July 3, 2018 • 38 mins
Was the assassination of Robert F. Kennedy a deliberate political statement or the act of a sick mind? As Sirhan Sirhan sits in jail awaiting trial, the prosecution sends in a psychiatrist to find out.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I feel hated. I don't understand why. I know that
I am infamous and hated. I understand the reasons for
being hated, but I really have no appreciation myself, Sir,
for being So this is Sir Hans, Sir Hans first
televised interview. It's nineteen sixty nine, just after his conviction
(00:21):
for the murder of Senator Robert F. Kennedy. You had
never seen Senator Kennedy, No, Sir, you had. You knew
about him, Yes, Sir, I did. I loved him, Sir.
I thought that he was the prince, Sir, he was
the hope of all the fool people of this country, Sir, minorities.
(00:44):
So when you heard Senator Kennedy on the radio, was
it talk about something? Jeff Farmers about it? I had
to report about it, and it wasn't unreal to me.
I couldn't picture you, probably Kennedy wanting to do that.
During Kennedy's presidential campaign, he had pledged to support Israel
by sending them jet bombers. He would seem like a
villain to me, like a man who wants to kill,
(01:05):
like a man who wants to throw those bombs and
the people destroyed. I couldn't believe it. And Sir Han
said that this betrayal was the reason he killed Kennedy.
There are people in many in many are countries seemed
to consider you something of a hero martyr. You think
you were have accomplished something. I think that the world
(01:25):
has should know that twenty years of stuff for in
deprivation and justice with the Palatinion are peoples. And you
think your cases brought this to their attention. I think
whatever little attention it has brought to who's worth it?
My life, regrettably, mister Kennedy. But this version of sir Han,
(01:50):
the political assassin is very different from the confused, quiet
man he was in the weeks before his trial when
he told the psychiatrist, my own conscience doesn't agree with
what I did. Well, conscious doesn't Cleveland, what I did?
Your unconscious? I own unconscious of them? And what way
is it gets my upbringing, my bulliant natures? Who my child,
(02:11):
you know, would family, the church players will ethics of
blif noralities of blind and here it's just not me.
And here I go and splatter this guy's brains. It's
just not me. So who was Sir Han sir Han,
(02:39):
both his own lawyers and the prosecution agreed that he
was the man who shot Senator Robert Kennedy at the
Ambassador Hotel on June fifth, nineteen sixty eight. No one,
not even sir Hans lawyers. We're asking questions about gun
positioning or extra bullets and door frames. With the who, what, where,
(03:01):
and when of the case agreed upon by both sides,
the only thing left to figure out was why. I'm
Zack start Pontier and you're listening to the RFK tapes.
Hold on one second, Sure this is the right here? No,
I think it's the next one. Home. Bill and I
(03:22):
are in Pasadena, California, on a quiet block of modest
one story houses. Good morning morning, I'm Bill Munir. This
is the house where sir Han. Sir Han used to live.
His younger brother, Munir greets us at the door. Hi,
how are you doing doing well? Munir is short, he's
in his seventies. Where dark glasses because he has problems
(03:45):
with his eyes, and he chain smokes American Spirits coffee
every coffee. The house is medium size, with a couple
of bedrooms. It feels just a bit too big for Munir.
Who now lives here all by himself. But when he
starts listing off all the siblings he used to live here,
it's hard to imagine how they all fit. The oldest
down and thanks Sharif Aida no Sirhan six seal. In fact,
(04:10):
all of the names in Arabic, they're taken. They're all
biblically rooted. In nineteen forty four, sir Han sir Han
was born into a large family in Jerusalem, then a
part of Palestine. The sir Hans were devoutly Christian, especially
their mother Mary. Mother was an avid believer in Christian Joland.
(04:32):
She used to be a guide. There were a lot
of nationalities that used to come to visit the Holy Placism.
She used to tell him this is where Christ did this,
and this is where he walked. And she was a
tourist guy. When sir Han was a small child, a
(04:52):
bloody civil war broke out as Israelis and Palestinians fought
over territory. Jerusalem became a war zone, had a very
very much experience of terrible type of war. Sir Hans's
mother remembers that when he was a small child, there
was no escape. He saw his own brother kid. And
(05:13):
war is hard enough freely for old people, how it is?
Do you think with children? It makes marks in their
minds and their hearts, and you can't even they can't
forget it. You're walking from school to to home, or
(05:35):
home to school, or home to a store. You know,
you're always looking at the sky. You're always here listening
for the air raid sirens. The air raid sirens ran,
and all the women started screaming, and the kids they
all started grabbing them kids and screams and hollers. My god,
they were that I remember. The sir Hans were forced
(05:58):
to move to Jordanian controlled Jerusalem, becoming refugees for nearly
a decade. Then, through an American couple that Mary had
met while working as a tour guide, the sir Hans
got sponsored for relocation to the United States. There's probably
no single area holding so much of charm and beauty
and the good things of life as southern California. Fine buildings,
(06:21):
huge stores, busy citizen. The sir Hans began their new
life in Pasadena, California. When we first arrived here in California,
saw everybody was blond. It's our Harry going to turn Von.
(06:44):
Sir Hans family didn't have a lot of money, and
he struggled to fit in. In middle school, he was
embarrassed to have to wear the same clothes for days
in a row. In high school, it wasn't easy for
him to make friends. After graduation, he had trouble holding
down a job. What was he into? What kind of stuff? Horses?
Reading languages? But you know he'd liked to look at girls,
(07:08):
you know, he admired girls. And then he would not avidly,
not his avid his mother, but he you know, he
read the Bible. You mentioned that he's into horses, and
he worked at a stable, right, yeah, in his early twenties.
With his slight build and short stature, Sir Han thought
that maybe he'd become a jockey, so he moved to
(07:29):
a nearby town with a horse track. I understand from mother,
I'd ask her where Sir Han is. Said, he's working
out in a town called Corona. He wants to become
a jockey, and he lives out there in a trailer.
And I'm saying, well, when he let me know when
he comes home, I'm missing him. You know, I'd like
to see him. One foggy morning in nineteen sixty six,
(07:53):
Sir Han was thrown from a horse. He suffered a
head injury and was hospitalized and Louie. The next time
I saw him, one side of his face was scarred up.
Sir Han moved back home, and Munir noticed the change.
He wanted to be by himself, you know, he was
It's kind of hard to put into words. He didn't
(08:14):
he didn't want to be bothered. He was a little
more irritable he was, which you know, but I didn't
attribute that to anything except that he was in pain
due to the fall. But later on we learned it
maybe other things. I'm wondering if you could to show
us which room used to be Huh, yeah, sure. Muneer
(08:39):
takes us to a small room at the back of
the house. This would have been out here. Other than
a few of Sir hans old books and his desk,
there aren't many traces of his former life here, and
he had a fish weight hanging from the light. In fact,
it was so low it hit it bumped my head.
Muneer gestures up to the ceiling and says that after
Sir Hans all from the horse, he remembers coming in
(09:02):
here to discover that Sir Han was doing some sort
of strange experiment. It was like the little silver dollar
size and it was pretty heavy. So when it hit
my head, I said, what's that? And then he mentioned
something about it said, Rosa Crucians exercise. You may now
(09:22):
open your eyes. We shall begin the last step in
our method of a tournament with the cosmic mind. The
rosa Crucians, known as the ancient mystical order Rose Crucis,
are an occult order who believe that their members possessed
secret wisdom handed down from ancient times. Sir Han had
(09:44):
been immersing himself in Rosicrucian teachings. He talked about it
in that first TV interview candle experiment, where you would
concentrate on seeing the flame in the candle at any
color that you wanted to become. You just look at
the flame and I think red point instance, long enough
and you will see a red flame, and then a
(10:05):
green flame, and then a yellow flame or any and
then you get to the point where you can see
any color you want. Then both you and the flame
have become one with the golden radiance the consciousness of
the cosmic Munir, says Sir Han would also stare at
(10:25):
his own reflection in the bathroom mirror for long periods
of time, that fish weight, the candle, the mirror. They
were all various practices of self hypnosis. Then one day
sir Han asked Munir for a favor. But at some
point he it became clear that he wanted to buy
(10:46):
a gun, right, yeah, yeah, he asked you. Yeah. I
didn't think thinking. I didn't think anything of it. There
wasn't a connection between guns and death in my mind
at the time. You know that I took him, you know,
to be like a sporty, sporty first, more for sports
than for committing crimes. Muneer found a friend at work
who would sell sir Hanna gunn and so in early
(11:07):
nineteen sixty eight, sir Han sir Han became the owner
of an eighth shot Ivan Johnson Cadet Model twenty two
caliber revolver. Muonier didn't really think about that gun again
until the morning of June fifth, nineteen sixty eight, when
he arrived at his job as a security guard and
(11:29):
Nash's department store. The employee lounge was full and the
TV was blaring. Los Angeles Senator Robert f Kennedy was shot.
The senator is now undergoing brain surgery. When I looked
at everybody, they were all looking at the TV. So
I glanced over at the TV. This is a man
(11:49):
who was apprehended at the scene immediately after Senator Kennedy
was shot. Bloom beholds, Yeah, it looks like my brother.
He has refused to give any information about himself, even
his identity. I said, no way, let's let's see this
fellow again. We've got that picture over there now and
he is somebody must know him. Yep, that's that's sir.
(12:18):
Munia raced home to pick up his brother Adele, and
they drove to the police station. I said, the person
that they're showing on TV, I thinks a brother who
shot the senator. That's that's how he verified the fact
that was ser now being held by Los Angeles police
in connection with the Kennedy shooting. He is twenty four
year old Sihn Siroon mother and I went up to
(12:40):
see him the cell. It was so gloomy. We asked, sir,
you know what happened? What's this all about? Tell us
I don't remember. I don't remember, and then I asked him,
and then you know, he looked he you know, it's
just it's like you're asking me again. They're like, why
are you asking me again? I just answered you and
(13:02):
I don't remember. So he had no recollection. No oh
no murder, No no, no, murder, murder. Does it click
right bars the incident or the you know what happened
at night? There's a little I don't believe sir Han
is capable of murder. Murder didn't click right from Munir,
(13:26):
But the cops were about to find something in sir
Han's room that made it clear to them that murder
had been on his mind. Police searched the premises this
morning found a notebook in the suspect room mentioning the
quote necessity to assassinate Senator Kennedy, in which he iterated
and reiterated r FK must die, r F Kennedy must
(13:48):
be assassinated, assassinated, assassinated. Sir Han had written at the
top of one page, my determination to eliminate RFK is
becoming more the more of an unshakable obsession. Despite his
claims of not remembering the crime, here in his own
handwriting was evidence that he'd been planning to murder Robert Kennedy,
(14:16):
and those diaries that those writings, and you will admit,
don't look good, do they. You realize that they definitely
indicate that you wanted to kill Kennedy before he was killed.
You realize that I do now. These are tape recorded
jailhouse sessions between Sir Han Sir Han and doctor Seymour Pollock,
(14:37):
a psychiatrist hired by the lada's office to evaluate Sir
han sanity. They're a little hard to hear, but as
you'll see, they're worth it. Everybody has crazy ideas, and
I think that what you wrote in the diary those great,
those crazy ideas. Sir Han explains to doctor Pollock that
he doesn't remember writing in his notebook. Why don't you
(15:00):
remember writing these things? These things are part of here.
It is not Sir Hann, it isn't me. I'm not
a killer, Sir He told doctor Pollock that though he
didn't remember writing the threatening words, he did remember being
angry at Kennedy. Then heeled and a hero and I
(15:26):
worked for him. He failed me, he betrayed me, betray there,
he failed me. He betrayed me. Senator Kennedy, you have
branch ined our commitment to Israel, and of course many
people think that the Middle East will be the next
great powder keg and bring the next great confrontation between
the East and West. Senator Kennedy, you this past week
(15:47):
proposed that we send fifty jet fighters to Raeltes fathom jet.
Do you think that's why you wrote down in the
diary Kennedy instant at the time, I get, yes, yeah,
why don't you remember writing this? The thing that bothers
me and said, you say you don't even remember any
(16:08):
part or anything you've written? There another single damn thing.
Obviously really maybe maybe maybe I am crazy, right, I
don't know. That's it. There was lily, but brilliant. I
can't explain. I can't explain it. Doctor Pollock gave up
(16:33):
on trying to get Sir Han to remember writing about
killing Kennedy in his notebook and began to explore the
shooting itself. The reason I'm interested in you're remembering is
that I am hopeful, but the more you remember, the
more able I'll be to understand what went on that's
(16:55):
coming up after the break in my opinion, Sir Am,
I don't think you have any chance. I really don't.
I don't the jury listening will be negative, right, I
(17:18):
positive to you if you don't remember. Doctor Seymour Pollock
is sitting with sir Han sir Han in his jail cell.
He's been hired by the lada's office to evaluate sir
han sanity. Sir Han had said he didn't remember shooting Kennedy,
and doctor Pollock wanted to find out how much about
that day he did remember. Now, I don't want it
(17:40):
to fake. I don't want you to make up anything,
but I do know. The more clear this whole thing
is the better defense you will have. But he just
didn't fet when I look at that, there's any other
sny pools that are unexplainable, such as why could you
give me? Could you eithermize the points that are unexplainable
(18:03):
range that my whole going to the range that day
was unexplainable. Sir Han tells doctor Pollock that on June fourth,
nineteen sixty eight, he signed into a gun range around
eleven am. He was seen shooting there until the range
closed around five, Then he headed to Bob's Big Boy,
(18:25):
where he had a burger and a coffee. He then
tells doctor Pollock that he drifted downtown looking for something
to do and heard about a big party happening on
Wilsher Boulevard. All right, now, you remember walking down Wilshar
Baulevard and then you got to the Ambassador Hotel. Sir
Han arrived at the Ambassador Hotel around eight pm. All
(18:46):
were you drinking at that time? That's where you bought
the letter. Sir Han says he had a few cocktails
and wandered around the hotel. He tried to talk to
a hostess, but she blew him off, so he decided
to drive home. All right, do you remember walking back
to account I remember getting into MinC Remember getting into Minco.
(19:06):
You do remember getting into your car? And I wasn't
gonna go home? Go home? Oh home? Okay? So why
didn't you go home? I was drunk, Doc, I couldn't
getting my heel from drying that. I couldn't get myself
to drive that car. So Sir Han tells doctor Pollock
that to sober up, he went to look for coffee.
(19:26):
He wanted to get coffee. Apparently you then picked up
the gun and walked back from the car to the hotel.
Because obviously he wasn't killed with your finger. O. But
you have no recollection at all picking up the gun.
(19:47):
What do you remember when you got back in the
after you've had some coffee. I was joking, my choking,
I was choking. Now what I think I have my home?
Oh you're after the shooting? Yeah, I said, And you
didn't know that you were, Jock Kennedy. I didn't know
(20:10):
you get my plane? You're you're making a big to
do about You're not remember bring? Is it? You're not remember? Bring?
Is going to mean something to the jury? Talk on me?
I damn find what you did and appears to be
something that you knew what you were doing. Do you
get my plant? Doctor Pollock went over and over this
(20:30):
and he couldn't get Sirhan to fill in the gap
between having coffee before Kennedy was shot and being choked
by the crowd afterwards. How did you carry a gun
from your car back to um the Ambassador Hotel and
not know that you had it? Hoppy? You happy to
do that, but you kind of tell me that you
(20:51):
could carry again without knowing you hadn't or did you
think it wasn't there a sauce? Doctor Pollock had hit
a dead end. And while comparing notes with the psychiatrist
hired by Sir hans defense team, he found that the
defense psychiatrist had hit the same dead end too. This
(21:14):
was doctor Pollock February one, nineteen sixty nine, with the
Sir Hans Sir hand interviewed by doctor Diamond. The defense
team's chief psychiatrist was doctor Bernard Diamond, and he had
an idea about how to unlock Sir Hans memory. Now one, two, three,
(21:36):
four five. You heard a little bit of this tape
in episode one Very night. Doctor Diamond puts Sir Han
into a hypnotic state and gives him a notebook and
a pencil. Sir, all in your eyes, brought up at
the top of the page. I want you to write
(21:58):
about Cannon, he writes, RF came must die, RF came
must die, RF came must die, the same phrase that
was scrawled over and over in that notebook found in
his room right where. You're hypnotized when you wrote the
note book? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes yes. Sir Han
(22:21):
writes that he was hypnotized when he wrote his notebook.
Who hypnotized you sure have when you wrote the book?
Who hypnotized you? Write his name? Down a m all
r C A m O r C. Ancient mystical order
(22:47):
Rose Crucis after rolls, a Crucian said, why doesn't sir
ours you may now open your eyes every time you
try the extra sizes. You further developed the various planes
of your consciousness. Doctor Diamond and doctor Pollock probe deeper
(23:11):
and takes her Han back to the night of the assassination.
You're at the Ambassador hortawn. You're at the Kennedy receptions.
Your man I've probably picked her in your mind the scenes.
You're back. You had four PM calls, Remember that you
(23:31):
were guddling that stuff like lemonade and you went out
to your call. Your toop wrote to drive, viously picked
up the gun. Don't you remember picking up the gun?
All right? Now let's get unconfused. So now you picked
up the gun where you put the gun in your
pop under your armpits where your waistband. Sir Han doesn't respond,
(23:56):
all right. Now you're back at the party. You're ramber
being back to Harty. You're remember you get called black
coffee greening by sugar going what Coffey's don't a big
big silver all right? The right thing? Silver and big
(24:16):
silver pocketing in the coffee is there talk what I
thought it was, doctor, but it was everyone went there
than you. Huhm. I remember lying on the table and
(24:38):
twisting m You know it was some was joke. Ho
ho oh wait you skip something. You skipped a lot
the joke because I think happens. You're added a lot
there and your back, Doctor Diamond tries again already. Wow,
(25:02):
thanks to all of you, and how it's on to
Chicago and let's win the you're you're in the kitchen there,
you're standing in the corner and lots of people around,
a lot of noise, and you see Kennedy coming. And
what do you see, sir? It's mhm he's running. They're
(25:30):
running at you, after you? Who's running at you? Open
your eyes? You look at Kennethy. Dad, I order you
to look at him. Open your eyes. Yeah, I look
at him. You must remember what do you see? M
hm hm hm The son of a bitch? What that's
(26:00):
son of the bitch is coming? What do you see
he doing? Why? What's he doing? What's he doing here?
Go on, you son of a bitch. You said, Sarah,
why he can't he can't do what you can't do
what he can't, Sam the bomber. You're not going to
(26:26):
let him. Onya Sid saying did you know that Kennedy
was coming this way? Yes? Or no? No? But you
see him now he's coming side and going down the hall.
Look at him, said I open your eyes. Why do
you come on? Look at him? And he went on soccer, Yeah,
(26:49):
go on. You in for the gun, Sail. Are you
going to stop him, Saran? Are you going to stop Unran?
(27:11):
Look at Kennedy. Reach for your god, Sarahan, its your
last chance, sarahm reach for it, San, reach for your gun.
But the rat he is reaching spasmodically into the waistband
of his pants on his left side. You've got the
gun in your hand. Now let me see you shoot
the gun, Sarah, and shoot the gun. This Fringers are
(27:34):
going to the just dosmonic movements like pulling your twigar.
You're shooting Kennedy now, huh, Rods and Sars. Such exercises
of reaching into the cosmic and your own being may
bring fruitful results in a marriage. Seconds been shot? Is
(27:54):
that possible? Oh my god? If the cosmic atoment is accomplished,
great illumination as inspiration and in two ofive ideas will
be your reward. Sarah, I'm opened their eyes. Are they're
choking you? Saran? Oh, all right, Sa, they're not really choking.
(28:24):
It's all right, Sa, They're not really choking him. Now
I'll count to three and you wake up. Remember it
all you understand, Siran San. Can you hear doctor Pollock
talking to you? Listen to doctor Pollock. You'll remember all
of these things. You'll remember them exactly what you did, clearly,
(28:46):
how you felt, how angry you were, what was going on.
You'll remember all of this and you won't be worried,
and you won't be frightened. You've got a lot of
bad feelings out of you with doctor Sarah. And then
we want to help you. We're junior Sharon, but we
want to help you. Now. I'll count the three and
(29:07):
you wake up one, two, three, wake up, shake up,
wake up mom too, three, open your eyes. Sir Han
comes out of the trance. The first thing sir Han
asks is if the doctors think he's crazy? So what, Oh,
(29:28):
I don't think he's rash? And do you remember what
you tell us n It was to help you? Remember
do you remember what you telling us how to remember
its wild? Yeah, I know, but it'll come back. You
remember that, you son of a bitch, You son of
a bitch. I remember that. Who was the son of
(29:50):
a bitch? M You don't remember Kennedy? Here? You can
see Kennedy coming towards You see him. Kennedy is coming
towards you. And you said you saw the bitch and
(30:10):
you were lying with angers. You see Kennedy coming out.
You got the god. You remember where you told us
where the gun was? I don't remember five minutes ago
there and you showed me where the gun was. A
point to me where the gun was. The gun was
(30:32):
right here, right there in your belt. And you reach
for the gods? I mean you showed us right. I
reached for the god, root for it. I didn't reach
for my gun yet you've got in your reach. You
showed it. You reached in there and you showed it
how you pulled the triper. I remember. And this is
(30:57):
tough to remember. Oh not crazy. You've been very bad
and make up for mind. You can't remember them. But
no one gotta call your crazy. Nobody's got to put
you in a crazy now? Was that what you wanted
(31:19):
us to remember it. I don't. I don't give a
damn what you think. Seriously, I'm not crazy. This hypnosis
session and sir Han's inability to remember it, seemed to
bring to light his greatest fear about himself, that he
(31:40):
might be mentally ill. But mental illness would also become
his lawyer's best and only defense of him. The hypnosis
session was proof enough to them that sir Han had
not been in his right mind when he shot Robert Kennedy,
that he had done it in a state of diminished capacity.
In essence, they planned to tell the world that there
(32:02):
wasn't much behind the assassination of Robert Kennedy other than
a sick mind. When sir Han learned this, he asked
if he could plead guilty. Instead, the judge denied him.
Following the hypnosis session, doctor Pollock meets with Sir Han
alone in his cell three more times to finish his evaluation.
(32:23):
In the last of these sessions, reimagined Sir Han seems
to emerge. See I didn't show the man's I shot Kenny.
I told you that we'll killing a human being. I
told you I'd gladly go to the change. I'll gladly little,
but we'll killing Kennedy's I'm guilty, no one, no way
(32:45):
do I feel any guilt because he's just as much
a killer as as Hitler was. Everybody wants to have
me head justice. Why didn't they catch him? Sim And
he said that he was going to give those fifty
bombers swill. That's John guy up There is mass murder
up there, you Potama, Well, he's because the hours of
(33:07):
being milder. That's your philosophy in fuck them, that's your
philosophy in America. Behind people, mister bull the people not
with me, sir they are my people, mister Pollock, they
are my people. Well who collected? I want you to
tell that to the jury for me. The Arab Israeli
(33:32):
situation is now a key issue in the trial. Today,
for the first time, sir Han sir Han told his
version of the murder of Robert Kennedy. He told it
in a performance ranging from anger and defiance to a
kind of calm humility. He cursed the late senator, saying
Kennedy had betrayed in by urging the sale of US
jets to Israel. That was when he wrote in his
notebooks about assassinating the senator. Doctor Pollock took the stand.
(33:57):
The prosecution's key witness, a psychiatry from the University of California,
said flatly today that sir Han knew what he was
doing when he shot Senator Kennedy. At no time, he said,
could he find any evidence that sir Han suffered from delusions,
and he'd break with reality. Doctor Pollock told the world
that sir Han sir Han was not crazy. He is
not crazy or psychotic, though he had met it. He
(34:18):
was obsessed with hatred for Israel and hatred for Kennedy.
At this time, Sir Hann was very pleased with doctor
Pollock's testimony. He told one of his attorneys, see he
thinks I'm fine. And then doctor Pollock revealed one last
surprising detail that had come out during his sessions with
(34:41):
sir Han. There were people in the pantry who have not,
to my knowledge, been to the present time completely identified.
Under hypnosis. Sir Han had said someone was with him
in the pantry line. That's enough, you'll do. You don't
have to write it over and over again. When anybody
(35:04):
with you when you shot, yes, yes, yes, Now write
the name of a person who was with you when
you shot Kennida, write the name of the other person
who was with you. Write it down, Sarah, write the girl,
(35:24):
the girl, the girl. Do you know the girl's name?
Write out the name of the girl. Next week, Bill
and I go see about a girl from San Louise.
(36:10):
Grimetown is me Zach Stewart Pontier and Mark Smirling. The
RFK Tapes is made in partnership with Cadence thirteen. This
episode was produced by Jesse Rudoy with help from Bill Claibur,
Ula Kulpa and Ryan Murdoch. Austin Mitchell is our senior producer.
Editing by Mark Smirling, fact checking by Jennifer Blackman. This
(36:33):
episode was mixed, sound designed and scored by Kenny Kusiak.
Additional music by John Quciak So The Doctors. Our theme
song is Maria Tambien by Krumman. Our credit track this
week is Doctor Solution by Dorin Danoff. Music supervision by
(36:56):
Josh Kessler and Dylan Bostick at Heavy Duty Projects. Archival
footage courtesy of NBC News and PACIFICA Radio Archives. Archival
research by Brennan Reis. Production assistants by Kevin Shephard. Our
website is designed by Kurt Courtney, thanks to Gene Claibur,
Emily Wiedemann, Greencard Pictures, Alessandro Santorro, Paul Schrade, Lorie Dusk,
(37:18):
Munir sir Han, and the team at Caden's Thirteen. For
more information on the Robert Kennedy Murder, pick up a
copy of Bill's book shadow Play from Saint Martin's Press.
You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter at
the RFK Tapes and if you like the show, please
(37:39):
consider leaving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts
or wherever you listen. For bonus content, check out our
website RFKA tapes dot com. This week you can see
pages of Sir Hans sir Han's diary. Thanks, see you
next week. M HM
I feel hated. I don't understand why. I know that
I am infamous and hated. I understand the reasons for
being hated, but I really have no appreciation myself, Sir,
for being So this is Sir Hans, Sir Hans first
televised interview. It's nineteen sixty nine, just after his conviction
(00:21):
for the murder of Senator Robert F. Kennedy. You had
never seen Senator Kennedy, No, Sir, you had. You knew
about him, Yes, Sir, I did. I loved him, Sir.
I thought that he was the prince, Sir, he was
the hope of all the fool people of this country, Sir, minorities.
(00:44):
So when you heard Senator Kennedy on the radio, was
it talk about something? Jeff Farmers about it? I had
to report about it, and it wasn't unreal to me.
I couldn't picture you, probably Kennedy wanting to do that.
During Kennedy's presidential campaign, he had pledged to support Israel
by sending them jet bombers. He would seem like a
villain to me, like a man who wants to kill,
(01:05):
like a man who wants to throw those bombs and
the people destroyed. I couldn't believe it. And Sir Han
said that this betrayal was the reason he killed Kennedy.
There are people in many in many are countries seemed
to consider you something of a hero martyr. You think
you were have accomplished something. I think that the world
(01:25):
has should know that twenty years of stuff for in
deprivation and justice with the Palatinion are peoples. And you
think your cases brought this to their attention. I think
whatever little attention it has brought to who's worth it?
My life, regrettably, mister Kennedy. But this version of sir Han,
(01:50):
the political assassin is very different from the confused, quiet
man he was in the weeks before his trial when
he told the psychiatrist, my own conscience doesn't agree with
what I did. Well, conscious doesn't Cleveland, what I did?
Your unconscious? I own unconscious of them? And what way
is it gets my upbringing, my bulliant natures? Who my child,
(02:11):
you know, would family, the church players will ethics of
blif noralities of blind and here it's just not me.
And here I go and splatter this guy's brains. It's
just not me. So who was Sir Han sir Han,
(02:39):
both his own lawyers and the prosecution agreed that he
was the man who shot Senator Robert Kennedy at the
Ambassador Hotel on June fifth, nineteen sixty eight. No one,
not even sir Hans lawyers. We're asking questions about gun
positioning or extra bullets and door frames. With the who, what, where,
(03:01):
and when of the case agreed upon by both sides,
the only thing left to figure out was why. I'm
Zack start Pontier and you're listening to the RFK tapes.
Hold on one second, Sure this is the right here? No,
I think it's the next one. Home. Bill and I
(03:22):
are in Pasadena, California, on a quiet block of modest
one story houses. Good morning morning, I'm Bill Munir. This
is the house where sir Han. Sir Han used to live.
His younger brother, Munir greets us at the door. Hi,
how are you doing doing well? Munir is short, he's
in his seventies. Where dark glasses because he has problems
(03:45):
with his eyes, and he chain smokes American Spirits coffee
every coffee. The house is medium size, with a couple
of bedrooms. It feels just a bit too big for Munir.
Who now lives here all by himself. But when he
starts listing off all the siblings he used to live here,
it's hard to imagine how they all fit. The oldest
down and thanks Sharif Aida no Sirhan six seal. In fact,
(04:10):
all of the names in Arabic, they're taken. They're all
biblically rooted. In nineteen forty four, sir Han sir Han
was born into a large family in Jerusalem, then a
part of Palestine. The sir Hans were devoutly Christian, especially
their mother Mary. Mother was an avid believer in Christian Joland.
(04:32):
She used to be a guide. There were a lot
of nationalities that used to come to visit the Holy Placism.
She used to tell him this is where Christ did this,
and this is where he walked. And she was a
tourist guy. When sir Han was a small child, a
(04:52):
bloody civil war broke out as Israelis and Palestinians fought
over territory. Jerusalem became a war zone, had a very
very much experience of terrible type of war. Sir Hans's
mother remembers that when he was a small child, there
was no escape. He saw his own brother kid. And
(05:13):
war is hard enough freely for old people, how it is?
Do you think with children? It makes marks in their
minds and their hearts, and you can't even they can't
forget it. You're walking from school to to home, or
(05:35):
home to school, or home to a store. You know,
you're always looking at the sky. You're always here listening
for the air raid sirens. The air raid sirens ran,
and all the women started screaming, and the kids they
all started grabbing them kids and screams and hollers. My god,
they were that I remember. The sir Hans were forced
(05:58):
to move to Jordanian controlled Jerusalem, becoming refugees for nearly
a decade. Then, through an American couple that Mary had
met while working as a tour guide, the sir Hans
got sponsored for relocation to the United States. There's probably
no single area holding so much of charm and beauty
and the good things of life as southern California. Fine buildings,
(06:21):
huge stores, busy citizen. The sir Hans began their new
life in Pasadena, California. When we first arrived here in California,
saw everybody was blond. It's our Harry going to turn Von.
(06:44):
Sir Hans family didn't have a lot of money, and
he struggled to fit in. In middle school, he was
embarrassed to have to wear the same clothes for days
in a row. In high school, it wasn't easy for
him to make friends. After graduation, he had trouble holding
down a job. What was he into? What kind of stuff? Horses?
Reading languages? But you know he'd liked to look at girls,
(07:08):
you know, he admired girls. And then he would not avidly,
not his avid his mother, but he you know, he
read the Bible. You mentioned that he's into horses, and
he worked at a stable, right, yeah, in his early twenties.
With his slight build and short stature, Sir Han thought
that maybe he'd become a jockey, so he moved to
(07:29):
a nearby town with a horse track. I understand from mother,
I'd ask her where Sir Han is. Said, he's working
out in a town called Corona. He wants to become
a jockey, and he lives out there in a trailer.
And I'm saying, well, when he let me know when
he comes home, I'm missing him. You know, I'd like
to see him. One foggy morning in nineteen sixty six,
(07:53):
Sir Han was thrown from a horse. He suffered a
head injury and was hospitalized and Louie. The next time
I saw him, one side of his face was scarred up.
Sir Han moved back home, and Munir noticed the change.
He wanted to be by himself, you know, he was
It's kind of hard to put into words. He didn't
(08:14):
he didn't want to be bothered. He was a little
more irritable he was, which you know, but I didn't
attribute that to anything except that he was in pain
due to the fall. But later on we learned it
maybe other things. I'm wondering if you could to show
us which room used to be Huh, yeah, sure. Muneer
(08:39):
takes us to a small room at the back of
the house. This would have been out here. Other than
a few of Sir hans old books and his desk,
there aren't many traces of his former life here, and
he had a fish weight hanging from the light. In fact,
it was so low it hit it bumped my head.
Muneer gestures up to the ceiling and says that after
Sir Hans all from the horse, he remembers coming in
(09:02):
here to discover that Sir Han was doing some sort
of strange experiment. It was like the little silver dollar
size and it was pretty heavy. So when it hit
my head, I said, what's that? And then he mentioned
something about it said, Rosa Crucians exercise. You may now
(09:22):
open your eyes. We shall begin the last step in
our method of a tournament with the cosmic mind. The
rosa Crucians, known as the ancient mystical order Rose Crucis,
are an occult order who believe that their members possessed
secret wisdom handed down from ancient times. Sir Han had
(09:44):
been immersing himself in Rosicrucian teachings. He talked about it
in that first TV interview candle experiment, where you would
concentrate on seeing the flame in the candle at any
color that you wanted to become. You just look at
the flame and I think red point instance, long enough
and you will see a red flame, and then a
(10:05):
green flame, and then a yellow flame or any and
then you get to the point where you can see
any color you want. Then both you and the flame
have become one with the golden radiance the consciousness of
the cosmic Munir, says Sir Han would also stare at
(10:25):
his own reflection in the bathroom mirror for long periods
of time, that fish weight, the candle, the mirror. They
were all various practices of self hypnosis. Then one day
sir Han asked Munir for a favor. But at some
point he it became clear that he wanted to buy
(10:46):
a gun, right, yeah, yeah, he asked you. Yeah. I
didn't think thinking. I didn't think anything of it. There
wasn't a connection between guns and death in my mind
at the time. You know that I took him, you know,
to be like a sporty, sporty first, more for sports
than for committing crimes. Muneer found a friend at work
who would sell sir Hanna gunn and so in early
(11:07):
nineteen sixty eight, sir Han sir Han became the owner
of an eighth shot Ivan Johnson Cadet Model twenty two
caliber revolver. Muonier didn't really think about that gun again
until the morning of June fifth, nineteen sixty eight, when
he arrived at his job as a security guard and
(11:29):
Nash's department store. The employee lounge was full and the
TV was blaring. Los Angeles Senator Robert f Kennedy was shot.
The senator is now undergoing brain surgery. When I looked
at everybody, they were all looking at the TV. So
I glanced over at the TV. This is a man
(11:49):
who was apprehended at the scene immediately after Senator Kennedy
was shot. Bloom beholds, Yeah, it looks like my brother.
He has refused to give any information about himself, even
his identity. I said, no way, let's let's see this
fellow again. We've got that picture over there now and
he is somebody must know him. Yep, that's that's sir.
(12:18):
Munia raced home to pick up his brother Adele, and
they drove to the police station. I said, the person
that they're showing on TV, I thinks a brother who
shot the senator. That's that's how he verified the fact
that was ser now being held by Los Angeles police
in connection with the Kennedy shooting. He is twenty four
year old Sihn Siroon mother and I went up to
(12:40):
see him the cell. It was so gloomy. We asked, sir,
you know what happened? What's this all about? Tell us
I don't remember. I don't remember, and then I asked him,
and then you know, he looked he you know, it's
just it's like you're asking me again. They're like, why
are you asking me again? I just answered you and
(13:02):
I don't remember. So he had no recollection. No oh
no murder, No no, no, murder, murder. Does it click
right bars the incident or the you know what happened
at night? There's a little I don't believe sir Han
is capable of murder. Murder didn't click right from Munir,
(13:26):
But the cops were about to find something in sir
Han's room that made it clear to them that murder
had been on his mind. Police searched the premises this
morning found a notebook in the suspect room mentioning the
quote necessity to assassinate Senator Kennedy, in which he iterated
and reiterated r FK must die, r F Kennedy must
(13:48):
be assassinated, assassinated, assassinated. Sir Han had written at the
top of one page, my determination to eliminate RFK is
becoming more the more of an unshakable obsession. Despite his
claims of not remembering the crime, here in his own
handwriting was evidence that he'd been planning to murder Robert Kennedy,
(14:16):
and those diaries that those writings, and you will admit,
don't look good, do they. You realize that they definitely
indicate that you wanted to kill Kennedy before he was killed.
You realize that I do now. These are tape recorded
jailhouse sessions between Sir Han Sir Han and doctor Seymour Pollock,
(14:37):
a psychiatrist hired by the lada's office to evaluate Sir
han sanity. They're a little hard to hear, but as
you'll see, they're worth it. Everybody has crazy ideas, and
I think that what you wrote in the diary those great,
those crazy ideas. Sir Han explains to doctor Pollock that
he doesn't remember writing in his notebook. Why don't you
(15:00):
remember writing these things? These things are part of here.
It is not Sir Hann, it isn't me. I'm not
a killer, Sir He told doctor Pollock that though he
didn't remember writing the threatening words, he did remember being
angry at Kennedy. Then heeled and a hero and I
(15:26):
worked for him. He failed me, he betrayed me, betray there,
he failed me. He betrayed me. Senator Kennedy, you have
branch ined our commitment to Israel, and of course many
people think that the Middle East will be the next
great powder keg and bring the next great confrontation between
the East and West. Senator Kennedy, you this past week
(15:47):
proposed that we send fifty jet fighters to Raeltes fathom jet.
Do you think that's why you wrote down in the
diary Kennedy instant at the time, I get, yes, yeah,
why don't you remember writing this? The thing that bothers
me and said, you say you don't even remember any
(16:08):
part or anything you've written? There another single damn thing.
Obviously really maybe maybe maybe I am crazy, right, I
don't know. That's it. There was lily, but brilliant. I
can't explain. I can't explain it. Doctor Pollock gave up
(16:33):
on trying to get Sir Han to remember writing about
killing Kennedy in his notebook and began to explore the
shooting itself. The reason I'm interested in you're remembering is
that I am hopeful, but the more you remember, the
more able I'll be to understand what went on that's
(16:55):
coming up after the break in my opinion, Sir Am,
I don't think you have any chance. I really don't.
I don't the jury listening will be negative, right, I
(17:18):
positive to you if you don't remember. Doctor Seymour Pollock
is sitting with sir Han sir Han in his jail cell.
He's been hired by the lada's office to evaluate sir
han sanity. Sir Han had said he didn't remember shooting Kennedy,
and doctor Pollock wanted to find out how much about
that day he did remember. Now, I don't want it
(17:40):
to fake. I don't want you to make up anything,
but I do know. The more clear this whole thing
is the better defense you will have. But he just
didn't fet when I look at that, there's any other
sny pools that are unexplainable, such as why could you
give me? Could you eithermize the points that are unexplainable
(18:03):
range that my whole going to the range that day
was unexplainable. Sir Han tells doctor Pollock that on June fourth,
nineteen sixty eight, he signed into a gun range around
eleven am. He was seen shooting there until the range
closed around five, Then he headed to Bob's Big Boy,
(18:25):
where he had a burger and a coffee. He then
tells doctor Pollock that he drifted downtown looking for something
to do and heard about a big party happening on
Wilsher Boulevard. All right, now, you remember walking down Wilshar
Baulevard and then you got to the Ambassador Hotel. Sir
Han arrived at the Ambassador Hotel around eight pm. All
(18:46):
were you drinking at that time? That's where you bought
the letter. Sir Han says he had a few cocktails
and wandered around the hotel. He tried to talk to
a hostess, but she blew him off, so he decided
to drive home. All right, do you remember walking back
to account I remember getting into MinC Remember getting into Minco.
(19:06):
You do remember getting into your car? And I wasn't
gonna go home? Go home? Oh home? Okay? So why
didn't you go home? I was drunk, Doc, I couldn't
getting my heel from drying that. I couldn't get myself
to drive that car. So Sir Han tells doctor Pollock
that to sober up, he went to look for coffee.
(19:26):
He wanted to get coffee. Apparently you then picked up
the gun and walked back from the car to the hotel.
Because obviously he wasn't killed with your finger. O. But
you have no recollection at all picking up the gun.
(19:47):
What do you remember when you got back in the
after you've had some coffee. I was joking, my choking,
I was choking. Now what I think I have my home?
Oh you're after the shooting? Yeah, I said, And you
didn't know that you were, Jock Kennedy. I didn't know
(20:10):
you get my plane? You're you're making a big to
do about You're not remember bring? Is it? You're not remember? Bring?
Is going to mean something to the jury? Talk on me?
I damn find what you did and appears to be
something that you knew what you were doing. Do you
get my plant? Doctor Pollock went over and over this
(20:30):
and he couldn't get Sirhan to fill in the gap
between having coffee before Kennedy was shot and being choked
by the crowd afterwards. How did you carry a gun
from your car back to um the Ambassador Hotel and
not know that you had it? Hoppy? You happy to
do that, but you kind of tell me that you
(20:51):
could carry again without knowing you hadn't or did you
think it wasn't there a sauce? Doctor Pollock had hit
a dead end. And while comparing notes with the psychiatrist
hired by Sir hans defense team, he found that the
defense psychiatrist had hit the same dead end too. This
(21:14):
was doctor Pollock February one, nineteen sixty nine, with the
Sir Hans Sir hand interviewed by doctor Diamond. The defense
team's chief psychiatrist was doctor Bernard Diamond, and he had
an idea about how to unlock Sir Hans memory. Now one, two, three,
(21:36):
four five. You heard a little bit of this tape
in episode one Very night. Doctor Diamond puts Sir Han
into a hypnotic state and gives him a notebook and
a pencil. Sir, all in your eyes, brought up at
the top of the page. I want you to write
(21:58):
about Cannon, he writes, RF came must die, RF came
must die, RF came must die, the same phrase that
was scrawled over and over in that notebook found in
his room right where. You're hypnotized when you wrote the
note book? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes yes. Sir Han
(22:21):
writes that he was hypnotized when he wrote his notebook.
Who hypnotized you sure have when you wrote the book?
Who hypnotized you? Write his name? Down a m all
r C A m O r C. Ancient mystical order
(22:47):
Rose Crucis after rolls, a Crucian said, why doesn't sir
ours you may now open your eyes every time you
try the extra sizes. You further developed the various planes
of your consciousness. Doctor Diamond and doctor Pollock probe deeper
(23:11):
and takes her Han back to the night of the assassination.
You're at the Ambassador hortawn. You're at the Kennedy receptions.
Your man I've probably picked her in your mind the scenes.
You're back. You had four PM calls, Remember that you
(23:31):
were guddling that stuff like lemonade and you went out
to your call. Your toop wrote to drive, viously picked
up the gun. Don't you remember picking up the gun?
All right? Now let's get unconfused. So now you picked
up the gun where you put the gun in your
pop under your armpits where your waistband. Sir Han doesn't respond,
(23:56):
all right. Now you're back at the party. You're ramber
being back to Harty. You're remember you get called black
coffee greening by sugar going what Coffey's don't a big
big silver all right? The right thing? Silver and big
(24:16):
silver pocketing in the coffee is there talk what I
thought it was, doctor, but it was everyone went there
than you. Huhm. I remember lying on the table and
(24:38):
twisting m You know it was some was joke. Ho
ho oh wait you skip something. You skipped a lot
the joke because I think happens. You're added a lot
there and your back, Doctor Diamond tries again already. Wow,
(25:02):
thanks to all of you, and how it's on to
Chicago and let's win the you're you're in the kitchen there,
you're standing in the corner and lots of people around,
a lot of noise, and you see Kennedy coming. And
what do you see, sir? It's mhm he's running. They're
(25:30):
running at you, after you? Who's running at you? Open
your eyes? You look at Kennethy. Dad, I order you
to look at him. Open your eyes. Yeah, I look
at him. You must remember what do you see? M
hm hm hm The son of a bitch? What that's
(26:00):
son of the bitch is coming? What do you see
he doing? Why? What's he doing? What's he doing here?
Go on, you son of a bitch. You said, Sarah,
why he can't he can't do what you can't do
what he can't, Sam the bomber. You're not going to
(26:26):
let him. Onya Sid saying did you know that Kennedy
was coming this way? Yes? Or no? No? But you
see him now he's coming side and going down the hall.
Look at him, said I open your eyes. Why do
you come on? Look at him? And he went on soccer, Yeah,
(26:49):
go on. You in for the gun, Sail. Are you
going to stop him, Saran? Are you going to stop Unran?
(27:11):
Look at Kennedy. Reach for your god, Sarahan, its your
last chance, sarahm reach for it, San, reach for your gun.
But the rat he is reaching spasmodically into the waistband
of his pants on his left side. You've got the
gun in your hand. Now let me see you shoot
the gun, Sarah, and shoot the gun. This Fringers are
(27:34):
going to the just dosmonic movements like pulling your twigar.
You're shooting Kennedy now, huh, Rods and Sars. Such exercises
of reaching into the cosmic and your own being may
bring fruitful results in a marriage. Seconds been shot? Is
(27:54):
that possible? Oh my god? If the cosmic atoment is accomplished,
great illumination as inspiration and in two ofive ideas will
be your reward. Sarah, I'm opened their eyes. Are they're
choking you? Saran? Oh, all right, Sa, they're not really choking.
(28:24):
It's all right, Sa, They're not really choking him. Now
I'll count to three and you wake up. Remember it
all you understand, Siran San. Can you hear doctor Pollock
talking to you? Listen to doctor Pollock. You'll remember all
of these things. You'll remember them exactly what you did, clearly,
(28:46):
how you felt, how angry you were, what was going on.
You'll remember all of this and you won't be worried,
and you won't be frightened. You've got a lot of
bad feelings out of you with doctor Sarah. And then
we want to help you. We're junior Sharon, but we
want to help you. Now. I'll count the three and
(29:07):
you wake up one, two, three, wake up, shake up,
wake up mom too, three, open your eyes. Sir Han
comes out of the trance. The first thing sir Han
asks is if the doctors think he's crazy? So what, Oh,
(29:28):
I don't think he's rash? And do you remember what
you tell us n It was to help you? Remember
do you remember what you telling us how to remember
its wild? Yeah, I know, but it'll come back. You
remember that, you son of a bitch, You son of
a bitch. I remember that. Who was the son of
(29:50):
a bitch? M You don't remember Kennedy? Here? You can
see Kennedy coming towards You see him. Kennedy is coming
towards you. And you said you saw the bitch and
(30:10):
you were lying with angers. You see Kennedy coming out.
You got the god. You remember where you told us
where the gun was? I don't remember five minutes ago
there and you showed me where the gun was. A
point to me where the gun was. The gun was
(30:32):
right here, right there in your belt. And you reach
for the gods? I mean you showed us right. I
reached for the god, root for it. I didn't reach
for my gun yet you've got in your reach. You
showed it. You reached in there and you showed it
how you pulled the triper. I remember. And this is
(30:57):
tough to remember. Oh not crazy. You've been very bad
and make up for mind. You can't remember them. But
no one gotta call your crazy. Nobody's got to put
you in a crazy now? Was that what you wanted
(31:19):
us to remember it. I don't. I don't give a
damn what you think. Seriously, I'm not crazy. This hypnosis
session and sir Han's inability to remember it, seemed to
bring to light his greatest fear about himself, that he
(31:40):
might be mentally ill. But mental illness would also become
his lawyer's best and only defense of him. The hypnosis
session was proof enough to them that sir Han had
not been in his right mind when he shot Robert Kennedy,
that he had done it in a state of diminished capacity.
In essence, they planned to tell the world that there
(32:02):
wasn't much behind the assassination of Robert Kennedy other than
a sick mind. When sir Han learned this, he asked
if he could plead guilty. Instead, the judge denied him.
Following the hypnosis session, doctor Pollock meets with Sir Han
alone in his cell three more times to finish his evaluation.
(32:23):
In the last of these sessions, reimagined Sir Han seems
to emerge. See I didn't show the man's I shot Kenny.
I told you that we'll killing a human being. I
told you I'd gladly go to the change. I'll gladly little,
but we'll killing Kennedy's I'm guilty, no one, no way
(32:45):
do I feel any guilt because he's just as much
a killer as as Hitler was. Everybody wants to have
me head justice. Why didn't they catch him? Sim And
he said that he was going to give those fifty
bombers swill. That's John guy up There is mass murder
up there, you Potama, Well, he's because the hours of
(33:07):
being milder. That's your philosophy in fuck them, that's your
philosophy in America. Behind people, mister bull the people not
with me, sir they are my people, mister Pollock, they
are my people. Well who collected? I want you to
tell that to the jury for me. The Arab Israeli
(33:32):
situation is now a key issue in the trial. Today,
for the first time, sir Han sir Han told his
version of the murder of Robert Kennedy. He told it
in a performance ranging from anger and defiance to a
kind of calm humility. He cursed the late senator, saying
Kennedy had betrayed in by urging the sale of US
jets to Israel. That was when he wrote in his
notebooks about assassinating the senator. Doctor Pollock took the stand.
(33:57):
The prosecution's key witness, a psychiatry from the University of California,
said flatly today that sir Han knew what he was
doing when he shot Senator Kennedy. At no time, he said,
could he find any evidence that sir Han suffered from delusions,
and he'd break with reality. Doctor Pollock told the world
that sir Han sir Han was not crazy. He is
not crazy or psychotic, though he had met it. He
(34:18):
was obsessed with hatred for Israel and hatred for Kennedy.
At this time, Sir Hann was very pleased with doctor
Pollock's testimony. He told one of his attorneys, see he
thinks I'm fine. And then doctor Pollock revealed one last
surprising detail that had come out during his sessions with
(34:41):
sir Han. There were people in the pantry who have not,
to my knowledge, been to the present time completely identified.
Under hypnosis. Sir Han had said someone was with him
in the pantry line. That's enough, you'll do. You don't
have to write it over and over again. When anybody
(35:04):
with you when you shot, yes, yes, yes, Now write
the name of a person who was with you when
you shot Kennida, write the name of the other person
who was with you. Write it down, Sarah, write the girl,
(35:24):
the girl, the girl. Do you know the girl's name?
Write out the name of the girl. Next week, Bill
and I go see about a girl from San Louise.
(36:10):
Grimetown is me Zach Stewart Pontier and Mark Smirling. The
RFK Tapes is made in partnership with Cadence thirteen. This
episode was produced by Jesse Rudoy with help from Bill Claibur,
Ula Kulpa and Ryan Murdoch. Austin Mitchell is our senior producer.
Editing by Mark Smirling, fact checking by Jennifer Blackman. This
(36:33):
episode was mixed, sound designed and scored by Kenny Kusiak.
Additional music by John Quciak So The Doctors. Our theme
song is Maria Tambien by Krumman. Our credit track this
week is Doctor Solution by Dorin Danoff. Music supervision by
(36:56):
Josh Kessler and Dylan Bostick at Heavy Duty Projects. Archival
footage courtesy of NBC News and PACIFICA Radio Archives. Archival
research by Brennan Reis. Production assistants by Kevin Shephard. Our
website is designed by Kurt Courtney, thanks to Gene Claibur,
Emily Wiedemann, Greencard Pictures, Alessandro Santorro, Paul Schrade, Lorie Dusk,
(37:18):
Munir sir Han, and the team at Caden's Thirteen. For
more information on the Robert Kennedy Murder, pick up a
copy of Bill's book shadow Play from Saint Martin's Press.
You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter at
the RFK Tapes and if you like the show, please
(37:39):
consider leaving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts
or wherever you listen. For bonus content, check out our
website RFKA tapes dot com. This week you can see
pages of Sir Hans sir Han's diary. Thanks, see you
next week. M HM
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