August 30, 2021 • 20 mins
Whether it's about US elections or COVID vaccines, misinformation continues to spread like wildfire on social media with very real and, in some cases, dire consequences. But some people are more vulnerable than others. Why? And what can be done to keep people safe? Bhaskar Chakravorti, dean of global business at The Fletcher School at Tufts University, breaks it all down.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
From the recount on Marina nine in and you're listening
to the Recount Daily Pod. Today's Monday, August thirty one.
One thing that people gone on from misinformation is that
misinformation tends to be edgy. It has an element of surprise,
It has an element of conspiracy and scandal. That was
Boscar chuck Rovorthy, Dean of Global Business at the Fletchers
(00:28):
School at Tufts University, talking about how misinformation spreads on
social media and who is most susceptible. We're going to
dig into that a little bit later on, but first
your morning headlines. We start in Louisiana, where Hurricane Ida
made landfall yesterday, making it the most intense hurricane on
record to hit the state. By Sunday afternoon, over four
(00:51):
hundred thousand people were without power. Utility companies warned that
these outages could last for weeks. President Joe Biden spoke
from FEMA quarters, promising to put the country's full weight
behind rescue and recovery efforts. He also signed an emergency
declaration for Louisiana and Mississippi in advance to ensure swift
aid for recovery. Worries that Hurricane Ida could worsen. The
(01:14):
healthcare crisis. Already besieged by coronavirus were heightened. As Dr
Fauci spoke on CNN State of the Union, We're having
a situation where, even when you're stressed to the limit
to super impose upon it what will likely be a historic,
whether environmental catastrophe is going to do nothing but make
things much much worse. With the state becoming an epicenter, infections, hospitalizations,
(01:38):
and deaths have reached their highest levels of the pandemic
just in this month. Hospitals are so strained that Governor
John Bell Edwards said evacuating them isn't possible because there's
nowhere else with capacity to take them. Next to Cobble,
where after a weekend filled with violence, the US continues
its evacuation efforts. It's down to the wire. Just one
(02:01):
day left until President Biden's withdraw a deadline. According to
Central Command, the US carried out a drone strike on
an explosive lateen vehicle. The vehicle was likely intended to
target Cobble Airport. Three children were reportedly killed in the strike.
The U s military has been conducting more targeted attacks
after Thursday's airport suicide bombing which killed a hundred and
(02:23):
seventy five, including thirteen U S soldiers. Al Jazero reports
that it's Haliban have been struggling to keep the increased
threat of isol at bay with an over reliance on
American intel and power. The biggest worry for many is
what will happen to the country once American and NATO
forces leave. Now to COVID and the rampant misinformation that's
(02:46):
led many to take an anti parasite horse drug which
is not at all effective and is in fact very dangerous.
Dr Anthony Fauci has one simple word of advice, don't
don't do it. There's no evidence whatsoever that that works
and it could potentially have toxicity. There's no clinical evidence
that indicates that this works. If you're wondering why he's
(03:09):
putting out that warning. Pharmaceuticals have seen a twenty four
fold increase and I ever met in prescriptions. To put
things in perspective, between the years of two thousand ninety,
the US average thirty d prescriptions a week for that drug.
The week of August thirteen, there were eight thousand poison
(03:29):
control centers across the country have seen a massive increasing calls.
Many include people who have bought the drug without a prescription,
including formulas meant for large animals. The CDC warrant that
those doses are highly concentrated and can result in an overdose.
Misinformation on social media has been rampant since the pandemic,
said an eighteen months ago. There have been some very
(03:51):
real and in some cases dire consequences. But some people
are more vulnerable than others. Why and what can be
done to keep people safe? I dig into that today
with my guest Boscar chucker Worthy, Deed of Global Business
at the Fletcher School at Tufts University, on today's Daily
Deep Dive. Dr chuck Worthy, thank you very much for
(04:12):
joining us. Thank you for having me right now. So,
Dr chucker Worthy, you began your focus during the presidential
election last year looking into misinformation, but you were able
to take that and extrapolate it when we're looking at
skyrocketing COVID cases and vaccine rates. What did you learn? Obviously,
we are all subject to misinformation because we are spending
(04:34):
so much time on screen. No matter who we are,
where we are, we are subject to a mix of
reliable and under lab of information. But what we did
learn was that there are significant differences in terms of
people's vulnerability to being misinformed, and that varies depending on
how old you are, how much education you've had, which
networks you're a part of, you know digitally and in
(04:56):
real life. And also you know something as simple as
do I get my information on my phone while I'm
walking from one place to another? Or am I standing
out sitting at a desk and reading it on a laptop.
So misinformation washes over us in many, many different ways
and through multiple media. You mapped out misinformation vulnerability state
by state. What did you find when you looked across
(05:16):
America when it came to COVID and vaccine, Well, what
we found was age and the lack of formal education
almost directly correlates with a higher propensity to being misinformed.
There's an additional factor that plays a big role, which
is your political leanings. If you're further to the extremements
(05:38):
of the political spectrum, you tend to be more vulnerable
to misinformation. And finally, it also depends on how you
get your information. If you rely primarily on social media,
you're likely to be more minu misinformed. Put areas of
the US are most susceptible to misinformation? And why do
you think that is? Well, the areas that we found
(05:59):
to be most susceptible are certain states like Florida, Montana,
South Dakota, Wisconsin, states like Mississippi, Tennessee, New Mexico, Oklahoma.
These were all very high in terms of vulnerability. We
also found states like Ohio and Pennsylvania a bit of
a mix. And the interesting things about these states are
that there are a combination of demographic factors and education
(06:22):
factors the player role, but there's also politics. So many
of these states, for example Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania, they are
swing states, heavily contested, and both political parties want their
favor and what their support, So there's a barrage of
misinformation that often is the front end of the political
engine that's targeted at the people in these states. We
(06:45):
know how states rank. Is there a correlation misinformation and
low vaccine rates? Yes, there is a correlation once you
control for age. There definitely is a very strong correlation
between being misinformed and also being behind in terms of
vaccination status. What makes people gloman to misinformation? Can you
(07:05):
identify the type? Can you identify who's more susceptible. Yeah.
One thing that people go onto misinformation is that misinformation
tends to be edgier. It has an element of surprise,
It has an element of conspiracy and scandal. It has
an element of making me want to share it with
others because you know, g did you hear that this
(07:26):
was a virus that was developed in a government lab somewhere,
or you know, the United States government is now rushing
through a vaccine that is not fully approved, so some
people have died. It's much more interesting to click on
that kind of content because I want to learn more,
and at the moment I've seen a little bit of it,
instantly want to share it with others because it gives
(07:48):
me almost a degree of credibility with my friends and
my connections. I'm among the first to have kind of
got this piece of breaking news, so it gives me
a dopamine rush. Data based, evidence based information, but it
tends to have a bit of a on the one hand,
this on the other hand that yes, the vaccine is effective, However,
that doesn't mean that you can't get the infection. That's
(08:11):
kind of a complicated message. It is not edgy. It
takes time to explain, it takes time to understand and
and of course misinformation comes in a variety of forms.
There's some misinformation that has a kernel of truth in it,
and so that tends to give it a sense of credibility.
And then there is misinformation which sadly also carries quite
a bit which is just absolutely crazy stuff. And I
(08:34):
shared with enough people that some percentage of them will
believe it. What can the White House do that could
make a difference in cracking down on misinformation? So in
many ways I can understand the administration being frustrated by
platowing of the vaccination rates, and no question about it,
misinformation has played a role in that slowdown. But then
to pick a fight with Facebook, it just seems counterproductive.
(08:56):
Facebook that they've removed over twenty million pieces of content
that misinformation since the start of the pandemic through this summer.
But a lot of people say they're not doing enough.
This company has tons of money and resources. But you
say they're not the villain in this. Why so I
wouldn't say that they are doing enough. They can certainly
do more, no question about it. What Facebook could have
(09:18):
done is they could have done the analysis of who
were the most influential misinformers on their own much faster
and much earlier, and then they could have gone after
that disinformation doesn't and checked every single message that those
people put out and essentially block them or to deprioritize them.
So Facebook is always behind the ball. Uh. The other
issue is that we're constantly addressing this problem on the
(09:40):
supply side. What can Facebook do? What can we do
in silencing the Florida doctor who seems to be number
one on the disinovation doesn't? Absolutely we should go after
the supply side, but we should also be thinking about
the demand side. Let's think about where the vulnerabilities are,
who are the people who are most likely to be targeted,
and then create a camp in that is more local.
(10:01):
People tend to trust people who are closer to them,
so it's not just Joe Biden a disembodied voice and
a face in the distance, or somebody sending me a
message over a Facebook post. I tend to trust a
post if it's coming to me from a friend, somebody
in my social networks. So we need to be able
to infiltrate those local but the very local nature of
how information travels and then be able to develop an
(10:24):
education and a re education campaign. And that is hard work,
and that's the kind of work that's done in election campaigns.
People win elections by going almost door to door and
then changing people's minds getting out the vote. Doing that
kind of initiative takes a lot of hard work, and
it's blood, sweat and tears, and it's shoe leather work.
We haven't done that. And I just want to clear
to folks if you're not familiar with the disinformation does Initially,
(10:46):
this group is identified in March by the nonprofit Center
for Countering Digital Hate. This organization found that twelve people
were responsible for sixty of COVID misinformation on Facebook. So
that's the group that you're referring to. I want to
ask you a little bit in this moments. So much
in the news is about Afghanistan, and I want to
ask you about the Taliban. There's a big push now
(11:06):
to shut down the Taliban on social media, on on
all sorts of platforms. Do you think that's a good
idea to just shut down organizations like that? I certainly
think there is some merriage to considering shutting down an
organization that has the terrifying history of the Taliban. However,
I think it's a bad idea to shut down deep
(11:28):
platform the Taliban right now. Why do you feel like
we should not? So here's my argument. The Taliban right
now are effectively the administration in Afghanistan. They may not
be the recognized government, but eventually they will be the administration. Now,
imagine the scenario where the Taliban, you know, whoever is
a presumptive leader. If it's Abdul Ghadi bad who's the
(11:52):
co founder of the Taliban, if he becomes the new leader,
he does not have a Facebook page because Facebook has
deep platform them. So but Er says, I don't have
a Facebook page, Well, neither does anybody else in Afghanistan.
Why should I not be able to tell my side
of the story. And some poor Afghan who is suffering
has covertly opened up their Facebook page and their broadcasting
(12:14):
video about their suffering. I'm certainly not going to allow that. Now,
what does that mean? The only way in which we
can get news out of Afghanistan from here on out
our ordinary people with their smartphones taking video of their
lives or their route to the airport, on at the
airport and everywhere else and posting that on social media.
If that is shut down, we have no more news
out of Afghanistan. And by the way, dissident groups who
(12:36):
might want to put up some kind of an opposition
to the Taliban, they get shut down because of the
same reasons in the meantime, but others Facebook page is
blocked because Facebook has done taken the easy route by
saying blocking the Taliban. However, the Taliban are operating on Facebook,
they're operating on WhatsApp, they are all over the place
because they're opening new accounts on a minute by minute basis,
(12:58):
so they are getting their message through. These are techniques
that are tried and tested by terror groups, by the
Mexican drug cartels. They have always been able to break
through the Facebook fuilter. So you end up with an
ineffective policy where the people whose voices we all need
to hear outside Afghanistan that gets crushed and the propaganda
of the Taliban will make its way through these filters.
(13:20):
If it's not Facebook, they will come through WhatsApp, which
is end to end encrypted, so Facebook can't really stop it,
or it will come through Twitter or Telegram. So I
think it's a bad policy. I do have one more
point to add to Sabrina. Now, if my recommendation would
be to let the Taliban back on Facebook, but then
Facebook has to do the hard work of monitoring the
(13:40):
content and seeing if it violates community standards, if it
violates international human rights standards, if it violates a variety
of different principles that we agree to as a global society.
And the moment it does that, it flags it, it
takes it off the platform, It deep prioritizes, that kills it,
whatever there needs to be done. But that means Facebook
has to do the hard work. And here basically, what
(14:01):
they've done is they've just said, oh, we've banned the Taliban,
We've done our job. Don't blame us for this. That's
not acceptable. Right now, Facebook has become the de facto
Here's and eyes on the ground, they become de facto
U S. Intelligence. Last twenty years has shown that the U.
S intelligence hasn't been great. We're just going to add
to that calamity by Facebook executives becoming the de facto
(14:22):
state department, which should be unacceptable. They're not elected or
they're not being appointed in that role. We've got to
see quick great, but we'll be right back with Dr
Bosker Chucko Birthday, Dean of Global Business at the Fletcher
School at Tufts University, on the Recount Daily Pot. Welcome
(14:44):
back to the Recount Daily Pot of podcasts from the
Recount and I Heart Radio. I'm joined by Dr Bosker Chuckoverirthday,
who's the Dean of Global Business at the Fletcher School
at Tufts University, and we're talking about how misinformation spreads.
So stepping back, as you look into COVID and vaccination rates,
where are you taking your research and what are you
(15:06):
looking for, especially as we head into mid terms. Well,
the research that we do is covering a wide variety
of issues, ranging from not just misinformation, but issues of trust,
how do we even use technology in different applications across
the United States and across ninety countries around the world.
Where we're taking this right now is we're trying to
(15:27):
paint a picture not only in terms of how divided
we are about the information that we receive over the Internet,
but also how divided we are in terms of just
access to the Internet. What is shocking to me is
that the United States government and it's critical agencies, which
includes the Federal Communications Commission the White House and members
(15:48):
of Congress do not have accurate data on how many
Americans are not using the Internet at speeds that would
allow the kind of video conversation that you and I
are having. In other words, they don't have access to broadband.
The FCC under the Trump administration deliberately gave an underestimate
of the number of Americans who are not connected to broadband.
(16:11):
An independent research group did a study and they found
that the number of people who are not connected to
broadband is at least twice that number. According to Microsoft,
which actually has equipment in the field, they say that
it's not twice the number, it's eight times the number
of Americans who are not using the Internet at broadband speech.
In other words, half the country is not using the
(16:32):
Internet at broadband speech, which means half the country cannot
have their children at home and be able to attend
a classroom. Half the country cannot join a zoom call
if they're working remotely. Half the country can't do an
interview because they've been laid off in their previous jobs
and they're now trying to get a new job. So
these are all now serious issues post pandemic. So where
we're spending a lot of time is trying to paint
(16:54):
a very clear picture in terms of the digital divide,
access to information, affordability of that access, and how people
are using it. And then there's one more step, which is,
as we use the Internet, whether it's on our phones
or on our computers, every time we even move our
phone from this point to that point, I'm generating this
thing called data. I'm generating a very valuable resource, enormously
(17:18):
so valuable that companies essentially give me services for free
so that I can give them data in exchange. That
data is then going to feed a whole bunch of
algorithms which will then shape tomorrow's products and services. So
if my digital access is cute, if people who are
black and brown have much lower degrees of access to
(17:39):
the Internet, then their data is not going to be
used in those algorithms. So today's discrimination against people who
are lower down in the socio economic ladder, people of
colored women rather than men who all our disadvantaged in
terms of their use of the Internet, and the submission
of data to those algorithms. Those elements of discrimination gets
magnified and multiplied and solidified into the future. Those are
(18:03):
the kinds of issues that we are studying and we're
trying to analyze and we're trying to raise awareness of them.
I want to thank you very much, Dr Chekoberthie for
joining us. Sure, thank you for having Miriam. And now
to the look ahead. Here's what else we're watching today.
In tennis, the US Open begins in Queens today, with
Serena Williams dropping out due to a torn hamstring. All
(18:24):
eyes will be on returning champion Naomi Osaka, the number
two ranked player in the world, was recently knocked out
of the Olympics after the third round. Naomi, who has
struggled with mental health, wrote on social media about being
mentally prepared for the game, saying, quote, your life is
your own, and you shouldn't value yourself on other people's standards.
I know I give my heart to everything I can,
(18:45):
and if that's not good enough for some, then my apologies.
But I can't burden myself with those expectations anymore. Fifty
four years today, the Senator proved the appointment of American
lawyer and civil rights activists They're Good Marshal to the
Supreme Ward, making him the first African American to serve.
He was most known for the case Brown versus Board
of Education, where the Supreme Court ruled that separate but
(19:09):
equal was not applicable to public education because they could
never be truly equal. We leave you with their good
Marshall talking about racism. The recent survey shows that racism
is broader and stronger than before. We're not gaining ground,
(19:30):
my friends. We might be losing. But one thing I'm
sure of. This is no time to stop. Have a
great day. This is the Recount Daily Pod podcast from
The Recount and I Heart Radio. Are thanks to Boscar,
Chuck Vothy for being on the show. And if you
like this episode, I hope you'll subscribe to the Recount
(19:53):
Daily Pod and leave a rating on the Apple podcast app.
I'm your host, Rina Nina. Some t
From the recount on Marina nine in and you're listening
to the Recount Daily Pod. Today's Monday, August thirty one.
One thing that people gone on from misinformation is that
misinformation tends to be edgy. It has an element of surprise,
It has an element of conspiracy and scandal. That was
Boscar chuck Rovorthy, Dean of Global Business at the Fletchers
(00:28):
School at Tufts University, talking about how misinformation spreads on
social media and who is most susceptible. We're going to
dig into that a little bit later on, but first
your morning headlines. We start in Louisiana, where Hurricane Ida
made landfall yesterday, making it the most intense hurricane on
record to hit the state. By Sunday afternoon, over four
(00:51):
hundred thousand people were without power. Utility companies warned that
these outages could last for weeks. President Joe Biden spoke
from FEMA quarters, promising to put the country's full weight
behind rescue and recovery efforts. He also signed an emergency
declaration for Louisiana and Mississippi in advance to ensure swift
aid for recovery. Worries that Hurricane Ida could worsen. The
(01:14):
healthcare crisis. Already besieged by coronavirus were heightened. As Dr
Fauci spoke on CNN State of the Union, We're having
a situation where, even when you're stressed to the limit
to super impose upon it what will likely be a historic,
whether environmental catastrophe is going to do nothing but make
things much much worse. With the state becoming an epicenter, infections, hospitalizations,
(01:38):
and deaths have reached their highest levels of the pandemic
just in this month. Hospitals are so strained that Governor
John Bell Edwards said evacuating them isn't possible because there's
nowhere else with capacity to take them. Next to Cobble,
where after a weekend filled with violence, the US continues
its evacuation efforts. It's down to the wire. Just one
(02:01):
day left until President Biden's withdraw a deadline. According to
Central Command, the US carried out a drone strike on
an explosive lateen vehicle. The vehicle was likely intended to
target Cobble Airport. Three children were reportedly killed in the strike.
The U s military has been conducting more targeted attacks
after Thursday's airport suicide bombing which killed a hundred and
(02:23):
seventy five, including thirteen U S soldiers. Al Jazero reports
that it's Haliban have been struggling to keep the increased
threat of isol at bay with an over reliance on
American intel and power. The biggest worry for many is
what will happen to the country once American and NATO
forces leave. Now to COVID and the rampant misinformation that's
(02:46):
led many to take an anti parasite horse drug which
is not at all effective and is in fact very dangerous.
Dr Anthony Fauci has one simple word of advice, don't
don't do it. There's no evidence whatsoever that that works
and it could potentially have toxicity. There's no clinical evidence
that indicates that this works. If you're wondering why he's
(03:09):
putting out that warning. Pharmaceuticals have seen a twenty four
fold increase and I ever met in prescriptions. To put
things in perspective, between the years of two thousand ninety,
the US average thirty d prescriptions a week for that drug.
The week of August thirteen, there were eight thousand poison
(03:29):
control centers across the country have seen a massive increasing calls.
Many include people who have bought the drug without a prescription,
including formulas meant for large animals. The CDC warrant that
those doses are highly concentrated and can result in an overdose.
Misinformation on social media has been rampant since the pandemic,
said an eighteen months ago. There have been some very
(03:51):
real and in some cases dire consequences. But some people
are more vulnerable than others. Why and what can be
done to keep people safe? I dig into that today
with my guest Boscar chucker Worthy, Deed of Global Business
at the Fletcher School at Tufts University, on today's Daily
Deep Dive. Dr chuck Worthy, thank you very much for
(04:12):
joining us. Thank you for having me right now. So,
Dr chucker Worthy, you began your focus during the presidential
election last year looking into misinformation, but you were able
to take that and extrapolate it when we're looking at
skyrocketing COVID cases and vaccine rates. What did you learn? Obviously,
we are all subject to misinformation because we are spending
(04:34):
so much time on screen. No matter who we are,
where we are, we are subject to a mix of
reliable and under lab of information. But what we did
learn was that there are significant differences in terms of
people's vulnerability to being misinformed, and that varies depending on
how old you are, how much education you've had, which
networks you're a part of, you know digitally and in
(04:56):
real life. And also you know something as simple as
do I get my information on my phone while I'm
walking from one place to another? Or am I standing
out sitting at a desk and reading it on a laptop.
So misinformation washes over us in many, many different ways
and through multiple media. You mapped out misinformation vulnerability state
by state. What did you find when you looked across
(05:16):
America when it came to COVID and vaccine, Well, what
we found was age and the lack of formal education
almost directly correlates with a higher propensity to being misinformed.
There's an additional factor that plays a big role, which
is your political leanings. If you're further to the extremements
(05:38):
of the political spectrum, you tend to be more vulnerable
to misinformation. And finally, it also depends on how you
get your information. If you rely primarily on social media,
you're likely to be more minu misinformed. Put areas of
the US are most susceptible to misinformation? And why do
you think that is? Well, the areas that we found
(05:59):
to be most susceptible are certain states like Florida, Montana,
South Dakota, Wisconsin, states like Mississippi, Tennessee, New Mexico, Oklahoma.
These were all very high in terms of vulnerability. We
also found states like Ohio and Pennsylvania a bit of
a mix. And the interesting things about these states are
that there are a combination of demographic factors and education
(06:22):
factors the player role, but there's also politics. So many
of these states, for example Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania, they are
swing states, heavily contested, and both political parties want their
favor and what their support, So there's a barrage of
misinformation that often is the front end of the political
engine that's targeted at the people in these states. We
(06:45):
know how states rank. Is there a correlation misinformation and
low vaccine rates? Yes, there is a correlation once you
control for age. There definitely is a very strong correlation
between being misinformed and also being behind in terms of
vaccination status. What makes people gloman to misinformation? Can you
(07:05):
identify the type? Can you identify who's more susceptible. Yeah.
One thing that people go onto misinformation is that misinformation
tends to be edgier. It has an element of surprise,
It has an element of conspiracy and scandal. It has
an element of making me want to share it with
others because you know, g did you hear that this
(07:26):
was a virus that was developed in a government lab somewhere,
or you know, the United States government is now rushing
through a vaccine that is not fully approved, so some
people have died. It's much more interesting to click on
that kind of content because I want to learn more,
and at the moment I've seen a little bit of it,
instantly want to share it with others because it gives
(07:48):
me almost a degree of credibility with my friends and
my connections. I'm among the first to have kind of
got this piece of breaking news, so it gives me
a dopamine rush. Data based, evidence based information, but it
tends to have a bit of a on the one hand,
this on the other hand that yes, the vaccine is effective, However,
that doesn't mean that you can't get the infection. That's
(08:11):
kind of a complicated message. It is not edgy. It
takes time to explain, it takes time to understand and
and of course misinformation comes in a variety of forms.
There's some misinformation that has a kernel of truth in it,
and so that tends to give it a sense of credibility.
And then there is misinformation which sadly also carries quite
a bit which is just absolutely crazy stuff. And I
(08:34):
shared with enough people that some percentage of them will
believe it. What can the White House do that could
make a difference in cracking down on misinformation? So in
many ways I can understand the administration being frustrated by
platowing of the vaccination rates, and no question about it,
misinformation has played a role in that slowdown. But then
to pick a fight with Facebook, it just seems counterproductive.
(08:56):
Facebook that they've removed over twenty million pieces of content
that misinformation since the start of the pandemic through this summer.
But a lot of people say they're not doing enough.
This company has tons of money and resources. But you
say they're not the villain in this. Why so I
wouldn't say that they are doing enough. They can certainly
do more, no question about it. What Facebook could have
(09:18):
done is they could have done the analysis of who
were the most influential misinformers on their own much faster
and much earlier, and then they could have gone after
that disinformation doesn't and checked every single message that those
people put out and essentially block them or to deprioritize them.
So Facebook is always behind the ball. Uh. The other
issue is that we're constantly addressing this problem on the
(09:40):
supply side. What can Facebook do? What can we do
in silencing the Florida doctor who seems to be number
one on the disinovation doesn't? Absolutely we should go after
the supply side, but we should also be thinking about
the demand side. Let's think about where the vulnerabilities are,
who are the people who are most likely to be targeted,
and then create a camp in that is more local.
(10:01):
People tend to trust people who are closer to them,
so it's not just Joe Biden a disembodied voice and
a face in the distance, or somebody sending me a
message over a Facebook post. I tend to trust a
post if it's coming to me from a friend, somebody
in my social networks. So we need to be able
to infiltrate those local but the very local nature of
how information travels and then be able to develop an
(10:24):
education and a re education campaign. And that is hard work,
and that's the kind of work that's done in election campaigns.
People win elections by going almost door to door and
then changing people's minds getting out the vote. Doing that
kind of initiative takes a lot of hard work, and
it's blood, sweat and tears, and it's shoe leather work.
We haven't done that. And I just want to clear
to folks if you're not familiar with the disinformation does Initially,
(10:46):
this group is identified in March by the nonprofit Center
for Countering Digital Hate. This organization found that twelve people
were responsible for sixty of COVID misinformation on Facebook. So
that's the group that you're referring to. I want to
ask you a little bit in this moments. So much
in the news is about Afghanistan, and I want to
ask you about the Taliban. There's a big push now
(11:06):
to shut down the Taliban on social media, on on
all sorts of platforms. Do you think that's a good
idea to just shut down organizations like that? I certainly
think there is some merriage to considering shutting down an
organization that has the terrifying history of the Taliban. However,
I think it's a bad idea to shut down deep
(11:28):
platform the Taliban right now. Why do you feel like
we should not? So here's my argument. The Taliban right
now are effectively the administration in Afghanistan. They may not
be the recognized government, but eventually they will be the administration. Now,
imagine the scenario where the Taliban, you know, whoever is
a presumptive leader. If it's Abdul Ghadi bad who's the
(11:52):
co founder of the Taliban, if he becomes the new leader,
he does not have a Facebook page because Facebook has
deep platform them. So but Er says, I don't have
a Facebook page, Well, neither does anybody else in Afghanistan.
Why should I not be able to tell my side
of the story. And some poor Afghan who is suffering
has covertly opened up their Facebook page and their broadcasting
(12:14):
video about their suffering. I'm certainly not going to allow that. Now,
what does that mean? The only way in which we
can get news out of Afghanistan from here on out
our ordinary people with their smartphones taking video of their
lives or their route to the airport, on at the
airport and everywhere else and posting that on social media.
If that is shut down, we have no more news
out of Afghanistan. And by the way, dissident groups who
(12:36):
might want to put up some kind of an opposition
to the Taliban, they get shut down because of the
same reasons in the meantime, but others Facebook page is
blocked because Facebook has done taken the easy route by
saying blocking the Taliban. However, the Taliban are operating on Facebook,
they're operating on WhatsApp, they are all over the place
because they're opening new accounts on a minute by minute basis,
(12:58):
so they are getting their message through. These are techniques
that are tried and tested by terror groups, by the
Mexican drug cartels. They have always been able to break
through the Facebook fuilter. So you end up with an
ineffective policy where the people whose voices we all need
to hear outside Afghanistan that gets crushed and the propaganda
of the Taliban will make its way through these filters.
(13:20):
If it's not Facebook, they will come through WhatsApp, which
is end to end encrypted, so Facebook can't really stop it,
or it will come through Twitter or Telegram. So I
think it's a bad policy. I do have one more
point to add to Sabrina. Now, if my recommendation would
be to let the Taliban back on Facebook, but then
Facebook has to do the hard work of monitoring the
(13:40):
content and seeing if it violates community standards, if it
violates international human rights standards, if it violates a variety
of different principles that we agree to as a global society.
And the moment it does that, it flags it, it
takes it off the platform, It deep prioritizes, that kills it,
whatever there needs to be done. But that means Facebook
has to do the hard work. And here basically, what
(14:01):
they've done is they've just said, oh, we've banned the Taliban,
We've done our job. Don't blame us for this. That's
not acceptable. Right now, Facebook has become the de facto
Here's and eyes on the ground, they become de facto
U S. Intelligence. Last twenty years has shown that the U.
S intelligence hasn't been great. We're just going to add
to that calamity by Facebook executives becoming the de facto
(14:22):
state department, which should be unacceptable. They're not elected or
they're not being appointed in that role. We've got to
see quick great, but we'll be right back with Dr
Bosker Chucko Birthday, Dean of Global Business at the Fletcher
School at Tufts University, on the Recount Daily Pot. Welcome
(14:44):
back to the Recount Daily Pot of podcasts from the
Recount and I Heart Radio. I'm joined by Dr Bosker Chuckoverirthday,
who's the Dean of Global Business at the Fletcher School
at Tufts University, and we're talking about how misinformation spreads.
So stepping back, as you look into COVID and vaccination rates,
where are you taking your research and what are you
(15:06):
looking for, especially as we head into mid terms. Well,
the research that we do is covering a wide variety
of issues, ranging from not just misinformation, but issues of trust,
how do we even use technology in different applications across
the United States and across ninety countries around the world.
Where we're taking this right now is we're trying to
(15:27):
paint a picture not only in terms of how divided
we are about the information that we receive over the Internet,
but also how divided we are in terms of just
access to the Internet. What is shocking to me is
that the United States government and it's critical agencies, which
includes the Federal Communications Commission the White House and members
(15:48):
of Congress do not have accurate data on how many
Americans are not using the Internet at speeds that would
allow the kind of video conversation that you and I
are having. In other words, they don't have access to broadband.
The FCC under the Trump administration deliberately gave an underestimate
of the number of Americans who are not connected to broadband.
(16:11):
An independent research group did a study and they found
that the number of people who are not connected to
broadband is at least twice that number. According to Microsoft,
which actually has equipment in the field, they say that
it's not twice the number, it's eight times the number
of Americans who are not using the Internet at broadband speech.
In other words, half the country is not using the
(16:32):
Internet at broadband speech, which means half the country cannot
have their children at home and be able to attend
a classroom. Half the country cannot join a zoom call
if they're working remotely. Half the country can't do an
interview because they've been laid off in their previous jobs
and they're now trying to get a new job. So
these are all now serious issues post pandemic. So where
we're spending a lot of time is trying to paint
(16:54):
a very clear picture in terms of the digital divide,
access to information, affordability of that access, and how people
are using it. And then there's one more step, which is,
as we use the Internet, whether it's on our phones
or on our computers, every time we even move our
phone from this point to that point, I'm generating this
thing called data. I'm generating a very valuable resource, enormously
(17:18):
so valuable that companies essentially give me services for free
so that I can give them data in exchange. That
data is then going to feed a whole bunch of
algorithms which will then shape tomorrow's products and services. So
if my digital access is cute, if people who are
black and brown have much lower degrees of access to
(17:39):
the Internet, then their data is not going to be
used in those algorithms. So today's discrimination against people who
are lower down in the socio economic ladder, people of
colored women rather than men who all our disadvantaged in
terms of their use of the Internet, and the submission
of data to those algorithms. Those elements of discrimination gets
magnified and multiplied and solidified into the future. Those are
(18:03):
the kinds of issues that we are studying and we're
trying to analyze and we're trying to raise awareness of them.
I want to thank you very much, Dr Chekoberthie for
joining us. Sure, thank you for having Miriam. And now
to the look ahead. Here's what else we're watching today.
In tennis, the US Open begins in Queens today, with
Serena Williams dropping out due to a torn hamstring. All
(18:24):
eyes will be on returning champion Naomi Osaka, the number
two ranked player in the world, was recently knocked out
of the Olympics after the third round. Naomi, who has
struggled with mental health, wrote on social media about being
mentally prepared for the game, saying, quote, your life is
your own, and you shouldn't value yourself on other people's standards.
I know I give my heart to everything I can,
(18:45):
and if that's not good enough for some, then my apologies.
But I can't burden myself with those expectations anymore. Fifty
four years today, the Senator proved the appointment of American
lawyer and civil rights activists They're Good Marshal to the
Supreme Ward, making him the first African American to serve.
He was most known for the case Brown versus Board
of Education, where the Supreme Court ruled that separate but
(19:09):
equal was not applicable to public education because they could
never be truly equal. We leave you with their good
Marshall talking about racism. The recent survey shows that racism
is broader and stronger than before. We're not gaining ground,
(19:30):
my friends. We might be losing. But one thing I'm
sure of. This is no time to stop. Have a
great day. This is the Recount Daily Pod podcast from
The Recount and I Heart Radio. Are thanks to Boscar,
Chuck Vothy for being on the show. And if you
like this episode, I hope you'll subscribe to the Recount
(19:53):
Daily Pod and leave a rating on the Apple podcast app.
I'm your host, Rina Nina. Some t
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