all right, I'm ready.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Yeah. I don't know that's very anticlimacticve of me, although
I do feel like you have a really good answer
to this. What do you think of some expectations that
we should like go of in our twenties that would
make us happier?
Speaker 3 (42:04):
You know, I feel like you've done a really good
job of focusing on that today. I mean, I feel
like the biggest expectation that people need to let go
of is that their twenties are going to be the
best years of their lives. And we talked about this,
but they're probably not going to be, and that's really
really good news. That's a huge bummer if the best
(42:25):
years of your lives or your twenties and then the
rest of your life is all downhill. You don't want that,
it's not probably going to happen, but you know, kind
of feeling like everything's supposed to be amazing in your
twenties is really sort of a recipe for heartbreak because
it's a very challenging time. So I would say, bad
expectation that everything's going to be great and or you're
(42:48):
going to have everything figured out by thirty. I talk
a lot, really in both books about there's this cool
study I won't get in the weeds about at least
it says eighty It says eighty percent of life's most
defining moments take place by age thirty five. That is true. However,
(43:08):
you know most of those defining moments are you know,
happened in fits and starts, so I actually posted something
on my Instagram the other day. It was a picture
of me at thirty five, pregnant with my first child
and getting my PhD, my diploma, and that was thirty five,
and I was joking like, oo if I got these
two in right under the wire. But when you follow
(43:32):
them backwards, both of those projects started earlier. You know,
I started studying to get into grad school, you know,
in the middle of my twenties. I bumped into my
partner for the first time in my mid twenties, and
then met them again in my late twenties, and then
we got married after that. So all so, you know,
(43:52):
you don't really know like all these defining moments. They're
probably going to happen by the time you're thirty five,
and some of them may be happening in small pieces now.
You just don't know it. So the idea that everything's
going to be done by thirty is ridiculous. Don't stress,
But you might have started most of these things. You
just don't get to see the fruits of your labor
(44:12):
quite yet.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Wow. I really like that outlook, and it just makes
things feel like very exciting and surprising.
Speaker 3 (44:21):
Yeah, life is exciting and surprising and want you want.
I mean, I want your twenties to be awesome, but
I also want your thirties and forties and fifties to
be awesome. And I think if you lay the groundwork
for that, then life really does get better. I mean,
why would it not.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
What a positive way to finish. Thank you so much
for this little little pleasure. Now I want to quickly say,
you have just joined Instagram and everything I did. Yeah,
and you've done your first little like you've dipped your
toes into social media.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
I have. I have.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:54):
That's it's funny because I was off social media. I mean,
to be an author, to be sort of out there,
I was off social media more than you would expect.
I didn't have an Instagram. I had a very inactive
Twitter account. That was it. Whatever. I was just sort
of off of it. And I think part of it
(45:16):
was I was focused on writing books. You know, I
have clients, and you know, I don't know how you feel,
but I think a lot of clients maybe don't want
to bump into their therapist on social media.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
I know. But the same advice that gave you like
to everyone right right.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
So for me, it was more of you know, I'm
gonna kind of you know, lie low and write books
and try to reach people that way, which is super
important to me because you know, and good therapy is
not accessible and affordable not only to everybody, but really
not to most people. So part of writing books is
(45:56):
about getting that out there. But anyway, as social media
has evolved, and as I have been convinced that hello,
that is where people get their education and their information
and their news now, then if I want to help people,
that's where I need to be. Also that I know
y'all don't want to see me dance or put on makeup.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
Brain that well, actually.
Speaker 3 (46:21):
No, that's not true. But you know now that it
feels like obviously this is where a lot of people
are getting, you know, good information, or they could be
getting better information, and so I wanted to be a
part of that of the better information.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
I really really like that because I feel like you
have a lot to contribute. There's lots of misinformation out there,
and it's nice to have people online who have degrees
have like have done research on this stuff to really
set the fact straight. So, well, where can people follow you?
What's your Instagram name?
Speaker 3 (46:56):
Well, I'm Brand News to please come out and full
force because I have like two followers, but I'm at
doctor meg Jay on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, pretty much anywhere
where people would be. I'm doctor meg Jay is the
handle and I've just recently joined. So there's, you know,
(47:17):
some stuff starting to put some videos up. But the idea,
especially with the twenty something treatment coming out, is to
get the content out because, like you said, there's a
lot of misinformation and I would love to you know,
kind of get it on that conversation and help people out.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
Oh my gosh. Well, I'm super excited and I'm super
excited for people to get their hands on your book.
I'm going to leave a preyo to link in the
description of this episode and a link to The Defining Decade.
If you haven't read that book and you are a
fan of this podcast, what are you doing? They go,
so had and.
Speaker 3 (47:54):
Yell right exactly.
Speaker 2 (47:56):
It's funny. I hadn't even read it before I started
the podcast, and then I started the show and I
was like, oh my gosh, like this is so aligned,
So I will yeah, I will leave a link to
both of those. As always, if you enjoyed this episode,
please feel free to leave a five star review on
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now. Share
it with a friend if you think that they would
(48:18):
enjoy this they would get something out of this conversation.
I definitely did. And if you have an episode suggestion,
please feel free to send it to me at that
Psychology podcast and you could follow me at Gemma Spake
on Instagram for some more behind the scenes content. We
will be back next week with another episode. Until then,
stay safe and we will see you soon.
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
the podcast where we talk through some of the big
life changes and transitions of our twenties and what.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
They mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to
the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners.
Wherever you are in the world, it is so great
to have you here. Back for another episode, back for
another topic, and today, back for another guest episode. I
(00:40):
love doing these every now and again, and I'm super
selective with the people that I bring on because I
want them to really have something to say about the
twenty something experience, about what it means to be, you know,
growing up during this time and at this age and
during this decade. And I feel like one of the
main experiences a lot of us have, one of the
(01:02):
universal twenty something experiences, is feeling incredibly behind and incredibly lost.
And today we are bringing on someone who has spoken
a lot about this, who has written numerous books about
this experience. Dr Meg Jay. Thank you so much for
joining us.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
It's my pleasure. Jima, I'm so glad to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
So if you don't know who make is, you've definitely
heard of her work. She is the author of The
Defining Decade, one of my all time favorite pieces of nonfiction.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Thank you. Yeah, So I am a development While I
was saying, I love the title of your podcast, because
that's my whole life. I'm a developmental clinical psychologist, and
I specialize in twenty somethings, which is a thing. It
wasn't a thing twenty years ago when I started, which
we could discuss that later too, But you know, it's
a very unique developmental moment. It has its own unique challenges,
(01:57):
its own unique solutions, and so that's what you know,
all my days and all my books are about.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
So what exactly drew you to really thinking about people
in their twenties? I think it was a natural inclination
for me. I started this podcast as someone in their twenties.
I'm still in my twenties. What was the fascination for
you with this, with this decade?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Yeah, so, I believe it or not. I have been
specializing in twenty somethings for twenty five years, so maybe
for like, roughly your full life so far. And so
when I started doing that, I was actually in graduate
school at UC Berkeley. I was getting a degree in
clinical psychology, and I was studying something called adult development.
(02:40):
And when you say that to people, they're like, what's
adult development? I thought adults were already developed. And you know,
adult development is if you look at a twenty year
old and you look at a hundred year old. Adult
development is all the stuff that happens from twenty to
one hundred. But when I started studying adult development, most
of what was done there is about you know, midlife
(03:01):
crises or you know, the elderly, or you know, maybe
it was you know, the child rearing years. But there
really hadn't been much of anything done on the twenties.
And we can talk about this more in a minute,
but it had been somewhat recent that the twenties were
sort of their own developmental moment. That I mean, they're really,
if you think about it, they're nothing like the teen years.
(03:24):
They're not that like the thirty something years and beyond.
They're really their own thing. So I was sort of
discovering this, along with a lot of research about all
the amazing developmental things that are happening in our twenties.
There's more change between twenty and thirty than any other
decade in adulthoods and I was living in a college town, right,
so I was inundated with young adults and twenty somethings
(03:47):
who were sort of, you know, my first clients in
guinea pigs and all this. So it just and I
had just finished my twenties, so it just felt like
there was so much there. It was really where all
the action is, and no one was focusing specifically on
that space. And one of the ways I figured that
out was a lot of people would come to my
(04:07):
office and ask the same questions. I would tell them
the same things, and I thought, you know, I need
to be able to recommend a book for people. So
I went into the bookstore looking for something back when
people did that, and there was nothing. It was like
the girlfriend's got dear twenties, you know, maybe there was
just some couple of fluff projects out there. So I thought, wow,
(04:29):
this is you know, an untapped need that there's this
period of time which is very unique and people aren't
really talking about it and focusing on and specializing it.
So I started doing that and I have never looked back.
I've never wanted to do anything else. It is just,
to me, the most important decade of life. It's also
super difficult, which we can talk about. But I love it.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
It's so funny. You was saying, like you've been doing
this for twenty five years. It's like your career is
a twenty something year old.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Yes, yes, exactly, Yes, it's all about it's all about
that decade, one way or the other.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
So you said something in there and you were like,
it's the most formative decade, which I really agree, but
it's also the most difficult. Like we it really exists
in this vacuum between adolescents and what I sometimes refer
to as like real adulthood, like in your thirties, when
all the things that you thought, you know, you would
(05:30):
experience as an adult, maybe getting married, having children, buying
a home, they kind of for a lot of us
are happening a lot later. What do you think creates
this real difficulty for a lot of us during this period.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Well, it's really that is that you know, you're absolutely right,
adult milestones are now you know, in about adult milestones,
I mean, you know, figuring out your job and finding
a partner, picking a city, you know, maybe getting a home,
maybe having a kid, like that's all sort of thirty
than to twenty now, and so in the twenties, it's
just this big, wide open period of uncertainty. There's a
(06:06):
lot more to sort of worry about than there is
to hold on to. The brain doesn't like that, so
your mental health does not like that, and so it
makes the twenties. You know, from where I'm standing, it's
an amazing opportunity to work with people before they've made
all their biggest decisions and to help them do that
more thoughtfully, more productively, more happily. But it's from the
(06:33):
other side of the room. The twenty something that I'm
work with is living with more uncertainty than they will
really at any other time of life. And that's what
makes the twenties so hard, is that it's probably the
only time of life where you'll wake up in the
morning and you'd think, gosh, you know, I don't really
know where I'll live in five years, or if anyone's
gonna love me, or if I could pay my bills,
or where I'm going to work, or if I could
be happy. And that's really really hard. And I don't
(06:55):
think we talk enough about how hard all that uncertainty is.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Well, let's talk about it now. Why is it that
this uncertainty is so scary for us? Like, how does
that manifest in maybe our behavior is even now mental
health the patents that you see in twenty somethings.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Yeah, well, I'll geek out briefly on brain stuff. But
but the brain interprets uncertainty as danger. And if you
think about this evolutionarily, this makes sense. Like if you
don't know what's around in the corner, you're going to assume,
you know, it's a beyor not, you know, it's a
little bunny rabbit, and things are fine. That's how we
(07:36):
survive that. Your brain is wired to keep you alive,
not make you happy. So when there's uncertainty, we're going
to interpret it as danger. We're going to feel stressed.
We're going to feel anxious. Some people get sort of
avoidant and depressed. Other people reach for substances or you know,
whatever they do to kind of manage that stress around. Yikes,
(07:56):
I don't know what's about to happen in my life.
So it's not something the brain likes very much. But
in the twenty first century, it's this sort of staggering
amount of uncertainty that twenty somethings live with I mean
they live with it day in and day out for five, ten,
fifteen years, and so that really takes a toll on
(08:18):
people's well being, on their mental health. Life does get better,
and we can talk about that too, But the twenties
are tough, and I think we kind of maybe imagine
are told that they're going to be this, you know,
best years of our lives, but they're probably not, and
you don't even want them to be. You want life
to get better as you go.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
I say that a lot. Actually, I was saying it
to someone before. Our twenties are when you have been
probably the least amount of money you will ever be making, right.
Your relationships are like up in the air. Everything feels
so uncertain, you'll probably quite emotionally vulnerable. You don't probably
like your job that much, and there is such an
(09:02):
expectation of like, these are your best years. These are
like you better like really hold on to them because
once they're going, like they're going to be the source
of all your nostalgia, all your memories. And I'm just like,
is that really as good as it's going to be?
Speaker 3 (09:16):
I mean, let's hope not. No. I mean that's what
I say to my clients. If your twenties turn out
to be the best years of your life, something has
gone terribly wrong, because empirically we know that. Actually it
may be hard to imagine as a twenty something, but
life does get thirty somethings or happier than twenty somethings,
And even old forty somethings are happier than thirty somethings.
(09:39):
Even the fifty somethings are happier. I mean it, Actually,
people do become happier, more grounded, Their relationships are better,
they have purpose, they have meaning, they have sort of
that emotional stability that life security. So life really does
get better. I'm not really sure how this kind of
myth keeps perpetuating that your twenties are going to be amazing.
(10:00):
I mean, there's some fun, cool stuff that goes on,
but they're very hard and all those things you mentioned of,
like you're broke, you're moving to a new city, don't
have friends, new jobs, stressful, you know your boss is
you know, stressing you out, et cetera. That's real, and
(10:20):
you know, the twenties are actually, I think, well for
most people, maybe more difficult than they are.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Sometimes that makes me hearing you say that, because I
I'm such an optimistic person. Right so, right now, I'm like,
my life is like the best it's ever going to be.
And so for some reason, when people are like, oh,
it gets better at thirty, it gets better at forty,
I'm like, but what if it can't get any better,
so it has to get worse? Like what if I've
got the inverse, like what if this is? What if
(10:49):
I'm the exception like it?
Speaker 3 (10:51):
But then I'm like, yeah, yeah, I find that hard
to believe because the reason life gets better, it's not
like just this random growth curve you're on. It gets
better because you as a twenty something whatever cool stuff
you've built that you're super psyched about. And I'm very
happy to hear that you feel like you have a
great life. You're going to keep doing that. So you're
(11:13):
going to build you know, there'll be more relationships or
deeper relationships, or your career is going to just get
even better, or your financial security will be better. And
I mean that's sort of why it happens, is that people,
I mean, there's generally an upward trajectory in life, and
of course nobody knows what's going to happen tomorrow, you know,
with the big stuff, but you know, in terms of
(11:34):
people's individual lives. I mean, I love it if you
feel like you've already built a lot of good stuff
in your twenties because you're just going to keep building
on that.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
That's so so reinforcing to hear. The other thing that
I that actually a lot of people, this is what
I really want to talk about, is like feeling like
there is almost it's a bit of a race, and
feeling like it's a race to find the one. It's
a race to buy a house, it's a race to
(12:06):
have it all figured out. Why do you think so
many of us feel this sense of just being behind
during this decade? And what are we actually behind? Like
behind what?
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Right? Well, that would be my question against clients. Do
say but I'm behind, And I say behind?
Speaker 1 (12:23):
What?
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Behind? Who?
Speaker 1 (12:25):
You know?
Speaker 3 (12:25):
If you say behind what, there's usually a who, Well,
so and so has such and such and I don't
have that, Or well my parents had X, Y and
Z when they were my age, and I don't have that.
So there's usually some person or some idea that someone's
comparing themselves to. But kind of the maybe maddening, But
(12:46):
a truly wonderful thing about your twenties and beyond is
you can't there's just so many different paths. You can't compare.
Like when you were in school and everyone was in
the same grade and you could compare your biology test
with my biology test. You know, it's just not the way.
Not everybody's taking the same biology test anymore. And you know,
we've all had different paths through life and are doing
(13:08):
different things. So I mean, you really can't compare two
different lives, but we do. So Usually when people say
that they're behind, they feel like they're behind somebody or
some ideal that they had. But you know, a lot
of what I do is I like to say that
education is an intervention, and so writing books and talking
on podcasts you kind of get the real information out there.
(13:31):
And you know, I remind people, well, let's look at,
you know, the average age of some of these milestones.
You know, in the US anyway, average age of marriage
is like twenty nine, fir his kid is maybe thirty,
home ownership is thirty five, and these are just averages.
So the more career driven or educated you are, these
(13:52):
things can often happen even later. Because you're spending more
time in school. So you know, I think most of
the clients that I have aren't behind, but I think
they're worried that they will be, because it's these are
such long form projects and you can't see, like I'm
halfway there. You know that you don't know right that
(14:14):
you don't know that you may meet a partner in
two years, but you can't really know for sure. So
I think they worry that ultimately they're not going to
get there.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
And it's interesting because I think that at the root
of that is again that uncertainty, that instability of like
it just feels uncomfortable to not know, to not like that.
In that lack of knowing, it's like such a capacity
to catastrophize. I think when you don't have all the information.
(14:45):
I know you talk about this in your new book,
like there's such an opportunity there to make up your
own answers, to feel like everything that could go wrong
will go wrong because you haven't seen the alternative yet,
because do you have no real conception of what it
will mean to meet the love of your life maybe tomorrow,
(15:05):
to one day wake up and be in your own
home and be super happy and not be dealing with
work drama, friend drama, anything like that. And I just
feel like, how do we become comfortable with the in between,
with the period between kind of dreaming and realizing, where
there is a lot of uh yeah, just unknown, a
(15:27):
lot of blank spaces for us to seemingly feel.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Yeah, well, I love it that you mentioned catastrophic thinking.
So as you mentioned to have a new book out,
most people have read or who are listening to your
podcast or probably read The Defining Decade, I've got a
new one coming out called The twenty something Treatment, and
it's really age specific mental health. It's like personalized medicine,
twenty something mental health. And one thing I address is
(15:54):
it's been a chapter called how to Think, but it's
really about catastrophic thinking. So when you're face with uncertainty,
the brain's number one go to is catastrophic thinking. And
it's really similar to the brain interpreting uncertainty is danger. Right,
It's like, oh my gosh, I'm never going to be happy,
I'm never going to find anyone, I'm never going to
make friends. You know what if I die broken alone
(16:17):
that it's it's going to catastrophize and imagine the worst,
and again that's your brain, you know, trying to protect you,
but it's you know, that's a lot to a lot
of kind of catastrophizing in a ten year period in
your twenties. So we really have to work on shifting
from that sort of what if mindset, you know, what
(16:40):
if I never figure it out? What if my life
goes sideways to what is or what else? And we
can talk about that, just kind of shifting from fears
to facts, or from from fears to flexibility, so that
we can, you know, not just kind of stay stuck
in the fears of what if stuff never works out?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah, Like, can we talk about it? Because I read
so your team kindly sent me a manuscript of your book,
and I was I devout. It was amazing. I was like,
oh great, I feel so lucky. But that was the
thing that really stood out to me, was this concept
of the what is or the what else? Because I
have not heard of that before, and it does feel
(17:23):
like something that is very like just like one of
those strategies where you're like, wow, how come no one
ever said this? Like shifting it from like because I'm
such a what if thinker and I'm a catastrophizer. I'm
I'm a naturally very anxious person, and I always think like, oh,
but what if they don't like me? What if like
everything that I've built gets taken away? What if tomorrow
(17:45):
I wake up and every single member of my family
has died in a plain accident. Whatever. It's like always
that and I and I have found it very hard
to break out of that thinking. Sometimes that feels like
once my brain is set or on the worst case scenario,
there is nothing to disprove it. So can you explain this?
What else? And what is the Yeah?
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Yeah, actually I'll use the example you did it earlier.
I mean you weren't quite catastrophizing, but you said, I
worry that my life is just going to get worse
from here. Yeah, you know when you said that because
I've said, well, the data shows that probably your life's
going to get better, but you you kind of said, well,
but what if it gets worse, which is of course
what you know, twenty something brain is going to do catastrophizing,
(18:36):
So so that's your what if that's the fear? What
if my life actually gets worse instead of better? I mean,
of course that would be everybody's fear, so shifting to
what is is actually kind of what I did with
you about that of like, well, let mean, let's look
at the facts. Let's look at the data. You actually
said you've built a pretty good life now in your twenties, right.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yeah, I know I have. It's pretty good. I'm pretty happy.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Okay. So the facts are that you have. I don't
know all the details of your life and not trying
to get you to reveal that to me on the podcast,
but it sounds like the facts are you've managed to
create something good even in your twenties, which is very challenging.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Yeah? And I just think all those other things like
good friends, good family, I've got a long term partner
that I love. It just feels like I've ticked everything
off a little bit.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Okay, So the facts are you did all that. So
why would you completely like go sideways in your thirties
and like lose the all the sort of the skills
and the know how and the work you put into that.
Why would that just go away?
Speaker 2 (19:46):
It's so interesting because you're saying it to me, and
I can literally feel like irrational thoughts in my brain
not be able to answer that question. But I think
the thing I always come back to is this like
sense of fate. This like I think it's like a
huge impost syndrome thing that I think a lot of
us in our twenties have where it's like, oh, I
got all this just because I'm lucky, and luck runs out,
(20:08):
so you're putting it in some bigger things hands rather
than your own and like rather than think about your
own skills and your own effort and your own labor.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Right, So I'm saying I look at your life and
a little I know about it so far, and I don't.
I mean, my saying about luck is a wise man
makes his own luck. So I would assume that most
of what you have you've worked for a lot of that,
and there's probably some luck involved, but probably even more
sort of work or intentionality or care in cultivating that.
(20:42):
So I would assume for the facts, well you're going
to you're not going to know less about that in
your thirties. You would keep doing that. So that's kind
of shifting from Okay, my brain gets going on the fears.
But what if I focus on some facts and I
give myself credit for what is not what if, But
what is the other thing to do? Because sometimes people
(21:04):
are like, oh, I don't have any facts, I don't
know anything. You know, this is could go either way,
and so you think about the what else? So what
else could I tell myself? Besides everything is going to
go sideways, my life's gonna get worse. I mean, that's well,
that's one possibility. What's another possibility? What else could you
be saying?
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah, it's interesting because it's like it could stay the same,
in which case, speaking from experience, that would be great,
or it could get better. And I feel like that's
a really nice thought I.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Have, right, So just letting your brain kind of have
these play with these different possibilities of Okay, you've got
your what ifs, but you've also got your what is
and you've got your what else? None of that like
I know, I you know, this is not my first
rodeo talking to Twist.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
On their way.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
No, none of that gets rid of the what if.
But it does make your brain hold some other possibilities besides,
like I am sure my life is going to be awful,
and like we can't. You know, sometimes clients will say, well,
help me stop doing that. I want to stop doing that.
You will never stop doing that because evolutionarily, your brain
(22:17):
needs to go like, oh my gosh, what if I
mean it needs to do that. But I will say,
as you get older and you have a more grounded
sense of the what is it, does it But then
you're like, oh, whatever, it's fine, or I'll figure it out,
or I've figured this out five times before I can
figure it out another couple of times, like that actually
(22:38):
does happen. You have more what is.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
I really like hearing that I honestly what you said.
Then the last point you made of you figure this
out a couple of like five or six or whatever
twelve times you've already you've done it before that it
just becomes like such a skill set rather than feeling that.
In our twenties, you know, so many of the big
problems of like oh my god, I didn't pay my taxes,
(23:02):
or like I don't know what I'm doing. I just
got fired, or somebody just broke up with me, or oh,
a friend of mine, like I'm feeling lonely. That's a
big one, Like I'm feeling lonely. I'm always going to
feel this way. It's like the first time that we
really truly experienced that, especially because of how many major
you know, you talked about adult development, and part of
(23:25):
that is like social context, right, you know, you shift
from a very structured schooling environment to being on your
own and people moving everywhere and work kind of being
the center of your life. And I remember to include
like a personal story about this. I used to have
such a problem with loneliness when I was in my
(23:46):
early twenties, when I was younger, and anytime I felt lonely,
I was like, oh my god, this feeling is never
going to go away. This is my life now. I'm
a lonely person. And it was only until probably a
few months ago and I was traveling and I was like,
oh my god, it happens every time I'm away from home.
I'm like, I'm a lonely person. This feeling's never going
to go away. That I went back and was like
(24:09):
looking through old journals of mine, being like, this is
a pretty routine experience for me at this point, Like
it's just like on a regular cycle. This is like
every six months, I'm having this feeling. Maybe I should
learn that actually it does go away. So I really
like that, what else? And then also what is like
I do have the skill kind of mentality.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
Yes, and you know, I mean you said a lot
of really important things and they're one is what you
were talking about. There are just so many firsts in
your twenties. You don't have a lot of what is
or data points or you know, maybe you can draw
back on, well I got through this at you know,
in school or a camp or in sports or whatever.
(24:49):
But you know, there's so many firsts. I think people
feel like the first time they get laid off, you
know their lives are over. But you know after well,
here's a factoid for you. Your average tw something's gonna have
nine jobs by the age of thirty five. So by
the time you're on job, you know, three or four six,
you realize, okay, whatever, I'll get another job. I mean,
(25:10):
you know, that's just that's what will happen. Or after
you've had your heart broken three times, it still hurts
because that's how the attachment system works, but you know
you will survive it and you know, maybe even feel
better and maybe and meet someone who's better suited for you.
So you have more data points as you go along.
(25:30):
And that's just one thing that's really hard in your twenties.
It's part of the uncertainty is there aren't a lot
of data points to say, I see what this is.
I've gotten through it before, I'll get through it again.
But you're accruing those now. So that's sort of what's
happening with all these firsts and seconds and thirds as
your brain is learning Okay, I can do this.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
I'm literally listening to what you were just saying, being like,
oh my god, yeah, that's checking a lot of boxes
in my brain, especially the heart break one as well. Love.
You just feel it so deeply. I'm sure. I don't know.
I'm not in my thirties or forties, but in your twenties,
I remember, like it's not that the breakups have gotten easier,
(26:12):
it's just that there is a sense of like that
that they will end. In a way, it's like, Okay,
you know I've done this before. I kind of have
like a toolkit almost of like this is how long
this is probably gonna last. These this is the first month,
this is the second month, this is month six, like
this is this is a routine now. Whereas I think,
(26:33):
especially like when I was like twenty or twenty one,
like that was world ending to me.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Oh, yeah, of course it's been there are yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Been there, done that.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
I mean, it's it's I've been there, done that more
than once. But you know, I think many twenty somethings
don't know that breakups are the kind of leading precursor
to feeling depressed in your twenties. I mean, as would
make perfect sense or you know, like a big attachment loss,
and so people often feel quite depressed after a breakup.
(27:06):
And you know, one thing I work with my clients
on is that it does not mean that you're abnormal
or disordered or sick. It actually means your your heart
is working, your attachment system is working. If you really
cared about someone and really loved someone and maybe even
envisioned to future with them, you should be super sad
if it doesn't work out. And I don't expect that
(27:27):
to lift in two weeks. I would be kind of
worried if somebody was like whatever, easy come, easy go
after you know what felt like a significant relationship to them. So,
you know, some of the struggles that twenty somethings go through,
actually a lot of them anxiety at work or sadness
after a breakup. This is normal developmental struggle. That actually
(27:51):
shows that your brain and your heart are working properly.
They're not indications that there's something wrong with you. If
you're feeling stressed or anxious about work, or you're feeling
sad about a breakup, that's what I would expect and
hope in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
So actually, I want to focus on this a little
bit more because there's an example you give in the book,
and I'm am I going to spoil it. I don't know,
maybe it's up to you for it, go for it.
And I've got her name or their name, but because
of a breakup, she was like, oh, I have an
insecure attachment style. I have a disorganized attachment style. Now,
(28:30):
that is something that I see all the time. And
you know, I think it's like sixty five seventy percent
of us have a secure attachment style. But by the
way that we are diagnosing ourselves using TikTok videos and
social media, you would think that all of us are
like anxious avoiding it, right, anxious ambivalentus.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
We talk about that a little bit more because it's
one of my little secret like pet Peeves, when it
comes to like online psychology, that.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
I mean, other people diagnosing themselves with that.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah. Yeah, people late, it's.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
It's having a moment.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
I'll have people come in new clients and they'll say,
you know, I'm getting to know them, well, I have
an insecure attachment style. I'm like, oh, I don't know,
not so sure. So so there's a big difference between
having an anxious attachment style and just feeling anxious, or
having a bit insecure attachment style and just feeling insecure.
(29:27):
And I would say that the vast majority of twenty
somethings that I work with there, they don't have an
insecure attachment style. They're they're in a state of insecurity.
So an attachment style is something that you're saying, this
is diagnostic and character logical and true of me across
all situations, all relationships, all aspects of my life, all
(29:52):
ages and stages. No, like, very few twenty somethings of
mine would say, yeah, I don't. I'm not secure with friends,
I'm not secure with my family. I'm not secure with anybody,
you know, partners, boyfriends, girlfriends. I mean, that's when you
have an insecure attachment style. And if it's been that way,
(30:13):
consistently across time and across situations. Most twenty somethings for
reasons we've already gotten into because of all the uncertainty.
They're just feeling insecure. You know, they don't know who
their friends are, they don't know if somebody likes them,
they don't know if this person wants to go out
with them, they don't know if this new relationship is
going to work or not. That's just insecurity. That's uncertainty.
(30:35):
That is not having an insecure attachment style. And I
don't love for twenty somethings to you know, diagnose themselves,
not just because they're often not accurate, but they can
kind of wrap their identities around the sense of abnormality. See,
I have an insecure attachment style, and if only I
(30:57):
had a secure attachment style, maybe this relationship with work
or someone would want to be with me. And that's
usually not okay. So it's just normal to feel nervous
and worried and anxious about whether a new relationship is
going to last, or about you know, whether someone's going
to text you back. That's normal. That's not like an
(31:19):
abnormal attachment style.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Yeah, I really like hearing that. Actually because I feel
like there's definitely been points in my life right I've
thought that that was who I was, And I really
understand what you mean whereby we get really invested in
these things being who we are, that anything that contradicts
that that is us we deny and we suppress, when
(31:41):
actually it might be like the gateway too much more
open and better life. So one of the other big
things about our twenties, and it's about feeling behind, but
it's also about dealing with uncertainty, is like, how do
I know that I'm making the right decisions. I feel
(32:03):
like we have so many options of career pathways and
people we could date, and cities we could live in.
Something you talk about in the first book, though, that
I think really applies here is this concept of sliding
versus deciding. Can you talk us through that a little
bit more?
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Yeah, So, the sliding versus deciding is a concept. I mean,
I've popularized it putting it in my book, but it's
research by Scott Stanley really about living together, but it
could apply to anything. But it's this sense of like,
do we sort of slide into relationships because it happens,
it's convenient, it's gradual. We didn't really think about it,
(32:45):
or do we really actively decide this is the right
person for me, I want to make this commitment, or
this is the right job. I'm going to stay here
another year for these very good reasons. And I think
a lot of times, we know, what with relationships, whether
you're living with someone or even at work, people can
(33:07):
kind of slide into sticking around in something because they're
already there. Well, it's just easier to stay another year
than to imagine starting over again, So I'll just do
another year, And so we can sort of slide into
living with people, being in relationships with people longer than
maybe we should be, staying in jobs longer than maybe
(33:29):
it's really serving us, because it's the sort of the
easier path. It's just something we can slide into rather
than really saying this is you know, given all choices,
this would be the best one for me.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
So I guess that's leads to my next question is
how do we know which one is the best one
for us?
Speaker 3 (33:49):
Because I feel, well, that is a good question. I
actually think sometimes people slide because they don't want to
face the fact that that can't totally be answered. So
in my In my book coming Out you Know any Minute,
the twenty something Treatment, I talk about what are called
large world problems and large world problems or problems where
(34:12):
all the options and the consequences and the outcomes can't
be modeled. So like if you know, small world problem
is you throw dice and you can, you know, bet
on the chances of getting a three. You know how
likely that is, you know, to get it, not get it.
You can even bet some amount to win or lose.
Those are small world problems. Large world problems are choosing
(34:33):
a city, or a partner or a roommate, or a
college or a job, or how many kids to have.
I mean, it's all those problems where you can't model
all the options, you can't know all the consequences, so
you really you're making a decision amidst uncertainty, not amidst
you know, known factors. So you know, so many people
(34:57):
come to me because they want to know is it
right to stay with this person or to break up?
Or should I take this job or should I take
that job? And there is no I mean, we could
talk it to death. You can try to, you know,
do an algorithm. You could go see a fortune teller
and get your cards read and you know, but nobody,
no one can hack that for you. That it's ultimately
(35:21):
really that's what truly a decision is of Okay, I
don't know, I'll never know which one is right or best,
So there's not like a right decision. There's just my decision.
So we kind of try to, you know, make the
most thoughtful, intentional choice that we can. And then I
think you reassess, you know, a year into the job
(35:42):
or a year into the relationship, and do a real
gut check of like, well, how did that choice pan
out for me so far? Am I happy? More happy
than unhappy? What should I be? You know, kind of
paying attention to and then you decide, well do I
sign up for another year of this or do I not?
Speaker 2 (35:58):
That's really interestingly, you do a gut check, how do
you I like some of those questions you said, like
am I happy? Uh? Then I would be without this person,
without this job. What are some of the other ways
that we can maybe sense dissatisfactional sense that there might
there might be time to look for something that's better
(36:19):
for us?
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Mm hmm. I often ask clients is there something that
you're doing that you hope you're not doing in five years,
or is there something about this relationship that you hope
is not the way it is in five years. And
if they say yes, then it's like, okay, well then
why are we doing it now? How long are we
going to do this now? That usually if people look
(36:40):
out five years, like oh yeah, I definitely don't want
to be in this dead in relationship in five years. Okay,
well why are we here now? And how much longer
are we going to hang out? Or the same goes
for the job, or gosh, I hope my boyfriend and
I aren't still having conflict about cooking or whatever in
five years, Well, then let's fix it this here.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
That's I think about that a lot. I will say
I'm in a great relationship. There's no I'm I've done
the questions and they've never they've always turned. But I do.
In previous relationships, I remember being like, I want to
break up with this person, but I don't, but being like,
let me just wait six months because I was like
(37:21):
delaying the pain. I was delaying the inedible. And then
I had a friend say to me and she was like, well,
wouldn't you rather be six months into it in six
months time rather than starting in six months time.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
And she was like, what good for her?
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Yeah? I was like, oh wow, Like you're so she's
like the time is going to pass anyways, Like you're
going to get to the point, Like she's like, you're
going to have to break up with this person. It's
just whether you start the process now and then in
six months time give me like, oh, thank gosh, I've
done that already, or whether you wait and you delay it.
And it's like it's emotional procrastination where you understand, Yeah,
(38:00):
it's like you understand that there's going to be a
lot of fallout emotionally and mentally from a big decision,
So why not just wait? Why not just why not
just make that a future you problem? And you don't
realize that that future you is going to be there
pretty quick.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Like.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Yeah, honestly. And that's like and I feel like it's
interesting because I said this to some I always say
this on the show, like you can reverse one hundred percent,
Like the only decisions you can't reverse the ones that
you didn't make. So I think, you know, it's like, oh,
I guess having children, you can't really reverse that decision.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
But well you can always adopt.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Yeah, yeah, that's true. But it's like, especially when it
comes to career risks and career risks and wanting to
move to a new place, wanting to travel, you know,
there is so much regret in in action, probably more
regret then taking action because at least again we're going
to return to what you were saying before, Like when
(39:05):
you actually do something about a desire or an urge
you have, you're not faced with the what if being
what if I'd done that righting right?
Speaker 3 (39:13):
And you learn, you learn something. But you know, I
think sometimes this isn't exactly what you're talking about. But
oftentimes twenty somethings will delay decisions so that they you know,
sort of like keep all their options open so they
don't make a decision, so nothing is like it's like
they're they think they're stopping time. I mean, they're not
(39:35):
stopping time. And not making decisions is a decision. So
you're deciding, you know, not to break up with that partner,
you know, you were sort of not making a decision
on it. That's a decision. You were deciding to sink
another six months into a relationship that you were sort
of done with Yeah, and your friend was right to say, like, shoot,
(39:56):
you could be six months through the breakup at this point, so.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
Definitely that's good. And I did stay for another six
months there I probably should have listened to but you know, well,
we absolutely But I like that idea of like you
feel like you're buying yourself time, but like the time
is still pausing, right, You're just.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
It's still passing. I mean, I think the thing with
it's what's so different about being an adult versus sort
of being in school is you know, there's no syllabus,
there's no I mean, this gets back to am I behind.
There's no syllabus, there's no schedule that you have to meet.
The grading system is whatever you decide it is depends
(40:36):
on your value system and what you're trying to achieve,
not what other people are saying you should do or
what the person sitting next to you is doing. And
you know that means there aren't any right or wrong answers.
There are just your answers, which seems kind of like
an annoying non answer, but it's actually really liberating when
(40:57):
you when you really lean into that of that's you know,
I don't have to worry about whether I'm doing it
right or wrong, or on time or ahead or behind whatever.
None of that really exists. It's it's just it's your life,
your choices, and you're going to make most of these
choices more than once. And I mean even within one
relationship that you know may last your whole life. Every
(41:19):
day you're choosing how's that relationship going to go today?
Or what am I going to work on or what's
what conversation am I going to have with my partner
to make it better. That we're constantly able to sort
of improve the choices that we make.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
I like that as well. It's like not just a
it's not just one decision, it's an active choice like
throughout your life to be there, right to stay there,
whether that's a relationship with job, a city. So I've
got one final question for.
Speaker 3 (41:48):
You, Okay, all right, I'm ready.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Yeah. I don't know that's very anticlimacticve of me, although
I do feel like you have a really good answer
to this. What do you think of some expectations that
we should like go of in our twenties that would
make us happier?
Speaker 3 (42:04):
You know, I feel like you've done a really good
job of focusing on that today. I mean, I feel
like the biggest expectation that people need to let go
of is that their twenties are going to be the
best years of their lives. And we talked about this,
but they're probably not going to be, and that's really
really good news. That's a huge bummer if the best
(42:25):
years of your lives or your twenties and then the
rest of your life is all downhill. You don't want that,
it's not probably going to happen, but you know, kind
of feeling like everything's supposed to be amazing in your
twenties is really sort of a recipe for heartbreak because
it's a very challenging time. So I would say, bad
expectation that everything's going to be great and or you're
(42:48):
going to have everything figured out by thirty. I talk
a lot, really in both books about there's this cool
study I won't get in the weeds about at least
it says eighty It says eighty percent of life's most
defining moments take place by age thirty five. That is true. However,
(43:08):
you know most of those defining moments are you know,
happened in fits and starts, so I actually posted something
on my Instagram the other day. It was a picture
of me at thirty five, pregnant with my first child
and getting my PhD, my diploma, and that was thirty five,
and I was joking like, oo if I got these
two in right under the wire. But when you follow
(43:32):
them backwards, both of those projects started earlier. You know,
I started studying to get into grad school, you know,
in the middle of my twenties. I bumped into my
partner for the first time in my mid twenties, and
then met them again in my late twenties, and then
we got married after that. So all so, you know,
(43:52):
you don't really know like all these defining moments. They're
probably going to happen by the time you're thirty five,
and some of them may be happening in small pieces now.
You just don't know it. So the idea that everything's
going to be done by thirty is ridiculous. Don't stress,
But you might have started most of these things. You
just don't get to see the fruits of your labor
(44:12):
quite yet.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Wow. I really like that outlook, and it just makes
things feel like very exciting and surprising.
Speaker 3 (44:21):
Yeah, life is exciting and surprising and want you want.
I mean, I want your twenties to be awesome, but
I also want your thirties and forties and fifties to
be awesome. And I think if you lay the groundwork
for that, then life really does get better. I mean,
why would it not.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
What a positive way to finish. Thank you so much
for this little little pleasure. Now I want to quickly say,
you have just joined Instagram and everything I did. Yeah,
and you've done your first little like you've dipped your
toes into social media.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
I have. I have.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:54):
That's it's funny because I was off social media. I mean,
to be an author, to be sort of out there,
I was off social media more than you would expect.
I didn't have an Instagram. I had a very inactive
Twitter account. That was it. Whatever. I was just sort
of off of it. And I think part of it
(45:16):
was I was focused on writing books. You know, I
have clients, and you know, I don't know how you feel,
but I think a lot of clients maybe don't want
to bump into their therapist on social media.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
I know. But the same advice that gave you like
to everyone right right.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
So for me, it was more of you know, I'm
gonna kind of you know, lie low and write books
and try to reach people that way, which is super
important to me because you know, and good therapy is
not accessible and affordable not only to everybody, but really
not to most people. So part of writing books is
(45:56):
about getting that out there. But anyway, as social media
has evolved, and as I have been convinced that hello,
that is where people get their education and their information
and their news now, then if I want to help people,
that's where I need to be. Also that I know
y'all don't want to see me dance or put on makeup.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
Brain that well, actually.
Speaker 3 (46:21):
No, that's not true. But you know now that it
feels like obviously this is where a lot of people
are getting, you know, good information, or they could be
getting better information, and so I wanted to be a
part of that of the better information.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
I really really like that because I feel like you
have a lot to contribute. There's lots of misinformation out there,
and it's nice to have people online who have degrees
have like have done research on this stuff to really
set the fact straight. So, well, where can people follow you?
What's your Instagram name?
Speaker 3 (46:56):
Well, I'm Brand News to please come out and full
force because I have like two followers, but I'm at
doctor meg Jay on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, pretty much anywhere
where people would be. I'm doctor meg Jay is the
handle and I've just recently joined. So there's, you know,
(47:17):
some stuff starting to put some videos up. But the idea,
especially with the twenty something treatment coming out, is to
get the content out because, like you said, there's a
lot of misinformation and I would love to you know,
kind of get it on that conversation and help people out.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
Oh my gosh. Well, I'm super excited and I'm super
excited for people to get their hands on your book.
I'm going to leave a preyo to link in the
description of this episode and a link to The Defining Decade.
If you haven't read that book and you are a
fan of this podcast, what are you doing? They go,
so had and.
Speaker 3 (47:54):
Yell right exactly.
Speaker 2 (47:56):
It's funny. I hadn't even read it before I started
the podcast, and then I started the show and I
was like, oh my gosh, like this is so aligned,
So I will yeah, I will leave a link to
both of those. As always, if you enjoyed this episode,
please feel free to leave a five star review on
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now. Share
it with a friend if you think that they would
(48:18):
enjoy this they would get something out of this conversation.
I definitely did. And if you have an episode suggestion,
please feel free to send it to me at that
Psychology podcast and you could follow me at Gemma Spake
on Instagram for some more behind the scenes content. We
will be back next week with another episode. Until then,
stay safe and we will see you soon.
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