[3] You Do Not Destroy Evidence!

As Allard K. Lowenstein continues his investigation into Senator Robert F. Kennedy's murder, he enlists the help of Paul Schrade, one of the surviving shooting victims in the case. Together, they force a reexamination of the evidence collected by the LAPD in an effort to determine, once and for all, if more than one gun was firing in the kitchen pantry.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Well, their position is that we cannot now retry sir hand.
That's right, and only issues of a matter that proceeding
has been exhausted. This is former Congressman Eler K Lowenstein
speaking with an attorney about how to open a new
investigation into the murder of Senator Robert F. Kennedy. They

(00:24):
couldn't reopen Sir Hann's case, he had already been found guilty.
They needed another way in, so they came up with
an idea to look into circumstances surrounding witnesses and victims. Yeah,
this is not an inquiry into the innisence that guiltest
their hand precisely. The idea was to enlist one of
the other shooting victims in the case. There are a

(00:45):
lot of people involved, right. The fact that Sir Hann
is not raising that doesn't mean it can't be raised
by a victim. And the victim they chose was a
guy named Paul Schradee testified, well, he did, yes, trade
was a witness in the day, had dried. He would
go a little victim in the effect. Yeah, I think
the court has a power out, I really do. I

(01:06):
think that's a good tack. You're listening to the RFK tapes,
I'm Zach start Pontiac and I'm Bill Klaiber. When we
last left Alard Lowenstein, he had discovered contradictions between Robert
Kennedy's autopsy and the witness accounts from the night of
the murderer. After taking his questions to the district attorney

(01:29):
and not getting any answers, Lowenstein began his own investigation.
Today on the program, Lowenstein convinces one of the shooting
victims to join his fight and together to try to
force the court to re examine the evidence that has
been locked away by the LAPD. I remember Paul strad

(01:59):
was listening in the classical music when we arrived at
his house in La Yeah, Buck a keyboard concerto and
all sounds the same. You're prem anyway, what's your question?
Your personal journey person on the case? Start well. I

(02:26):
was in the Robert Kennedy campaign and in nineteen sixty eight.
Thank you very much, Thank you very much. Paul schwide
was a labor activist from the United Auto Workers who
attached himself to the Robert Kennedy campaign. Your time to
express my appreciation to Paul Schreid, who from the UA

(02:47):
w the night of the California primary. He stood on
the platform just a few feet from Kennedy, wearing thick
grim glasses and a huge grin. One of the things
I did, I gave him the peace sign at that point,
and he turned around and grabbed my hand. That was
wonderful at the moment, Mary Audi has just sent me

(03:08):
a message that we've been here too long already. And
then he made the peace sign at the crowd. As
he ended his speech, I thanked to all of you
and alex onto Chicago and let's win. There, Bob went
out of the back of the platform and into the
pantry area. I was standing there. He came in sort

(03:33):
of very fast, but with nobody with him. But I
thought was strange. You know where it was ethel where
his bodyguards and so forth. At that point Bob said
to me, I want you and Jess with me, Jess
as a chair of the campaign. And I turned around
and saw it Jess. So I fell back a bit

(03:55):
from Bob and turned around and bang, I got shot.
And I didn't know he'd been shot. I thought I
was being electrocute. He could have shaken violently and flashes.
I was in and out of consciousness for a while.
Lady had joined out Paul training the head of the

(04:17):
UA W is all two on the floor. Some way,
I understood that Bob had been shot, others have been shot.
I don't know how I knew. That didn't really come
to until next morning. After surgery, they removed bullets fragments
from my head out. Two thirds of the pullet was

(04:39):
still there, but in and out. In fact, they pulled
a piece of my skull, so I got a dent
rather than a hole. Ah, where are we? Where are we?
A few days after surgery to remove a bullet from
his skull, pulsh Raid gave a press conference from his
bed in the hospital, his head covered with a large

(05:01):
white cast. How many shots did you hear before you
felt that you had been home? I saw I wasn't counting.
You know, you're not counting shots off in this situation.
I didn't know a gun was going off. I thought, well,
I pretty much accepted what happened, that Sir Hannon shot
me and shot Bob Kennedy and some other people. I mean,

(05:22):
I just accepted it because that's the way it was
said that there was no challenge to it going on
at any point indication that there may have been more
than one person involved in the in the in the
shooting down, I didn't even know there was, you know,
anyone involved. I didn't see the person. That's not real
to me. I didn't see any gun, So I don't
know whether there's one or ten. Well, Shrade, you know that.

(05:48):
I think we should go into Strade a little bit more.
I think so too. This is Alard Lowenstein talking to
the co author of a book he's writing about his
investigation into the rfk assassination. Well, this has been he'd
almost was his life, and it was something that for him,
probably more than anybody except Kennedy's, was very difficult to
deal with because he was what Ripe find Kennedy. I

(06:11):
think he went down first before Kennedy was down. His
belief at the time was that it was straightforward, simple situation,
Sarrance shooting directly at them from in front. Okay, yeah,
let's take it then. From your initial discussion with Shrade
in nineteen seventy four, Alard Lonstein came and slept on

(06:36):
that sofa he was known as a sofa hopper, and
talked to me about that there's certain questions involved, and
that he was interested in the case. Then Lonstein showed
him a photograph of bullet holes in the pantry dwarf frames. Well,

(06:58):
he began talking about let's fixture of the bullet of
the door frame, that this was evidence that got my anxious.
The photo shows two apparent bullet holes in the center
divider of the double doors that Kennedy had walked through
just before he was shot. So these are in Sir
Hans line of fire, behind Kennedy and behind trade. Yeah.

(07:19):
In the photo, the holes are circled and a police
badge number is written next to them. There was a
science major, chemist major back in the university, and I
try to work out taking on a scientific basis. I
became interested in the whole truth of this. Sir Hans

(07:41):
Gunn held eight bullets three six, eight, eight shots expensed
where everyone, I wonder, everybody's laying on the ground. So
we're starting with eight. Yeah. Five bullets were recovered from
the wounded bystanders. Literally they taken out of their bodies. Yes,

(08:02):
so that leads three bullets, yeah, And Kennedy has wounded
three times. Two bullets were recovered from his body and
one passed through him and went into the ceiling. So
that's all of sir, hand shots, then that's all. Yeah,
any extra bullets in the doorframes or anywhere else is
absolute proof that a second gun is firing. So we

(08:28):
talked about this and Aler kept pushing me on it again.
Talked to Monica, my wife at the time, and she
was a lawyer, and so we decided to get involved,
and Aler and I became the people who were raising questions.
So Lowenstein and Shrade take their questions to a guy
who they thought could answer them, LAPD chief at Davis.

(08:53):
We met with him at a very good meeting and
they we talked to him about the issues that they're
may have been the second gunman that's their handmade are
not raised, the issue of bullets and the door phrases
sort of thing. Davis said, Well, puts your questions in writing,
essentially the twenty three questions as they were called. In

(09:15):
the process of decide, I'm working on these questions, I
divided them into several categories and they went through several metamorphoses.
Lonestein constructs a list of twenty three questions, and he
divides his questions into two categories First, he questions the
distance their hand was from Kennedy when he fired the gun.
The autopsy said the gun was inches away. Witnesses said

(09:37):
the gun was feet away. And second, he questions how
many bullets were fired that day in the pantry because
of that photograph exactly. Then Lonestein and Scharde wait for
the LAPD's response. No reply. At one point they asked
me to submit the list of questions again because they

(09:58):
said they lost them. Send the questions again and we
can't fire your questions. And I proceeded them to get
another copy of the questions. No, no, no reply. It
was only when it became clear that after a year,
this is now in the beginning of December nineteen seventy four,
that after a year of having the questions, that I

(10:18):
then said, well, if by the end of next week
you cannot tell me which of these questions you can
deal with, I will have to raise these matters publicly.
The LAPD never answered Lowenstein's questions, so he In trigued

(10:39):
held a press conquests do you think you're gonna hear? Yeah,
if there is a reason why they cannot reply to
my request delivered orally, And then in writing I would
like to know what it is. But as long as
they participate in the refusal to ground access to this information,
they are participating in a cover up of information which

(10:59):
we have a right to have, which the public is
a right to have, because we have a right to
know what went on on June fifth, nineteen sixty eight.
I was nearly killed that night, and that I have
a legal right as well as a moral right to
that information. My legal rights are under the California Public
Records Act. I also have a legal right, according to
my attorneys, because I might have a damaged claim against

(11:22):
anyone else who may be involved in the shooting there
that night. Eventually, Scharide gets a lawyer involved, a guy
named Vincent Bouliosi, who made quite a name for himself
as the prosecutor of Charles Manson. He also co wrote
the book Helter Skelter. Jaron Law's angel is a theory
that two guns were you the assassination of Senator Robert

(11:43):
Kennedy was raised again today by attorney Invincent Bolosi. The
more I get into this case, the more I see
things that I do not like. I think you can
dropped certain inferences from that I were seen so far,
I am not seeing anything that I do like. It

(12:08):
should have been just another wearied chapter in the string
of assassination rehashes, another attempt to reopen the investigation of
Robert Kennedy's death. It wasn't. The issues became very clear
cut in a hurry, as Paul Schrade, who was wounded
in the nineteen sixty eight shooting, and his attorney evinced
Bojosi produced first of photo of police officers at the
scene to establish the possible existence of a ninth and

(12:31):
tenth bullet on accounted for by police in detailing the
eighth shots from Sierhan Seerhan's revolver. The implications of what
I've said, and I'm not trying to be dramatic at all,
but the implications are enormous, in mind boggling. We've graduated
rather persuasively to a plane of solid, substantial evidence of

(12:55):
a second gun. LPD Chief Davis was not persuaded. We're
gonna hear about a furry conspiracy on this thing for however,
probably and then when we get through the that'll probably
be out to release John Will's roof. But Bouliosi pressed
to see the door frames for himself, and this statement

(13:17):
by Lapd dated July to A, nineteen sixty eight, and
that center divider was removed the bible off Angeles Police
Department and what became of it, we don't know. The
doorframe on the center divider with the alleged bullet holes
had been removed from the kitchen pantry that night by
the police and booked his evidence. One of the maitre
D's saw it happen. He calls it the center post,

(13:40):
the post, the center post, and it took it down
to the police department. Now, from your own personal experience,
were you able to make any judgment as to whether
it might have been a bullet or not? Appeared to
be a vote, but I can. I'll be sure. At
this point it appeared to be. I meant. The police

(14:03):
claimed that the holes in the door frames weren't caused
by bullets. In a deposition, the chief criminalists on the
case said that the holes might have been caused by
waiters bumping into the doorway with this trace, but they
did admit to bullet hole somewhere else in the pantry
and the ceiling panels above Kennedy. Three ceiling panels were

(14:24):
removed with bullet holes in them. This is Loewenstein on
firing line with William F. Buckley. If the police version,
the current version is correct, that a bullet went up
through a panel, bounced off the floor above, came back
to the second panel, each of those being an inch thick,
and then took off and hit Missus Evans and the
hat she was standing in the pantry door twenty feet away. Well,
I think that makes the bullet in Dallas look relatively inactive,

(14:46):
and I'm just saying that we ought to find out
if it had been around. Yeah, this bullet has a
remarkable history, and without that history, you have two guns firing.
So yeah, First, the panels existed, they preserved somewhere. They
were taken the evidence. It pres only two in in
nineteen seventy five, it seemed like schred and Lowenstein might
finally get a look at that evidence. They forced the

(15:08):
public hearing in front of the Los Angeles City Council.
We went to the city council and that's where Gates
said the sailing panels were destroyed because they didn't have evidence.
Assistant Police Chief Darryl Gates told the city council police
destroyed bulletmarked panels from the Ambassador Hotel ceiling, along with

(15:30):
X rays of the panels and the X ray records,
but he insisted the panels were not evidence since they
were never introduced in their hands or hand murder trial.
The materials simply had absolutely no bearing on the case
to determine the guild or innocence of anyone or who
makes that decision, mister Gates, the department, the investigative staff
who had had conducted this investigation, which is probably the

(15:54):
most extensive in the history of our department, also destroyed
at the same time where the door frames. You do
not destroy evidence, Trades Attorney Vincent Fouliosi. I don't care
if the evidence is a mack truck, you preserve it.
In the case of this magnitude, which may have altered

(16:16):
the course of American and world history. You take the door,
damn like this, You put it in the box, and
you want a fur hand, and you put it in
a corner. You don't destroy it. It's relevant evidence. Los
Angeles police have acknowledged destroying some materials and fowls in
the case a year after the killing, claiming the materials

(16:36):
were not relevant. There is growing pressure on authorities for
more information on this case, Lonestein and Shrade push for
an examination of the remaining evidence. Well, the gun and
the bullets are still available. They can be scientifically re examined,
and now by court order they will be. That's coming

(16:56):
up after the break. Don't tell that dial the ceiling
panel were destroyed pursuant to the same destruction order that

(17:17):
was issued for the destruction of the door jams. Before
the break, Hallard, Lonstein and pulsh Raid made so much
noise about the RFK assassination that they got a court
order to re examine the ballistics evidence to see if
the bullets recovered from the victims match Sirhand's gun. It's
a great victory because it opens up a possibility of
finding out the truth in this case. Set up a

(17:42):
seven member panel of experts. All criminalis in a locked
room in the basement of the County Hall of Administration.
The equipment as ready for the test firing of the
Sir hand gun in a workroom under tight security. The

(18:06):
seven experts are going ahead with microscopic studies and other tests.
Did you have hope ill when they convene the panel? Yeah,
that here we had seven people, you know, as supposed
to be neutral and understanding. When the findings were released,

(18:27):
those seven neutral and understanding experts did not agree. Four
of the experts say those three victim bullets definitely came
from the same gun barrel. One panel member says he
is very nearly sure the bullets match, and the other
two men are less certain, but can find nothing to
indicate the presence of any second gun. And as for
the second gun theory, their first conclusion it couldn't be proved,

(18:50):
and their second conclusion it couldn't be disproved. How does that?
How does that work? Well? That work because all seven
members of the panel had to agree on something, so
they agreed that that they couldn't rule it out, and
then they couldn't rule it in. Right, that's confusing. Today,

(19:12):
I think we have achieved a monumental decision on the part,
but that's not the way the LAPD presented the experts
find Because there was the unanimous decision by the seven
experts that there was no substantial evidence of a second gun.
Who had second and that really angered Loenstein. They said
they found no evidence to support the presence of a
second gun. And they say they found no evidence to

(19:35):
preclude the presence of a second gun. That is what
they said. I'm not a man who understands firearms. When
I got through listening to the experts, I understood less
than I did before. But I do understand that when
you say that the experts concluded that all the bullets
could be linked to one gun, you are inventing something
that the experts in fact did not say. That is

(19:56):
a fact. Lonstein thought that a new examination of the
ballistics evidence would answer some of his questions, but it
only confused things even more so what does he decide
to do? So I had to write a book. We
are now at the point where, after these questions are
the raised repeatedly and the lies told repeatedly, we still

(20:17):
haven't got the case reopened. And in fact we're writing
a book because there seems to be no other way
to get the case reopen, hoping that this, which is
in a sense, the ultimate and last sort of effort
there is, I think that screw it has to be
in this because there's not likely to be any other
effort after this. This is it. We're either going to
make this, And that brings us back to these tapes.
We've been hearing of Lowenstein with the co author of

(20:39):
the book he was writing. Many people questioned Lowenstein's persistence.
I think successful businessman turned to me and he said,
he said, why are you doing all this? And I
started a quote to him. I said, well, as Martha
Gellhorn said, if there's a group of conspiratorial ships. He said, no, no,
I don't mean that. He said, I understand that's why
you want to do it. He said, when I'm ask

(21:00):
you something else, he said, I think there is. He said,
I think you're absolutely right in your questions, But why
are you doing it? Because you can't do anything about it?
Because his contention was that the whole thing, he said,
there isn't any way you're gonna find out about this.
These people who are much too powerful, what they're gonna
do if you get in their ways? Bump you off?
There's no what are you? Who are you thing? They

(21:21):
can bumble off the president, they can bumble anything you want.
What are you gonna do? Former Democratic Congressman Alert Loewenstein

(21:43):
was shot and wounded critically in his law office in
New York City's Rockefeller Center today. Police said a man
walked into the office and shot Blowenstein five times with
an automatic pistol. The motive was not known. Police took
into custoday a man identified as Dennis Sweeney of New London, Connecticut.
Dennis Sweeney had worked with Alard Lonstein early in the

(22:03):
civil rights movement, and Lonstein had become his mentor. But
things didn't go well for Sweeney, and one thing after
another fell apart in his life. Lonestein had taken pity
on Sweeney and agreed to meet with him. Sweeney came
into Lonestein's office and shot him five times in the chest.
Lonestein died soon after. Some people thought that Lonestein's murder

(22:33):
might be connected in some way to Robert Kennedy's murder.
What do you think. There's a lot of strange murders
going on by people who have no reason to murder.
It's very hard to come up with a good reason
that Dennis Sweeney decides to murder Alard Loenstein. I think

(22:56):
it's entirely possible. Elard Lonstein, who was the architect of
the movement to block the reelection of President Lindon Johnson
in an age of television candidates, Alard Lonstein didn't look

(23:16):
much like a politician, and as a kid, he considered
himself an ugly ducklay if you've ever experienced the sense
of being left out, but perhaps you identify more easily
with people whose team left out, and you want to
do what you can to ease those problems for other people.
At Lonstein's funeral ted, Kennedy delivered a eulogy. He was

(23:39):
a little man, could not stay bye, do not he
sought to do every day, and he succeeded more than
most people of a dream. Sometimes he was called at
gade block. In fact, he was a rare conscious for
us soul. With Lowenstein's passing, Paul Schreide was left to

(24:08):
keep asking those twenty three questions about the assassination of
Robert Kennedy. It's uh, such a terrible thing to lose
al in nineteen eighty, Then you wonder whether it's worth
going on. I never really feared for my life all
the people. So you're just out there too much, and

(24:29):
somebody's going to get you in. But nobody has so
far ninety three, so there's still time they can still
get you. Yeah, So what um at the time, did
you have any feeling they did? Said so? Oh, yes,
I did. Of course, Uh they did, um cold. Eight

(25:00):
years after Loenstein's death, a police file was released with
the cover title Confidential Addenda to the Loenstein Inquiry. Now
we find out in the record the statement do not
answer Alard Lowenstein's questions because they contradict that what we've
said publicly in our previous episode, Robert Kennedy passed a

(25:29):
note to Alard Lowenstein. It's said, if a single man
plant himself on his convictions and there abide, the huge
world will come round to him. That quote is also
on Lonstein's grave style. I think, in my heart, I

(25:51):
deeply want to believe there was one gun makes things
so much simple. But I cannot believe. But I cannot
see answers to have been answered. For goodness, say, give
the people of the United States, which is I think,
the most hopeful place in the world to live, the
sense that when there is a complication of this kind,

(26:11):
that it isn't brushed under the rug that we're not
part of the syndrome that Americans have come to mistrust
of seeing questions remain unanswered and distractions set up to
make people feel the questions of an answer that haven't
been I took loring and I said, I wouldn't I apologize.

(26:41):
Next episode, I listened to the lost tapes of Sir
Hans Sir Han to try to understand the man who
called the trigger. You were planning to kill center the
panic only in my mind. Well, that's the only place
you can plant. That's in two weeks and then ARKA Tapes.

(27:03):
Crimetown is me Zack Stewart Pantier and Mark s Merlin.
The RTK Tapes is made in partnership with Cadence thirteen.
The show is produced by Jesse Rudoy, Bill Claiber, Ula
Kulpa and Ryan Murdoch. Our senior producer is Austin Mitchell,
editing by Mark Smirling, fact checking by James Williamson. This

(27:24):
episode was mixed and sound designed by Robin Shore, music
by Kenny Kusiak, additional music by John Kusiak. Our title
track is Maria Tambien by Crumden Music supervision by Josh
Kessler and Dylan Bostick at Heavy Duty Projects. Archival footage
courtesy of the University of North Carolina, the University of

(27:47):
Massachusetts at Dartmouth, and the Hoover Institution. Archival researched by
Brennan Reese Production assistants by Kevin sheepherd Our website is
designed by Kurt Courtney. A very special thanks to Kate,
Jenny and the entire Lowenstein family. Thanks to Gene Claiber,

(28:09):
Emily Wiedemann, Greencard Pictures, Alessandro Santoro, Judith Ferrar, Aaron Smithers,
Paul Schraid, David Mendelssohn, and the team at Kat's Thirteen.
For more information on the Robert Kennedy Murder, pick up
a copy of Bill's book shadow Play from Saint Martin's Press.
For additional content like pictures of the holes in the doorframes,

(28:30):
visit RFKA tapes dot com. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter,
and Instagram at the RFK Tapes and if you like
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