September 23, 2025 • 18 mins
Want to see The Puzzler LIVE in NYC on Oct 7? Limited tickets available now! https://bit.ly/cheerfulpuzzler
Hello, Puzzlers! Puzzling with us today: author of Matching Minds with Sondheim, Barry Joseph!
Join host A.J. Jacobs and his guests as they puzzle–and laugh–their way through new spins on old favorites, like anagrams and palindromes, as well as quirky originals such as “Ask AI” and audio rebuses.
Subscribe to The Puzzler podcast wherever you get your podcasts!
"The Puzzler with A.J. Jacobs" is distributed by iHeartPodcasts and is a co-production with Neuhaus Ideas.
Our executive producers are Neely Lohmann and Adam Neuhaus of Neuhaus Ideas, and Lindsay Hoffman of iHeart Podcasts.
The show is produced by Jody Avirgan and Brittani Brown of Roulette Productions.
Our Chief Puzzle Officer is Greg Pliska. Our associate producer is Andrea Schoenberg.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello puzzlers. A quick announcement, The Puzzler is doing a
live show in New York City and we'd love for
you to come. It's October seventh at six thirty pm
and an awesome venue called Caveat. There will be stories, puzzles, prizes.
It's part of the Cheerful Earful Podcast Festival. We love
(00:23):
a good rhyming title here at the Puzzler. Please check
the show notes for a link to tickets. Now on
with the show, Hello puzzlers. What if we started with
a warm up puzzle and it is this? What do
these phrases have in common? The woods, the wild, the
(00:45):
spider verse? All right, that has three phrases that have
something in common, The woods, the Wild, and the spider Verse.
The answer and more puzzling goodness after the break, Hello puzzlers,
Welcome back to the Puzzler Podcast. The Destruction of the
(01:08):
Miniature City models in your puzzle Kaiju film.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Ooh, very nice. That Kaiju is the very kind of
you know, hip way to describe Godzilla and his companions.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Exactly stomping Japanese films. I am your host, AJ Jacobs,
and that, of course was Chief Puzzle Officer Greg Kuliska. So, Greg,
before the break, I gave a little mini puzzle, what
do these phrases have in common? The Woods, the Wild,
and the Spider Verse.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Any thoughts you have gone like right into my wheelhouse
with those, because I'm a big fan of sometimes into
the Woods, I read Into the Wild, and I've seen
into the Spider Verse. There you go, I'm really into
all those things.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
All right.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Well, I'm I'm It's a great house to be in,
glad to be here. And I thought Into the Woods
in particular was appropriate because our guest today is none
other than Barry Joseph, author of a great book and
host of the podcast of the same name, Matching Minds
with Sunheim, the Puzzles and Games of the Broadway Legend.
(02:21):
Welcome back, Barry A j.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Greg, thank you so much for having me back.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Ah, we are delighted. And Barry, I believe you came
to us via Chief Puzzle Officer Greg Kliska. He knows
you from other contexts.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
I just cold called Barry because I knew about the book.
I knew the book was coming, and.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
I was like, I gotta meet this guy. I gotta
read the book, and then you know, Barry wrote back,
and we chatted and and and I will say, if
we're plugging things wonderful World of Words weekend this year
at Mohunk Mountain House, we will be there, of course
the puzzler, and Barry will be one of the presenters
talking about Sondheim and his games and his.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Puzzles that specifically his murder game.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Oh well, this will be great. Yeah, well, let's get
into it. Actually, you know what, I'm just gonna turn
it over to she puzzle Offsir Greg Pliskow because he
came up with today's puzzle for you.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
All right, well, thank you, thank you. I mean, there's
so much to talk about with Sondheim in puzzles and games,
and we'll get into that here and on the weekend.
But I decided I would create a puzzle not about
Stephen Sondheim, but about Stephen Sandheim, who's a famous composer
and lyricists whose last name happens to be just one
(03:37):
letter different from Steven.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Sound weird, very weird, weird.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Right, unexpected tangential direction.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah exactly, you didn't think that was coming. Well, and
what's even more amazing is all of Sandheim's works are
the same as the names of Sondheim works with just
one letter changed.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Oh, I see where we're going.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah, this work. So for example, uh, this is a
musical about two rival gangs of long legged, long legged
birds in New York City. It's west Side.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
There's well, not Story, so it's not west Side.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Change one letter to make it a bird, to.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Make it a long legged bird that delivers babies, which
becomes west Side Story exactly west Side Stork.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
I'd watched that in a second.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
So so basically, these are all Sundheim musicals that have
had one letter change to become these alternative world musicals.
So here's your first one. Uh. This musical is subtitled
The Demon Reptile of Fleet Pond.
Speaker 5 (04:45):
Clearly we're talking here about Sweeny Todd, but in this
alternate universe it's Sweety Toad exactly.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
No Sweety Toad.
Speaker 5 (04:55):
Sweety Toad, I imagine, just like Sweety Todd has a
song where there's a very witty wordplay battle going on
between two of the characters.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
My god, yes, I know which song, which in Sweeney Todd.
Speaker 5 (05:07):
A Little Priest, and in a Little Priest that is
the moment when things get quite dark. That's the one
where the characters decide that they're gonna not only start
murdering their customers, but serving them up on the menu.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
And in their playful song, they.
Speaker 5 (05:21):
Are joking about which type of people in which type
of careers will taste best. And what we're doing in
the audience is watching them match wits with each other.
And as they're each upping the ante with each other,
we suddenly realize it's also sona. I'm playing with us
as an audience as we're cheering him on how far
can he go?
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Do you have an example of a wordplay of the
the profession that gets turned into a meat pie?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Yep, I do. Here's one for example.
Speaker 5 (05:50):
Now you see the trouble with poet is how do
you know it's deceased? Try the priest lawyers rather nice
if it's for a price.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
So the poet is so boring that you don't even
know if he's already dead.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
That's that's right.
Speaker 5 (06:05):
They're jokes about both the careers and also can you
get that rhyme in right?
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Let me give you another one of these. This musical.
This Sandheim musical is an exploration of fairytale tropes as
told by a group of auto mechanics.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Auto mechanics love it.
Speaker 5 (06:21):
So the fairy Tales take us to his nineteen eighty
seven production of Into the Woods. But of course Sandheim
is not doing into the Woods, but he's doing am
I gonna play with the word into or woods?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
The latter auto mechanics. Where do they work?
Speaker 5 (06:41):
He automacanic one letter in the word woods. I'm sure
your listeners are screaming it out for.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
The first letter, first letter.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
First letter to the auto mechanic woods.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
I'm going through the alphabet, not boots.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
Not boods, goods, goods, foods, goods, hoods.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yes, into the hoods exactly, you got it, exactly.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Of course, Into the Woods is about fairy Tales.
Speaker 5 (07:08):
Those games that he played allude to some of the
pointing click games like the Infocom games that some of
us know. I don't think he actually played those type
of games, but he did play puzzle based games in
the late eighties. So in nineteen eighty nine, for example,
he not only played Cliff Johnson's three and three, he's
actually thanked in the credits because he was a playtester.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
So he loved video games.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yeah, this was the thing. I was so excited about
in the book that I didn't know anything about sometimes
playing video games.
Speaker 5 (07:35):
And in fact, in the early nineties for a time
he toyed with turning Into the Woods into an educational
CD ROM game that would teach music CDI.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Ram that's a word you don't hear a lot. And
by the way, Into the Woods, two quick things on it. First,
my son Lucas played the Baker in a wonderful production.
And second, it is also very puzzle like because it's
a scavenger hut. They are looking for four things to
remove the curse from the witch.
Speaker 5 (08:03):
And they're not only looking for four things, but it
is that very structure that made Sondheim think this might
be a good game.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
M I love it all right, all right, here's another
one for you, another Sandtaim musical. After a disappointing initial run,
this show had a Tony winning revival in twenty twenty three,
with Daniel Radcliffe, Jonathan Groff, and Lindsay Mendez as three
friends working on the New Jersey Turnpike.
Speaker 5 (08:27):
Working on the New Jersey Turnpike. So immediately I note
which show is being referenced. That's Merrily We Roll Along, yep.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Now we're gonna change.
Speaker 5 (08:35):
Merely we roll along and do something about the New
Jersey Turnpike, which rolling along the New Jersey Turnpike sounds
wrong already because there's usually so much traffic, but that's
not I think what you're looking for.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Now you also have to stop on the New Jersey
Turnpike and any turnpike. Two.
Speaker 5 (08:50):
Oh, you need to stop because once upon a time
they were boots that are no longer there. Those were
the toe boots, as in merrily we toll.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Exactly we roll along.
Speaker 5 (09:01):
Now merrily we roll along, of course, for those who
don't know, merely we roll along as a show structured
so that chronologically each scene happens in the opposite order
in time. So the beginning of our show is actually
the end in time, and we go back to the
first moment in time. So the show is not only
physically structured backwards, but the songs and the music are
(09:21):
structured backwards as well. So normally in a show, you
might be introduced to a tune, then you get a song,
and then you get a reprieve, and merely we roll along.
We experience the reprieve first before we actually get the
full song right, right, so the retire show is a
type of jigsaw puzzle where you and the audience are
trying to piece together the cause and effect, where the
effect happens before the cause.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
It's just again, it's sometimes setting himself a challenge. It's
not just to delight us. He's like, this will be
really fun to try to construct this thing.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Yeah, it's like Memento. It's backwards and it's also it's
like a punch You get the punchline and then you
have to figure out the setup.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
This one is a brilliant exploration of art, romance and
the Parisian practice of shutting off all electric lighting on
the weekends.
Speaker 5 (10:16):
I really like this, mister sand Right, really great musicals.
So I think we're in the realm of Sunday in
the park with George, and can you remind me about
what's happening.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
It's about shutting off all the all the electric lighting
on the weekends. You turn off all the lights on
the weekend.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
I'm thinking about Shabbat, but that's what I thought too,
And I didn't see a Shabbat or.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
A Nabat in the park with George.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
You guys are too smart. It's just when you when
you turn off all the light. You are Therefore, in
the Oh.
Speaker 5 (10:45):
I see and mister Sandheim's world, the show has become
Sunday in the dark, which.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Exactly I was trying to figure out a way to
work in the idea of recreating the painting as they
do at the end of Act one, but within the dark,
so you can't see. How brilliant is that it's been
recon directed.
Speaker 5 (11:02):
So again, Greg, what you're referencing for those I don't know.
At the end of the first act, all of these
characters and actors and props on the stage all rearranged
for the first time to be come the painting that
George has been creating, which is the actual painting in
the real world. We know in the audience to expect it.
But when that moment comes together, like a jigsaw puzzle
finding its image, it's a moment that's just devastating.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
And that the painting is who does that? The famous
nineteenth century painting of these fancy Parisians and like top
pats and not just.
Speaker 5 (11:36):
Fancy everyday people too, had all sorts, and the show
is exploring both how the high and low are coming
together in this one moment.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Interesting on this Sunday, on this Sunday.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
There you go on the blue, purple, yellow, red water.
I love it.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Well, I can keep going. I'll start crying.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Oh god, Yeah, it might be my most emotionally engaging
Suntai musical. I get so into it because it was.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
A time of sobbing.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
I thought it was my life. I ride a complicated
composer and his girlfriend. That was me back in the day.
All right, I'll give you another one. This is an
ancient Roman in this musical, ancient Roman comedy meets James
Brown and sly in the family Stone.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Well, this one's quite funny.
Speaker 5 (12:21):
Thank you, Greg, clearly referencing a funny thing happened on
the way to the forum.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
But this one's referencing, you said, sly Stone, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Sly in the family Stone and James Brown.
Speaker 5 (12:30):
And James Brown, a funny thing happened on the way
to the forum becomes a pretty hip I have.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
To say, yeah, what kind of music, Well, particular particular
style that is in the second it's the second word
of the title. It's not a funny thing that happened
on the way to the forum.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
I'm now embarrassed. I feel like I should know this word.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
What about Welcome to blank Town?
Speaker 2 (13:00):
No, won't you take me to?
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Won't you take me there?
Speaker 6 (13:03):
Now?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
I got it. You turned a funny thing that happened
into a funky thing that happened exactly.
Speaker 5 (13:09):
That's where I was getting that nice feel. I want
to see that production, right.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
The funk version of funny thing happened on the way
to the Forum.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
I think it's time for a revival.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Yeah, I'll do one more of these. This is based
on an Ingmar Bergmann film, and it's a musical that
follows the lives of several couples, all of whom are
constantly bickering, accompanied by the theme from Rocky.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Huh the theme from Rocky?
Speaker 5 (13:35):
Mister Sadheim, Yeah, okay, I think we're talking about the
movie here, A Little night.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Music, the musical, A Little Night Music? Yep, yea.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
And yet did you say the theme song to Rocky?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Theme from Rocky? Because they're constantly bickering.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Because they're bickering, it's not.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
A little night music?
Speaker 1 (13:52):
What is sing the theme from Rocky? That'll get a.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Bump, a bump, a bump, put a bump, put a bump,
that's up straight to the top. Got the guts got
the glory.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Wow, that's look at that tiger.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
The tiger. That's the Rocky too theme. Actually, oh oh,
that's all right, but.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
It still works? Right? Does that still works?
Speaker 2 (14:17):
It works? They're they're bickering.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
They're bickering because what they're doing is they are going
head to ahead against each other because they are fighting
in a little fight music, a little fight music.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Fantastic, Well done, Barry, Thank you, excellent job, Greg.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
That's a great thing about this book. If you're if
you're a Sondhim fan, this book is a chance to
discover a whole other section of his creative life. And
if you're a puzzle and games fan, it's a chance
to discover a whole world of puzzling games that you
know has changed some of what we know about puzzles
and games, but just delightful, delightful stuff.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Exactly, Thank you, Greg.
Speaker 5 (14:55):
And I wrote it so that people from both worlds
won't feel like they're outsiders. I want everyone I feel
comfortable coming into this space, whether you're learning about Sondheim
for the first time, learning about puzzles, learning about games,
or how they're all connected together.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Fantastic, Well thank you and actually tomorrow we're gonna do
some of Sondheim's his own puzzles that he wrote.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
So come back from you guys will be up.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Oh yeah, we're on the hot seat, Greg, Do you
have an actual credit?
Speaker 2 (15:23):
This is a musical in which a crumbling theater hosts
a reunion of musicians who once performed there Pete seeger Arlo, Guthrie,
Odetta and the Weavers.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
I am drawing a huge blank, but I'm counting on
out tomorrow, all right. I can't wait. In the meantime,
Thanks Barry, Thanks Greg. Thanks listeners, and if you like
the show then it would be a huge help if
you would go on your favorite podcast platform and just
give us a rating real quick. But it does make
(15:59):
a huge difference, it does, do it. Thank you, Barry.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
I love the fellow podcaster. You know.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
That's right. I understand, And of course we'll see you
here tomorrow for more puzzling puzzles that will puzzle you
Puzzling League.
Speaker 6 (16:18):
Hello puzzlers, it's your chief puzzle Officer, Greg Pliska here
once again with the extra credit answer from our previous episode.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
But before I give you.
Speaker 6 (16:27):
That, I wanted to tell you all about a fun
fundraiser from friend of the puzzler, Scott Weiss. Scott's raising
money for the Trevor Project, which is a nonprofit that
supports LGBTQ youth in crisis. If you donate any amount,
you'll receive a link to a trivia wordplay puzzly sort
of quiz that Scott has constructed. It's a thing called
(16:50):
an anti match quiz where each question has multiple correct
answer and your goal is to come up with the
answers provided by the fewest number of other players. It's
a really fun thing and it's for a really good cause,
so I urge you to go over and check it out.
Go to give dot the Trevor Project dot org slash
(17:11):
Anti Match fundraiser. That's give dot the Trevor Project dot org,
t R e v o R Trevor Project Slash Anti
Match fundraiser, Check it out. Entrees are due on this Wednesday,
so go donate it and try it out now. And
now for that extra credit, we had the Great Barry
(17:32):
Joseph with us to talk about his new.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Book about Stephen Sondheim's Puzzles and Games, and we gave
him a little quiz of words. That's start and end
with the same letter. And as an extra help, the
clue starts with the letter that the word itself starts
at end with. So your extra credit clue was keep
school supplies in here, like a pencil or a notebook. That,
(17:56):
of course is a knapsack, a word which if I
used it in front of my children they would laugh
at me. Well, I hope you've got everything in your knapsack.
I hope you go check out Scott's Anti matchquiz and
we'll see you here next time.
Hello puzzlers. A quick announcement, The Puzzler is doing a
live show in New York City and we'd love for
you to come. It's October seventh at six thirty pm
and an awesome venue called Caveat. There will be stories, puzzles, prizes.
It's part of the Cheerful Earful Podcast Festival. We love
(00:23):
a good rhyming title here at the Puzzler. Please check
the show notes for a link to tickets. Now on
with the show, Hello puzzlers. What if we started with
a warm up puzzle and it is this? What do
these phrases have in common? The woods, the wild, the
(00:45):
spider verse? All right, that has three phrases that have
something in common, The woods, the Wild, and the spider Verse.
The answer and more puzzling goodness after the break, Hello puzzlers,
Welcome back to the Puzzler Podcast. The Destruction of the
(01:08):
Miniature City models in your puzzle Kaiju film.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Ooh, very nice. That Kaiju is the very kind of
you know, hip way to describe Godzilla and his companions.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Exactly stomping Japanese films. I am your host, AJ Jacobs,
and that, of course was Chief Puzzle Officer Greg Kuliska. So, Greg,
before the break, I gave a little mini puzzle, what
do these phrases have in common? The Woods, the Wild,
and the Spider Verse.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Any thoughts you have gone like right into my wheelhouse
with those, because I'm a big fan of sometimes into
the Woods, I read Into the Wild, and I've seen
into the Spider Verse. There you go, I'm really into
all those things.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
All right.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Well, I'm I'm It's a great house to be in,
glad to be here. And I thought Into the Woods
in particular was appropriate because our guest today is none
other than Barry Joseph, author of a great book and
host of the podcast of the same name, Matching Minds
with Sunheim, the Puzzles and Games of the Broadway Legend.
(02:21):
Welcome back, Barry A j.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Greg, thank you so much for having me back.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Ah, we are delighted. And Barry, I believe you came
to us via Chief Puzzle Officer Greg Kliska. He knows
you from other contexts.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
I just cold called Barry because I knew about the book.
I knew the book was coming, and.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
I was like, I gotta meet this guy. I gotta
read the book, and then you know, Barry wrote back,
and we chatted and and and I will say, if
we're plugging things wonderful World of Words weekend this year
at Mohunk Mountain House, we will be there, of course
the puzzler, and Barry will be one of the presenters
talking about Sondheim and his games and his.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Puzzles that specifically his murder game.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Oh well, this will be great. Yeah, well, let's get
into it. Actually, you know what, I'm just gonna turn
it over to she puzzle Offsir Greg Pliskow because he
came up with today's puzzle for you.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
All right, well, thank you, thank you. I mean, there's
so much to talk about with Sondheim in puzzles and games,
and we'll get into that here and on the weekend.
But I decided I would create a puzzle not about
Stephen Sondheim, but about Stephen Sandheim, who's a famous composer
and lyricists whose last name happens to be just one
(03:37):
letter different from Steven.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Sound weird, very weird, weird.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Right, unexpected tangential direction.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah exactly, you didn't think that was coming. Well, and
what's even more amazing is all of Sandheim's works are
the same as the names of Sondheim works with just
one letter changed.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Oh, I see where we're going.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah, this work. So for example, uh, this is a
musical about two rival gangs of long legged, long legged
birds in New York City. It's west Side.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
There's well, not Story, so it's not west Side.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Change one letter to make it a bird, to.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Make it a long legged bird that delivers babies, which
becomes west Side Story exactly west Side Stork.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
I'd watched that in a second.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
So so basically, these are all Sundheim musicals that have
had one letter change to become these alternative world musicals.
So here's your first one. Uh. This musical is subtitled
The Demon Reptile of Fleet Pond.
Speaker 5 (04:45):
Clearly we're talking here about Sweeny Todd, but in this
alternate universe it's Sweety Toad exactly.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
No Sweety Toad.
Speaker 5 (04:55):
Sweety Toad, I imagine, just like Sweety Todd has a
song where there's a very witty wordplay battle going on
between two of the characters.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
My god, yes, I know which song, which in Sweeney Todd.
Speaker 5 (05:07):
A Little Priest, and in a Little Priest that is
the moment when things get quite dark. That's the one
where the characters decide that they're gonna not only start
murdering their customers, but serving them up on the menu.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
And in their playful song, they.
Speaker 5 (05:21):
Are joking about which type of people in which type
of careers will taste best. And what we're doing in
the audience is watching them match wits with each other.
And as they're each upping the ante with each other,
we suddenly realize it's also sona. I'm playing with us
as an audience as we're cheering him on how far
can he go?
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Do you have an example of a wordplay of the
the profession that gets turned into a meat pie?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Yep, I do. Here's one for example.
Speaker 5 (05:50):
Now you see the trouble with poet is how do
you know it's deceased? Try the priest lawyers rather nice
if it's for a price.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
So the poet is so boring that you don't even
know if he's already dead.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
That's that's right.
Speaker 5 (06:05):
They're jokes about both the careers and also can you
get that rhyme in right?
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Let me give you another one of these. This musical.
This Sandheim musical is an exploration of fairytale tropes as
told by a group of auto mechanics.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Auto mechanics love it.
Speaker 5 (06:21):
So the fairy Tales take us to his nineteen eighty
seven production of Into the Woods. But of course Sandheim
is not doing into the Woods, but he's doing am
I gonna play with the word into or woods?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
The latter auto mechanics. Where do they work?
Speaker 5 (06:41):
He automacanic one letter in the word woods. I'm sure
your listeners are screaming it out for.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
The first letter, first letter.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
First letter to the auto mechanic woods.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
I'm going through the alphabet, not boots.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
Not boods, goods, goods, foods, goods, hoods.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yes, into the hoods exactly, you got it, exactly.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Of course, Into the Woods is about fairy Tales.
Speaker 5 (07:08):
Those games that he played allude to some of the
pointing click games like the Infocom games that some of
us know. I don't think he actually played those type
of games, but he did play puzzle based games in
the late eighties. So in nineteen eighty nine, for example,
he not only played Cliff Johnson's three and three, he's
actually thanked in the credits because he was a playtester.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
So he loved video games.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yeah, this was the thing. I was so excited about
in the book that I didn't know anything about sometimes
playing video games.
Speaker 5 (07:35):
And in fact, in the early nineties for a time
he toyed with turning Into the Woods into an educational
CD ROM game that would teach music CDI.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Ram that's a word you don't hear a lot. And
by the way, Into the Woods, two quick things on it. First,
my son Lucas played the Baker in a wonderful production.
And second, it is also very puzzle like because it's
a scavenger hut. They are looking for four things to
remove the curse from the witch.
Speaker 5 (08:03):
And they're not only looking for four things, but it
is that very structure that made Sondheim think this might
be a good game.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
M I love it all right, all right, here's another
one for you, another Sandtaim musical. After a disappointing initial run,
this show had a Tony winning revival in twenty twenty three,
with Daniel Radcliffe, Jonathan Groff, and Lindsay Mendez as three
friends working on the New Jersey Turnpike.
Speaker 5 (08:27):
Working on the New Jersey Turnpike. So immediately I note
which show is being referenced. That's Merrily We Roll Along, yep.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Now we're gonna change.
Speaker 5 (08:35):
Merely we roll along and do something about the New
Jersey Turnpike, which rolling along the New Jersey Turnpike sounds
wrong already because there's usually so much traffic, but that's
not I think what you're looking for.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Now you also have to stop on the New Jersey
Turnpike and any turnpike. Two.
Speaker 5 (08:50):
Oh, you need to stop because once upon a time
they were boots that are no longer there. Those were
the toe boots, as in merrily we toll.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Exactly we roll along.
Speaker 5 (09:01):
Now merrily we roll along, of course, for those who
don't know, merely we roll along as a show structured
so that chronologically each scene happens in the opposite order
in time. So the beginning of our show is actually
the end in time, and we go back to the
first moment in time. So the show is not only
physically structured backwards, but the songs and the music are
(09:21):
structured backwards as well. So normally in a show, you
might be introduced to a tune, then you get a song,
and then you get a reprieve, and merely we roll along.
We experience the reprieve first before we actually get the
full song right, right, so the retire show is a
type of jigsaw puzzle where you and the audience are
trying to piece together the cause and effect, where the
effect happens before the cause.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
It's just again, it's sometimes setting himself a challenge. It's
not just to delight us. He's like, this will be
really fun to try to construct this thing.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Yeah, it's like Memento. It's backwards and it's also it's
like a punch You get the punchline and then you
have to figure out the setup.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
This one is a brilliant exploration of art, romance and
the Parisian practice of shutting off all electric lighting on
the weekends.
Speaker 5 (10:16):
I really like this, mister sand Right, really great musicals.
So I think we're in the realm of Sunday in
the park with George, and can you remind me about
what's happening.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
It's about shutting off all the all the electric lighting
on the weekends. You turn off all the lights on
the weekend.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
I'm thinking about Shabbat, but that's what I thought too,
And I didn't see a Shabbat or.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
A Nabat in the park with George.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
You guys are too smart. It's just when you when
you turn off all the light. You are Therefore, in
the Oh.
Speaker 5 (10:45):
I see and mister Sandheim's world, the show has become
Sunday in the dark, which.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Exactly I was trying to figure out a way to
work in the idea of recreating the painting as they
do at the end of Act one, but within the dark,
so you can't see. How brilliant is that it's been
recon directed.
Speaker 5 (11:02):
So again, Greg, what you're referencing for those I don't know.
At the end of the first act, all of these
characters and actors and props on the stage all rearranged
for the first time to be come the painting that
George has been creating, which is the actual painting in
the real world. We know in the audience to expect it.
But when that moment comes together, like a jigsaw puzzle
finding its image, it's a moment that's just devastating.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
And that the painting is who does that? The famous
nineteenth century painting of these fancy Parisians and like top
pats and not just.
Speaker 5 (11:36):
Fancy everyday people too, had all sorts, and the show
is exploring both how the high and low are coming
together in this one moment.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Interesting on this Sunday, on this Sunday.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
There you go on the blue, purple, yellow, red water.
I love it.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Well, I can keep going. I'll start crying.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Oh god, Yeah, it might be my most emotionally engaging
Suntai musical. I get so into it because it was.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
A time of sobbing.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
I thought it was my life. I ride a complicated
composer and his girlfriend. That was me back in the day.
All right, I'll give you another one. This is an
ancient Roman in this musical, ancient Roman comedy meets James
Brown and sly in the family Stone.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Well, this one's quite funny.
Speaker 5 (12:21):
Thank you, Greg, clearly referencing a funny thing happened on
the way to the forum.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
But this one's referencing, you said, sly Stone, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Sly in the family Stone and James Brown.
Speaker 5 (12:30):
And James Brown, a funny thing happened on the way
to the forum becomes a pretty hip I have.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
To say, yeah, what kind of music, Well, particular particular
style that is in the second it's the second word
of the title. It's not a funny thing that happened
on the way to the forum.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
I'm now embarrassed. I feel like I should know this word.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
What about Welcome to blank Town?
Speaker 2 (13:00):
No, won't you take me to?
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Won't you take me there?
Speaker 6 (13:03):
Now?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
I got it. You turned a funny thing that happened
into a funky thing that happened exactly.
Speaker 5 (13:09):
That's where I was getting that nice feel. I want
to see that production, right.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
The funk version of funny thing happened on the way
to the Forum.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
I think it's time for a revival.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Yeah, I'll do one more of these. This is based
on an Ingmar Bergmann film, and it's a musical that
follows the lives of several couples, all of whom are
constantly bickering, accompanied by the theme from Rocky.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Huh the theme from Rocky?
Speaker 5 (13:35):
Mister Sadheim, Yeah, okay, I think we're talking about the
movie here, A Little night.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Music, the musical, A Little Night Music? Yep, yea.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
And yet did you say the theme song to Rocky?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Theme from Rocky? Because they're constantly bickering.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Because they're bickering, it's not.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
A little night music?
Speaker 1 (13:52):
What is sing the theme from Rocky? That'll get a.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Bump, a bump, a bump, put a bump, put a bump,
that's up straight to the top. Got the guts got
the glory.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Wow, that's look at that tiger.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
The tiger. That's the Rocky too theme. Actually, oh oh,
that's all right, but.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
It still works? Right? Does that still works?
Speaker 2 (14:17):
It works? They're they're bickering.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
They're bickering because what they're doing is they are going
head to ahead against each other because they are fighting
in a little fight music, a little fight music.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Fantastic, Well done, Barry, Thank you, excellent job, Greg.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
That's a great thing about this book. If you're if
you're a Sondhim fan, this book is a chance to
discover a whole other section of his creative life. And
if you're a puzzle and games fan, it's a chance
to discover a whole world of puzzling games that you
know has changed some of what we know about puzzles
and games, but just delightful, delightful stuff.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Exactly, Thank you, Greg.
Speaker 5 (14:55):
And I wrote it so that people from both worlds
won't feel like they're outsiders. I want everyone I feel
comfortable coming into this space, whether you're learning about Sondheim
for the first time, learning about puzzles, learning about games,
or how they're all connected together.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Fantastic, Well thank you and actually tomorrow we're gonna do
some of Sondheim's his own puzzles that he wrote.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
So come back from you guys will be up.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Oh yeah, we're on the hot seat, Greg, Do you
have an actual credit?
Speaker 2 (15:23):
This is a musical in which a crumbling theater hosts
a reunion of musicians who once performed there Pete seeger Arlo, Guthrie,
Odetta and the Weavers.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
I am drawing a huge blank, but I'm counting on
out tomorrow, all right. I can't wait. In the meantime,
Thanks Barry, Thanks Greg. Thanks listeners, and if you like
the show then it would be a huge help if
you would go on your favorite podcast platform and just
give us a rating real quick. But it does make
(15:59):
a huge difference, it does, do it. Thank you, Barry.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
I love the fellow podcaster. You know.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
That's right. I understand, And of course we'll see you
here tomorrow for more puzzling puzzles that will puzzle you
Puzzling League.
Speaker 6 (16:18):
Hello puzzlers, it's your chief puzzle Officer, Greg Pliska here
once again with the extra credit answer from our previous episode.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
But before I give you.
Speaker 6 (16:27):
That, I wanted to tell you all about a fun
fundraiser from friend of the puzzler, Scott Weiss. Scott's raising
money for the Trevor Project, which is a nonprofit that
supports LGBTQ youth in crisis. If you donate any amount,
you'll receive a link to a trivia wordplay puzzly sort
of quiz that Scott has constructed. It's a thing called
(16:50):
an anti match quiz where each question has multiple correct
answer and your goal is to come up with the
answers provided by the fewest number of other players. It's
a really fun thing and it's for a really good cause,
so I urge you to go over and check it out.
Go to give dot the Trevor Project dot org slash
(17:11):
Anti Match fundraiser. That's give dot the Trevor Project dot org,
t R e v o R Trevor Project Slash Anti
Match fundraiser, Check it out. Entrees are due on this Wednesday,
so go donate it and try it out now. And
now for that extra credit, we had the Great Barry
(17:32):
Joseph with us to talk about his new.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Book about Stephen Sondheim's Puzzles and Games, and we gave
him a little quiz of words. That's start and end
with the same letter. And as an extra help, the
clue starts with the letter that the word itself starts
at end with. So your extra credit clue was keep
school supplies in here, like a pencil or a notebook. That,
(17:56):
of course is a knapsack, a word which if I
used it in front of my children they would laugh
at me. Well, I hope you've got everything in your knapsack.
I hope you go check out Scott's Anti matchquiz and
we'll see you here next time.
Hosts And Creators
Greg Pliska
A.J. Jacobs
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