May 9, 2024 • 41 mins
This week Scott is joined by NY Times bestselling author, A.J Jacobs, who spent a year living his life living like a founding father down to every single detail— quill pens and all. A.J. reveals what he learned using his adopted colonial mindset, how the constitution affects our lives as well as ways we can interpret it, and the best ways to pursue happiness.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Of course anger was present back in the day. They
wouldn't have revolted against England if they weren't angry. But
at the same time, they were really concerned about trying
to regulate their anger because they knew that if we
just give up, then we're going to be ruled by
our passions. Whatever angry thought pops into our head.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
On this episode of the Psychology Podcast, I chat with
my friend Aj Jacobs, a New York Times bestselling author
and overall ments. The topic of our discussion is AJ's
latest book, The Year of Living Constitutionally. In one sense,
AJ's book is a crash course in how the Constitution
affects our lives and how to interpret it properly. In
(00:48):
another sense, his book is an investigation into what it
means to live a good life and the best way
to pursue happiness. Remarkably, ajs spent a full year adopting
the tools and mindset of the Founding Fathers, Quills and Awe.
It's really incredible what Aj does when he spends a
year exploring something, which he's done over the course of
(01:09):
multiple books, but he picks up something different each time.
I love all of AJ's books and this one is
particularly provocative and enlightening. So, without further ado, I bring
you a J Jacobs.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Hey, J.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Scott, Barry Kaufman. I am so delighted to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Jay, Jay, It's so good. It's so good to have
you back on this psychology podcast. You're always welcome on
this show.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Well, I am a huge fan not only of the
show but also of you as a human being. You
are one of my favorites on Planet Earth.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Well, I really, I really appreciate that. And you've been
and I've been a bigger fan of yours than you've
been a fan of mine.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Technically no longer. I wouldn't say bigger, but longer. You
had read my books before are yours? But now I
caught up.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Well, I love these these year living dot dot dot books.
I guess my question is, how how literal are you
about that?
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Do you?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Do you actually, like three hundred and sixty five days
do it? Because like there's been times where I've like
caught up with you within the year of things and
you're not wearing your you know thing, and you know,
so how does that work?
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Well, by the way I'm gonna put it, I know
this is a podcast my trycorn hat just to get
into care love it. Yeah, sometimes they're longer than a year.
I did one called drop Dead Healthy, where I tried
to be the healthiest personal live physically and mentally, and
that was at least two and a half years because
(02:47):
I needed a lot of work. It was it's hard
to do in a year. This one actually turned out
to be a year because I decided to start it.
It's about the Constitution and politics, and I started it
on election day and ended it on election day, so
that seemed to work out well.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
But but how how much of your day do you
really take it literally for that whole year? Like I
really want to know your normal day when you're in
character for this, Like are we talking like you go
you get dressed up and go to the coffee shop
to write like in your in your outfit, You're in
your like seventeenth century or whatever outfit. Wait, explain this
to me.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, all right, yes that is well, let me back
up and explain the premise and then I'll tell you
how much how much of my day was taken Yeah,
which was all of it? So the premise is about
the Constitution because I realized the Constitution affects every part
of our lives, and I knew nothing about it. I
(03:46):
had not read it top to bottom. I knew the
preamble from Schoolhouse Rock, but I didn't know much about it.
So I thought, one, let me try to understand it
by adopting the mindset and the lifestyle of the founding fathers,
and see what I could learn. So seek what I
can learn about politics, and because that is of course
(04:11):
extremely timely, but also what can I learn? What wisdom
is there from our ancestors that I can learn that
might make my life better, that might help in my
pursuit of happiness, to use their phrase, And also what
ignorance I should leave behind? Because it was a racist, sexist, homophobe.
(04:32):
It was a terrible time in many ways. So I
decided to go all in as I like to do,
as you know, that's my mo. I did it with
the Bible. I tried to live biblically, and I had
the robe and the beard. So this time I had
my tricorn hat I had. I lived by candlelight. I
wrote with a quill pen, so I was literally an
(04:56):
inkstained wretch because my fingers were instantly covered with black.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
If a good quill.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
And I've went down the rabbit hole on trying to
find the best quill pen I could buy for my
own purposes.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
And did you find one?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm just wondering which one you got
that's nerd out on cold pen?
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Well I went, I went full on, which is the
actual goose quill like there were there are ones with
ballpole like that have the little metal part, but this
is an actual goose quill. So and I bought the
feathers and I made it myself because that's what they
would have done. And then I made the ink out
(05:37):
of like you know, wasped nests. So it was a
big there was an element of d y and that
was That is one thing that I think was a positive.
There are a bunch of positive aspects of our our
ancestors that we shaid and one of them is, yeah,
being connected to the items around us. So I I
(06:00):
knew exactly what was in my ink. I made my
own pen uh, And it was in that sense that
was that was quite lovely.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
That is so cool. You did well. You did a
lot of things. You voted by voice I did.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
I did.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
That's how they voted. They there and there was no
secret ballot, and or very very rare secret ballot in
the in the seventeen and eighteen hundreds. People would just
go in and you would announce your vote. So I
thought I would try to vote that way. I don't
recommend it.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
That's not when you tried.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Well there.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Well, I went into my polling station in New York
City and I said I'd like to vote for I
guess it was Governor Kathy Hokeel And they said, don't
say it, don't say it. This is you are. Were
not supposed to talk like that. And I said, yeah,
but the founding, that's the way they did it in
the seventeen nineties. I'm trying to recapture that. They said,
don't We've moved on. We've moved on, which is a
(07:02):
good lesson in some ways we have. I will say
one thing about elections that is I think relevant to
your listeners is about the joy of democracy. Back then,
it was a new thing. The ability to choose your
own leader, to have a participatory vote. That's an astounding
fact that we just take for granted, and so many
(07:26):
of us don't vote. So the idea of trying to
recapture the joy of casting a vote, and it was
like a festival. Then it was like a party, at
least for the privileged few who could vote. So it
was of course racist and sexist, but it also had
(07:46):
an element of festivity. So there was a lot of rum,
punch was served and election cakes. So I tried to
revive the election cake because there was these cakes that
you would come to the vote and you would talk
with your friends about politics and you would and that
I think is something we should recapture. So that's one
(08:06):
of the many aspects of eighteenth century life that I
feel are worthy.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Yeah, no, no, I love it.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
And I got people in every state of the United
States to bake election cakes and bring it to the polls.
And it was one of the most meaningful experiences, I'm
not joking of my life. It was because I was
so depressed by our politics and the divisiveness and a
(08:36):
feeling I couldn't do anything, and this one small gesture,
and I know it was small, but I was able
to connect with hundreds of people around the country. We
felt like we were doing something active by baking this cake.
And you know, even if it's just giving out sweets
to people, it was a reminder that democra is sweet
(09:00):
and we've got a fight to keep it.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Well, yeah, I love it.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
There's like a lot of ways in which was better
back then, obviously a lot of you know, not better
for everyone, as you point out, with all those caveats,
right like slaves weren't enjoying, weren't partying right, but no, yeah, yeah, yeah,
but so all caveats aside. I mean, one thing that
seemed to be better back then was the idea that
(09:26):
that we that the political parties weren't as fractionated and
divisive as they are now. That really really struck me
when I read your book. So you think if they
saw like the State of Union address with like Marjorie
Taylor Green or whatever her name is, with the Trump
hat and like with the the booing and the would
(09:47):
you think that would they'd be like, what's what's what happened?
Speaker 1 (09:51):
I think George Washington would be horrified. He hated factions
and parties, okay, and he tried to stop the They
came around pretty quickly. And yeah, the Jefferson Adams election
of eighteen hundred was quite ugly, but I would say
that they weren't as right now what we have is
(10:16):
a real rigidity of thinking, and it is really disturbing.
As you know, this divisiveness. People are in one camp
or the other, and you're supposed to adopt all of
the beliefs of your tribe, even though there might be
unrelated You know, what does gun control have to do
with abortion? I have to do with not regulating companies.
(10:40):
You know, they are different ideas. So so back then,
I do think there was more of a open mindedness
to changing your changing your mind, a flexibility of mind.
And in fact, one of my favorite anecdotes is that
James Addison, the father of the Constitution, his last words
(11:04):
on Planet Earth were I changed my mind.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
He made a weird face.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
I know, we don't know what it was about what
I mean. It could be like what kind of tea
he likes. It could be the bi cameral legislature.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
And you just don't know.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
I feel like I know what it was.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
I oh, you know what, Come on, tell me.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
No, I think it's obvious that he was referring to
his thoughts on religion.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Oh interesting, Well that is possible, yeah, I mean, but
but what I love is that he he was open
to it, as was Ben Franklin. Ben Franklin my favorite
Founding He really, I mean he had you guys really
(11:53):
would have been friends. I feel that, I mean he was.
He had his flaws, He had his flaws like everyone,
but he was by far the most open minded. And
at the Constitutional Convention he gave a speech at the
end saying that the older he gets, the less sure
he is of his opinions. Wow, and I love. I
(12:15):
try to adopt that. I try to adopt that as
I get older, because it's so easy to fall into.
The older you get, the more sure you are of yourself,
and you surround yourself with people who agree with you,
so you become even more set in your ways. But
not Ben Franklin. And I'm trying to do what Ben Franklin?
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Did? You know?
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Ben Franklin has this whole list of virtues that partly
forms the basis for modern day the modern day science
of character strengths partly, and he used the word he
uses the word trifling a lot. Don't fall prey at trifling,
you know, he uses that word a lot in his
list of virtues you talk about just in general, with
(12:59):
all the Founding fathers, they were really into virtue, it's
particularly the idea of public mindedness. What would be a
modern day understanding of that phrase public mindedness that they
were so interested in.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Well, yes, they really were, and with the caveats that
they had a very small view of what the public was.
They really believed that virtue meant doing good for others,
thinking of others, first, sacrificing the marshmallow test, all that
good stuff. And so virtue now I feel has a
(13:37):
tainted it's virtue signaling. We use that word a lot
to be like, show off how ethical you are, and ask,
you know, how were the bees treated? Who made this?
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Honey?
Speaker 1 (13:49):
That's kind that you're serving me on my pancakes. But
they saw virtue in a different way. They saw it
as being concerned for your fellow human And I love
that because we, I feel, are obsessed with the rights
in the Constitution, which is great, which is great. We're
all about our own personal right. We should be obsessed,
(14:12):
we should be concerned with individual rights. But I think
we have forgotten a lot about the responsibilities and the
duty and what you owe to your community and to
the world. And they didn't they wrote a bill of rights.
They didn't write a bill of responsibilities because people understood
the responsibilities. It was so obvious you didn't need to
(14:35):
spell it out. But when I wrote a constitution for
my for my family, I included a bill of responsibilities
as well as a bill of.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Rights, justice, equality, freedom, and liberty.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
I mean they defined them slightly differently, but yes, they cared.
I mean they were trying to create a better world.
And they got some things right. They got somethings terribly wrong,
but they were really trying. They were really trying, and
really I respect them.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
What did they do to try for equality?
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Well, as you as you point out, they were not
obsessed with equality. You know, they had a very blinkered
view of equality because yeah, it did not include Native Americans,
black people, and women. But they they rejected monarchy and
the idea that the monarch an aristocracy was a higher
(15:41):
was born with privileges, and they hated monarchy and aristocracy.
And that is something that I wish that's another thing
from that era that we should recapture, because for some reason,
we're back to being obsessed with you know, Kate Middleton,
We're back to being obsessed with you know, Prince William
or whoever, and we and the imagery of royalty is everywhere,
(16:07):
like the you know, the.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Burger King.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
They are all these phrases, you know, king size mattress,
Queen size mattress, the King of pop and I think
they would have been appalled. They specifically changed the names
of like King's College changed to Columbia College, which you
taught at, and King's Street we're changed to Congress Street.
(16:32):
King's minuet dance was changed to Congress. They hated the
idea of aristocracy and this idea that you were born
with some sort of advantage. So so in that sense
it was revolutionary because every other country had this idea
that there was a class who deserved to be higher.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Right, so they did hate nobility and the whole concept
of nobility. No, that's a really good exactly. Yeah. I
want to talk about the most recent amendment, which is
the result of a crusade by those, which is the
result of a crusade by a college student who got
a bad grade in his government paper. I didn't know
(17:15):
about that.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yes, Oh, it is hilarious. It is hilarious. Well, I think,
just to give you some background, I thought one of
the conclusions I came away with was everything requires a village,
not just a village. A world like this book that
I wrote could not have been done without researchers and
(17:37):
my editor and you know, the hundreds of people I
talked to and wisdom like yours. But at the same time,
there are cases where one human, one person can make
a huge difference in the world. And I love that
though those are both true, they both there a little paradoxical,
(17:59):
but they're both true. And in this case, it was
a man named Gregory Watson, and this was a few
years ago, I think in the around nineteen ninety and
he was a Texas University student and he got a
bad grade on his essay and the essay was about
a forgotten amendment that James Madison himself wrote in the
(18:23):
seventeen eighties. And the amendment was that Congress should not
be able to give itself pay raises that you have
to the pay raises will only take effect at the
next at the next Congress, which makes sense, like a
totally rational but it only passed. It didn't pass the
required number. You needed three quarters of the states to
(18:46):
sign on, and there were only thirteen states at the time.
But he didn't get to three quarters so Gregory Watson
wrote a paper saying, I think we should revive this.
You know, it makes sense, and it's still alive. It's
like a zombie, a zombie amendment. It never going away.
No one ever said no, So let's try to get
(19:09):
it through. Let's get the other states. You know, now
you need whatever it was, thirty more states. And his
teacher said that it's an idiotic idea, and he was
maybe I don't recommend like revenge being a motivator for good,
but in this case it worked out. He said, I
am going to get this passed. And he spent ten
(19:31):
years sending letters because it was letters at the time,
to state senators all across the country, and eventually it passed.
And that is the last amendment, the twenty seventh Amendment.
And I'm very worried that we're not going to have
a twenty eighth amendment because our country is so divided
and you need some unanimity to get an amendment passed.
(19:54):
And I think it's a big problem. I think the
founders did not want the Constitution to be so hard
to amend. They did not foresee the divisiveness that would
make it so hard to amend. Because they were again,
they were Enlightenment thinkers. They knew that we make mistakes
(20:16):
and they knew we would need to to revise. So
they they were they were much more flexible and open
in some ways than we are now.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yeah, yeah, Well, let's see what other wisdom we can
learn from the Founding fathers. And there's also ignorance that
that we don't replicate.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Ritch we've talked about.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yeah yeah, but let's let's really focus some of the wisdom.
Tell me more about their thoughts on slowing down because
that seems so relevant to our culture today.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Oh yes, I loved this was one of the biggest
lessons of my experience is we need more cold takes
and fewer hot takes. We are a hot take culture
and it is terrible.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
I mean.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
And one way that I experienced this because, as you know,
I was wearing my tricorn hat, I was living by candlelight,
and I wrote instead of on my computer or on
my iPhone, I would write with my quill pen.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
And writing with.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
A quill pen actually changed the way I thought because
it slowed me down. So instead of thumb texting something
you know, and sending it off immediately, you had to
sit down, you had to get out the ink, You
get out the quill, and then you write your thoughts.
You're able to think about it. It's a longer format,
(21:46):
you are and before you send it you have to
you know, I would put wax on it. So it
was like a waiting period for my thoughts, which is
great because I think thoughts need a waiting period, they
need to to slow down instead of just spewing out.
The first thing that comes into your mind, which is
causing so much of the conflict that we have today,
(22:12):
is that we're not able to use some self control.
They were very into self control and governing your passions. Stoicism.
They were very they were very yeah influenced by stoic thoughts.
So I think that is something we need to recapture.
And I don't recommend that we all go back to
(22:34):
quill pens, but I do recommend maybe try writing by
longhand or don't send your send, give a waiting period
for your emails or texts, you know, type them up
and then wait a couple of minutes before you send them.
It just is so important. And I do think they
(22:55):
they thought more deeply then, and they you know, the
it was.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
It was weird.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Do you if you politicians today, you don't hear them
talking about political philosophy and ethical philosophy like they did
back then. They were really remarkable in that way.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yeah, it just really struck me reading your book the
benefits of not living in such a digital age. You've
already mentioned some of the benefits, but I think about
others like you. You talk in your book about the
value they placed on assembling in person, you know, face
to face to hash out ideas. I mean, it's just
that's just you don't see that. It's like Twitter, Twitter,
(23:35):
Twitter discourse would probably be very very confusing to them
and frustrating.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Would you agree, Oh, they would have been appalled by Twitter.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Yeah. But the how uh?
Speaker 1 (23:48):
And and yes, absolutely, one of the rights in the Constitution,
in the first Amendment, is the rights to assemble. So
I tried to express my right to assemble by I
have had an eighteenth century dinner party or two where
I would cook eighteenth century food, like you know, beef
stew and rice pudding, and we'd have madeira and grog
(24:12):
and all this. But I invited people from all over
the political spectrum, and they're like twelve of us, and
we sat down and we had a civil discussion about
what we like about the constitute, what we like about
America and democracy, and what needs to be changed. And
(24:33):
of course there were disagreements, but no one was yelling
or throwing alcoholicy. You know, it was really remarkable, and
everyone emailed me after what a meaningful experience it was, because,
like you say, if they had done it over Twitter,
it would have just been you know, disaster capital letters,
(24:54):
and yeah, it would have been a disaster. So there's that.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
And and also another digital danger I feel is the
news that is piped into our brains eighteen hours a day.
And the news is already has a negative bias, because
who wants to read about all the fires that were prevented.
(25:19):
You want to read about the one fire that burned.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
A house down.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
So it's very I found it extremely troubling for my
own mental health to have this news have negativity in
my face all the time. They would get the newspaper
two to three times a week and that was it,
and the news was much less bias towards the negative.
(25:46):
I remember I spent my time reading newspapers from the
seventeen eighties because it was fascinating. I loved this article
where they talked about.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
This amazing new.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Innovation of numbers on houses. So instead of saying like
it's the it's the house near the big manure pile,
past the windmill. Yeah, and just the jew just that
mad mates realize how much we take for granted too,
which is another like profound lesson for me, is I
(26:21):
take so much for house numbers. I take socks for granted.
I would wear these. I tried to dress like them,
so I had my tricorn hat and I would wear
these socks. But they were knitted socks, wooll knitted socks
that went up to my knees, and they didn't have elastic.
(26:42):
And when you don't have elastic, the socks sort of
slide down and form a puddle around your ankles. So
every day you have to put on not garters. They're
sort of like garters, but they're not even as sophistic.
They're little belts. They look like belts for tiny people,
and you have to put a belt around on your
sock so it doesn't slide down your leg. And that
(27:03):
took a lot of time. So I will never take
elastic for granted. Again an order the dishwasher, the amount
of time that you've spent trying I mean, think about
trying to wash dishes like they did. It's not just
in the sink. They didn't have water in their kitchen.
They would have to go out to the well, get
a bunch of water, bring it back or bring the
(27:25):
dishes there, and to use things like vinegar and sand
to try to clean it off. I mean it was
they were working on every part of life, required steps
and preparation that we can't even imagine.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Yeah, I mean there's a lot of profound things there
about the things we take for granted, which really dovetails
nicely with your prior book on gratitude.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
I think that quit.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Oh sorry, I was going to say, which quotes one
of my favorite psychologists and philosopher, Scott Barry Kaufman, who Yeah,
you you had some great things to say about savoring
and slowing down time in the Gratitude book. So I
am grateful for you.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Well, I'm very grateful that you solicited a quote in
the first place, So thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
And you're in my puzzle book. I quoted you in
my puzzle book, So yeah, well you were you weren't
you didn't make this one. I'm sorry. I am sorry
if you would No, it's okay. If you were from
the eighteenth century, I would have.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it wasn't as relevant. But I know
I have a lot. I have a lot of gratude
that you considered me a worthy source.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Yeah, of course this one.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
There's a lot of little quirky things in this one,
as as you are. And like the Pillory, you know,
like you bought a wooden pillary off Etsy, they actually
sell it.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Oh yeah, that was a bizarre one. And this was
because one of the goals of the book was to
try to express my rights the way they were expressed
in the seventeen eighties. So when I instead for my
first amendment, freedom of speech, I wrote with a quill.
(29:21):
I wrote pamphlets and handed of them out on the
street instead of writing tweets. Now, the eighth Amendment of
the Constitution says that there should be no cruel and
unusual punishments. And at the time, in seventeen eighty nine,
what they considered cruel and unusual was very different from
(29:45):
what we consider cruel and unusual. So something like the
Pillory was considered just fine. So it made me realize
how much we have evolved morally, Like there is a
lot of pessimism out there. But so yeah, And a pillary,
as you might know, or is a wooden contraption where
(30:08):
you put your arms and head in and you would
be in the town square. And it was awful. It
was just I mean, it's not like where you go
to Williamsburg and take a photo. It was people were
throwing rocks at you, they were throwing dung in your face,
(30:29):
they were hitting you, and it was you know, it
was truly And I do not like shame based punishment.
I think it is a terrible thing. I think that's
another problem with digital culture, is brought back shame based punishment,
like on the Internet book by John Ronson. Yeah, it's terrible.
(30:50):
So we have a digital pillary now at least we
don't have a physical one. But anyway, I just sort
of on a lark, I bought a pillary from a
place that sold it. They sold more like. It wasn't
a punishment. It was more for adult dungeons of you know,
people who enjoyed pleasure.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Pleasure you consider, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Exactly, it was for pleasure. And I so I bought
it and they sent it to me. One irony is
that they they said, do you want a neoprene padding
around the neck hole to make it more comfortable? And
I said, well, that kind of defeats the purpose of
the pillory.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Right I.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
I wouldn't put it on anyone but myself, I because
it would just feel weird to me. But I did
put myself and my wife lock me in the pillary
for a few minutes, just to try to get a
sense of what it might feel like.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
And it was.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
You know, at first I was giggling. It was so
silly and absurd, and then I started to feel like
a little bit unnerved by my lack of ability to move.
And yeah, so she let me out. I'm I had
to promise to fold my sweaters. So she used it
as a bargaining chip, but it was I guess the
(32:16):
lessons were again, how far we've come in punishment and
we still have a long way to go. And also, yeah,
I mean, I'm glad that you can buy this on
the internet for people who like it, but I'm glad
that it's not used as something at least in our country.
(32:37):
I know that there are parts of the world where
things like that are still used, and that is something
we need.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
To work on.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
But you didn't go out in public and do public shaming.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Not with that, I mean, originally I thought about it,
but I thought that's enough. I mean, I did a
lot of other things in public that were crazy, and yeah,
I mean I well, I bore a musket.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
That was one of them.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Because the Constitution talks about the right to bear arms,
and at the time, in seventeen eighty nine, arms were
mostly muskets. They also had some others. But so I thought, well,
what did what would it feel like to walk around
New York City's Upper West Side bearing a musket?
Speaker 3 (33:24):
And it was weird. It was weird. It was I was.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
I got a lot of people who steered away, who like,
I mean, I'll give you one. One advantage is I
went into my coffee shop and I was waiting in line,
and the guy in front of me said, you go first.
I don't want to. I don't want to hold you up.
I don't want to hold up a guy with a musket.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
You go first. So it did did he say that?
Speaker 2 (33:52):
He said that? Oh?
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Yeah, no, he was like, you go first, man. I
not with that thing I do not want to be
in front of you. So that was that was nice,
But the bigger point was how how should we think
about the Second Amendment. I don't have any concrete answers,
but it gave me some perspective. And the question is
(34:19):
how it is such a different weapon than a semi
automatic on nowadays. So at what point does it become
so different that the laws don't apply in the same way.
It's like if you write a law for a bicycle
and then we invent a, you know, a massive truck,
(34:42):
at what point does do we need a different law?
So that was what and I actually with the musket,
I used it. I went out a few times. First
I joined a Revolutionary War re enactment group, which was
fascinating and wonderful, and I went and I fought in
the Battle of Monmouth in New Jersey the reenactment. I
(35:07):
died for our country. I was shot by British troops,
but I died in the shade, and I was like
kind of RESTful, so it wasn't so bad. But I
also went to a shooting range with my regiment of reenactors,
and shooting a musket is fascinating because it is fifteen
eighteen steps. You have to bite off the top of
(35:29):
a piece of paper and poured the gunpowder down. You
have to pull back the all sorts of gadgets is
a It is not something you can do. It took
me many minutes. In the Revolutionary War, soldiers could actually
do three or four shots a minute, which is remarkable.
(35:50):
But that's still quite different from today's guns, where you
can shoot dozens of rounds per minute. So it was anyway,
the whole thing was fascinating, and and I tried to
present a balanced view of of gun rights. I mean,
I am a sort of a default liberal, so I
do believe in more restriction and more regulation, I guess
(36:16):
I should say, but I wanted to. I didn't want
to just preach to the choir. I wanted to explore
these issues in a way that people on both sides
would stop and think and slow down, like we said,
and slow down and try to come to a solution
(36:37):
that would that that is workable and that will make
the world better.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Well, I love that, Oh, I love that.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
Well.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Any kind of last ideas regarding what you've learned from
about human psychology, you know, wisdom on how to live
your best life.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Well one, I'm I mean just to stress that helping
others was such a huge part of the way they
saw life, the idea of sacrifice and regulating your emotions.
I mean, I think I think that anger it's complicated
(37:21):
because of course anger was present back in the day.
They wouldn't have revolted against England if they weren't angry.
But at the same time, they were really concerned about
trying to regulate their anger because like they would regulate
the government, they wanted to control their passions. And they
(37:43):
knew that humans are if we just give up, then
we're going to be ruled by our passions, whatever angry
thought pops into our head. And George Washington is famous
for us because he was born with a temper, that guy,
but he spent all of his life to control his temper.
And there's one story which I think is true. It's
(38:05):
not like one of the apocryphal chopping down the cherry
tree stories. This one, according to historians, actually happened where
it was very early in his political life and one
of his opponents hit him physically with a stick with
a hickory stick, and the next day Washington challenge asked
(38:25):
the guy to meet him at a tavern. The other
politician figured they were going to have a fight, a
real knockdown, drag out fight, but instead Washington extended his
hand in friendship and said, let's forgive and forget and
take the high road. And that is just amazing. I mean,
that is something that.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
How would you rank the top three of all of
the living a year? Things like? Where does this one
rank in all of them? Was this one of your favorites?
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Yeah, this was one of my favorites, just because I
got to learn so much be it was so relevant
because every day there's another news story about the Constitution
that's gonna change our lives and change the pile. So
I loved I loved some of the you know, writing
by candlelight. Candles are lovely, candles are underestimate. We should
(39:18):
do more of that. So I would put it in
the top three. Certainly the Bible one. I spent a
year trying to live by all the rules of the Bible,
and some of that was horrible. Like, you know, I
had a very itchy, scratchy beard practically down to my navel.
I had to you know, it was I couldn't touch
(39:40):
my wife during certain times and from the month, so
it had its huge downsides, but at the same time
I learned a lot about gratitude and humility from that
project and ritual, the joy of ritual. And then I
guess the third of my favorite was the Gratitude Book
(40:02):
featuring Scott Barry Kaufman.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
I loved that.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
Just because that, you know, I still work every day
at trying to be grateful for all the hundreds of
small things that happen instead of focusing on the three
or four that go wrong, all the small things that
go right, I mean, instead of the three or four
that go wrong. And it's a daily struggle, but it
(40:30):
really improves my life.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
Yeah, there's an exercise and positive coology three good things
before you go to bed that you write down. Well,
hey man, this is really another elucidating conversation. Do you
know what your next year living a year is going
to be?
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Like?
Speaker 3 (40:50):
I don't I need a break?
Speaker 1 (40:52):
I need to Yeah, I need a little I'm doing
as you know, the Puzzler, which which is a podcast
and which was a wonderful guest on so listen to that,
and so yeah, that keeps that's a daily podcast, so
that keeps me busy.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
You are such a good friend, Ajay, you really are
such a good friend. Really really really appreciate you well,
all the best on this book tour. Really enjoyed this
book as I enjoy all your books, quite frankly, and
I wish you all the all the best with it.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
Thank you, Scott, you too.
Of course anger was present back in the day. They
wouldn't have revolted against England if they weren't angry. But
at the same time, they were really concerned about trying
to regulate their anger because they knew that if we
just give up, then we're going to be ruled by
our passions. Whatever angry thought pops into our head.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
On this episode of the Psychology Podcast, I chat with
my friend Aj Jacobs, a New York Times bestselling author
and overall ments. The topic of our discussion is AJ's
latest book, The Year of Living Constitutionally. In one sense,
AJ's book is a crash course in how the Constitution
affects our lives and how to interpret it properly. In
(00:48):
another sense, his book is an investigation into what it
means to live a good life and the best way
to pursue happiness. Remarkably, ajs spent a full year adopting
the tools and mindset of the Founding Fathers, Quills and Awe.
It's really incredible what Aj does when he spends a
year exploring something, which he's done over the course of
(01:09):
multiple books, but he picks up something different each time.
I love all of AJ's books and this one is
particularly provocative and enlightening. So, without further ado, I bring
you a J Jacobs.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Hey, J.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Scott, Barry Kaufman. I am so delighted to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Jay, Jay, It's so good. It's so good to have
you back on this psychology podcast. You're always welcome on
this show.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Well, I am a huge fan not only of the
show but also of you as a human being. You
are one of my favorites on Planet Earth.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Well, I really, I really appreciate that. And you've been
and I've been a bigger fan of yours than you've
been a fan of mine.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Technically no longer. I wouldn't say bigger, but longer. You
had read my books before are yours? But now I
caught up.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Well, I love these these year living dot dot dot books.
I guess my question is, how how literal are you
about that?
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Do you?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Do you actually, like three hundred and sixty five days
do it? Because like there's been times where I've like
caught up with you within the year of things and
you're not wearing your you know thing, and you know,
so how does that work?
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Well, by the way I'm gonna put it, I know
this is a podcast my trycorn hat just to get
into care love it. Yeah, sometimes they're longer than a year.
I did one called drop Dead Healthy, where I tried
to be the healthiest personal live physically and mentally, and
that was at least two and a half years because
(02:47):
I needed a lot of work. It was it's hard
to do in a year. This one actually turned out
to be a year because I decided to start it.
It's about the Constitution and politics, and I started it
on election day and ended it on election day, so
that seemed to work out well.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
But but how how much of your day do you
really take it literally for that whole year? Like I
really want to know your normal day when you're in
character for this, Like are we talking like you go
you get dressed up and go to the coffee shop
to write like in your in your outfit, You're in
your like seventeenth century or whatever outfit. Wait, explain this
to me.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, all right, yes that is well, let me back
up and explain the premise and then I'll tell you
how much how much of my day was taken Yeah,
which was all of it? So the premise is about
the Constitution because I realized the Constitution affects every part
of our lives, and I knew nothing about it. I
(03:46):
had not read it top to bottom. I knew the
preamble from Schoolhouse Rock, but I didn't know much about it.
So I thought, one, let me try to understand it
by adopting the mindset and the lifestyle of the founding fathers,
and see what I could learn. So seek what I
can learn about politics, and because that is of course
(04:11):
extremely timely, but also what can I learn? What wisdom
is there from our ancestors that I can learn that
might make my life better, that might help in my
pursuit of happiness, to use their phrase, And also what
ignorance I should leave behind? Because it was a racist, sexist, homophobe.
(04:32):
It was a terrible time in many ways. So I
decided to go all in as I like to do,
as you know, that's my mo. I did it with
the Bible. I tried to live biblically, and I had
the robe and the beard. So this time I had
my tricorn hat I had. I lived by candlelight. I
wrote with a quill pen, so I was literally an
(04:56):
inkstained wretch because my fingers were instantly covered with black.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
If a good quill.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
And I've went down the rabbit hole on trying to
find the best quill pen I could buy for my
own purposes.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
And did you find one?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm just wondering which one you got
that's nerd out on cold pen?
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Well I went, I went full on, which is the
actual goose quill like there were there are ones with
ballpole like that have the little metal part, but this
is an actual goose quill. So and I bought the
feathers and I made it myself because that's what they
would have done. And then I made the ink out
(05:37):
of like you know, wasped nests. So it was a
big there was an element of d y and that
was That is one thing that I think was a positive.
There are a bunch of positive aspects of our our
ancestors that we shaid and one of them is, yeah,
being connected to the items around us. So I I
(06:00):
knew exactly what was in my ink. I made my
own pen uh, And it was in that sense that
was that was quite lovely.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
That is so cool. You did well. You did a
lot of things. You voted by voice I did.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
I did.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
That's how they voted. They there and there was no
secret ballot, and or very very rare secret ballot in
the in the seventeen and eighteen hundreds. People would just
go in and you would announce your vote. So I
thought I would try to vote that way. I don't
recommend it.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
That's not when you tried.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Well there.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Well, I went into my polling station in New York
City and I said I'd like to vote for I
guess it was Governor Kathy Hokeel And they said, don't
say it, don't say it. This is you are. Were
not supposed to talk like that. And I said, yeah,
but the founding, that's the way they did it in
the seventeen nineties. I'm trying to recapture that. They said,
don't We've moved on. We've moved on, which is a
(07:02):
good lesson in some ways we have. I will say
one thing about elections that is I think relevant to
your listeners is about the joy of democracy. Back then,
it was a new thing. The ability to choose your
own leader, to have a participatory vote. That's an astounding
fact that we just take for granted, and so many
(07:26):
of us don't vote. So the idea of trying to
recapture the joy of casting a vote, and it was
like a festival. Then it was like a party, at
least for the privileged few who could vote. So it
was of course racist and sexist, but it also had
(07:46):
an element of festivity. So there was a lot of rum,
punch was served and election cakes. So I tried to
revive the election cake because there was these cakes that
you would come to the vote and you would talk
with your friends about politics and you would and that
I think is something we should recapture. So that's one
(08:06):
of the many aspects of eighteenth century life that I
feel are worthy.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Yeah, no, no, I love it.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
And I got people in every state of the United
States to bake election cakes and bring it to the polls.
And it was one of the most meaningful experiences, I'm
not joking of my life. It was because I was
so depressed by our politics and the divisiveness and a
(08:36):
feeling I couldn't do anything, and this one small gesture,
and I know it was small, but I was able
to connect with hundreds of people around the country. We
felt like we were doing something active by baking this cake.
And you know, even if it's just giving out sweets
to people, it was a reminder that democra is sweet
(09:00):
and we've got a fight to keep it.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Well, yeah, I love it.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
There's like a lot of ways in which was better
back then, obviously a lot of you know, not better
for everyone, as you point out, with all those caveats,
right like slaves weren't enjoying, weren't partying right, but no, yeah, yeah, yeah,
but so all caveats aside. I mean, one thing that
seemed to be better back then was the idea that
(09:26):
that we that the political parties weren't as fractionated and
divisive as they are now. That really really struck me
when I read your book. So you think if they
saw like the State of Union address with like Marjorie
Taylor Green or whatever her name is, with the Trump
hat and like with the the booing and the would
(09:47):
you think that would they'd be like, what's what's what happened?
Speaker 1 (09:51):
I think George Washington would be horrified. He hated factions
and parties, okay, and he tried to stop the They
came around pretty quickly. And yeah, the Jefferson Adams election
of eighteen hundred was quite ugly, but I would say
that they weren't as right now what we have is
(10:16):
a real rigidity of thinking, and it is really disturbing.
As you know, this divisiveness. People are in one camp
or the other, and you're supposed to adopt all of
the beliefs of your tribe, even though there might be
unrelated You know, what does gun control have to do
with abortion? I have to do with not regulating companies.
(10:40):
You know, they are different ideas. So so back then,
I do think there was more of a open mindedness
to changing your changing your mind, a flexibility of mind.
And in fact, one of my favorite anecdotes is that
James Addison, the father of the Constitution, his last words
(11:04):
on Planet Earth were I changed my mind.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
He made a weird face.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
I know, we don't know what it was about what
I mean. It could be like what kind of tea
he likes. It could be the bi cameral legislature.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
And you just don't know.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
I feel like I know what it was.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
I oh, you know what, Come on, tell me.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
No, I think it's obvious that he was referring to
his thoughts on religion.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Oh interesting, Well that is possible, yeah, I mean, but
but what I love is that he he was open
to it, as was Ben Franklin. Ben Franklin my favorite
Founding He really, I mean he had you guys really
(11:53):
would have been friends. I feel that, I mean he was.
He had his flaws, He had his flaws like everyone,
but he was by far the most open minded. And
at the Constitutional Convention he gave a speech at the
end saying that the older he gets, the less sure
he is of his opinions. Wow, and I love. I
(12:15):
try to adopt that. I try to adopt that as
I get older, because it's so easy to fall into.
The older you get, the more sure you are of yourself,
and you surround yourself with people who agree with you,
so you become even more set in your ways. But
not Ben Franklin. And I'm trying to do what Ben Franklin?
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Did? You know?
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Ben Franklin has this whole list of virtues that partly
forms the basis for modern day the modern day science
of character strengths partly, and he used the word he
uses the word trifling a lot. Don't fall prey at trifling,
you know, he uses that word a lot in his
list of virtues you talk about just in general, with
(12:59):
all the Founding fathers, they were really into virtue, it's
particularly the idea of public mindedness. What would be a
modern day understanding of that phrase public mindedness that they
were so interested in.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Well, yes, they really were, and with the caveats that
they had a very small view of what the public was.
They really believed that virtue meant doing good for others,
thinking of others, first, sacrificing the marshmallow test, all that
good stuff. And so virtue now I feel has a
(13:37):
tainted it's virtue signaling. We use that word a lot
to be like, show off how ethical you are, and ask,
you know, how were the bees treated? Who made this?
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Honey?
Speaker 1 (13:49):
That's kind that you're serving me on my pancakes. But
they saw virtue in a different way. They saw it
as being concerned for your fellow human And I love
that because we, I feel, are obsessed with the rights
in the Constitution, which is great, which is great. We're
all about our own personal right. We should be obsessed,
(14:12):
we should be concerned with individual rights. But I think
we have forgotten a lot about the responsibilities and the
duty and what you owe to your community and to
the world. And they didn't they wrote a bill of rights.
They didn't write a bill of responsibilities because people understood
the responsibilities. It was so obvious you didn't need to
(14:35):
spell it out. But when I wrote a constitution for
my for my family, I included a bill of responsibilities
as well as a bill of.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Rights, justice, equality, freedom, and liberty.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
I mean they defined them slightly differently, but yes, they cared.
I mean they were trying to create a better world.
And they got some things right. They got somethings terribly wrong,
but they were really trying. They were really trying, and
really I respect them.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
What did they do to try for equality?
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Well, as you as you point out, they were not
obsessed with equality. You know, they had a very blinkered
view of equality because yeah, it did not include Native Americans,
black people, and women. But they they rejected monarchy and
the idea that the monarch an aristocracy was a higher
(15:41):
was born with privileges, and they hated monarchy and aristocracy.
And that is something that I wish that's another thing
from that era that we should recapture, because for some reason,
we're back to being obsessed with you know, Kate Middleton,
We're back to being obsessed with you know, Prince William
or whoever, and we and the imagery of royalty is everywhere,
(16:07):
like the you know, the.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Burger King.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
They are all these phrases, you know, king size mattress,
Queen size mattress, the King of pop and I think
they would have been appalled. They specifically changed the names
of like King's College changed to Columbia College, which you
taught at, and King's Street we're changed to Congress Street.
(16:32):
King's minuet dance was changed to Congress. They hated the
idea of aristocracy and this idea that you were born
with some sort of advantage. So so in that sense
it was revolutionary because every other country had this idea
that there was a class who deserved to be higher.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Right, so they did hate nobility and the whole concept
of nobility. No, that's a really good exactly. Yeah. I
want to talk about the most recent amendment, which is
the result of a crusade by those, which is the
result of a crusade by a college student who got
a bad grade in his government paper. I didn't know
(17:15):
about that.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yes, Oh, it is hilarious. It is hilarious. Well, I think,
just to give you some background, I thought one of
the conclusions I came away with was everything requires a village,
not just a village. A world like this book that
I wrote could not have been done without researchers and
(17:37):
my editor and you know, the hundreds of people I
talked to and wisdom like yours. But at the same time,
there are cases where one human, one person can make
a huge difference in the world. And I love that
though those are both true, they both there a little paradoxical,
(17:59):
but they're both true. And in this case, it was
a man named Gregory Watson, and this was a few
years ago, I think in the around nineteen ninety and
he was a Texas University student and he got a
bad grade on his essay and the essay was about
a forgotten amendment that James Madison himself wrote in the
(18:23):
seventeen eighties. And the amendment was that Congress should not
be able to give itself pay raises that you have
to the pay raises will only take effect at the
next at the next Congress, which makes sense, like a
totally rational but it only passed. It didn't pass the
required number. You needed three quarters of the states to
(18:46):
sign on, and there were only thirteen states at the time.
But he didn't get to three quarters so Gregory Watson
wrote a paper saying, I think we should revive this.
You know, it makes sense, and it's still alive. It's
like a zombie, a zombie amendment. It never going away.
No one ever said no, So let's try to get
(19:09):
it through. Let's get the other states. You know, now
you need whatever it was, thirty more states. And his
teacher said that it's an idiotic idea, and he was
maybe I don't recommend like revenge being a motivator for good,
but in this case it worked out. He said, I
am going to get this passed. And he spent ten
(19:31):
years sending letters because it was letters at the time,
to state senators all across the country, and eventually it passed.
And that is the last amendment, the twenty seventh Amendment.
And I'm very worried that we're not going to have
a twenty eighth amendment because our country is so divided
and you need some unanimity to get an amendment passed.
(19:54):
And I think it's a big problem. I think the
founders did not want the Constitution to be so hard
to amend. They did not foresee the divisiveness that would
make it so hard to amend. Because they were again,
they were Enlightenment thinkers. They knew that we make mistakes
(20:16):
and they knew we would need to to revise. So
they they were they were much more flexible and open
in some ways than we are now.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yeah, yeah, Well, let's see what other wisdom we can
learn from the Founding fathers. And there's also ignorance that
that we don't replicate.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Ritch we've talked about.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yeah yeah, but let's let's really focus some of the wisdom.
Tell me more about their thoughts on slowing down because
that seems so relevant to our culture today.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Oh yes, I loved this was one of the biggest
lessons of my experience is we need more cold takes
and fewer hot takes. We are a hot take culture
and it is terrible.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
I mean.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
And one way that I experienced this because, as you know,
I was wearing my tricorn hat, I was living by candlelight,
and I wrote instead of on my computer or on
my iPhone, I would write with my quill pen.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
And writing with.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
A quill pen actually changed the way I thought because
it slowed me down. So instead of thumb texting something
you know, and sending it off immediately, you had to
sit down, you had to get out the ink, You
get out the quill, and then you write your thoughts.
You're able to think about it. It's a longer format,
(21:46):
you are and before you send it you have to
you know, I would put wax on it. So it
was like a waiting period for my thoughts, which is
great because I think thoughts need a waiting period, they
need to to slow down instead of just spewing out.
The first thing that comes into your mind, which is
causing so much of the conflict that we have today,
(22:12):
is that we're not able to use some self control.
They were very into self control and governing your passions. Stoicism.
They were very they were very yeah influenced by stoic thoughts.
So I think that is something we need to recapture.
And I don't recommend that we all go back to
(22:34):
quill pens, but I do recommend maybe try writing by
longhand or don't send your send, give a waiting period
for your emails or texts, you know, type them up
and then wait a couple of minutes before you send them.
It just is so important. And I do think they
(22:55):
they thought more deeply then, and they you know, the
it was.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
It was weird.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Do you if you politicians today, you don't hear them
talking about political philosophy and ethical philosophy like they did
back then. They were really remarkable in that way.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yeah, it just really struck me reading your book the
benefits of not living in such a digital age. You've
already mentioned some of the benefits, but I think about
others like you. You talk in your book about the
value they placed on assembling in person, you know, face
to face to hash out ideas. I mean, it's just
that's just you don't see that. It's like Twitter, Twitter,
(23:35):
Twitter discourse would probably be very very confusing to them
and frustrating.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Would you agree, Oh, they would have been appalled by Twitter.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Yeah. But the how uh?
Speaker 1 (23:48):
And and yes, absolutely, one of the rights in the Constitution,
in the first Amendment, is the rights to assemble. So
I tried to express my right to assemble by I
have had an eighteenth century dinner party or two where
I would cook eighteenth century food, like you know, beef
stew and rice pudding, and we'd have madeira and grog
(24:12):
and all this. But I invited people from all over
the political spectrum, and they're like twelve of us, and
we sat down and we had a civil discussion about
what we like about the constitute, what we like about
America and democracy, and what needs to be changed. And
(24:33):
of course there were disagreements, but no one was yelling
or throwing alcoholicy. You know, it was really remarkable, and
everyone emailed me after what a meaningful experience it was, because,
like you say, if they had done it over Twitter,
it would have just been you know, disaster capital letters,
(24:54):
and yeah, it would have been a disaster. So there's that.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
And and also another digital danger I feel is the
news that is piped into our brains eighteen hours a day.
And the news is already has a negative bias, because
who wants to read about all the fires that were prevented.
(25:19):
You want to read about the one fire that burned.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
A house down.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
So it's very I found it extremely troubling for my
own mental health to have this news have negativity in
my face all the time. They would get the newspaper
two to three times a week and that was it,
and the news was much less bias towards the negative.
(25:46):
I remember I spent my time reading newspapers from the
seventeen eighties because it was fascinating. I loved this article
where they talked about.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
This amazing new.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Innovation of numbers on houses. So instead of saying like
it's the it's the house near the big manure pile,
past the windmill. Yeah, and just the jew just that
mad mates realize how much we take for granted too,
which is another like profound lesson for me, is I
(26:21):
take so much for house numbers. I take socks for granted.
I would wear these. I tried to dress like them,
so I had my tricorn hat and I would wear
these socks. But they were knitted socks, wooll knitted socks
that went up to my knees, and they didn't have elastic.
(26:42):
And when you don't have elastic, the socks sort of
slide down and form a puddle around your ankles. So
every day you have to put on not garters. They're
sort of like garters, but they're not even as sophistic.
They're little belts. They look like belts for tiny people,
and you have to put a belt around on your
sock so it doesn't slide down your leg. And that
(27:03):
took a lot of time. So I will never take
elastic for granted. Again an order the dishwasher, the amount
of time that you've spent trying I mean, think about
trying to wash dishes like they did. It's not just
in the sink. They didn't have water in their kitchen.
They would have to go out to the well, get
a bunch of water, bring it back or bring the
(27:25):
dishes there, and to use things like vinegar and sand
to try to clean it off. I mean it was
they were working on every part of life, required steps
and preparation that we can't even imagine.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Yeah, I mean there's a lot of profound things there
about the things we take for granted, which really dovetails
nicely with your prior book on gratitude.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
I think that quit.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Oh sorry, I was going to say, which quotes one
of my favorite psychologists and philosopher, Scott Barry Kaufman, who Yeah,
you you had some great things to say about savoring
and slowing down time in the Gratitude book. So I
am grateful for you.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Well, I'm very grateful that you solicited a quote in
the first place, So thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
And you're in my puzzle book. I quoted you in
my puzzle book, So yeah, well you were you weren't
you didn't make this one. I'm sorry. I am sorry
if you would No, it's okay. If you were from
the eighteenth century, I would have.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it wasn't as relevant. But I know
I have a lot. I have a lot of gratude
that you considered me a worthy source.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Yeah, of course this one.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
There's a lot of little quirky things in this one,
as as you are. And like the Pillory, you know,
like you bought a wooden pillary off Etsy, they actually
sell it.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Oh yeah, that was a bizarre one. And this was
because one of the goals of the book was to
try to express my rights the way they were expressed
in the seventeen eighties. So when I instead for my
first amendment, freedom of speech, I wrote with a quill.
(29:21):
I wrote pamphlets and handed of them out on the
street instead of writing tweets. Now, the eighth Amendment of
the Constitution says that there should be no cruel and
unusual punishments. And at the time, in seventeen eighty nine,
what they considered cruel and unusual was very different from
(29:45):
what we consider cruel and unusual. So something like the
Pillory was considered just fine. So it made me realize
how much we have evolved morally, Like there is a
lot of pessimism out there. But so yeah, And a pillary,
as you might know, or is a wooden contraption where
(30:08):
you put your arms and head in and you would
be in the town square. And it was awful. It
was just I mean, it's not like where you go
to Williamsburg and take a photo. It was people were
throwing rocks at you, they were throwing dung in your face,
(30:29):
they were hitting you, and it was you know, it
was truly And I do not like shame based punishment.
I think it is a terrible thing. I think that's
another problem with digital culture, is brought back shame based punishment,
like on the Internet book by John Ronson. Yeah, it's terrible.
(30:50):
So we have a digital pillary now at least we
don't have a physical one. But anyway, I just sort
of on a lark, I bought a pillary from a
place that sold it. They sold more like. It wasn't
a punishment. It was more for adult dungeons of you know,
people who enjoyed pleasure.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Pleasure you consider, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Exactly, it was for pleasure. And I so I bought
it and they sent it to me. One irony is
that they they said, do you want a neoprene padding
around the neck hole to make it more comfortable? And
I said, well, that kind of defeats the purpose of
the pillory.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Right I.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
I wouldn't put it on anyone but myself, I because
it would just feel weird to me. But I did
put myself and my wife lock me in the pillary
for a few minutes, just to try to get a
sense of what it might feel like.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
And it was.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
You know, at first I was giggling. It was so
silly and absurd, and then I started to feel like
a little bit unnerved by my lack of ability to move.
And yeah, so she let me out. I'm I had
to promise to fold my sweaters. So she used it
as a bargaining chip, but it was I guess the
(32:16):
lessons were again, how far we've come in punishment and
we still have a long way to go. And also, yeah,
I mean, I'm glad that you can buy this on
the internet for people who like it, but I'm glad
that it's not used as something at least in our country.
(32:37):
I know that there are parts of the world where
things like that are still used, and that is something
we need.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
To work on.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
But you didn't go out in public and do public shaming.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Not with that, I mean, originally I thought about it,
but I thought that's enough. I mean, I did a
lot of other things in public that were crazy, and yeah,
I mean I well, I bore a musket.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
That was one of them.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Because the Constitution talks about the right to bear arms,
and at the time, in seventeen eighty nine, arms were
mostly muskets. They also had some others. But so I thought, well,
what did what would it feel like to walk around
New York City's Upper West Side bearing a musket?
Speaker 3 (33:24):
And it was weird. It was weird. It was I was.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
I got a lot of people who steered away, who like,
I mean, I'll give you one. One advantage is I
went into my coffee shop and I was waiting in line,
and the guy in front of me said, you go first.
I don't want to. I don't want to hold you up.
I don't want to hold up a guy with a musket.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
You go first. So it did did he say that?
Speaker 2 (33:52):
He said that? Oh?
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Yeah, no, he was like, you go first, man. I
not with that thing I do not want to be
in front of you. So that was that was nice,
But the bigger point was how how should we think
about the Second Amendment. I don't have any concrete answers,
but it gave me some perspective. And the question is
(34:19):
how it is such a different weapon than a semi
automatic on nowadays. So at what point does it become
so different that the laws don't apply in the same way.
It's like if you write a law for a bicycle
and then we invent a, you know, a massive truck,
(34:42):
at what point does do we need a different law?
So that was what and I actually with the musket,
I used it. I went out a few times. First
I joined a Revolutionary War re enactment group, which was
fascinating and wonderful, and I went and I fought in
the Battle of Monmouth in New Jersey the reenactment. I
(35:07):
died for our country. I was shot by British troops,
but I died in the shade, and I was like
kind of RESTful, so it wasn't so bad. But I
also went to a shooting range with my regiment of reenactors,
and shooting a musket is fascinating because it is fifteen
eighteen steps. You have to bite off the top of
(35:29):
a piece of paper and poured the gunpowder down. You
have to pull back the all sorts of gadgets is
a It is not something you can do. It took
me many minutes. In the Revolutionary War, soldiers could actually
do three or four shots a minute, which is remarkable.
(35:50):
But that's still quite different from today's guns, where you
can shoot dozens of rounds per minute. So it was anyway,
the whole thing was fascinating, and and I tried to
present a balanced view of of gun rights. I mean,
I am a sort of a default liberal, so I
do believe in more restriction and more regulation, I guess
(36:16):
I should say, but I wanted to. I didn't want
to just preach to the choir. I wanted to explore
these issues in a way that people on both sides
would stop and think and slow down, like we said,
and slow down and try to come to a solution
(36:37):
that would that that is workable and that will make
the world better.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Well, I love that, Oh, I love that.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
Well.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Any kind of last ideas regarding what you've learned from
about human psychology, you know, wisdom on how to live
your best life.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Well one, I'm I mean just to stress that helping
others was such a huge part of the way they
saw life, the idea of sacrifice and regulating your emotions.
I mean, I think I think that anger it's complicated
(37:21):
because of course anger was present back in the day.
They wouldn't have revolted against England if they weren't angry.
But at the same time, they were really concerned about
trying to regulate their anger because like they would regulate
the government, they wanted to control their passions. And they
(37:43):
knew that humans are if we just give up, then
we're going to be ruled by our passions, whatever angry
thought pops into our head. And George Washington is famous
for us because he was born with a temper, that guy,
but he spent all of his life to control his temper.
And there's one story which I think is true. It's
(38:05):
not like one of the apocryphal chopping down the cherry
tree stories. This one, according to historians, actually happened where
it was very early in his political life and one
of his opponents hit him physically with a stick with
a hickory stick, and the next day Washington challenge asked
(38:25):
the guy to meet him at a tavern. The other
politician figured they were going to have a fight, a
real knockdown, drag out fight, but instead Washington extended his
hand in friendship and said, let's forgive and forget and
take the high road. And that is just amazing. I mean,
that is something that.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
How would you rank the top three of all of
the living a year? Things like? Where does this one
rank in all of them? Was this one of your favorites?
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Yeah, this was one of my favorites, just because I
got to learn so much be it was so relevant
because every day there's another news story about the Constitution
that's gonna change our lives and change the pile. So
I loved I loved some of the you know, writing
by candlelight. Candles are lovely, candles are underestimate. We should
(39:18):
do more of that. So I would put it in
the top three. Certainly the Bible one. I spent a
year trying to live by all the rules of the Bible,
and some of that was horrible. Like, you know, I
had a very itchy, scratchy beard practically down to my navel.
I had to you know, it was I couldn't touch
(39:40):
my wife during certain times and from the month, so
it had its huge downsides, but at the same time
I learned a lot about gratitude and humility from that
project and ritual, the joy of ritual. And then I
guess the third of my favorite was the Gratitude Book
(40:02):
featuring Scott Barry Kaufman.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
I loved that.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
Just because that, you know, I still work every day
at trying to be grateful for all the hundreds of
small things that happen instead of focusing on the three
or four that go wrong, all the small things that
go right, I mean, instead of the three or four
that go wrong. And it's a daily struggle, but it
(40:30):
really improves my life.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
Yeah, there's an exercise and positive coology three good things
before you go to bed that you write down. Well,
hey man, this is really another elucidating conversation. Do you
know what your next year living a year is going
to be?
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Like?
Speaker 3 (40:50):
I don't I need a break?
Speaker 1 (40:52):
I need to Yeah, I need a little I'm doing
as you know, the Puzzler, which which is a podcast
and which was a wonderful guest on so listen to that,
and so yeah, that keeps that's a daily podcast, so
that keeps me busy.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
You are such a good friend, Ajay, you really are
such a good friend. Really really really appreciate you well,
all the best on this book tour. Really enjoyed this
book as I enjoy all your books, quite frankly, and
I wish you all the all the best with it.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
Thank you, Scott, you too.
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