Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You can become genuinely generally more attractive. Yes, by doing
certain things you talk about appearance, you can increase your
fashion and fitness is something we all can improve, no
matter how your how many eyes you have or noses
you have.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
It's pretty simple, Like it doesn't it's not very hard,
and honestly, like men have it way easier the women
on that front, Like it's it's crazy, Like you just
I don't know, like take a shower and like fucking
comb your hair and put on a decent shirt and
like you're halfway there.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast. I am doctor
Scott Barry Kaufman, a cognitive scientist interested in plumbing the
depths of human potential. In this episode, I talk with
best selling author and my friend Mark Manson about what
women really want in a man. In addition to writing
multiple best selling books such as The Subtle Art of
Not Giving a Fuck and Everything Is Fun, Mark has
(01:01):
a past as a successful dating coach. Mark put a
lot of his insights into dating and seduction in his
twenty eleven book Models Attract Women Through Honesty. The contents
of that book are the focus of today's Really Fun
and enlightening conversation. So that's for their ADO.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I bring you Mark manson Sunday podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
This feels like it feels more casual.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Yeah, okay, super task.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, like more chill. You know we're we're off the clock. Yeah,
I'm off the call. I don't know about you.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
But I am off a clock. I've gone down the
rabbit hole of your prior life.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Oh boy, all right, I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
In seduction community, well, what was it called that, the
pickup artist with the seduction community seduction?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
I think we seduction community prior to the pickup artist community,
and then these days, I don't know what it's called.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
I think they've rebranded like red.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Pill or Manisphere something. Ah.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
But I really want to have a really nerdy conversation
with you at a really high level about whether nice
guys really finished last. And there's multiple ways you could
phrase the question. You could also do the inverse and
say do assholes really get ahead in the dating walm
And you know, maybe they're both opposite questions, or maybe
they're powerlell questions. But this question about we know for
(02:25):
a fact, throughout the course of millennia there are many
many self perceived nice guys who have been feeling like
they are being left out of the you know, and
understanding that and understanding like what's really going on? You know,
what do women really want? Now, maybe some listeners would say,
well I should ask a woman that, not ask you know,
(02:46):
Mark Manson. But you've done a deep dive into this
at one point in your life, and you had a
lot of experience. I mean you went out there and
put yourself on the line.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah. I was a professional and vating coach for men
for four years, about four or five years. I worked
with hundreds of men, wrote hundreds of articles, wrote a
book which is still quite popular today.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
It's called Models.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I tracked women through honesty.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Tracked women through honesty. So you put your you put
yourself on the line where you were okay being ejected,
you were okay learning what women wants and learning that
not all women are the same too. It's something you've
learned also true, right, Different women want different things at
(03:37):
different ages. So there's a lot of nuance here. You
know a major theme of your book is neediness. Okay,
what what do you how do you even define neediness?
And why is that so important? When you're trying to
attract someone.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
And I define needingess as a prioritization of other people's
opinions about you over your own opinion about you. So
it's if I'm if I am, And the way that
actually manifests itself in behavior is that if I'm prioritizing
(04:09):
your opinion of me over my own, I will censor
my own thoughts or I'll censor my what I actually think,
and I will say and do the things that I
think you will want to see from me, and uh,
it never no, it's it's uh in this. I mean.
The sad thing is like that is I think a
(04:32):
lot of people don't realize, like a lot of people
just think that that's what dating is, what a relationship is,
what friendship is, and it's it's not. So that's how
I I mean to be fair. I wanted to when
I was writing my book, I like I kind of
(04:54):
distilled what everything I felt about attraction down to this concept.
But I didn't know of a I didn't know of
a label for it, so I kind of just anented one.
And neediness just struck me as like a very logical
and obvious way to describe it.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
There's something very human here that you're hitting on. It's
not just like women are tuned to neediness. There seems
to be a general principle here. The more need you
are about something in general, the more you tend to
push people away. It's a downward spiral in ala.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
It's repulsive in all social contexts. So well, yeah, so
like imagine, I mean you just I imagine as a guy,
like you go to a friend's house to watch a
football game, and there's a guy there who's like sitting
too close to you, who's like smiling, asking you all
these weird questions, you know, laughing at all, like way
too hard at all your jokes. Like your immediate instinct
(05:51):
is going to be to get away from that person,
you know.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
So it's it's I don't want to laugh at you now, no.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
But it's it's like it's just a commonality of human
of just human interaction. But I think we don't. There's
a lot of subtlety to it like that, you know,
what I just describe is like a very overt and
obvious example of it, but it happens on a lot
of subtle levels as well. And I think, particularly with dating,
(06:18):
those those subtleties get.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Amplified quite a bit, definitely. And you know, a lot
of what we're talking about here is they have attraction
in trying to and a lot of it, let's be honest,
is overcoming fear of rejection.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
I think there's a lot of self perceived nice guys
who are terrified of rejection. They would rather not talk
to a woman. Ever, if that means that they may
be rejected, how can give any tips on how to
kind of overcome that fear. Is it just like getting
out there and doing it over and over?
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Yeah, it's it's I think it's. I mean, rejection is
just a fact of life. So the sooner you can
get comfortable with it, the better.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
You've been rejected in the past.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Dude, thousands of times, I mean, I don't know if
it's actually you're like, maybe not thousands, but like it's
just wow, okay, an insane amount. You even slapped Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
uh it's it's the act of trying to protect yourself
(07:23):
from rejection. Yeah, is what makes you unattractive. So when
you cater your thoughts and feelings to prevent rejection from
another person, you make yourself less attractive and interesting to
that person. And so one of the concepts I talked
about in the book is that attraction is is ultimately
it's polarizing. Like the things that are gonna make you
(07:45):
most attractive to some people are also going to get
you rejected most often by other people. So you can't
you can't play the middle ground. Like if you like
to maximize your dating experience, you have to basically go
all in on the things that are going to make
you attractive to the partners that you desire and or
(08:10):
that are gonna make you happy. And then except that
there's gonna be a certain amount of rejection that's just
gonna naturally come as a collateral damage in that m Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
So it's one thing to cognitively you know, but there's
another thing, you know, to actually get through the experience,
you know, because not pleasant experience, but a lot of
it seems like there's different kinds of classes of nice guys.
There's the nice there's like the entitled nice guy, the
nice I'm just making up names labels on the spot,
but there's the type of nice. They're like, I'm such
(08:40):
a nice guy, and I don't understand why I'm not
getting laid all the time. I should be I should
be getting laid all the time because I'm such a
nice guy. Well that's the entitled nice guy.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
I think there's like the nerdy nice guy. I think
there's the well intentioned nice guy who is is just
generally baffled and confused. Why it seems like they're always
in the friend zone. I know some people like this.
They're feeling they're always in the friend zone and the
friend is always going after the seeming asshole, you know,
(09:10):
and they're like, hello, what about They're like, why can't
I find a nice guy? And then guy's like hello, Right,
So I think that's you know, that maybe a different
class or nice guy. Something it seems important to recognize
here is you know, we're not just attracted as humans.
There's like a human issue. It's not just about women.
None of us are just attracted to a nice person, right, Like,
(09:32):
even from the male perspective, if you think about the
women you're attract to, it's not just because they're nice.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
It's like the most baseline, lowest bar that you can
you can clear, it's just being a nice person. So
there needs to be there needs to be something else
going on.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Yeah, for sure, that's important too for for our well
meaning nice guys who are listening this episode will want
them to think about this.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
And by the way, you know, the entitled nice guy, like,
that's that's the harsh truth for that guy, is that
it's it's it's like, dude, being nice doesn't earn you
an award, Like you're gonna You're not gonna get a
medal because you were like polite to somebody, Like that's
just called being a decent human being, right, Like it's
being like being a nice person isn't if the purpose
(10:18):
is to get you things, then you're not actually a
nice person. You're you're kind of a piece of shit.
And to the nerdy nice guy, I think the nerding
nice guy, it's mostly just a you know, being a
little bit out of touch with their own intentions and
being you know, not not developed, like they haven't learned
how to like speak up and state what they want
(10:38):
clearly and communicate what they want clearly. And then I
think there's there's kind of a third class a nice guy,
which is just it's just kind of clueless, like just
doesn't it has no experience, has never been on a day,
you know, like has never actually just like, you know,
(11:00):
tried to get out there at all.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
So experience sounds like it's so important and you went
through a lot of experience. Yeah, you know, hopefully we
got recorded earlier. Where are we talked about your background?
I think that was when in the first four minutes.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
So I my previous career. I was a dating coach
for about five years. I worked with hundreds of men,
both one on one and seminars. Took guys out the
bars and coffee.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
He did that, he went out in the scene.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Oh yeah, yeah, wow.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Wow, you did all that. Okay, did you do the
earpiece thing where you talk to them as they do
that sometimes in these pickup trainings?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Now, I was too broke to do that back then. No.
I would just take guys to bars and talk to
girls with them and give them feedback and you know,
help them out, take them to the mall, help them
buy a decent shirt, you know, basic stuff.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
And you've seen if you've seen some real big transformations.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Oh for sure.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
You know.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
One of the really cool things is is every once
in a while I'll run into an old client and
you know, like they'll come to an event or something
I've had. I've had a couple of guys like bring
their wives to events. So yeah, and just be like,
you know, that's kind of beautiful. Yeah, it's really cool
to know that you played some part in that. Yeah,
it's really cool.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
That is that's that is really cool.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
See you say things like ask yourself this, why would
you want to be intimate with someone who doesn't appreciate you?
Why would you ever settle for such a person because
she's hot, Come on, have a little more self respect,
have some higher standards. Yeah, that causes a consciousness shift
and a lot of nice guys I think from oh
I got to perform and impress them to oh I
(12:41):
wonder if they're going to impress me. Now that's a
real consciousness shift, and that seems like a game changing
kind of mental shift in approaching the situation.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yeah. Yeah, I think men who are needy they don't
consider that like it. This is like you get on
my soapbox for a second.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I love Mark on a soapbox.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
I love it, so you know, obviously, like it's there's
a lot that is said about objectifying women, how it's
bad for women, which is true, right, you shouldn't objectify women.
What doesn't get said is that objectifying women is also
bad for men, because if you are if you are
(13:23):
basing like your your romantic relationship is such a large
part of your life and your your attention, your your
emotional energy, your mental energy, and if you are basically
saying that none of that matters as long as she's hot,
Like it's it's like she could be a bitch, you
(13:45):
could be miserable with her, you could not trust her,
you could not feel respected by her. But if she's hot,
you'll tolerate all that shit, you know, just because you
think she's hot. Right, So it's like you are a
man is degrading himself. Yeah, in the process as well.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
And I don't think she'll respect you or she'll.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Just take advantage of you. I mean, well, it depends
if she's If she has integrity, she won't respect you,
and then she won't date you. And if she doesn't
have integrity, she'll just take advantage of you.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
I really went down a deep rabbit hole in studying
your work and the work of pickup artists and the
seduction committee whatever they fuck they call themselves these days,
it just seems like there's a certain factor. Now, I
did a factor in house something of the kinds of
themes that they're obsessed with. So one of them is
(14:37):
coming across as creepy. You know, fear rejection is one
of them. But just coming across as creepy is a
major fear of a lot of these guys that get
these trainings. But in my perception, a lot of them
will creepy when they're doing their pigafaris then to make
that looks creepy, but it's not.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
I So I I thought a lot about what creepiness is.
What is creepiness? So creepiness is I mean some of
there is a physical attraction element of it, Like physically
attractive guys can definitely get away with more creepy behavior.
The thing that makes creepiness creepy is that it is
it is it's incongruent behavior, right, So it's it's essentially
(15:22):
it's when you are It's when you are saying one
thing but being another way. Like it's it's like a
guy who's like telling you how much money he has
when he's like, you know, he's dressed in in like
you know, hobo clothes. Like it's there's like an incongruence
(15:43):
in somewhere in their identity, Like what they're portraying is
not lining up in some way or another. And I
think creepiness it can happen. I think it's a signal.
Like I think the reason it evolved is is that
it's a signal for women of manipulation and untrustworthiness. And
I think to your point, I think the reason kind
(16:05):
of pick up artist tactics come across as creepy is
because they are fundamentally manipulative and dishonest, and so they
trigger the creepiness red flag and a lot of women
and like and then the But I think it's also
it can happen with men who are also unaware of
their own intentions and desires and impulses who they will
(16:26):
in their head, they're being honest when they express something. Uh,
but the woman can see like something's off here. Yeah,
Like he says this thing, but he seems this other way.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
See. But that's a profound insight because I think a
lot of men are kind of a conditioned or kind
of think the way the world works is they will
be more successful if they hide their intentions, right, Like, oh,
can't show that I'm sexually interested kind of like Mike
brit But that in some ways that actually makes you
more creepy.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Well no, but it's it's it's that's there's an interesting
paradox there. It's that's ultimately why I landed on just
the prescription of honesty, because honesty, even if you get rejected,
even if you fail, even if you don't get the
girl of your dreams, you're not gonna like, You're not
gonna be creepy, You're not gonna be manipulative. You're still
(17:21):
gonna have integrity and you're you're still gonna you'll be
able to approach women and try to, you know, approach
your dating life in a way that you can feel
proud of and that you can feel you can maintain
your self respect.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
I get it. I mean I feel like I see you,
I see you and what you're you know, underneath a
lot of this comes down to just basic confidence, self respect,
self worth, not coming at it from a sense of neediness,
not from a sense of vulnerable narcissism, which is a
topic that I study, you know, where like, oh, I'm
I mean I think the need a lot of neediness
comes from vulnerable narcissism. Well, let it out. All that sounds,
(17:59):
but a lot of it does seem to come from
that vulnerable narcissism. Not you know, there is grandiose narcissism, yep,
you know, but I also think you see a lot
in the in the pickup ours community. You know, there's
a vulnerable kind of narcis We just.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Talks about this before, how pickup is essentially just grandiose
narcissist teaching, teaching vulnerable narcissists how to be grandiose narcissist,
and that's the supply and demands. And see, grandiose narcissists
will actually get laid by women who are vulnerable narcissists.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
So like it's, oh, that's super interesting.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah, it's there is an attraction there that happens across
the narcissism.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Spectrum, and vulnerable narsism and women is highly correlated with
worderline personality disorder. But maybe we don't want to go there,
but there's there's something there.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
I'm not surprised and and that's why when you also
in these communities, the guys who do get laid a
bunch and data tunnel women like they have the worst
fucking horror stories about Like this is like ultimately, and
I think I've talked about this in models. It's like
you ultimately, you ultimately attract what you are.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
And such a good insight and it's yes.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
So if you are narcissistic, selfish, manipulative, untrustworthy, that's the
woman you're gonna end up with. And you can kind
of fake your way to appearing attractive in the short term.
And guess what, You're gonna end up with women who
fake their way to being attractive in the short term.
So it's like there's a parallelism that that happens.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Well, have you seen the hot matrix, the hot crazy matrix?
You don't think that's a thing.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
You don't think that's sure, that's a perfect example of
a story that no, no, no, I think that's a
perfect example of grandiose narcissism attracts grandiose narcissism, or narcissism
attracts narcissism, manipulation attracts manipulation. Really, yeah, you.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Think it's a good example of that. That explains why.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Because it's the hot crazy woman, Like this gets in
the whole tangent of like what's hot, And you're right,
that's a good point too, right, like it's if your
standard of hot is like the porn star, you know,
fake eyelashes, fake boobs, that's my standard, fake as fake everything.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Yeah, I like the fake ass. I like the fake ass. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Guess what like the women that the women that look
like that. No, you're right, Yeah, they look like that
for a reason.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
No, you're right. In reality, before people get the wrong
idea about me, I'm usually the one. I'm usually the
one who's falling in love with the girl. They're almost like, uh,
what do you why hurt? You know, and I'm like,
she's so quirky and cute, you know, like I love
the nerdy, the nerdy, you know, glad, the glasses and freckles,
and that's kind of my type. So you know, you say,
(20:49):
the exact words you say are far less important than
your intentions and level of anxiety. So this is a
formula I really want to nerd out with you today.
That is a great formula. Yeah, you're saying that the
anxiety part, I think is associated correlated with the neediness
part of the equation. Sure, but then what you know,
(21:10):
the intentionality in being more important than the words. If
you could unpack that for me, because you have this
whole story where you went up to women and your
friend went up to can I pe in your butt? Now?
Doesn't that illustrate this point you're trying to make.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Oh my god, the p and your butt story?
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Am I wrong? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (21:30):
No, I mean it's it's this is one thing that
I just learned going out and speaking the hundreds and
hundreds and hundreds of women, is that ultimately, like the line,
the line, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, it's it's
who you are, and it's the attitude that you show
up with. I would also in the context it contexts, absolutely,
(21:52):
you have to be socially aware, but it's much more
about your identity, who you are, who you are, who
you present yourself as. And then and then the attitude
that behind it, Like the words themselves are like like
you can give the best line in the world to
the neediest dude and he's still gonna get rejected left, right,
(22:14):
and center. So it's a great point, you know, back
to the intention thing, it's it's it's the intention, it's
the why you said. It's not what you say, it's
why you said it, you know, And and it's if
you're you can say anything and if you're looking for
a reaction, it's gonna come across as needy. It's potentially
(22:34):
gonna come across as creepy. If you say something and
you're just like fuck it, having a good time, having
a laugh, expressing your thoughts, you know, if there's an
unconditionality to it, And by that what I mean is
that you're not looking for a reaction, then it's it's
either she's gonna pick up what you're putting down and
(22:56):
she's gonna love it, or she's gonna say no, thank
you and move on, and then you know she's doing
you a favor because she's not she's not vibing with you,
or throw a drink in your face. I mean, if
you're an asshole, yeah, she might do that.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Yeah, well even if you're a non asshole. Sometimes wires
get crossed, you know. Sometimes you can have sometimes you
can have the best in intentions and you can't control
someone else's perception of it, you know. Yeah, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Should have happened?
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Should happen? Yeah, you actually say allow yourself to be creepy.
So you know, like you say, like things happen, things happen.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
You have to understand that like you're never going to
communicate yourself perfectly all the time, so you.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Know, you can have that. That's the only point I
wanted to make there is you can have the best
of intentions and still be horribly rejected, and to be
able to not take that personally also to not be
mad at the person, you know, like, you know, like
in some sort of entitled sort of way. You know, Hey,
there's something I did want to bring up, and that's
this idea of like can you be too cool for school?
Speaker 2 (23:56):
You know?
Speaker 1 (23:57):
A lot of this seems to make a lot of
sense in the early stages of relationship, but like, you know,
like there are times in a relationship where you really
are needy on the you know, you're human, right, and
and honesty is being needy, and you know, let's say
you're you get sick and you need your partner to
take care of you for a certain part. Or let's
say you're starting to notice and in balance in liking
(24:20):
and you're starting to feel within yourself a little bit
neatier because you're invested in the relationship, you know, so
I'm trying to reconcile that, you know, Like, so there's
a lot of advice more about like attracting someone who's
new than like being in a relationship over many years.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
It is primarily about attraction, although I would say I
do think neediness is important as a principle throughout a relationships. Again,
as you point it out, like it should happens in life,
there are moments of weakness, you know, moments of insecurity,
and I think in a long term relationship there's a
(24:56):
lot of leeway to like support each other. But I don't.
I think if there's ever needingness for an extended period
of time, that results in kind of an imbalance within
the relationship. So I do think it's still holds as
a guiding principle within a long term relationship, with the
understanding that they are going to be like short term
(25:18):
moments here and there, that one person or the other
is going to be in a very vulnerable position.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
It seems like demographics are super important, and you see
a lot of guys with midlife crisis you know, going on,
and then they're only going for like that, you know,
the the hot you know, twenties, you know, in twenties
in there, like why why AREM I getting rejected? You know?
It seems like knowing your target audience and what's going
to be a real authentic fit seems to be really
important part of this story, right for sure.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
It's it's I think what I think men tend to
the men live in one or two one of two
different fantasy worlds when it comes to what I would
call like identity or lifestyle. The first fantasy world is
that none of it should matter. That if you are
like charming enough and charismatic enough and have all the
(26:06):
right lines and jokes, that you should be able to
hook up with any girl anywhere, under any circumstance whatever, like,
which is just fucking fantasy world that's not realistic. The
second fantasy that men have is that that lifestyle and identity,
you know, it basically all just boils down like money
and and maybe how tall you are, which is also bullshit,
(26:31):
Like those things matter, but they're they're a relatively small.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
How much mon are we talking, I mean, just.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Money in general, Like it's it, but it's it's a
relatively small amount of the pie. Uh, And it's I mean, ultimately,
what matters is the life that you've built for yourself.
You know, your lifestyle, lifestyle, your occupation, your interests, your
friend group, what you like to do on the weekends,
(26:58):
your relationship with your family, like the city you live in,
Like all these things are Like are your age, All
these things are big factors. You're religious or ethnic background,
Like all these things are factors. And I think it's
important that not just men, everybody is realistic about what
are the demographics that I'm going to naturally appeal to,
(27:21):
and what are the demographics that I'm naturally not gonna
appeal to.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
And be honest with yourself.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Be honest with yourself, and then just play within those demographics.
Like don't and I you know, back when I coached,
I used to run into this occasionally. Get the forty
five year old divorce guy midlife crisis, you know, wants
to start going out to nightclubs and talking to college girls,
and like wants me to give him the line that's
(27:45):
gonna get him the hook up of the college girl.
I'm like, I'm sorry, dude, but there's there's not a line.
Like there's just no line. Like you're in the wrong place.
And besides, it's like, if there is a girl here
who's willing to hook up with a guy twice her age,
you probably don't need a line for her, like it's
she's just that's her thing. It's her thing, or she's
(28:08):
there for you know, whatever. The car the benefits, so
it's it's I think this is why you know the
subtitle of my book is Attracted Women through Honesty. The
honesty is not just about the honesty with the women,
it's the honesty with yourself. Love that, because if you
lie to yourself, the repercussions of that are ultimately unattractive.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Oh man, I love that. Radical drop them like they're radical.
I'm all about radical self honesty. I think this is
what we're friends. We were both pretty radically self honest
about each other. And have the ideas of your book
changed at all since you've written it in light of
the me too sort of era, because there are some
(28:53):
things to say in there that are a little like
me too questionable, such as you have a thing you say,
keep expressing your interest and keep going for it, being
a sort of dominant even say dominance is attractive to
women up until the point they say no, keep going
for it. Now you say that in the book. Has
you're thinking about that changed in light of the last
(29:14):
five six years of this eventual consciousness changed.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
No, I haven't the last time. So I did a
revision of the book in twenty sixteen. Oh, that's the
last time I did a revision of it, and I
think the me too stuff was just starting around then.
But I remember that revision. I kind of went through
with that in mind. You know, there's probably like I
(29:40):
originally wrote the book when I was twenty nine, no,
twenty seven, and then that revision I was thirty two.
So it's like, I'm sure there's probably a more delicate
and nuanced way to put there's some passages there. I'm
sure there's more delicate and nuanced ways to put it.
But I think ultimately I stand by the principle, which
(30:02):
is you should express what you want. You should you know,
if she doesn't say no, feel free to continue expressing.
I just think there's a certain level as long as
there's respect there, as long as you're not being pushy
or you know, intimidating her. I think there's a certain maybe,
(30:25):
like if I did go back and revise it, I
would probably revise like an awareness around her emotional state,
because I think a lot of women they they don't
feel free to say no or they are too insecure
to say no. And so I think there's like it's
important to as a man to try to be aware
of that.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Well, the women are complex, and then throughout the millennia
have been trying to understand. There's some famous quotes like
from like famous Nobel Prize winners like I understand the universe,
but women forget about it.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
You know.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
So you do point out some of the complexities of
women in your book. You point out how it might
not seem rational, but a lot of women you can
say something that gets them so mad at you. Polarization,
you say, is a good thing. And so you say, well, look,
don't count yourself out. If you've made a woman mad
at you, you know, like she could actually come back,
(31:15):
and you know it could it could work out. So
I'm trying to reconcile that within this sort of me
too era. But but there's something really interesting that you're
pointing on there, you know, point.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Depens what she's mad about. I mean, it's true. My
response to that would be, you know, the opposite of
attraction is not anger, the opposite of attraction is indifference.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Right, So why is polarizing women such a positive thing
to do.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
You know polarization. It's like, it's kind of like if
you are going to if you make the decision to
be honest about your thoughts and feelings, you have to
understand that sometimes people aren't gonna like your thoughts and feelings.
Sometimes they're going to be upset by them. Sometimes they're
going to disagree with you. Sometimes they're gonna want to
(32:02):
argue with you. And I think it's important to understand
that that's not necessarily a bad thing. You know, the
same way you argue with family members, or you get
upset with your dad, or you know, it's it's part
of a natural part of intimacy is feeling heightened emotion,
both positive and negative. So I think as long as
(32:24):
the reason she's mad isn't because you're a piece of
shit who like lied to her or did something unethical,
it's not necessarily a bad thing. I'll give you a
really simple I'll give you a really simple, kind of
practical example of this that I think probably illustrates why
polarization it's not only natural in a healthy relationship, but
(32:46):
it's also like good. So my wife, this started when
we were dating. I you know, like many women, she
would spend a lot of time getting ready to go
out on a date night or whatever, and she try
on some new outfit and then she'd come out and
she'd be like, how do I look? And if she
(33:07):
didn't look good, I would say I don't think you
look good? And she said that to you? What did
she say?
Speaker 1 (33:16):
No?
Speaker 2 (33:16):
No?
Speaker 1 (33:17):
No.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
She would get ready to go on a date and
she put on her whole outfit and everything. Yeah, and uh,
and then she come out like most women tend to do,
and they say how do I look?
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Oh, you have to lie, yeah, exactly, you have to experience.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Men would just like say you look beautiful, Like, don't
even think about it. I make a practice of telling
her if I don't think she looks good, I tell
her I don't. Don't you know, I like, I don't
like that dress. I don't think it looks good. The
first year or so that we were together, she would
get so fucking pissed off.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Yeah, women don't like that.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
No, she really doesn't like that. And so but I
was like, you asked me how you look, and this
is what I'm not going to lie to you, right,
So she would get upset. We'd have a little the
first year or so we'd have like little arguments and
stuff about it. But a funny thing started happening after
a while, which is if she asked me a question,
(34:11):
she says, how does this look? Or how do I
look tonight? How does this outfit look? And I say,
you look fucking spectacular? Now that means something like because
now she knows I'm being honest. She knows, and I'm
willing to say the other thing. So when I say
the good thing, she's like super super happy. And another
(34:31):
funny thing happened too after a while, and I would
argue this is healthy as well. Is after another couple
of years, we reached a point where you know, she'd
come out of the closet or or the bathroom or
whatever and she'd be like, how do I look? And
I'd say, I'll think I don't like the outfit, don't
look great, and she'd be like, well, I don't care,
I like it. And then we got exactly that's.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Her prioritizing her own exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
So it's it's I think that that polarization of response
is actually healthy. It's because it also enables the person
you're with to stop being needy themselves.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
As well, right, and you're encouraging authentic, honest conversations. You know,
if I say something that you disagree with and you're like, Scott,
I don't agree with that, you know, like you know,
I'm not going to fall to pieces, you know, like
that's good, a good conversation. I don't want to be
around someone who is who says everything I say is
(35:31):
brilliant or do I so you say, I strongly believe
in the idea of fuck, yes or no. This shows
the early days of Mark Manson, by the way, and
his the word fuck. But yeah, I really think that's
my philosophy too, right, Like if someone's not interested, like
(35:53):
move on, you know, Like I think a lot of
nice guys get stuck, right. I think there was a
term for that in the pickupart of Stays, where you
get stuck with on one person. I think there was
a term for they had for it. I'm forgetting what
it is right now, the average frustrated chump pick or something.
That is what they they were so mean referring to
a nice guy that average frustrated chump, you know, get
(36:16):
stuck on one person. But I think there's something really
important about that, right is like if is no one
went to move on and being graceful about that.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Well, again, think about it if you if a woman
is not interested yet you keep waiting around for someone
who's not interested, spending valuable time of your own life
waiting and hoping, Like, what does that say about your
view of yourself? Like, it doesn't. It suggests that you
(36:49):
don't think very highly of yourself, that you don't value
your own time very highly. You could be using that
time to go out and meet other women. So it's yeah,
it's ultimately again kind of with the objectification thing, it
comes back to it's a self respect issue.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
So the friend zone is is I've I've been so
fascinating understanding that I think that a lot of guys,
not of nice guys, you know, they this relates to
what you're just saying, they think that they stay in
there long enough someday the woman's going to just magically
be like, oh you know what, I you know what.
I It was you all along that I loved. But
(37:31):
I think there's some nuance there because I think that
there is this terrible idea that every that no woman
can just be a friend that like, you know, the
guys and girls can't be friends, you know that every
woman that you're friends with, if you're not sleeping with them,
then you're in the friend zone. And I abhor that idea,
you know, because I have a lot of female friends
(37:52):
that I think it's I have a wonderful, waterful friendship
and it's very meaningful, and I generally don't want to
sleep with them, you know.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
It came. I mean, that's just the objectification again, It's
just that's what it is. It's because it's but.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
I see that a lot in the in the Pickup
Ours Commune. I remember back in the day and in
my twenties when the game came out and I tried
my hand at all that stuff, it felt all of
it felt very uncomfortable to me. And one thing was
like I remember I would go out, you know in
the scene they called the whatever their term for the
real world. They're like, we're now going to the real world,
and and and the guys would be like yelling at
(38:27):
me to be like dude, why are you talking to her?
And not like you know, escalating it, you know, and
I'm like, well, actually this goes just cool. Like I'm
not trying to sleep, believe it. Or not I'm not
talking to a girl that I'm not trying to sleep.
They couldn't understand that concept. Yeah, so I don't know
what my point is, but but I guess my point
is that is that, like, let's let's define what it
(38:50):
means to be in the friend zone, because I don't
think you're automatically in the friend zone if you have
a really cool friendship.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Friend zone is when you are attracted to a woman
and you want to have a mantic relationship with her,
but she just sees you as a friend yes, and
doesn't want to bring you out of the friend zone.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Well, I think a lot of guys can really resonate
with being in the friend zone and being gutted, gut
it over, you know, when they they seem in their perception,
they seem to see the girl constant dating jerks, you know,
for instance. You know, but is there any way out
of the friend zone? What are your thoughts on the
friend zone?
Speaker 2 (39:26):
I don't think about the friend zone a whole lot, Like.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Well, you're married, so I'm glad. I'm glad to hear that.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
I just like, I don't. To me, it was always
really simple of like, look, you shouldn't wait around for
somebody who doesn't want to be with you, like period.
Just if she doesn't want to be with you, don't
wait around. Get on with your life if you want.
If you want to stay friends with her, that's fine,
be friends with her, but don't be friends with her
(39:54):
because you're waiting that she'll, like one day, hopefully change
her mind, you know. So it's like that, I don't know.
There's like a lot of brew haha over friend zone
stuff that I never I always have a ton of
female friends, and yeah, sure some of them I like
totally wanted to hook up with. Some of them I didn't.
Some of them I just really liked hanging out with.
(40:15):
So it's like, I don't know whatever women are. People
like I do find it really discouraging and disconcerting when
when men A don't have female friends and B don't
think you can have female friends.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
That it bothers me. It's a pet people of mine.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Yeah, it's just it's you were like, I find it
funny too, because then I'm like, well, no, wonder you're
so fucking confused about women because you never spend any
time around Yeah, yeah, that's true. You know, it's like,
how do you think you're gonna like relate to women
if you don't spend time with them.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
That's so true. You do argue there's three types of women.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
It's like that there's three types. There's uh interest, I
think it's interested, uninterested, in neutral, and if she's uninterested.
So if she's neutral and like, a neutral woman is
just somebody who, like, you don't know if she's attracted
to you or not.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
She might not even know if she's attracted you or right.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Yeah, you should, uh you know, you should pursue her
until you find out, and then once you find out
she goes into interested or uninterested categories. If she's an
uninterested you should stop pursuing her full stop, let it go. Yeah,
and then if she's interested, great.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
So it's important. So it's important to understand this framework.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
It's important because I think a lot of guys waste
a ton of time trying to make sure that every
woman they need ends up being interested, and that is
just backfires or they try to convert women from uninterested
in the interested, and it's just like I think that
framework was just to put it as simply as possible.
(41:57):
If she's neutral, she like she should remain neutral as
little as possible, Like, you should make your interests clear
as soon as possible, and as soon as you make
your interest clear, it should polarize her. And if she
goes into the uninterested side, let it go. And if
you want to be friends, you can be friends. But like,
don't don't sit there and try to like game her
(42:21):
and try to you know, get her all worked up
or whatever.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Okay, well that's fair enough, but you also do really
make a case for going for it and for I mean,
I'm not saying that's incompatible what you just said, but
I think there is another side of it where you're like, no, like,
sometimes they'll be more attracted to you if you show
that you're attracted to them. You say, quote, the biggest
aphrodisiac in the world is someone who likes you, genuinely
(42:46):
likes you. A woman's desire is to be desired, but
it has to be genuine desire. It can't be a
i'll desire you as long as you boost my ego
and impress my coworkers kind of desire.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
Ye.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
So I guess keeping that framework in mind is good
on the one hand, but also if you have limited
information on where they're at in terms of their interest
in you. You know, let's encourage guys to go for it,
you know, respectfully.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
And that's if if you don't know, if if you
don't know if they're interested or not, if they're in
that neutral category, then you yeah, you have to go
for it until you find out. And then if you
if they're uninterested, then you stop.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Well, I mean it almost it feels like it doesn't
need to be said, but it doesn't have to It
does have to be said. Yeah, it does.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Unfortunately, this is why we have.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
The me too movement. Yes, yes, So in the remaining
time we have an interview, let's just, uh, let's offer
some hope to uh, to nice guys who are really struggling,
really struggling. Uh. And you really believe at the end
of the day that anyone can be attractive. You actually
make a distinction between good looking and being attractive, and
(43:51):
you really have a lot of hope that that everyone
can can increase their.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Attractive everybody's attractive to somebody. If if you never meet
a who's attracted to you, it's you're meeting the wrong women.
So you can improve yourself to become attractive to more women,
which is you should also do that. Everyone can do that, right,
But if you're never meeting women who are attracted to
then you are meeting the wrong women on some level.
(44:17):
So it's it's everybody's attracted to somebody somewhere and if
and if you if you're not finding them, then it's
an issue of uh filtering. It's not an issue of like,
oh women just like tall guys with money or like
uh women, you know, like all the bullshit that you.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
Can sell, have this whole idea about that. But but
but you do make a point. You can become genuinely
generally more attractive. Yes, by doing certain things you talk
about appearance. You can increase your fashion and fitness. There's
something we all can improve no matter how your how
many eyes you have or noses you have.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
It's pretty simple, Like it doesn't it's not very hard.
And honestly, like men have it way easier the women
on that front, Like it's it's crazy, like you just
I don't know, like take a shower and like fucking
comb your hair and put on a decent shirt and
like you're halfway there.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
Yeah, and a lot of guys don't realize that. Yeah,
how much they can up level themselves just by doing that.
You say, women are attracted to a man they can respect,
to a man they can trust. If you're constantly looking
for approval for what to say and how to feel,
how could anyone respect or trust you? And so I
think a lot of this, you know, it just keeps
coming back to that. You know, these are these are
simple things that I think people can listen to TANGI
(45:37):
will takeaways in their lives to to get to be
with the kind of women they generally want to be with.
But as you know, we're we're not teaching. We're not
doing one of these things like have sex with any model.
You know, that's not what we're here for.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
That's the follow up.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
But that's that's they work that we're writing together. Yeah no, uh,
but uh, you know, when you call, I think we
had an interview where we're joking, but I couldn't te
if you were serious not When you said models, did
you were you referring to statistical models like a model
a way of thinking about it, or were you actually
thinking about models?
Speaker 2 (46:09):
It is a it's a double entendre. So it's it's
it's specifically what it is is, and I believe I
talk about this in the introduction, is that there's no
healthy in a postfeminist world. There's no healthy model of masculinity.
That there's no for men who grew up in the
Internet age, there's no clear and obvious role model. You know,
(46:32):
if you look at our parents generation, you know, they
grew up with like John Wayne and uh, you know,
the Jack Nicholson and all these people, like it was
kind of obvious of like, Okay, that's that's what a
man is, That's how I'm supposed to be. This is
you know, what we do. Whereas growing up in say,
starting in the nineties, it started to get a lot
more ambiguous and unclear. And so the goal of the
(46:55):
book was to just present like, here's a model of
what being an attractive man is that is based on science,
and it's also uh practical and useful. And then the
double entendres.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
It's well, the nerd in me loves the double entendre.
I love that you know your what's your own journey,
you know, personally, just at a personal level, like being
vulnerable for a second, as Mark Manson, like, you strike
me as someone who earlier in your life you probably
felt things very deeply. I actually get the sense, and
(47:28):
I may be completely off base here, but I'm a
been a psychologist for twenty five years. I get the
sense that you are this like Big Teddy Bear who
who early in your life you couldn't you couldn't stand
the feeling of being rejected or whatever. But you've gone
through such a journey like personally, like you've transformed, and
you've gone through out of growth and maybe you even
(47:50):
at some point overcompensated by being too cool, where like
oh nothing affects me, you know, like uh, don't give
a fuck about anything. You know, maybe you went through
that phase at some point and now you're a much
more integrated human. But just being your friend and kind
of knowing you, this is this is what my intuition
is telling me about the arc of your story. How
much does that dove tell the reality what I just said?
Speaker 2 (48:11):
I you know, it's funny though, like like being a
person who feels things deeply, like I never know, Like
all I know is how I feel things, So I
don't know if that's like for someone like don't there's
no reference point, so I don't know, Like I I
you know, I grew up in a very like kind
of emotionally stifled family, you know, very my parents were
(48:35):
like old school Middle America, you know, everything's fine, don't
talk about it type of family. And so, you know,
I in my early life I just buried things, which
really really buried things, and was developed a number of
(48:55):
like self destructive patterns and behaviors at a pretty young age.
And then I was also like I was a classic
entitled nice guy, like I was every girl I wanted
the day who became friends with and then you know,
and then I would feel like I got cheated out
of something because she didn't want to sleep with me.
(49:15):
And it's like, well, dude, you never said any it's
been six months. You never fucking said anything, Like, so
is she's supposed to just magically know that, like, oh,
you know, your perfect boyfriend has been here the whole time. No,
it's it's on you to like say something. But you know,
I was young and immature and I didn't understand that,
and I think I did overcompensate. When I got to
(49:37):
my twenties, I started I got really in the self help.
I got in the Eastern spirituality. When the therapy did
a lot of psychedelics, you know, did the whole thing,
started meditating all the time, and it really it I
kind of overcompensated. I became very I did get in
touch with my emotions, but there was like a lot
(49:58):
of anger there and a lot of like resentment, and
and then also like a lot of selfishness came around.
I came out with that, and I think it took
me most of my twenties to kind of like mature
out of that. And honestly, my like Models, my book
was very much it was kind of towards the end
(50:23):
of that journey. Like I think it took me many
many years to learn how to be like I figured
out how to attract women, like relatively early, but it
took me a lot of failed relationships to figure out
how to like actually be a good partner and and
be a good man essentially. And so when I wrote Models,
(50:46):
like I said, I was twenty seven, twenty seven to
twenty eight, and it like it was really the goal
of it was like write the book that I wish
I had read when I was twenty, Like what is
the healthy version of the pick up our artist stuff?
And yeah, it's funny too because I wrote it I
(51:07):
was like when I wrote it, I was like this industry,
I was I was ready to get out of that industry.
I was like pretty sick of it. And I was like, well,
if I'm going to leave the industry, I should like
kind of leave what everybody needs to actually hear. But
they're not hearing. And I was convinced that everybody was
(51:28):
going to hate it when it came out, and they
did initially hate it. It got a lot of I
got a lot of flack in that industry for the
first year or two, and then it kind of took
on a life of its own, and so it's it's
like it's it's been one of the best selling men's
dating books pretty much ever since, and it stills legs. Yeah, yeah,
(51:51):
it still.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
Yeah, it's personally changed my life. So I really appreciate
you writing this and resonating on a frequency I wanted
to resonating on that I wasn't resoning on with the
other stuff in that whole crazy world.
Speaker 2 (52:05):
Yeah, in hindsight, it's funny because it's like it's so obvious.
I mean, as most things are, it's obvious in hindsight
that you know, I was a guy like I was
a mess in my relationships, but I also wanted to
like live and act in integrity. And I like, it's
(52:29):
so obvious to me now that there were thousands and
thousands of men, like most of the men in the
pickup artist space were probably in the same boat, and
they were like, well, I wish I didn't have to
lie and make up stories, but but this is kind
of all that's like in front of me. So I'm
just gonna go with it, you know. So it's in hindsight,
I'm not surprise. It's not surprising that there was so
(52:52):
much demand for it, but you know, at the time
it was it really felt like I was like going
out on a living uh, you know, saying some crazy stuff,
so crazy talk. Be honest with women, I know, be honest,
you're good, you have self respect. I know it's fucking
it's it's insane, but no, I'm very I'm very proud
(53:14):
of the book. And it's like it's it's a as
a very close place in my heart.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
Beautiful. So, in conclusion, you don't have to be an
asshole to attract a woman, No, you don't. And you
also don't have to be a nice guy to attract women.
I think that's a conclusion from both ends. Or not
be yourself and lean into the best parts of yourself.
Speaker 2 (53:36):
I would say that the the nice asshole access is
a different spectrum, is a different access as the attractive
unattractive access. And yeah, you can be an attractive asshole,
you can be an unattractive asshole. You can be a
attractive nice guy, you mean, a unattractive nice guy. Thank
(53:59):
you Mark, Thank you n One?
Speaker 1 (54:04):
What what what? What?
Speaker 2 (54:06):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (54:08):
What nice