November 16, 2022 • 35 mins
Iyanla takes a look at the other side of the parent/child relationship, with two callers whose mothers still treat them like children. The first caller feels like he had to become the emotional support for his mother after his father died, which created an unhealthy relationship. Then, a second caller wants to have some relationship with their mother, but can’t seem to set boundaries like an adult. Iyanla guides both callers toward standing up and presenting themselves as children no longer.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
I am a Yamla. I had a baby daddy relationship.
I spent time in a relationship with a married man.
I had to learn the skills and tools required to
make my relationships healthy, fulfilling and loving. Welcome to the
Our Spot, a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with
I Heart Radio. I did a show about some of
(00:37):
the nuances of parenting an adult child and how the
parent child relationships ships and change and heels and grows,
and what we parents can get out of it and
what the children may need. Well. As mothers, we make
our sons our emotional husbands and we expect them to
(01:00):
fill us in ways that is not their job to
do so. Very often, as mothers we make our sons
are emotional prisoners, and we manipulate them into being and
doing what we need in order to feel fulfilled. If
you need to forgive yourself, just do it and be
(01:22):
open and willing to have your relationship with your adult
son healed and transformed. We need to talk about it today.
Thank you for your patience and welcome to the Our Spot.
How can I serve aces support you today? Thank you
for having me on um. I was falling in because
(01:46):
I am at my wits end with the relationship dynamic
with my mother. It has been struggling for a while,
but it has intensified over the last seven years since
the passing of my father. Tell me, what is the
crux of the issue with your mom? What does what
does that look like? What's happening, what's going on? I
don't have the respect of my mother as an adult,
(02:09):
as a man. She is for me, it still comes
off and feels like she still has some raising to do.
She still has some uh monitoring and checking and giving
instruction slash correction or under correction under the guise of
instruction or suggestions. She is not accepting or supportive of
(02:34):
my sexuality. I've told her that I'm bisexual. She's been
unable to disconnect that from any other issue. So, for her,
the crux of the issue is my sexuality, whereas for me,
it's that is has nothing to do with anything. For me,
it's more so just a respect as an adult. You
articulated that really, really clearly. My mother doesn't respect me
(02:57):
as a man, and my mother is not at peace
with my sexuality. Why is your sexuality your mother's business?
In my opinion, that savilion dollar questions, because it is
not in according to her, it is how does she
challenge your bisexuality? What does she do? What is she saying?
(03:21):
It's from the religious perspective, So for on the Bible
versus um the repercussions, Uh, you know, telling me all
of the risk and diseases and all of the wonderfulness
that can come from risky behavior. I love that, you know,
that's my word, wonderfulness. Well, it is driven by the
(03:46):
religious perspective, coupled with what she had in mind how
my life should play out. So she wants a grandchild,
she wants the mother daughter, she wants the mother in law.
So that's how it comes off. And as how it ah, Yeah,
the sharp edges of Christianity, the sharp edges of religion
(04:08):
will cut us to death. Why did you choose to
tell your mother that you were bisexual? What? What drove that?
What was your intention? She has had decisions, you know,
in in addition to her being nosy, motherly, all of
the above. That's so I told her that because he
(04:29):
it was just in the moment of being honest and
truthful with her um and not holding it a anymore.
But it ultimately felt like I never did, because it's
still been an argument back and forth forward, going on
over team the years. There's a couple of realities that I,
as a mother, would like to share with you, and
(04:51):
I ask your forgiveness on behalf of all mothers. Okay,
I ask your forgiveness or they have a your mother
and all mothers, all right, But as a mother, grandmother,
great grandmother, I want to share a few things with you. Okay. Uh.
You have disappointed her, Not because you meant to, not
(05:13):
because you intended to, not because it was your job
to live up to what she thought you should be.
But you have disappointed her as a mother. You have
disappointed her because as a mother, there's a chip in
our hard drive that says, anything that's wrong with my
children is my fault. So if the sharp edge of
(05:35):
religion is cutting her to believe that my son man
should get married, have children, make me a grandmother and
you're not moving in that direction, she's disappointed. You have
disappointed your mother. Take a breath on behalf of all mothers,
your mother and all mothers. I forgive us. You have
(05:59):
not become um who she wanted you to be, not
that it was your job to become who she wanted
you to be. But in the mother's consciousness and the
mother's makeup and the mother's being, there's a hard drive
that says, I know better for my children than they do,
and my children, if they live up to what I
(06:20):
think they should be, then I have succeeded as a mother.
Shouldn't be that way, But it is. So. You are
not who she wanted you to be. Take a braath
on behalf of all mother's, your mother and every other mother.
I ask your forgiveness because you do not live up
(06:42):
to her expectations and provide her with the validation, the
external validation she needs in the world as a woman,
as a mother, or as a Christian. So not only
have you disappointed her, not only are you not who
she wants you to be, not only are you shaming
her in the public. Uh huh. You talk about it
(07:05):
like it's okay. I just want you to understand that
because this really isn't about her, It's really about you. Yes,
and forgiveness is your ticket. You say, my mother doesn't
respect me as a man, because and what I'm hearing
(07:26):
here is you having created clear boundaries with her. I've attempted,
but what's the consequence when she violates the boundary? There
hasn't been one, and um ahh yeah, yeah, so there
hasn't been a consequence. And then secondly, since my dad's
past thing, since we have grown even more deeply envessed,
(07:51):
and I shared it with her that we that we
kind of teated the line of investment and emotional interests
because on one side of the border, it's my mama
and honor our mother and our father, that side of it,
and the flip side of it I'm being discussed with,
you know, whether it's some kind of emotional hartship she's
(08:13):
having with maybe someone she might be potentially dating, or
just something personal with her. So it's it's the flip
side coined up being mom and then wanting to be friends.
And for me it's I'm aware of it, and but
there's still no respect there. Okay, so what do you
want to do? So ultimately, I have been preparing myself
(08:36):
really stuck the last six or seven weeks to take
some time apart from her, like to disconnect because we
are into different states and two different CDs. But she
has this thing where we need to talk to every
day and she does it under the guise of anything
could happen at any moment, but you participate in that.
Do you want to talk to you a grown ass man?
(08:57):
Do you want to talk to your mama every day?
I don't. Okay, Well why did you do it? Why
do you do it to satisfy her? And we'll talk
about that when we come back. Welcome back to the
(09:17):
our spot today. We are talking about growing into forgiveness
with your mother. Here's the thing. Daddy died. You're the son,
so you have to be father husband. You have to
step in to fill her husband's role. You made that
up that you don't have to do that. Yeah, I
know I don't have people. That's what That's what I've done. Yeah.
(09:40):
So what I can offer you if you want to
be respected as a man, h then you have to
stand up like a man. Take off your knickers and
your baseball cap, put on your suit and your tie,
your belt and your shiny wing tip shoes and oh,
your mother, what a man looks like in your body?
(10:03):
You want to be respectful and you want to honor her,
and and you want to keep the relationship in time.
Because I'm hearing that your relationship with your mother. Is
an important relationship in your life? Is that accurate? It's
definitely important. One, it feels like a chore, and I
don't want it to feel like it's a chore. Yeah,
(10:25):
and then secondly, I have to I wanted to where
I'm not suffering. Well, yeah, you have to eliminate your
own suffering. But if she doesn't know what it looks
like for you to be a man in your body,
then she can't respect it. She she can't. She don't
know what it looked like. So she's cocked, she's coed.
(10:52):
She's looking at you, but she's seeing a little boy,
and she's leaning on you, and she wants you to
be a man when she's got a problem. But she
you can't tell her what to do. And you okay,
So you gotta put on your suit. You'll tie your
belt and your wing tips shoes, and you've got to
stand up. I love my son, Okay, he take a
(11:15):
bullet from me. I take a bullet for him. We
are friends. We are friends, and I don't talk to
him every day. He lives seven minutes from me. He
has to pass my house to go anywhere in the world.
He has to he don't come here every day, And
if he do come here every day, he I would
(11:37):
what's the matter, what's the what's wrong? Why are you here?
Because he usually comes home when he wants food or comfort.
You know, he don't borrow money. But you know, so
he put his suit and his tie and his wing
tips shoes on a long time ago because I said
to him, I'm gonna stop mothering you. What do you
need me to do? He said, I need you to
(11:58):
be my friend. And he taught me how by having
clear boundaries. I can't call my son and ask him
where he's going, what he's doing, and I have clear
boundaries with him. You have a key to my house,
but that don't mean you get to walk up in
here anytime you want to. I could have somebody up
in here and you can't be walking up in my house. Okay,
(12:22):
So you've got to look at the things that cause
your suffering and eliminate them. Having to talk to your
mother every day causes you suffering. Eliminate them. Is listening
to problems about her boyfriends or her girlfriends or whatever.
If that causes you suffering, eliminate it. And it's just
(12:44):
what we what I call radical communication. Mam, don't talk
to me about your boyfriend. I just I don't want
to hear it. Don't thump me with your bible, don't
do that. I don't want to hear that. So a
couple of things you've gotta be willing to. You've got
to grow the muscleful. Let's start with the easy one. Mom.
I'm not gonna talk to you every day. I'm a
(13:06):
grown man. That's how. That's what you want, right, I'm
a grown man. I don't need to talk to my
mother every day. If you've got a problem, an issue,
a challenge, that's one thing. If I have a problem
and issue a challenge, that's another thing. But I'm not
gonna talk to you every day. Is that something that
you are willing to communicate to her? I'm definitely willing.
(13:27):
Are you ready when I say that to her and
talk you every day? And then if then I get
the manipulation and guilt, anything could happen. You see how
your dad died. It could happen, and you know what,
I'll deal with it when it does. Please forgive me.
I'm asking for your forgiveness on behalf of all your
mother and all mothers mothers can be emotionally manipulative. We
(13:50):
can be emotional vampires, and we will suck your life
right out your eyeballs. Now, most mothers are gonna tell
you that, But I'm gonna tell you that because I've
healed myself of the affliction a man. It's gonna stand
up a man when he recognizes that he's being manipuls
(14:11):
Let me ask you a question. Does your mama pay
your rent? She doesn't, but she will contribute if I need. Okay,
well that a man don't ask his mama for no rent,
So you got to heal that up. You can't ask
your mama for no rent. Now, if you need some
money to help you go on your vacation, that's different.
But a man handles his basics. So you can't act
(14:34):
like a boy and expect her to see you as
your man. I don't care if you got to borrow
it from the hobo on the corner. Don't you never
ask your mama for no more money to pay your rent?
That is a contradiction. You can't act like a boy
and expect her to see you as a man. So
she don't pay your rent? Does she pick your partners
for you? Suggestions. And when you she makes a suggestion
(14:57):
of what do you say? I don't respond, you know,
I just say no, no, no, no, no no. Would
you let anybody in the street just say whatever they
want to say to you? No, no, no, no. You
don't have pearls. So let me just say this, I
would say to a lady, clutch your pearls. I'm gonna
say to you, clutch your crotch. Your mama can't see
(15:21):
you as a man because you ain't acting like one.
I know it's your mother, but she's a woman and
you cannot expect more or less from her than you
would from any other grown adult woman. You cannot. She's
not a sacred coyle that you have to protect and preserve. Yes,
(15:43):
you want to have a healthy, respectful relationship with her,
but you also want a friend, an elder woman, a
wise woman who respects your intellect, who respects your choices.
She don't have to like them, but she respects that.
She's got to be a soul off place for you
to fall. Not when you go to her that she's
(16:04):
gonna thump you on the head with the Bible and
condemn you to hell. No, you have to be a
man in order for her to respect you as a man.
Can you hear me, beloved, You got to create some
boundaries with her, because boundaries are not going to keep
her out, Boundaries are gonna keep you safe. Yes, but
(16:26):
I want you to That's why I was sharing with
you what she's carrying in her consciousness, so that you
will understand you've disappointed her because you're not who she
wanted you to be, and you're not living up to
her need for external validation. And none of that is
your work. That's not your work. That's for her to
(16:47):
figure out. You are a respectful adult man, the son
of a woman who's disappointed and who needs external validation,
but that you need some clear boundaries. So let's start
with the simple thing. You make a commitment to yourself
that you will never ask your mother for no more
(17:08):
rent and get her out of the intricate details of
your business. If you ain't gonna marry the person, don't
take them over there to meet for right now. Don't
tell her who you're dating. Don't talk to her about
your dating problem, don't talk to her about your problems.
Don't talk to don't not until she can be a friend.
(17:29):
She can't be a friend right now, and some of
those little behaviors, the little things. If it lands in
your belly and it don't feel right, say MA, I'm
not gonna do this with you anymore. Please forgive me.
I know we've been doing this, but this no longer.
This is causing me suffering. I don't want to hear
about your boyfriend. Don't manipulate me with Bible verses. This
(17:52):
is causing me suffering. And I'm telling giving you this
language because I want you to give you a key
to unlock her sense of alities. And I don't care
what she says, Ma, it's causing me suffering. Don't manipulate
me with scripture most different And if you do, I'm
not going to talk to you. As soon as you
(18:13):
start talking scripture to me, I'm gonna end the conversation.
That's the consequence. And if she doesn't end the conversation,
even if you then have to go in the bathroom
and wretch and p or poop on yourself because you're
scared the depth that you just hung up on your mother. Yes,
my son has hung up on me, okay, and I
(18:35):
and instead of getting mad at him, I said, Okay,
what did you say? And when I checked myself, I said, Okay,
you were totally out of live. I don't know how
many mothers or sons are going to hear this, but
I want to thank you for your courage and calling
and being so transparent. You're saying no problem, no problem,
(18:57):
because what I do know is that there are hundreds
of thousands of mothers and hundreds and thousands of sons
who need to hear this. And I appreciate that you
were so respectful in your presentation that people will be
able to hear this. So I thank you so much
(19:18):
for your call today. Do write me, keep me in
touch and what's going on? Okay, bye bye, On behalf
of all mothers, of all sons everywhere, I forgive us
for the chips in our hard drive that prevent, delay,
(19:41):
obstruct or deny our capacity, ability and willingness to see, hold,
and regard our sons as grown man. I forgive myself
and on behalf of all mothers everywhere. I forgive us
for needing our son to validate who we are as mothers. Now.
(20:05):
I don't know if there's any mothers out there listening,
but if you are, and you could get on this
step with me. Clutch your pearls and simply say I
forgive myself for my shortcomings that I projected onto my
son and required that he be better, be more, be different,
(20:27):
And that means that you got to get your stuff together.
We'll be right back. Welcome back to the art Spot.
I am ya La, and today we are talking about
the parent child relationship in my next caller is dealing
(20:50):
with just that. Good afternoon, beloving. I am so well,
thank you for calling the art spot today. How can
I support with you? So, I'm looking for support on
how to exactly approach um this relationship with my mom. Um.
(21:10):
I kind of feel like i'm more so well, let
me say this, I feel like I've developed a mindset
where I'm incapable of seeing exactly what a parent and
child relationship is supposed to be, only because I feel
like I've been through a lot of experiences where I
had to be an adult for myself. I had to
(21:31):
make adult decisions at young ages. I had to, you know,
maneuver like an adult without having the parental guide. And
my mom we butt heads a lot because my mom
is this type of person like and she having a
bad day she's gonna take it out on everybody else.
And like, even before I was born, my family tells
me a lot of stories about me and my sister,
(21:52):
like a lot of stories of my mom just being
very aggressive. Um, and she was like that with us
even growing up, like a lot of physical abuse, Like
you know, punch of eight year olds in the face
because they're not listening isn't the best, you know, applicable
appearance and style, but that's the that she chose and
the actuality is just like I don't like my mom
(22:15):
as a person. So it's just like we haven't spoken
since twenty nineteen, and I just I just really don't
know what to do. I don't know if this is
a situation where I should just kind of leave it
where it is and she has to develop and understand
things or her own or what else can I try
to do? Because I haven't lived with my parents since
I was fourteen, Well, I haven't lived with my mom
(22:35):
since I was fourteen either. What is the core? What
is the crux of the breakdown between you and your mother?
I heard you say she was physically and verbally abusive
to you as a child. Well, what is the what
is the thing that broke you all up in what
was the final store for you. So I'm a senior
in college now, and so in my junior year, UM,
(22:57):
we were having a sexual assault firm and one of
my friends spoke out in the forum and she said
how she had been sexually assaulted and she finally told
her mom, and that's who have brought them closer, like
that was the groundbreaking thing for them. So I was like,
so that really inspired me. So I was like, damn,
Like I saw how that, you know, transformed their relationships
(23:19):
and maybe you know, me expressing a little bit more
of the things that really went on with me that
she might not know about, you know, maybe that will
figue or something. Right. No, I called my mom and like, hey,
you know, I really want to talk to you and
I really want to tell you something. And I had
(23:39):
told her like I had been sexually assaulted, you know
most of the plans when I was younger, and the
first words all her mouth, well, first she asked me
who it was when I told her like, it's not
rathervant like I just don't want to disclose that right now,
and she was like, did not ben as show dumbass this?
And so I'm looking at my phone like is this
really the response that you're gonna have? And so all
(24:01):
I hung up. So my stepdad texting me, it was like,
you need to apologize to your mom toall, and I
was like, well, she has to understand, like the way
that you're coming at me, Why why should I even
feel like you disturb an apology after your person at
me and yelling at me after I'm telling you something
very vulnerablebout my vulnerable about myself. So um, I was
(24:23):
going to my parents house to visit, and my mom
like she as I was on the phone, like coming
to North Carolina from Virginia, she was like to you're
not part of this family. And I was literally bursting out,
like crying, like hysperically crying. And that was the last show.
That was the last time like I ever spoke to her.
(24:45):
I was like, this is it all right? I can't
take this no more. So you have not spoken to
your mother since nineteen that's three years ago a little
more than three years ago, and you're still in breakdown
about your relationship with her. I think the thing that
(25:06):
I find very interesting is you started this conversation by
saying something about a parent child relationship. Yeah, what I
want to offer you is that you can have a
parent adult relationship. You are an adult, the child of
(25:27):
your parents, but you are an adult, and as an
adult you get to say what goes on in your life.
And it sounds to me like you are still responding
to your mother's behavior and your mother's speaking as if
you were a child. Have you ever asked your mother
(25:49):
in a humble, respectful way. Are you willing not to
curse at me when we speak? Have you ever asked
her that, unless I am a I don't even think
that that is possible. Listen, I'm not asking you about
her response to you. I'm asking you, as an adult,
(26:11):
to say what goes on in your life, because it
sounds to me like you're still responding to your mother
as though you were a child. And as a child,
there are things you don't say, that things you don't ask,
there's things you don't do. But you're not a child.
You're an adult, and as an adult you get to
(26:34):
say what goes on in your life. Have you ever
asked your mother not to curseen you or call you
out your name when she's speaking to you? Okay, so
that's what a child would do. But as an adult,
you get to say, Okay, this is a person that
(26:55):
I love and care about who's not willing to respect me.
So I get to choose how to be in relationship
with this person. I get to choose that I will.
You're gonna have a relationship with her until one of
you die. But you, as an adult, get to choose
what that relationship is. And as an adult, you don't
(27:18):
have to be in relationship with anybody that verbally abuses
you unless you choose to. Is that what you choose? Oh? Okay,
So I'd love for us to have communication to be
in relationship, but I cannot be willing. I'm not choosing
to be in relationship with somebody who doesn't respect me
(27:41):
and cursing at me and calling me names that don't
that's not respectful. Don't get caught up as an adult
in her response. See you're caught up in her response.
Could I say that to you? Suppose you called up
here on the arts body and I said, f you
what you're calling me for your stupid so and so?
Would you did you call me back? Would you know?
(28:08):
Here's something that many people, many adult children don't recognize
there are no sacred cows. A cow is a cow
is a cow. There are no sacred cows. I'm not
calling your mother, Kyle. I'm just saying, you know, sometimes
we we hold people in a sacred position and give
them more prominence in our life than we would give
(28:31):
anybody else. You are an adult, my love. It's clicking
in my head and it definitely makes sense on Like
I'm still responding as a kid because even sometimes, like
when I listened to my mom, like even if she's not,
you know, starting something with me or starting something with
my dad step dad, because they're physically they have their
(28:51):
own thing too. So it's like my mom, I see
it and I understand it. Like my mom respond to
things like an angry little kid. It's like she has
a temper. Well, can I say this to you and
hear me, hear me from a place of love and concern.
How she responds is none of your business. She could
be a mass murderer, lunatic running around naked, but when
(29:15):
she comes to your house, she got to put on
some clothes and behave nicely. I don't care you want
to be a mass murderer. If the police don't find you.
That's hey, that's on them. But when you come here,
put some clothes on and don't put your feet up
on my coffee table because I'm an adult, because it's
(29:36):
my boundary. You have to see yourself not as a child,
but as an adult in a respectful relationship with another
adult who gave birth to you. But it's hard. Oh yeah,
so many of us don't know how to do that
because we have so many wounds, unhealed wounds and unhealed
(29:56):
breaks from our childhood. So we continue as a adults
to try to get now what we didn't get then here.
Back then, we couldn't leave home. Back then, we couldn't
speak up. Back then, we couldn't ask for what we wanted.
We were under their, the the big people's whatever. But
now you're you're not under that anymore. So you gotta grow.
(30:20):
You have to do for that little child inside of
you what nobody did for you, which was draw boundaries,
makes specific requests, and have consequences when the boundaries are violated.
And I know that's your mom, that's your heart, but
she's not sacred. Let me ask you this question, what
(30:40):
would it take for you to be in healthy loving
relationship with your mother right now? What do you think
it would take her to therapy? Okay, but that's none
of your business. You can't make your need to be
in relationship with your mother contingent upon what she does.
(31:02):
What do you need to do? What is required of
you to be in healthy loving relationship with your mom
just as she is right now? What is what would
it take? I really don't know. Okay, Well that's what
you gotta work on. Because three and a half years
for you to not speak to somebody and you still
got a question about it. See me, I'm a fan
(31:25):
of the Dollar Tree, even though they're a dollar twenty five?
Now do you like the dollar Tree? I love the
Dollar Tree? So you know what I do? Sometimes I
go to the Dollar Tree and I buy a bunch
of cards, you know, birthday cards, I love you cards.
I think about your cards. Sometimes they got nice cards,
(31:46):
you know. And every now and then when I think
about somebody that I'm not in a balance a harmony with,
I just send him a card, a Dollar Tree card,
thinking about you, and that's it, and that satisfies me.
So I'm making a step. I'm doing something I want
to be in relationship. I don't want to call you.
I don't want to give you the opportunity to cuss
(32:07):
at me. I don't want to do any of that.
But I want you to know I love you. And
I think about here's a dollar Tree card now that
they don't know it comes from the Dollar Tree, because
sometimes the Dollar Tree cards are really nice, you know.
And when I think about some of the things that
they done, that we've done, or they've said, or things
that have happened between them, in my mind, I just said,
(32:27):
I forgive you totally and unconditionally, and all things are
healed between us. Now. That's what I say to myself.
Because you can't bank what you need on what she does. Yeah,
she may never change. That doesn't mean you can't have good,
healthy relationship with her in your heart and in your mind.
(32:49):
I send her card. I sent her five cards a year.
I send her birthday card, I send her mother to
Day card. I don't have to pick up the phone
and call her because I'm not willing to run the
risk that she's not gonna cuss me, hurt me, dishonored me,
disrespect me. But I'm still in relationship with her in
my heart, and mind. Go to the Dollar Tree, and
(33:15):
when those things come up, that you remember I forgive
my mother totally and unconditionally for everything. All things are
healed between us now. And this is what I'm a
guarantee you. You do that sincerely. One day she's gonna
pick up the phone and call you, and you're gonna
(33:36):
look at the phone and say, damn, is this the
same person? But you've got to do that as an adult,
not as a child. Go to the Dollar Tree. That's
your prescription. Drink water, mind your business. Go to the
Dollar Tree. Build your relationship with her in your heart,
(33:58):
regardless of what she does. Okay, yeah, you are not
for a while. You are not call me in six weeks.
Let me know how you're doing. Okay, okay, my love,
thank you for calling. Thank you, bye bye. Where where
we're in our teaching, our our education, Where in our
(34:22):
training are conditioning, our programming as human beings, are we
taught how to move through some of the challenges that
we face in life. We're not not in our relationships,
not in our churches. So whether you're with the person,
see the person, or engage with the person, you still
(34:44):
have to heal the breakdown and you don't have to
be in their presence or say anything harmful. Just thinking
about it keeps the breakdown going. Oh well, well, well
another episode of The Our Spot. I'm going now somewhere
to drink brown look out the bottle because as a mother,
(35:07):
that just triggered up all my stuff because now I've
got grandsons, so how I treat my son is so
very important because his son's are watching. I hope you've
heard or learned something today that you needed in your life.
And if you didn't, be sure to tune in next
week because I'll have more for you. In the meantime,
(35:27):
Stay in peace and not pieces. I'll see you next time.
The R Spot is a production of Shondaland Audio in
partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio,
visit the I Heart Radio Apple Apple podcast, or wherever
(35:50):
you listen to your favorite shows.
I am a Yamla. I had a baby daddy relationship.
I spent time in a relationship with a married man.
I had to learn the skills and tools required to
make my relationships healthy, fulfilling and loving. Welcome to the
Our Spot, a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with
I Heart Radio. I did a show about some of
(00:37):
the nuances of parenting an adult child and how the
parent child relationships ships and change and heels and grows,
and what we parents can get out of it and
what the children may need. Well. As mothers, we make
our sons our emotional husbands and we expect them to
(01:00):
fill us in ways that is not their job to
do so. Very often, as mothers we make our sons
are emotional prisoners, and we manipulate them into being and
doing what we need in order to feel fulfilled. If
you need to forgive yourself, just do it and be
(01:22):
open and willing to have your relationship with your adult
son healed and transformed. We need to talk about it today.
Thank you for your patience and welcome to the Our Spot.
How can I serve aces support you today? Thank you
for having me on um. I was falling in because
(01:46):
I am at my wits end with the relationship dynamic
with my mother. It has been struggling for a while,
but it has intensified over the last seven years since
the passing of my father. Tell me, what is the
crux of the issue with your mom? What does what
does that look like? What's happening, what's going on? I
don't have the respect of my mother as an adult,
(02:09):
as a man. She is for me, it still comes
off and feels like she still has some raising to do.
She still has some uh monitoring and checking and giving
instruction slash correction or under correction under the guise of
instruction or suggestions. She is not accepting or supportive of
(02:34):
my sexuality. I've told her that I'm bisexual. She's been
unable to disconnect that from any other issue. So, for her,
the crux of the issue is my sexuality, whereas for me,
it's that is has nothing to do with anything. For me,
it's more so just a respect as an adult. You
articulated that really, really clearly. My mother doesn't respect me
(02:57):
as a man, and my mother is not at peace
with my sexuality. Why is your sexuality your mother's business?
In my opinion, that savilion dollar questions, because it is
not in according to her, it is how does she
challenge your bisexuality? What does she do? What is she saying?
(03:21):
It's from the religious perspective, So for on the Bible
versus um the repercussions, Uh, you know, telling me all
of the risk and diseases and all of the wonderfulness
that can come from risky behavior. I love that, you know,
that's my word, wonderfulness. Well, it is driven by the
(03:46):
religious perspective, coupled with what she had in mind how
my life should play out. So she wants a grandchild,
she wants the mother daughter, she wants the mother in law.
So that's how it comes off. And as how it ah, Yeah,
the sharp edges of Christianity, the sharp edges of religion
(04:08):
will cut us to death. Why did you choose to
tell your mother that you were bisexual? What? What drove that?
What was your intention? She has had decisions, you know,
in in addition to her being nosy, motherly, all of
the above. That's so I told her that because he
(04:29):
it was just in the moment of being honest and
truthful with her um and not holding it a anymore.
But it ultimately felt like I never did, because it's
still been an argument back and forth forward, going on
over team the years. There's a couple of realities that I,
as a mother, would like to share with you, and
(04:51):
I ask your forgiveness on behalf of all mothers. Okay,
I ask your forgiveness or they have a your mother
and all mothers, all right, But as a mother, grandmother,
great grandmother, I want to share a few things with you. Okay. Uh.
You have disappointed her, Not because you meant to, not
(05:13):
because you intended to, not because it was your job
to live up to what she thought you should be.
But you have disappointed her as a mother. You have
disappointed her because as a mother, there's a chip in
our hard drive that says, anything that's wrong with my
children is my fault. So if the sharp edge of
(05:35):
religion is cutting her to believe that my son man
should get married, have children, make me a grandmother and
you're not moving in that direction, she's disappointed. You have
disappointed your mother. Take a breath on behalf of all mothers,
your mother and all mothers. I forgive us. You have
(05:59):
not become um who she wanted you to be, not
that it was your job to become who she wanted
you to be. But in the mother's consciousness and the
mother's makeup and the mother's being, there's a hard drive
that says, I know better for my children than they do,
and my children, if they live up to what I
(06:20):
think they should be, then I have succeeded as a mother.
Shouldn't be that way, But it is. So. You are
not who she wanted you to be. Take a braath
on behalf of all mother's, your mother and every other mother.
I ask your forgiveness because you do not live up
(06:42):
to her expectations and provide her with the validation, the
external validation she needs in the world as a woman,
as a mother, or as a Christian. So not only
have you disappointed her, not only are you not who
she wants you to be, not only are you shaming
her in the public. Uh huh. You talk about it
(07:05):
like it's okay. I just want you to understand that
because this really isn't about her, It's really about you. Yes,
and forgiveness is your ticket. You say, my mother doesn't
respect me as a man, because and what I'm hearing
(07:26):
here is you having created clear boundaries with her. I've attempted,
but what's the consequence when she violates the boundary? There
hasn't been one, and um ahh yeah, yeah, so there
hasn't been a consequence. And then secondly, since my dad's
past thing, since we have grown even more deeply envessed,
(07:51):
and I shared it with her that we that we
kind of teated the line of investment and emotional interests
because on one side of the border, it's my mama
and honor our mother and our father, that side of it,
and the flip side of it I'm being discussed with,
you know, whether it's some kind of emotional hartship she's
(08:13):
having with maybe someone she might be potentially dating, or
just something personal with her. So it's it's the flip
side coined up being mom and then wanting to be friends.
And for me it's I'm aware of it, and but
there's still no respect there. Okay, so what do you
want to do? So ultimately, I have been preparing myself
(08:36):
really stuck the last six or seven weeks to take
some time apart from her, like to disconnect because we
are into different states and two different CDs. But she
has this thing where we need to talk to every
day and she does it under the guise of anything
could happen at any moment, but you participate in that.
Do you want to talk to you a grown ass man?
(08:57):
Do you want to talk to your mama every day?
I don't. Okay, Well why did you do it? Why
do you do it to satisfy her? And we'll talk
about that when we come back. Welcome back to the
(09:17):
our spot today. We are talking about growing into forgiveness
with your mother. Here's the thing. Daddy died. You're the son,
so you have to be father husband. You have to
step in to fill her husband's role. You made that
up that you don't have to do that. Yeah, I
know I don't have people. That's what That's what I've done. Yeah.
(09:40):
So what I can offer you if you want to
be respected as a man, h then you have to
stand up like a man. Take off your knickers and
your baseball cap, put on your suit and your tie,
your belt and your shiny wing tip shoes and oh,
your mother, what a man looks like in your body?
(10:03):
You want to be respectful and you want to honor her,
and and you want to keep the relationship in time.
Because I'm hearing that your relationship with your mother. Is
an important relationship in your life? Is that accurate? It's
definitely important. One, it feels like a chore, and I
don't want it to feel like it's a chore. Yeah,
(10:25):
and then secondly, I have to I wanted to where
I'm not suffering. Well, yeah, you have to eliminate your
own suffering. But if she doesn't know what it looks
like for you to be a man in your body,
then she can't respect it. She she can't. She don't
know what it looked like. So she's cocked, she's coed.
(10:52):
She's looking at you, but she's seeing a little boy,
and she's leaning on you, and she wants you to
be a man when she's got a problem. But she
you can't tell her what to do. And you okay,
So you gotta put on your suit. You'll tie your
belt and your wing tips shoes, and you've got to
stand up. I love my son, Okay, he take a
(11:15):
bullet from me. I take a bullet for him. We
are friends. We are friends, and I don't talk to
him every day. He lives seven minutes from me. He
has to pass my house to go anywhere in the world.
He has to he don't come here every day, And
if he do come here every day, he I would
(11:37):
what's the matter, what's the what's wrong? Why are you here?
Because he usually comes home when he wants food or comfort.
You know, he don't borrow money. But you know, so
he put his suit and his tie and his wing
tips shoes on a long time ago because I said
to him, I'm gonna stop mothering you. What do you
need me to do? He said, I need you to
(11:58):
be my friend. And he taught me how by having
clear boundaries. I can't call my son and ask him
where he's going, what he's doing, and I have clear
boundaries with him. You have a key to my house,
but that don't mean you get to walk up in
here anytime you want to. I could have somebody up
in here and you can't be walking up in my house. Okay,
(12:22):
So you've got to look at the things that cause
your suffering and eliminate them. Having to talk to your
mother every day causes you suffering. Eliminate them. Is listening
to problems about her boyfriends or her girlfriends or whatever.
If that causes you suffering, eliminate it. And it's just
(12:44):
what we what I call radical communication. Mam, don't talk
to me about your boyfriend. I just I don't want
to hear it. Don't thump me with your bible, don't
do that. I don't want to hear that. So a
couple of things you've gotta be willing to. You've got
to grow the muscleful. Let's start with the easy one. Mom.
I'm not gonna talk to you every day. I'm a
(13:06):
grown man. That's how. That's what you want, right, I'm
a grown man. I don't need to talk to my
mother every day. If you've got a problem, an issue,
a challenge, that's one thing. If I have a problem
and issue a challenge, that's another thing. But I'm not
gonna talk to you every day. Is that something that
you are willing to communicate to her? I'm definitely willing.
(13:27):
Are you ready when I say that to her and
talk you every day? And then if then I get
the manipulation and guilt, anything could happen. You see how
your dad died. It could happen, and you know what,
I'll deal with it when it does. Please forgive me.
I'm asking for your forgiveness on behalf of all your
mother and all mothers mothers can be emotionally manipulative. We
(13:50):
can be emotional vampires, and we will suck your life
right out your eyeballs. Now, most mothers are gonna tell
you that, But I'm gonna tell you that because I've
healed myself of the affliction a man. It's gonna stand
up a man when he recognizes that he's being manipuls
(14:11):
Let me ask you a question. Does your mama pay
your rent? She doesn't, but she will contribute if I need. Okay,
well that a man don't ask his mama for no rent,
So you got to heal that up. You can't ask
your mama for no rent. Now, if you need some
money to help you go on your vacation, that's different.
But a man handles his basics. So you can't act
(14:34):
like a boy and expect her to see you as
your man. I don't care if you got to borrow
it from the hobo on the corner. Don't you never
ask your mama for no more money to pay your rent?
That is a contradiction. You can't act like a boy
and expect her to see you as a man. So
she don't pay your rent? Does she pick your partners
for you? Suggestions. And when you she makes a suggestion
(14:57):
of what do you say? I don't respond, you know,
I just say no, no, no, no, no no. Would
you let anybody in the street just say whatever they
want to say to you? No, no, no, no. You
don't have pearls. So let me just say this, I
would say to a lady, clutch your pearls. I'm gonna
say to you, clutch your crotch. Your mama can't see
(15:21):
you as a man because you ain't acting like one.
I know it's your mother, but she's a woman and
you cannot expect more or less from her than you
would from any other grown adult woman. You cannot. She's
not a sacred coyle that you have to protect and preserve. Yes,
(15:43):
you want to have a healthy, respectful relationship with her,
but you also want a friend, an elder woman, a
wise woman who respects your intellect, who respects your choices.
She don't have to like them, but she respects that.
She's got to be a soul off place for you
to fall. Not when you go to her that she's
(16:04):
gonna thump you on the head with the Bible and
condemn you to hell. No, you have to be a
man in order for her to respect you as a man.
Can you hear me, beloved, You got to create some
boundaries with her, because boundaries are not going to keep
her out, Boundaries are gonna keep you safe. Yes, but
(16:26):
I want you to That's why I was sharing with
you what she's carrying in her consciousness, so that you
will understand you've disappointed her because you're not who she
wanted you to be, and you're not living up to
her need for external validation. And none of that is
your work. That's not your work. That's for her to
(16:47):
figure out. You are a respectful adult man, the son
of a woman who's disappointed and who needs external validation,
but that you need some clear boundaries. So let's start
with the simple thing. You make a commitment to yourself
that you will never ask your mother for no more
(17:08):
rent and get her out of the intricate details of
your business. If you ain't gonna marry the person, don't
take them over there to meet for right now. Don't
tell her who you're dating. Don't talk to her about
your dating problem, don't talk to her about your problems.
Don't talk to don't not until she can be a friend.
(17:29):
She can't be a friend right now, and some of
those little behaviors, the little things. If it lands in
your belly and it don't feel right, say MA, I'm
not gonna do this with you anymore. Please forgive me.
I know we've been doing this, but this no longer.
This is causing me suffering. I don't want to hear
about your boyfriend. Don't manipulate me with Bible verses. This
(17:52):
is causing me suffering. And I'm telling giving you this
language because I want you to give you a key
to unlock her sense of alities. And I don't care
what she says, Ma, it's causing me suffering. Don't manipulate
me with scripture most different And if you do, I'm
not going to talk to you. As soon as you
(18:13):
start talking scripture to me, I'm gonna end the conversation.
That's the consequence. And if she doesn't end the conversation,
even if you then have to go in the bathroom
and wretch and p or poop on yourself because you're
scared the depth that you just hung up on your mother. Yes,
my son has hung up on me, okay, and I
(18:35):
and instead of getting mad at him, I said, Okay,
what did you say? And when I checked myself, I said, Okay,
you were totally out of live. I don't know how
many mothers or sons are going to hear this, but
I want to thank you for your courage and calling
and being so transparent. You're saying no problem, no problem,
(18:57):
because what I do know is that there are hundreds
of thousands of mothers and hundreds and thousands of sons
who need to hear this. And I appreciate that you
were so respectful in your presentation that people will be
able to hear this. So I thank you so much
(19:18):
for your call today. Do write me, keep me in
touch and what's going on? Okay, bye bye, On behalf
of all mothers, of all sons everywhere, I forgive us
for the chips in our hard drive that prevent, delay,
(19:41):
obstruct or deny our capacity, ability and willingness to see, hold,
and regard our sons as grown man. I forgive myself
and on behalf of all mothers everywhere. I forgive us
for needing our son to validate who we are as mothers. Now.
(20:05):
I don't know if there's any mothers out there listening,
but if you are, and you could get on this
step with me. Clutch your pearls and simply say I
forgive myself for my shortcomings that I projected onto my
son and required that he be better, be more, be different,
(20:27):
And that means that you got to get your stuff together.
We'll be right back. Welcome back to the art Spot.
I am ya La, and today we are talking about
the parent child relationship in my next caller is dealing
(20:50):
with just that. Good afternoon, beloving. I am so well,
thank you for calling the art spot today. How can
I support with you? So, I'm looking for support on
how to exactly approach um this relationship with my mom. Um.
(21:10):
I kind of feel like i'm more so well, let
me say this, I feel like I've developed a mindset
where I'm incapable of seeing exactly what a parent and
child relationship is supposed to be, only because I feel
like I've been through a lot of experiences where I
had to be an adult for myself. I had to
(21:31):
make adult decisions at young ages. I had to, you know,
maneuver like an adult without having the parental guide. And
my mom we butt heads a lot because my mom
is this type of person like and she having a
bad day she's gonna take it out on everybody else.
And like, even before I was born, my family tells
me a lot of stories about me and my sister,
(21:52):
like a lot of stories of my mom just being
very aggressive. Um, and she was like that with us
even growing up, like a lot of physical abuse, Like
you know, punch of eight year olds in the face
because they're not listening isn't the best, you know, applicable
appearance and style, but that's the that she chose and
the actuality is just like I don't like my mom
(22:15):
as a person. So it's just like we haven't spoken
since twenty nineteen, and I just I just really don't
know what to do. I don't know if this is
a situation where I should just kind of leave it
where it is and she has to develop and understand
things or her own or what else can I try
to do? Because I haven't lived with my parents since
I was fourteen, Well, I haven't lived with my mom
(22:35):
since I was fourteen either. What is the core? What
is the crux of the breakdown between you and your mother?
I heard you say she was physically and verbally abusive
to you as a child. Well, what is the what
is the thing that broke you all up in what
was the final store for you. So I'm a senior
in college now, and so in my junior year, UM,
(22:57):
we were having a sexual assault firm and one of
my friends spoke out in the forum and she said
how she had been sexually assaulted and she finally told
her mom, and that's who have brought them closer, like
that was the groundbreaking thing for them. So I was like,
so that really inspired me. So I was like, damn,
Like I saw how that, you know, transformed their relationships
(23:19):
and maybe you know, me expressing a little bit more
of the things that really went on with me that
she might not know about, you know, maybe that will
figue or something. Right. No, I called my mom and like, hey,
you know, I really want to talk to you and
I really want to tell you something. And I had
(23:39):
told her like I had been sexually assaulted, you know
most of the plans when I was younger, and the
first words all her mouth, well, first she asked me
who it was when I told her like, it's not
rathervant like I just don't want to disclose that right now,
and she was like, did not ben as show dumbass this?
And so I'm looking at my phone like is this
really the response that you're gonna have? And so all
(24:01):
I hung up. So my stepdad texting me, it was like,
you need to apologize to your mom toall, and I
was like, well, she has to understand, like the way
that you're coming at me, Why why should I even
feel like you disturb an apology after your person at
me and yelling at me after I'm telling you something
very vulnerablebout my vulnerable about myself. So um, I was
(24:23):
going to my parents house to visit, and my mom
like she as I was on the phone, like coming
to North Carolina from Virginia, she was like to you're
not part of this family. And I was literally bursting out,
like crying, like hysperically crying. And that was the last show.
That was the last time like I ever spoke to her.
(24:45):
I was like, this is it all right? I can't
take this no more. So you have not spoken to
your mother since nineteen that's three years ago a little
more than three years ago, and you're still in breakdown
about your relationship with her. I think the thing that
(25:06):
I find very interesting is you started this conversation by
saying something about a parent child relationship. Yeah, what I
want to offer you is that you can have a
parent adult relationship. You are an adult, the child of
(25:27):
your parents, but you are an adult, and as an
adult you get to say what goes on in your life.
And it sounds to me like you are still responding
to your mother's behavior and your mother's speaking as if
you were a child. Have you ever asked your mother
(25:49):
in a humble, respectful way. Are you willing not to
curse at me when we speak? Have you ever asked
her that, unless I am a I don't even think
that that is possible. Listen, I'm not asking you about
her response to you. I'm asking you, as an adult,
(26:11):
to say what goes on in your life, because it
sounds to me like you're still responding to your mother
as though you were a child. And as a child,
there are things you don't say, that things you don't ask,
there's things you don't do. But you're not a child.
You're an adult, and as an adult you get to
(26:34):
say what goes on in your life. Have you ever
asked your mother not to curseen you or call you
out your name when she's speaking to you? Okay, so
that's what a child would do. But as an adult,
you get to say, Okay, this is a person that
(26:55):
I love and care about who's not willing to respect me.
So I get to choose how to be in relationship
with this person. I get to choose that I will.
You're gonna have a relationship with her until one of
you die. But you, as an adult, get to choose
what that relationship is. And as an adult, you don't
(27:18):
have to be in relationship with anybody that verbally abuses
you unless you choose to. Is that what you choose? Oh? Okay,
So I'd love for us to have communication to be
in relationship, but I cannot be willing. I'm not choosing
to be in relationship with somebody who doesn't respect me
(27:41):
and cursing at me and calling me names that don't
that's not respectful. Don't get caught up as an adult
in her response. See you're caught up in her response.
Could I say that to you? Suppose you called up
here on the arts body and I said, f you
what you're calling me for your stupid so and so?
Would you did you call me back? Would you know?
(28:08):
Here's something that many people, many adult children don't recognize
there are no sacred cows. A cow is a cow
is a cow. There are no sacred cows. I'm not
calling your mother, Kyle. I'm just saying, you know, sometimes
we we hold people in a sacred position and give
them more prominence in our life than we would give
(28:31):
anybody else. You are an adult, my love. It's clicking
in my head and it definitely makes sense on Like
I'm still responding as a kid because even sometimes, like
when I listened to my mom, like even if she's not,
you know, starting something with me or starting something with
my dad step dad, because they're physically they have their
(28:51):
own thing too. So it's like my mom, I see
it and I understand it. Like my mom respond to
things like an angry little kid. It's like she has
a temper. Well, can I say this to you and
hear me, hear me from a place of love and concern.
How she responds is none of your business. She could
be a mass murderer, lunatic running around naked, but when
(29:15):
she comes to your house, she got to put on
some clothes and behave nicely. I don't care you want
to be a mass murderer. If the police don't find you.
That's hey, that's on them. But when you come here,
put some clothes on and don't put your feet up
on my coffee table because I'm an adult, because it's
(29:36):
my boundary. You have to see yourself not as a child,
but as an adult in a respectful relationship with another
adult who gave birth to you. But it's hard. Oh yeah,
so many of us don't know how to do that
because we have so many wounds, unhealed wounds and unhealed
(29:56):
breaks from our childhood. So we continue as a adults
to try to get now what we didn't get then here.
Back then, we couldn't leave home. Back then, we couldn't
speak up. Back then, we couldn't ask for what we wanted.
We were under their, the the big people's whatever. But
now you're you're not under that anymore. So you gotta grow.
(30:20):
You have to do for that little child inside of
you what nobody did for you, which was draw boundaries,
makes specific requests, and have consequences when the boundaries are violated.
And I know that's your mom, that's your heart, but
she's not sacred. Let me ask you this question, what
(30:40):
would it take for you to be in healthy loving
relationship with your mother right now? What do you think
it would take her to therapy? Okay, but that's none
of your business. You can't make your need to be
in relationship with your mother contingent upon what she does.
(31:02):
What do you need to do? What is required of
you to be in healthy loving relationship with your mom
just as she is right now? What is what would
it take? I really don't know. Okay, Well that's what
you gotta work on. Because three and a half years
for you to not speak to somebody and you still
got a question about it. See me, I'm a fan
(31:25):
of the Dollar Tree, even though they're a dollar twenty five?
Now do you like the dollar Tree? I love the
Dollar Tree? So you know what I do? Sometimes I
go to the Dollar Tree and I buy a bunch
of cards, you know, birthday cards, I love you cards.
I think about your cards. Sometimes they got nice cards,
(31:46):
you know. And every now and then when I think
about somebody that I'm not in a balance a harmony with,
I just send him a card, a Dollar Tree card,
thinking about you, and that's it, and that satisfies me.
So I'm making a step. I'm doing something I want
to be in relationship. I don't want to call you.
I don't want to give you the opportunity to cuss
(32:07):
at me. I don't want to do any of that.
But I want you to know I love you. And
I think about here's a dollar Tree card now that
they don't know it comes from the Dollar Tree, because
sometimes the Dollar Tree cards are really nice, you know.
And when I think about some of the things that
they done, that we've done, or they've said, or things
that have happened between them, in my mind, I just said,
(32:27):
I forgive you totally and unconditionally, and all things are
healed between us. Now. That's what I say to myself.
Because you can't bank what you need on what she does. Yeah,
she may never change. That doesn't mean you can't have good,
healthy relationship with her in your heart and in your mind.
(32:49):
I send her card. I sent her five cards a year.
I send her birthday card, I send her mother to
Day card. I don't have to pick up the phone
and call her because I'm not willing to run the
risk that she's not gonna cuss me, hurt me, dishonored me,
disrespect me. But I'm still in relationship with her in
my heart, and mind. Go to the Dollar Tree, and
(33:15):
when those things come up, that you remember I forgive
my mother totally and unconditionally for everything. All things are
healed between us now. And this is what I'm a
guarantee you. You do that sincerely. One day she's gonna
pick up the phone and call you, and you're gonna
(33:36):
look at the phone and say, damn, is this the
same person? But you've got to do that as an adult,
not as a child. Go to the Dollar Tree. That's
your prescription. Drink water, mind your business. Go to the
Dollar Tree. Build your relationship with her in your heart,
(33:58):
regardless of what she does. Okay, yeah, you are not
for a while. You are not call me in six weeks.
Let me know how you're doing. Okay, okay, my love,
thank you for calling. Thank you, bye bye. Where where
we're in our teaching, our our education, Where in our
(34:22):
training are conditioning, our programming as human beings, are we
taught how to move through some of the challenges that
we face in life. We're not not in our relationships,
not in our churches. So whether you're with the person,
see the person, or engage with the person, you still
(34:44):
have to heal the breakdown and you don't have to
be in their presence or say anything harmful. Just thinking
about it keeps the breakdown going. Oh well, well, well
another episode of The Our Spot. I'm going now somewhere
to drink brown look out the bottle because as a mother,
(35:07):
that just triggered up all my stuff because now I've
got grandsons, so how I treat my son is so
very important because his son's are watching. I hope you've
heard or learned something today that you needed in your life.
And if you didn't, be sure to tune in next
week because I'll have more for you. In the meantime,
(35:27):
Stay in peace and not pieces. I'll see you next time.
The R Spot is a production of Shondaland Audio in
partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio,
visit the I Heart Radio Apple Apple podcast, or wherever
(35:50):
you listen to your favorite shows.
Host
Iyanla Vanzant
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