December 8, 2021 • 23 mins
Former University of North Carolina Head Baseball Coach Mike Fox is one of the most highly-regarded college baseball coaches of all-time, leading the Tar Heels to seven College World Series appearances over 22 seasons. Coach Fox joins Nick to discuss mental health, early recruiting, and competitiveness in youth sports. The two also explore their similar experiences as DIII National Champions and reminisce on their shared time at North Carolina Wesleyan, when Nick played for Coach Fox.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
You know, kids want to be promised something, they want
to be assured of something, and that's not how it works.
I mean, that's not how life works. Has done how
athletics were. Play the game hard, get on a good team, perspective, game,
draft fright, be the first one out on the field,
be the last one out of dug out. There's little
things they do matter. This is the Reformed Sports Project,
(00:28):
a podcast about restoring healthy balance and perspective in all
areas of sports through education and advocacy. All Right, this
is Nick Bonacoort from the Reformed Sports Project podcast. Joining
me today is Mike Fox, former head baseball coach for
the University of North Carolina tar Heels and the Battling
Bishops at North Carolina Wesleyan College. This is an extra
special episode for me today as I have the privilege
(00:49):
to play for Coach Fox my freshman year at North
Carolina wesley and back coach and I dig into a
host of topics all pertaining to youth and amateur sports,
things like early sports by realization, the lessons that are
learned by kids through youth sport participation, and coaches take
on mental health and how it's impacting athletics today. I'm
really tickled. I'm excited. I'm grateful to have my former
(01:11):
coach who I was blessed to play for. He's just
recently retired. He's one of the greatest of all time
and I'm just humbled to have him. University of North Carolina,
North Carolina Wesleyan head coach, Hall of Famer and coach
Mike Fox. Coach Fox, thanks so much to talk with you.
I want to start right. I know you just retired.
You are getting pulled in a million directions. What we're
talking about is youth sports and athletic development. And what
(01:33):
I want to ask is, I know that you've seen
a lot of change through your career, but one thing
that hasn't changed. And I've interviewed a ton of coaches
in all different sports. The culture has changed, but doesn't
seem the demand has changed. And that's the whole multiple
sports for specialization thing. You know, kids at seven, six,
eight years old, you know the minute they swing the
bat go to they swim fast. It's like, let's stop
everything else, let's go year round. And there's the whole
(01:54):
ten thousand hour thing. The quicker we could be good
at something, the better odds are to get a scholarship,
all these things. But every college coach I talked to
says they like kids that play multiple sports, particularly young ages.
So when it comes to kids specialize in early versus
playing multiple sports, what are your thoughts on that. Well,
I'm on the record as far as what I think,
and that is, like most of the coaches use your referencing,
(02:15):
is that these kids do not need to specialize. They
need to be well rounded. I mean, we all know
that repetition and anything over and over and over again,
no matter what it is. But certainly in sports is
is not a good thing. And you're right. I think
when they see a young man who's talented at one thing,
they immediately want to cut off everything else, and that's dangerous.
(02:37):
These kids need to play other sports. They need to
play year round. They need to stop one play another one,
use different body parts, use different skill sets. That is
going to help them in the long run. I believe
it's going to keep them healthier in the long run,
perhaps prevent these injuries that are occurring so young. Um,
just all sorts of benefits, different coaches, different aspects, different mats,
(03:00):
just so much value in it. One thing that often
comes up is the idea of competition. How important is
the willingness to compete and I mean compete to win?
Because there's so many baseball games being played at times,
it almost seems like people are just kind of going
through the motions. Is that something you look for when
you're recruiting, like competitive drive, the will to compete, no doubt,
I mean that's uh, that might be the biggest factor
(03:21):
besides you know, character, um, which obviously has a lot
to do with their decision making and those intangibles. But
you know, I saw it more than more, you know,
towards the end of my career that you know, kids
want to be promised something, they want to be assured
of something, and that's not how it works. I mean,
that's not how life works. That's not how athletics work.
And um, we call many and many a kid. If
(03:42):
you are worried about who else is here, if you're
worried about how many pictures shortstop second basement center fillers
we have here, then this might not be the place
for you. And I'm sure I'm not the only coach
making those statements, because we all want kids that come
in and want to compete. I mean, competition drives everything.
It may makes them better, it makes you better, makes
your program better, it makes everything better. And it's a powerful,
(04:05):
powerful motivator because competition is about playing time. And we
all know what a big motivator that is. So you're right.
I mean, you can only do so much, you know,
in a in a cage and in a weight room.
But you gotta get out. You gotta get out on
the field. You gotta get out on multiple fields. That's
what kids should be doing more of. In my opinion.
We used to call him when I played. We call
them cage rats. Are like a five o'clock hitter. I
(04:27):
don't know if he's still called that or what, Like
a BP player, you know, a great practice player. And
I hear this a lot too, you know, they talk
about over recruiting, and I'm thinking to myself, like, you know,
or coach said I had a spot. I'm like when
Coach Long came and saw me play, you know at Weston.
Now we're talking D three, right, you know. And then
I got a call from you, and I swear to
I tell this story of the time coach you called me,
and I don't think I understood one word you said,
(04:48):
because I was so used to listening to Yankee. My
dad's what he says. I don't know, but I think
he likes me. I have no idea. Well when I'm
to find out, but anyway, Yeah, so Coach Long told me,
and I think you told me on my trip, like
we have you know, we have Jeremy Stewart Forbes had
just graduated. Jeremy Stuart can catch We love to play
(05:09):
him somewhere else. But there's a few other guys coming in.
So I knew that there was a chance I was
gonna make the team, but I had a chance to
potentially compete to play, and I think from what I gathered,
that's kind of the way it is now. But it
almost seems like what is up with all these kids leaving?
They transfer like all of a sudden, someone else is there.
They leave, like what's wrong with weight in your turn
as a freshman. I don't understand it. Well, I mean,
(05:30):
I think it's the mentality that you're you know, that
you're seeing um, you know, all throughout their youth playing days,
which is what you're trying to expose, if you will,
What you're trying to show with this you know, year
round play and being coddled and being get on the
same team and playing every day and you know, not
used to sitting on the bench and watching. So it's
(05:51):
really it's hard. It's hard for these kids, you know,
to not play, and it's even harder for them to
look in the mirror and ask themselves why am I
not playing? And so the grasses, you know, maybe greener
or they're gonna have a better opportunity. What they don't
understand is the next school they're going to, they're gonna
be in the exact same situation. Because every coach that
(06:13):
I've ever met or dealt with is going to put
the best players on the field, no matter what, no
matter how they recruited. When they were recruited, scholarship, non scholarship.
The last two first round picks of the University of
North Carolina were non scholarship players for US, So that's
that's not a factor. But you're right, it's a national
(06:34):
phenomenon right now. The transfer portal, I don't I can't
even go on, and I don't want to go on,
and it's depressing all of us as coaches. And it's
easy for us to say, right, but we want these
kids to compete, work hard, and the ones that normally
do that to stay in your program, that get to
their junior year and get on the field the last
couple of years after maybe not playing as much the
(06:56):
first couple of years. Man, those kids end up being
your best players. They're your best leaders. They got the
best work out, they got the best attitude, and that
just lifts your whole program. The more of those kids
you can have in your program and on the field
as juniors and seniors, I think, the better chance you
have of having a really good club. I go on
(07:17):
the record of saying this, and I'm gonna say it again.
I am D three biased, right, I'm no question about it.
I'm biased because I played there, And I think that
when I say biased, I mean like I can't stand
when I hear D one or bust. Like if you
don't go to a D one, I'm gonna just say
this word to you, then just suck. That's what people think,
like anything less than that. I interviewed coach Gilmore and
this is the clip I got viewed more than any
(07:38):
other on Twitter, and he said, he goes Nick. You
know he's a D two guy at usc A can
for years. He's like, I had D two teams that
would beat us, So no, I don't want to play him.
You know, certain teams and there's juicos that have as
much talent as we do. And I know our Wesleyan
teams were good. Now depth wise, I get it, but
there's something to be said about showing up at wesley
knowing that we were gonna win every single day and
(07:58):
winning and competing for a national championships. Like what's the
D three D one experience? You talk a little bit
about the difference, Like you won the ninety nine national
title at North Carolina Wesleyan. Was that any less of
a thrilled than going to Omaha? Like? What's the difference?
Is there? One? Oh? There's I mean no, there was.
There was no less of a thrill, not even close.
(08:19):
You know. I tell every group of campers that came
through North Carolina every summer all twenty two years that
you know, there's not all of you can play at
this level. And I'm a former Division three coach, etcetera, etcetera.
Kind of use my platform and I'm like, hey, Division
three is not a synonym for third rate. I'm telling
you I coached some players. There's some teams there that
were sensational. I remember one year before the rules came in,
(08:42):
we played eleven Division one teams and one year and
went eight and three. So you know, I don't I
don't like that term either, and I hear that some
as well, and I try to downplay that when I
talked to all these kids and their parents and the
campers that I don't know where you're gonna fit right now.
You're young. There's a lot of great pro burns out
there at the Division three level, the Division two level
(09:03):
junior college. You got to find the right fit for you.
You know, certainly, where you can get on the field,
you can play, you can be happy to get a
good degree. So I'm on Division three bias, uh as well,
for sure. I mean that's where I cut my teeth
and that's where I had so much, so much fun.
Obviously it was a little simpler back then, but I
(09:23):
long for those days at times. You know, kids that
just played for the love of the game and there's
you know, no scholarships and um sometimes a little less
he goes at time, and yeah, it's it's it's fun.
I mean, baseball is baseball, I mean winning and having
fun and developing. And you know you've got teammates for
life from North Carolina Westley and I'm I'm quite sure
(09:44):
I have friends for life there. So the model line,
it's all about relationships. Wherever you develop those that play
whatever level that is, it can be great. That's Mike Fox,
former had baseball coach for the tar Heels at the
University of North Carolina as well as the Battling Ships
from North Carolina Wesleyan College. When we return, Coach Fox
and I are going to talk about life lessons that
(10:05):
I actually learned playing for him and advice for kids
who want to play sports in college. Welcome back to
the Reform Sports Project podcast. Where Coach Fox and I
left off. We were about to discuss lessons learned on
the field, early ranking and recruiting, and his advice for
(10:26):
those looking to play sports in college. Coach, this is
not scripted, and you just like, I feel like I'm
putting him on a t for you. You like segue
that perfect you brought up relationship. That's what I wanted
to get into. And I'm gonna tell two quick stories
and then I'm gonna let you roll with it. I
learned one of the greatest life lessons from you ever,
and that is that to be a great leader everyone.
And I learned this when I was a manager in
office in New York and in my pressional career. Everyone's
(10:48):
got to be treated differently. And you taught me that
my freshman year playing for you. I remember I was
very insecure, very very unsure. I felt small, I felt little.
I just I was nervous, nervous, little freshman. And you
kept telling me, like, you're a good player. Do you
know how good you are? But then i'd I'd watch
Tim Wright from ever tim he get out of the cage,
and you wouldn't be afraid to kind of get on him,
and he would get mad and react in a good way,
(11:10):
like it motivated him. But if you did that to me,
I mean I might have fallen over. I was so
nervous at that time. So you would always talk to
me differently, and I'll never forget you put your arm
around me one time and you probably don't remember, but
do you know how good you are? Like when are
you gonna chill out a little bit? And then one
time where at work study And then I probably don't
want me to say this on the RM, I'm gonna say,
I don't care you're retired. No, I don't care. I'm
gonna say it. Um, I didn't like working hard at work,
(11:33):
study whatever. I'm still nervous around you. I'm nervous talking
to you now because I respect you so much. But
you said, Nick, you're gonna work hard to that. I said,
shut coach, can I put it dip in while I'm
doing this? And you looked at me like number one,
I can't believe you just asked me and you said sure,
you got something for me. And I was like, oh
my god. And that those two stories I talk about,
they made me think you were human, if that makes
(11:53):
any sense. Like it it like broke down this wall
of nervousness that I had. Was that intentional? Is that something?
How did you? How did you know you got to
treat people differently? Like? Is that something you learned along
the way and use throughout your life or what? Well?
You do have to learn as you as you go.
I mean, fortunately for you, I had a few classes
before you. Uh, you know that I had to I
(12:16):
had to learn and sometimes you have to learn, you know,
the hard way. Um, I think it's the biggest challenge
of coaching, UM these days. And because you're you're you're
limited with tom you know, the rosters are bigger. Uh,
you don't spend as much time, let's say, with the
pictures if you're the head coach or you know, the hitters,
if you're the pissing coach. And it's something you really
(12:36):
have to work. You have to work hard at it.
And uh, because every every kid, every every player is different,
different backgrounds, you have to find out as fast as can,
like what what makes them tick and what buttons to push?
And um, your window of getting the best out of
them is is short. And you can't take a year
(12:59):
and just let them just sort of flounder or he's
missed out on an opportunity, you know, on an opportunity.
And UM, yeah, I mean that's why every every freshman
that comes into our program, you know, in the summer,
I spend I don't know, probably an hour and a
half to two hours talking to each one of them individually,
and we don't talk at all about baseball. I'll give
you an example, like, uh, you know who's uh, who's
(13:21):
your role model? Um, you know, hobbies, what are your
three worst habits. Um, questions like that that, I get that,
and I take a lot of notes, so I get
to pull out of these young kids, you know a
little bit more than I would otherwise. So right out
of the gate, it gives me an opportunity to try
to know them as people. I'll figure them out on
the field being around him enough. But um, I think
(13:43):
the key, the key is to learn them, you know,
who they are as people and family and background, and
because you know you're gonna have those challenges with him
at times and you're gonna have to just talk to
him as you know, as kids at some point without
the baseball and because they're gonna struggle in all areas
of their life potentially well meant health is a big
topic that's coming up a lot. You know, back in
(14:03):
thirty forty years ago, I'm sure twenty five years ago, Gali,
it was like, you know, if you're not tough, like,
let's go, let's go pick it up a little bit here. Well,
you know, as more and more comes out where you know,
there's athletes that are speaking. I can just think of
Ben Gordon, you know, Michael Phelps. These guys are talking
about how you know, these things that under so much pressure, stress,
you know, and you can trace a lot of that
back to that early specializing, like that early intensity at
(14:25):
those young ages. Some of those extreme athletes, Olympians and
so on, they don't really experience much of a childhood,
so there's like trauma and stuff. Is that something that
you had to kind of learn as you go? I mean,
because it's kind of a new thing. Is that something
you were conscious about like keeping in mind that you know,
the kids mental well being along the way. Yeah, it's um,
I mean, it is a it is a it's a
great topic down It's one I've had to learn and research,
(14:47):
and you know, obviously there's a big difference. I think
the one thing that's frustrated me over the past a
few years. As you'll hear people talk about mental health,
they'll astly say the word mental illness, and there's a
vast um distinction you know between the two. Um. I
know from personal experience with one of my children who
(15:08):
suffers from a mental illness, that's that's quite different than
mental health. When we talk about mental health with athletes,
we're talking about um, you know, anxiety. We're talking about
maybe maybe bits of depression, sadness, not the clinical type
of depression that can be associated with mental illness, um,
(15:28):
but those type of things with kids having you know,
too much expectations on them, losing their drive, losing their fun,
not wanting to do their sport anymore because there there's
too many people wanting them to do this and that,
and it does become a mental thing much more than
a physical one. And unfortunately, Carolina, you have these resources
(15:49):
with sports psychologists and not spending an ord amount of
time with Juan Jenny Shannon at U n C, who
is just outstanding. She helped me greatly with several of
my players. I would go talk to her and say, Okay,
tell me, how can I how can I meet this
kid where you know basically where his needs are and um,
(16:09):
so you know they have to be careful what they
can divulge to you, of course, but yeah, it is
extremely important now and there's more and more kids that are,
unfortunately in that category where their brain, if you will,
just kind of gets in the way of just their
joy and their talent and just being able to go
out and play the game and have fun like like
I feel like I did as a as a kid.
(16:29):
You know, in the backyard, and there were no expectations.
And these kids that are told they're gonna be first
round draft picks and they're gonna make all this money,
you know, when they're when they're fourteen, fifteen, sixteen years old.
It's just a cringe when I you know, when I
hear that with kids, because it's extremely unfair to them.
I think this is my own opinion based off all
these conversations that I've had, and I really believe a
(16:53):
lot of the issues you can trace back to these
young rankings, I mean rank individual rankings that like who's
the elite elite of the elite eight year old, nine
year old, ten year old level? Like what is God named?
Like what? Like I just think it's crazy, But it's
a chase to me. I almost look at like it's
like an addiction for parents, like their wallets just come out,
but they justified or people, Well, kids are getting offered
(17:13):
when they're thirteen fourteen, and I sit there and I go,
who's getting offered like the Lebron James kid, Like there's
not that many, Like you gotta be a stud to
do that, Am I wrong? Like how does that change
who's in charge of that because quote, I'm gonna just
say this, you might get mad at me and hang up.
I don't care, but don't hang up, please don't. But
parents will say to me, college coaches preach multiple sports
and all us, but then they offer fourteen year old.
(17:34):
They talk out of both sides of their mouth. What
are your thoughts on that whole young age thing and
how do you think it can be fixed? Well, that's
a you know, that's a topic for about a two hours. Sure, no,
I get it discussion. I mean just uh yeah. The
earlier recruiting is um surly something and I'm not gonna
not gonna miss um. And I saw it throughout my career.
(17:55):
I mean I remember making home visits with you know,
Rest Adams for example, you know, early in my time
at you and see you know, going to his house
and you know, be in a first round pick and
playing you know, for Toronto and he didn't commit untol
you know, his senior year. And you know, honestly, you're
almost forced. You're you're forced to offer kids, um, so
to speak, because you either with some of them, either
(18:17):
you get in the boat if you will, or you know,
or you get left. Now you know, is that a
particular reason to offer, you know, man, not particularly, but
there are other factors that are you know, that are involved. Um,
maybe he's been to your camp. Maybe he tells you
I want to come to North Carolina. But I've got
offers from this school, this school, this school, and you
(18:38):
you're either gonna wait or you're not. I mean, it
is completely, absolutely, utterly, completely out of control. And you
you just said the question that everyone would like to
have an answer to is how do you get it
back under control? Well, I'm not sure you do at
this point. The one way coaches I've mentioned is as
soon as you get a verbal commitment, you sign them
(19:00):
in right then to a national let of intent and
an athletic scholarship agreement which binds the two parties together.
That might slow it down cancelation the season. The pandemic
briefly slowed down recruiting, and then all of a sudden
and went right back to warp speed. And now it's
even worse because kids are committing now to schools and
they've never met the coach face to face, never been
(19:21):
in the stadium, never met the academic councilor and that
takes all the relationship out of recruiting, and I desperately
held on or tried to hold on to that relationship
part of recruiting UM, but it almost nearly became impossible.
And with early recruiting and early commitments comes to all
(19:41):
sorts of issues going forward down the road. As we know,
that's why you're seeing the commits, that's why you're seeing transfers.
That's where you're seeing, UM, the fallout of kids committing
with their in the ninth grade. And yes, still we
look like we're talking out of both sides of our mouth.
I'm sure I do, but honestly, I don't really care
anymore because I'm retired. But it's not right and it's
(20:05):
bothered me ever since we started having to do it. UM.
The younger coaches are much more equipped, I think, to
do it because they sort of grew up in it. UM.
I spoke to Halbert, the former coach at Auburn yesterday
and I've known each other for a long time, and
we talked for about an hour. He's been out of
the game a while, and guess what topic came up,
(20:26):
you know, earlier recruiting. And he had the same thoughts,
you know, as as I did about it, So tell
me this coach. A lot of parents want to hear this.
Parents and kids they want to hear what do they
gotta do to become college athletes? Like when you were
in the game, which was like three weeks ago. What
what what are you looking for? Yeah? What are you
looking for? What should they be focused on? You know,
ninth tenth graders they want to play. They're not getting
(20:48):
offers at fourteen. These are these are kids like myself
or whatever? What are these kids? What should they focus on?
Their parents? Play the game, are get on a good
team perspective, game draft right, be the first one out
on the field, be the last one out of the dugout.
If you go play a travel game at UNC, n C,
staateis Carolina, pick up the cups and the dugout. Those
(21:08):
little things they do matter. And there's still coaches out there.
I think a lot of them were still paying attention
to those things. Your talents are gonna take you where
it takes you, um and if it's good enough, it
jumps off the field. At Division one coaches, at Division
two coaches, they we see that talents The easy part
for us to see. It's all the other intangibles, and
(21:29):
I cringe when I see these kids. I mean I've
seen I've seen coaches, travel team coaches on the field
at UNC and shower shoes with no hat. I don't
think they have any respect for not only the game,
but for being on our field or anyone's field. And
I wouldn't recruit them because I would have to completely
retrain them. If you will just respect the game, play hard, um,
(21:51):
you know, run out of the box hard. Just just
do those little things and then you'll be noticed. I mean,
somebody will pay attention to you, and then your talent
will go from there. And obviously these decisions that you're
making off the field are extremely important. Or you say
your language, everybody's listening. There's always somebody watching you, somebody
listening to you. So try to keep those things in
(22:13):
mind wherever you go. Coach Fox, I'm so grateful for
your time. You're the man. I'm just so privileged and
honored that you willing to spend your time and may
love you and I'm grateful for you. Thank you, Nick Man.
It's always good to talk with you, um ad By
and respect you for for what you're doing, this passion
that you have. There's changes that need to be made
in you sports, and UH, the only way to make
(22:35):
changes with someone like you who just takes the bull
by the horn and start a movement. You started a
great one. That's Mike Fox, former head baseball coach for
the tar Heels at the University of North Carolina as
well as the Battling Bishops from North Carolina Wesleyan College.
Thanks for listening to the Reformed Sports Project podcast. I'm
Nick Boncourt and our goal is to restore a healthy
balance and perspective in all areas of sports through education
(22:58):
and advocacy. For updates, please follow us on Facebook, Twitter,
and Instagram, or check out our website by searching for
the Reform Sports Project. H
You know, kids want to be promised something, they want
to be assured of something, and that's not how it works.
I mean, that's not how life works. Has done how
athletics were. Play the game hard, get on a good team, perspective, game,
draft fright, be the first one out on the field,
be the last one out of dug out. There's little
things they do matter. This is the Reformed Sports Project,
(00:28):
a podcast about restoring healthy balance and perspective in all
areas of sports through education and advocacy. All Right, this
is Nick Bonacoort from the Reformed Sports Project podcast. Joining
me today is Mike Fox, former head baseball coach for
the University of North Carolina tar Heels and the Battling
Bishops at North Carolina Wesleyan College. This is an extra
special episode for me today as I have the privilege
(00:49):
to play for Coach Fox my freshman year at North
Carolina wesley and back coach and I dig into a
host of topics all pertaining to youth and amateur sports,
things like early sports by realization, the lessons that are
learned by kids through youth sport participation, and coaches take
on mental health and how it's impacting athletics today. I'm
really tickled. I'm excited. I'm grateful to have my former
(01:11):
coach who I was blessed to play for. He's just
recently retired. He's one of the greatest of all time
and I'm just humbled to have him. University of North Carolina,
North Carolina Wesleyan head coach, Hall of Famer and coach
Mike Fox. Coach Fox, thanks so much to talk with you.
I want to start right. I know you just retired.
You are getting pulled in a million directions. What we're
talking about is youth sports and athletic development. And what
(01:33):
I want to ask is, I know that you've seen
a lot of change through your career, but one thing
that hasn't changed. And I've interviewed a ton of coaches
in all different sports. The culture has changed, but doesn't
seem the demand has changed. And that's the whole multiple
sports for specialization thing. You know, kids at seven, six,
eight years old, you know the minute they swing the
bat go to they swim fast. It's like, let's stop
everything else, let's go year round. And there's the whole
(01:54):
ten thousand hour thing. The quicker we could be good
at something, the better odds are to get a scholarship,
all these things. But every college coach I talked to
says they like kids that play multiple sports, particularly young ages.
So when it comes to kids specialize in early versus
playing multiple sports, what are your thoughts on that. Well,
I'm on the record as far as what I think,
and that is, like most of the coaches use your referencing,
(02:15):
is that these kids do not need to specialize. They
need to be well rounded. I mean, we all know
that repetition and anything over and over and over again,
no matter what it is. But certainly in sports is
is not a good thing. And you're right. I think
when they see a young man who's talented at one thing,
they immediately want to cut off everything else, and that's dangerous.
(02:37):
These kids need to play other sports. They need to
play year round. They need to stop one play another one,
use different body parts, use different skill sets. That is
going to help them in the long run. I believe
it's going to keep them healthier in the long run,
perhaps prevent these injuries that are occurring so young. Um,
just all sorts of benefits, different coaches, different aspects, different mats,
(03:00):
just so much value in it. One thing that often
comes up is the idea of competition. How important is
the willingness to compete and I mean compete to win?
Because there's so many baseball games being played at times,
it almost seems like people are just kind of going
through the motions. Is that something you look for when
you're recruiting, like competitive drive, the will to compete, no doubt,
I mean that's uh, that might be the biggest factor
(03:21):
besides you know, character, um, which obviously has a lot
to do with their decision making and those intangibles. But
you know, I saw it more than more, you know,
towards the end of my career that you know, kids
want to be promised something, they want to be assured
of something, and that's not how it works. I mean,
that's not how life works. That's not how athletics work.
And um, we call many and many a kid. If
(03:42):
you are worried about who else is here, if you're
worried about how many pictures shortstop second basement center fillers
we have here, then this might not be the place
for you. And I'm sure I'm not the only coach
making those statements, because we all want kids that come
in and want to compete. I mean, competition drives everything.
It may makes them better, it makes you better, makes
your program better, it makes everything better. And it's a powerful,
(04:05):
powerful motivator because competition is about playing time. And we
all know what a big motivator that is. So you're right.
I mean, you can only do so much, you know,
in a in a cage and in a weight room.
But you gotta get out. You gotta get out on
the field. You gotta get out on multiple fields. That's
what kids should be doing more of. In my opinion.
We used to call him when I played. We call
them cage rats. Are like a five o'clock hitter. I
(04:27):
don't know if he's still called that or what, Like
a BP player, you know, a great practice player. And
I hear this a lot too, you know, they talk
about over recruiting, and I'm thinking to myself, like, you know,
or coach said I had a spot. I'm like when
Coach Long came and saw me play, you know at Weston.
Now we're talking D three, right, you know. And then
I got a call from you, and I swear to
I tell this story of the time coach you called me,
and I don't think I understood one word you said,
(04:48):
because I was so used to listening to Yankee. My
dad's what he says. I don't know, but I think
he likes me. I have no idea. Well when I'm
to find out, but anyway, Yeah, so Coach Long told me,
and I think you told me on my trip, like
we have you know, we have Jeremy Stewart Forbes had
just graduated. Jeremy Stuart can catch We love to play
(05:09):
him somewhere else. But there's a few other guys coming in.
So I knew that there was a chance I was
gonna make the team, but I had a chance to
potentially compete to play, and I think from what I gathered,
that's kind of the way it is now. But it
almost seems like what is up with all these kids leaving?
They transfer like all of a sudden, someone else is there.
They leave, like what's wrong with weight in your turn
as a freshman. I don't understand it. Well, I mean,
(05:30):
I think it's the mentality that you're you know, that
you're seeing um, you know, all throughout their youth playing days,
which is what you're trying to expose, if you will,
What you're trying to show with this you know, year
round play and being coddled and being get on the
same team and playing every day and you know, not
used to sitting on the bench and watching. So it's
(05:51):
really it's hard. It's hard for these kids, you know,
to not play, and it's even harder for them to
look in the mirror and ask themselves why am I
not playing? And so the grasses, you know, maybe greener
or they're gonna have a better opportunity. What they don't
understand is the next school they're going to, they're gonna
be in the exact same situation. Because every coach that
(06:13):
I've ever met or dealt with is going to put
the best players on the field, no matter what, no
matter how they recruited. When they were recruited, scholarship, non scholarship.
The last two first round picks of the University of
North Carolina were non scholarship players for US, So that's
that's not a factor. But you're right, it's a national
(06:34):
phenomenon right now. The transfer portal, I don't I can't
even go on, and I don't want to go on,
and it's depressing all of us as coaches. And it's
easy for us to say, right, but we want these
kids to compete, work hard, and the ones that normally
do that to stay in your program, that get to
their junior year and get on the field the last
couple of years after maybe not playing as much the
(06:56):
first couple of years. Man, those kids end up being
your best players. They're your best leaders. They got the
best work out, they got the best attitude, and that
just lifts your whole program. The more of those kids
you can have in your program and on the field
as juniors and seniors, I think, the better chance you
have of having a really good club. I go on
(07:17):
the record of saying this, and I'm gonna say it again.
I am D three biased, right, I'm no question about it.
I'm biased because I played there, And I think that
when I say biased, I mean like I can't stand
when I hear D one or bust. Like if you
don't go to a D one, I'm gonna just say
this word to you, then just suck. That's what people think,
like anything less than that. I interviewed coach Gilmore and
this is the clip I got viewed more than any
(07:38):
other on Twitter, and he said, he goes Nick. You
know he's a D two guy at usc A can
for years. He's like, I had D two teams that
would beat us, So no, I don't want to play him.
You know, certain teams and there's juicos that have as
much talent as we do. And I know our Wesleyan
teams were good. Now depth wise, I get it, but
there's something to be said about showing up at wesley
knowing that we were gonna win every single day and
(07:58):
winning and competing for a national championships. Like what's the
D three D one experience? You talk a little bit
about the difference, Like you won the ninety nine national
title at North Carolina Wesleyan. Was that any less of
a thrilled than going to Omaha? Like? What's the difference?
Is there? One? Oh? There's I mean no, there was.
There was no less of a thrill, not even close.
(08:19):
You know. I tell every group of campers that came
through North Carolina every summer all twenty two years that
you know, there's not all of you can play at
this level. And I'm a former Division three coach, etcetera, etcetera.
Kind of use my platform and I'm like, hey, Division
three is not a synonym for third rate. I'm telling
you I coached some players. There's some teams there that
were sensational. I remember one year before the rules came in,
(08:42):
we played eleven Division one teams and one year and
went eight and three. So you know, I don't I
don't like that term either, and I hear that some
as well, and I try to downplay that when I
talked to all these kids and their parents and the
campers that I don't know where you're gonna fit right now.
You're young. There's a lot of great pro burns out
there at the Division three level, the Division two level
(09:03):
junior college. You got to find the right fit for you.
You know, certainly, where you can get on the field,
you can play, you can be happy to get a
good degree. So I'm on Division three bias, uh as well,
for sure. I mean that's where I cut my teeth
and that's where I had so much, so much fun.
Obviously it was a little simpler back then, but I
(09:23):
long for those days at times. You know, kids that
just played for the love of the game and there's
you know, no scholarships and um sometimes a little less
he goes at time, and yeah, it's it's it's fun.
I mean, baseball is baseball, I mean winning and having
fun and developing. And you know you've got teammates for
life from North Carolina Westley and I'm I'm quite sure
(09:44):
I have friends for life there. So the model line,
it's all about relationships. Wherever you develop those that play
whatever level that is, it can be great. That's Mike Fox,
former had baseball coach for the tar Heels at the
University of North Carolina as well as the Battling Ships
from North Carolina Wesleyan College. When we return, Coach Fox
and I are going to talk about life lessons that
(10:05):
I actually learned playing for him and advice for kids
who want to play sports in college. Welcome back to
the Reform Sports Project podcast. Where Coach Fox and I
left off. We were about to discuss lessons learned on
the field, early ranking and recruiting, and his advice for
(10:26):
those looking to play sports in college. Coach, this is
not scripted, and you just like, I feel like I'm
putting him on a t for you. You like segue
that perfect you brought up relationship. That's what I wanted
to get into. And I'm gonna tell two quick stories
and then I'm gonna let you roll with it. I
learned one of the greatest life lessons from you ever,
and that is that to be a great leader everyone.
And I learned this when I was a manager in
office in New York and in my pressional career. Everyone's
(10:48):
got to be treated differently. And you taught me that
my freshman year playing for you. I remember I was
very insecure, very very unsure. I felt small, I felt little.
I just I was nervous, nervous, little freshman. And you
kept telling me, like, you're a good player. Do you
know how good you are? But then i'd I'd watch
Tim Wright from ever tim he get out of the cage,
and you wouldn't be afraid to kind of get on him,
and he would get mad and react in a good way,
(11:10):
like it motivated him. But if you did that to me,
I mean I might have fallen over. I was so
nervous at that time. So you would always talk to
me differently, and I'll never forget you put your arm
around me one time and you probably don't remember, but
do you know how good you are? Like when are
you gonna chill out a little bit? And then one
time where at work study And then I probably don't
want me to say this on the RM, I'm gonna say,
I don't care you're retired. No, I don't care. I'm
gonna say it. Um, I didn't like working hard at work,
(11:33):
study whatever. I'm still nervous around you. I'm nervous talking
to you now because I respect you so much. But
you said, Nick, you're gonna work hard to that. I said,
shut coach, can I put it dip in while I'm
doing this? And you looked at me like number one,
I can't believe you just asked me and you said sure,
you got something for me. And I was like, oh
my god. And that those two stories I talk about,
they made me think you were human, if that makes
(11:53):
any sense. Like it it like broke down this wall
of nervousness that I had. Was that intentional? Is that something?
How did you? How did you know you got to
treat people differently? Like? Is that something you learned along
the way and use throughout your life or what? Well?
You do have to learn as you as you go.
I mean, fortunately for you, I had a few classes
before you. Uh, you know that I had to I
(12:16):
had to learn and sometimes you have to learn, you know,
the hard way. Um, I think it's the biggest challenge
of coaching, UM these days. And because you're you're you're
limited with tom you know, the rosters are bigger. Uh,
you don't spend as much time, let's say, with the
pictures if you're the head coach or you know, the hitters,
if you're the pissing coach. And it's something you really
(12:36):
have to work. You have to work hard at it.
And uh, because every every kid, every every player is different,
different backgrounds, you have to find out as fast as can,
like what what makes them tick and what buttons to push?
And um, your window of getting the best out of
them is is short. And you can't take a year
(12:59):
and just let them just sort of flounder or he's
missed out on an opportunity, you know, on an opportunity.
And UM, yeah, I mean that's why every every freshman
that comes into our program, you know, in the summer,
I spend I don't know, probably an hour and a
half to two hours talking to each one of them individually,
and we don't talk at all about baseball. I'll give
you an example, like, uh, you know who's uh, who's
(13:21):
your role model? Um, you know, hobbies, what are your
three worst habits. Um, questions like that that, I get that,
and I take a lot of notes, so I get
to pull out of these young kids, you know a
little bit more than I would otherwise. So right out
of the gate, it gives me an opportunity to try
to know them as people. I'll figure them out on
the field being around him enough. But um, I think
(13:43):
the key, the key is to learn them, you know,
who they are as people and family and background, and
because you know you're gonna have those challenges with him
at times and you're gonna have to just talk to
him as you know, as kids at some point without
the baseball and because they're gonna struggle in all areas
of their life potentially well meant health is a big
topic that's coming up a lot. You know, back in
(14:03):
thirty forty years ago, I'm sure twenty five years ago, Gali,
it was like, you know, if you're not tough, like,
let's go, let's go pick it up a little bit here. Well,
you know, as more and more comes out where you know,
there's athletes that are speaking. I can just think of
Ben Gordon, you know, Michael Phelps. These guys are talking
about how you know, these things that under so much pressure, stress,
you know, and you can trace a lot of that
back to that early specializing, like that early intensity at
(14:25):
those young ages. Some of those extreme athletes, Olympians and
so on, they don't really experience much of a childhood,
so there's like trauma and stuff. Is that something that
you had to kind of learn as you go? I mean,
because it's kind of a new thing. Is that something
you were conscious about like keeping in mind that you know,
the kids mental well being along the way. Yeah, it's um,
I mean, it is a it is a it's a
great topic down It's one I've had to learn and research,
(14:47):
and you know, obviously there's a big difference. I think
the one thing that's frustrated me over the past a
few years. As you'll hear people talk about mental health,
they'll astly say the word mental illness, and there's a
vast um distinction you know between the two. Um. I
know from personal experience with one of my children who
(15:08):
suffers from a mental illness, that's that's quite different than
mental health. When we talk about mental health with athletes,
we're talking about um, you know, anxiety. We're talking about
maybe maybe bits of depression, sadness, not the clinical type
of depression that can be associated with mental illness, um,
(15:28):
but those type of things with kids having you know,
too much expectations on them, losing their drive, losing their fun,
not wanting to do their sport anymore because there there's
too many people wanting them to do this and that,
and it does become a mental thing much more than
a physical one. And unfortunately, Carolina, you have these resources
(15:49):
with sports psychologists and not spending an ord amount of
time with Juan Jenny Shannon at U n C, who
is just outstanding. She helped me greatly with several of
my players. I would go talk to her and say, Okay,
tell me, how can I how can I meet this
kid where you know basically where his needs are and um,
(16:09):
so you know they have to be careful what they
can divulge to you, of course, but yeah, it is
extremely important now and there's more and more kids that are,
unfortunately in that category where their brain, if you will,
just kind of gets in the way of just their
joy and their talent and just being able to go
out and play the game and have fun like like
I feel like I did as a as a kid.
(16:29):
You know, in the backyard, and there were no expectations.
And these kids that are told they're gonna be first
round draft picks and they're gonna make all this money,
you know, when they're when they're fourteen, fifteen, sixteen years old.
It's just a cringe when I you know, when I
hear that with kids, because it's extremely unfair to them.
I think this is my own opinion based off all
these conversations that I've had, and I really believe a
(16:53):
lot of the issues you can trace back to these
young rankings, I mean rank individual rankings that like who's
the elite elite of the elite eight year old, nine
year old, ten year old level? Like what is God named?
Like what? Like I just think it's crazy, But it's
a chase to me. I almost look at like it's
like an addiction for parents, like their wallets just come out,
but they justified or people, Well, kids are getting offered
(17:13):
when they're thirteen fourteen, and I sit there and I go,
who's getting offered like the Lebron James kid, Like there's
not that many, Like you gotta be a stud to
do that, Am I wrong? Like how does that change
who's in charge of that because quote, I'm gonna just
say this, you might get mad at me and hang up.
I don't care, but don't hang up, please don't. But
parents will say to me, college coaches preach multiple sports
and all us, but then they offer fourteen year old.
(17:34):
They talk out of both sides of their mouth. What
are your thoughts on that whole young age thing and
how do you think it can be fixed? Well, that's
a you know, that's a topic for about a two hours. Sure, no,
I get it discussion. I mean just uh yeah. The
earlier recruiting is um surly something and I'm not gonna
not gonna miss um. And I saw it throughout my career.
(17:55):
I mean I remember making home visits with you know,
Rest Adams for example, you know, early in my time
at you and see you know, going to his house
and you know, be in a first round pick and
playing you know, for Toronto and he didn't commit untol
you know, his senior year. And you know, honestly, you're
almost forced. You're you're forced to offer kids, um, so
to speak, because you either with some of them, either
(18:17):
you get in the boat if you will, or you know,
or you get left. Now you know, is that a
particular reason to offer, you know, man, not particularly, but
there are other factors that are you know, that are involved. Um,
maybe he's been to your camp. Maybe he tells you
I want to come to North Carolina. But I've got
offers from this school, this school, this school, and you
(18:38):
you're either gonna wait or you're not. I mean, it
is completely, absolutely, utterly, completely out of control. And you
you just said the question that everyone would like to
have an answer to is how do you get it
back under control? Well, I'm not sure you do at
this point. The one way coaches I've mentioned is as
soon as you get a verbal commitment, you sign them
(19:00):
in right then to a national let of intent and
an athletic scholarship agreement which binds the two parties together.
That might slow it down cancelation the season. The pandemic
briefly slowed down recruiting, and then all of a sudden
and went right back to warp speed. And now it's
even worse because kids are committing now to schools and
they've never met the coach face to face, never been
(19:21):
in the stadium, never met the academic councilor and that
takes all the relationship out of recruiting, and I desperately
held on or tried to hold on to that relationship
part of recruiting UM, but it almost nearly became impossible.
And with early recruiting and early commitments comes to all
(19:41):
sorts of issues going forward down the road. As we know,
that's why you're seeing the commits, that's why you're seeing transfers.
That's where you're seeing, UM, the fallout of kids committing
with their in the ninth grade. And yes, still we
look like we're talking out of both sides of our mouth.
I'm sure I do, but honestly, I don't really care
anymore because I'm retired. But it's not right and it's
(20:05):
bothered me ever since we started having to do it. UM.
The younger coaches are much more equipped, I think, to
do it because they sort of grew up in it. UM.
I spoke to Halbert, the former coach at Auburn yesterday
and I've known each other for a long time, and
we talked for about an hour. He's been out of
the game a while, and guess what topic came up,
(20:26):
you know, earlier recruiting. And he had the same thoughts,
you know, as as I did about it, So tell
me this coach. A lot of parents want to hear this.
Parents and kids they want to hear what do they
gotta do to become college athletes? Like when you were
in the game, which was like three weeks ago. What
what what are you looking for? Yeah? What are you
looking for? What should they be focused on? You know,
ninth tenth graders they want to play. They're not getting
(20:48):
offers at fourteen. These are these are kids like myself
or whatever? What are these kids? What should they focus on?
Their parents? Play the game, are get on a good
team perspective, game draft right, be the first one out
on the field, be the last one out of the dugout.
If you go play a travel game at UNC, n C,
staateis Carolina, pick up the cups and the dugout. Those
(21:08):
little things they do matter. And there's still coaches out there.
I think a lot of them were still paying attention
to those things. Your talents are gonna take you where
it takes you, um and if it's good enough, it
jumps off the field. At Division one coaches, at Division
two coaches, they we see that talents The easy part
for us to see. It's all the other intangibles, and
(21:29):
I cringe when I see these kids. I mean I've
seen I've seen coaches, travel team coaches on the field
at UNC and shower shoes with no hat. I don't
think they have any respect for not only the game,
but for being on our field or anyone's field. And
I wouldn't recruit them because I would have to completely
retrain them. If you will just respect the game, play hard, um,
(21:51):
you know, run out of the box hard. Just just
do those little things and then you'll be noticed. I mean,
somebody will pay attention to you, and then your talent
will go from there. And obviously these decisions that you're
making off the field are extremely important. Or you say
your language, everybody's listening. There's always somebody watching you, somebody
listening to you. So try to keep those things in
(22:13):
mind wherever you go. Coach Fox, I'm so grateful for
your time. You're the man. I'm just so privileged and
honored that you willing to spend your time and may
love you and I'm grateful for you. Thank you, Nick Man.
It's always good to talk with you, um ad By
and respect you for for what you're doing, this passion
that you have. There's changes that need to be made
in you sports, and UH, the only way to make
(22:35):
changes with someone like you who just takes the bull
by the horn and start a movement. You started a
great one. That's Mike Fox, former head baseball coach for
the tar Heels at the University of North Carolina as
well as the Battling Bishops from North Carolina Wesleyan College.
Thanks for listening to the Reformed Sports Project podcast. I'm
Nick Boncourt and our goal is to restore a healthy
balance and perspective in all areas of sports through education
(22:58):
and advocacy. For updates, please follow us on Facebook, Twitter,
and Instagram, or check out our website by searching for
the Reform Sports Project. H
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