January 12, 2022 • 25 mins
College GameDay host David Pollack is a former NFL and collegiate football player whose extraordinary success at the University of Georgia earned him a spot in the College Football Hall of Fame. Pollack joins Nick to discuss how his experiences as a youth sports parent and coach as well as his time as a high-level athlete led him to become an outspoken proponent for rethinking today's youth sports culture.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
We don't talk about hints, we don't talk about home runs,
we don't talk about touchdowns, because again, I thought, asking
about that, that means I'm putting emphasis on results and
out tons, and I don't care about results and outcomes.
I'm like, listen, have funds. I'll try as hard as
you could. Yes, sir, I love you. Whether the worst
player on the field or the best player of this
seventh don't care. This is the Reformed Sports Project, a
(00:28):
podcast about restoring healthy balance and perspective in all areas
of sports through education and advocacy. Hi, this is Nick
Bonacoort from the Reformed Sports Project podcast. Joining me today
is former NFL football player and current host of ESPN
College Game Day, David Pollock. David went down as one
of the greatest college football players in the history of
the sport, having been named to the College Football Hall
(00:50):
of Fame after being a three time All American at
the University of Georgia. Pollock and I get into a
host of topics all pertaining to youth and amateur sports,
everything from his experience as a youth coaching sports parents
to his thoughts on early sports specialization and the importance
of kids playing and sampling multiple sports. Man freaking fired up.
I have another just absurd guest College Football Hall of Fame,
(01:11):
just a three time All American to Georgia. Won every
single award you can possibly imagine on the defensive side.
Former NFL player, major youth sports advocate. Really pumped to
have him, David Pollock, Man, Paul, thanks so much for
hopping on bro Absolutely, Man, Here's where I want to
start with you. Man, we were able to connect via
social media. UM, I saw some recent tweets that you
put out. Obviously you're a father. Um, you know it's
(01:33):
been in and out of sports your whole life. First,
I want to ask you what moved you to want
to kind of get up and use your platform to
advocate for the current culture. Youth sports will start there
to kind of see where you go with it. Okay, Well,
I coach, I coach you think sports and I have
to the last six years, and um, man have I
learned a lot of what not to do, um and
(01:55):
what to do and um the keys to kind of
having success. I'll be honest, Man, I heard it up
a ton brother, So I definitely have learned from my
son has taught me a ton about how to handle
kids and how to talk to kids and how to
deal with them and what those into it and so um.
But I've been done this journey, and I just see
the journey with parents and I see the pressure that's
(02:16):
put on them with other people. I was just talking
to one of my girls, my my baby girl, Leah
is a sixth grader, and one of the girls on
her team play soccer, and she missed his basketball practice
once a week and she plays on high level soccer
that plays, you know, ten months out of the year.
And I'm like, you know, she can play basketball and
and miss soccer and it's okay. Um. She's like, well,
(02:38):
she's got a spot on this team and they do this,
and I'm like, well, you know, you don't have to
travel like they say that you need to be at X,
Y and Z, and I know the problem is you're
paying so much money to be on this team that
people are like, crap, I don't want to lose my money.
But I was just trying to explain. They're like, listen,
sports are supposed to be fun, and what I see
is a lot of parents ripping the fun out of
sports and listen, to be here I've been one of
(03:01):
those people in my life too, Like I've been so
competitive in the past at times that I would lose
sight of that. But you know, I just I've built
my whole program with my youth league football team around
you know, a couple of principles that I love, and
my basketball and girls are the same thing. It's not
about performance, That's not what it's about. Like all of
it's about attitude and effort. And with all of these
(03:21):
coaches out there that you wonder why players play scared
or players play slow, is because we put a premium
on performance. You put a premium on outcome. When you
put a premium on outcome, of course they're gonna be disappointed.
Of course they're gonna play president. So you know, our
whole culture, with our youth league organizations that we've done
here in North Dakoni, you know, it's really been trying
(03:42):
to change that narrative and try to say, listen, your
best is all you can give. All you can give
is have a great attitude and give great effort. And
so I just it's been on my heart because I've
seen it when I've talked to parents recently about it
and continue to and it's just it's frustrating because I
think parents think that's the only way their kids gonna
get ahead, as if they played sports year round or
if they joined certain teams, and that couldn't be further
(04:05):
from the church. So initially it was called the Reformed
Sports Parent, and then you know, it kind of evolved
into a project, kind of a greater umbrella and kind
of like to echo what you said, I didn't start
it because I was I didn't have my own issues.
I have six kids, and you know, I definitely found
myself getting a little bit too wrapped up in it
for for a little bit of time. And you know,
(04:25):
basically there was a moment there in time where I
probably think I was putting my ego involved and like
my son may go over two or maybe Buddha ball
at eight years old, and then my ego was involved.
It was almost like and I think a lot of
parents get wrapped up in that, but I think, what's
one of the most amazing things. And I played Division
three baseball and I was fortunate playing a great team.
We want a national title, but here you are someone
(04:45):
who went to the highest level your sport, you know,
played in the NFL. One of the greatest linebackers in
the history of college football, and we're speaking the same
language because, you know, we feel moved to do that.
I think that's one of the biggest things out there,
you know, And this is one of the statistics that
was staggering to me when I first learned it. Ninety
three percent of high school athletes, all high school, male, female,
doesn't matter the sport, do not play a sport past
(05:07):
high school, right, Only seven percent actually go on to
college and above. So when you look at that number,
you realize, well, majority of people out there have no
idea what it's like to compete at a fairly high level.
So it's easy to get sucked into what Tom Dicker
here at the club, at the soccer club, at the
baseball organization is you know that fear of missing out, Hey,
if you don't play in the fall, you might lose
your spot. Whereas you and I have a little experience,
(05:28):
may say, dude, if you go out there and compete,
your more versatile play other sports. In the long run,
it's gonna work out. But parents feel that pressure. So
you know, at times I feel bad pointing of I
don't want to say pointing a finger. But I also
think parents really majority don't know because we all want
the best for our kids, right, we all want it,
But at the same time, how do we separate that?
Like everybody interview and Dave, I've interviewed like five We
(05:50):
just started rolling out the podcast and you know, speaking
of soccer, Anson Lawrences episodes out. He's arguably the most
winning coach in the history of athletics, right up there
with Dan Gable and John wood In with twenty one
national titles he coached mia Ham. He speaks for ten
fifteen minutes about the value and why all kids should
play multiple sports for as long as they can. Why
is this hyper specialization thing? Do you think it's just
(06:12):
easy to market to that if you're a business. I mean,
that's what I think. I'm curious to your thoughts. I
think there's there's part of that, like you see, but
I think it's a constant keeping up with the Jones.
This is what I think. It's what I see from
from a lot of people in our area. Um and listen,
I think Nick, we're both talking the same language. We're
not casting the supersions on people, and we're not telling
(06:33):
people they're bad people. Um, that's not what we're trying
to do. But I think there's a lot of people
that I'm around they wanted for their kids, really a
bad and they want to give him every opportunity to
be successful. They think again, and I don't know this
is because they didn't do it, And they don't know,
but I think they think they didn't make it. I
have a buddy that thinks he didn't make it because
his dad didn't give an opportunity to make it. He
(06:53):
doesn't realize that it's because he doesn't have a lot
of talent. Like, you can't make people great. You can't
give somebody a bunch of talent that they don't have.
And you know, the bottom line is when you play basketball,
you learn to jump and twist and contort your body
and slide your feet and you learn how to do
all these different things. You play football, you learn how
(07:14):
to anchor your base and really hit people and use
your hips and learn how to run with a bunch
of equipment on. You play baseball, you learn how to
go one on one with a picture. You know, playing
the mind game, thinking about balls and strikes. Um, you know,
having to focus for you know, in the outfield, having
to understand positional baseball where a base runner is. So
all the sports work together to make you better, and
(07:36):
they make you better in each single one. The problem
is people see now results, people look at what we
just taught them to do. I don't want them to
not learn it. I want them to keep up with it.
So I see a ton of people practice in baseball
year around on Sundays, like they just Okay, we got
football games on Sunday. Well, Johnny has a baseball practice.
I don't really care about Johnny's baseball practice. But parents
(07:59):
are wanting them to do two and three sports at
a time, you know, multiple sports at a time, because
they need to keep up because somebody else is getting
pitching lessons, because somebody else is getting catching lessons. They
need to keep their arm fresh. It's like, here's the thing,
here's what I can promise you. Nick, as a football player,
what I have seen. You had so many hits in
your body and you're done. You're done. And I don't
(08:21):
mean your body is gonna stop and it's gonna revolt.
I'm saying you're done playing the game at that level.
I saw one of my best buddies in college. Jeremy
Thomas played fullback at Georgia, went to the Bengals with
me in the pros. Jeremy's one of the most physical,
devastating blockers that I ever saw in my life. Jeremy
Thomas they went to the Bengals, was a show of
himself because he had taken so many licks and he
(08:43):
was just he was done. So I just think that
your focus your energy, just like doing drills. Like people
always ask me what are some college drills to get
my kids ready, and they like, what drills do you
do with our team? I'm like, I don't do any
of those drills, because when they get to high school
when it really matters, they're gonna have to do the
drills all the time. They're gonna do these drills every
single day. And you know what happens. You get sick
(09:05):
and tired of doing the same crap at nauseum every
single day. And if you've been doing it every day
since you were six years old, the same crap for
every week since you were six years old, that's when
you turn to your mom and Dawn and you're like, dude,
this sucks, Like I hate this, this isn't fun. Anymore.
So that's the biggest thing to me, is like you
can be a good coach and expect great results, but
(09:27):
demand fun and showcase fun like the most important part.
Like I make three statements after every single game. We
don't talk about hits. We don't talk about home runs,
we don't talk about touchdowns, because again, Nick, if I'm
asking about that, that means I'm putting emphasis on results
and outcomes, and I don't care about results and outcomes.
I'm like, listen, Lea Nicholas, did y'all have fun? That's
(09:49):
Lea Nicholas. Did y'all try as hard as you could? Yes, sir,
Lea Nicholas. I love you, whether the worst player on
the field or the best player in the field, don't care.
And those are three things that I always say to
my kids to remind them, like, this is a game,
this is fun. I want you to give all you got.
And here's another thing too, When the game's over, you
watch these kids, they're like, let me go get a
(10:10):
juice box, let me get my snacks. They're over in
two seconds. It's us parents, us idiots that literally still
over it and let us bother us for weeks and
weeks and weeks and make everybody around them miserable. So
trust me, I've been in that book. You're bringing up
my my My partner at Octagon, Peter Carlile, is actually
Michael Phelps's longtime agent. UM. He's a youth sports advocate
(10:33):
also and just an athlete advocate. But he uh, his
quote me way back when is so long as we
value short term performance over long term development, the end
will never justify the means. And you know he talked
about Michael Phelps simone bios, these great athletes at his
firm at Octon represents, I mean the battle with Olympians
and I don't know if you can touch on this
(10:53):
at all. Would come in public and talking about mental health,
right and I don't think people quite understand because we're
talking about the physical side right now. You talk about
hits that kids take in football, and well it's the
same thing in baseball. You know, if you have you know,
you only have so many bullets in your arm right
before eventually you just you run out of bullets man. Right.
Jacob Agram played shortstop at Stetson. Lenny DeNardo, who played
for the Socks, told me an interview is like dude,
(11:14):
he didn't pitch at all at Stetson Harley. No, all
of a sudden he throws a hundred because he has
all of his bullets left. So we're talking about the physical,
but the mental side, right, And there's people out there
who really don't think that sports is taxing. Will you know,
take a look around. You brought up, you know, and
I've seen it with my own kids. Initially, you know,
you're going from middle school ball to a trek league
to it. I see people going to three different baseball
teams in the same season, and then the kids go home,
(11:36):
do homework, they're in bed at midnight. It's like, dude,
can you talk about mental health is a big thing.
More and more athletes are talking about it. Can you
speak from your experience maybe some instances or some examples
you can see where you know, from an emotional development standport,
how mental health can play into this over maybe specialization,
but just over emforatis on performance at these young ages
(11:56):
while these kids are still developing, do you think about
it even so good A put so much on them
to be X and to be why and to always
do this or that, Like your expectations of them are
are so big at such a young age a lot
of times. And listen, Michael Phelps and Simone Biles or two, Um,
you're talking about the other seven percent to play college sports.
They're like the point zero zero zero one percent of
(12:17):
the world that absolutely dominated. But I guarantee you both
of them will tell you about the sacrifices that they
have made throughout their lives to be where they are.
And whether you know, I remember vividly Michael Phelps talking
about like he hated getting into pool. It was cold,
it was dark, and um, you know, I just I
don't want that for my kid. Listen, Michael Phelps is amazing,
and Michael Phelps and what he does is amazing. But
(12:40):
here's the deal, Like, what is your goal? Are you
constantly talking to your kids about college It's so why
are you talking to your kids about the NFL, the NBA,
that Major League throws mnastics? Why we take away the
emphasis of being a kid, Like the point of being
a kid is to have no cares, have no worries,
let it rip, have fun. Like when we start projecting
(13:02):
those things on kids and we start talking about you
going to get next lines and listen, Nick, there's always
kids that are built different too. Um, there's kids that
like love to grind and they can grind a lot.
I'm one of those people that I've always been a grinder,
Like I can grind. I just I've always been able
to do that, and that's always been something that since
I was little. I've always liked to grind and I've
always you know, master the craft and always want to
(13:23):
take time. But here's the thing. Most of the time,
when you're that kind of a person and you're taxing
somebody that kind of a person, at some point, you're
going to lose it. And then listen, mentally, if you're
gonna put all that strain on people, mentally, they're gonna
get to the point where they just kind of bucket
and say, I don't care, and we just gotta stop.
I think we gotta stop putting the emphasis on the
future so much. If my son and daughter play three
(13:45):
sports in high school and they're worse at every single
one of them. There they're worse at softball and baseball
and basketball, is you know if they're worse at football
and all these sports because they play off three and
they had a blast and they stayed out of trouble. Like,
to me, that's winning, that's that's absolutely winning. But when
I make basketball season, you know, year round, they absolutely
(14:09):
have a point where mentally it's just a breaking point
and it's like it's like riding a bike. Another thing, too,
is ai U that that I see people used to
be so competitive in basketball and play hard on a
weekend reakount basis. I think you watch people now it's
not the same. You know why because they always have
another game. Jim Calhoun said the exact same thing to me.
I don't mean interrupt you. Yes, he literally said exactly
(14:30):
the same thing. I mean because I watched these kids
and like, guess what if you lose this one, you're
in the loser's bracket. Okay, now I'll go over here
to the losers bracket. If I lose that one, I
go in another bracket. For God's sakes, Like you just
keep playing and there's no consequences, Like it's funny. We
pick up basketball at my house and I remember vividly
explaining this to the kids about a year and a
half ago. I'm like, listen, if you lose, you sit
(14:53):
like you sit on the bench, and then the losing
team if there's somebody left over who's not waiting. You
get picked up. Like those are things that like you
used to understand when you played pick up basketball, like
oh crap, I gotta sit. I don't want to I
don't want to lose. But now everybody's got a game.
You know, you go into different brackets, so there's always games,
there's always there's seventeen different divisions. My god, everybody gets
(15:15):
a ring every weekend because you can go in a
different division and go in a different ring. That's David Pollock,
former NFL football player and current host of ESPNS College
Game Day. When we returned, we discussed the importance of
versatility and why it's so imperative kids be allowed to
develop through struggle in youth sports. Welcome back to the
(15:40):
Reformed Sports Project podcast. Where David and I left off,
we were about to discuss the importance of being versatile
and how resiliency is developed through struggle and failure. You know,
I think as I'm listening to you know, I'm going
you know what we're taking away and this comes up
a lot is what I think the greatest things you know,
sports teaches us all on here what sport it is
(16:00):
I'm getting ready to watch my kids wrestling tournament tomorrow. Man,
I love that sport. Never wrestled day in my life.
But when you lose, you lose. You can't blame the ball,
I can't blame the umpire, and you can really self reflect.
And one of the greatest gifts I got from my
sport experience was the failure and resiliency that came through
working through that. And if all we're doing is, you know,
bouncing from team to team, we're not starting shortstops. So
(16:22):
I'm gonna go start my own team, which is like
I say this a lot of interviews, but it's like,
for some reason, so many parents think that, like if
they're kids are halfway decent athlete, if they're not playing shortstop,
it's like the unbelievable, Like how is that not possible?
Like dude, like what why? What is up with shortstop?
Like I get it, but like you gotta go start
your own team, Like what's wrong with telling your kid, Hey,
you want to get better, maybe you need to work
(16:42):
on your game a little bit. So and so in
front of you is a little bit more advanced. You know,
go find a way to play left field. Because Tim
Corbin told me in our interview, you can listen to it.
He's like, Nick, we might have nine shortstops because traditionally
your shortstop usually is the best athlete on the field.
In many instances, only one shortstops on our field. So
what happens. One of them could play left field if
he competes. One can end up being a catcher if
someone gets on the bump and start shoving throwing nine
(17:05):
Like adversity, you learn resiliency and also versatility. I know
I'm using a bunch of words there, but I feel
like we're taking those things away from our kids by
constantly preparing the path for them as opposed to preparing
them for the path. Can you get into that a
little bit, those lessons that you learned. One of my
kids on my three football team gave me assurance the
end of the season. He's like, I'm trying to find
some point. I found something that's perfect, he said, lessons,
(17:26):
not losses. And I thought it was great. I thought
it was an awesome point. And that's the reason, right, Like,
we've got to learn from our failures. We've gotta learn
from our losses. And here's the thing I think long
term we can't think now like perfect example, right now,
my son is seventh grade kid. Right, he's a seventh
grade board that plays on the eighth grade boys team.
There's a lot of kids on the team. There's a
(17:47):
lot of kids on the team that he's better at that.
He doesn't play a lot. He doesn't play a lot
at all. Okay, Well, guess what I can do as
a parent. I can do one of two things. I
can support the coach and support the team. Or I
can support the player and be like, oh, you should
play more. And when I do that and I tell
him that, guess what I do? I cause a toxic environment. Now,
(18:08):
now he doesn't listen to the coach because the coach
doesn't know what he's talking about. He's just playing his kid.
He's just playing X, Y and Z, or undermining coaches
because we think you should be X. Why don't you
just let your kids play and see what they turn into. Like,
I don't think it has to be right now. It
has to be shortstop, it has to be a third base.
You don't know what your kids going to be long term.
(18:29):
You have no clue. But I do know that there
is so much value in telling your son or your daughter.
Every day, Hey, go show up and be the best
you can be. And wherever they put you, that's where
you are. And guess what. Sometimes in life, you're gonna
give me everything you have and it's not gonna be
good enough. And that's a reality, by the way, Like
you've experienced that. How unick, Like you've given your best
(18:52):
and you want X, and you want so and so job.
That's the job I want. I'm gonna go get it.
Somebody else gets promoted, Oh they didn't deserve it. Guess
what somebody else got promoting. So how do we teach
our kids that, no matter what the altime is, just
keep fighting, keep working, keeping proving, keep playing, keep having fun.
But I think a lot of that comes from parents,
and parents steal the joy because parents say it's because
(19:15):
he's a coach's son. Oh, it's because he shouldn't be
playing over you, but he is. Daddy balls. Just go
out and find your role. Find a role. What did
Doug Collins used to say, Know your role, starring your
role and stay in your role, Like like, just go
out there and succeed no matter what it looks like.
It doesn't have to be the star roll, the shortstop roll,
(19:35):
and every single every single outing. David, I'm listening to you,
I feel like there's veins. I can't see you, but
I would imagine there's a vein coming out of your neck.
You're getting fired You're getting me fired up, getting me
fired up. Take a couple of minutes. There are a
lot of kids, there are a lot of parents, a
lot of people are trying to find the right information.
They're trying to find the way to properly navigate it.
(19:58):
You know, you're someone who's been to the highest level.
What can these parents and kids do to put themselves
in the best position to be, you know, to get
the most value extracted from the youth sports experience. And
also if some of these kids want to be able
to get themselves because listen, you go on Twitter nowadays,
every other human being is telling you how to get seen,
how to get recruited, which, by the way, that's the
easiest way to sell people to take their wallets out right. So,
(20:20):
how do you believe is the best way for kids
to get on coaches radar and the best way to
extract value from their amateur youth sports experience. Well, I
think that I think parents. Can you can find atmospheres
that aren't toxic. You can find atmospheres that are positive.
Do you have to look? Yeah, you will have to look.
I mean, for example, church is a priority in our household.
(20:41):
Sunday's church is a priority. We're not playing on a
baseball team that plays every Sunday, that plays every weekend.
Like that's just something we're not gonna do. We found
a great team that we played with now for five, six,
seven years, um, and guess what, we played two weeks
out of the weekend or out of the month. We
don't have to play. We we're gonna play for a
four months, three or four months, and we're done with baseball.
(21:02):
Like I think you can find atmospheres to find positive coaches,
positive role models. Here's the thing. If if it's all
about competition for you and that's all you care about,
and you think you have to be on a certain team, okay,
we'll play a youth organization close nearby and just play
your kid up a year or two. Like, you don't
have to go travel the globe. You don't have to
(21:23):
find a travel team that makes you commit to ten
months out of the season, go play out during soccer
season where you're planning against thirteen and fourteen year old
if you're an eleven year old, like, that's gonna push you, right,
that's gonna make you better if if that's your accomplishment,
that's your goal. Here's the thing. Sit down with your
kids and have them to find their goals and dreams.
Not you sit down with them and go what do
(21:45):
you want? I did this with my son and it
was really eye opening. I'm like, buddy, what's your spiritual goals?
What do you want to get? A compliment? Like, what
are some things you are you want to get that?
What's your academic goals? What's your sports goals? Or the
sports goals during basketball team He's like, Daddy, I want
to go out every day of the week and shoot
two hundred jump shots. And I said, buddy, that's a
(22:05):
great go to half. I said, but you don't have
to do that every day. And here this is where
the parent comes into play. This is where your parent
comes in and tries to help guide your kids and
help them find balance, because guess what, if your kid
loves video games, just because they're passion about video games
and excited about video games doesn't mean you let him
sit on them all day long, doesn't real real quick?
(22:26):
I saw, I saw, I saw that tweet you put
out a little while ago. Not to interrupt you because
you said just like that, but no, I didn't interview him,
but no, mar Garcia Paris said, I read in a
blog a few years ago. He goes, my kids like
to eat ice cream, right, and if you don't know,
who know margarciapar was just go pull up the Red Sox.
You know. He's one of the best ever play short
stop there for the fans out there who don't know
he is. And he's also married to Mia Hamm right
(22:46):
most decorated American soccer player women's side in the country.
He says, my kids love to eat ice cream doesn't
mean I'm gonna give it to him every meal. I
gotta be the parent. I gotta be the one to
tell him, now, go ahead. I didn't interrupt you. Well now,
and that's perfect though. It's just running the same story,
like we have to. We have to help our kids
have balance. You can say, all my kids super motivated.
(23:07):
My kid wants to you know, he wants to make
his dreams come true. He wants to do this that's great.
We still have to guide them, We still have to
give them. Like I can tell my son to go
shoot two hundred shots a day, and guess what, he's
not gonna want to shoot the hunder shots today when
he gets in high school, because he's gonna be sick
and tired of shooting two hundred shots today starting in
fifth grade. You know, Like I just so we got
we gotta help them define their goals, to find their
(23:28):
dreams and then give them baby steps to get there.
But finding good teams, Um, listen, it's not easy. It's
not an easy thing to do. But look forward. Don't
don't compromise just to be on a certain team. And
don't compromise. You know, what you think is to me
that the atmosphere is the most important thing, Like I
need to I don't care about competition as much as
I care about it. Better be a positive atmosphere. They
(23:48):
better be talking to my kid in a positive way.
They better not be swearing around my kid like that.
We ain't put up with that bull crap Like that's
not you know, you're not gonna talk to puye kids
but that so you know, I think, sit down with
your kids help them outline goals, help them make realistic dreams,
realistic goals. But let's not work on you know, things
that are seventeen years down the road. Help create positivity
(24:09):
and whatever they're doing, help them be the best they
can be. Don't play multiple sports at a time like you.
Don't think you're burning your kid out like crazy. You
think they're gonna love baseball if they practice baseball year
round and then practice baseball all durn peas in sevil
times a week like I just I think you find
those good positive outlooks and those teams and and stay
(24:29):
with them and keep looking until you find David Pollock.
Good luck to you, man. I can't thank you enough
for coming on and truly appreciate your brother. That's David Pollock,
former NFL football player and current host of ESPNS College
Game Day. Thanks for listening to the Reform Sports Project
podcast dom Nick Boncore and Our goal is to restore
a healthy balance and perspective in all areas of sports
(24:51):
through education and advocacy. For updates, please follow us on Facebook, Twitter,
and Instagram, or check out our website by searching for
the Reform Sports Project
We don't talk about hints, we don't talk about home runs,
we don't talk about touchdowns, because again, I thought, asking
about that, that means I'm putting emphasis on results and
out tons, and I don't care about results and outcomes.
I'm like, listen, have funds. I'll try as hard as
you could. Yes, sir, I love you. Whether the worst
player on the field or the best player of this
seventh don't care. This is the Reformed Sports Project, a
(00:28):
podcast about restoring healthy balance and perspective in all areas
of sports through education and advocacy. Hi, this is Nick
Bonacoort from the Reformed Sports Project podcast. Joining me today
is former NFL football player and current host of ESPN
College Game Day, David Pollock. David went down as one
of the greatest college football players in the history of
the sport, having been named to the College Football Hall
(00:50):
of Fame after being a three time All American at
the University of Georgia. Pollock and I get into a
host of topics all pertaining to youth and amateur sports,
everything from his experience as a youth coaching sports parents
to his thoughts on early sports specialization and the importance
of kids playing and sampling multiple sports. Man freaking fired up.
I have another just absurd guest College Football Hall of Fame,
(01:11):
just a three time All American to Georgia. Won every
single award you can possibly imagine on the defensive side.
Former NFL player, major youth sports advocate. Really pumped to
have him, David Pollock, Man, Paul, thanks so much for
hopping on bro Absolutely, Man, Here's where I want to
start with you. Man, we were able to connect via
social media. UM, I saw some recent tweets that you
put out. Obviously you're a father. Um, you know it's
(01:33):
been in and out of sports your whole life. First,
I want to ask you what moved you to want
to kind of get up and use your platform to
advocate for the current culture. Youth sports will start there
to kind of see where you go with it. Okay, Well,
I coach, I coach you think sports and I have
to the last six years, and um, man have I
learned a lot of what not to do, um and
(01:55):
what to do and um the keys to kind of
having success. I'll be honest, Man, I heard it up
a ton brother, So I definitely have learned from my
son has taught me a ton about how to handle
kids and how to talk to kids and how to
deal with them and what those into it and so um.
But I've been done this journey, and I just see
the journey with parents and I see the pressure that's
(02:16):
put on them with other people. I was just talking
to one of my girls, my my baby girl, Leah
is a sixth grader, and one of the girls on
her team play soccer, and she missed his basketball practice
once a week and she plays on high level soccer
that plays, you know, ten months out of the year.
And I'm like, you know, she can play basketball and
and miss soccer and it's okay. Um. She's like, well,
(02:38):
she's got a spot on this team and they do this,
and I'm like, well, you know, you don't have to
travel like they say that you need to be at X,
Y and Z, and I know the problem is you're
paying so much money to be on this team that
people are like, crap, I don't want to lose my money.
But I was just trying to explain. They're like, listen,
sports are supposed to be fun, and what I see
is a lot of parents ripping the fun out of
sports and listen, to be here I've been one of
(03:01):
those people in my life too, Like I've been so
competitive in the past at times that I would lose
sight of that. But you know, I just I've built
my whole program with my youth league football team around
you know, a couple of principles that I love, and
my basketball and girls are the same thing. It's not
about performance, That's not what it's about. Like all of
it's about attitude and effort. And with all of these
(03:21):
coaches out there that you wonder why players play scared
or players play slow, is because we put a premium
on performance. You put a premium on outcome. When you
put a premium on outcome, of course they're gonna be disappointed.
Of course they're gonna play president. So you know, our
whole culture, with our youth league organizations that we've done
here in North Dakoni, you know, it's really been trying
(03:42):
to change that narrative and try to say, listen, your
best is all you can give. All you can give
is have a great attitude and give great effort. And
so I just it's been on my heart because I've
seen it when I've talked to parents recently about it
and continue to and it's just it's frustrating because I
think parents think that's the only way their kids gonna
get ahead, as if they played sports year round or
if they joined certain teams, and that couldn't be further
(04:05):
from the church. So initially it was called the Reformed
Sports Parent, and then you know, it kind of evolved
into a project, kind of a greater umbrella and kind
of like to echo what you said, I didn't start
it because I was I didn't have my own issues.
I have six kids, and you know, I definitely found
myself getting a little bit too wrapped up in it
for for a little bit of time. And you know,
(04:25):
basically there was a moment there in time where I
probably think I was putting my ego involved and like
my son may go over two or maybe Buddha ball
at eight years old, and then my ego was involved.
It was almost like and I think a lot of
parents get wrapped up in that, but I think, what's
one of the most amazing things. And I played Division
three baseball and I was fortunate playing a great team.
We want a national title, but here you are someone
(04:45):
who went to the highest level your sport, you know,
played in the NFL. One of the greatest linebackers in
the history of college football, and we're speaking the same
language because, you know, we feel moved to do that.
I think that's one of the biggest things out there,
you know, And this is one of the statistics that
was staggering to me when I first learned it. Ninety
three percent of high school athletes, all high school, male, female,
doesn't matter the sport, do not play a sport past
(05:07):
high school, right, Only seven percent actually go on to
college and above. So when you look at that number,
you realize, well, majority of people out there have no
idea what it's like to compete at a fairly high level.
So it's easy to get sucked into what Tom Dicker
here at the club, at the soccer club, at the
baseball organization is you know that fear of missing out, Hey,
if you don't play in the fall, you might lose
your spot. Whereas you and I have a little experience,
(05:28):
may say, dude, if you go out there and compete,
your more versatile play other sports. In the long run,
it's gonna work out. But parents feel that pressure. So
you know, at times I feel bad pointing of I
don't want to say pointing a finger. But I also
think parents really majority don't know because we all want
the best for our kids, right, we all want it,
But at the same time, how do we separate that?
Like everybody interview and Dave, I've interviewed like five We
(05:50):
just started rolling out the podcast and you know, speaking
of soccer, Anson Lawrences episodes out. He's arguably the most
winning coach in the history of athletics, right up there
with Dan Gable and John wood In with twenty one
national titles he coached mia Ham. He speaks for ten
fifteen minutes about the value and why all kids should
play multiple sports for as long as they can. Why
is this hyper specialization thing? Do you think it's just
(06:12):
easy to market to that if you're a business. I mean,
that's what I think. I'm curious to your thoughts. I
think there's there's part of that, like you see, but
I think it's a constant keeping up with the Jones.
This is what I think. It's what I see from
from a lot of people in our area. Um and listen,
I think Nick, we're both talking the same language. We're
not casting the supersions on people, and we're not telling
(06:33):
people they're bad people. Um, that's not what we're trying
to do. But I think there's a lot of people
that I'm around they wanted for their kids, really a
bad and they want to give him every opportunity to
be successful. They think again, and I don't know this
is because they didn't do it, And they don't know,
but I think they think they didn't make it. I
have a buddy that thinks he didn't make it because
his dad didn't give an opportunity to make it. He
(06:53):
doesn't realize that it's because he doesn't have a lot
of talent. Like, you can't make people great. You can't
give somebody a bunch of talent that they don't have.
And you know, the bottom line is when you play basketball,
you learn to jump and twist and contort your body
and slide your feet and you learn how to do
all these different things. You play football, you learn how
(07:14):
to anchor your base and really hit people and use
your hips and learn how to run with a bunch
of equipment on. You play baseball, you learn how to
go one on one with a picture. You know, playing
the mind game, thinking about balls and strikes. Um, you know,
having to focus for you know, in the outfield, having
to understand positional baseball where a base runner is. So
all the sports work together to make you better, and
(07:36):
they make you better in each single one. The problem
is people see now results, people look at what we
just taught them to do. I don't want them to
not learn it. I want them to keep up with it.
So I see a ton of people practice in baseball
year around on Sundays, like they just Okay, we got
football games on Sunday. Well, Johnny has a baseball practice.
I don't really care about Johnny's baseball practice. But parents
(07:59):
are wanting them to do two and three sports at
a time, you know, multiple sports at a time, because
they need to keep up because somebody else is getting
pitching lessons, because somebody else is getting catching lessons. They
need to keep their arm fresh. It's like, here's the thing,
here's what I can promise you. Nick, as a football player,
what I have seen. You had so many hits in
your body and you're done. You're done. And I don't
(08:21):
mean your body is gonna stop and it's gonna revolt.
I'm saying you're done playing the game at that level.
I saw one of my best buddies in college. Jeremy
Thomas played fullback at Georgia, went to the Bengals with
me in the pros. Jeremy's one of the most physical,
devastating blockers that I ever saw in my life. Jeremy
Thomas they went to the Bengals, was a show of
himself because he had taken so many licks and he
(08:43):
was just he was done. So I just think that
your focus your energy, just like doing drills. Like people
always ask me what are some college drills to get
my kids ready, and they like, what drills do you
do with our team? I'm like, I don't do any
of those drills, because when they get to high school
when it really matters, they're gonna have to do the
drills all the time. They're gonna do these drills every
single day. And you know what happens. You get sick
(09:05):
and tired of doing the same crap at nauseum every
single day. And if you've been doing it every day
since you were six years old, the same crap for
every week since you were six years old, that's when
you turn to your mom and Dawn and you're like, dude,
this sucks, Like I hate this, this isn't fun. Anymore.
So that's the biggest thing to me, is like you
can be a good coach and expect great results, but
(09:27):
demand fun and showcase fun like the most important part.
Like I make three statements after every single game. We
don't talk about hits. We don't talk about home runs,
we don't talk about touchdowns, because again, Nick, if I'm
asking about that, that means I'm putting emphasis on results
and outcomes, and I don't care about results and outcomes.
I'm like, listen, Lea Nicholas, did y'all have fun? That's
(09:49):
Lea Nicholas. Did y'all try as hard as you could? Yes, sir,
Lea Nicholas. I love you, whether the worst player on
the field or the best player in the field, don't care.
And those are three things that I always say to
my kids to remind them, like, this is a game,
this is fun. I want you to give all you got.
And here's another thing too, When the game's over, you
watch these kids, they're like, let me go get a
(10:10):
juice box, let me get my snacks. They're over in
two seconds. It's us parents, us idiots that literally still
over it and let us bother us for weeks and
weeks and weeks and make everybody around them miserable. So
trust me, I've been in that book. You're bringing up
my my My partner at Octagon, Peter Carlile, is actually
Michael Phelps's longtime agent. UM. He's a youth sports advocate
(10:33):
also and just an athlete advocate. But he uh, his
quote me way back when is so long as we
value short term performance over long term development, the end
will never justify the means. And you know he talked
about Michael Phelps simone bios, these great athletes at his
firm at Octon represents, I mean the battle with Olympians
and I don't know if you can touch on this
(10:53):
at all. Would come in public and talking about mental health,
right and I don't think people quite understand because we're
talking about the physical side right now. You talk about
hits that kids take in football, and well it's the
same thing in baseball. You know, if you have you know,
you only have so many bullets in your arm right
before eventually you just you run out of bullets man. Right.
Jacob Agram played shortstop at Stetson. Lenny DeNardo, who played
for the Socks, told me an interview is like dude,
(11:14):
he didn't pitch at all at Stetson Harley. No, all
of a sudden he throws a hundred because he has
all of his bullets left. So we're talking about the physical,
but the mental side, right, And there's people out there
who really don't think that sports is taxing. Will you know,
take a look around. You brought up, you know, and
I've seen it with my own kids. Initially, you know,
you're going from middle school ball to a trek league
to it. I see people going to three different baseball
teams in the same season, and then the kids go home,
(11:36):
do homework, they're in bed at midnight. It's like, dude,
can you talk about mental health is a big thing.
More and more athletes are talking about it. Can you
speak from your experience maybe some instances or some examples
you can see where you know, from an emotional development standport,
how mental health can play into this over maybe specialization,
but just over emforatis on performance at these young ages
(11:56):
while these kids are still developing, do you think about
it even so good A put so much on them
to be X and to be why and to always
do this or that, Like your expectations of them are
are so big at such a young age a lot
of times. And listen, Michael Phelps and Simone Biles or two, Um,
you're talking about the other seven percent to play college sports.
They're like the point zero zero zero one percent of
(12:17):
the world that absolutely dominated. But I guarantee you both
of them will tell you about the sacrifices that they
have made throughout their lives to be where they are.
And whether you know, I remember vividly Michael Phelps talking
about like he hated getting into pool. It was cold,
it was dark, and um, you know, I just I
don't want that for my kid. Listen, Michael Phelps is amazing,
and Michael Phelps and what he does is amazing. But
(12:40):
here's the deal, Like, what is your goal? Are you
constantly talking to your kids about college It's so why
are you talking to your kids about the NFL, the NBA,
that Major League throws mnastics? Why we take away the
emphasis of being a kid, Like the point of being
a kid is to have no cares, have no worries,
let it rip, have fun. Like when we start projecting
(13:02):
those things on kids and we start talking about you
going to get next lines and listen, Nick, there's always
kids that are built different too. Um, there's kids that
like love to grind and they can grind a lot.
I'm one of those people that I've always been a grinder,
Like I can grind. I just I've always been able
to do that, and that's always been something that since
I was little. I've always liked to grind and I've
always you know, master the craft and always want to
(13:23):
take time. But here's the thing. Most of the time,
when you're that kind of a person and you're taxing
somebody that kind of a person, at some point, you're
going to lose it. And then listen, mentally, if you're
gonna put all that strain on people, mentally, they're gonna
get to the point where they just kind of bucket
and say, I don't care, and we just gotta stop.
I think we gotta stop putting the emphasis on the
future so much. If my son and daughter play three
(13:45):
sports in high school and they're worse at every single
one of them. There they're worse at softball and baseball
and basketball, is you know if they're worse at football
and all these sports because they play off three and
they had a blast and they stayed out of trouble. Like,
to me, that's winning, that's that's absolutely winning. But when
I make basketball season, you know, year round, they absolutely
(14:09):
have a point where mentally it's just a breaking point
and it's like it's like riding a bike. Another thing, too,
is ai U that that I see people used to
be so competitive in basketball and play hard on a
weekend reakount basis. I think you watch people now it's
not the same. You know why because they always have
another game. Jim Calhoun said the exact same thing to me.
I don't mean interrupt you. Yes, he literally said exactly
(14:30):
the same thing. I mean because I watched these kids
and like, guess what if you lose this one, you're
in the loser's bracket. Okay, now I'll go over here
to the losers bracket. If I lose that one, I
go in another bracket. For God's sakes, Like you just
keep playing and there's no consequences, Like it's funny. We
pick up basketball at my house and I remember vividly
explaining this to the kids about a year and a
half ago. I'm like, listen, if you lose, you sit
(14:53):
like you sit on the bench, and then the losing
team if there's somebody left over who's not waiting. You
get picked up. Like those are things that like you
used to understand when you played pick up basketball, like
oh crap, I gotta sit. I don't want to I
don't want to lose. But now everybody's got a game.
You know, you go into different brackets, so there's always games,
there's always there's seventeen different divisions. My god, everybody gets
(15:15):
a ring every weekend because you can go in a
different division and go in a different ring. That's David Pollock,
former NFL football player and current host of ESPNS College
Game Day. When we returned, we discussed the importance of
versatility and why it's so imperative kids be allowed to
develop through struggle in youth sports. Welcome back to the
(15:40):
Reformed Sports Project podcast. Where David and I left off,
we were about to discuss the importance of being versatile
and how resiliency is developed through struggle and failure. You know,
I think as I'm listening to you know, I'm going
you know what we're taking away and this comes up
a lot is what I think the greatest things you know,
sports teaches us all on here what sport it is
(16:00):
I'm getting ready to watch my kids wrestling tournament tomorrow. Man,
I love that sport. Never wrestled day in my life.
But when you lose, you lose. You can't blame the ball,
I can't blame the umpire, and you can really self reflect.
And one of the greatest gifts I got from my
sport experience was the failure and resiliency that came through
working through that. And if all we're doing is, you know,
bouncing from team to team, we're not starting shortstops. So
(16:22):
I'm gonna go start my own team, which is like
I say this a lot of interviews, but it's like,
for some reason, so many parents think that, like if
they're kids are halfway decent athlete, if they're not playing shortstop,
it's like the unbelievable, Like how is that not possible?
Like dude, like what why? What is up with shortstop?
Like I get it, but like you gotta go start
your own team, Like what's wrong with telling your kid, Hey,
you want to get better, maybe you need to work
(16:42):
on your game a little bit. So and so in
front of you is a little bit more advanced. You know,
go find a way to play left field. Because Tim
Corbin told me in our interview, you can listen to it.
He's like, Nick, we might have nine shortstops because traditionally
your shortstop usually is the best athlete on the field.
In many instances, only one shortstops on our field. So
what happens. One of them could play left field if
he competes. One can end up being a catcher if
someone gets on the bump and start shoving throwing nine
(17:05):
Like adversity, you learn resiliency and also versatility. I know
I'm using a bunch of words there, but I feel
like we're taking those things away from our kids by
constantly preparing the path for them as opposed to preparing
them for the path. Can you get into that a
little bit, those lessons that you learned. One of my
kids on my three football team gave me assurance the
end of the season. He's like, I'm trying to find
some point. I found something that's perfect, he said, lessons,
(17:26):
not losses. And I thought it was great. I thought
it was an awesome point. And that's the reason, right, Like,
we've got to learn from our failures. We've gotta learn
from our losses. And here's the thing I think long
term we can't think now like perfect example, right now,
my son is seventh grade kid. Right, he's a seventh
grade board that plays on the eighth grade boys team.
There's a lot of kids on the team. There's a
(17:47):
lot of kids on the team that he's better at that.
He doesn't play a lot. He doesn't play a lot
at all. Okay, Well, guess what I can do as
a parent. I can do one of two things. I
can support the coach and support the team. Or I
can support the player and be like, oh, you should
play more. And when I do that and I tell
him that, guess what I do? I cause a toxic environment. Now,
(18:08):
now he doesn't listen to the coach because the coach
doesn't know what he's talking about. He's just playing his kid.
He's just playing X, Y and Z, or undermining coaches
because we think you should be X. Why don't you
just let your kids play and see what they turn into. Like,
I don't think it has to be right now. It
has to be shortstop, it has to be a third base.
You don't know what your kids going to be long term.
(18:29):
You have no clue. But I do know that there
is so much value in telling your son or your daughter.
Every day, Hey, go show up and be the best
you can be. And wherever they put you, that's where
you are. And guess what. Sometimes in life, you're gonna
give me everything you have and it's not gonna be
good enough. And that's a reality, by the way, Like
you've experienced that. How unick, Like you've given your best
(18:52):
and you want X, and you want so and so job.
That's the job I want. I'm gonna go get it.
Somebody else gets promoted, Oh they didn't deserve it. Guess
what somebody else got promoting. So how do we teach
our kids that, no matter what the altime is, just
keep fighting, keep working, keeping proving, keep playing, keep having fun.
But I think a lot of that comes from parents,
and parents steal the joy because parents say it's because
(19:15):
he's a coach's son. Oh, it's because he shouldn't be
playing over you, but he is. Daddy balls. Just go
out and find your role. Find a role. What did
Doug Collins used to say, Know your role, starring your
role and stay in your role, Like like, just go
out there and succeed no matter what it looks like.
It doesn't have to be the star roll, the shortstop roll,
(19:35):
and every single every single outing. David, I'm listening to you,
I feel like there's veins. I can't see you, but
I would imagine there's a vein coming out of your neck.
You're getting fired You're getting me fired up, getting me
fired up. Take a couple of minutes. There are a
lot of kids, there are a lot of parents, a
lot of people are trying to find the right information.
They're trying to find the way to properly navigate it.
(19:58):
You know, you're someone who's been to the highest level.
What can these parents and kids do to put themselves
in the best position to be, you know, to get
the most value extracted from the youth sports experience. And
also if some of these kids want to be able
to get themselves because listen, you go on Twitter nowadays,
every other human being is telling you how to get seen,
how to get recruited, which, by the way, that's the
easiest way to sell people to take their wallets out right. So,
(20:20):
how do you believe is the best way for kids
to get on coaches radar and the best way to
extract value from their amateur youth sports experience. Well, I
think that I think parents. Can you can find atmospheres
that aren't toxic. You can find atmospheres that are positive.
Do you have to look? Yeah, you will have to look.
I mean, for example, church is a priority in our household.
(20:41):
Sunday's church is a priority. We're not playing on a
baseball team that plays every Sunday, that plays every weekend.
Like that's just something we're not gonna do. We found
a great team that we played with now for five, six,
seven years, um, and guess what, we played two weeks
out of the weekend or out of the month. We
don't have to play. We we're gonna play for a
four months, three or four months, and we're done with baseball.
(21:02):
Like I think you can find atmospheres to find positive coaches,
positive role models. Here's the thing. If if it's all
about competition for you and that's all you care about,
and you think you have to be on a certain team, okay,
we'll play a youth organization close nearby and just play
your kid up a year or two. Like, you don't
have to go travel the globe. You don't have to
(21:23):
find a travel team that makes you commit to ten
months out of the season, go play out during soccer
season where you're planning against thirteen and fourteen year old
if you're an eleven year old, like, that's gonna push you, right,
that's gonna make you better if if that's your accomplishment,
that's your goal. Here's the thing. Sit down with your
kids and have them to find their goals and dreams.
Not you sit down with them and go what do
(21:45):
you want? I did this with my son and it
was really eye opening. I'm like, buddy, what's your spiritual goals?
What do you want to get? A compliment? Like, what
are some things you are you want to get that?
What's your academic goals? What's your sports goals? Or the
sports goals during basketball team He's like, Daddy, I want
to go out every day of the week and shoot
two hundred jump shots. And I said, buddy, that's a
(22:05):
great go to half. I said, but you don't have
to do that every day. And here this is where
the parent comes into play. This is where your parent
comes in and tries to help guide your kids and
help them find balance, because guess what, if your kid
loves video games, just because they're passion about video games
and excited about video games doesn't mean you let him
sit on them all day long, doesn't real real quick?
(22:26):
I saw, I saw, I saw that tweet you put
out a little while ago. Not to interrupt you because
you said just like that, but no, I didn't interview him,
but no, mar Garcia Paris said, I read in a
blog a few years ago. He goes, my kids like
to eat ice cream, right, and if you don't know,
who know margarciapar was just go pull up the Red Sox.
You know. He's one of the best ever play short
stop there for the fans out there who don't know
he is. And he's also married to Mia Hamm right
(22:46):
most decorated American soccer player women's side in the country.
He says, my kids love to eat ice cream doesn't
mean I'm gonna give it to him every meal. I
gotta be the parent. I gotta be the one to
tell him, now, go ahead. I didn't interrupt you. Well now,
and that's perfect though. It's just running the same story,
like we have to. We have to help our kids
have balance. You can say, all my kids super motivated.
(23:07):
My kid wants to you know, he wants to make
his dreams come true. He wants to do this that's great.
We still have to guide them, We still have to
give them. Like I can tell my son to go
shoot two hundred shots a day, and guess what, he's
not gonna want to shoot the hunder shots today when
he gets in high school, because he's gonna be sick
and tired of shooting two hundred shots today starting in
fifth grade. You know, Like I just so we got
we gotta help them define their goals, to find their
(23:28):
dreams and then give them baby steps to get there.
But finding good teams, Um, listen, it's not easy. It's
not an easy thing to do. But look forward. Don't
don't compromise just to be on a certain team. And
don't compromise. You know, what you think is to me
that the atmosphere is the most important thing, Like I
need to I don't care about competition as much as
I care about it. Better be a positive atmosphere. They
(23:48):
better be talking to my kid in a positive way.
They better not be swearing around my kid like that.
We ain't put up with that bull crap Like that's
not you know, you're not gonna talk to puye kids
but that so you know, I think, sit down with
your kids help them outline goals, help them make realistic dreams,
realistic goals. But let's not work on you know, things
that are seventeen years down the road. Help create positivity
(24:09):
and whatever they're doing, help them be the best they
can be. Don't play multiple sports at a time like you.
Don't think you're burning your kid out like crazy. You
think they're gonna love baseball if they practice baseball year
round and then practice baseball all durn peas in sevil
times a week like I just I think you find
those good positive outlooks and those teams and and stay
(24:29):
with them and keep looking until you find David Pollock.
Good luck to you, man. I can't thank you enough
for coming on and truly appreciate your brother. That's David Pollock,
former NFL football player and current host of ESPNS College
Game Day. Thanks for listening to the Reform Sports Project
podcast dom Nick Boncore and Our goal is to restore
a healthy balance and perspective in all areas of sports
(24:51):
through education and advocacy. For updates, please follow us on Facebook, Twitter,
and Instagram, or check out our website by searching for
the Reform Sports Project
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