October 9, 2018 • 30 mins
On the night of Robert F. Kennedy’s assassination, waiter Vincent DiPierro told police that he saw a girl in a polka dot dress standing with Sirhan in the pantry of the Ambassador Hotel. Bill and Zac pay DiPierro a visit and hear an unbelievable story.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, Hey, Zach, here with a new bonus episode. Anyone
who listened to the series knows that I went on
a real journey of discovery over the course of the season,
and Bill and I ended up disagreeing on what we
thought happened in the pantry of the Ambassador Hotel. And
today I'm going to share one of the moments where
I started to question the conspiracy. It has to do
(00:21):
with the girl in the polka dot dress. In episode five,
you heard from Sandra Serrano, the young campaign worker who
saw a girl in the polka dot dress the night
RFK was assassinated. This girl came running down the stairs
in the back, came running down the stairs and said,
we've shot him. We've shot him. And I says, who
(00:41):
did you shoot? And she says, we've shot Senator Kennedy.
After a few days of looking for the girl, the
Los Angeles police brought Serrano to a guy with a
law detector, Sergeant Hank Hernandez. Hernandez bullied Serrano into changing
(01:08):
her story. But there was another person who said he
saw the girl in the polka dot dress, a waiter
by the name of Vincent de Piero. In episode five,
we played tape from his original LAPD interview, but you
didn't hear from him directly. And that's not because we
couldn't find Vincent de Piero. Bill and I did find
(01:34):
Vincent de Piero. We interviewed him, and I, well, I
guess the best way to put it is, I found
his story unbelievable. I'm Zach Stewart Pontier and this is
the RFK tapes star. The last name Vincent day Piero
(02:02):
is a really interesting guy, as as you and I
have discovered. Yeah, um, part time waiter at the Ambassador
Hotel you who are employed by home the Ambassador. He
is there that night. Um. His father calls him at
eleven thirty and says, hey, Vinnie, if you want to
see the Senator, it looks like he's winning tonight, come
on down. You can have a chance to to meet
(02:25):
Senator Kennedy. Nause never seen him, and he comes down
and he's hanging out in the pantry at the time
or a little before Kennedy's speech is done, and he
notices this guy over on a tray stacker was sir,
he was running by the trades. He was up on
(02:45):
the tray stand he was still obvious, and you could
see him at that sea. The only reason he was
noticing because the reason he notices him is that he's
standing with pretty girl. Which this girl wearing she had
a white either black or don violet or pokadis in
(03:11):
a white dress with black polka dots. All right? Was
the girl winnow in locasilius? What makes you say that black?
It looked like if she was hold it looked like
she was almost holding it. And then he walked towards
he sees her hang advancing and pulls out a gun
and fires at at Robert Kennedy one definite thirty one
(03:36):
and mister Kennedy. And after that I had brought out
in my face from his head because my glass saw. So.
He was an important witness because he saw the whole
thing from beginning to end, more or less, not everything,
but so he was an important witness to the police.
(03:57):
And they were fine with this story. But the girl
was her hand for the first week or so, and
then when all of a sudden, the girl with the
polka dot dress became an unwelcome story, someone just said, well,
somebody's got to go talk to Vinnie and tell him
that this part of the story is really no good.
(04:18):
My name is Charge, your name is da Pierre. That right,
and so he merited a session with Hank Hernandez. Yanks,
did you see a girl with a polka dot dress
looking at her hand that Kennedy was shocked? Yes, Vince,
(04:40):
did you make up a story about the girl and
the polka dot dress? You can go ahead. It's interesting
when you listen to that session. It's not as confrontational
as the Sandra Serrano, but young Vincent de Pierot, who's
also nineteen is it's really kind of mystified because he
(05:02):
keeps telling Hernandez that, no, I'm telling the truth. This
is what I saw. That's what I say. Hernande is saying, oh,
well you got this girl. You saw someone else and
and maybe you heard it from this Serranto girl. I
think will probably happened here is that you thought he
saw girl actor Sandy at at home and I didn't
see this is Rano. Is conceivable that after you talked
(05:24):
to Sandray said hey, I think I saw a girl
back there, and he finally convinces um de Piero that
maybe de Piero is confused himself. Maybe I did I
don't know a confusion, and I did. It's sort of sad.
(05:49):
And then finally Hernandez keeps at it till till de
Piero Soda gives up and said, yeah, I must have
gotten a story from Sandra Serrano. Well for your own information.
She's laying about it. Which is interesting because at the
end of Serrano's interview with Hernandez, he claims that she
got the story from Vincent de Pierro. So hank Hernandez
(06:13):
and his truth machine comes to something that couldn't possibly
be true. But that's not the most interesting thing about
de Piero. So then what happens at the so de
Piero and then says that he comes off the story
of the Polka uti right now, what happens at the trial?
Oh god, it seems obvious. The prosecution is calling witnesses
in a kind of times. He quince carrying the story
(06:35):
of that night through the ball room where Kennedy spoke,
to the kitchen where he was shot, and next to
the hospitals where he was kidding. Vincent de Piero is
brought to the trial your name, please, Vincent de Piero,
and David fitz is running the questions for the prosecution.
He puts them on the witness stand and he said, well,
you know, Vincent, tell us what happened that night. And
he tells the whole story about seeing Rann Trey Stacker
(06:57):
and coming forward and shooting Kennedy gone pointing towards the
senator and at that time I saw the flash of
the gun. Doesn't say a thing about the young woman. Okay,
so okay, He's told his story. And then Grant Cooper,
the attorney first her hand gets up and I was
going to ask a couple of perfunctory questions. He stated
that you are a student and part time waiter. Yes, Sam,
(07:20):
he really doesn't have anything to ask de Piero, but
he's got to pretend that he's doing something. So he says, well,
what was there that calls you to notice him? At
the time, there was there, I believe, a girl standing
within the area of Serehan. I can recall she was
wearing a polka dot dress, and all of a sudden,
(07:41):
the story just comes spilling out. Burnett early twenties. But
Cooper doesn't like the story of the girl in the
polka dot dress because that makes his client look even
more guilty, So he doesn't want this story hanging around.
Now you gave us. David also on the first of
July to Sergeant and Rique her Nande. So what he
does is he goes back and he reads De Piero
his testimony to Hank Hernande's question, you did not see
(08:05):
a girl in a black and white polka dot dress
standing beside Sir Han on that evening? Answer? No, Now,
were you telling Hank Ernande's the truth when you said
there was no girl in the poka dot dress? Yes, yes,
I was telling the truth then, so there was no girl. Yes,
there was no girl. Okay, So Cooper sits down. But
(08:27):
David fitz is ready for this eventuality. He has something
in his back pocket. I have a photograph, your honor.
Do you recognize that individual as anyone you have ever
seen before? I believe I saw her that night. Does
she seem to be the girl? Yes, I would think
she would be. So it's true, actually that there was
a girl in a poka dot dress. Are you telling
(08:48):
us in substance there was a girl standing near Sir
Han at the time of the shooting, Sir yes, sir. Now,
De Piero was first said there wasn't. Then he said
there was. Now he said there wasn't. Now fitz Is
get him to say, well, there really was a girl
in the polka dot dress, but it was this girl.
The girl depicted in the photographs is one Valerie Shoulty.
I understand, a Santa Barbara girl. I have nothing further.
(09:13):
They hold up a picture of Valerie Shulty and they
get her to come and testify the next day. State
your name plus Valerie Shulty. Valerie Shulty was in fact
in the pantry following Kennedy, would you tell us what
you were wearing on this evening? In question, I was
wearing a green dress with yellow polka dots. And she
wore a green dress with large yellow splotches on it,
which they called polka dots. And she had blonde hair,
(09:36):
and she was on crutches. The fact that you were
on crutches that was a holdover from muski accident. Yes,
and she was never nears her hand. But they get
Vincent de Pierot to say on the witness stand that
Valerie Shulty was the girl in the polka dot dress
that he saw and everybody bought it once mysterious roll
(09:57):
in the polka dot dress was among the daysitness is
of the Los Angeles trial of Sarah and Sarah's and
one of the main witnesses was a pretty blow a
so called girl and the polka dot dress, who was
at the scene. Her name is Valerie Shoulty. She said
she was there that night and was wearing a polka
dot dress. Who've actually brought it to court and showed everybody.
The prosecution and defense agree she had nothing to do
(10:18):
with the assassination, that probably no one shouted they've shot him,
and that there was no conspiracy. It was absurd because
not a single witness said this woman was wearing a
green dress and running across the room. She was on crutches.
It's impossible. So it's probably the most bizarre moment in
the trial of Sirhan Sirhand, the reappearance of the girl.
(10:43):
But that's not what makes Vincent an interesting guy. So
you want to tell the story of our interaction with
Oh my goodness, m yikes, it's at least in the
(11:12):
pattern of my micro Oh well, I'm happy to be there. Um,
So I'm here and he's there. So Bill and I
went out to sunny Los Angeles to interview Vincent de Piero,
the waiter who said he saw a girl in a
polka dot dress and then said he didn't see a
girl in a polka dot dress, and then said he
did because Bill booked a room for the interview in
(11:35):
a hotel near the airport. I am realizing now that
a pretty funny thing that we didn't think about getting
a hotel near the airport and recording a sound interview
is gonna be planes, not that many there every once
in a while, it's gonna be planes. So we're just
gonna have to all see well authenticity. Yeah, yeah, hopefully
(12:09):
it won't be in the moment. He's just coming off
of his story about the girl on the punk and
I dressed I worked for Ford, I worked for President Ford,
I worked for Obama, and I was going to work
for Bobby. Actually it was funny. Do you mind if
you start recording? Vincent de Piero is in his late
(12:30):
sixties with silver hair. He's dressed casually in short cin
Apollo share. Almost immediately he began to tell us a story.
How I got started um with Bobby was my dad
was really good friends with Pierre Salinger. Pierre Salinger was
one of Robert Kennedy's campaign managers. And then when Bobby
(12:52):
announced in March, Pierre called my dad and says, hey,
I think your your son wants to be part of
the Bobby Kennedy thing. So he asked me and I said, yeah, sure.
So as of April first, I flew to Indiana, met
Bobby there, and unfortunately I was there the night that
(13:13):
he made the speech with about Marth Luther King being killed.
And I was with him basically all the time from
there and on until that night and the Sunday before
we were out on the putting green at the Ambassador.
It was Rosie Greer, Bobby Kennedy, my dad, and me.
(13:38):
So anybody could have walked up to us and said, yeah, bang,
you know you're dead, but nobody thought that. Nobody was
even thinking that. And we were all talking. So Bobby says,
you're in school, right, and I said yeah. He says,
how about transferring to Georgetown? So why aren't I go
(13:59):
to Georgetown? He says, you don't want to be an
next assistant to the next president. And I almost dropped
my pants. I Mean, it was like I couldn't believe it.
I was really impressed that he saw me as that,
and that was how our relationship developed. I mean, he
and I became pretty much friends. D Piero tells us
(14:28):
that the night of the California Primary, he was studying
for finals, and he had called my dad several times.
So I think it's like the third time he called
my father. My dad calls, he says he wants you
to come. He's pretty pissed off. He says he better
show up. So I got dressed, I went to the hotel.
I got there about a quarter of twelve. So he
(14:51):
looks at me and he goes, I see you're here.
I said, yeah, it feels that's insund too, you know,
happy about I said, I'm here, I'm here. So we
he was pleased, thanks to all of you. And it's
onto Chicago and let's window saw him coming down the
incline and as soon as I could, I put my
(15:13):
arm around him. So I had my arm around Bobby,
Paul Schrebe was like right to my left. Um, Caesar's
Chavash was down the way a little bit, Rosie Greer,
Raypherd Johnson, all these people were there, and I'm sure
(15:37):
and Bobby shook my hand. I says, I see it
at the party, That's what he said. Shook two more
people's hands, and then I saw the gun come from
the right side of my eye, and I saw sir
hand with the gun in his hand up to his head.
(16:00):
I saw the flash. I saw I was immediately splashed
in my face with the blood. Second bullet is complete,
right side went limp. He leaned back into my arms.
Third bullet went through the top of his jacket and
into Paul's head, who then started falling on top of
(16:20):
me on my left side. Now I have Bobby in
my arms. The FBI believes that the fourth shot went
through my shirt. They think that it missed me by
a couple of millimeters. At the he says, I was
lucky enough to be show and I know that the
(16:45):
next bullet that came out went into another person, and
the final bullet went to the ceiling. Though I saw
that was so every bullet that came out of that gun,
I saw him out. Vincent's story has changed over the
years because his original story is he didn't see the
(17:06):
first couple of shots um and now all of a
sudden he sees the first shot and the gun is
right up against Kennedy's head. This is a serious misrepresentation.
You're very clear on all those bullets. Yes, um, what
do you feel like you've been consistent over the years between,
(17:29):
To the best of my recollection, that's that's how I
remember what had happened that night. But you probably assume
that the statements you made back then right after him
we're happened. We're absolutely accurate. Absolutely, do you want to
hear it here? What here? You're a statement back when
you're nineteen? Sure, I didn't know they had that old courting.
(17:50):
Oh yeah, shot, pretty shot is definite thirty one, that
mister Kennedy. And after that I had brought out in
my face from what do you think? Well, the only
thing I think as I was in shock, I mean,
(18:11):
I don't remember. Maybe when I went home and I relaxed,
I maybe I remembered it better because I remember, maybe
my mind cleared up. But I was so petrified. Then
Bill and I played DPR. Another part of his original
police interview, he had just told us that he'd been
working with Kennedy for months and that the reason he
went to the Ambassador was because Kennedy was asking specifically
(18:34):
for him. Father called you Why did your father call him?
Because he said to come on down and see Kennedy?
All right, because I've never seen him he left your home. Man,
about why did your father call you? Because I had
never seen Kennedy. That's that's a strange thing to say.
(18:54):
Every time I met him was like a new experience.
I mean, I had been around him so much. But
I don't know, I can't explain that. Um that was
like an expression, almost I'm going to go see Senator Kenny.
I'm going to go meet Senator Kennedy. That's the only
way I could probably explain that statement. You don't mention
(19:19):
that you were working for Kennedy though no I know,
and nobody asked me that question. We did finally get
him to admit that Valerie Shulty could not possibly have
been the woman that he saw next to her hand,
but that it took a lot of doing. Valerie was
the actual girl that I actually saw. I mean that
(19:39):
that's the girl that I put the face. That was
the girl I remember. And she was standing near sir hand.
But she okay, let me let me disagree with you
on that, Okay, Okay. She came in behind of Kennedy
and was never anywhere near sir hand and that your
description of that night bore no likeness to her. She
(20:01):
had blonde hair, she was on crutches, and a green
dress and yellow splotches. That's not the girl you described.
It was a white dress with dark spots. Yeah, white dress,
had a bib collar and had black polka dots or
maybe purple polka dots. So I'm thinking they did a
little bait and switch that I don't know. I only
(20:23):
testified to what I saw, yes, and I'm not about
to after all these years, it's not about to change that.
But what I'm saying is you told the truth. Yes,
when I saw I saw when I subscribe that girl,
you described her correctly. Yeah, it's interesting because when I
didn't know she was on crutches, But it was the
(20:45):
same girl's face that I saw that I identified. So,
but it could not possibly have been Valerie Shoalty because
Valerie Shoulty was on the other end of that room.
It was never in the end of the room where
you saw the woman. So if if you take that
as a reality, someone's playing a game. After instad nineteen,
(21:06):
a lot of hormones, you know, you're looking at chicks
all the time, and you maybe I got confused with
the faces, but I remember seeing her and she stood
out in my head, and maybe that maybe I took
her face and put it on that dress. A lot
of things could have happened. I mean, I don't know.
I really can't explain it. So who what do you
(21:28):
think happened? I think Sirhan killed Robert Kennedy. I would
say one hundred percent because I remember that first shot.
And I want to say back to you, that is
someone who has worked for over thirty years on this
case and done a lot of reading and a lot
of investigating and going through the police files which were
(21:50):
hidden from everybody for twenty years. And I want to
say to you, there are people on the other side
who feel pain and anger when someone dismisses the work
that's been done in this case, because there's a lot
of serious unanswered questions. Okay. To respond to that, I
(22:10):
would say this, I can put the gun in Sir
Han's hand. He did kill the senator. To me, in
my eyes, in my heart, in my soul, that's what
I feel. It's it's hard to refute something that you
see that horrific. So for me. It was being a
(22:34):
nineteen year old and looking at my future die basically
on the floor. Because I would have been working for him.
My life would have been totally different. Thank you very much,
Thank you, thank your great weekend you took. At a
(23:00):
certain point, he had me convince really, yeah, I don't know.
He talked to all these presidents. Well he believes it.
He talked to like that. He talks all these presidents
like that. I didn't know what was what after a while,
I really didn't really. Oh man, So I get to
(23:30):
me that it muddies up this whole thing even even more.
And I guess it doesn't seem does it to you?
How does it modi? Um? Because here's a guy who
who says, you know, he's one of the main witnesses
who says he saw this woman in a polka dot dress,
and now we sat in a room together and he
(23:52):
just a lot, you know, we sat in a room
where he misrepresented his history with Robert Kennedy. He misrepresented
all a lot of stuff, but he did says he
didn't misrepresent his history with Robert Kennedy the night of
the murder. And I don't find any reason to believe
that he misrepresented what he saw. He witnessed a murder
(24:13):
take place. He had no need to embellish anything if
he wanted to attract attention, no need at all to
embellish anything. So my feeling is the night of the murder,
when the police were asking him questions, he was telling
him what he saw, and so I don't just because
he's lying to us now and trying to enhance his
relationship with Kennedy is not a reason for me to
(24:35):
disbelieve what he said to the police that night. For me,
it does call into question what he said to the
police that night. Here's a guy who co opts other
people's stories, who just so happened to have heard this
story about the girl in the puggat eyed dress from
Santa Serrano just minutes before his own police interview. That's
what she told us. Then I was sitting next to Vincent.
(25:00):
The cops are like, don't talk to each other. We're young, right.
I said, why are you here? He said, I was
in the kitchen and I said, oh man. And I
say He's like, why are you here? And I said,
I don't know. I think because this is this is,
this is what happened to me, and he said, well,
(25:23):
what did they look like? And so I told him
she was wearing a white dressed with polka dots on it,
black polkadots and he said, no, shit, Yeah, he said
I've seen that girl. And I said you did, and
he said, yeah, she was in the in the kitchen.
(25:46):
Then the cops seen us talking, and the cops said,
stopped talking. So we stopped talking to each other and
never talked to him again, never seen them again. That
was the end of it. In the RFK case, everyone
seems to find whatever they're looking for from a witness
(26:07):
like Vincent de Pierro. Bill dismisses Dapiero's claims about seeing
the first shot pressed against Kennedy's head, but he still
believes Dapiero saw the girl in the polka dot dress.
Those on the other side of the debate dismissed Dapiero's
polka dot dress claims, but believe him when he says
that the first shot was fired into Kennedy's head at
point blank range. They say that supports their theory that
(26:30):
Arhan acted alone. The one thing both sides can agree
on is that Dapiero is lying about some things and
telling the truth about some others. Not exactly the most
reliable witness, but that doesn't stop Dapiero from telling his story,
and it doesn't stop people from believing the parts they
want to believe. Leaving the ballroom through the kitchen, Bobby
(26:53):
was shot and mortally wounded. Standing near him was nineteen
year old Vincent d'piero. Tell us, when you told me
the other night about why you were there, what happened? Well,
I was working for Robert Kennedy from proximately April first
until June fifth. This is Depiero on Hardball with Chris Matthews.
(27:18):
Robert had asked where was I, and I said, tell him,
I'm studying for my finals. I saw this gun literally
come up, and the gun literally was inches away from
his head. Did you catch Senator Kennedy as he felt?
(27:40):
What was what were you doing at that moment? Yeah?
He fell backwards and I put my arms out and
I caught him. Do you have any doubt from the
beginning that it was Sirhan Sirhan who shot and killed
and mortally wounded Robert Kennedy. No, I have zero doubt, mister.
I'm so glad I met you, sir. It's not her
(28:01):
to have you. Thanks Chris. When we return, let me
finish tonight with at Night in Los Angres, my own
viewers about that, My dog thoughts. A man That's Grimetown
(28:28):
is me Zack Stewart Pontier and Mark Smirley. The RFK
Tapes is made in partnership with Cadence thirteen. For bonus content,
check out our website at RFK tapes dot com. This
episode was produced by Kevin Shephard, Ula Culpa and Bill Claimer.
Our senior producer is Austin Mitchell, editing by Mark Smirling,
(28:49):
fact checking by Jennifer Blackman's. This episode was mixed and
sound designed by Ernie Indradette, music by Kenny Quciak, additional
music by John Qusian. Our title track is Maria Tambien
by Krumbin. Our credit track this week is It's No
News by Davis Hamilton, performed by Melvin Davis. Music supervision
(29:18):
by Josh Kessler and Dylan Bostick at Heavy Duty Projects.
Voice overcasting for the trial reenactments by Shelley Chanoy. Vincent
d Piero was played by Andy Schmelko. The lawyers were
played by Jim Mullins and Valley Shulty was played by
Shelley Schanol. Archival footage courtesy of the California State Archives.
(29:38):
Archival research by Brennan Reese. Our website is designed by
Kurt Courtney, thanks to Emily Wiederman, Green Card Pictures, Alessandro Santro,
Shane O'Sullivan, Brad Johnson, and the team at Caden's Thirteen.
If you like the RFK Tapes, please consider leaving us
(29:59):
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It really helps others find out about the show. You
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the RFKA Tapes. It's the everybody. It's
Hey, Hey, Zach, here with a new bonus episode. Anyone
who listened to the series knows that I went on
a real journey of discovery over the course of the season,
and Bill and I ended up disagreeing on what we
thought happened in the pantry of the Ambassador Hotel. And
today I'm going to share one of the moments where
I started to question the conspiracy. It has to do
(00:21):
with the girl in the polka dot dress. In episode five,
you heard from Sandra Serrano, the young campaign worker who
saw a girl in the polka dot dress the night
RFK was assassinated. This girl came running down the stairs
in the back, came running down the stairs and said,
we've shot him. We've shot him. And I says, who
(00:41):
did you shoot? And she says, we've shot Senator Kennedy.
After a few days of looking for the girl, the
Los Angeles police brought Serrano to a guy with a
law detector, Sergeant Hank Hernandez. Hernandez bullied Serrano into changing
(01:08):
her story. But there was another person who said he
saw the girl in the polka dot dress, a waiter
by the name of Vincent de Piero. In episode five,
we played tape from his original LAPD interview, but you
didn't hear from him directly. And that's not because we
couldn't find Vincent de Piero. Bill and I did find
(01:34):
Vincent de Piero. We interviewed him, and I, well, I
guess the best way to put it is, I found
his story unbelievable. I'm Zach Stewart Pontier and this is
the RFK tapes star. The last name Vincent day Piero
(02:02):
is a really interesting guy, as as you and I
have discovered. Yeah, um, part time waiter at the Ambassador
Hotel you who are employed by home the Ambassador. He
is there that night. Um. His father calls him at
eleven thirty and says, hey, Vinnie, if you want to
see the Senator, it looks like he's winning tonight, come
on down. You can have a chance to to meet
(02:25):
Senator Kennedy. Nause never seen him, and he comes down
and he's hanging out in the pantry at the time
or a little before Kennedy's speech is done, and he
notices this guy over on a tray stacker was sir,
he was running by the trades. He was up on
(02:45):
the tray stand he was still obvious, and you could
see him at that sea. The only reason he was
noticing because the reason he notices him is that he's
standing with pretty girl. Which this girl wearing she had
a white either black or don violet or pokadis in
(03:11):
a white dress with black polka dots. All right? Was
the girl winnow in locasilius? What makes you say that black?
It looked like if she was hold it looked like
she was almost holding it. And then he walked towards
he sees her hang advancing and pulls out a gun
and fires at at Robert Kennedy one definite thirty one
(03:36):
and mister Kennedy. And after that I had brought out
in my face from his head because my glass saw. So.
He was an important witness because he saw the whole
thing from beginning to end, more or less, not everything,
but so he was an important witness to the police.
(03:57):
And they were fine with this story. But the girl
was her hand for the first week or so, and
then when all of a sudden, the girl with the
polka dot dress became an unwelcome story, someone just said, well,
somebody's got to go talk to Vinnie and tell him
that this part of the story is really no good.
(04:18):
My name is Charge, your name is da Pierre. That right,
and so he merited a session with Hank Hernandez. Yanks,
did you see a girl with a polka dot dress
looking at her hand that Kennedy was shocked? Yes, Vince,
(04:40):
did you make up a story about the girl and
the polka dot dress? You can go ahead. It's interesting
when you listen to that session. It's not as confrontational
as the Sandra Serrano, but young Vincent de Pierot, who's
also nineteen is it's really kind of mystified because he
(05:02):
keeps telling Hernandez that, no, I'm telling the truth. This
is what I saw. That's what I say. Hernande is saying, oh,
well you got this girl. You saw someone else and
and maybe you heard it from this Serranto girl. I
think will probably happened here is that you thought he
saw girl actor Sandy at at home and I didn't
see this is Rano. Is conceivable that after you talked
(05:24):
to Sandray said hey, I think I saw a girl
back there, and he finally convinces um de Piero that
maybe de Piero is confused himself. Maybe I did I
don't know a confusion, and I did. It's sort of sad.
(05:49):
And then finally Hernandez keeps at it till till de
Piero Soda gives up and said, yeah, I must have
gotten a story from Sandra Serrano. Well for your own information.
She's laying about it. Which is interesting because at the
end of Serrano's interview with Hernandez, he claims that she
got the story from Vincent de Pierro. So hank Hernandez
(06:13):
and his truth machine comes to something that couldn't possibly
be true. But that's not the most interesting thing about
de Piero. So then what happens at the so de
Piero and then says that he comes off the story
of the Polka uti right now, what happens at the trial?
Oh god, it seems obvious. The prosecution is calling witnesses
in a kind of times. He quince carrying the story
(06:35):
of that night through the ball room where Kennedy spoke,
to the kitchen where he was shot, and next to
the hospitals where he was kidding. Vincent de Piero is
brought to the trial your name, please, Vincent de Piero,
and David fitz is running the questions for the prosecution.
He puts them on the witness stand and he said, well,
you know, Vincent, tell us what happened that night. And
he tells the whole story about seeing Rann Trey Stacker
(06:57):
and coming forward and shooting Kennedy gone pointing towards the
senator and at that time I saw the flash of
the gun. Doesn't say a thing about the young woman. Okay,
so okay, He's told his story. And then Grant Cooper,
the attorney first her hand gets up and I was
going to ask a couple of perfunctory questions. He stated
that you are a student and part time waiter. Yes, Sam,
(07:20):
he really doesn't have anything to ask de Piero, but
he's got to pretend that he's doing something. So he says, well,
what was there that calls you to notice him? At
the time, there was there, I believe, a girl standing
within the area of Serehan. I can recall she was
wearing a polka dot dress, and all of a sudden,
(07:41):
the story just comes spilling out. Burnett early twenties. But
Cooper doesn't like the story of the girl in the
polka dot dress because that makes his client look even
more guilty, So he doesn't want this story hanging around.
Now you gave us. David also on the first of
July to Sergeant and Rique her Nande. So what he
does is he goes back and he reads De Piero
his testimony to Hank Hernande's question, you did not see
(08:05):
a girl in a black and white polka dot dress
standing beside Sir Han on that evening? Answer? No, Now,
were you telling Hank Ernande's the truth when you said
there was no girl in the poka dot dress? Yes, yes,
I was telling the truth then, so there was no girl. Yes,
there was no girl. Okay, So Cooper sits down. But
(08:27):
David fitz is ready for this eventuality. He has something
in his back pocket. I have a photograph, your honor.
Do you recognize that individual as anyone you have ever
seen before? I believe I saw her that night. Does
she seem to be the girl? Yes, I would think
she would be. So it's true, actually that there was
a girl in a poka dot dress. Are you telling
(08:48):
us in substance there was a girl standing near Sir
Han at the time of the shooting, Sir yes, sir. Now,
De Piero was first said there wasn't. Then he said
there was. Now he said there wasn't. Now fitz Is
get him to say, well, there really was a girl
in the polka dot dress, but it was this girl.
The girl depicted in the photographs is one Valerie Shoulty.
I understand, a Santa Barbara girl. I have nothing further.
(09:13):
They hold up a picture of Valerie Shulty and they
get her to come and testify the next day. State
your name plus Valerie Shulty. Valerie Shulty was in fact
in the pantry following Kennedy, would you tell us what
you were wearing on this evening? In question, I was
wearing a green dress with yellow polka dots. And she
wore a green dress with large yellow splotches on it,
which they called polka dots. And she had blonde hair,
(09:36):
and she was on crutches. The fact that you were
on crutches that was a holdover from muski accident. Yes,
and she was never nears her hand. But they get
Vincent de Pierot to say on the witness stand that
Valerie Shulty was the girl in the polka dot dress
that he saw and everybody bought it once mysterious roll
(09:57):
in the polka dot dress was among the daysitness is
of the Los Angeles trial of Sarah and Sarah's and
one of the main witnesses was a pretty blow a
so called girl and the polka dot dress, who was
at the scene. Her name is Valerie Shoulty. She said
she was there that night and was wearing a polka
dot dress. Who've actually brought it to court and showed everybody.
The prosecution and defense agree she had nothing to do
(10:18):
with the assassination, that probably no one shouted they've shot him,
and that there was no conspiracy. It was absurd because
not a single witness said this woman was wearing a
green dress and running across the room. She was on crutches.
It's impossible. So it's probably the most bizarre moment in
the trial of Sirhan Sirhand, the reappearance of the girl.
(10:43):
But that's not what makes Vincent an interesting guy. So
you want to tell the story of our interaction with
Oh my goodness, m yikes, it's at least in the
(11:12):
pattern of my micro Oh well, I'm happy to be there. Um,
So I'm here and he's there. So Bill and I
went out to sunny Los Angeles to interview Vincent de Piero,
the waiter who said he saw a girl in a
polka dot dress and then said he didn't see a
girl in a polka dot dress, and then said he
did because Bill booked a room for the interview in
(11:35):
a hotel near the airport. I am realizing now that
a pretty funny thing that we didn't think about getting
a hotel near the airport and recording a sound interview
is gonna be planes, not that many there every once
in a while, it's gonna be planes. So we're just
gonna have to all see well authenticity. Yeah, yeah, hopefully
(12:09):
it won't be in the moment. He's just coming off
of his story about the girl on the punk and
I dressed I worked for Ford, I worked for President Ford,
I worked for Obama, and I was going to work
for Bobby. Actually it was funny. Do you mind if
you start recording? Vincent de Piero is in his late
(12:30):
sixties with silver hair. He's dressed casually in short cin
Apollo share. Almost immediately he began to tell us a story.
How I got started um with Bobby was my dad
was really good friends with Pierre Salinger. Pierre Salinger was
one of Robert Kennedy's campaign managers. And then when Bobby
(12:52):
announced in March, Pierre called my dad and says, hey,
I think your your son wants to be part of
the Bobby Kennedy thing. So he asked me and I said, yeah, sure.
So as of April first, I flew to Indiana, met
Bobby there, and unfortunately I was there the night that
(13:13):
he made the speech with about Marth Luther King being killed.
And I was with him basically all the time from
there and on until that night and the Sunday before
we were out on the putting green at the Ambassador.
It was Rosie Greer, Bobby Kennedy, my dad, and me.
(13:38):
So anybody could have walked up to us and said, yeah, bang,
you know you're dead, but nobody thought that. Nobody was
even thinking that. And we were all talking. So Bobby says,
you're in school, right, and I said yeah. He says,
how about transferring to Georgetown? So why aren't I go
(13:59):
to Georgetown? He says, you don't want to be an
next assistant to the next president. And I almost dropped
my pants. I Mean, it was like I couldn't believe it.
I was really impressed that he saw me as that,
and that was how our relationship developed. I mean, he
and I became pretty much friends. D Piero tells us
(14:28):
that the night of the California Primary, he was studying
for finals, and he had called my dad several times.
So I think it's like the third time he called
my father. My dad calls, he says he wants you
to come. He's pretty pissed off. He says he better
show up. So I got dressed, I went to the hotel.
I got there about a quarter of twelve. So he
(14:51):
looks at me and he goes, I see you're here.
I said, yeah, it feels that's insund too, you know,
happy about I said, I'm here, I'm here. So we
he was pleased, thanks to all of you. And it's
onto Chicago and let's window saw him coming down the
incline and as soon as I could, I put my
(15:13):
arm around him. So I had my arm around Bobby,
Paul Schrebe was like right to my left. Um, Caesar's
Chavash was down the way a little bit, Rosie Greer,
Raypherd Johnson, all these people were there, and I'm sure
(15:37):
and Bobby shook my hand. I says, I see it
at the party, That's what he said. Shook two more
people's hands, and then I saw the gun come from
the right side of my eye, and I saw sir
hand with the gun in his hand up to his head.
(16:00):
I saw the flash. I saw I was immediately splashed
in my face with the blood. Second bullet is complete,
right side went limp. He leaned back into my arms.
Third bullet went through the top of his jacket and
into Paul's head, who then started falling on top of
(16:20):
me on my left side. Now I have Bobby in
my arms. The FBI believes that the fourth shot went
through my shirt. They think that it missed me by
a couple of millimeters. At the he says, I was
lucky enough to be show and I know that the
(16:45):
next bullet that came out went into another person, and
the final bullet went to the ceiling. Though I saw
that was so every bullet that came out of that gun,
I saw him out. Vincent's story has changed over the
years because his original story is he didn't see the
(17:06):
first couple of shots um and now all of a
sudden he sees the first shot and the gun is
right up against Kennedy's head. This is a serious misrepresentation.
You're very clear on all those bullets. Yes, um, what
do you feel like you've been consistent over the years between,
(17:29):
To the best of my recollection, that's that's how I
remember what had happened that night. But you probably assume
that the statements you made back then right after him
we're happened. We're absolutely accurate. Absolutely, do you want to
hear it here? What here? You're a statement back when
you're nineteen? Sure, I didn't know they had that old courting.
(17:50):
Oh yeah, shot, pretty shot is definite thirty one, that
mister Kennedy. And after that I had brought out in
my face from what do you think? Well, the only
thing I think as I was in shock, I mean,
(18:11):
I don't remember. Maybe when I went home and I relaxed,
I maybe I remembered it better because I remember, maybe
my mind cleared up. But I was so petrified. Then
Bill and I played DPR. Another part of his original
police interview, he had just told us that he'd been
working with Kennedy for months and that the reason he
went to the Ambassador was because Kennedy was asking specifically
(18:34):
for him. Father called you Why did your father call him?
Because he said to come on down and see Kennedy?
All right, because I've never seen him he left your home. Man,
about why did your father call you? Because I had
never seen Kennedy. That's that's a strange thing to say.
(18:54):
Every time I met him was like a new experience.
I mean, I had been around him so much. But
I don't know, I can't explain that. Um that was
like an expression, almost I'm going to go see Senator Kenny.
I'm going to go meet Senator Kennedy. That's the only
way I could probably explain that statement. You don't mention
(19:19):
that you were working for Kennedy though no I know,
and nobody asked me that question. We did finally get
him to admit that Valerie Shulty could not possibly have
been the woman that he saw next to her hand,
but that it took a lot of doing. Valerie was
the actual girl that I actually saw. I mean that
(19:39):
that's the girl that I put the face. That was
the girl I remember. And she was standing near sir hand.
But she okay, let me let me disagree with you
on that, Okay, Okay. She came in behind of Kennedy
and was never anywhere near sir hand and that your
description of that night bore no likeness to her. She
(20:01):
had blonde hair, she was on crutches, and a green
dress and yellow splotches. That's not the girl you described.
It was a white dress with dark spots. Yeah, white dress,
had a bib collar and had black polka dots or
maybe purple polka dots. So I'm thinking they did a
little bait and switch that I don't know. I only
(20:23):
testified to what I saw, yes, and I'm not about
to after all these years, it's not about to change that.
But what I'm saying is you told the truth. Yes,
when I saw I saw when I subscribe that girl,
you described her correctly. Yeah, it's interesting because when I
didn't know she was on crutches, But it was the
(20:45):
same girl's face that I saw that I identified. So,
but it could not possibly have been Valerie Shoalty because
Valerie Shoulty was on the other end of that room.
It was never in the end of the room where
you saw the woman. So if if you take that
as a reality, someone's playing a game. After instad nineteen,
(21:06):
a lot of hormones, you know, you're looking at chicks
all the time, and you maybe I got confused with
the faces, but I remember seeing her and she stood
out in my head, and maybe that maybe I took
her face and put it on that dress. A lot
of things could have happened. I mean, I don't know.
I really can't explain it. So who what do you
(21:28):
think happened? I think Sirhan killed Robert Kennedy. I would
say one hundred percent because I remember that first shot.
And I want to say back to you, that is
someone who has worked for over thirty years on this
case and done a lot of reading and a lot
of investigating and going through the police files which were
(21:50):
hidden from everybody for twenty years. And I want to
say to you, there are people on the other side
who feel pain and anger when someone dismisses the work
that's been done in this case, because there's a lot
of serious unanswered questions. Okay. To respond to that, I
(22:10):
would say this, I can put the gun in Sir
Han's hand. He did kill the senator. To me, in
my eyes, in my heart, in my soul, that's what
I feel. It's it's hard to refute something that you
see that horrific. So for me. It was being a
(22:34):
nineteen year old and looking at my future die basically
on the floor. Because I would have been working for him.
My life would have been totally different. Thank you very much,
Thank you, thank your great weekend you took. At a
(23:00):
certain point, he had me convince really, yeah, I don't know.
He talked to all these presidents. Well he believes it.
He talked to like that. He talks all these presidents
like that. I didn't know what was what after a while,
I really didn't really. Oh man, So I get to
(23:30):
me that it muddies up this whole thing even even more.
And I guess it doesn't seem does it to you?
How does it modi? Um? Because here's a guy who
who says, you know, he's one of the main witnesses
who says he saw this woman in a polka dot dress,
and now we sat in a room together and he
(23:52):
just a lot, you know, we sat in a room
where he misrepresented his history with Robert Kennedy. He misrepresented
all a lot of stuff, but he did says he
didn't misrepresent his history with Robert Kennedy the night of
the murder. And I don't find any reason to believe
that he misrepresented what he saw. He witnessed a murder
(24:13):
take place. He had no need to embellish anything if
he wanted to attract attention, no need at all to
embellish anything. So my feeling is the night of the murder,
when the police were asking him questions, he was telling
him what he saw, and so I don't just because
he's lying to us now and trying to enhance his
relationship with Kennedy is not a reason for me to
(24:35):
disbelieve what he said to the police that night. For me,
it does call into question what he said to the
police that night. Here's a guy who co opts other
people's stories, who just so happened to have heard this
story about the girl in the puggat eyed dress from
Santa Serrano just minutes before his own police interview. That's
what she told us. Then I was sitting next to Vincent.
(25:00):
The cops are like, don't talk to each other. We're young, right.
I said, why are you here? He said, I was
in the kitchen and I said, oh man. And I
say He's like, why are you here? And I said,
I don't know. I think because this is this is,
this is what happened to me, and he said, well,
(25:23):
what did they look like? And so I told him
she was wearing a white dressed with polka dots on it,
black polkadots and he said, no, shit, Yeah, he said
I've seen that girl. And I said you did, and
he said, yeah, she was in the in the kitchen.
(25:46):
Then the cops seen us talking, and the cops said,
stopped talking. So we stopped talking to each other and
never talked to him again, never seen them again. That
was the end of it. In the RFK case, everyone
seems to find whatever they're looking for from a witness
(26:07):
like Vincent de Pierro. Bill dismisses Dapiero's claims about seeing
the first shot pressed against Kennedy's head, but he still
believes Dapiero saw the girl in the polka dot dress.
Those on the other side of the debate dismissed Dapiero's
polka dot dress claims, but believe him when he says
that the first shot was fired into Kennedy's head at
point blank range. They say that supports their theory that
(26:30):
Arhan acted alone. The one thing both sides can agree
on is that Dapiero is lying about some things and
telling the truth about some others. Not exactly the most
reliable witness, but that doesn't stop Dapiero from telling his story,
and it doesn't stop people from believing the parts they
want to believe. Leaving the ballroom through the kitchen, Bobby
(26:53):
was shot and mortally wounded. Standing near him was nineteen
year old Vincent d'piero. Tell us, when you told me
the other night about why you were there, what happened? Well,
I was working for Robert Kennedy from proximately April first
until June fifth. This is Depiero on Hardball with Chris Matthews.
(27:18):
Robert had asked where was I, and I said, tell him,
I'm studying for my finals. I saw this gun literally
come up, and the gun literally was inches away from
his head. Did you catch Senator Kennedy as he felt?
(27:40):
What was what were you doing at that moment? Yeah?
He fell backwards and I put my arms out and
I caught him. Do you have any doubt from the
beginning that it was Sirhan Sirhan who shot and killed
and mortally wounded Robert Kennedy. No, I have zero doubt, mister.
I'm so glad I met you, sir. It's not her
(28:01):
to have you. Thanks Chris. When we return, let me
finish tonight with at Night in Los Angres, my own
viewers about that, My dog thoughts. A man That's Grimetown
(28:28):
is me Zack Stewart Pontier and Mark Smirley. The RFK
Tapes is made in partnership with Cadence thirteen. For bonus content,
check out our website at RFK tapes dot com. This
episode was produced by Kevin Shephard, Ula Culpa and Bill Claimer.
Our senior producer is Austin Mitchell, editing by Mark Smirling,
(28:49):
fact checking by Jennifer Blackman's. This episode was mixed and
sound designed by Ernie Indradette, music by Kenny Quciak, additional
music by John Qusian. Our title track is Maria Tambien
by Krumbin. Our credit track this week is It's No
News by Davis Hamilton, performed by Melvin Davis. Music supervision
(29:18):
by Josh Kessler and Dylan Bostick at Heavy Duty Projects.
Voice overcasting for the trial reenactments by Shelley Chanoy. Vincent
d Piero was played by Andy Schmelko. The lawyers were
played by Jim Mullins and Valley Shulty was played by
Shelley Schanol. Archival footage courtesy of the California State Archives.
(29:38):
Archival research by Brennan Reese. Our website is designed by
Kurt Courtney, thanks to Emily Wiederman, Green Card Pictures, Alessandro Santro,
Shane O'Sullivan, Brad Johnson, and the team at Caden's Thirteen.
If you like the RFK Tapes, please consider leaving us
(29:59):
a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.
It really helps others find out about the show. You
can find us on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter at
the RFKA Tapes. It's the everybody. It's
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