March 16, 2023 • 25 mins
The 1989 murder case which sent Keith LaMar to prison in the first place comes into question when discrepancies in his story are discovered. But does what happened back then have any bearing on his death row case?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
A warning. This episode contains language and depictions of violence
that may be disturbing to some listeners. I wanted you
to know that I put in a foyer request for
your nineteen eighty nine case. Can I send you the
(00:21):
stuff that I got? Yeah, I'm talking to Keith Lamar
about his nineteen eighty nine case, the one he pled
guilty to involving the shooting death of his childhood friend
Kenyata Collins, the case that sent him to prison in
the first place. What kind of stuff they sent me
the police reports? This story is ever evolving, and this
(00:45):
episode is going to be unlike any of the others
so far. What you're about to hear is a raw
conversation between me and Keith. There are some witness statements
and yeah, just some stuff that I would like to
ask you about because they said things that were different
(01:06):
than what you said. Yeah, Yeah, I love I love Yeah,
because I've never really actually seen to believe it or not.
Things are about to get very real. Oh can I
lose you? No, I'm right here. I'm Leah Rothman. This
(01:36):
is the Real Killer, Episode six. This is my life.
How are you doing? I'm well? How are you? I'm
pretty good. Yeah, good good, Um, Well should we chat?
(02:03):
I'm nervous. My nervous laugh gives me away. It's been
five days since I sent Keith the police reports and
crime scene photos. In order to get the reports, I
submitted a FOIA request, which is a Freedom of Information
Act request, to the City of Cleveland's Public Records department.
When it comes in, I assume I'm going to read
(02:24):
a version of events that matches what Keith told me
in a previous episode that he shot Kenyatta Collins during
what seemed to be a robbery at the apartment where
he was dealing drugs. Remember, Keith was shot twice two
but the police report says something different. So I struggle.
I struggle with whether or not to bring it up
(02:45):
to Keith. I keep asking myself, does what happened in
nineteen eighty nine have any real bearing on what he
was accused of doing during the uprising? I mean, it
wasn't allowed in at Keith's nineteen ninety five trial because
it was a prior offense. So I waver on whether
to go there. It really comes down to an issue
(03:05):
of truthfulness. Although Keith has admitted and pled guilty to
killing Kenyatta Collins. Why would a story be different than
what was in the police reports. Not that I can
always believe what I read in police reports, because as
we all know, law enforcement gets things wrong a lot
of the time, especially when it comes to black men. Ultimately,
(03:28):
I decide I'm going to ask him about it. But
before our call, Keith emails me and brings up something
that's on the second page of the report. It looks
like a photocopy of a post it with Seth Tiger's
name on it. Seth Tiger is one of the two
prosecutors who tried Keith's case for the state. Keith wonders
if I had actually gotten the reports from Seth Tiger.
(03:51):
I addressed that right off the bat. Okay, so, first
of all, I did not get the reports that nineteen
eighty nine police reports from Stuff Tieker. Yeah, but the
fact that his name was only I mean, it's not
(04:12):
an uncustomary that they would request that information. But I
think it was that information. I mean, I've said it
all wrong that they looked at my record would use
my record as leverage to get me to cop out. Yeah,
it's it's it's it's taken by itself. It's it's dammy,
but I have a sad away for you know, when
we spoke last week, you're intimated that what you said,
(04:35):
obviously it's different from what you said back to that,
and that implies something different about you intended. But it's
not different from what I've last I've admitted some details
because it involves other people, but the admissions are not
like to deceive or to you know, mitigate what happened.
(04:59):
I I get it to murder anything that happened before
after Dan, you know, Carolyn comparison. That's what I'm saying. Yeah,
I killed somebody. I admit that. So you know, whatever
questions that you have will respect to that. I try
to answer them, and I hope you understand that I'm
not There's no sort of like gotcha. I'm not trying
(05:21):
to prove anything or I put in the foyer request
because that's just what you do as a journalist, right
you just I don't think I don't think. I'm sorry.
I don't mean to cut you off, but I don't
think you it was a got to. If that was
the case, you wouldn't to sit in the information before
you questioned me about it. So I'm not. I'm not
thinking alone those lines. I'm just trying to speaking to
(05:43):
the the vacuum, you know, try to you know, ask
some uh, some detail to what was omitted from my
you know, from and and ask you you know, give
you some kind of read some justification why I don't
talk about those things in depth, like you on in
the report that you know, the person who saw shot
(06:04):
me wasn't Jamaican. But I said that because I didn't
want to tell on that person. That makes sound strange
to some somebody again that live in your world, but
in the world I grew up, and you don't do
that even if somebody has tried to take your life.
And I'm just saying that that just gives you some
kind of indication of how steaked I was in that,
(06:25):
you know, in that in that world and so and
when I was in the same similar situation within this
Weaver I said I was asleep. I wasn't asleep. I
saw the whole thing. Remember Dennis Weaver as the man
who was murdered in that K Block cell on the
third day of the uprising. Keith is accused of calling
for Weaver's murder. But again, I didn't want to be involved,
(06:48):
because that's how you know, I've been able to stay
alive in this world that I've been living in. And
you know, it's hard for people to understand that. So
they take the fact that I said I was asleep
that the mean that I had some culpability in his death.
And if I did, I would have bed guilty. That's
what my records suggests. I'm an admitted criminal, a murderer, thief,
(07:09):
drug dealer, So you know, I you know, I was
fucked up. I was a fucked up place. There's no
way really around that there. You know, it's a debate
on or right now whether a lot jay Z was
actually a drug dealer, you know, you know, and actually
you know experience, you know some of the things that
he rap about. I don't know if you hit to
him in his music, but you know he talked a
(07:31):
lot about drugs, a lot about you know, the mentality
you got you have to have in order to be
a successful drug dealer, you know, and you know, all
that is violence. But I don't think a lot of
people fully understand, you know, what that really really is.
And then when you have my record and you put
that in front of people, horrified but I said, but
(07:52):
this is what you're wrapping too, this is what you
rathering around, you know, bopping your here too. This is it,
you know. But it's hard to kind to give people
depend to understand that. And so you know, I wasn't there.
I was I didn't take offense to uh you, you know,
making me aware of my record. You know it's my record. Yeah,
(08:13):
And again, just to be clear, it was just that
you had told me what happened and it didn't seem
to be the same. And I think what is the
more important conversation is this. I don't give two shits
about the details of what happened in eighty nine. I don't.
I just you know, I just had to ask, and
(08:34):
I wanted you to. I wanted you to be able
to read it. I wanted, I know, and I wanted
you to be able to read it. And it was
just something that I got God and I had to
ask about. It's not totally irrelevant. I mean, it's some
you know, because the implication by showing people that report
I'm talking about, if you the prosecutor, if they say, well,
look at this, that he did this, so we should
(08:55):
assume that he did this thing and so the basis
for forming that and just you know, to look at
the parallels. He killed somebody here, he killed somebody here.
But it's the nuance or the devils in the details,
as they say, I'm not interested in. And you know,
I mean, excuse my language, but they're shitting on somebody's
(09:16):
grave and y'all is dead. But he was. He wasn't
an angel, you It was things that happened prior to
you know that that that Pacific night, you know that,
you know, put him in that posture, me and him,
he and I. So he did bar his way into
the um to the apartment, and one of his friends
(09:39):
or his cousin, I can't recall who exactly who that was,
um said that he came in and said, I know
that motherfucker's in here, or something like that, something to
that degree. But you know, this this thing that happened
between that, it was ongoing thing. They robbed me. I
shotted at them a couple of times a couple of
days after that. I mean, this is all leading up
(10:00):
to the event that happened that night. It wasn't like,
you know, we were just sitting there and I just
opened fired on this with this person. You know what
I mean. You know, I don't know if you ever
had a gun pointing to your head. You know, that
happened to me several times. An environment that I lived in,
and yet I've remained in that environment. So in order
to you know, exist in that world, I had to
(10:21):
become part of that environment. So it was King YadA,
So was everybody else. Who were you know, in that apartment.
That didn't happened. We weren't. We weren't sitting around in
church at Bible stuffy. We was in a drug band
in a drug crime infested neighborhood. That's what that happened.
So context is important. It's important. Now I don't shot away,
(10:43):
and you say it's different from you know what I
told you? You know what I mean in what way?
I mean the way that it's presented in the police reports,
which again I'm just stating. When it says in the
police reports, it's says that you guys were all getting
(11:03):
high and then and Kenyada was sitting I think, like
on the edge of a sofa something sofa. You pointed
the gun out the window, shot it out the window.
They're like, what are you doing? And then the next thing,
they know, you shoot Kenyada and say this is for
raping my sister or something to that of that. So,
I mean, I'm just going off of what I read.
(11:25):
I absolutely it's only why And you know what, I
gotta say this, it really has nothing to do I
think the reason I wanted to ask you about it
has nothing to do with other what other people said.
It had to do with what you told police, right,
because it's just like what you told Yeah, what you
(11:46):
told police, which is different than what you shared with me.
That's I would high most days that environment, that life
that I was living. You had to be high. You
had to be in a different mind state in order
to even do the things that you did, because everything
that you do that you are doing is humanizing everything.
(12:08):
One of the sad things about you know, coming up
to the way that I did. You know that you
get lost and the prison that I was in is
way worse than the prison that I came to being
trapped around that. You know, that arbitrary violence, Like I said,
it's deeply credited and recognition of what I allowed myself
to become. And see that's the thing about you know,
(12:30):
this country, you know, and especially as it relates to
black people. You know, it's like, we don't get a
second chance. I mean, you know, all these things that
we're talking about right now happened when I was eighteen
years old. I'm fifty three, and you say it don't matter,
but they do matter. People who are deciding whether or
(12:51):
not they're going to support me or not they cross over.
All the stuff that I'm doing with the project, with
the music are the engagement that I'm having. Over the
last several years, Keith has launched a literacy program, cut
an album with a group of world renowned jazz musicians,
written a book, and been a guest speaker in many
high school and college classes. We're going to talk a
(13:13):
lot more about all this in a later episode. You know,
I don't have any illusions about my chances in terms
of getting my life back, but at the end of
the day, this is about more than that. For me.
You know, my whole life now is to kind of
repair or rescue my potential from that misspent youth that
(13:36):
you're reading about. That's what, you know, my life, to
make something out of my life, not so some white person,
that's the end of the day, can judge whether or
not I'm worthy. When you say I don't care about
the details, I really don't care about the details, because
I understand them. No details that you don't care about.
Other people will judge me for, but they only judge
(13:56):
a part of the record, the worst part, and that's
the part that you're stuck right there. That's all you
can ever be, according to some people, you know, But
I know, you know, you know that we are better
than our worst mistakes. I know that about us as
human being, and I can speak to those things not
from a book, but from my experience. I got bullet bones,
(14:17):
you know, I saw the pictures. You know that's my
blood in that hallway. I mean, you know, I know
we're doing a podcast. It's my life. I didn't shoot myself.
I was going to shut out, So you know, those
are the things that you know that are important too.
I'm talking about you want to have a conversation. Let's
have a conversation. I continue my conversation with Keith about
(14:52):
this nineteen eighty nine case and the police reports I
recently received and shared with him. I'm glad you brought
this because I promise you just the first time I've
ever seen this you know what I mean. And even
though you know the details are somewhat different than how
I describe, but you understand that I'm admitting certain things
because other people were involved. Nobody ever would you know
(15:15):
what was punished for shooting me? Okay, well, you know,
I put myself in a dangerous situation and something, you know,
some harm was done to me. That's my fault. So
that's why I didn't tell the police who shot me.
I put myself in that situation. That's how I feel
about that. I feel the same way about guys who
(15:37):
become informants in prison. Spitzers get killed in prison. Everybody
know that. I don't think these people who were murdered
during the riot were like, you know, had nothing to
do with them deaths. They made the citizen about who
and what they would do. Would they you know, with
themselves as well? Right? I mean, that's how I look
at it. By saying that they deserve to die, certainly
(15:59):
not admitting for killing them. What I'm saying, they're not innocent.
You had to back You became an informing an environment
where where informants get killed, and they lost their lives.
And then they offered me to becoming informed offered all
of us that opportunity, and I passed, and for that
(16:20):
I'm being punished. I've been on death road for almost
three decades. When all I had to do was take
the stand, allowing another individual or take a deal if
I would guilty. I took the deal. You know, That's
what I'm saying. Uh, you know, it's it's it's stuff.
It's complicated, you know what I mean. You know, stuff
is complicated, you know, but you know, I just don't
(16:41):
like it being represented as if we were sitting in
some kind of you know, picnic and you know, you know,
I said, or just walking into a church where people
were praying and I just open fired on these people.
Or that just walked into a grocery store where people
were shopping, that just open fired on those people. I
(17:03):
just walking to a school where people are learning and
I just open fired on from keys, I was in
the drug it set its crime with the area selling dope,
selling poison. You have one minute remaining, so context is important. Yes,
context is everything. Um, are you able to call back? Yes? Okay,
(17:31):
Keith calls right back. For the record. My original plan
was to ask Keith more specifically about how his story
differs from the police report. But the more we talk,
the more it seems irrelevant. Hello, Hi, Hi, okay, if
there is anything more you'd like to ask me about
(17:53):
what you read, you know, I mean, I don't think
I have any other questions. I've been in part of
this criminal life story of my life or form or another.
But I'm not naive. I'm not you know, some kind
of you know, bumbling aniots who kind of stumbling into
this day. I was in prison, I was in the celle,
(18:16):
I was in the ride, but I didn't have anything
to do with the ride, the planning over, the carrying
out of it, had nothing to do with the take over,
the prison, any of those things. But now here I am,
thirty years later, still trying to explain, you know, you
know what I did and didn't do, not only that
I had to ask you something to happen when I
was eighteen. It's like, God damn, talk about you know,
(18:39):
justice from the criminal justices. It's just a criminal system.
People make their own judgments and determined to you know,
their craft is to sit their own prejudices and stuff.
That's what self teething them did moving my trial, you know,
to the Irons and Ohio people have never even seen
black people and alone walked the mile in their shoes.
(19:03):
I mean, he supposed to be tried in from the jury,
your peers. I'm supposed to be able to sit in
and tell people like listen, I was selling drugs and
they understand like what that entails, and so then they
can understand like, well we can sweet how you you know,
you know he was this person if he was living
in this world. Yeah, I know about that world. Yeah,
I know, you know that's what you had to come.
So when I hear jay Z talk about this world,
(19:24):
it's nuances and what he's saying, you know, it's it's
it's certain things and his lyrics that let me know
that he was there. He was also admitted to shooting
his brothers. Brothers took some of his jury from the
brother was on drugs. Jay Z building that right now,
jay Z shot him just based on that, just based
on him shooting his brother over some jury. I know
(19:45):
he had to shut people and then shoot people in
dealing drugs. That's just par for the course. That's what
being a drug really is. No. So, but that don't
make you that, Don't that don't make you a mass murderer,
a serial killer. I'm not a crusader like I'm trying
to read the world of snitches. I didn't do that,
so you know, I just was a convenient you know,
(20:07):
uh stand in because of my record. It's my record,
you know. So if I'm executed out you know the
way I'm kind of squared into my mind. If I'm executed,
it's for king y'all. Step. That's the only way I
can really even settle it in my mind. So I've
done thirty four years, even though I've made steps great
(20:27):
steps to redeem myself. If I'm awesomely executed, that's what
it would be for in my mind. And you know,
I'm all right with that. I just want to make
(20:55):
that clear for the record, I wouldn't be talking to
you when I think you were legit. And and by that,
I don't mean that you you know, you know you
you write something to do something that's in my favor.
I'm not asking you to do that later. I think
you're doing a good job. I mean, I'm saying why
I think you're doing it. I'm like, damn, man, she
really did it, you know what I mean? I never
saw that report, you know what I mean, I never
(21:18):
saw that report. But just imagine, Yeah, this lady everywhere
what the fuck you know, I mean, all up in
my business. You know, I don't remember, do your job.
You know what I mean, do your job. I think
I admitted to murder, you know, you know looking at
those pictures, my blood in the hallway. Man, I didn't
(21:38):
sleep that night. I sleep. I remember, I remember the
door and everything going through that door. That door, you know,
you know, as a city three old man, I had
to go through that door to change my life. You
know all that, you know what I was learning. I
had to go through all that. You know, I stat
against me. Nobody's gonna give me a reward for surviving
three decades and saw to take a fine with what
(21:59):
I losing my mind. I would get a plaque for that.
People might be able to control your environment, but they
can't help to control the details of your dogs and
stop you from writing a book. But you can stop
you from living your life for you. You know that's
my message. You know what I mean? And you know
the hell was self peaker? Fuck him, fuck him. He's
(22:21):
the coward in this equation. He's the coward in this narrative,
which you did you you you no, it's neither you know,
they're you know, I'm at peace where I stand, you know,
and you know, um, I see you. You know you're
doing you know, you're doing your your you do diligence
and you know, I you know, I respect that. M
(22:42):
via um. Yeah, yeah, you're a little fighter getting there.
Well that's what I'm trying to do. Thank you. I
think we're probably gonna get cut off soon. All this
stuff is so difficult, so painful, you know. I mean
in my life and I'm talking to you know what
the verst of all strange, so you know, uh, and
(23:04):
just so a big of time I feel, you know,
actually you know close to you you know, Um, I
don't know. I take certain things for planting, so you
know my experience cannot you know, uh uh warn me
against doing that with people because I'm living in this
spectro the environment whatever. Like I said, and I say
(23:25):
it again, you know, I'm not expecting any favors. I
just I just want you to, you know, to bring
balance to the story. What I mean, you know, you
know the only way to do that is to you know, tell,
you know, tell you know what the prosecutors them did
because you know justice, justice is not life like and white.
(23:47):
As I said, you have one minute remaining every now
and then I have to step back and breathe and say,
you know all this well, Kase, you know you're one
of the best you can do. You know, it's just life.
I mean, it's still all that was just gonna be able. Way.
Oh yeah, good to talk to you. Good to talk
to you too. Okay, bye, next time. On The Real Killer,
(24:25):
this man was probably the most significant prosecution witness. He
lied through his teeth. It might not just be Keith's
case that has issues. They would hill thirty five pieces.
They ever, did you only need one new piece of
evidence to get a new child? They would hill thirty
five piece. Will anyone be held accountable? The first District
(24:49):
like Court of Appeals here in Ohio had stated the
prosecutor's conduct needs reviewed by other authorities. The Real Killer
is a production of AYR Media and iHeartRadio, hosted by
(25:10):
me Leah Rothman Executive producers Leah Rothman and Eliza Rosen
for AYR Media. Written by Leah Rothman, Executive producer Paulina Williams,
Senior Associate producer Jill Pesheznik, Coordinator George Faum. Editing and
sound design by Cameron Taggy, mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggy.
(25:34):
Audio engineering by Matt Jacobsen. Studio engineering by Anna Moolshan,
Legal counsel for AYR Media, Gianni Douglas, Executive producer for iHeartRadio,
Maya Howard
A warning. This episode contains language and depictions of violence
that may be disturbing to some listeners. I wanted you
to know that I put in a foyer request for
your nineteen eighty nine case. Can I send you the
(00:21):
stuff that I got? Yeah, I'm talking to Keith Lamar
about his nineteen eighty nine case, the one he pled
guilty to involving the shooting death of his childhood friend
Kenyata Collins, the case that sent him to prison in
the first place. What kind of stuff they sent me
the police reports? This story is ever evolving, and this
(00:45):
episode is going to be unlike any of the others
so far. What you're about to hear is a raw
conversation between me and Keith. There are some witness statements
and yeah, just some stuff that I would like to
ask you about because they said things that were different
(01:06):
than what you said. Yeah, Yeah, I love I love Yeah,
because I've never really actually seen to believe it or not.
Things are about to get very real. Oh can I
lose you? No, I'm right here. I'm Leah Rothman. This
(01:36):
is the Real Killer, Episode six. This is my life.
How are you doing? I'm well? How are you? I'm
pretty good. Yeah, good good, Um, Well should we chat?
(02:03):
I'm nervous. My nervous laugh gives me away. It's been
five days since I sent Keith the police reports and
crime scene photos. In order to get the reports, I
submitted a FOIA request, which is a Freedom of Information
Act request, to the City of Cleveland's Public Records department.
When it comes in, I assume I'm going to read
(02:24):
a version of events that matches what Keith told me
in a previous episode that he shot Kenyatta Collins during
what seemed to be a robbery at the apartment where
he was dealing drugs. Remember, Keith was shot twice two
but the police report says something different. So I struggle.
I struggle with whether or not to bring it up
(02:45):
to Keith. I keep asking myself, does what happened in
nineteen eighty nine have any real bearing on what he
was accused of doing during the uprising? I mean, it
wasn't allowed in at Keith's nineteen ninety five trial because
it was a prior offense. So I waver on whether
to go there. It really comes down to an issue
(03:05):
of truthfulness. Although Keith has admitted and pled guilty to
killing Kenyatta Collins. Why would a story be different than
what was in the police reports. Not that I can
always believe what I read in police reports, because as
we all know, law enforcement gets things wrong a lot
of the time, especially when it comes to black men. Ultimately,
(03:28):
I decide I'm going to ask him about it. But
before our call, Keith emails me and brings up something
that's on the second page of the report. It looks
like a photocopy of a post it with Seth Tiger's
name on it. Seth Tiger is one of the two
prosecutors who tried Keith's case for the state. Keith wonders
if I had actually gotten the reports from Seth Tiger.
(03:51):
I addressed that right off the bat. Okay, so, first
of all, I did not get the reports that nineteen
eighty nine police reports from Stuff Tieker. Yeah, but the
fact that his name was only I mean, it's not
(04:12):
an uncustomary that they would request that information. But I
think it was that information. I mean, I've said it
all wrong that they looked at my record would use
my record as leverage to get me to cop out. Yeah,
it's it's it's it's taken by itself. It's it's dammy,
but I have a sad away for you know, when
we spoke last week, you're intimated that what you said,
(04:35):
obviously it's different from what you said back to that,
and that implies something different about you intended. But it's
not different from what I've last I've admitted some details
because it involves other people, but the admissions are not
like to deceive or to you know, mitigate what happened.
(04:59):
I I get it to murder anything that happened before
after Dan, you know, Carolyn comparison. That's what I'm saying. Yeah,
I killed somebody. I admit that. So you know, whatever
questions that you have will respect to that. I try
to answer them, and I hope you understand that I'm
not There's no sort of like gotcha. I'm not trying
(05:21):
to prove anything or I put in the foyer request
because that's just what you do as a journalist, right
you just I don't think I don't think. I'm sorry.
I don't mean to cut you off, but I don't
think you it was a got to. If that was
the case, you wouldn't to sit in the information before
you questioned me about it. So I'm not. I'm not
thinking alone those lines. I'm just trying to speaking to
(05:43):
the the vacuum, you know, try to you know, ask
some uh, some detail to what was omitted from my
you know, from and and ask you you know, give
you some kind of read some justification why I don't
talk about those things in depth, like you on in
the report that you know, the person who saw shot
(06:04):
me wasn't Jamaican. But I said that because I didn't
want to tell on that person. That makes sound strange
to some somebody again that live in your world, but
in the world I grew up, and you don't do
that even if somebody has tried to take your life.
And I'm just saying that that just gives you some
kind of indication of how steaked I was in that,
(06:25):
you know, in that in that world and so and
when I was in the same similar situation within this
Weaver I said I was asleep. I wasn't asleep. I
saw the whole thing. Remember Dennis Weaver as the man
who was murdered in that K Block cell on the
third day of the uprising. Keith is accused of calling
for Weaver's murder. But again, I didn't want to be involved,
(06:48):
because that's how you know, I've been able to stay
alive in this world that I've been living in. And
you know, it's hard for people to understand that. So
they take the fact that I said I was asleep
that the mean that I had some culpability in his death.
And if I did, I would have bed guilty. That's
what my records suggests. I'm an admitted criminal, a murderer, thief,
(07:09):
drug dealer, So you know, I you know, I was
fucked up. I was a fucked up place. There's no
way really around that there. You know, it's a debate
on or right now whether a lot jay Z was
actually a drug dealer, you know, you know, and actually
you know experience, you know some of the things that
he rap about. I don't know if you hit to
him in his music, but you know he talked a
(07:31):
lot about drugs, a lot about you know, the mentality
you got you have to have in order to be
a successful drug dealer, you know, and you know, all
that is violence. But I don't think a lot of
people fully understand, you know, what that really really is.
And then when you have my record and you put
that in front of people, horrified but I said, but
(07:52):
this is what you're wrapping too, this is what you
rathering around, you know, bopping your here too. This is it,
you know. But it's hard to kind to give people
depend to understand that. And so you know, I wasn't there.
I was I didn't take offense to uh you, you know,
making me aware of my record. You know it's my record. Yeah,
(08:13):
And again, just to be clear, it was just that
you had told me what happened and it didn't seem
to be the same. And I think what is the
more important conversation is this. I don't give two shits
about the details of what happened in eighty nine. I don't.
I just you know, I just had to ask, and
(08:34):
I wanted you to. I wanted you to be able
to read it. I wanted, I know, and I wanted
you to be able to read it. And it was
just something that I got God and I had to
ask about. It's not totally irrelevant. I mean, it's some
you know, because the implication by showing people that report
I'm talking about, if you the prosecutor, if they say, well,
look at this, that he did this, so we should
(08:55):
assume that he did this thing and so the basis
for forming that and just you know, to look at
the parallels. He killed somebody here, he killed somebody here.
But it's the nuance or the devils in the details,
as they say, I'm not interested in. And you know,
I mean, excuse my language, but they're shitting on somebody's
(09:16):
grave and y'all is dead. But he was. He wasn't
an angel, you It was things that happened prior to
you know that that that Pacific night, you know that,
you know, put him in that posture, me and him,
he and I. So he did bar his way into
the um to the apartment, and one of his friends
(09:39):
or his cousin, I can't recall who exactly who that was,
um said that he came in and said, I know
that motherfucker's in here, or something like that, something to
that degree. But you know, this this thing that happened
between that, it was ongoing thing. They robbed me. I
shotted at them a couple of times a couple of
days after that. I mean, this is all leading up
(10:00):
to the event that happened that night. It wasn't like,
you know, we were just sitting there and I just
opened fired on this with this person. You know what
I mean. You know, I don't know if you ever
had a gun pointing to your head. You know, that
happened to me several times. An environment that I lived in,
and yet I've remained in that environment. So in order
to you know, exist in that world, I had to
(10:21):
become part of that environment. So it was King YadA,
So was everybody else. Who were you know, in that apartment.
That didn't happened. We weren't. We weren't sitting around in
church at Bible stuffy. We was in a drug band
in a drug crime infested neighborhood. That's what that happened.
So context is important. It's important. Now I don't shot away,
(10:43):
and you say it's different from you know what I
told you? You know what I mean in what way?
I mean the way that it's presented in the police reports,
which again I'm just stating. When it says in the
police reports, it's says that you guys were all getting
(11:03):
high and then and Kenyada was sitting I think, like
on the edge of a sofa something sofa. You pointed
the gun out the window, shot it out the window.
They're like, what are you doing? And then the next thing,
they know, you shoot Kenyada and say this is for
raping my sister or something to that of that. So,
I mean, I'm just going off of what I read.
(11:25):
I absolutely it's only why And you know what, I
gotta say this, it really has nothing to do I
think the reason I wanted to ask you about it
has nothing to do with other what other people said.
It had to do with what you told police, right,
because it's just like what you told Yeah, what you
(11:46):
told police, which is different than what you shared with me.
That's I would high most days that environment, that life
that I was living. You had to be high. You
had to be in a different mind state in order
to even do the things that you did, because everything
that you do that you are doing is humanizing everything.
(12:08):
One of the sad things about you know, coming up
to the way that I did. You know that you
get lost and the prison that I was in is
way worse than the prison that I came to being
trapped around that. You know, that arbitrary violence, Like I said,
it's deeply credited and recognition of what I allowed myself
to become. And see that's the thing about you know,
(12:30):
this country, you know, and especially as it relates to
black people. You know, it's like, we don't get a
second chance. I mean, you know, all these things that
we're talking about right now happened when I was eighteen
years old. I'm fifty three, and you say it don't matter,
but they do matter. People who are deciding whether or
(12:51):
not they're going to support me or not they cross over.
All the stuff that I'm doing with the project, with
the music are the engagement that I'm having. Over the
last several years, Keith has launched a literacy program, cut
an album with a group of world renowned jazz musicians,
written a book, and been a guest speaker in many
high school and college classes. We're going to talk a
(13:13):
lot more about all this in a later episode. You know,
I don't have any illusions about my chances in terms
of getting my life back, but at the end of
the day, this is about more than that. For me.
You know, my whole life now is to kind of
repair or rescue my potential from that misspent youth that
(13:36):
you're reading about. That's what, you know, my life, to
make something out of my life, not so some white person,
that's the end of the day, can judge whether or
not I'm worthy. When you say I don't care about
the details, I really don't care about the details, because
I understand them. No details that you don't care about.
Other people will judge me for, but they only judge
(13:56):
a part of the record, the worst part, and that's
the part that you're stuck right there. That's all you
can ever be, according to some people, you know, But
I know, you know, you know that we are better
than our worst mistakes. I know that about us as
human being, and I can speak to those things not
from a book, but from my experience. I got bullet bones,
(14:17):
you know, I saw the pictures. You know that's my
blood in that hallway. I mean, you know, I know
we're doing a podcast. It's my life. I didn't shoot myself.
I was going to shut out, So you know, those
are the things that you know that are important too.
I'm talking about you want to have a conversation. Let's
have a conversation. I continue my conversation with Keith about
(14:52):
this nineteen eighty nine case and the police reports I
recently received and shared with him. I'm glad you brought
this because I promise you just the first time I've
ever seen this you know what I mean. And even
though you know the details are somewhat different than how
I describe, but you understand that I'm admitting certain things
because other people were involved. Nobody ever would you know
(15:15):
what was punished for shooting me? Okay, well, you know,
I put myself in a dangerous situation and something, you know,
some harm was done to me. That's my fault. So
that's why I didn't tell the police who shot me.
I put myself in that situation. That's how I feel
about that. I feel the same way about guys who
(15:37):
become informants in prison. Spitzers get killed in prison. Everybody
know that. I don't think these people who were murdered
during the riot were like, you know, had nothing to
do with them deaths. They made the citizen about who
and what they would do. Would they you know, with
themselves as well? Right? I mean, that's how I look
at it. By saying that they deserve to die, certainly
(15:59):
not admitting for killing them. What I'm saying, they're not innocent.
You had to back You became an informing an environment
where where informants get killed, and they lost their lives.
And then they offered me to becoming informed offered all
of us that opportunity, and I passed, and for that
(16:20):
I'm being punished. I've been on death road for almost
three decades. When all I had to do was take
the stand, allowing another individual or take a deal if
I would guilty. I took the deal. You know, That's
what I'm saying. Uh, you know, it's it's it's stuff.
It's complicated, you know what I mean. You know, stuff
is complicated, you know, but you know, I just don't
(16:41):
like it being represented as if we were sitting in
some kind of you know, picnic and you know, you know,
I said, or just walking into a church where people
were praying and I just open fired on these people.
Or that just walked into a grocery store where people
were shopping, that just open fired on those people. I
(17:03):
just walking to a school where people are learning and
I just open fired on from keys, I was in
the drug it set its crime with the area selling dope,
selling poison. You have one minute remaining, so context is important. Yes,
context is everything. Um, are you able to call back? Yes? Okay,
(17:31):
Keith calls right back. For the record. My original plan
was to ask Keith more specifically about how his story
differs from the police report. But the more we talk,
the more it seems irrelevant. Hello, Hi, Hi, okay, if
there is anything more you'd like to ask me about
(17:53):
what you read, you know, I mean, I don't think
I have any other questions. I've been in part of
this criminal life story of my life or form or another.
But I'm not naive. I'm not you know, some kind
of you know, bumbling aniots who kind of stumbling into
this day. I was in prison, I was in the celle,
(18:16):
I was in the ride, but I didn't have anything
to do with the ride, the planning over, the carrying
out of it, had nothing to do with the take over,
the prison, any of those things. But now here I am,
thirty years later, still trying to explain, you know, you
know what I did and didn't do, not only that
I had to ask you something to happen when I
was eighteen. It's like, God damn, talk about you know,
(18:39):
justice from the criminal justices. It's just a criminal system.
People make their own judgments and determined to you know,
their craft is to sit their own prejudices and stuff.
That's what self teething them did moving my trial, you know,
to the Irons and Ohio people have never even seen
black people and alone walked the mile in their shoes.
(19:03):
I mean, he supposed to be tried in from the jury,
your peers. I'm supposed to be able to sit in
and tell people like listen, I was selling drugs and
they understand like what that entails, and so then they
can understand like, well we can sweet how you you know,
you know he was this person if he was living
in this world. Yeah, I know about that world. Yeah,
I know, you know that's what you had to come.
So when I hear jay Z talk about this world,
(19:24):
it's nuances and what he's saying, you know, it's it's
it's certain things and his lyrics that let me know
that he was there. He was also admitted to shooting
his brothers. Brothers took some of his jury from the
brother was on drugs. Jay Z building that right now,
jay Z shot him just based on that, just based
on him shooting his brother over some jury. I know
(19:45):
he had to shut people and then shoot people in
dealing drugs. That's just par for the course. That's what
being a drug really is. No. So, but that don't
make you that, Don't that don't make you a mass murderer,
a serial killer. I'm not a crusader like I'm trying
to read the world of snitches. I didn't do that,
so you know, I just was a convenient you know,
(20:07):
uh stand in because of my record. It's my record,
you know. So if I'm executed out you know the
way I'm kind of squared into my mind. If I'm executed,
it's for king y'all. Step. That's the only way I
can really even settle it in my mind. So I've
done thirty four years, even though I've made steps great
(20:27):
steps to redeem myself. If I'm awesomely executed, that's what
it would be for in my mind. And you know,
I'm all right with that. I just want to make
(20:55):
that clear for the record, I wouldn't be talking to
you when I think you were legit. And and by that,
I don't mean that you you know, you know you
you write something to do something that's in my favor.
I'm not asking you to do that later. I think
you're doing a good job. I mean, I'm saying why
I think you're doing it. I'm like, damn, man, she
really did it, you know what I mean? I never
saw that report, you know what I mean, I never
(21:18):
saw that report. But just imagine, Yeah, this lady everywhere
what the fuck you know, I mean, all up in
my business. You know, I don't remember, do your job.
You know what I mean, do your job. I think
I admitted to murder, you know, you know looking at
those pictures, my blood in the hallway. Man, I didn't
(21:38):
sleep that night. I sleep. I remember, I remember the
door and everything going through that door. That door, you know,
you know, as a city three old man, I had
to go through that door to change my life. You
know all that, you know what I was learning. I
had to go through all that. You know, I stat
against me. Nobody's gonna give me a reward for surviving
three decades and saw to take a fine with what
(21:59):
I losing my mind. I would get a plaque for that.
People might be able to control your environment, but they
can't help to control the details of your dogs and
stop you from writing a book. But you can stop
you from living your life for you. You know that's
my message. You know what I mean? And you know
the hell was self peaker? Fuck him, fuck him. He's
(22:21):
the coward in this equation. He's the coward in this narrative,
which you did you you you no, it's neither you know,
they're you know, I'm at peace where I stand, you know,
and you know, um, I see you. You know you're
doing you know, you're doing your your you do diligence
and you know, I you know, I respect that. M
(22:42):
via um. Yeah, yeah, you're a little fighter getting there.
Well that's what I'm trying to do. Thank you. I
think we're probably gonna get cut off soon. All this
stuff is so difficult, so painful, you know. I mean
in my life and I'm talking to you know what
the verst of all strange, so you know, uh, and
(23:04):
just so a big of time I feel, you know,
actually you know close to you you know, Um, I
don't know. I take certain things for planting, so you
know my experience cannot you know, uh uh warn me
against doing that with people because I'm living in this
spectro the environment whatever. Like I said, and I say
(23:25):
it again, you know, I'm not expecting any favors. I
just I just want you to, you know, to bring
balance to the story. What I mean, you know, you
know the only way to do that is to you know, tell,
you know, tell you know what the prosecutors them did
because you know justice, justice is not life like and white.
(23:47):
As I said, you have one minute remaining every now
and then I have to step back and breathe and say,
you know all this well, Kase, you know you're one
of the best you can do. You know, it's just life.
I mean, it's still all that was just gonna be able. Way.
Oh yeah, good to talk to you. Good to talk
to you too. Okay, bye, next time. On The Real Killer,
(24:25):
this man was probably the most significant prosecution witness. He
lied through his teeth. It might not just be Keith's
case that has issues. They would hill thirty five pieces.
They ever, did you only need one new piece of
evidence to get a new child? They would hill thirty
five piece. Will anyone be held accountable? The first District
(24:49):
like Court of Appeals here in Ohio had stated the
prosecutor's conduct needs reviewed by other authorities. The Real Killer
is a production of AYR Media and iHeartRadio, hosted by
(25:10):
me Leah Rothman Executive producers Leah Rothman and Eliza Rosen
for AYR Media. Written by Leah Rothman, Executive producer Paulina Williams,
Senior Associate producer Jill Pesheznik, Coordinator George Faum. Editing and
sound design by Cameron Taggy, mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggy.
(25:34):
Audio engineering by Matt Jacobsen. Studio engineering by Anna Moolshan,
Legal counsel for AYR Media, Gianni Douglas, Executive producer for iHeartRadio,
Maya Howard
Host
Leah Rothman
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