In this powerful episode of The Truth with Lisa Boothe, Lisa sits down with Pastor Gary Hamrick to reflect on the shocking assassination of Charlie Kirk and what it reveals about the state of America. They discuss grief through a biblical lens, the growing hostility toward faith and truth, and the spiritual battle shaping today’s culture. Pastor Hamrick challenges Christians to stand firm in their convictions, embrace courage, and fight for biblical values in a society increasingly opposed to them. The Truth with Lisa Boothe is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Tuesday & Thursday.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Truth with Lisa Booth, where we get
to the heart of the issues that matter to you. Today,
we're diving into a heavy but important conversation about grief,
about face, about this spiritual battle that we're facing right
now in the country and also just the world. In
(00:21):
the wake of the tragic assassination of Charlie Kirk, a
devout Christian, a guy who lived his life for Christ,
for his.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Family, for his country.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
We're left asking why does God allow such evil to happen?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Why does God allow such pain?
Speaker 1 (00:40):
And on how do we process the celebration of his
loss in our society when we see all these people
in just such an evil way of celebrating and gleefully
celebrating the loss of human life, the assassination of a
great man. You know, the only heartening thing that we've
seen from all this is it it seems to have
(01:01):
sparked something in people around the world, you know, perhaps
the spiritual revival.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I don't know, but it seems like we're saying.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
More and more people, millions of people around the world
more boldly stand in their faith and their beliefs.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
So we're gonna have someone come on the show today.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Who is very bold in his beliefs, who's very bold
for the.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Truth and his faith.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
You might have heard of him, but it's Pastor Gary
Hamrick of Cornerstone Chapel in Leesburg, Virginia. It's a thriving
church just right outside of the Washington, DC area. They
have thousands attend Cornerstone Chapel. He's a leader of the truth.
He's not afraid to back down from a fight. He's
not afraid to get involved in politics. He's unafraid, much
(01:44):
like Charlie was. So we're going to lean on him
today to walk us through this grief, what it means,
the spiritual battle that we all know that we're facing
right now and where we might be headed as a country.
So stay tuned for Pastor Gary Hamrick of Cornerstone Chapel. Well, Pastor,
(02:06):
I invenged you previously, but my parents used to attend
your church when they lived in Virginia and they just
loved going to Cornerstone. They loved hearing what you had
to say, and they loved how bold and.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Truthful you are.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So we appreciate you making the time for the show today, sir.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Thank you, Lisa. It's good to be with you.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yeah, I think so many of us have just been
experiencing so much grief since Charlie Kirk's assassination. It's just
our hearts are hurting, we feel broken. I guess what
can you tell us about grief? And what can you
tell us right now in this time of just hurting
in vain.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
You know, I heard somebody once saying, I think this
is just so helpful that when God created Adam and
even the garden, he didn't really wire humanity with the
capacity to grief because we weren't supposed to experience death
the result of sin, the fall of man, and then
death and sued as a result. But originally, when God
(03:04):
created man, we were not really wired to experience the
emotion of grief because we weren't wired to experience death.
And so I think grief is one of the hardest
emotions to work through.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
I know a lot of.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
People who obviously turn to different vices and different substances
to try to cope with the grief. But you know,
for us who obviously believe in Christ, we lean more
into him, we press more into the Lord, and we
give him our sorrows. The Bible says that God is
close to the broken hearted and saves those who are
crushed in spirit. And so when I'm grieving, and when
(03:40):
you're grieving, when people grieve over the loss of a
loved one, in this case losing Charlie Kirk, we just
have to press into the Lord because grief is not
something we are supposed to really experience.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I think a lot of people look at something like
this and they say, here's this god fearing man, a
guy who dedicated his life to Christ, to family, his country. Yeah,
he's a good man, and yet he was assassinated, he
was murdered. You know, like, why does God allow evil
to happen?
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Yeah, that's the big question.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
You know. Evil entered the world because initially Satan rebelled
against the Lord. God has given even his created beings angels,
and he's given mankind free will because he wants us
to choose him. He wants a love relationship. He doesn't
want it to be a robotic kind of a legal relationship.
And so because we have choice, we can choose to
(04:34):
love him and follow him, we can choose to disobey
him and rebel against him. And so evil in the
world began because Satan rebelled against the Lord, and so
God is not the author of evil. Evil is the
result of the fall of Satan and the fall of man.
And now we live in a world where there is
(04:55):
this evil. But that's why God sent Christ into the
world to rescue us from an evil world. So sometimes
it's really hard to make sense of it because we think, Okay,
God is sovereign on the one hand, but we have
all this evil in the world on the other hand,
how can God allow this? Well, God provided a remedy
for us because of evil that entered the world as
(05:16):
a result of Satan and man's rebellion against him. It's hard,
but he is our refuge and he's our ever present
help in times of trouble.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
You know, it seems like, you know, just speaking of
that evilness, we're really seeing it in abundance. Yeah, day,
I mean, you know, pastor, I'm I'm sure you've seen
people celebrating. Yeah, a young man just thirty one years old,
being murdered, being assassinated.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
It's like, how did we get to this point?
Speaker 1 (05:44):
I mean, it just seems more evil than you know,
any other time I can know, I'm forty, but it
just I don't remember a time where people would just
so callously and gleefully celebrate the murder of someone.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
Well top of your age on sixty two and I
still haven't seen anything quite like this. But you know, personally,
I think it's been there. It's just been under the
radar until something like this will spontaneously release what is
actually there. The core of humanity is wicked. And you know, again,
I'm a pastor, so I see things, and I hope
(06:21):
all Christians see things through the lens of the Bible.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
And when I look at the Bible, and when.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
I see what the Bible says about the condition of humanity,
we are a fallen race of people, all of us.
And that's why Christ came into the world to rescue us.
And so this evil that is in the world, the
wickedness that is in the world, I think has always
been there. It's just that it just kind of flies
under the radar until something catastrophic like this happens with
(06:48):
the assassinage of Charlie Kirk, and then the people who
didn't like him now become very vocal in their vitriol
and their animosity and their hatred. And it's so disheartening,
but to be honest, It's not surprising because this is
the condition of a fallen world.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
You know. It seems to me that, you know, obviously
there was a political dynamic to this, in the sense of,
you know, Charlie was a political leader, you know, a
turning point, was a powerhouse. I mean, he helped elect
President Trump, particularly with younger people. But even more so
than that, there is a spiritual component to this, and
I believe Charlie was murdered for his faith because that
(07:27):
was the basis in the foundation of all of his beliefs.
I mean, the truth that he spread was because of
his faith in Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
You know, is that how you see it?
Speaker 1 (07:39):
I mean, is he a murder for Christianity or how
do you see this?
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (07:43):
I said on Sunday that the reason why Charlie Kirk
was considered quote controversial, is simply because his biblical views
shaped his political views that challenged the cultural views. And
so even though people saw him as a political figure,
really his politics were shaped because of his biblical views,
(08:05):
because of his faith in Christ and his belief in
the Bible, and so he was more so of late,
he became more of an apologist really for the Christian faith.
He became a great debater to defend the cause of Christ,
to defend scriptural principles, to defend the Bible, and his
(08:26):
faith became more obvious in latter years than when he
first started Turning Point USA. In fact, later he started
even this leg this branch of Turning Point faith because
his faith became so important to him. Whether he died
as a Christian martyr, I've had a lot of discussions
with some of my friends about this, and I think
(08:49):
that that is up for debate only because in the
traditional sense of a martyr, it's usually someone who is
doing something specifically in the cause of Christ. You know,
when the Taliban, there's a missionary, the story of Jim Elliott,
you know Stephen in the Bible, those are considered more
of the traditional martyrs. So whether Charlie Kirk died is
(09:11):
a Christian martyr, I guess that's up for discussion. But
his faith certainly was a testimony of his belief in
Jesus Christ, and martyr comes from the Greek word martyrs,
which just means witness, and he certainly was that he
was a witness for Christ and all that he said,
and did you know it.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Feels like, you know, obviously there is a political battle
in front of us, but the spiritual one seems as
you persede that.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Kind of talk about this, you know, spiritual.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Battle that we're facing right now, it really does feel
like it's just, you know, less than Republican versus Democrat.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
It's like just good versus evil.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Yeah, Well, in the Bible of Isaiah five, Isaiah speaks
about how woe to those who call evil good and
good evil who substitutes for darkness and darkness for light.
We are living in that time right now. We're living
in an upside down world where just ten fifteen years ago,
things that used to be called wrong are now called
(10:12):
right and even celebrated, and things that used to be
called right are now called wrong by many in the culture.
And this is a spiritual battle. What we're seeing happening
right now with the violence, the hatred, the animosity, all
of this is just an indication of a spiritual battle
that is going on really for the soul of America.
(10:33):
And it could be said around the world, but you know,
just looking at it close to home, this is a
spiritual battle. And you're right, it's not it used to
be I'm a old enough to remember when Republicans and
Democrats were more closely aligned. I mean, for goodness sakes,
Bill Clinton signed the Defensive Marriage Act, which got struck
down by the Supreme Court. But it just goes to
show you that here's a Democrat who was defending marriage,
(10:56):
the traditional marriage, like the Bible spells it out.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
And now you don't even have that. You don't even
have many.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
Democrats who would support domat today. It is they've gone
to a place where there's this division over the things
that used to be considered right and wrong are no
longer considered in the same light of right and wrong.
And that indicates to me this is really a spiritual battle.
Its deception of the highest level satan and demonic principalities
(11:26):
that we cannot see. And I don't want to blame
them for everything, but it's just pretty clear that when
you look at violence and you look at how people
are redefining things, redefining marriage, redefining biological sex, as if
you could do that, redefining all these different things, it's
just as an indication that we've lost our minds. And
the reason is because there's a spiritual battle behind it
(11:47):
that is causing a delusion and a deception.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
I've got to take a quick commercial break more with
Pastor Gary Hamrick on the other side. Well, you know,
I've always looked at the transgender issue as if a
part of society can get the rest to accept something
that's so demonstrably false and such a lie that then
they can convince you and get you to believe anything.
(12:11):
And you know, so for me, it's always just been
a battle of truth, you know, And you know, it's
sort of like a control exercise, right, Like, if we
can get these people to accept something that is so
such a lie, then like we're an owned people, right,
the truth no longer matters and we're living in this
gray area where you know there is no wrong versus.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
Right, Lisa, I had a guy who works for pharmaceutical
company send me an email. He and his wife and
four daughters attend our church and he sent me an
email an email once that just basically said thank you
for telling the truth so that I can know I'm
not going crazy. There are a lot of people who
just we're believing things. Are we being told things I
should say that are true when in fact they're completely false.
(12:57):
But if it's repeated enough. You know, if that lies
repeated enough, then it is believed by a majority of
people as if it is true. And then you have
this minority of people now who are saying, am I crazy?
I mean, this is this really what it appears to be?
And so that's just one story of many emails I
get from people saying thank you for helping us to
(13:19):
be centered, to know what is right and from what
is false, what is true, from what is false, because
otherwise we think we're going crazy.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Then I guess why are so few willing to take
a stand, Because I think that is one thing that
made Charlie Kirk such a giant, Yeah, was the fact
that he was unafraid. He was you know, at a
time when like the culture was telling young people to
go in one direction, like he stood so bravely for
his beliefs and for truth and for light. So it's like,
(13:49):
why then do people cower when you know, even just
this past election, we found out that there are more
Americans who share common sense principles and beliefs over seventy
seven million in than not, yet so few people speak up.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
So why I.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
Think we live in a such a me oriented culture.
You know, social media has driven that in large part.
You know, how many likes did I get, how many
thumbs up did I get? And so now people are
more concerned about their personal popularity, how well they are liked,
than they are about the truth, because they know that
if they were to take a stand on certain things,
(14:27):
people may not like them. And you know, I said
to our congregation on Sunday, we have to get over
this whole idea of being liked, because even Jesus said
in John fifteen, if they hate you, remember they hated
me first. Whenever you draw a line, even if you
wrap it in grace and wrap the truth in love,
(14:48):
some people will still be offended by the truth just
because truth confronts us. You know, every time I read
the Bible, it confronts me and there and my response
has to either be Okay, I'm going to submit to
this and hump myself, or I'm going to be offended
by it.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
So when a.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
Culture does not accept God as the supreme authority in
their lives, then they get offended by any truth as
God defines it. And a lot of people are reluctant
to be truthful and honest and courageous and bold because
they don't want to quote offend people. And the root
of that is they just don't want to be disliked.
And Charlie Kirk was a different person altogether in that
(15:26):
regard because he wanted to tell the truth and he
didn't really care if people disliked him, and he was
willing literally to die for it because there was a
shooter who disliked him so much that he took his life.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
No, I think his murder has been a gut check
for so many people around the world. You know, if
like this thirty one year old has so much purpose
in his life and already knows why he was put
on this earth, and you know his mission in life
and was so bold and so brave, it's like, what
are the rest of us doing? Yeah, why do you
(16:01):
think we're kind of all feeling that gut check right now?
Speaker 4 (16:04):
Because I think many of us not only are grieving
over the assassination of Charlie Kirk, but I think we
look at his life and it makes us feel ashamed.
And when I say that, I mean when we look
at how bold and courageous he was, most of us
couldn't do that. Most of us would not go into
college campuses and try to debate and engage people in conversation.
(16:27):
He just liked the exchange of ideas and he liked
the freedom of free speech. But I think most people
would be too intimidated to do such a thing. And
so then when we see man he gave his life
for what he believed, what am I doing? Am I
willing to give my life in defense of what I believe?
(16:49):
And so in that way, in a positive way, his
assassination has kind of shamed us into realizing the gut
check is do I have the courage to do what
Charlie Kirk did? Am I willing to love people and
love truth more than my own life? And that is challenging.
But I think that's in part why many of us
(17:10):
just feel this sense of like grief mixed with such
awe and respect of what Charlie did for standing.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Up for truth, you know.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
And then the irony is his killer obviously thought that
he was shutting this down, that by killing Charlie he
would silence his voice, and instead, like we're just the
the response to this, I'm just in awe of like
just millions of people gathering and even like the United
Kingdom and California and places that tend to be more.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Liberal, South Korea.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yeah, like the.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Amount of video right, like, just the amount of video
is being posted, and people like declaring their faith and
standing up for their beliefs, and you know, it's it's
it's remarkable what this has stoked throughout the world.
Speaker 4 (17:59):
Yeah, And and I hope it continues. You know, I
remember after nine to eleven when everybody was grieving and
churches were swelled with attendance, as ours was on Sunday.
I mean, we had hundreds of extra people here on Sunday.
It affects the psyche of America and when there's a
national tragedy like this, and so I just hope that
(18:20):
it continues. I hope that what's been ignited continues to
burn brightly, because this can be a new day. This
could be a great time for America. It can be
a great spiritual revival that sweeps across our country. So
I pray that his death is not in vain and
that some great things will come out of it.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
I think a lot of people are can be frustrated
sometimes and feel like, you know, churches try.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
To like tow the line or they're not trying.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
To you know, they don't want to offend or you know,
it's it's you've kind of done things differently. Why do
you think some other churches and other pastors sort of
choose to not engage in some of these battles, and
then why have you chosen the opposite.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
It's an ironic thing, Lisa.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
I know pastors who are afraid to speak out on
these issues because they think people.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Will leave their church.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
And then people leave their church and then take their
money with them, so they're afraid of losing numbers and
they're afraid of losing money. What I have found is
that it's the opposite. We're living in a time right
now where people are so hungry for the truth that
when I say things that may not be all that
popular to a culture that doesn't believe that for every
(19:31):
one person who leaves my church, three more come.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
And I'm not exaggerating.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
I mean we have seen growth in our church numerically
and financially, and my goal has not been numerica or
financial growth. It's just simply I've witnessed the fact that
when you stand for what is right and you tell
the truth, there's a hunger right now in America for
somebody to tell people the truth. And I encourage pastors
and churches like, don't be afraid, because yeah, some people
(19:58):
will leave your church, but others will come because they're searching,
they're hungry, they want to know more. But unfortunately a
lot of the woke mentality has infiltrated the church, and
churches are hanging out rainbow flags and other things, and
they're turning to social justice more than they are the Bible,
and so they're watering down everything. And that doesn't help anybody.
(20:20):
That does a horrible disservice to people. So I'm encouraged
that there's a real hunger for the truth. And it's
a joy to stand up and share God's word because
I know it's what is liberating. You know, Jesus said,
if you know the truth, the truth will set you.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Fore, I got to take a quick break.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
If this show is resonating with you, please share on
social media or send it to a friend or a
family member. You know. And you've also chosen to engage
in politics where you know some other churches might not.
Why have you decided to do that? Why is that
important to you?
Speaker 4 (20:54):
And in two thousand and eight, I had David Barton,
who's the president of wall Builders, look at my church
and he asked me. Then he said, do you preach
election sermons? And I said, David, what's an election sermon?
And he actually showed me. And I ended up buying
a two volume set of books called Political Sermons of
the American Founding Era. And it was from the late
(21:17):
sixteen hundreds into the mid seventeen hundreds where during the
colonial period, pastors would get up in their pulpit and
they would call out the candidates. They would talk about
the Bible in terms of how it should shape our
political views and how we should vote in that regard.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
So and I just started.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
Looking into American history and realizing, for example, twenty nine
out of fifty six of the signus of the Declaration
of Independence had Bible school or seminary training. Their faith
influenced the founding of America. I mean, for goodness, look
at the opening of the Declaration of Independence that we
are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights. I
(21:55):
mean they put God right at the top of the document.
So when I started realizing how much much of faith
has shaped America as a pastor. I wanted to be
faithful to do the same and to continue that tradition.
And it's not only American tradition. You look into the
Bible and the profits of old they called out kings,
the prophet spoke truth to power, and so I see
(22:19):
that as part of my responsibility. I know politics is
not all that popular because some people come to church
and they think, oh, separation of church and state, which
is nowhere in the Bill Rights, Constitution, or Declaration of Independence.
It was in a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to Danberry,
Baptist in Connecticut, but people have taken that to mean
politics has no place in the church. My opinion is
(22:41):
everything about our faith should shape our influence in the
world culturally, socially, even politically, and so as a pastor,
I feel it's a responsibility to help the people to
be engaged.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
How did you get into the ministry?
Speaker 4 (22:57):
You know, that's a good story. I actually was going
the out that you've gone. I was at American University
as a journalism major, and I just couldn't shake at least.
I came into faith to believe in Jesus Christ as
my Lord and Savior, and when I was fifteen, and
so when I started, you know, finishing out high school
and heading into college, I had it in my mind
(23:19):
to pursue communications and journalism, but I just couldn't get
away from this sense that God wanted me to serve
him in ministry. And you know, people have ministry wherever
they're planted. I don't ever wanted to discount the influence
that people can have in whatever area that they are
employed or wherever God takes them. But for me, it
(23:40):
was more of a commitment that I believed God wanted
me to have in serving him full time. So in
the middle of college, I switched schools and went to
a Bible college and then finished and a door opened
for me to plant Cornerstone.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
And that was now.
Speaker 4 (23:57):
Thirty four years ago, and we planned it with eight
team charter members and now thousands of people later.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
I just give God all the glory.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
And before we go, what message do you want to
leave us with? You know?
Speaker 4 (24:09):
I remember there was a podcast that Charlie Kirk did
that they've been showing on social media these days, where
he was asked, what do you remember? What do you
want to be remembered for when all this goes away?
And Charlie was kind of shocked by the question. He said,
you mean when I die, And the interviewer just asked
the question again, just when it all goes away, what
do you want to be remembered for? And he said,
(24:31):
I want to be remembered for the courage of my faith.
And that spoke to me and I think what's important
for all of us to remember is that we live
in a world where truth matters, and so stand for truth,
be courageous in your faith, make a difference in the
world for the glory of God. And if you really
(24:51):
love people more than you love yourself, you will want
to share the truth with them more than protecting your
own personal popularity. I think the message today is be
courageous and be bold because the world needs it.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Pastor Gary Hammerick, we appreciate you making the time, sir.
I think we needed this, so thank you so much
for making the time.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Thank you, Lisa, it's been a privilege to be with
you those.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Pastor Gary Hamrick Cornerstone Chapel, we appreciate him for making
the time to come on the show just imparting some
wisdom on.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Us as well.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Appreciate you guys at home for listening every Tuesday and Thursday,
but you can listen throughout the week.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
I also want to thank.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
My producer, John Cassio for putting the show together.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Until next time,
Welcome to the Truth with Lisa Booth, where we get
to the heart of the issues that matter to you. Today,
we're diving into a heavy but important conversation about grief,
about face, about this spiritual battle that we're facing right
now in the country and also just the world. In
(00:21):
the wake of the tragic assassination of Charlie Kirk, a
devout Christian, a guy who lived his life for Christ,
for his.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Family, for his country.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
We're left asking why does God allow such evil to happen?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Why does God allow such pain?
Speaker 1 (00:40):
And on how do we process the celebration of his
loss in our society when we see all these people
in just such an evil way of celebrating and gleefully
celebrating the loss of human life, the assassination of a
great man. You know, the only heartening thing that we've
seen from all this is it it seems to have
(01:01):
sparked something in people around the world, you know, perhaps
the spiritual revival.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I don't know, but it seems like we're saying.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
More and more people, millions of people around the world
more boldly stand in their faith and their beliefs.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
So we're gonna have someone come on the show today.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Who is very bold in his beliefs, who's very bold
for the.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Truth and his faith.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
You might have heard of him, but it's Pastor Gary
Hamrick of Cornerstone Chapel in Leesburg, Virginia. It's a thriving
church just right outside of the Washington, DC area. They
have thousands attend Cornerstone Chapel. He's a leader of the truth.
He's not afraid to back down from a fight. He's
not afraid to get involved in politics. He's unafraid, much
(01:44):
like Charlie was. So we're going to lean on him
today to walk us through this grief, what it means,
the spiritual battle that we all know that we're facing
right now and where we might be headed as a country.
So stay tuned for Pastor Gary Hamrick of Cornerstone Chapel. Well, Pastor,
(02:06):
I invenged you previously, but my parents used to attend
your church when they lived in Virginia and they just
loved going to Cornerstone. They loved hearing what you had
to say, and they loved how bold and.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Truthful you are.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So we appreciate you making the time for the show today, sir.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Thank you, Lisa. It's good to be with you.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yeah, I think so many of us have just been
experiencing so much grief since Charlie Kirk's assassination. It's just
our hearts are hurting, we feel broken. I guess what
can you tell us about grief? And what can you
tell us right now in this time of just hurting
in vain.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
You know, I heard somebody once saying, I think this
is just so helpful that when God created Adam and
even the garden, he didn't really wire humanity with the
capacity to grief because we weren't supposed to experience death
the result of sin, the fall of man, and then
death and sued as a result. But originally, when God
(03:04):
created man, we were not really wired to experience the
emotion of grief because we weren't wired to experience death.
And so I think grief is one of the hardest
emotions to work through.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
I know a lot of.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
People who obviously turn to different vices and different substances
to try to cope with the grief. But you know,
for us who obviously believe in Christ, we lean more
into him, we press more into the Lord, and we
give him our sorrows. The Bible says that God is
close to the broken hearted and saves those who are
crushed in spirit. And so when I'm grieving, and when
(03:40):
you're grieving, when people grieve over the loss of a
loved one, in this case losing Charlie Kirk, we just
have to press into the Lord because grief is not
something we are supposed to really experience.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I think a lot of people look at something like
this and they say, here's this god fearing man, a
guy who dedicated his life to Christ, to family, his country. Yeah,
he's a good man, and yet he was assassinated, he
was murdered. You know, like, why does God allow evil
to happen?
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Yeah, that's the big question.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
You know. Evil entered the world because initially Satan rebelled
against the Lord. God has given even his created beings angels,
and he's given mankind free will because he wants us
to choose him. He wants a love relationship. He doesn't
want it to be a robotic kind of a legal relationship.
And so because we have choice, we can choose to
(04:34):
love him and follow him, we can choose to disobey
him and rebel against him. And so evil in the
world began because Satan rebelled against the Lord, and so
God is not the author of evil. Evil is the
result of the fall of Satan and the fall of man.
And now we live in a world where there is
(04:55):
this evil. But that's why God sent Christ into the
world to rescue us from an evil world. So sometimes
it's really hard to make sense of it because we think, Okay,
God is sovereign on the one hand, but we have
all this evil in the world on the other hand,
how can God allow this? Well, God provided a remedy
for us because of evil that entered the world as
(05:16):
a result of Satan and man's rebellion against him. It's hard,
but he is our refuge and he's our ever present
help in times of trouble.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
You know, it seems like, you know, just speaking of
that evilness, we're really seeing it in abundance. Yeah, day,
I mean, you know, pastor, I'm I'm sure you've seen
people celebrating. Yeah, a young man just thirty one years old,
being murdered, being assassinated.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
It's like, how did we get to this point?
Speaker 1 (05:44):
I mean, it just seems more evil than you know,
any other time I can know, I'm forty, but it
just I don't remember a time where people would just
so callously and gleefully celebrate the murder of someone.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
Well top of your age on sixty two and I
still haven't seen anything quite like this. But you know, personally,
I think it's been there. It's just been under the
radar until something like this will spontaneously release what is
actually there. The core of humanity is wicked. And you know, again,
I'm a pastor, so I see things, and I hope
(06:21):
all Christians see things through the lens of the Bible.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
And when I look at the Bible, and when.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
I see what the Bible says about the condition of humanity,
we are a fallen race of people, all of us.
And that's why Christ came into the world to rescue us.
And so this evil that is in the world, the
wickedness that is in the world, I think has always
been there. It's just that it just kind of flies
under the radar until something catastrophic like this happens with
(06:48):
the assassinage of Charlie Kirk, and then the people who
didn't like him now become very vocal in their vitriol
and their animosity and their hatred. And it's so disheartening,
but to be honest, It's not surprising because this is
the condition of a fallen world.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
You know. It seems to me that, you know, obviously
there was a political dynamic to this, in the sense of,
you know, Charlie was a political leader, you know, a
turning point, was a powerhouse. I mean, he helped elect
President Trump, particularly with younger people. But even more so
than that, there is a spiritual component to this, and
I believe Charlie was murdered for his faith because that
(07:27):
was the basis in the foundation of all of his beliefs.
I mean, the truth that he spread was because of
his faith in Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
You know, is that how you see it?
Speaker 1 (07:39):
I mean, is he a murder for Christianity or how
do you see this?
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (07:43):
I said on Sunday that the reason why Charlie Kirk
was considered quote controversial, is simply because his biblical views
shaped his political views that challenged the cultural views. And
so even though people saw him as a political figure,
really his politics were shaped because of his biblical views,
(08:05):
because of his faith in Christ and his belief in
the Bible, and so he was more so of late,
he became more of an apologist really for the Christian faith.
He became a great debater to defend the cause of Christ,
to defend scriptural principles, to defend the Bible, and his
(08:26):
faith became more obvious in latter years than when he
first started Turning Point USA. In fact, later he started
even this leg this branch of Turning Point faith because
his faith became so important to him. Whether he died
as a Christian martyr, I've had a lot of discussions
with some of my friends about this, and I think
(08:49):
that that is up for debate only because in the
traditional sense of a martyr, it's usually someone who is
doing something specifically in the cause of Christ. You know,
when the Taliban, there's a missionary, the story of Jim Elliott,
you know Stephen in the Bible, those are considered more
of the traditional martyrs. So whether Charlie Kirk died is
(09:11):
a Christian martyr, I guess that's up for discussion. But
his faith certainly was a testimony of his belief in
Jesus Christ, and martyr comes from the Greek word martyrs,
which just means witness, and he certainly was that he
was a witness for Christ and all that he said,
and did you know it.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Feels like, you know, obviously there is a political battle
in front of us, but the spiritual one seems as
you persede that.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Kind of talk about this, you know, spiritual.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Battle that we're facing right now, it really does feel
like it's just, you know, less than Republican versus Democrat.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
It's like just good versus evil.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Yeah, Well, in the Bible of Isaiah five, Isaiah speaks
about how woe to those who call evil good and
good evil who substitutes for darkness and darkness for light.
We are living in that time right now. We're living
in an upside down world where just ten fifteen years ago,
things that used to be called wrong are now called
(10:12):
right and even celebrated, and things that used to be
called right are now called wrong by many in the culture.
And this is a spiritual battle. What we're seeing happening
right now with the violence, the hatred, the animosity, all
of this is just an indication of a spiritual battle
that is going on really for the soul of America.
(10:33):
And it could be said around the world, but you know,
just looking at it close to home, this is a
spiritual battle. And you're right, it's not it used to
be I'm a old enough to remember when Republicans and
Democrats were more closely aligned. I mean, for goodness sakes,
Bill Clinton signed the Defensive Marriage Act, which got struck
down by the Supreme Court. But it just goes to
show you that here's a Democrat who was defending marriage,
(10:56):
the traditional marriage, like the Bible spells it out.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
And now you don't even have that. You don't even
have many.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
Democrats who would support domat today. It is they've gone
to a place where there's this division over the things
that used to be considered right and wrong are no
longer considered in the same light of right and wrong.
And that indicates to me this is really a spiritual battle.
Its deception of the highest level satan and demonic principalities
(11:26):
that we cannot see. And I don't want to blame
them for everything, but it's just pretty clear that when
you look at violence and you look at how people
are redefining things, redefining marriage, redefining biological sex, as if
you could do that, redefining all these different things, it's
just as an indication that we've lost our minds. And
the reason is because there's a spiritual battle behind it
(11:47):
that is causing a delusion and a deception.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
I've got to take a quick commercial break more with
Pastor Gary Hamrick on the other side. Well, you know,
I've always looked at the transgender issue as if a
part of society can get the rest to accept something
that's so demonstrably false and such a lie that then
they can convince you and get you to believe anything.
(12:11):
And you know, so for me, it's always just been
a battle of truth, you know, And you know, it's
sort of like a control exercise, right, Like, if we
can get these people to accept something that is so
such a lie, then like we're an owned people, right,
the truth no longer matters and we're living in this
gray area where you know there is no wrong versus.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
Right, Lisa, I had a guy who works for pharmaceutical
company send me an email. He and his wife and
four daughters attend our church and he sent me an
email an email once that just basically said thank you
for telling the truth so that I can know I'm
not going crazy. There are a lot of people who
just we're believing things. Are we being told things I
should say that are true when in fact they're completely false.
(12:57):
But if it's repeated enough. You know, if that lies
repeated enough, then it is believed by a majority of
people as if it is true. And then you have
this minority of people now who are saying, am I crazy?
I mean, this is this really what it appears to be?
And so that's just one story of many emails I
get from people saying thank you for helping us to
(13:19):
be centered, to know what is right and from what
is false, what is true, from what is false, because
otherwise we think we're going crazy.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Then I guess why are so few willing to take
a stand, Because I think that is one thing that
made Charlie Kirk such a giant, Yeah, was the fact
that he was unafraid. He was you know, at a
time when like the culture was telling young people to
go in one direction, like he stood so bravely for
his beliefs and for truth and for light. So it's like,
(13:49):
why then do people cower when you know, even just
this past election, we found out that there are more
Americans who share common sense principles and beliefs over seventy
seven million in than not, yet so few people speak up.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
So why I.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
Think we live in a such a me oriented culture.
You know, social media has driven that in large part.
You know, how many likes did I get, how many
thumbs up did I get? And so now people are
more concerned about their personal popularity, how well they are liked,
than they are about the truth, because they know that
if they were to take a stand on certain things,
(14:27):
people may not like them. And you know, I said
to our congregation on Sunday, we have to get over
this whole idea of being liked, because even Jesus said
in John fifteen, if they hate you, remember they hated
me first. Whenever you draw a line, even if you
wrap it in grace and wrap the truth in love,
(14:48):
some people will still be offended by the truth just
because truth confronts us. You know, every time I read
the Bible, it confronts me and there and my response
has to either be Okay, I'm going to submit to
this and hump myself, or I'm going to be offended
by it.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
So when a.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
Culture does not accept God as the supreme authority in
their lives, then they get offended by any truth as
God defines it. And a lot of people are reluctant
to be truthful and honest and courageous and bold because
they don't want to quote offend people. And the root
of that is they just don't want to be disliked.
And Charlie Kirk was a different person altogether in that
(15:26):
regard because he wanted to tell the truth and he
didn't really care if people disliked him, and he was
willing literally to die for it because there was a
shooter who disliked him so much that he took his life.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
No, I think his murder has been a gut check
for so many people around the world. You know, if
like this thirty one year old has so much purpose
in his life and already knows why he was put
on this earth, and you know his mission in life
and was so bold and so brave, it's like, what
are the rest of us doing? Yeah, why do you
(16:01):
think we're kind of all feeling that gut check right now?
Speaker 4 (16:04):
Because I think many of us not only are grieving
over the assassination of Charlie Kirk, but I think we
look at his life and it makes us feel ashamed.
And when I say that, I mean when we look
at how bold and courageous he was, most of us
couldn't do that. Most of us would not go into
college campuses and try to debate and engage people in conversation.
(16:27):
He just liked the exchange of ideas and he liked
the freedom of free speech. But I think most people
would be too intimidated to do such a thing. And
so then when we see man he gave his life
for what he believed, what am I doing? Am I
willing to give my life in defense of what I believe?
(16:49):
And so in that way, in a positive way, his
assassination has kind of shamed us into realizing the gut
check is do I have the courage to do what
Charlie Kirk did? Am I willing to love people and
love truth more than my own life? And that is challenging.
But I think that's in part why many of us
(17:10):
just feel this sense of like grief mixed with such
awe and respect of what Charlie did for standing.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Up for truth, you know.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
And then the irony is his killer obviously thought that
he was shutting this down, that by killing Charlie he
would silence his voice, and instead, like we're just the
the response to this, I'm just in awe of like
just millions of people gathering and even like the United
Kingdom and California and places that tend to be more.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Liberal, South Korea.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yeah, like the.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Amount of video right, like, just the amount of video
is being posted, and people like declaring their faith and
standing up for their beliefs, and you know, it's it's
it's remarkable what this has stoked throughout the world.
Speaker 4 (17:59):
Yeah, And and I hope it continues. You know, I
remember after nine to eleven when everybody was grieving and
churches were swelled with attendance, as ours was on Sunday.
I mean, we had hundreds of extra people here on Sunday.
It affects the psyche of America and when there's a
national tragedy like this, and so I just hope that
(18:20):
it continues. I hope that what's been ignited continues to
burn brightly, because this can be a new day. This
could be a great time for America. It can be
a great spiritual revival that sweeps across our country. So
I pray that his death is not in vain and
that some great things will come out of it.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
I think a lot of people are can be frustrated
sometimes and feel like, you know, churches try.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
To like tow the line or they're not trying.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
To you know, they don't want to offend or you know,
it's it's you've kind of done things differently. Why do
you think some other churches and other pastors sort of
choose to not engage in some of these battles, and
then why have you chosen the opposite.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
It's an ironic thing, Lisa.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
I know pastors who are afraid to speak out on
these issues because they think people.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Will leave their church.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
And then people leave their church and then take their
money with them, so they're afraid of losing numbers and
they're afraid of losing money. What I have found is
that it's the opposite. We're living in a time right
now where people are so hungry for the truth that
when I say things that may not be all that
popular to a culture that doesn't believe that for every
(19:31):
one person who leaves my church, three more come.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
And I'm not exaggerating.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
I mean we have seen growth in our church numerically
and financially, and my goal has not been numerica or
financial growth. It's just simply I've witnessed the fact that
when you stand for what is right and you tell
the truth, there's a hunger right now in America for
somebody to tell people the truth. And I encourage pastors
and churches like, don't be afraid, because yeah, some people
(19:58):
will leave your church, but others will come because they're searching,
they're hungry, they want to know more. But unfortunately a
lot of the woke mentality has infiltrated the church, and
churches are hanging out rainbow flags and other things, and
they're turning to social justice more than they are the Bible,
and so they're watering down everything. And that doesn't help anybody.
(20:20):
That does a horrible disservice to people. So I'm encouraged
that there's a real hunger for the truth. And it's
a joy to stand up and share God's word because
I know it's what is liberating. You know, Jesus said,
if you know the truth, the truth will set you.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Fore, I got to take a quick break.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
If this show is resonating with you, please share on
social media or send it to a friend or a
family member. You know. And you've also chosen to engage
in politics where you know some other churches might not.
Why have you decided to do that? Why is that
important to you?
Speaker 4 (20:54):
And in two thousand and eight, I had David Barton,
who's the president of wall Builders, look at my church
and he asked me. Then he said, do you preach
election sermons? And I said, David, what's an election sermon?
And he actually showed me. And I ended up buying
a two volume set of books called Political Sermons of
the American Founding Era. And it was from the late
(21:17):
sixteen hundreds into the mid seventeen hundreds where during the
colonial period, pastors would get up in their pulpit and
they would call out the candidates. They would talk about
the Bible in terms of how it should shape our
political views and how we should vote in that regard.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
So and I just started.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
Looking into American history and realizing, for example, twenty nine
out of fifty six of the signus of the Declaration
of Independence had Bible school or seminary training. Their faith
influenced the founding of America. I mean, for goodness, look
at the opening of the Declaration of Independence that we
are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights. I
(21:55):
mean they put God right at the top of the document.
So when I started realizing how much much of faith
has shaped America as a pastor. I wanted to be
faithful to do the same and to continue that tradition.
And it's not only American tradition. You look into the
Bible and the profits of old they called out kings,
the prophet spoke truth to power, and so I see
(22:19):
that as part of my responsibility. I know politics is
not all that popular because some people come to church
and they think, oh, separation of church and state, which
is nowhere in the Bill Rights, Constitution, or Declaration of Independence.
It was in a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to Danberry,
Baptist in Connecticut, but people have taken that to mean
politics has no place in the church. My opinion is
(22:41):
everything about our faith should shape our influence in the
world culturally, socially, even politically, and so as a pastor,
I feel it's a responsibility to help the people to
be engaged.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
How did you get into the ministry?
Speaker 4 (22:57):
You know, that's a good story. I actually was going
the out that you've gone. I was at American University
as a journalism major, and I just couldn't shake at least.
I came into faith to believe in Jesus Christ as
my Lord and Savior, and when I was fifteen, and
so when I started, you know, finishing out high school
and heading into college, I had it in my mind
(23:19):
to pursue communications and journalism, but I just couldn't get
away from this sense that God wanted me to serve
him in ministry. And you know, people have ministry wherever
they're planted. I don't ever wanted to discount the influence
that people can have in whatever area that they are
employed or wherever God takes them. But for me, it
(23:40):
was more of a commitment that I believed God wanted
me to have in serving him full time. So in
the middle of college, I switched schools and went to
a Bible college and then finished and a door opened
for me to plant Cornerstone.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
And that was now.
Speaker 4 (23:57):
Thirty four years ago, and we planned it with eight
team charter members and now thousands of people later.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
I just give God all the glory.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
And before we go, what message do you want to
leave us with? You know?
Speaker 4 (24:09):
I remember there was a podcast that Charlie Kirk did
that they've been showing on social media these days, where
he was asked, what do you remember? What do you
want to be remembered for when all this goes away?
And Charlie was kind of shocked by the question. He said,
you mean when I die, And the interviewer just asked
the question again, just when it all goes away, what
do you want to be remembered for? And he said,
(24:31):
I want to be remembered for the courage of my faith.
And that spoke to me and I think what's important
for all of us to remember is that we live
in a world where truth matters, and so stand for truth,
be courageous in your faith, make a difference in the
world for the glory of God. And if you really
(24:51):
love people more than you love yourself, you will want
to share the truth with them more than protecting your
own personal popularity. I think the message today is be
courageous and be bold because the world needs it.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Pastor Gary Hammerick, we appreciate you making the time, sir.
I think we needed this, so thank you so much
for making the time.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Thank you, Lisa, it's been a privilege to be with
you those.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Pastor Gary Hamrick Cornerstone Chapel, we appreciate him for making
the time to come on the show just imparting some
wisdom on.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Us as well.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Appreciate you guys at home for listening every Tuesday and Thursday,
but you can listen throughout the week.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
I also want to thank.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
My producer, John Cassio for putting the show together.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Until next time,
Host
Lisa Boothe
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