[8] I Wanted to Solve This F*cking Murder

Investigative journalist Dan Moldea begins a quest to try to find evidence of a second gun in the pantry of the Ambassador Hotel… by talking to the cops who were there that night.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
I just wanted to call and touch base with you. Yeah,
thanks a lot. I appreciate this. I'm sitting here just
working on this stuff right now. This is a phone
call from almost thirty years ago between our own Bill
Klaiber and an investigative journalist named Dan Will Danny, So
you know there, give a call. I just talked to
him because I'm still trying to figure this guy damn
thing out. I just what are you working on? My book,

(00:21):
The World of RFK Assassination conspiracy Researchers was a small one,
and Bill and Dan were both working on books about
the case. I still can't figure the Dan thing. Yeah,
well nowadays I mentioned if Dan's name will trigger a
lighthearted joke from Bill about how he went over to
the dark side or how am I talking to him?
Is like sleeping with the enemy. Okay, And if there's

(00:43):
anything you need, you have my number. Give me a buzz,
thanks a lot, Okay, right, talk to you Dan. That's
because Dan ended up with a very different theory about
what happened in the case. It certain parts of this
case we're just nonsense. The polka dot dress girl to
me is nonsense. The hip book program thing it's nonsense.
I think there's a simple explanation for every single thing

(01:04):
that happened today. On the RFK tapes, we followed Dan
Moldea's journey to a simple explanation. It's actually pretty complicated.
I'm Zack start Pontier. You understand, back in those days,

(01:25):
I was. I was a bad motherfucker back then. I'm
not so bad anymore, But when I was younger, I
was a bad motherfucker. I met up with Dan Moldea
at a restaurant in Washington, d C. But how did
you get on the RFK case? How did I get
on it? Yeah, I come from the world of the mafia,
that's my expertise. I was doing a book on Reagan

(01:46):
and the mob, and I was living in Los Angeles.
Well day. I had written extensively about organized crime, even
managing to get murder confessions from some of the people
he'd interview. I was I was afraid of nothing. I
would get in guy's faces. I don't do that anymore.
In the mid eighties, Maldeo was contacted by a group

(02:07):
of researchers who were convinced that there had been two
guns firing in the kitchen pantry of the Ambassador Hotel.
They need one, an investigative journalist to come in and
do something that would break open the files that had
been sealed in the city of Los Angeles for all
these years, and so they thought of me. They gave

(02:30):
me a very persuasive argument that the LAPD had had
destroyed material evidence, they had misrepresented key facts in the case.
You know that Kennedy wasn't in the right position when
Searhan shot him, that nobody had seen the gun get
closer than a foot away from Kennedy's head, when clearly
Thomas Nagucci's autopsy, which nobody disputes everyone agrees to Thomas

(02:53):
Nagucci's autopsy was brilliant. Clearly the shots came from you know,
point blank range, contact range. So that was troublesome. And
then there was the talk of extra bullets seen in
photos of the kitchen pantry door frames. The problem was
that Searhand has an h shot revolver. All eight shots
have been accounted for, three shots Kennedy a one bullet

(03:16):
taken out of each of the five victims. I'm not
a ballistics expert or a FIREMS identification expert. I don't
know a Land from her groove. But I could tell
you this, An h shot revolver can't fire more than
eight bullets that I know well. Daya took a look
at the evidence and wrote a feature article for a

(03:38):
local DC magazine, and so I went through all of
these issues, muzzle distance, extra bullets, basically alleging the very
real possibility that there was a second gun in that room.
Then I was really kicking up the conspiracy. At the time,
I was doing a lot of television. There was no
way that searhand shooting this far away, I could have

(03:59):
fired the fatal shots when he's facing Kennedy. And I
was getting a lot of attention for this. So who
killed Robert Kennedy? Damn thinks the question is still Unansweredly
Noah Land from a groove, But I do know this,
and eight shot revolver can't fire more than eight bullets,
and Harry have the Federal Bureau of Investigation and then
today California officials released thousands of pages of documents and

(04:21):
photographs which constituted evidence in the case. As a result
of my article, the City of Los Angeles forced the
release of the LAPDS files, fifty thousand documents collected by
the Los Angeles police after the murder of Robert Kennedy,
nearly three thousand photographs and film of the police investigation
sier Hans Sierhan's notebook. In April of nineteen eighty eight,

(04:42):
the case file was unsealed, photos, documents, interviewed, transcriptions, and
many of the audio recordings that you've heard on this show.
This was the moment it was all finally available to
the public. With all this new information available, well, DAYA
decided to write a book. My proposal guaranteed that I
was going to show that there were two guns fired

(05:03):
at the crime scene and that see, your hand was
not the person who killed Robert Kennedy. And in the
case file, well they have found a new angle to explore.
I didn't know who the cops were. None of us did,
and so when I got the list of cops who

(05:24):
were part of the crime scene investigation, I decided to
pick up the phone and start calling him. I had
a restaurant or the cops liked. A cop took me
there one time and he told me this is kind
of where guys like to comfort nice lodge. We have
a stick starwish salmons typical southern California like steakhouse kind

(05:45):
of place. Reminded me like of a hunting lodge or something.
Inside it was a manly man place, and so I
would usually invite guys there. I would have a steak
sandwich place, and I just think I'll have the shrimp salad.
And Dave Butler was one of the people I invited there.
Officer David Butler worked the crime scene at the Ambassador
Hotel on the night Robert Kennedy was killed. Well day,

(06:06):
I wanted to know if Officer Butler remembered seeing any bullets.
How was the crime scene when you first came to it?
Described the scene literally, I got there. I got there
around four two in the morning. And what was going
on when you arrived? So a lot please personnel. I
was struck by the amount of people. There were just
droves of people and it was just the ball room

(06:29):
was still criving in the confusion, a lot of confusion.
Excuse me? Were you just struck by the history of
what you were in the midst of at that point?
And I was a Craney. I've been in the laugh
of all of the league, Okay, because my first crime scene, okay,
and of course, I'm I don't want to make mistakes.
I don't want to miss evidence because everything's totally unknown,

(06:49):
basically going into basically the first order of businesses to
locate and identify all the evidence that we can see
label photographic market measure and the tape recorders right there
on the table. So it was what I wasn't concealing anything.
I had him on the hook, and so I decided
to reel him in. Well, who would be responsible for
like taking like two bullets out of the wall or something?

(07:11):
We are our unit, and he gave me what I needed.
Do you recall who took the two bullets out of
the wall that night? To Wayne Wolfer? Dwayne Wolfer was
an LAPD criminalist assigned to the case. So then the
bullets that Wolf took him out of the wall would
be the just the ones like in the center divider there, Yes,
those are the ones changed. So he did investigate those

(07:32):
other holes, but it was the center the buyer holes
where he took out the bullet. Right, were you there
when he took those bullets out? Dave Butler blew my
mind where he said he actually saw that remove the bullets. Yeah,
when you're talking to him, he seems to not really
understand what the relevance of what he's telling. The first
inter of you, he absolutely did not understand irrelevant, And
I held my poker face and kept him talking. Yeah,

(07:56):
we're not sure. Were you there when he took the
bullets right out of th center? Divided? Do you just
tear it out? And then, because we've got pictures of
it torn out? What do you just tear it out?
Tear it out to assemble to find the bullets? You
assembled it and found the bullets right like you saw
them digging that. Okay, I believe me. I thought I
made history that day. Yeah, that was the evidence that

(08:17):
we are looking for. I thought I proved that there
were two guns in the room. But from all DAYA,
the search for answers didn't stop with Officer Butler. I
had identified I think it was one hundred and eighty
some cops who were part of that, and then I
ended up interviewing one hundred and fourteen, sometimes in person,

(08:38):
u sometimes over the phone. I would sometimes ambush these
people at their house. I would go to their house
and ambush them. I went to these guys and I
asked them two basic questions, what did you do? What
did you see? There were a lot of the cops
who said, yeah, I saw bullet holes there identified and
so I used that for my next story for the

(09:01):
Washington Post. Well Daa published an article in The Washington
Post where he laid out many of the police accounts
he'd collected. Patrolman Al Lameaux told Moldea, I do recall
seeing one or two holes in the door around wherever
he had shot at him. It was just obvious, just
being a dumb cop. You look and see where the

(09:21):
bullets went. LAPD photographer Charles Collier told Moldea, a bullet
hole looks like a bullet hole if you photo. Sergeant
James R. MacArthur told Maldea that he had seen quite
a two bullet albin s. Heggie said, I know that
there were some because they took out door. Raymond M.
Roland told Maldea that during a tour of the pantry,

(09:43):
one of the investigators pointed to a hole in the
door frame and said, we just pulled a bullet out
of here. I was at a party and Ben Bradley
came up to me. Ben Bradley was the executive editor
of the Washington Post. Put his hand on my shoulder
and he just looked at me and he said, good job,
and he walked away. When I heard all this from Moldea,

(10:12):
I knew what I had to do. I had to
find a police officer who was at the Ambassador Hotel
that night and convinced him to talk to me. It
wasn't going to be easy, but I could be a
bad motherfucker like Dan Moldea. I could ambush a guy
in front of his house. I could do whatever it
takes her love Hi, honey, I'm not familiar with podcast,

(10:33):
so but as it turned out, I just needed to
talk to my friend's mom. Her name's Renee Kadner. I
was staying at her house in Los Angeles, went over dinner.
She said that she'd been at the Ambassador Hotel the
night Kennedy was killed. What do you remember, people were
saying they killed him. They killed him, so we thought
he lost the election. We said, well, let's go back

(10:54):
upstairs and see what's going on. So as we started
up the stairs, we saw two police officers with the
guy between them. And as we got closer, you know,
we realized that the police officer lived with my friend Paul.
He was one of his roommates, and so we go, Danny, Hi,

(11:16):
what's going on? And I was so close to Sir
h and I could have reached out and touched him
and Danny. Danny said we can't talk now. I'll tell
you later and continued down the stairs, so Paul and
I followed them. Renee hadn't spoken to her friend's roommate
Danny in decades, but she said she tried to find
him for me. So I looked at I googled and

(11:39):
there was a Danny Jensen, but I wasn't sure it
was the right one. So I phoned and I went
to a message service. So I just said, Hi, Danny,
this is Renee, and I you know, I said, I'm
sure you remember me. And now if this is the
right Danny, please call me back. And if it's not
the right Danny called me back so I can looking.

(12:04):
But so then what I remember is like the next day,
you came into the room and you had the phone
and you just handed to me and you said it's Danny.
I talked to Danny, and boy did he have a
story to itself. Renee's friend Danny after the break, thank
you so much, Renee for the help. I really appreciate it.

(12:26):
You're well, come, I'll talk to the neighbored I lived in.
You you either going to be a cop or a
fireman or a priest. But I'm not much of a
priest and fires scare me. This is Daniel Jensen in
nineteen sixty eight. He was a twenty one year old
rookie cop with the Los Angeles Police Department and he

(12:47):
remembers the day of the California Primary very well. There's
been a lot of friction that day between LAPD and
the Kennedy people. Can you say a little more about that, Um,
what kind of friction? Well, we were told that day
a roll call, you know, before the event, that the

(13:09):
Kennedy people are in town and they didn't want anything
associated with LAPD because of the bad reputation LAPD had
with the African American community. And why did the LAPD
What was their beef with Kennedy? He was a Democrat.
You have to understand, this is in the sixties at

(13:29):
Los Angeles Police Department. In public, you couldn't call a
black person the N word. They just referred to him
as Democrats. And that was one of the worst insults
you could make of someone, you'd call him a democrat,
and that was the code word for other derogatory terms.

(13:49):
According to Jensen, Kennedy and his staff decided to spend
their time in Los Angeles without the help of the LAPD,
and they didn't want any Los ange just cops around them,
none uniform or non uniform. They declined the VIP protection
and even declined motorcycle escort from the airport to the hotel.

(14:11):
So LAPD, this is what I was told, and guys
laughed about it because we're talking about a roll call.
The LAPD motorcycle officers then lined up from the airport
to the Ambassador Hotel at all the red lights and
as that motorcaid came through and LAPD was pulling them
over and give them citations for running red lights. And
this is the morning, he was Yeah, this is the
morning of the that he gets right assassinated. Wow, yeah,

(14:36):
first Ambassador Hotel. They have an emergence. They want the
police to the kitchen runaway. What's kind of an emergency,
I don't know, they hung up. I don't know what
we'll find out. We don't send out. We have to
know what we're sending on or how they want. So
I don't know. I'll run. You know, we have a

(15:00):
Kennedy here. What happened? But I think somebody was shot?
Oh great, great, we just come on duty and we
went up your Wilshire boulevard when radio said that they
had shots fired reporting that Kennedy has been shot at

(15:21):
the Ambassador all available yet it's maybe at the real
parking lot. I'll be Ambassador hotel, and so I responded,
oh yeah, it down. It was a big hotel and

(15:46):
I've never been to the Ambassador and we were directed
to the kitchen area and when we got in neard
you could hear the streaming and yelling. There was my gosh,
close to one hundred people in this somewhat restricted area.
It was kind of it was. It was a mess.

(16:11):
People were yelling and screaming and the cops were having
a hard time and it was a lot of shoving.
Shan is still on the ground being handcuffed, and the
other officers got him up and then four of us

(16:33):
walked Sorhan Sorehan now threatness. He described from the l
twenty five to twenty six five short guys light Jil
wearing a blue jacket, blue leavines and blue penna. It's
the weapon used with the cru He was very quiet.

(16:54):
I didn't say one word. I remember looking at him,
glancing back at him. He had to calmness with this
almost like a half smile on his face, and he
never said a thing. And then we marched him out.
And then as we got to the street, it was
it was a mess all over again. People are screaming
and yelling. I guess the word had got out what

(17:16):
had happened after early ambassador and they had just taking
the stuff backed away. Here and here a old a
crowd of farming trying to capture the prison. There, I'll
let you know, there was a car there with two
officers waiting right there at the doorway. And we went

(17:36):
to shove Sorehan into the car, and some young kid
tried to jump over the top of me to get
it Soran Sorehan, And as he came over the top
of me, I just pushed him a little bit higher,
so then over the top of the patrol car and
slid it on the other side. And then the patrol
car had a little bit of problem getting out and
we had to clear people out of the way so

(17:58):
the patrol car could get the heck out of there,
because it was it was pretty wild. Four years rising puications,
They have a wow and then what'd you so, what'd

(18:22):
you do after that? Well, you know, went back on patrol.
We had the rest of the night to work, and
work in the mid midnight shift. You know what, we
knew it was a big deal. Got a court order
within a day or two that we were not allowed
to talk to anybody about it. We weren't allowed to
discuss it with anyone of any of the events witnessed

(18:42):
that night. We were to give no statements to the press.
And that was my first and last. Had never happened before.
That was it. They kept everything very confidential. Any sense
of why that would have been done avoid criticism on
a bunch of people like me talking about a second
gun and too many bullet holes and you know, things

(19:04):
of that nature. Do they christ we're going to start
another conspiracy here? And the next night at roll call,
Remember this is just a bunch of cops sitting around
talking and that's when the discussion came up of the
second gun. So what do you remember hearing? Just remember

(19:26):
they found like one or two many bullet holes. The
guy had a twenty two and it was a seven
shot or nine shot, but there were too many bullet holes,
and you don't reload a revolver in a situation like that.
Sir Hans gun held eight shots. Oh, that makes sense,
So that means that I think then if they had eight,

(19:48):
then they found ten. The way I recall, there was two.
There were too too many bullet holes. But you remember,
I'm hearing all this stuff locker room talk, and one
of the other officers had noted that the security guard
had a twenty two, which is an unusual gun to carry.
Sit down on the other side, and the cops started speculating,

(20:13):
you know what, but he kept off some realms. What
is your name, Caesar? Yes, there, and the guys were
all laughing about it because they just thought it was funny.
Probably the security guard capped off a couple of rounds
when the shooting started. Okay, what's your first name, Janny.
This is an LAPD witness interview from the night of

(20:34):
the assassination with Thane Eugene Caesar. You're a special officer
employed by HAASE Guards from Safe Guard Service retire to
night was quiet job. Did you tell us what you
saw and what you did tonight? Caesar tells the cops

(20:54):
that after Kennedy left the stage, he took Kennedy by
the arm and led him through the kitchen pantry. At
that time, I was right behind him all the way
down to where the steam table was, And just as
he got to the steam table, I was up to
him where I had a hold of his arm here
and I was pushing people at my other arm. You

(21:15):
were on the which side of it. I was on
his right side, his right side, and at that moment,
he had reached out and sort of turned to shake
hands with somebody. Now, at that time, I just hadn't
look up, and that's when I seen. All I could
see was an arm and a gun, and I reached
for mine. Caesar says he reached for his gun as

(21:40):
sir Han Sir Han began firing at the Senator. I
reached for mine, but it was too late. He'd done
fired fire shots. And when he did, I ducked because
I was as close as Kennedy was, and from what
I can remember, from what I did, I grabbed for
the senator and fell back, and then the Senator fell
right down in front of me. The whole interview you
last about ten minutes, and the cops never asked to

(22:02):
see Caesar's gun or if he fired it. And despite
being one of the closest witnesses to Kennedy at the
time of the shooting and having one of the best
vantage points, Caesar was notably not asked to testify at
Sir Hans Sir Hans trial. Oh ready, okay, you're going
into similar returnment. I am. I don't know about anybody

(22:22):
else down this Jeane Caesar guy. He had a gun
in his hand and powder burns on his face. In
the eighties, when Dan Maulday I heard about Caesar, he
thought he'd found his guy. I thought he did it.
I really did. Accidentally maybe, but he did it, although

(22:46):
I'll say I could shoot somebody three times by accident.
Basically he was under the radar screen. So I made
it my mission to go after Caesar. So I was
ready to spend every day going after this guy. I
wanted to find him, and so I called the DA's
office in la and I talked to some assistant DA

(23:07):
over there. I forget who it was, and he told
me that Caesar was dead. But Caesar had done an
interview with the journalist soon after the shooting. Is there
any chance that that gun could have gone off? My gun? Yeah?
And the only way we would have come off is
I'd have pulled the trigger because the hammer wasn't cocked.
It wouldn't have been something where I'd have slipt on
the trigger. It wouldn't have been that easy. You'd have

(23:28):
had to put pressure against the trigger and pull it.
And then he started talking politics. I'm not a Democrat. Now,
who did you vote for in November? Wall Hardney for
George Wallace. George Wallace was the former governor of Alabama
who was notorious for his adamant opposition to desegregation and
the civil rights movement. I definitely wouldn't have voted for

(23:51):
Barby Kennedy because he had the same ideas as John did.
And I think John sold the country down the road.
He gave it to the commies, he gave it to
whoever she wanted to. He gave it. He literally gave
it to the minority. The black man now to the
last four to eight years has been cramming this integrated
idea down our throat. And so you've learned to hate him,
and one of these days we're going to fight back.

(24:14):
First of all, I think the white man is going
to try and do it with his voting car. And
if they can't do it by getting the right person,
industry the thing, then he's going to take it in
his own hands. I can't see any other way to go.
And so I started to do a public records check
on him to see whether I could find an air
or find a spouse or a relative or a will.

(24:39):
And then I found him. I found that this guy
was alive and well and so well. Day I went
to meet Caesar in his lawyer's office for an interview.
Caesar's sitting in a chair against the wall and I'm
seated in between, and I got three tape recorders on amazing.

(25:02):
Let me let me. Let me just tell you that
I'm not a familiar with any law enforcement agents, police,
FBI and that stuff. Anytime you want to go off
the record, just tell me and I'll turn to all
the taple. I was dressed completely in black black jack.
I looked like the prince of fucking darkness that day.
You shown be a lot of respect by let me
have this interview. And we've been talking. This is history here,

(25:23):
We're talking to history here. I've gotten murder confessions in
my past. I've gotten two previous ones, and this one
I thought I was gonna get. This is gonna be
my third and biggest. I'm gonna have minimal questions about
your personal politics because you look real bad. It's about
the Wallace business and it wasn't ashamed of what I said.
I still like Wallace. I'm still vote for Wallace. Wallace

(25:45):
had a lot of good ideas. I've never cared for
the Democrats from since since the Johnny F. Kennedy I
have no use for the Kennedy family, um, none of them.
I mean, I've read a lot of history on the
Kennedy family. I think they're the biggest bunch of crooks
everyone walked to turn and I'm not ashamed to say
it today. I mean, I wanted to solve this fucking murder.
I was ready to do whatever was necessary to solve

(26:08):
this fucking murder. I was going to break this motherfucker down,
and he was going to confess to me that he
killed Senator Kenning. Next week, the interview Crimetown is me

(26:38):
Zack Stewart Pontier and Mark Smirling. R Kate Tapes is
made in partnership with Cadence thirteen. The show is produced
by Jesse Rudoy, Bill klaiber, Ula Kulpa and Max Miller.
Austin Mitchell is our senior producer, editing by Mark Smirling,
fact checking by Jennifer Blackman. This episode was mixed and

(27:01):
sound designed by Sam Baer, with the score by Kenny
Kusiak and additional music by John Kusiak. Our title track
is Maria Tambien by Krumben. Our credit track this week
is Revolucionando by Rostiedies. Music supervision by Josh Kessler and
Dylan Bostick at Heavy Duty Projects. We had recording help

(27:24):
this week from Shawn Cherry, Shelby Royston, Marcus Stern, and
the crew at Tony Kornheiser's Chatter Studio. Archival footage courtesy
of Dan Maldea, the University of Massachusetts at Dartmouth and
the California State Archives. Archival research by Brennan Reese. Production
assistants by Kevin Shephard. Our website is designed by Kurt

(27:46):
Courtney thanks to the Kadners, Emily Wiedemann, Green Card Pictures,
Alessandro Santoro, Ryan Murdoch, Paul Schreig, David Mendelssohn, Judith Ferrar,
Elizabeth benn and the team at Kate's Thirteen. For more
information on the Robert Kennedy murder, pick up a copy

(28:06):
of Dan's book, The Killing of Robert F. Kennedy. If
you like the RFK Tapes, please consider leaving us a
rating and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.
It really helps others find out about the show. You
can find us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at the
RFKA Tapes. For bonus content, visit our website rkatapes dot com. Thanks,

(28:34):
let's see you next week.