September 4, 2018 • 42 mins
Last week, Zac and Bill sat down in front of a live audience at The Bell House in Brooklyn. The show featured a heated debate between Bill and special guest Dan Moldea, plus musical performances by Rosaleen Eastman.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the RFK tapes live at the Bellhouse
in Guanas, Brooklyn. Thank you all. I'm not Zach or Bill.
I'm sorry. Yeah, thanks. My name is Austin. I'm the
senior producer of the RFKA tapes. Thank you so much
for coming. I'm about to introduce Zach and Bill, who
(00:26):
are going to discuss the final episode, and later they'll
be joined by investigative journalists Dan Muldea and Bill and
Dan will go head to head over their conflicting versions
of the RFK case. It's a split crowd. It wasn't
a conspiracy. I think police are incompetent. Oh, definitely, there's
(00:50):
some conspiracy that there's a lot of question marks. I
still think Sirhan Sirhan did it. I think there might
have been some CTE and maybe some mind manipulation that
goes along with it. I mean, there's too many coincidences
for me just to accept. Oh yeah, I think that
(01:12):
it is the resecutions, absolute mind control. People tend to
get a little lost in their own conspiracies and I
kind of just lean more towards the non conspiracy. I'm
surprised that Zach has changed his tune and I feel
like somebody got to him. You know, I think I
(01:33):
really believe the conspiracy theory. I think that Bill is
spreading the good word in the gospel. I think there's
an earnestness to Bill that makes you want to believe.
And I think there's an abrasiveness to Dan that makes
me not want to believe him. But ultimately, you know,
I think Dan's probably right. Cool. Hopefully we see some
(01:54):
sparks tonight. Hey, everybody, I'm Zach start Pontier, I'm Bill
Claiber and this is the IRFK Taps Live. Thanks for
(02:19):
common Well, hey, it's gonna be fun. It is. Um
So all of those comments that we were looking at
just now, those all came in the last twenty four
or thirty six hours or so. Yeah. So. Projected on
stage as the audience arrived were tweets and comments about
the final episode, ranging from a poetic meditation on our
(02:42):
need to find meaning in the chaos two Zach is
a total sellout. I love them. I love when you
were getting trashed you did, yeah, tell me more about that. Well,
you know, I love the ones that said, you know
that that Claibor guy wasn't allowed to really say what
he thought, you know, and you know, so it's a yeah,
have you heard from any any of our any of
(03:03):
our friends. Yeah, they're probably not my friends anymore. No, No,
I got at four thirty in the morning, I got
an email from a guy saying, what's going on? Well,
you know, Uh, I loved it. I said, please send
this message on to zach Um. So he did. Oh good.
Why did you think of the finale? Um? I didn't
(03:25):
like it. I didn't like it. I didn't think it. Um. Uh. Basically,
it just I felt like we left the labd off
the hook, you know. And it seems to me that
the best way to understand this case is really look
at their conduct, really look at what they did. And
I think we left a lot of that on the floor.
(03:46):
Where there are some things that you felt like we
should have done better in the show. Yeah, a bunch
of them. Um. We don't have a whole lot of time,
but I don't want to get into a few of them. Yeah. Um.
Just her hand's memory and motive, It appears from everything
(04:06):
that we know, his dealing with the psychiatrist being hypnotized
in the jail cell to his murder Knight interviews with
the police. The guy doesn't seem like he has any
idea of what he's doing, and of course eventually he
was tagged with, oh, he was a political assassin, he
did it to save his people or whatever. Is sure
(04:27):
didn't act it that night, so her hand doesn't seem
to have any idea that he did anything. He doesn't
know and that's what he said all along, And basically
I believe him in that. When you watch what happens
over the months before his trial, you see what becomes
a motive implant. Is that over and over again he
(04:49):
has handed the political motive. And since he doesn't know
why he did it, because he can't remember the crime
and doesn't remember planning the crime, he eventually has to
adopt a motive because he has to answer that question
just like anybody else does. So we adopts the political motive.
But I've never been convinced that that was a true motive,
because he's just didn't act like a political assassin that night.
(05:12):
He's his choice is either he's a crazy guy or
he's a hero to his people. And after a time,
any one of us might make that decision. Well, I'd
rather be a hero than a crazy guy. So, um,
that's something else we could have explored. All right, Well
you know what I would say, No, you say, go
(05:33):
ahead say it, say it. Well, I think with this
Sirhan thing, I think we spent a whole episode talking
about the motive implant. We just didn't use tape of
that night. We used a lot of hypno. I mean,
it was a whole It was one of my favorite episodes.
Shout out Jesse rudoay who did a great job on that.
(05:53):
All right, one more what do you think? What's one
more thing that you thought we could have done better?
We left a lot of stuff on the floor with
the called the girl in the puka at dress, but
it was the people seen with Sir hand the knight
of the murder. Now, if Sir Hann is walking around
with people with him that night and being let around
by this woman, something else is going on. And what
(06:15):
that's something else is we don't know. But the day
after the police broke Sandra Serrano, and she's the one
that first brought forward the story is she was saying
the people ran by her on the fire escape. She's
heavily featured in that up right, And so they hand
her over to Hank Hernandez who beat her up and
beat her up. And if you guys listened to that episode,
you heard him and you heard part of that, and
(06:39):
you're hearing a crime being committed when he's doing that
because he is tampering with the evidence. This is not
how you treat a witness to a crime. Might be
how you treat somebody who's suspected of a crime, but
you don't treat witnesses that way. And they beat her
up till finally she said, okay, whatever you want me
to say, I'm done with this. And the very next
day they held a conference and said the girl in
(07:02):
the polka at dress never existed. She was just a
fabrication of this one overwrought campaign worker. And the truth
was they had over thirty people who had contacted them
and said, yes, we saw this woman, We saw this
woman with her hand and another man, and they pretended
that it was only Sandra Serrano and it was not.
And those are the kind of lies that they were perpetrating.
(07:23):
So that's that's one of the places that I thought
that we really missed missed the boat in terms of
the girl in the polkadid dress, I think it's it's
just harder. You know. I was really focused on Sandra Serrano,
and I thought that was a good way in and
I just felt like she was the perfect, perfect microcosm
for basically what happened, hearing Hernandez just tear her up
(07:46):
and she's just a witness, as you always say. So
I felt like that sort of told the story and
without complicating it. And I know that your list goes
up to thirty, but we we disagree about how strong.
Now my list goes up to fifty four. A thirty
is the strong number I have there, But um, yeah,
(08:09):
but I think Serrano alone, Oh, this girl saw some
people running out. They screamed something, and the police didn't
like this story and they were a little hard on her,
and okay, so what they shouldn't have been so hard
on her. But when you realize how many other people
saw this woman and saw this woman with not just
her hand, but with another man in her hand, you know, now,
you now there's something else being hidden. After she was
(08:31):
on television, after she was on television, after it was
in the newspapers. But if you were there that night
and you're you know, there's a thousand people in the
ballroom and he shot and you go home and you're devastated.
And two days later you read in Los Angeles Times
that there was a suspicious woman in a polka address
(08:52):
with her hand that night, and you say, my god,
we saw that woman. And you call the FBI and
you call the police. So just because happened after the
newspaper article comes out, doesn't mean all these people are
lying and making it up. That's the natural thing. It's
what you would do, It's what I would do. I
don't think they're lying. I just feel like memories hard
(09:13):
and so it's like when when they're thinking back on
that night, did you I kind of remember seeing that girl,
and then as they replay it over and over against
I definitely saw that girl, you know. So I just
think they're now he doesn't like that, no, because when
you read these people's statements, you know, oh, she saw her,
she saw the woman and it looked out a place
and with another guy, and she reported to someone, and
(09:36):
that person reported to somebody else. And each one of
these stories has has a story to it. Now, are
they all making it up? I don't think so. Well,
Our dear friend, friend of the show Rosaline Eastman wrote
a beautiful song about a girl in the polka dot dress,
and it's going to be on the soundtrack. Rosaline Eastman,
(10:20):
you look so nice. You're in my sights. Two Nights
Out Night and the Futures Bride, because it's about time
(10:42):
we show up all the big shot and we won't stop,
and we won't stop, because it's about time we show
up all the big shot and we won't stop, and
we won't start. Put on your best that poker dart dress.
(11:18):
Put on your best, that poker dart dress. This night
is blessed. Today was long. We've been up since start,
(12:16):
and here we are when night turns tomorn. Because it's
about time we show up all the big shots, and
we won't stop, and we won't stop, because it's about
(12:39):
time we show up all the big shots, and we
won't stop, and we won't stop. Put on your best
that poker dot dress, but on your best that poker didrus.
(13:14):
The world will sing as praises for us, like a chorus,
like a chorus, like a chorus. The world will sing
as praises for us, like a chorus, like a chorus,
(13:34):
like a chorus. She'll be back to sing another song
(13:54):
A little bit um Welcome to the stage. A special
guest mister Dan and mal Day. They both brought files.
So yeah, ready, So when's the last time you guys
(14:14):
saw each other. I think it was when we were
visiting sr Hand. I think it was the last time
when I both visit. It's your hand for the first time.
It was my first time. It was your first time.
We drove up to Corkoran State Penitentiary with Adels your hand.
I just it was when I was still in the
two guns thing. Yeah, I know, I remember, and I was,
(14:40):
I mean, you were, you were you know, let me
like you know that that barringer, he said to me,
it wasn't a fucking nail hole. It was a bullet hole. Yeah,
you know. And then Collier said, you know they're talking
extra listen. I was in a position where I thought
I'd made history, and I'm sure you'll acknowledge that the
story that I did for Regards Magazine was the story
(15:01):
that led to the opening of the files, where the
City of Los Angeles released the files, which all of
us benefited from As a result, I think the files
were on their way to being They were not on
their way they weren't even it wasn't even on anybody's
agenda until my story came out. And that's been acknowledged
by the Los Angeles Times, that's been acknowledged by the
Washington Post, among other publics. Okay, that's fine, I know
(15:24):
it's I know. I know it's gonna be. It's gonna
be it's gonna be hard for you to give me
any credit whatsoever. I want to give you a lot
of credit because I think that you really did um
you know, come a long distance of solving the case
there with these these did solve the case? Yeah, I
did solve the case. Explain Explain to me how I
please solve the murder. I solved the case because I
(15:46):
showed how the police airs led to people like us
believing that there were two guns in that room. Okay,
now tell us that story. What part of it do
you want to know? The Walter two story, Alter two story. Well,
you had all these reports done by the LAPD, and
no one ever got a magnifying glass and looked in
(16:07):
the holes and there was seven two three LASO. I
called a source of mind at the Los Angeles Sheriff's Office.
I said, who was bat seven two three on June fourth,
nineteen sixty eight. He said, Walt W two t e W.
He was a motorcycle cop, a very fine person on
his cop, but he wasn't a criminalist. Yeah, so how
(16:30):
did this affect you that he was a motorcycle cop. Well,
it augmented what I already believed about the bullet holes,
that they were in fact bullet holes, but they weren't.
They were identified at bullet holes by William Bailey, who
Bailey has had conflicting versions of this sort of the beginning.
The first person he went to wash, the first person
(16:53):
he went to was vinc Bugliosi. Vis Bugliosi never mentioned
He said that Bailey never mentioned a word about the
about the bullet holes. Yeah, so Bill Bailey didn't know
what he was talking about. Bailey did not know what
he was talking about. That that's correct. And why why
then it's there no police reports saying, gee, we took
these doorframes down and golly gee, instead of bullets were
(17:16):
they were countersunk nails. There is no such a report.
There's no evidence at all from the police. Didn't keep
it as evidence because there were no bullets into doorframes. Bill,
there were no bullets, and you have you have twenty
five people saying that they saw these bullet holes. And
but in your case, they were all misled by this
one motorcycle cop who put circles around them. Talked to
(17:38):
one hundred and fourteen police officers who were part of
this investigation. I spent like two years going after these guys.
So how do you get the bullet in Paul Schrade's
head because the first shot missed Kennedy and get Paul
Schrad into him? Okay, then now get four bullets in
the back of Bobby Kennedy at a steep upward angle
(18:00):
which you have is a situation where se your hand
is hiding behind an ice machine. Right, he's by a
tray sacker by the ice machine. He attacks his hands out,
He's moving fast and he's lunging, and from what I understand,
he shouts, Kennedy, you son of a bitch. Kennedy, according
(18:21):
to Paul Schrade, has just released a handshake from a
busboy and he's taken a step towards a steam table
which has bolted to the floor. When searhand rushes at Kennedy.
He describes the moment when his eyes meet Kennedy's Mike
(18:41):
McGowan says to me, I know him. Our good audience
doesn't know. No, you're right here, comes McGowan, So let
me speak to the audience. Then. Mike McGowan is an
investigator for a Seerhand's defense team, and McGowan says, well,
why don't you shoot him between the eyes? And seer
Hand replies, because that son of a bitch turned his
(19:03):
head at the last second. Now why would he be
turning his head. He's got a guy Russiana with a
gun shouting Kennedy, you son of a bitch? Is he
going to stand there? He's gonna go like this, He's
gonna turn defensively. The shot hits Paul Schraid and see
your hand has a one, two, three, four shots. That's
great because if that really happened and Kennedy is pushed
(19:25):
up against a steam table, now he'd almost have to
be on his hands and knees at that point. Where
would he be found. He would be found on his
face down in front of the steam. You're telling me
you can tell with absolute certainty how a person is
reacting as he's being hit by gunfight. I would say,
what you're saying yes. I was saying, on their attack
is going to be is going to be fully conscious
(19:47):
of his movements. I'm saying, Bill, you're playing a weekend.
If you're making that claim, oh um, I would say,
if he's on his hands and knees taking a bullet
to the back of his head from a steam table,
he would be found own somewhere very near to the
steam table on his face. That he's found ten or
twelve feet away on his back, unless he's pinned against
the table. It was a small area. I've been there.
(20:10):
I'm sure you've been there. It's a very small area.
Everyone was pushing forward, forward, forward. Kennedy was pushed up
against his team table. He Shrade falls and then Kennedy falls.
Sear Hand had clear opportunity to get him four times. A. Yeah,
So we have a lot of difficulties here. We have
(20:31):
a bullet, according to the police, um that enters polsch
Rate's head that defies the laws of Newton because they
have to make it go through Kennedy's shirt. Uh, necessarily true.
You don't know that. Well, that's what they said, that's
what the LAPD. So, So when the LAPD sets up
that you agree with that's part of your conspiracy fantasy.
You'll use it. If they say something that's a sculptory,
(20:52):
then you'll use it. For this is their accounting of
the shots and what I'm saying, which is wrong. I
agree with it. I think their accounting he was wrong.
Imagine this. Imagine that there's somebody standing behind Robert Kennedy.
Sir hand gets off two shots in the direction he's
wrestled down to the steam table. He continues to also
(21:12):
changed his story repeatedly. No, so he continues to fire
his gun. The bullets spray out in particular direction, wounding witnesses,
and these witnesses are also standing in front of the doorframes,
which take bullets. Also, in the meantime, somebody's standing behind
Robert Kennedy with a gun pressed up against his back.
(21:34):
He fires four times at point blank range. So that's
how you get bullets in the ceiling tiles, That's how
you get bullets in the doorframes, and bullets in the
vice standers, And that's how you get thirteen bullets. And
that account. You don't have to defy the laws of
Newton or anything. I reject everything you've just said. I mean,
it makes no sense, there's no evidence of it, and
(21:57):
it's ridiculous. It's more after the rake, what what about
you know, the woman scene with sirhand the polka dot
dress ground. Yeah, so we're gonna have this very sophisticated conspiracy,
and we're gonna have all these things movements and everything
(22:18):
is going to be synchronized and everything, and then you're
going to have the conspirators running out of the crime
scene taking credit for it. We shot him, we shot him,
We shot Senator Kennedy. Sure, it doesn't make sense to
me that somebody who's part of a sophisticated murder conspiracy
is going to run out of the crime scene taking
credit for it. Well, she was hysterical, but she was
seen with Sirhan in the pantry and accoding to Vincent
(22:41):
de Piero. She was almost holding him and they were
talking and she was she was there with him, and
there was another guy in the room also and yeah,
she ran out of the room saying, we got him,
we got him, we shot him. Um. I can't explain
her behavior, but apparently she was his. She's telling the truth.
I think I think Sandy Serrano is to the truth.
I think she heard exactly what she heard. I am
(23:03):
second to none of my criticism of Hank Hernandez and
whoever else browbeat her into submission on that thing. I
believe she heard what she heard. I believe it. So
then why did the police shut down the investigation as
soon as they broke her because they knew it didn't matter.
It's Menusha, Bill, You're you're a You're a smart, honest,
(23:23):
dedicated guy, and you get sucked into this Minusha, which
you know so very well. But you are a good,
decent person who refuses to admit that you're wrong. I
had submitted a proposal to my publisher and I said,
I'm going to prove two guns in the room. Sear
Hand did it? Do it? Jeane Caesar did it. There's
no question, sir Hands. I was ready to put her hand.
(23:46):
Didn't just let this thing go and keep it to
two gun conspiracy theory. I had to come to that
point where I had to admit that I was wrong.
Oh I'm glad. That's good. One last thing I wanted
to bring up his things, Caesar. So let's talk things
Caesar for a second. Guy. You tracked him down. Listen,
I'm the only person in the world, living or dead,
(24:08):
who's interviewed both see your hands, your hand and thing
Eugene Caesar. And when I first got into this, I
was convinced that Caesar may have been the guy who
did it. It's a charity guard standing behind Kennedy, which
was kind his hand and powder burns on his face.
And so I went. I went after Caesar. I was
on my feet pointing my finger at him. You've heard
(24:29):
the tape accusing him of doing the murder. Caesar basically
laughed at me. I don't even think I had this
guy off Ballace who the whole interview, he was in
full confidence because he knew he didn't do it. Okay,
So then the police evidence that you collected from the
policeman about the extra bullets in that case, that would
have been good evidence at that moment. That only became
(24:51):
bad evidence when you decided that Caesar didn't do it.
And then all of a sudden you needed to invent
a reason why it was bad evidence, and you came
up with this whole little Walter two idea. Bill. You know,
we I'm a civilian investigator without subpoena power. I have
no subpoena power. I have limited access and resources. I
had to play this thing the way I had to
(25:12):
play it, just as you, honestly and with integrity and
in true belief believe that there's two guns in this
room and that there's a conspiracy behind it. I admire you.
I respect you for that having that kind of principle.
One of the reasons I think that is the work
that you did, and you can't take that work back
just because you've changed your mind. Obviously, if Caesar, if
(25:34):
I had, if I had broken Caesar down on all
those occasions when I interviewed him and he had confessed
to the murder, obviously that would have been a game
changer for me. I have no idea how it reacted
to that. Again, I had in my first interview with him,
as you pointed on in your program, I thought I
was going to that was going to be the end
of my book. I was going to get this guy.
(25:55):
I was going to get his confession, and that was
and I was going to solve this case once and
for all, solve the murder, and solve the case. And
I thought that was how it was. When when it
didn't happen, you said, gee, what am I going to do. Now.
What I did was I had to find how much
time and money I'm going to spend on a guy
who has completely defied me in all of my interviews
(26:18):
with him, and now he's passed the polygraph test. At
what point do I find with clearing Caesar? It just
doesn't eliminate all the other evidence. Who were the other
people in the room with guns in their hands and
powder burns on their face? Who else is there? There?
There are a few people, but right there at Kennedy,
with Kennedy, right there at I admitted, I admit it's
a problem, but it's uh, it's not a problem. You know,
(26:39):
just admits your hands lying and that that's the end
of the problem. Well, I don't admit that. I don't
think he is lying. I think he doesn't remember the crime.
I think he's a sincere person and got caught up
in something he has no idea about. When you and
I were there and we saw we saw a very
gentle man. He's an intellect, he had had a decent mind.
He didn't have a television in his uh cell. He
(27:00):
had a radio. He listened to NPR, listen to All
Things considered. Um, you know, I believe seer Hand remembers everything.
I believe seer Hand remembers everything. Here are sheer Hand's
handwritten notes given to Mike McCowan. He does not talk
about the moment of the shooting, but he talks about
(27:23):
his movements in the hotel. So you're saying that he
can turn the mind control on and turn it off.
I think they did a bunch of experiments in his
jail cell where they were able to hypnotize their hand
in a matter of five seconds, and they're able to
give him post hypnotic suggestions, which he carried out to
a t. They brought him out afterwards, and you know,
(27:44):
Diamond takes out his handkerchief, blows his nose and sir
Hand is climbing. You and I both know how smart
seer Hand is. He Oh, he was faking all that stuff.
I think he's faking it. Well, he remembers everything. So
we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna, We're gonna take a
tiny pause. Um'm thanking for your participation in this interaction.
(28:04):
I'm trying to get a word and that's why. Um so,
the man at the center of this whole thing, we
haven't talked a lot about him. Do you guys have
any reflections on I was mystified by your father's comment
on in the last episode. Tell me he said something
and I'm paraphrasing now, but I don't care who murdered him.
(28:27):
The important thing is that he was an amazing man
that was taken from us. And it seemed to me
those things just don't go together. If he's an amazing
person that's been taken from us, who murdered him and
why is it would seem to be the next question.
My dad was talking about Bobby Kennedy's words being more
important right now in our time, and I gotta say,
(28:52):
I that's that's how I feel. I'm more interested in
hearing Robert Mueller's words right now. That's what I'm interested in,
seguar Vidno, And I mean that does that clarify it
a little bit for you? Or not? Really? No? Because
if um, you know, I'm going to be a conspiracy
(29:14):
not here. But I believe that John Kennedy was murdered
by a conspiracy, and that probably if that happened and
they got away with it, then they're not going to
sit around and let his brother assented the presidency, and
that's something we need to know about. While we were
making this podcast, the word conspiracy theory changed in the society.
(29:37):
I mean, we started this podcast before mister Trump was elected,
and now, in my opinion, right now, it means Sandy
Hook didn't happen. It means the Parkland students are somehow
crisis actors. So to to promote any sort of conspiracy
feels a lot more dangerous right now than it did
(29:58):
when we started it this podcast. I don't understand what
that means. Then we shouldn't should we should We should
be careful about some of the stuff that that that
we're insinuating. We should make sure that it's built on
very very solid solid We should anyway. I mean, if
we're going to say the President of the United States
was killed by a conspiracy, we'd better be on solid ground,
(30:21):
right um. And the same with Martin Luther King and
Bob Kennedy. So I don't think I don't think that
ground has changed at all. Well, we disagree about how
solid the ground is. Well, I'm the Bob Kennedy case. Yeah,
because I agree with with Bill about the JFK case.
I mean, again, I think it's a it's a straight mob. Yet. Uh,
(30:43):
let's hear another song. Welcome back Rose, ladies. This one's
called Abraham Martin and gentlemen. Has anyone here seen my
(31:05):
old friend day Perham? Can you tell me where he's gone?
He freed a lot of people, but it seems that
good they die young and I just looked around and
(31:33):
he's gone. Has anyone here seen my old friend John?
(32:00):
Can you tell me where he's God? He freed a
lot of people, but it seems the good they die.
You and I just looked around and he's gone. Has
(32:49):
anyone here seen my old friend Martin? Can you tell
me where he's gone? He freed a lot of people,
(33:10):
but it seems the good they die, so, y'all, I
just looked around and he's gone. Didn't you lize the
things they stood for? Didn't they try to find some
(33:41):
good for you and me? And will be free some day?
I know it'll happen. Wonder as anyone hill seeing my
(34:09):
old friend boy? Can you tell me where he is gone?
You freed a lot of people, but it seems the
good they doe you. I thought I saw him walking
(34:41):
up over the hill with Abraham Martin and John gloory glory.
(35:11):
Hallelu yeah, glooory glory, halleluyah, glooory glory, halleluyah. His truth
this marching, Sir Bobby. Okay, So we'll take some questions,
(35:53):
and there's a microphone. Austin's coming. It's Austin to the rescue.
But I have some things, some questions from Twitter. Possibility
of having the case reopened. None, it won't be reopened.
Why do you say that there's no venue for it.
(36:15):
There's no it's past the point. The people who are
live back then, most of them are not alive. Um.
The statue of limitations is run on most things. Um,
not murder. Not murder. Well, sure, but there are the
crimes the police committed. The statute is run on those.
And there's there's no politician that would derive any benefit
(36:37):
from from doing this. So there's there's no way it
can happen. Really, we're just fighting over history at this point. Um,
did Bill thinks ESP was a sellout? Did I think? What?
Did you think I was a sellout? That's though it
occurred to me. I think you were right on target, Sack.
(37:00):
We thought it was a brilliant piece of broadcast journalism.
Good job. Thanks Dan. Okay, any questions, I have a question,
So I will say I lean more towards the incompetence
over conspiracy. But I am curious, after the conversation you
(37:20):
guys had about Gene Caesar, what the exonerating evidence is
beyond the polygraph because polygraphs are the science is kind
of mixed on this. And also like he didn't break
down and cry in front of you, but like, besides
those two things, what's the exonerating evidence? Again, it was
I needed a test or measurement to figure out how
much time me personally civilian investigator was going to spend
(37:41):
on this guy. And I'm telling you right now, this
guy was not taken off. He was not off balanced
by with me at any point during our many, many,
many interviews. I still talked to him. I talked to
him still. I've been on the phone to him fairly regularly.
I'm because now I'm now come and Bill will criticize
(38:01):
me for this, but I defend the guy. Now I
have his power of attorney. He gave me his power.
I'm godfather to his son. Yeah, he was so grateful
to me for getting him off the hook. He baby
godfather to a son four years after my book came out. Um, yeah,
into a guy for forty nine years has been accused
(38:23):
of murder when in fact he's an innocent man, wrongly accused.
I have a question for zach Um. So one of
the things that the podcast was missing was, of course
you meeting with Sir Hann, Right, That's something that both
Bill and Dan got to do. If you got to
meet with Sir Hann, what would you like to ask him?
I sent him questions. Um, I tried really hard to
(38:47):
get an interview with U with Sir Hann. He's a
he may be an NPR listener, but he's not a
podcast listener. Uh Now. I pitched Laurie Dousick really really
hard and hounded for a long time, and submitted questions
to Munier, his brother, who's sort of one of the
gate gatekeepers. He's been interviewed so many times over the years.
(39:12):
It's hard to know what I would ask him. Abel.
I was wondering if he had any theories about the
rescruction's role and then all this, because I guess it
was covered a bit and it just kind of fell
off after and I'm just wondering, like where they just
recruiters or like, what's the theory around this? I don't know.
(39:34):
It's one of those strange things that's sort of lurking
out there. Is if sir hand did fall into was
if his mind was manipulated, and I believe there's strong
evidence that it was. Who did he fall into how
did he fall into it? And there are various theories
that after he fell off the horse at the racetrack,
(39:54):
he went on a medical odyssey and may have stumbled
into the wrong doctor's office or maybe with his rosicrucian um,
you know, experiments, he got involved with some people who
you know, led him in that direction. I don't have
any evidence, so, uh, the answer is, I don't know.
(40:18):
I think it's bullshit. Dan Dan thinks he did it,
and Bill did it. Doesn't all right? Thanks everybody for CRIMA.
(40:44):
Crimetown is Zack Stewart Pontier and Marks Marlin. The RFK
Tapes is made in partnership with Cadence thirteen. For bonus content,
go to RFK tapes dot com. This episode was produced
by Jesse Rudoi, Max Miller Kolpa, and Kevin Shephard. Our
senior producer is me Austin Mitchell, editing by Mark Smarling.
(41:09):
This episode was mixed by Sam Bair, recording help from
Jeff O'Neill. Musical performances by Rosaline Eastman. Our title track
is Maria Tambien by Krungbin. Music supervision by Josh Kessler
and Dylan Bostick at Heavy Duty Projects. Our website is
designed by Kurt Courtney. Archival research by Brennan Reese. Thanks
(41:33):
to Emily Wiedemann, Green Card Pictures, Alessandro Santoro, Ryan Murdoch,
Mike Eastman, Michael Jaworski, Kate Hessler, Brendan Sullivan and the
team at Caden's Thirteen. If you like the RFK Tapes,
please consider leaving us a rating and review on Apple
Podcasts or wherever you listen. It really does help others
(41:54):
find out about the show. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram,
and Twitter at the RFKA Tapes thix
You're listening to the RFK tapes live at the Bellhouse
in Guanas, Brooklyn. Thank you all. I'm not Zach or Bill.
I'm sorry. Yeah, thanks. My name is Austin. I'm the
senior producer of the RFKA tapes. Thank you so much
for coming. I'm about to introduce Zach and Bill, who
(00:26):
are going to discuss the final episode, and later they'll
be joined by investigative journalists Dan Muldea and Bill and
Dan will go head to head over their conflicting versions
of the RFK case. It's a split crowd. It wasn't
a conspiracy. I think police are incompetent. Oh, definitely, there's
(00:50):
some conspiracy that there's a lot of question marks. I
still think Sirhan Sirhan did it. I think there might
have been some CTE and maybe some mind manipulation that
goes along with it. I mean, there's too many coincidences
for me just to accept. Oh yeah, I think that
(01:12):
it is the resecutions, absolute mind control. People tend to
get a little lost in their own conspiracies and I
kind of just lean more towards the non conspiracy. I'm
surprised that Zach has changed his tune and I feel
like somebody got to him. You know, I think I
(01:33):
really believe the conspiracy theory. I think that Bill is
spreading the good word in the gospel. I think there's
an earnestness to Bill that makes you want to believe.
And I think there's an abrasiveness to Dan that makes
me not want to believe him. But ultimately, you know,
I think Dan's probably right. Cool. Hopefully we see some
(01:54):
sparks tonight. Hey, everybody, I'm Zach start Pontier, I'm Bill
Claiber and this is the IRFK Taps Live. Thanks for
(02:19):
common Well, hey, it's gonna be fun. It is. Um
So all of those comments that we were looking at
just now, those all came in the last twenty four
or thirty six hours or so. Yeah. So. Projected on
stage as the audience arrived were tweets and comments about
the final episode, ranging from a poetic meditation on our
(02:42):
need to find meaning in the chaos two Zach is
a total sellout. I love them. I love when you
were getting trashed you did, yeah, tell me more about that. Well,
you know, I love the ones that said, you know
that that Claibor guy wasn't allowed to really say what
he thought, you know, and you know, so it's a yeah,
have you heard from any any of our any of
(03:03):
our friends. Yeah, they're probably not my friends anymore. No, No,
I got at four thirty in the morning, I got
an email from a guy saying, what's going on? Well,
you know, Uh, I loved it. I said, please send
this message on to zach Um. So he did. Oh good.
Why did you think of the finale? Um? I didn't
(03:25):
like it. I didn't like it. I didn't think it. Um. Uh. Basically,
it just I felt like we left the labd off
the hook, you know. And it seems to me that
the best way to understand this case is really look
at their conduct, really look at what they did. And
I think we left a lot of that on the floor.
(03:46):
Where there are some things that you felt like we
should have done better in the show. Yeah, a bunch
of them. Um. We don't have a whole lot of time,
but I don't want to get into a few of them. Yeah. Um.
Just her hand's memory and motive, It appears from everything
(04:06):
that we know, his dealing with the psychiatrist being hypnotized
in the jail cell to his murder Knight interviews with
the police. The guy doesn't seem like he has any
idea of what he's doing, and of course eventually he
was tagged with, oh, he was a political assassin, he
did it to save his people or whatever. Is sure
(04:27):
didn't act it that night, so her hand doesn't seem
to have any idea that he did anything. He doesn't
know and that's what he said all along, And basically
I believe him in that. When you watch what happens
over the months before his trial, you see what becomes
a motive implant. Is that over and over again he
(04:49):
has handed the political motive. And since he doesn't know
why he did it, because he can't remember the crime
and doesn't remember planning the crime, he eventually has to
adopt a motive because he has to answer that question
just like anybody else does. So we adopts the political motive.
But I've never been convinced that that was a true motive,
because he's just didn't act like a political assassin that night.
(05:12):
He's his choice is either he's a crazy guy or
he's a hero to his people. And after a time,
any one of us might make that decision. Well, I'd
rather be a hero than a crazy guy. So, um,
that's something else we could have explored. All right, Well
you know what I would say, No, you say, go
(05:33):
ahead say it, say it. Well, I think with this
Sirhan thing, I think we spent a whole episode talking
about the motive implant. We just didn't use tape of
that night. We used a lot of hypno. I mean,
it was a whole It was one of my favorite episodes.
Shout out Jesse rudoay who did a great job on that.
(05:53):
All right, one more what do you think? What's one
more thing that you thought we could have done better?
We left a lot of stuff on the floor with
the called the girl in the puka at dress, but
it was the people seen with Sir hand the knight
of the murder. Now, if Sir Hann is walking around
with people with him that night and being let around
by this woman, something else is going on. And what
(06:15):
that's something else is we don't know. But the day
after the police broke Sandra Serrano, and she's the one
that first brought forward the story is she was saying
the people ran by her on the fire escape. She's
heavily featured in that up right, And so they hand
her over to Hank Hernandez who beat her up and
beat her up. And if you guys listened to that episode,
you heard him and you heard part of that, and
(06:39):
you're hearing a crime being committed when he's doing that
because he is tampering with the evidence. This is not
how you treat a witness to a crime. Might be
how you treat somebody who's suspected of a crime, but
you don't treat witnesses that way. And they beat her
up till finally she said, okay, whatever you want me
to say, I'm done with this. And the very next
day they held a conference and said the girl in
(07:02):
the polka at dress never existed. She was just a
fabrication of this one overwrought campaign worker. And the truth
was they had over thirty people who had contacted them
and said, yes, we saw this woman, We saw this
woman with her hand and another man, and they pretended
that it was only Sandra Serrano and it was not.
And those are the kind of lies that they were perpetrating.
(07:23):
So that's that's one of the places that I thought
that we really missed missed the boat in terms of
the girl in the polkadid dress, I think it's it's
just harder. You know. I was really focused on Sandra Serrano,
and I thought that was a good way in and
I just felt like she was the perfect, perfect microcosm
for basically what happened, hearing Hernandez just tear her up
(07:46):
and she's just a witness, as you always say. So
I felt like that sort of told the story and
without complicating it. And I know that your list goes
up to thirty, but we we disagree about how strong.
Now my list goes up to fifty four. A thirty
is the strong number I have there, But um, yeah,
(08:09):
but I think Serrano alone, Oh, this girl saw some
people running out. They screamed something, and the police didn't
like this story and they were a little hard on her,
and okay, so what they shouldn't have been so hard
on her. But when you realize how many other people
saw this woman and saw this woman with not just
her hand, but with another man in her hand, you know, now,
you now there's something else being hidden. After she was
(08:31):
on television, after she was on television, after it was
in the newspapers. But if you were there that night
and you're you know, there's a thousand people in the
ballroom and he shot and you go home and you're devastated.
And two days later you read in Los Angeles Times
that there was a suspicious woman in a polka address
(08:52):
with her hand that night, and you say, my god,
we saw that woman. And you call the FBI and
you call the police. So just because happened after the
newspaper article comes out, doesn't mean all these people are
lying and making it up. That's the natural thing. It's
what you would do, It's what I would do. I
don't think they're lying. I just feel like memories hard
(09:13):
and so it's like when when they're thinking back on
that night, did you I kind of remember seeing that girl,
and then as they replay it over and over against
I definitely saw that girl, you know. So I just
think they're now he doesn't like that, no, because when
you read these people's statements, you know, oh, she saw her,
she saw the woman and it looked out a place
and with another guy, and she reported to someone, and
(09:36):
that person reported to somebody else. And each one of
these stories has has a story to it. Now, are
they all making it up? I don't think so. Well,
Our dear friend, friend of the show Rosaline Eastman wrote
a beautiful song about a girl in the polka dot dress,
and it's going to be on the soundtrack. Rosaline Eastman,
(10:20):
you look so nice. You're in my sights. Two Nights
Out Night and the Futures Bride, because it's about time
(10:42):
we show up all the big shot and we won't stop,
and we won't stop, because it's about time we show
up all the big shot and we won't stop, and
we won't start. Put on your best that poker dart dress.
(11:18):
Put on your best, that poker dart dress. This night
is blessed. Today was long. We've been up since start,
(12:16):
and here we are when night turns tomorn. Because it's
about time we show up all the big shots, and
we won't stop, and we won't stop, because it's about
(12:39):
time we show up all the big shots, and we
won't stop, and we won't stop. Put on your best
that poker dot dress, but on your best that poker didrus.
(13:14):
The world will sing as praises for us, like a chorus,
like a chorus, like a chorus. The world will sing
as praises for us, like a chorus, like a chorus,
(13:34):
like a chorus. She'll be back to sing another song
(13:54):
A little bit um Welcome to the stage. A special
guest mister Dan and mal Day. They both brought files.
So yeah, ready, So when's the last time you guys
(14:14):
saw each other. I think it was when we were
visiting sr Hand. I think it was the last time
when I both visit. It's your hand for the first time.
It was my first time. It was your first time.
We drove up to Corkoran State Penitentiary with Adels your hand.
I just it was when I was still in the
two guns thing. Yeah, I know, I remember, and I was,
(14:40):
I mean, you were, you were you know, let me
like you know that that barringer, he said to me,
it wasn't a fucking nail hole. It was a bullet hole. Yeah,
you know. And then Collier said, you know they're talking
extra listen. I was in a position where I thought
I'd made history, and I'm sure you'll acknowledge that the
story that I did for Regards Magazine was the story
(15:01):
that led to the opening of the files, where the
City of Los Angeles released the files, which all of
us benefited from As a result, I think the files
were on their way to being They were not on
their way they weren't even it wasn't even on anybody's
agenda until my story came out. And that's been acknowledged
by the Los Angeles Times, that's been acknowledged by the
Washington Post, among other publics. Okay, that's fine, I know
(15:24):
it's I know. I know it's gonna be. It's gonna
be it's gonna be hard for you to give me
any credit whatsoever. I want to give you a lot
of credit because I think that you really did um
you know, come a long distance of solving the case
there with these these did solve the case? Yeah, I
did solve the case. Explain Explain to me how I
please solve the murder. I solved the case because I
(15:46):
showed how the police airs led to people like us
believing that there were two guns in that room. Okay,
now tell us that story. What part of it do
you want to know? The Walter two story, Alter two story. Well,
you had all these reports done by the LAPD, and
no one ever got a magnifying glass and looked in
(16:07):
the holes and there was seven two three LASO. I
called a source of mind at the Los Angeles Sheriff's Office.
I said, who was bat seven two three on June fourth,
nineteen sixty eight. He said, Walt W two t e W.
He was a motorcycle cop, a very fine person on
his cop, but he wasn't a criminalist. Yeah, so how
(16:30):
did this affect you that he was a motorcycle cop. Well,
it augmented what I already believed about the bullet holes,
that they were in fact bullet holes, but they weren't.
They were identified at bullet holes by William Bailey, who
Bailey has had conflicting versions of this sort of the beginning.
The first person he went to wash, the first person
(16:53):
he went to was vinc Bugliosi. Vis Bugliosi never mentioned
He said that Bailey never mentioned a word about the
about the bullet holes. Yeah, so Bill Bailey didn't know
what he was talking about. Bailey did not know what
he was talking about. That that's correct. And why why
then it's there no police reports saying, gee, we took
these doorframes down and golly gee, instead of bullets were
(17:16):
they were countersunk nails. There is no such a report.
There's no evidence at all from the police. Didn't keep
it as evidence because there were no bullets into doorframes. Bill,
there were no bullets, and you have you have twenty
five people saying that they saw these bullet holes. And
but in your case, they were all misled by this
one motorcycle cop who put circles around them. Talked to
(17:38):
one hundred and fourteen police officers who were part of
this investigation. I spent like two years going after these guys.
So how do you get the bullet in Paul Schrade's
head because the first shot missed Kennedy and get Paul
Schrad into him? Okay, then now get four bullets in
the back of Bobby Kennedy at a steep upward angle
(18:00):
which you have is a situation where se your hand
is hiding behind an ice machine. Right, he's by a
tray sacker by the ice machine. He attacks his hands out,
He's moving fast and he's lunging, and from what I understand,
he shouts, Kennedy, you son of a bitch. Kennedy, according
(18:21):
to Paul Schrade, has just released a handshake from a
busboy and he's taken a step towards a steam table
which has bolted to the floor. When searhand rushes at Kennedy.
He describes the moment when his eyes meet Kennedy's Mike
(18:41):
McGowan says to me, I know him. Our good audience
doesn't know. No, you're right here, comes McGowan, So let
me speak to the audience. Then. Mike McGowan is an
investigator for a Seerhand's defense team, and McGowan says, well,
why don't you shoot him between the eyes? And seer
Hand replies, because that son of a bitch turned his
(19:03):
head at the last second. Now why would he be
turning his head. He's got a guy Russiana with a
gun shouting Kennedy, you son of a bitch? Is he
going to stand there? He's gonna go like this, He's
gonna turn defensively. The shot hits Paul Schraid and see
your hand has a one, two, three, four shots. That's
great because if that really happened and Kennedy is pushed
(19:25):
up against a steam table, now he'd almost have to
be on his hands and knees at that point. Where
would he be found. He would be found on his
face down in front of the steam. You're telling me
you can tell with absolute certainty how a person is
reacting as he's being hit by gunfight. I would say,
what you're saying yes. I was saying, on their attack
is going to be is going to be fully conscious
(19:47):
of his movements. I'm saying, Bill, you're playing a weekend.
If you're making that claim, oh um, I would say,
if he's on his hands and knees taking a bullet
to the back of his head from a steam table,
he would be found own somewhere very near to the
steam table on his face. That he's found ten or
twelve feet away on his back, unless he's pinned against
the table. It was a small area. I've been there.
(20:10):
I'm sure you've been there. It's a very small area.
Everyone was pushing forward, forward, forward. Kennedy was pushed up
against his team table. He Shrade falls and then Kennedy falls.
Sear Hand had clear opportunity to get him four times. A. Yeah,
So we have a lot of difficulties here. We have
(20:31):
a bullet, according to the police, um that enters polsch
Rate's head that defies the laws of Newton because they
have to make it go through Kennedy's shirt. Uh, necessarily true.
You don't know that. Well, that's what they said, that's
what the LAPD. So, So when the LAPD sets up
that you agree with that's part of your conspiracy fantasy.
You'll use it. If they say something that's a sculptory,
(20:52):
then you'll use it. For this is their accounting of
the shots and what I'm saying, which is wrong. I
agree with it. I think their accounting he was wrong.
Imagine this. Imagine that there's somebody standing behind Robert Kennedy.
Sir hand gets off two shots in the direction he's
wrestled down to the steam table. He continues to also
(21:12):
changed his story repeatedly. No, so he continues to fire
his gun. The bullets spray out in particular direction, wounding witnesses,
and these witnesses are also standing in front of the doorframes,
which take bullets. Also, in the meantime, somebody's standing behind
Robert Kennedy with a gun pressed up against his back.
(21:34):
He fires four times at point blank range. So that's
how you get bullets in the ceiling tiles, That's how
you get bullets in the doorframes, and bullets in the
vice standers, And that's how you get thirteen bullets. And
that account. You don't have to defy the laws of
Newton or anything. I reject everything you've just said. I mean,
it makes no sense, there's no evidence of it, and
(21:57):
it's ridiculous. It's more after the rake, what what about
you know, the woman scene with sirhand the polka dot
dress ground. Yeah, so we're gonna have this very sophisticated conspiracy,
and we're gonna have all these things movements and everything
(22:18):
is going to be synchronized and everything, and then you're
going to have the conspirators running out of the crime
scene taking credit for it. We shot him, we shot him,
We shot Senator Kennedy. Sure, it doesn't make sense to
me that somebody who's part of a sophisticated murder conspiracy
is going to run out of the crime scene taking
credit for it. Well, she was hysterical, but she was
seen with Sirhan in the pantry and accoding to Vincent
(22:41):
de Piero. She was almost holding him and they were
talking and she was she was there with him, and
there was another guy in the room also and yeah,
she ran out of the room saying, we got him,
we got him, we shot him. Um. I can't explain
her behavior, but apparently she was his. She's telling the truth.
I think I think Sandy Serrano is to the truth.
I think she heard exactly what she heard. I am
(23:03):
second to none of my criticism of Hank Hernandez and
whoever else browbeat her into submission on that thing. I
believe she heard what she heard. I believe it. So
then why did the police shut down the investigation as
soon as they broke her because they knew it didn't matter.
It's Menusha, Bill, You're you're a You're a smart, honest,
(23:23):
dedicated guy, and you get sucked into this Minusha, which
you know so very well. But you are a good,
decent person who refuses to admit that you're wrong. I
had submitted a proposal to my publisher and I said,
I'm going to prove two guns in the room. Sear
Hand did it? Do it? Jeane Caesar did it. There's
no question, sir Hands. I was ready to put her hand.
(23:46):
Didn't just let this thing go and keep it to
two gun conspiracy theory. I had to come to that
point where I had to admit that I was wrong.
Oh I'm glad. That's good. One last thing I wanted
to bring up his things, Caesar. So let's talk things
Caesar for a second. Guy. You tracked him down. Listen,
I'm the only person in the world, living or dead,
(24:08):
who's interviewed both see your hands, your hand and thing
Eugene Caesar. And when I first got into this, I
was convinced that Caesar may have been the guy who
did it. It's a charity guard standing behind Kennedy, which
was kind his hand and powder burns on his face.
And so I went. I went after Caesar. I was
on my feet pointing my finger at him. You've heard
(24:29):
the tape accusing him of doing the murder. Caesar basically
laughed at me. I don't even think I had this
guy off Ballace who the whole interview, he was in
full confidence because he knew he didn't do it. Okay,
So then the police evidence that you collected from the
policeman about the extra bullets in that case, that would
have been good evidence at that moment. That only became
(24:51):
bad evidence when you decided that Caesar didn't do it.
And then all of a sudden you needed to invent
a reason why it was bad evidence, and you came
up with this whole little Walter two idea. Bill. You know,
we I'm a civilian investigator without subpoena power. I have
no subpoena power. I have limited access and resources. I
had to play this thing the way I had to
(25:12):
play it, just as you, honestly and with integrity and
in true belief believe that there's two guns in this
room and that there's a conspiracy behind it. I admire you.
I respect you for that having that kind of principle.
One of the reasons I think that is the work
that you did, and you can't take that work back
just because you've changed your mind. Obviously, if Caesar, if
(25:34):
I had, if I had broken Caesar down on all
those occasions when I interviewed him and he had confessed
to the murder, obviously that would have been a game
changer for me. I have no idea how it reacted
to that. Again, I had in my first interview with him,
as you pointed on in your program, I thought I
was going to that was going to be the end
of my book. I was going to get this guy.
(25:55):
I was going to get his confession, and that was
and I was going to solve this case once and
for all, solve the murder, and solve the case. And
I thought that was how it was. When when it
didn't happen, you said, gee, what am I going to do. Now.
What I did was I had to find how much
time and money I'm going to spend on a guy
who has completely defied me in all of my interviews
(26:18):
with him, and now he's passed the polygraph test. At
what point do I find with clearing Caesar? It just
doesn't eliminate all the other evidence. Who were the other
people in the room with guns in their hands and
powder burns on their face? Who else is there? There?
There are a few people, but right there at Kennedy,
with Kennedy, right there at I admitted, I admit it's
a problem, but it's uh, it's not a problem. You know,
(26:39):
just admits your hands lying and that that's the end
of the problem. Well, I don't admit that. I don't
think he is lying. I think he doesn't remember the crime.
I think he's a sincere person and got caught up
in something he has no idea about. When you and
I were there and we saw we saw a very
gentle man. He's an intellect, he had had a decent mind.
He didn't have a television in his uh cell. He
(27:00):
had a radio. He listened to NPR, listen to All
Things considered. Um, you know, I believe seer Hand remembers everything.
I believe seer Hand remembers everything. Here are sheer Hand's
handwritten notes given to Mike McCowan. He does not talk
about the moment of the shooting, but he talks about
(27:23):
his movements in the hotel. So you're saying that he
can turn the mind control on and turn it off.
I think they did a bunch of experiments in his
jail cell where they were able to hypnotize their hand
in a matter of five seconds, and they're able to
give him post hypnotic suggestions, which he carried out to
a t. They brought him out afterwards, and you know,
(27:44):
Diamond takes out his handkerchief, blows his nose and sir
Hand is climbing. You and I both know how smart
seer Hand is. He Oh, he was faking all that stuff.
I think he's faking it. Well, he remembers everything. So
we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna, We're gonna take a
tiny pause. Um'm thanking for your participation in this interaction.
(28:04):
I'm trying to get a word and that's why. Um so,
the man at the center of this whole thing, we
haven't talked a lot about him. Do you guys have
any reflections on I was mystified by your father's comment
on in the last episode. Tell me he said something
and I'm paraphrasing now, but I don't care who murdered him.
(28:27):
The important thing is that he was an amazing man
that was taken from us. And it seemed to me
those things just don't go together. If he's an amazing
person that's been taken from us, who murdered him and
why is it would seem to be the next question.
My dad was talking about Bobby Kennedy's words being more
important right now in our time, and I gotta say,
(28:52):
I that's that's how I feel. I'm more interested in
hearing Robert Mueller's words right now. That's what I'm interested in,
seguar Vidno, And I mean that does that clarify it
a little bit for you? Or not? Really? No? Because
if um, you know, I'm going to be a conspiracy
(29:14):
not here. But I believe that John Kennedy was murdered
by a conspiracy, and that probably if that happened and
they got away with it, then they're not going to
sit around and let his brother assented the presidency, and
that's something we need to know about. While we were
making this podcast, the word conspiracy theory changed in the society.
(29:37):
I mean, we started this podcast before mister Trump was elected,
and now, in my opinion, right now, it means Sandy
Hook didn't happen. It means the Parkland students are somehow
crisis actors. So to to promote any sort of conspiracy
feels a lot more dangerous right now than it did
(29:58):
when we started it this podcast. I don't understand what
that means. Then we shouldn't should we should We should
be careful about some of the stuff that that that
we're insinuating. We should make sure that it's built on
very very solid solid We should anyway. I mean, if
we're going to say the President of the United States
was killed by a conspiracy, we'd better be on solid ground,
(30:21):
right um. And the same with Martin Luther King and
Bob Kennedy. So I don't think I don't think that
ground has changed at all. Well, we disagree about how
solid the ground is. Well, I'm the Bob Kennedy case. Yeah,
because I agree with with Bill about the JFK case.
I mean, again, I think it's a it's a straight mob. Yet. Uh,
(30:43):
let's hear another song. Welcome back Rose, ladies. This one's
called Abraham Martin and gentlemen. Has anyone here seen my
(31:05):
old friend day Perham? Can you tell me where he's gone?
He freed a lot of people, but it seems that
good they die young and I just looked around and
(31:33):
he's gone. Has anyone here seen my old friend John?
(32:00):
Can you tell me where he's God? He freed a
lot of people, but it seems the good they die.
You and I just looked around and he's gone. Has
(32:49):
anyone here seen my old friend Martin? Can you tell
me where he's gone? He freed a lot of people,
(33:10):
but it seems the good they die, so, y'all, I
just looked around and he's gone. Didn't you lize the
things they stood for? Didn't they try to find some
(33:41):
good for you and me? And will be free some day?
I know it'll happen. Wonder as anyone hill seeing my
(34:09):
old friend boy? Can you tell me where he is gone?
You freed a lot of people, but it seems the
good they doe you. I thought I saw him walking
(34:41):
up over the hill with Abraham Martin and John gloory glory.
(35:11):
Hallelu yeah, glooory glory, halleluyah, glooory glory, halleluyah. His truth
this marching, Sir Bobby. Okay, So we'll take some questions,
(35:53):
and there's a microphone. Austin's coming. It's Austin to the rescue.
But I have some things, some questions from Twitter. Possibility
of having the case reopened. None, it won't be reopened.
Why do you say that there's no venue for it.
(36:15):
There's no it's past the point. The people who are
live back then, most of them are not alive. Um.
The statue of limitations is run on most things. Um,
not murder. Not murder. Well, sure, but there are the
crimes the police committed. The statute is run on those.
And there's there's no politician that would derive any benefit
(36:37):
from from doing this. So there's there's no way it
can happen. Really, we're just fighting over history at this point. Um,
did Bill thinks ESP was a sellout? Did I think? What?
Did you think I was a sellout? That's though it
occurred to me. I think you were right on target, Sack.
(37:00):
We thought it was a brilliant piece of broadcast journalism.
Good job. Thanks Dan. Okay, any questions, I have a question,
So I will say I lean more towards the incompetence
over conspiracy. But I am curious, after the conversation you
(37:20):
guys had about Gene Caesar, what the exonerating evidence is
beyond the polygraph because polygraphs are the science is kind
of mixed on this. And also like he didn't break
down and cry in front of you, but like, besides
those two things, what's the exonerating evidence? Again, it was
I needed a test or measurement to figure out how
much time me personally civilian investigator was going to spend
(37:41):
on this guy. And I'm telling you right now, this
guy was not taken off. He was not off balanced
by with me at any point during our many, many,
many interviews. I still talked to him. I talked to
him still. I've been on the phone to him fairly regularly.
I'm because now I'm now come and Bill will criticize
(38:01):
me for this, but I defend the guy. Now I
have his power of attorney. He gave me his power.
I'm godfather to his son. Yeah, he was so grateful
to me for getting him off the hook. He baby
godfather to a son four years after my book came out. Um, yeah,
into a guy for forty nine years has been accused
(38:23):
of murder when in fact he's an innocent man, wrongly accused.
I have a question for zach Um. So one of
the things that the podcast was missing was, of course
you meeting with Sir Hann, Right, That's something that both
Bill and Dan got to do. If you got to
meet with Sir Hann, what would you like to ask him?
I sent him questions. Um, I tried really hard to
(38:47):
get an interview with U with Sir Hann. He's a
he may be an NPR listener, but he's not a
podcast listener. Uh Now. I pitched Laurie Dousick really really
hard and hounded for a long time, and submitted questions
to Munier, his brother, who's sort of one of the
gate gatekeepers. He's been interviewed so many times over the years.
(39:12):
It's hard to know what I would ask him. Abel.
I was wondering if he had any theories about the
rescruction's role and then all this, because I guess it
was covered a bit and it just kind of fell
off after and I'm just wondering, like where they just
recruiters or like, what's the theory around this? I don't know.
(39:34):
It's one of those strange things that's sort of lurking
out there. Is if sir hand did fall into was
if his mind was manipulated, and I believe there's strong
evidence that it was. Who did he fall into how
did he fall into it? And there are various theories
that after he fell off the horse at the racetrack,
(39:54):
he went on a medical odyssey and may have stumbled
into the wrong doctor's office or maybe with his rosicrucian um,
you know, experiments, he got involved with some people who
you know, led him in that direction. I don't have
any evidence, so, uh, the answer is, I don't know.
(40:18):
I think it's bullshit. Dan Dan thinks he did it,
and Bill did it. Doesn't all right? Thanks everybody for CRIMA.
(40:44):
Crimetown is Zack Stewart Pontier and Marks Marlin. The RFK
Tapes is made in partnership with Cadence thirteen. For bonus content,
go to RFK tapes dot com. This episode was produced
by Jesse Rudoi, Max Miller Kolpa, and Kevin Shephard. Our
senior producer is me Austin Mitchell, editing by Mark Smarling.
(41:09):
This episode was mixed by Sam Bair, recording help from
Jeff O'Neill. Musical performances by Rosaline Eastman. Our title track
is Maria Tambien by Krungbin. Music supervision by Josh Kessler
and Dylan Bostick at Heavy Duty Projects. Our website is
designed by Kurt Courtney. Archival research by Brennan Reese. Thanks
(41:33):
to Emily Wiedemann, Green Card Pictures, Alessandro Santoro, Ryan Murdoch,
Mike Eastman, Michael Jaworski, Kate Hessler, Brendan Sullivan and the
team at Caden's Thirteen. If you like the RFK Tapes,
please consider leaving us a rating and review on Apple
Podcasts or wherever you listen. It really does help others
(41:54):
find out about the show. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram,
and Twitter at the RFKA Tapes thix
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