January 31, 2024 • 41 mins
In a special episode, Iyanla is joined by actor Courtney B. Vance and Dr. Robin Smith to discuss their new book: The Invisible Ache, which dives deep into the pain that men feel but rarely acknowledge. And to explore the idea, a caller joins to discuss how he’s lost his self confidence and doesn’t think he has the strength to lift the burden off his shoulders.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
I am a Yamla. I had a baby daddy relationship.
I spent time in a relationship with a married man.
I had to learn the skills and tools required to
make my relationships healthy, fulfilling and loving. Welcome to the
R Spot, a production of shondaland Audio in partnership with
iHeartRadio Ground Rising. Great day, wherever you are, and welcome
(00:40):
to our spot, the place we come to talk about relationships,
all types of relationships, but particularly the relationship that we
are having with ourself, which influences and impacts the relationships
that we have with all other people. And I am excited.
(01:01):
I'm telling you, I am excited about our conversation today
dealing with men and their relationship with themselves as it
is presented by my guest today. I've got guests today
as it is presented by my guest. In the book
The Invisible Ache, Black Men Identifying their Pain and Reclaiming
(01:26):
their Power, presented to the world by Courtney B. Vance
and doctor Robin L. Smith. You know these people, you
know them, I know them. I love them. Courtney B.
Vance we know from his work and stage and screen.
I know him as Da Carver from the Law and
Order because you know, I am a Law and Order fan.
(01:47):
I think I've seen every episode eighty six times. But
we know him and we love him, the beloved husband
of Angela Bassett, who has shared his heart and his
soul with the intention of supporting men and identifying their
pain and reclaiming their power. He is joined in that
(02:08):
effort by doctor Robin L. Smith, renowned psychologists. We've seen
her everywhere. She shares from her heart, and she is
committed to the health and the healing of people of color,
but of all people, Doctor Robin. We call her because
we love her. Welcome, mister Courtney, doctor Robin, Welcome to
(02:31):
the art spot. And I have to thank you for
the Invisible Ache. Oh my god, I can't put it down,
so thank you for being here today. Why Courtney, Why now?
Why ache? Why tell me why?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
I lost my father to suicide thirty three years ago
and the journey of that to marriage and to healing
into today. And then three years ago I lost my
god son to suicide. And I said to myself and
(03:12):
then to Miss Gilda by our publicist, I said, that's enough.
I've got to say something. I've got to do something.
And Miss Gilda and put myself and doctor the inimitable
Doctor Robin l together and it was a match made
in heaven and we we just we don't need nobody
(03:35):
in the middle of us. We just talked, and that's
what we're going to do today.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Oh my god, Doctor Robin. The way this book is
learned out how Courtney shares and then you assess and
give tools. I think that is just genius. You said
this in the book. When I met Courtney it had
been thirty three years since his father's suicide. And then
you go on to say that black men's mental health,
(04:03):
that too many of them suffer alone. Talk to me
about that suffering.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Yeah, suffering alone. And thank you again for this moment.
Ian looe with you for Courtney and I to come.
He and I are partners, and you and I have
journeyed a long time together. So it's an honor to
bring the Invisible Ache to this space. Suffering alone, suffering
in silence. You know I talk about in The Invisible
(04:31):
Ache that silence is not always golden. It can be deadly.
And so often men in general and black men specifically
have been taught, rewarded, punished for having their feelings. You know,
I went on to pay a bill recently, and Courtney
(04:54):
and I had been on the road sharing the Invisible Ache,
and this I shared this with him and the audience
that a message came up and it said, verify you
are human. Not I am not a robot. Not right,
not I am not a robot, but verify you are human.
(05:16):
And immediately I felt for all boys and men, but
particularly again Black boys and men who have been challenged
as to whether or not they are human, full and
whole humans, with all of their feelings and all of
their You know, I say that tears are our teacher,
(05:36):
but how many of our black boys and men have
been stripped and robbed and really sanctioned to silence, almost
solitary confinement. And so we are breaking that silence. We're
breaking the shame of boys and men who were told
(05:57):
to man up. And what we're saying is part of
manning up is claiming your whole humanity.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Thank you, doctor Rob, you can bring it off, so beautiful,
go ahead.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
We've got a caller who is in that exact spot
talking about defining his manhood and what it means. I
want to bring him on so that he can share
with you, and you can share with him and let's
get his ache addressed to the best of our ability.
Greetings beloved, and welcome to the R Spot. We are
(06:31):
talking today to Courtney B. Vance and doctor Robin L.
Smith about the invisible ache. Please share with us your
dilemma at this time.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
Well, it's great to be on your show. Briefly, of
what attracted me to the post that I seen yesterday
was the fact that the word invisible ache spoke so
harshly to me that I knew it was a real thing.
And I've realized that the invisible ache that we all
go through as people is the miseducation, especially as a
(07:03):
Black man. On how miseducated I was and misled to
do things a certain way in our community has led
to nothing but at one point, nothing but downfall, and
it eventually hurt that I had to basically endure and
try to, I guess, rebrand what I became by going
(07:24):
through my maturity. But I believe the more mature I
believe that I got, the more hurt I kept discovering,
and it became a whack of mole of emotions I
kept going through, Like every time I just I saw
one issue I come up with three others that I
didn't realize this is way deeper the surface level of
what I thought I went through, and it just became
(07:46):
a self not a self hatred of my community, but
just a global self awareness of that my community, especially
as men go through And that's why I believe I
go through the hurt, the emotion despite me not you
my emotions. I still have feelings on how I go
through things, but as men, we get told not to
feel it. You just have to keep pushing and keep moving.
(08:07):
And I grew up saying yes, I'm going to keep
pushing and move and keep my head up. But then
when everyone leaves the room I have to kind of
go in the corner for a while, you know.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
So, beloved man asked you a question. I heard you say,
the mis education. So that Courtney and doctor Robin can
help you, can you give us a specific so that
we can find common ground.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
A very specific. To be honest with you, is, for instance,
when it came to professionalism, I would say, uh, you know,
I was taught to, you know, be kind to your
fellow co workers. Otherwise this would happen. But the more
you give to others, the more they take or especially
in the black community, Hey be nice to your fellow
you know, black sister, and we would try to be
(08:49):
nice to them, but then we would get mistreated, you know,
because we were so nice to them, especially grow up
in the city that I'm from, or whenever it comes like,
hey being you know, be nice to your fellow black mats.
You know. When it came to family, I was also
taught to, hey, respect your elders. But when it came
to putting up a healthy bouncher, say hey, mother or auntie, uncle,
(09:11):
this isn't right, they will say, hey, don't disrespect your elders,
or they'll just exil you from the family. When all
I did was follow what you told me to do.
But I thought I did everything right, but all I
got was the wrong outcome. As growing up, I had
to be kind of conscious of what am I exactly
supposed to do because what I am taught to the
world and from the world, it's a different reaction than
(09:32):
how the world actually gave it to me.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
The ways in which people have disappointed you, you've been
and we all have been miseducated. We have been conditioned
as people, but particularly as black people, and particularly as
black boys and men. You know, when boys fall down
and hurt themselves, we tell them to get up and
stop that crying. When girls fall we pick them up,
(09:56):
we kiss their boo boo, We picked a certain color
band aid for them. And then we wonder why, as men,
a lot of their entitlement to all of their feelings
is not there. And so I want to invite you
to not get stuck. That doesn't mean you deny your pain.
(10:16):
It means that you use it as a stepping stone.
And I hear you waiting in some ways, and I've
done this, so I understand this waiting for someone else
to tell you to validate that your feelings are real.
And I'm wondering what would happen today? He and Courtney
(10:38):
can really weigh into this, what will happen today if
you decide, even if your Mama and grandmam and aunties
and the other people, if they don't see you, can
you decide today that you see you? And Courtney bevancies you,
and doctor Robin sees you, and Iyanla sees you. But
(10:59):
what is most important is can you make a decision
to no longer be invisible and have your aches and
your pains and your holes. You know, I say, we
all have holes h o l e s we are
longing to be whole w h o O l e,
which is a holy h O l y journey.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
I love as well.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Yeah that was good, right, this one fill your holes
so you can be whole and that is a holy journey.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Wow, that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Yeah did you hear? What can you choose? Have you chosen?
Will you choose to be seen today? And how does
that make you feel?
Speaker 5 (11:47):
Just to consider that if it was almost like a
burden at first. But I have to look through the
pain and I have to ignore the pain, just like
what we do when we lift weights, and I feel
once I am I'm able to do that. I'm going
to not literally, but I'm going to, you know, spiritually
parba mentally cry about it, but lift that heavy pain
(12:09):
off myself.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
You don't need to ignore your pain when we're lifting weights.
When I'm a runner and so when I'm jogging, I
can't really ignore what I'm feeling. What I can do
is give myself a new message about the pain I'm feeling.
So I want to caution you you don't need to
ignore your pain. You want to read language what your
(12:33):
pain is here to teach you what it is here,
how it's going to instruct you. And the other part
is we're longing, all of us for somebody, and Ianla
did this for hundreds of people, to fix our lives,
to fix our heart, our hearts, to fix our relationships.
And the reality is, and you know, like Prince Charming
(12:56):
isn't coming, Princess Charming isn't coming. But the person you've
been waiting for your whole life, the person I've been
waiting for my whole life. Guess what. That person has arrived.
And it's you. It's you awake, it's you committed to you,
it's you open to your own power and your own transformation.
(13:22):
And so what I'm saying to you, I did not
learn this in books. You know, if you've been following
Iyanla for years, she learned what she learned. Of course,
she's smart and she's brilliant and she's all of that,
but she's suffered and she has converted her suffering into
a platform of elevation. And so we are inviting you
(13:47):
to the same power. We're not special, there's nothing unique
about me or Courtney or Yanla. We just made a
decision to take all that stuff that hurt us and
use it for pay and for purpose and for transformation.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
We'll talk more about it when we come back. Welcome
back to the R spot. Let's pick up where we
left off. How does it happen that men become disenchanted
or they lose trust or faith in their own personal strength?
(14:28):
How does that happen?
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Well, you know, our parents were raised in a different time.
It happens in every generation. Our parents were raised in
the depression. So that's a whole different reality that they've
given to us. Some some fears and some things that
they had to deal with that you know that that
(14:51):
that that my parents didn't have to deal with. Okay,
so then, but but they were taught that way. So
my parents passed on some of their fear is to me.
So I come to be thirty years old and did
the best I could to get to where I was
with what they gave me. Now, the rest of it,
(15:13):
from thirty on, or whenever you come to that, you
hit that roadblock in your life in your mind, the
rest of it is on me. The rest of it
is on me to try to connect with other people,
you know, because you don't have to. You can go
to the rest of your life exactly where you are,
go as far as your parents there, their instructions will
(15:39):
take you. And at thirty I could have stopped and said,
I'm done. Whatever happens to me is whatever happens to me,
that's life. I could have made all the excuses and gone,
you know whatever, boo, I'm gonna be this is me,
and that would be fine. I probably wouldn't be here
right now because all I knew was what my father did,
(16:03):
and he taught me everything, so I would be like,
well he did it, It's okay to be done that way,
that's what that's like. But I said no, no, my
mother said no. First of all, my mother took me
in my sister's side and said we're going to break this.
Go find someone to talk to. Now that was foreign
(16:25):
to me that I actually could I can do that.
I mean, that's the thing you can do, to talk
to somebody, talk about what what we're going to talk about.
And so I'm growing, I'm I'm She gave me a charge.
I followed it, and but at every step there was darkness.
(16:46):
So I continually come up up against myself and I
continually we continually can go I'm done. I don't want
to do that. That's too much work. But as doctor
Robin tells tells us that suffering is work, we're so
used to being able to that. That's our reality. That
(17:06):
that's life is suffering, and life is not suffering. Life
is supposed to be abundance. But there's nobody encouraging us
toward abundance. And sometimes, as my Bible tells me, you've
got to encourage your own self. You've got to find
a way to keep going. As Jonathan you told us,
(17:27):
you got to keep going. Somebody told you to keep
that's that's what you just got to keep and you do.
You got to press until you find someone else to
help you take past the batonda to go to the
next But because ultimately I said, I got to get
myself ready for the next time as someone wonderful comes
into my life to be able to deal with them.
(17:50):
And and at a certain point, your life can't be
your grandmother's or your or your mama's life. You got
to take responsibility for your life. And what do I
want to do? What I want better? I want better,
I want more than what my grandma mede than my
mother dealt with and knows about. And that's the journey.
(18:11):
Life's journey begins, is beginning for you. And that's why
we're going around the country talking to let men and
women and people know life is not exact all that
just this where you your parents were able to bring
you to and everybody and it don't have two parents,
some people don't have parents at all. But it begins
(18:32):
with a discussion. Let's start talking about get some tools
and let's hear your pain so we can begin to
give you ideas and tools to begin to go. Okay,
let me take another step. I want to take another step,
because if you don't want to take those steps, it's done.
Can anybody make you do nothing? But we're here to
(18:54):
say it's possible.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Let me ask you this, what is it that makes
you think you don't have the strength to carry yourself
to where you need to be. Is there a particular
thought or feeling? Is it something you were taught or told?
What makes you think that you don't have the strength.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
When I get told that you ain't sugar honey iced tea,
I ask myself reassure myself that that is not true.
But what I tend to do is that I tend
to look away and turn the cheek and then slowly
turn my head to think is that possibly true? And
(19:36):
I think I started to lean into it, and instead
of becoming what I was accused of, I just was
defensive not I now know spent overspent my energy to
the point that I realized that emotional currency, that strength
is being depleted. I'm starting to overdraft now. I can't
(19:59):
wait to move gone, but knowing that I haven't moved
a single inch.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Well, you know, the victory is you're here. The victory
is that you're here, you're on the phone with us.
The victory is you took the step to call. You
didn't have to call. That lets us know that, lets
me know that you're you're ready for the next step.
You can't go any further, that's what you're saying. You've
gone as far as you can go by yourself, and
(20:26):
doctor Robin he needs some tools to go further. You
want to go, but you're emotionally spent from trying to
do it yourself, and the people that around you can't
help you because they tell you you ain't sugar honey
iced tea. But you know in your spirit you are,
(20:47):
so doctor Robin, help, let's give my man some tools.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Yeah, yeah, you know. I Courtney, thank you for reminding
us how important the tools are, and also that it's
important that we make the decision because it is a choice, Jonathan,
we can end up being. I think one of the
biggest addictions is the addiction to our suffering. And I
(21:16):
want you to be aware that you've become comfortable even
though you're hurting, You've become comfortable with your ache. And
so part of what Courtney and I am the Invisible
Ache is all about. It is becoming uncomfortable with suffering.
(21:40):
It is becoming uncomfortable with aching being how you live
your life. So one of the tools, and Courtney said this,
that the people who are not affirming you, I'm wondering,
is there anyone in your life who does affirm you?
As we've talked about maybe some of the people who don't,
(22:02):
But who's healthy in your life, who's doing their own work,
who's been to therapy, who is telling the truth about
their invisible aid, that's in your life?
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Honestly, that will be my life. She's been a great
support system, she's been a great witness to what I've
been through and unfortunately my suffering was weaponized on her
throughout the years. Is because I always would look at
her and say, you don't know what you're talking about.
You don't know what you're talking about. That family, you know, now,
I'm always going to have them until you wake up.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
So right now, so I hear it got weaponized. But
you know, you have a lot of insight. This is
what's good. Not only did you call, you have a
lot of insight. And you recognize that your wife is
your partner. She's part of the blueprint for your liberation.
Did you know that.
Speaker 4 (22:59):
I've seen that, Yes, and I wanted to recognize it
because I feel like I never gave her enough credit
because she's always working under blueprint.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
And this is I want to caution you. The past
beckons all of us to come laid down in it
and stay. And so I just want to invite you.
Courtney could be talking today not about his father's death
by suicide thirty three years ago and his godson suicide.
(23:28):
Courtney could end other things that he shares in the
invisible way. He could nurse and rehearse that trauma. So Jonathan,
I one tool. I'm going to ask you to begin
to withdraw from the addiction of nursing and rehearsing what
(23:49):
didn't go well yesterday or ten years ago. See what
we focus on grows, and what grows has dominion over us,
and what is growing in your life before today? What's
the trauma? Today? Now is a new day, and the
tools are how do you starve the lie and feed
(24:12):
the truth.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
We'll talk about that when we come back. Welcome back
to the R spot. Let's get back to the conversation.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
You have a wife who is your partner in truth
and in integrity, so you can apologize to her when
we're finished. You can say, you know what, not only
did I wake up, I'm woke, like all the way awake,
and now I'm ready to move forward, not denying the past.
But the past is over. You have the opportunity now
(24:49):
to nurse and rehearse what is genuinely true about you.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
We'll do first.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
I want you to know that you were heard, but
I want to hear what did you hear? Doctor Robins
saying you don't have to repeat her words, but I
just want to see how it lands in your body, how.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
It lends in my head? Is that to deny the
past is a form of way of that. I've always
been able to lie to myself because I always denying
it and I always lie in it at the same time.
And I think what we need to do is that
what I need to do is that I need to
focus on the future, and the future is the only
(25:32):
mouldible truth that I could still make to myself to
this day. And when it comes to what she said
earlier about repurposing my language, I think, and I think,
I know I would need to turn my anger into
motivation to do better. And I can no longer continue
to weaponize my suffering onto myself and others. That's how
(25:56):
I internalize my God.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
All I want to say, my God, Jonathan, we need
to just get up right now, because this is the beginning.
You've caught yourself, you are coaching yourself. You're ready, You're there.
And I'm not saying there's no work. Look, I'm doing
work every day of my life to be more of
(26:19):
who I am. But you have in you the spirit
of truth, and you've got the courage to lift whatever
burdens have been on you, to roll them off and
move on. I hear it, I see it. It's exciting.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
It does feel good to speak on this. Like again,
my wife has been a great outlet, but it's you know,
just you know, having three other outlets to know take
turns in a very fair and you know, prompt way.
It's been a bit of a relief as well.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
Did you ever think about going to therapy? Not long term,
but just go sit somewhere where somebody is all about that?
Speaker 4 (27:01):
Yes, my wife, we are considering couple's therapy just to
keep things good, just to know, make sure things are
still in balance. And I also have my own therapist
on my own base. I'm in a military, but I
also have my own military therapist as well. And I'm
(27:22):
looking to help try to mitigate this the situations that
I might bring out in my words and try to
you know, use those outlets along with my wife and
sources like you guys, and soon will be a new
purchase of your Invisible Age. I will try to use
as many resources as I can to try to learn
(27:42):
something new every day because I'm not living if I'm
not learning about myself. Now that's something I do. That's
a long journey. I want to continue. With my wife, no, no,
with herd hand and with myself. Even she even says
she doesn't have to be here, but as long as
she knows that I'm having some type of journey, because
I can tell that my journey is long through.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
If I could leave you with three things, it would
be this. Number one, everybody's got issues, so you haven't
done anything wrong. The other thing is you are not
the only one in the room who has this issue,
who has these challenges. The third thing is to just
(28:20):
be mindful where you're working with and living from an
outdated program. That's what doctor Robin was saying, focusing on
the hurt you are living with an outdated programs. I
want to encourage you to do your counseling, coaching therapy.
That's number one. Number two, get a copy of The
Invisible Ache and start working through it. And number three,
(28:42):
in January, come join the book club and we're going
to work through it and get it done. I hope
this has been helpful for you, Jonathan.
Speaker 4 (28:49):
This is very much as.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Thank you for calling and be sure to tune in
and listen to the art spot.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Thank you for sharing.
Speaker 4 (28:56):
You all have been an absolute pleasure. Have every rest of today, Okay,
thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
From you, Courtney, as as men begin to read this book,
because I'm gonna make sure that they get it read
anybody with two eyeballs. My favorite chapter is makes me
want to holler. But anyway, as men go through this,
what do you want them to walk away with themselves?
Speaker 2 (29:21):
The victory of themselves that they they can reclaim or
claim that the freedom of the fulfillment of being able
to stand and you know, and and you know, I'm
I'm always evolving and I do that by just breathing
and living and reading and the excitement of you know,
(29:44):
of seeing the where the world is is going and
at this and not our bishop years ago said you
got to look at you got to look at the
way when people do things psych a psychiatrists or a psychologists,
and when people disappoint your and say things that are crazy,
you just go, isn't that interesting? Because they're always there
(30:08):
are The world is going to be? Is it was
this way when you got here, This is going to
be this way when you leave it. So it's not
don't get depressed about the world. The world was was
the world we inherited. My generation inherited was Vietnam, Watergate assassinations, riots,
(30:29):
and so it's there's there's no difference. The only difference
in that world. In this world is this phone. And
the technology has shifted such that things are are happening
so fast that we've got to emotionally do what we're
doing now to recover ourselves so that this phone doesn't
wag the dog. This phone is wagging us. We've got
(30:53):
to wag the phone. This is my phone, and it's
just a phone. It doesn't control me. And so that's
the journey of just getting back ourselves, talking to each other,
getting truths as opposed to lies and misconceptions, and being
(31:13):
able to go, oh wow, I didn't know. Can I
do that? I can say that? Okay, I mean that's
the journey.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Doc, Doctor Robin, I want to I want you to
give me this specifically, how do they begin to identify
the ache? Because so many men don't even have the
emotional language, they don't have the vocabulary. What do they
need to do to begin to identify that ache?
Speaker 3 (31:43):
The question that we ask in the invisible ache is
not do you hurt, because we already know that, but
where does it hurt? That's question that's really where does
it hurt? So I'm not asking you to tell me
if you hurt. I already know that. So when a
man or a boy is asked by his parents or
(32:06):
his partner, where does it hurt and how does that
hurt show up, it's a very different question that opens
the door for curiosity and compassion to be curious about
the internal world. Like the person might say, I don't
(32:27):
know where it hurts. Okay, Well that's new information, not
that it doesn't hurt, but you're learning that you don't
have language for emotions, that that was taken from you.
I also know that a lot of the violence that
we're seeing with black men and black boys ultimately really
(32:49):
is it is the invisible eche that had nowhere to go.
I often say that if we could take for all
the bullets that are shot from guns, and those bullets
could be tagged with feelings of humiliation, embarrassment, not being
(33:09):
good enough, feeling like a loser. And I mean, if
we could attach those feelings and allow men again to
be whole, to have their holes, which is a holy journey.
And the other thing, Eanla, that I want to just
remind all of your listeners is that the invisible ache
(33:33):
is really about calling all people, but all black men
and boys and those who love them to the floor
of their own life. It's like an alter call. Not
where you are coming down to receive the God of
your youth or the God of your adulthood. You're coming down,
(33:54):
as Courtney just said, to reunite or to unite for
the first time, with yourself. You're coming to the floor
of your own life and to the table that maybe
you were not allowed to your own table, that someone
disenfranchised you from, and now we're talking about come come
(34:19):
back to yourself, come to your table, and come to
the floor of your own life to have your holes
h O l ees longing to be whole, whol e,
which is a holy hol y journey.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
If they don't remember nothing else, they got to remember that.
You know. A friend of mine heard the call out
for the show yesterday and he sent me a text
last night that just blew me out of the park.
He said, here's my ache. I've learned that there is
a distinction between failing and being a failing, and for
(35:01):
most of my life I have felt like a failure.
I want to know how to overcome that feeling. This
man is seventy something years old, so I went to
the book and this is what I said, because this
is what you wrote, ask for help. That's number one.
Number two, say it out loud. Thank you for saying
(35:25):
it out loud. Number three, don't assume that it can't
be healed. And don't deny that you wanted to be healed.
You wrote that. You said a denial can serve a
person's purpose. I said, but don't deny that you wanted
to be healed. I said to him, carve out in
(35:45):
authentic space for yourself with other men, with somebody you love,
so that you can talk. And then I said, get
thee to a therapist.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
But you know the other thing he did. He reached
out to a safe space, and that was you. And
to me, safety is the prerequisite of the work. If
I don't feel safe to tell someone I hurt, That's
what he was saying, I hurt. I used to think
(36:22):
I was the failure and the fact you were safe
that he could articulate that is again the beginning of
his own liberation and healing.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
I want to thank you for being here. You know,
I'm on a crusade every everybody with two eyeballs. I've
got to have this book and then we're going to
come together. I don't know how I'm going to invite
you to join the book club. Thank you, Courtney for
your authentic honesty, your transparency, and your commitment to your
(36:54):
own healing, which I think is a demonstration. Doctor Robin,
you know you were, you are and have always been
a powerful teacher in my life. At a time in
my life when you could have really condemned me, you didn't.
You gave me the space to grow. And I've never
been the same. You know what I'm talking about. I've
(37:14):
never been the same. And I thank you, I honor you,
and deep vow to both of you for just being here.
And we'll be in touch real soon. Loves love you back.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Yeah, I love you so much, and thank this honor
and and know that I grew you and I have
grown together because of each other. Yes and through each other.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Yes, Yes, Yes, thank you, thank you, love you, Bye
bye the Invisible Ache. I want to talk to women
for a moment. I want to talk to women for
a moment because one of the things that I noticed
when I put the call up last night, women, can
(37:56):
I come and get helpful my brother, and can I
come and talk about my husd and can I come
and do this? That and the other thing. And the
thing that I want to say to us, to my
sister women is yes, you can read the invisible ache,
and yes you can get some insights. But I also
(38:17):
encourage us and invite us to learn how to be
a safe space for our father's brothers, husbands, sons, nephews,
grandsons without having to control it. I think what the
Invisible Eight talks about is giving men the space to,
(38:41):
as doctor Robin said, come to the altar of their
own life. And I know for me as a mother
and when I was a wife, sometimes I was so
afraid that he wasn't going to make it that I
jumped in to break his fall, or to make it happened,
or to make it look the way I thought it
(39:02):
to look it needed to look. So, women, I want
to say to you, let's not do this. Let's be
aware of the ache, but let's give the men the
room and the space and the opportunity to build their
own inner altar, to build their strength again, to fill
(39:25):
their holes and find their own wholeness. Let them have
this holy journey, and let us as women know how
to walk with them, not on them, not over them,
and not for them. I think that as men begin
(39:45):
to identify their pain and their pain, is it more
important than our pain? Please don't hear that, because I
saw that also in the call out why women have
pain too? Women have an invisiy. Yeah, yeah, we do.
And we have had spaces and times and opportunity for
so long to address that. So let's not get into
(40:09):
the duality of comparing and competing compartition, Not competition or comparison,
but compartition, where we're competing pain and comparing pain. Let's
get in our circles and let's continue to do our
healing work, recognizing that healing circles are somewhat new for
(40:34):
many men. And let us be a support, let us
be a safe place, let us be their prayer partners
as opposed to those who think we need to control them.
The Invisible ache Black Men identifying their pain and reclaiming
(40:55):
their power. It's available both as a book or on
kind audio. I want to thank doctor Robin L. Smith
and Courtney B. Vance for joining us today. I want
you to go back, listen, take notes. Mothers, take notes, mothers,
(41:15):
take notes wives, so that you can learn how to
be with a man as he identifies his invisible ache.
Thank you for tuning in. I will see you next
time and in the meantime, stay in peace and not pieces.
(41:41):
The R Spot is a production of Shondaland Audio in
partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
I am a Yamla. I had a baby daddy relationship.
I spent time in a relationship with a married man.
I had to learn the skills and tools required to
make my relationships healthy, fulfilling and loving. Welcome to the
R Spot, a production of shondaland Audio in partnership with
iHeartRadio Ground Rising. Great day, wherever you are, and welcome
(00:40):
to our spot, the place we come to talk about relationships,
all types of relationships, but particularly the relationship that we
are having with ourself, which influences and impacts the relationships
that we have with all other people. And I am excited.
(01:01):
I'm telling you, I am excited about our conversation today
dealing with men and their relationship with themselves as it
is presented by my guest today. I've got guests today
as it is presented by my guest. In the book
The Invisible Ache, Black Men Identifying their Pain and Reclaiming
(01:26):
their Power, presented to the world by Courtney B. Vance
and doctor Robin L. Smith. You know these people, you
know them, I know them. I love them. Courtney B.
Vance we know from his work and stage and screen.
I know him as Da Carver from the Law and
Order because you know, I am a Law and Order fan.
(01:47):
I think I've seen every episode eighty six times. But
we know him and we love him, the beloved husband
of Angela Bassett, who has shared his heart and his
soul with the intention of supporting men and identifying their
pain and reclaiming their power. He is joined in that
(02:08):
effort by doctor Robin L. Smith, renowned psychologists. We've seen
her everywhere. She shares from her heart, and she is
committed to the health and the healing of people of color,
but of all people, Doctor Robin. We call her because
we love her. Welcome, mister Courtney, doctor Robin, Welcome to
(02:31):
the art spot. And I have to thank you for
the Invisible Ache. Oh my god, I can't put it down,
so thank you for being here today. Why Courtney, Why now?
Why ache? Why tell me why?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
I lost my father to suicide thirty three years ago
and the journey of that to marriage and to healing
into today. And then three years ago I lost my
god son to suicide. And I said to myself and
(03:12):
then to Miss Gilda by our publicist, I said, that's enough.
I've got to say something. I've got to do something.
And Miss Gilda and put myself and doctor the inimitable
Doctor Robin l together and it was a match made
in heaven and we we just we don't need nobody
(03:35):
in the middle of us. We just talked, and that's
what we're going to do today.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Oh my god, Doctor Robin. The way this book is
learned out how Courtney shares and then you assess and
give tools. I think that is just genius. You said
this in the book. When I met Courtney it had
been thirty three years since his father's suicide. And then
you go on to say that black men's mental health,
(04:03):
that too many of them suffer alone. Talk to me
about that suffering.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Yeah, suffering alone. And thank you again for this moment.
Ian looe with you for Courtney and I to come.
He and I are partners, and you and I have
journeyed a long time together. So it's an honor to
bring the Invisible Ache to this space. Suffering alone, suffering
in silence. You know I talk about in The Invisible
(04:31):
Ache that silence is not always golden. It can be deadly.
And so often men in general and black men specifically
have been taught, rewarded, punished for having their feelings. You know,
I went on to pay a bill recently, and Courtney
(04:54):
and I had been on the road sharing the Invisible Ache,
and this I shared this with him and the audience
that a message came up and it said, verify you
are human. Not I am not a robot. Not right,
not I am not a robot, but verify you are human.
(05:16):
And immediately I felt for all boys and men, but
particularly again Black boys and men who have been challenged
as to whether or not they are human, full and
whole humans, with all of their feelings and all of
their You know, I say that tears are our teacher,
(05:36):
but how many of our black boys and men have
been stripped and robbed and really sanctioned to silence, almost
solitary confinement. And so we are breaking that silence. We're
breaking the shame of boys and men who were told
(05:57):
to man up. And what we're saying is part of
manning up is claiming your whole humanity.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Thank you, doctor Rob, you can bring it off, so beautiful,
go ahead.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
We've got a caller who is in that exact spot
talking about defining his manhood and what it means. I
want to bring him on so that he can share
with you, and you can share with him and let's
get his ache addressed to the best of our ability.
Greetings beloved, and welcome to the R Spot. We are
(06:31):
talking today to Courtney B. Vance and doctor Robin L.
Smith about the invisible ache. Please share with us your
dilemma at this time.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
Well, it's great to be on your show. Briefly, of
what attracted me to the post that I seen yesterday
was the fact that the word invisible ache spoke so
harshly to me that I knew it was a real thing.
And I've realized that the invisible ache that we all
go through as people is the miseducation, especially as a
(07:03):
Black man. On how miseducated I was and misled to
do things a certain way in our community has led
to nothing but at one point, nothing but downfall, and
it eventually hurt that I had to basically endure and
try to, I guess, rebrand what I became by going
(07:24):
through my maturity. But I believe the more mature I
believe that I got, the more hurt I kept discovering,
and it became a whack of mole of emotions I
kept going through, Like every time I just I saw
one issue I come up with three others that I
didn't realize this is way deeper the surface level of
what I thought I went through, and it just became
(07:46):
a self not a self hatred of my community, but
just a global self awareness of that my community, especially
as men go through And that's why I believe I
go through the hurt, the emotion despite me not you
my emotions. I still have feelings on how I go
through things, but as men, we get told not to
feel it. You just have to keep pushing and keep moving.
(08:07):
And I grew up saying yes, I'm going to keep
pushing and move and keep my head up. But then
when everyone leaves the room I have to kind of
go in the corner for a while, you know.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
So, beloved man asked you a question. I heard you say,
the mis education. So that Courtney and doctor Robin can
help you, can you give us a specific so that
we can find common ground.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
A very specific. To be honest with you, is, for instance,
when it came to professionalism, I would say, uh, you know,
I was taught to, you know, be kind to your
fellow co workers. Otherwise this would happen. But the more
you give to others, the more they take or especially
in the black community, Hey be nice to your fellow
you know, black sister, and we would try to be
(08:49):
nice to them, but then we would get mistreated, you know,
because we were so nice to them, especially grow up
in the city that I'm from, or whenever it comes like,
hey being you know, be nice to your fellow black mats.
You know. When it came to family, I was also
taught to, hey, respect your elders. But when it came
to putting up a healthy bouncher, say hey, mother or auntie, uncle,
(09:11):
this isn't right, they will say, hey, don't disrespect your elders,
or they'll just exil you from the family. When all
I did was follow what you told me to do.
But I thought I did everything right, but all I
got was the wrong outcome. As growing up, I had
to be kind of conscious of what am I exactly
supposed to do because what I am taught to the
world and from the world, it's a different reaction than
(09:32):
how the world actually gave it to me.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
The ways in which people have disappointed you, you've been
and we all have been miseducated. We have been conditioned
as people, but particularly as black people, and particularly as
black boys and men. You know, when boys fall down
and hurt themselves, we tell them to get up and
stop that crying. When girls fall we pick them up,
(09:56):
we kiss their boo boo, We picked a certain color
band aid for them. And then we wonder why, as men,
a lot of their entitlement to all of their feelings
is not there. And so I want to invite you
to not get stuck. That doesn't mean you deny your pain.
(10:16):
It means that you use it as a stepping stone.
And I hear you waiting in some ways, and I've
done this, so I understand this waiting for someone else
to tell you to validate that your feelings are real.
And I'm wondering what would happen today? He and Courtney
(10:38):
can really weigh into this, what will happen today if
you decide, even if your Mama and grandmam and aunties
and the other people, if they don't see you, can
you decide today that you see you? And Courtney bevancies you,
and doctor Robin sees you, and Iyanla sees you. But
(10:59):
what is most important is can you make a decision
to no longer be invisible and have your aches and
your pains and your holes. You know, I say, we
all have holes h o l e s we are
longing to be whole w h o O l e,
which is a holy h O l y journey.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
I love as well.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Yeah that was good, right, this one fill your holes
so you can be whole and that is a holy journey.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Wow, that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Yeah did you hear? What can you choose? Have you chosen?
Will you choose to be seen today? And how does
that make you feel?
Speaker 5 (11:47):
Just to consider that if it was almost like a
burden at first. But I have to look through the
pain and I have to ignore the pain, just like
what we do when we lift weights, and I feel
once I am I'm able to do that. I'm going
to not literally, but I'm going to, you know, spiritually
parba mentally cry about it, but lift that heavy pain
(12:09):
off myself.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
You don't need to ignore your pain when we're lifting weights.
When I'm a runner and so when I'm jogging, I
can't really ignore what I'm feeling. What I can do
is give myself a new message about the pain I'm feeling.
So I want to caution you you don't need to
ignore your pain. You want to read language what your
(12:33):
pain is here to teach you what it is here,
how it's going to instruct you. And the other part
is we're longing, all of us for somebody, and Ianla
did this for hundreds of people, to fix our lives,
to fix our heart, our hearts, to fix our relationships.
And the reality is, and you know, like Prince Charming
(12:56):
isn't coming, Princess Charming isn't coming. But the person you've
been waiting for your whole life, the person I've been
waiting for my whole life. Guess what. That person has arrived.
And it's you. It's you awake, it's you committed to you,
it's you open to your own power and your own transformation.
(13:22):
And so what I'm saying to you, I did not
learn this in books. You know, if you've been following
Iyanla for years, she learned what she learned. Of course,
she's smart and she's brilliant and she's all of that,
but she's suffered and she has converted her suffering into
a platform of elevation. And so we are inviting you
(13:47):
to the same power. We're not special, there's nothing unique
about me or Courtney or Yanla. We just made a
decision to take all that stuff that hurt us and
use it for pay and for purpose and for transformation.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
We'll talk more about it when we come back. Welcome
back to the R spot. Let's pick up where we
left off. How does it happen that men become disenchanted
or they lose trust or faith in their own personal strength?
(14:28):
How does that happen?
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Well, you know, our parents were raised in a different time.
It happens in every generation. Our parents were raised in
the depression. So that's a whole different reality that they've
given to us. Some some fears and some things that
they had to deal with that you know that that
(14:51):
that that my parents didn't have to deal with. Okay,
so then, but but they were taught that way. So
my parents passed on some of their fear is to me.
So I come to be thirty years old and did
the best I could to get to where I was
with what they gave me. Now, the rest of it,
(15:13):
from thirty on, or whenever you come to that, you
hit that roadblock in your life in your mind, the
rest of it is on me. The rest of it
is on me to try to connect with other people,
you know, because you don't have to. You can go
to the rest of your life exactly where you are,
go as far as your parents there, their instructions will
(15:39):
take you. And at thirty I could have stopped and said,
I'm done. Whatever happens to me is whatever happens to me,
that's life. I could have made all the excuses and gone,
you know whatever, boo, I'm gonna be this is me,
and that would be fine. I probably wouldn't be here
right now because all I knew was what my father did,
(16:03):
and he taught me everything, so I would be like,
well he did it, It's okay to be done that way,
that's what that's like. But I said no, no, my
mother said no. First of all, my mother took me
in my sister's side and said we're going to break this.
Go find someone to talk to. Now that was foreign
(16:25):
to me that I actually could I can do that.
I mean, that's the thing you can do, to talk
to somebody, talk about what what we're going to talk about.
And so I'm growing, I'm I'm She gave me a charge.
I followed it, and but at every step there was darkness.
(16:46):
So I continually come up up against myself and I
continually we continually can go I'm done. I don't want
to do that. That's too much work. But as doctor
Robin tells tells us that suffering is work, we're so
used to being able to that. That's our reality. That
(17:06):
that's life is suffering, and life is not suffering. Life
is supposed to be abundance. But there's nobody encouraging us
toward abundance. And sometimes, as my Bible tells me, you've
got to encourage your own self. You've got to find
a way to keep going. As Jonathan you told us,
(17:27):
you got to keep going. Somebody told you to keep
that's that's what you just got to keep and you do.
You got to press until you find someone else to
help you take past the batonda to go to the
next But because ultimately I said, I got to get
myself ready for the next time as someone wonderful comes
into my life to be able to deal with them.
(17:50):
And and at a certain point, your life can't be
your grandmother's or your or your mama's life. You got
to take responsibility for your life. And what do I
want to do? What I want better? I want better,
I want more than what my grandma mede than my
mother dealt with and knows about. And that's the journey.
(18:11):
Life's journey begins, is beginning for you. And that's why
we're going around the country talking to let men and
women and people know life is not exact all that
just this where you your parents were able to bring
you to and everybody and it don't have two parents,
some people don't have parents at all. But it begins
(18:32):
with a discussion. Let's start talking about get some tools
and let's hear your pain so we can begin to
give you ideas and tools to begin to go. Okay,
let me take another step. I want to take another step,
because if you don't want to take those steps, it's done.
Can anybody make you do nothing? But we're here to
(18:54):
say it's possible.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Let me ask you this, what is it that makes
you think you don't have the strength to carry yourself
to where you need to be. Is there a particular
thought or feeling? Is it something you were taught or told?
What makes you think that you don't have the strength.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
When I get told that you ain't sugar honey iced tea,
I ask myself reassure myself that that is not true.
But what I tend to do is that I tend
to look away and turn the cheek and then slowly
turn my head to think is that possibly true? And
(19:36):
I think I started to lean into it, and instead
of becoming what I was accused of, I just was
defensive not I now know spent overspent my energy to
the point that I realized that emotional currency, that strength
is being depleted. I'm starting to overdraft now. I can't
(19:59):
wait to move gone, but knowing that I haven't moved
a single inch.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Well, you know, the victory is you're here. The victory
is that you're here, you're on the phone with us.
The victory is you took the step to call. You
didn't have to call. That lets us know that, lets
me know that you're you're ready for the next step.
You can't go any further, that's what you're saying. You've
gone as far as you can go by yourself, and
(20:26):
doctor Robin he needs some tools to go further. You
want to go, but you're emotionally spent from trying to
do it yourself, and the people that around you can't
help you because they tell you you ain't sugar honey
iced tea. But you know in your spirit you are,
(20:47):
so doctor Robin, help, let's give my man some tools.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Yeah, yeah, you know. I Courtney, thank you for reminding
us how important the tools are, and also that it's
important that we make the decision because it is a choice, Jonathan,
we can end up being. I think one of the
biggest addictions is the addiction to our suffering. And I
(21:16):
want you to be aware that you've become comfortable even
though you're hurting, You've become comfortable with your ache. And
so part of what Courtney and I am the Invisible
Ache is all about. It is becoming uncomfortable with suffering.
(21:40):
It is becoming uncomfortable with aching being how you live
your life. So one of the tools, and Courtney said this,
that the people who are not affirming you, I'm wondering,
is there anyone in your life who does affirm you?
As we've talked about maybe some of the people who don't,
(22:02):
But who's healthy in your life, who's doing their own work,
who's been to therapy, who is telling the truth about
their invisible aid, that's in your life?
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Honestly, that will be my life. She's been a great
support system, she's been a great witness to what I've
been through and unfortunately my suffering was weaponized on her
throughout the years. Is because I always would look at
her and say, you don't know what you're talking about.
You don't know what you're talking about. That family, you know, now,
I'm always going to have them until you wake up.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
So right now, so I hear it got weaponized. But
you know, you have a lot of insight. This is
what's good. Not only did you call, you have a
lot of insight. And you recognize that your wife is
your partner. She's part of the blueprint for your liberation.
Did you know that.
Speaker 4 (22:59):
I've seen that, Yes, and I wanted to recognize it
because I feel like I never gave her enough credit
because she's always working under blueprint.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
And this is I want to caution you. The past
beckons all of us to come laid down in it
and stay. And so I just want to invite you.
Courtney could be talking today not about his father's death
by suicide thirty three years ago and his godson suicide.
(23:28):
Courtney could end other things that he shares in the
invisible way. He could nurse and rehearse that trauma. So Jonathan,
I one tool. I'm going to ask you to begin
to withdraw from the addiction of nursing and rehearsing what
(23:49):
didn't go well yesterday or ten years ago. See what
we focus on grows, and what grows has dominion over us,
and what is growing in your life before today? What's
the trauma? Today? Now is a new day, and the
tools are how do you starve the lie and feed
(24:12):
the truth.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
We'll talk about that when we come back. Welcome back
to the R spot. Let's get back to the conversation.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
You have a wife who is your partner in truth
and in integrity, so you can apologize to her when
we're finished. You can say, you know what, not only
did I wake up, I'm woke, like all the way awake,
and now I'm ready to move forward, not denying the past.
But the past is over. You have the opportunity now
(24:49):
to nurse and rehearse what is genuinely true about you.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
We'll do first.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
I want you to know that you were heard, but
I want to hear what did you hear? Doctor Robins
saying you don't have to repeat her words, but I
just want to see how it lands in your body, how.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
It lends in my head? Is that to deny the
past is a form of way of that. I've always
been able to lie to myself because I always denying
it and I always lie in it at the same time.
And I think what we need to do is that
what I need to do is that I need to
focus on the future, and the future is the only
(25:32):
mouldible truth that I could still make to myself to
this day. And when it comes to what she said
earlier about repurposing my language, I think, and I think,
I know I would need to turn my anger into
motivation to do better. And I can no longer continue
to weaponize my suffering onto myself and others. That's how
(25:56):
I internalize my God.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
All I want to say, my God, Jonathan, we need
to just get up right now, because this is the beginning.
You've caught yourself, you are coaching yourself. You're ready, You're there.
And I'm not saying there's no work. Look, I'm doing
work every day of my life to be more of
(26:19):
who I am. But you have in you the spirit
of truth, and you've got the courage to lift whatever
burdens have been on you, to roll them off and
move on. I hear it, I see it. It's exciting.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
It does feel good to speak on this. Like again,
my wife has been a great outlet, but it's you know,
just you know, having three other outlets to know take
turns in a very fair and you know, prompt way.
It's been a bit of a relief as well.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
Did you ever think about going to therapy? Not long term,
but just go sit somewhere where somebody is all about that?
Speaker 4 (27:01):
Yes, my wife, we are considering couple's therapy just to
keep things good, just to know, make sure things are
still in balance. And I also have my own therapist
on my own base. I'm in a military, but I
also have my own military therapist as well. And I'm
(27:22):
looking to help try to mitigate this the situations that
I might bring out in my words and try to
you know, use those outlets along with my wife and
sources like you guys, and soon will be a new
purchase of your Invisible Age. I will try to use
as many resources as I can to try to learn
(27:42):
something new every day because I'm not living if I'm
not learning about myself. Now that's something I do. That's
a long journey. I want to continue. With my wife, no, no,
with herd hand and with myself. Even she even says
she doesn't have to be here, but as long as
she knows that I'm having some type of journey, because
I can tell that my journey is long through.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
If I could leave you with three things, it would
be this. Number one, everybody's got issues, so you haven't
done anything wrong. The other thing is you are not
the only one in the room who has this issue,
who has these challenges. The third thing is to just
(28:20):
be mindful where you're working with and living from an
outdated program. That's what doctor Robin was saying, focusing on
the hurt you are living with an outdated programs. I
want to encourage you to do your counseling, coaching therapy.
That's number one. Number two, get a copy of The
Invisible Ache and start working through it. And number three,
(28:42):
in January, come join the book club and we're going
to work through it and get it done. I hope
this has been helpful for you, Jonathan.
Speaker 4 (28:49):
This is very much as.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Thank you for calling and be sure to tune in
and listen to the art spot.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Thank you for sharing.
Speaker 4 (28:56):
You all have been an absolute pleasure. Have every rest of today, Okay,
thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
From you, Courtney, as as men begin to read this book,
because I'm gonna make sure that they get it read
anybody with two eyeballs. My favorite chapter is makes me
want to holler. But anyway, as men go through this,
what do you want them to walk away with themselves?
Speaker 2 (29:21):
The victory of themselves that they they can reclaim or
claim that the freedom of the fulfillment of being able
to stand and you know, and and you know, I'm
I'm always evolving and I do that by just breathing
and living and reading and the excitement of you know,
(29:44):
of seeing the where the world is is going and
at this and not our bishop years ago said you
got to look at you got to look at the
way when people do things psych a psychiatrists or a psychologists,
and when people disappoint your and say things that are crazy,
you just go, isn't that interesting? Because they're always there
(30:08):
are The world is going to be? Is it was
this way when you got here, This is going to
be this way when you leave it. So it's not
don't get depressed about the world. The world was was
the world we inherited. My generation inherited was Vietnam, Watergate assassinations, riots,
(30:29):
and so it's there's there's no difference. The only difference
in that world. In this world is this phone. And
the technology has shifted such that things are are happening
so fast that we've got to emotionally do what we're
doing now to recover ourselves so that this phone doesn't
wag the dog. This phone is wagging us. We've got
(30:53):
to wag the phone. This is my phone, and it's
just a phone. It doesn't control me. And so that's
the journey of just getting back ourselves, talking to each other,
getting truths as opposed to lies and misconceptions, and being
(31:13):
able to go, oh wow, I didn't know. Can I
do that? I can say that? Okay, I mean that's
the journey.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Doc, Doctor Robin, I want to I want you to
give me this specifically, how do they begin to identify
the ache? Because so many men don't even have the
emotional language, they don't have the vocabulary. What do they
need to do to begin to identify that ache?
Speaker 3 (31:43):
The question that we ask in the invisible ache is
not do you hurt, because we already know that, but
where does it hurt? That's question that's really where does
it hurt? So I'm not asking you to tell me
if you hurt. I already know that. So when a
man or a boy is asked by his parents or
(32:06):
his partner, where does it hurt and how does that
hurt show up, it's a very different question that opens
the door for curiosity and compassion to be curious about
the internal world. Like the person might say, I don't
(32:27):
know where it hurts. Okay, Well that's new information, not
that it doesn't hurt, but you're learning that you don't
have language for emotions, that that was taken from you.
I also know that a lot of the violence that
we're seeing with black men and black boys ultimately really
(32:49):
is it is the invisible eche that had nowhere to go.
I often say that if we could take for all
the bullets that are shot from guns, and those bullets
could be tagged with feelings of humiliation, embarrassment, not being
(33:09):
good enough, feeling like a loser. And I mean, if
we could attach those feelings and allow men again to
be whole, to have their holes, which is a holy journey.
And the other thing, Eanla, that I want to just
remind all of your listeners is that the invisible ache
(33:33):
is really about calling all people, but all black men
and boys and those who love them to the floor
of their own life. It's like an alter call. Not
where you are coming down to receive the God of
your youth or the God of your adulthood. You're coming down,
(33:54):
as Courtney just said, to reunite or to unite for
the first time, with yourself. You're coming to the floor
of your own life and to the table that maybe
you were not allowed to your own table, that someone
disenfranchised you from, and now we're talking about come come
(34:19):
back to yourself, come to your table, and come to
the floor of your own life to have your holes
h O l ees longing to be whole, whol e,
which is a holy hol y journey.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
If they don't remember nothing else, they got to remember that.
You know. A friend of mine heard the call out
for the show yesterday and he sent me a text
last night that just blew me out of the park.
He said, here's my ache. I've learned that there is
a distinction between failing and being a failing, and for
(35:01):
most of my life I have felt like a failure.
I want to know how to overcome that feeling. This
man is seventy something years old, so I went to
the book and this is what I said, because this
is what you wrote, ask for help. That's number one.
Number two, say it out loud. Thank you for saying
(35:25):
it out loud. Number three, don't assume that it can't
be healed. And don't deny that you wanted to be healed.
You wrote that. You said a denial can serve a
person's purpose. I said, but don't deny that you wanted
to be healed. I said to him, carve out in
(35:45):
authentic space for yourself with other men, with somebody you love,
so that you can talk. And then I said, get
thee to a therapist.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
But you know the other thing he did. He reached
out to a safe space, and that was you. And
to me, safety is the prerequisite of the work. If
I don't feel safe to tell someone I hurt, That's
what he was saying, I hurt. I used to think
(36:22):
I was the failure and the fact you were safe
that he could articulate that is again the beginning of
his own liberation and healing.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
I want to thank you for being here. You know,
I'm on a crusade every everybody with two eyeballs. I've
got to have this book and then we're going to
come together. I don't know how I'm going to invite
you to join the book club. Thank you, Courtney for
your authentic honesty, your transparency, and your commitment to your
(36:54):
own healing, which I think is a demonstration. Doctor Robin,
you know you were, you are and have always been
a powerful teacher in my life. At a time in
my life when you could have really condemned me, you didn't.
You gave me the space to grow. And I've never
been the same. You know what I'm talking about. I've
(37:14):
never been the same. And I thank you, I honor you,
and deep vow to both of you for just being here.
And we'll be in touch real soon. Loves love you back.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Yeah, I love you so much, and thank this honor
and and know that I grew you and I have
grown together because of each other. Yes and through each other.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Yes, Yes, Yes, thank you, thank you, love you, Bye
bye the Invisible Ache. I want to talk to women
for a moment. I want to talk to women for
a moment because one of the things that I noticed
when I put the call up last night, women, can
(37:56):
I come and get helpful my brother, and can I
come and talk about my husd and can I come
and do this? That and the other thing. And the
thing that I want to say to us, to my
sister women is yes, you can read the invisible ache,
and yes you can get some insights. But I also
(38:17):
encourage us and invite us to learn how to be
a safe space for our father's brothers, husbands, sons, nephews,
grandsons without having to control it. I think what the
Invisible Eight talks about is giving men the space to,
(38:41):
as doctor Robin said, come to the altar of their
own life. And I know for me as a mother
and when I was a wife, sometimes I was so
afraid that he wasn't going to make it that I
jumped in to break his fall, or to make it happened,
or to make it look the way I thought it
(39:02):
to look it needed to look. So, women, I want
to say to you, let's not do this. Let's be
aware of the ache, but let's give the men the
room and the space and the opportunity to build their
own inner altar, to build their strength again, to fill
(39:25):
their holes and find their own wholeness. Let them have
this holy journey, and let us as women know how
to walk with them, not on them, not over them,
and not for them. I think that as men begin
(39:45):
to identify their pain and their pain, is it more
important than our pain? Please don't hear that, because I
saw that also in the call out why women have
pain too? Women have an invisiy. Yeah, yeah, we do.
And we have had spaces and times and opportunity for
so long to address that. So let's not get into
(40:09):
the duality of comparing and competing compartition, Not competition or comparison,
but compartition, where we're competing pain and comparing pain. Let's
get in our circles and let's continue to do our
healing work, recognizing that healing circles are somewhat new for
(40:34):
many men. And let us be a support, let us
be a safe place, let us be their prayer partners
as opposed to those who think we need to control them.
The Invisible ache Black Men identifying their pain and reclaiming
(40:55):
their power. It's available both as a book or on
kind audio. I want to thank doctor Robin L. Smith
and Courtney B. Vance for joining us today. I want
you to go back, listen, take notes. Mothers, take notes, mothers,
(41:15):
take notes wives, so that you can learn how to
be with a man as he identifies his invisible ache.
Thank you for tuning in. I will see you next
time and in the meantime, stay in peace and not pieces.
(41:41):
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