Hoops Tonight - 2025 NBA Draft Preview: Cooper Flagg all-time rank, the Ace Bailey debate, 3rd pick inflection point - The Volume

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All right, welcome to tonight here at the volume heavy Tuesday. Everybody.

(01:49):
Hope all of you guys are having a great start
to your week. Well, no rest for the weary this year,
as we just finished the NBA Finals on Sunday night.
Now we have the NBA Draft on Wednesday, a far
less time to prep than we usually do, but that's
what we have our friend and expert Sam is seeing for.
You know, Sam, every year spent three years in a row.

(02:12):
Now that the finals have ended and I've opened up
your draft guide, and I'm always just completely blown away
by the quality of your work. I think it's such
an incredible resource for basketball fans around the world, and
I'm just very thankful for the work that you do. Sam.
It is good to see you, buddy. But before we
get to the draft, we did just have an NBA

(02:32):
Finals series and a team always said the trophy, a
team that you've been a big fan of, a big
believer in for a long time, a player in Jadubb
that you and I have both been big fans of
for a long time. A lot of things coming to
fruition for a young Thunder team that kind of felt
to me like they might be a year or too early,
and some of that vulnerability did show at various points
in the postseason. But here they are. They have the

(02:53):
trophy with the still the super bright future. What were
your big NBA Finals takeaways?

Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yeah, so kind of faceted. First and foremost, thank you
for that incredibly kind intro, but you know, let's talk
through the Thunder. I guess first and my takeaways were,
this was the best team throughout the entirety of the year,
and they're an extremely worthy champion. I know that they
showed some flaws along the way, particularly with their offensive

(03:19):
execution throughout the course of the playoffs. But I mean, look,
I thought that they won Game seven on the back
of their defense. Obviously, the disaster and you know, incredibly sad,
you know thing that happened with Tyre's haliburt and tearing
his achilles in the first quarter, not with I meanwithstanding,
I guess not even notwithstanding, but the way that Oklahoma

(03:41):
City came back in the second half and just completely
turned up all of the pressure, ratcheted up the intensity,
forced all of the turnovers. I mean, the biggest difference
to me in Game seven, as much as anything, was
that without Tyre's Halliburton, the Pacers didn't have a way
to stop the Avalanche from rolling downhill like the snowballs,

(04:02):
from rolling downhill and becoming avalanches. Is maybe the way
to put it with Oklahoma City. That's the way that
Oklahoma City has scored all season. Right, they go on
these oh shit, it's an eleven zero run in ninety seconds.
What just happened, right runs where you know, they forced
their defense turns into offense, and they force turnovers and
they get out in transition, they drill a three, then

(04:24):
they go they get a stop, they get out in transition,
they get an easy bucket. They get another turnover, they
go out, you know, and they drill another three. Right like,
it just absolutely snowballs upon itself and becomes this incredibly
difficult thing to stop. It's like you're you're trying to
walk the ball uphill on a court. It feels like
to me in Oklahoma City is just running downhill. They're

(04:45):
skiing downhill and just making things so so difficult. I'm
done with the snow metaphors, I promise, but that to me,
without Haliburton there, they just didn't have a way to
stop that. Because I thought what Haliburton did incredibly well
even when he wasn't completely healthy. Was he such a
good decision maker and completely understands what the tempo of
the game requires at certain moments to where he's able

(05:09):
to calm the team down. And even in moments where
things get a little bit hectic and you do end
up with a turnover from Oklahoma City, Haliburton understood, Okay,
that's a turnover. That was an easy bucket. We got
to calm it down. I love TJ. McConnell. We both
have real connection to TJ. McConnell. You with the Arizona connection, me,

(05:32):
he's from Pittsburgh, like shout out Shartiers Valley High School
where he went. Shout out his father, who's like an
institution in Pittsburgh. But like, I think that the thing
that TJ really, the only thing that TJ does not
do well in this series, in my opinion, is that
he plays at that frenetic pace that I think feeds
into what Oklahoma City wants a lot of the time,

(05:55):
you know what I mean, And you know, big picture,
I think that's ultimately why the thunder were able to
win this in Game seven, But you know, even bigger,
more grandiose picture, I'm just fascinated to see what you
kind of think about Oklahoma City winning and what that
means for the NBA now as a whole.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah, you know, I thought that obviously the Tyres Halliburton
injury removed any sort of legitimate chance to win that game.
I do think that even though everything you're saying about
Tyrese is true, I want to be clear about that,
there were also moments in the series where he was
around and the floor the bottom fell out for their
offense because of turnovers and mistakes, and like I mean,

(06:39):
there was a stretch at the end of Game five,
where they turned it over four consecutive times in basically
crunch time after they got it to too. And so
I think, even though I agree with you that it
was a huge bummer and I would have much rather
seen ty Rese be healthy for that Game seven, the
outcome did feel kind of inevitable to me. Like I
didn't view Game seven as a point flip so much

(07:00):
as more of like an eighty twenty. I thought, Okayse
was gonna get it done. And the main reason why
was everything you're talking about in terms of that downhill defense.
To me was the the insurmountable kind of thing that
Oklahoma City brought to the table, and as you went
back to each round, it just kind of felt like
that was where it fell down. I mean, obviously joh

(07:21):
gets hurt in the Memphis series, but it's like they
have that big lead, but then suddenly Memphis can't score
for an entire half, and they come back, and they
went in the Denver series, Game four down the stretch,
Game five, down the stretch, the entirety of Game seven,
Minnesota down the stretch of Game four, the entirety of
Game five. Whenever Oklahoma City really had their back against
the wall. They hit a level on defense which was

(07:42):
pretty damn frightening actually, And I mean I didn't think
it was a coincidence at all that Kison and Casen
and Dort and Caruso were all fantastic in Game seven.
That's just their environment. And then Chet, to me, was
the guy that just tied it all together in terms
of his ability to remove that like entry point. Like
I was talking about this on the show, like the
Celtics had Drew Holliday and Jaylen Brown. Those are two

(08:03):
frightening perimeter defenders. You go back to Denver with Contavious
Caldwell Pope and Bruce Brown. You go back to Golden
State with Gary Payton and Andrew Wiggins and a Draymond Green,
and like every team that wins the title has a
lot of really good perimeter defenders, Jet is the guy
that makes them different. He's the guy that brings that like,
oh now we have like a young Anthony Davis esque

(08:26):
rim protector, perimeter switcher type of player that just ties
it all together. And that's a scary thing to me.
Is I really thought they won the title with their
defense this year. Their offense on the road. It showed
up when it needed to for the one time each
series that they needed to get it done, but it
was inconsistent. It was sloppy. I thought that that was

(08:46):
the scary thing for the rest of the league. Is
like Shay seemed to figure out some things in this
postseason about like how he needs to approach certain moments.
J Dubb after Game six of the Denver series, realized,
oh shit, no one can keep me from the rim,
and all of a sudden he was getting to the
restricted area twice as often as he did in the
first chunk of the postseason. You know, everybody kind of

(09:07):
just figured out lessons along this way, and a lot
of times those lessons come in losses. A lot of
times in NBA history, it's like they get eliminated and
they have to learn those lessons in order to get
over the top of This team was just so damn
good defensively, Like it wasn't just a championship level defense,
it was an all time great defense. And I think
that that bear.

Speaker 2 (09:26):
Jason, like what I would bring up to you in
that regard is just like I think this team did
learn from losing last year. They learned from losing last
year to Dallas in that series, right, and it was
a very similar outcome, right, Like Dallas used that crazy
heavy peel switch defense to be able to cause all
sorts of problems for Oklahoma City as they were going
through these moments where it got really stagnant, right, And

(09:49):
at the end of the day, I wouldn't say that,
I would say Oklahoma City was a bit less stagnant.
I guess this year, not crazy less, but in the
moments where they needed to be less stagnant. I think
that the Caruso addition really helps with that, uh, just
because he is somebody that moves it so quickly, he
processes the game so quickly, he cuts back door and
is such a sharp mover without the ball. I really

(10:13):
do think that that addition helped them, just in terms of, like,
forget the defense for a second, and we can't do that.
But the offense, in my opinion, helps them a lot
because he isn't a guy that needs the ball in
his hand, but he's a fairly reliable shooter. Then he
goes through streaks for sure, but by and large there
are teams that won't guard him. But if you don't

(10:33):
guard him, I do feel like he's going to get
thirty five percent of his threes if you don't guard
him right. And then on top of it, he cuts
back door. He consistently moves the ball quickly, even just
that little stuff zonebuster exactly right. I think chet you know,
continues to grow. I know that he shot the ball horrendously. Like,
can you imagine what this playoffs looks like next year

(10:55):
or the year after or something when Jadub and chet
like really starts shooting the ball. I mean, that's the
next level for these guys, right, they're great players. Yeah,
It's funny, like I know that coming into the year,
that was one of the things that he really tried
to work on in the off season, and it just

(11:16):
I think he reverted back after the injury, after he
heard his hip, and I think just went back to
what he felt comfortable with. I'm interested to see if
he kind of goes back to trying to quicken it
again this offseason, because I know that was a goal
for him this offseason. I mean, yeah, I think that
this is a perfectly built team. They obviously have a
million draft picks here. Moving forward. Sam Presty's done incredibly well.

(11:39):
I think The next question I would ask you here
is just you know, I talked about this a little
bit on my show right after the finals on Monday night,
but very Sunday night. I'm sorry, what do you think
your takeaways are in terms of team building here in
regard to how Oklahoma City has been built, Indiana has
been built, some of these other successful teams this year

(12:00):
have been built.

Speaker 1 (12:03):
So you know, I thought your intro in your draft guide,
which we're gonna get to in more detail in a minute,
continues to be exactly what my biggest like kind of
worldview around basketball has been really since the rise of
Boston last year, which is like, the advantage creators in
the NBA take so many different shapes and sizes. You know,
whether it's a forward like Tatum who can beat mismatches

(12:25):
and pass out of it, or if it's a Tyrese
Haliburton pays and space machine, or it's a Nicola Jokic
power and playmaking machine or Luca power and play making machine.
Advantage creation takes on all these different forms, but once
the advantage is created, basketball is pretty much the same
down the line. For the majority of teams, It's about
the ability to knock down open catch and shoot jump shots,

(12:47):
to drive close outs, to make reads out of those closeouts,
to finish at the rim, and to be functional defensively
in various different defensive coverages. And I think that, you know,
as we look around with team building around the league,
that's that dribble, shoot, pass and defend guy is what
everybody in the league should be looking for. Like less specialists,
more of these guys who can do everything, because each
series kind of dictates. Cruso's a classic example. It's like

(13:08):
him in his ability to just kind of catch in
the middle of the floor and make little floaters from
ten feet was huge against Denver when they faced all
of that zone. He can guard fronting the post against
big forwards like he did against Randall and against Jokic,
but then he can also defend out on the perimeter
like he did against Indiana's guards in this series. You know,
there's just the versatility element is so key with Oklahoma City,
And this is what I think is fascinating Sam, and

(13:29):
I'm curious to hear if this is what you think
they'll do. I think for a team in their build
with three max contracts, which again they're not there now,
but they will be in the big picture. They almost
have to live through the draft, and so when I
look at it, I almost look at it as like,
I think Sam Presty is going to avoid the let's

(13:51):
trade for Cam Johnson, Let's trade for this role player
who makes twenty million, and I think he's gonna lean more.
I could see him doing something like that on an
ex firing where he maintains flexibility potentially, But like, I
think a good portion of this is going to be Chet,
Jadub and Chay on big contracts and then a bunch
of dudes on rookie deals, and I think they're going
to be looking for the next Case and Wallace guys

(14:13):
that are dudes who can come in and play winning
basketball right away in the NBA because they played in
a winning context in college for a good coach that
got them prepared to do that. Dribbleshoot, pass and defense
to defend work. Because Shay, j Dub and Chet can
kind of create these achievable roles through their advantage creation,
through Chet's defensive flexibility. There's just so many different types

(14:35):
of players that you can put around them, and so
that's my I'll pitch it back to you, now, do
you think Sam Presty ends up using his draft picks
on role players coming back or do you think he
just cycles through draft picks on rookie contracts to support
these I.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
Would guess that he will continue to cycle through draft picks.
The thing that I will say is a they're going
to sign these guys to these you know, twenty five
to thirty percent maxes, depending on like Jadab has to
get the thirty percent. You know, language in his contract
literally made all NBA this year. I can't imagine a
world where that language doesn't even exist in the contract.

(15:10):
I would bet that check gets it in terms of
getting that language in the contract as well. Oklahoma City
has a real tendency to just take care of its
guys at the end of the day. But the key
for them is, like do both of those guys? Do
either of those guys? Do none of those guys make
all NBA? Because if Jadab and Chet don't make all NBA,
they're on twenty five percent maxes next year. Right if

(15:34):
they do, they're on thirty percent maxes. If you know
they make all NBA, then you're looking at a circumstance
where those three in Shade take up ninety five percent
of the one hundred and seventy million dollar cap is
what it'll be that offseason, if I remember correctly. Whereas
if neither of them do, it's like eighty percent, right

(15:54):
or seventy five percent or something like that. So there
is like a pretty massive.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
The voters hold their death.

Speaker 2 (16:00):
I don't even know if they hold their destiny, but
they certainly do hold real sway here and how Oklahoma
City's team build will continue to grow. I would expect
them to continue to utilize draft picks. Look, I can
see them using draft picks to go get somebody who
they think is on like an amazing contract or maybe
going to get you know, Like there was a report

(16:23):
today that the Kings like are looking at potentially moving
Devin Carter. Right, if I was Oklahoma City, I'd be like, yep,
that's our guy. Come on down, Devon, we will rehability.

Speaker 1 (16:37):
Is it just Kings being the King?

Speaker 2 (16:38):
You know? I genuinely have no idea. I don't even
know if it's true. Like it was just a report
that came out today from Mike Scatto. I'm sure they've
had at least conversations for Mike to report it. I'm
not questioning Mike in any way, shape or form, but
you know how motivated they are to move him. Who's
to say, right, Like they might want like a lottery pick.
They might want a lottery pick to move Devon Carter
for what I know. But like if Okalo, if they

(17:01):
were willing to do like Uzman jang in number twenty
four for Devin Carter, I'd be like, yeah, Devin, come
join us, like we're ready. Like I can see something
like that where they go get a younger guy, you
know that maybe didn't have the best rookie year, and
then kind of go a different way. But you know,
that's kind of the way that I look at it
for them, right, is they have all this flexibility in

(17:21):
the world. They just have to find a way to
stay cheap and replenish their players. Like I love lou
Dort for this team. I think he's an amazing player
for this group. I do find it a little bit
hard to believe that they're gonna be able to keep
him past this deal, right, And I think they recognize that,
which is why they draft Case and Wallace. I you know,
I'm interested to see how the Alex Russo. Piece of

(17:43):
it works out because he gets a little bit more
expensive next season as well. I would imagine they're gonna
keep replenishing. The big one is Hartenstein obviously, Like, if
there's no way Isaiah Hartenstein can make thirty million within
this team build in twenty twenty six twenty seven, which
would be the third year of his contract, that's a
team option at the very least, I would expect that

(18:05):
to be declined. And maybe Isaiah really just likes, you know,
staying in Oklahoma City, but you know he'll have a
bigger market elsewhere, would be my guess. That's why I
think at fifteen they're probably gonna use it on a
big would be my read on it in some way,
shape or forms, because they need to replenish that position.
But I digress a little bit. My big team building

(18:26):
takeaways from this thing are you look at the teams
that had like real high level success this year, right.
Oklahoma City obviously is the paramount of this. Indiana I
think is a very high end example of this. I
think like Houston is a big example of this. Go

(18:48):
get dudes who are absolute dogs, Like I want guys
who compete, who are going to give you everything that
you need. Who can dribble past, shoot and process the game? Right,
you better be strong, and you better be physical. You
better be able to deal with the physicality that the
playoffs are gonna present. And man, you better be fearless,

(19:10):
right like, And look, these guys that you know in
the draft, right we talk about the drafts. We're gonna
transition there at some point. But like they're eighteen, nineteen,
twenty year old whenever they get drafted, right, you don't
always know, Like these guys are not wholly developed human beings,
right Like, some of these guys that have questions in
that regard right now, they can develop and no longer

(19:34):
be guys that aren't dogs, right, Like, they can become
real dogs. They can become tough dudes. Right. But if
I'm Oklahoma City, if I'm a team around the league,
and if I was building a team, I would be
absolutely just looking for the biggest dogs that I can find,
who are tough, who want it, who really like are

(19:55):
aggressive and fearless, and then on top of it, can
dribble past and process. I think that this year, as
much as anything, proved to me just kind of maybe
this is just me you know, being a little bit
more connected throughout the league as well. Like the intel
piece of this matters so so so much. It's so

(20:16):
incredibly important. And I love what the background research, I mean,
Oklahoma City has, Like I mean, I don't know the
exact number. They have so many dudes that do intel
into these guys, Like they dig and find every single
thing that they can in order to get the best
feel for the guys that they're bringing into their locker room.

(20:37):
I think that's the way to go. I think that's
the way of the future. At the end of the day.
Go get the absolute dudes that you trust to be
the best competitors in the NBA, but they also have
to be able to process the game at a high
level and have dribble pass shoot skills.

Speaker 3 (20:52):
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Speaker 1 (21:26):
This is something you and I've been preaching about forever,
just the competitiveness, because I would argue the competitiveness and
attitude that is what stands between a player's current ability
and his potential in so many different ways. And you know,
I saw a quote, you know, because you need like
a psychopath like Jadabb had forty in finals game. He is.

(21:48):
He just did a very very good job as the
second best player on a championship team. After Game six
of the Denver series, I think he averaged twenty three
points per game on high forties, high thirties from field
goals in three And he had this interview with Scott
Van Pelt and he kind of was like hinting at
imposter syndrome, which is something that I think is really fascinating,

(22:08):
and he was talking about how like you constantly are
wondering if you're good enough, and I was like, as
soon as I heard him saying that, I'm like, this
is the type of dude that I want to go
to war with. This is the type of dude that
I want to have in my corner, the type of
dude that, like, even when he's killing it, even when
he's achieving his goals, he's being eaten at in the
back of his brain that he might not be doing enough,
that he might not be as good as he's capable

(22:29):
of being, because, like I know, it comes with downsides,
and there's a lot of anxiety. And you know, people
who are wired that way can have bad days in
different ways. You know, it's hard for you to find
the fun and things sometimes.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
Honestly, I'm wired that way, so, like, I get it
totally whenever I hear Jadab say that stuff, so I
completely understand.

Speaker 1 (22:47):
It exactly and like, and it's one of those things
where when I when I heard that, I was like,
I was like, ah, man, Like, I just love this kid,
you know, Like, and he's he to me, has been
the most likable Thunder player for me to watch in
this playoff run. I find his game to be very
aesthetically appealing. I love his competitiveness, I love his energy,
and and like, I think he's just a great example

(23:09):
of what you're talking about, and in terms of finding
those sorts of guys there's a there's a kind of
guy out there that like when things get tough and
things get really intense, their eyes almost gloss over and
they become they become kind of like weirdly timid, mainly
just because like there it's just it's just a it's
a psychology thing. I'm not sure what it is, but
I like dudes that are just like that are obsessed

(23:30):
with the competition, that are obsessed with self improvement, that
are obsessed with that sort of element. And this is
a perfect example or of perfect time. First, a pivot
over to the draft. I I want to start with
this idea of your kind of like adjustments as an evaluator.
So one of the things that I thought was fascinating
in your uh, in your top six And by the way,

(23:52):
that for everyone who's listening again, like the finals just
ended the other day.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
UH.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
Sam has been covering the draft all year long. He
does such an incredible job. My goal with this is
not to get to every single player in the draft.
We're just going to hit the top six guys. This
is where Sam has kind of drawn a line of
delineation between them and it's high level starters in below.
I believe. And for the most part, what I want
you guys to do is if you have more intrigue

(24:17):
about the draft, if you guys want to learn more
about the draft all of Jackson put a link to
it in the description of this video, But go read
Sam's Draft guide. It's incredible. It's like two hundred damn pages.
I can't believe how much work you guys put into it.
All that background information is there. You learn about the players' families,
you learn about their upbringings, you learn about the way

(24:37):
that they succeeded at lower levels, incredible detail on strengths
and weaknesses. I'm just going to be giving you guys
my two cents on some film that I watched today.
Sam has been just doing such an incredible work, so
I want to make sure you guys get over there
and support the guide as much as you can. But Sam,
before we get into the actual players, I thought it
was interesting you've got a lot of like movement shooters

(24:58):
in your top six if that was fascinating, and then
this concept of dribbleshoot, passing, and defending. Just talk to
us about how your like outlook on the draft has
changed in recent years and how that colored your approach
this year.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
Yeah, so somewhat It's applicable to what we're talking about
in a lot of ways. Right, So I I like
guys that are physically strong enough and that are like
wild competitors and are incredibly like you know, mentally tough.
So like a good example of this is Trey Johnson. Right.

(25:32):
It actually took me meeting Trey Johnson and like watching
him work out to understand because if you watch Trey Johnson, Like,
what was your immediate take of Trey Johnson when you
watched his game?

Speaker 1 (25:45):
Unbelievable scoring potential, but he's he's moving just a little
too fast right now, Like he just needs the game
to slow down a little bit. Yeah, that was the
main thing that set out.

Speaker 2 (25:53):
A little bit of that for sure. Also, just like
the physicality, Like he's not overly physical right now, right,
you know it doesn't necessarily I've in straight lines to
the rim because he just like kind of can't hold
his ground, right. But then you watch him work out,
Like I watched this dude workout, Jason. I swear to god,
it was the most impressive shooting workout I've ever seen
from a teenager. He sprinted for an hour, knockdown shots

(26:18):
off of all sorts of like different complicated actions, the
stamina to be able to run for this long, the
ability to be able to knock down shots at this level.
And then I go up to him after I literally say,
Trey that that was one of the most impressive workouts
I've ever seen from a teenager as a shooter, and
I just wanted to say, like, congrats, like that was awesome, right,
And he goes, thank you, Like I appreciate that so much. Honestly,

(26:41):
I shot better yesterday. And I walk over to his
trader and he goes he goes, yeah, he shot better yesterday,
and I was like, wow, Like that's pretty ridiculous. So
the thing that you learn about Trey Johnson though, when
you do the intel, is like this dude's like a
competitor and like a dog, and like he wants it.
He wants to be great in a significant way. He

(27:02):
really wants like he will do whatever it takes to
be great at basketball. I think that he'll problem solve
it in the way that he has to problem solve
it in order to become a real Like, dude, there's
a basketball player at the end of the day, So
like with him, you know, doesn't probably the player I
guess that. I mean outside of Ace maybe, but like
a player that doesn't totally fit on like the face

(27:25):
of what we talked about in the last section of
certain things. But then you get to understand who the
human is and you're like, oh no, I'm just betting
on this dude, you know what I mean, Like he'll
figure it out at the end.

Speaker 1 (27:36):
Of the day.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
He like he's an elite shooter. I saw a video
of him, so it was I think it was Shots.
There's a second workout of the day and they track
all of the shots that a guy takes pre draft
right with I forget what the app is. Sorry, I'm
not shouting it out. One of my my friends who's
his trainer is literally just yelling that I can't remember

(27:58):
the name of this app. It was Shots. I think
like seventeen fifty to seventeen eighty of the day, or
maybe make like seventeen fifty to seventeen eighty of the day.
Every single shot that Trey Johnson took, they have the
arc like behind the ball right, like it's a golf shot,

(28:20):
like a tracer right. Every single shot had the same
exact arc every single time on shot seventeen fifty to
seventeen eighty. It was like rhythmic and like weirdly soothing
and calming, kind of like do you don't understand what
I'm saying? Like just watching it?

Speaker 1 (28:40):
Oh it again. I found watching him so much fun
to watch compared to Ace Bailey, just in terms of
the shot mechanics. The shot mechanics are so so so
beautiful with him, he was my favorite player I watched
itzz I'm excited.

Speaker 2 (28:52):
To Yeah, I really like Trey a lot. I kind
of regret there's a man I think that I probably
should have him ahead of five honestly, Like the more
that I just do this, the more I buy. But regardless,
I digress in terms.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
Of that imposter syndrome.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
Yeah, all the time ever happens. I'm constantly tinkering, constantly
trying to figure out what's right, what's wrong. As long
as I get them in the right tiers, I feel okay.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
So to answer your question basically, in terms of like
the way that I've changed this, I care a lot
more about the things that I kind of mentioned, right, Like,
I care a lot more about are you physically capable
of dealing with NBA. You know, physicality, I guess is
the way to put it. Are you capable of handling

(29:41):
what's going to come your way mentally? Are you capable
of being able to dribble, past shoot and process the
game at a high level? Right? Uh? Are you going
to be able to map the court defensively and understand
where you need to go? There? Like that? There's so
much more that goes into this and just like you
know that boy, nice basketball whenever it comes to the NBA,

(30:05):
Like this stuff is hard, right, It's why I like, honestly,
I I have a lot of questions about Derek Queen.
I know you haven't gotten to him yet, but like
you know, I have questions about him as a shooter.
I have questions about him as a defender. But I
kind of think that he's just physically capable and is
a total ass kicker at Maryland And he's six' nine

(30:27):
with a seven to one wingspan and can you, know
get to his spots on some level and just grew
up Play he's like one of those kids that grew
up playing basketball against guys older than, him and because of,
that he just has this ability to get to where
he has to get to. Right he understands what it.
Takes SO i you, know it's a it's a tricky,

(30:50):
question but basically everything we talked about in the last
section With Oklahom, city With, indiana you, know even With,
HOUSTON i think fits into. This getting guys who can
dribble past shoot high level processing. Ability, yeah that's kind
of the move for. ME i want those guys on my.

Speaker 1 (31:03):
Team so explain two more quick ones and then we'll
get into the. Players explain to everyone why you said
in your, draft in Your draft guide infro that you
were lower than the content consensus after the top. Two
what do you think led you to that? Belief was
there something specific or was it just naturally how you

(31:24):
landed on each.

Speaker 2 (31:25):
INDIVIDUAL i think that some people see star power in this,
Group LIKE i think that some people, think, like, Oh Trey,
johnson like he might be like a twenty eight per
point per game. Scorer Ace bailey is obviously a guy
that people see a lot of upside in THAT i
am skeptical on for a few. Reasons you, KNOW i
think people see real upside IN. Vj edgecombe right to

(31:47):
be like a potential star in THE. NBA i think
those guys are all going to be like good starters
is Where i'm, At Like i'm NOT i like. THEM
i like them as. PLAYERS i think they're gonna be solid.
PLAYERS i think they're all going to make like nine
figure in THE nba and be super successful in THE.
NBA i still know THAT i see, real like high
level star outcomes for those guys, necessarily AND i think

(32:09):
that might be WHERE i differ from consensus with this.
Group and that's like, again LIKE i think they're all
gonna be really really good, players AND i think like
there are a number of players below, this Like Cedric,
Coward Colin, Murray, Boyles Carter, Bryant common Mala Watch like
Mala watch is another one THAT i think people see, like,
oh like he might be like a real all defense

(32:29):
guy who can step out and shoot it Like Miles
turner maybe at some point and can do, this that
and the other. Thing And i'm just, like, No, LIKE
i see a really solid starting center here who's almost
certainly positioned position locked in the center, position definitely a
drop coverage big will be okay when he gets caught
on an island, switching like not gonna be a monster

(32:51):
at That, necessarily you're not gonna go into a game
scheming that he's gonna, switch you know WHAT i. Mean,
so and he's gonna be a good. PLAYER i think
he's gonna be like a, valable starting caliber center in THE. Nba, Basically,
YEAH i think that might be WHERE i differ on
this group is BASICALLY i see a little bit less
star power than people, do but do see some real

(33:11):
potential for high end starters in the.

Speaker 1 (33:15):
Class that makes. Sense and the guys you're, mentioning they
they all do have those. Flashes it's Just i'm with.
YOU i TEND i tend to lean more towards the
other side with those specific two. Guys the second. Round
this has been something THAT i think has been. Interesting,
yeah kind of in the building for a. While but

(33:37):
obviously nil convincing players to return leads to a weaker draft.
Pool that's simple mathematics, problem, Right but as this even
beyond the, draft LIKE i would imagine this is affecting trade,
negotiations like what five second round picks going To phoenix
in THAT kd? Deal how? Value how valuable is the
second round? Pick? Now these, days with all the players staying.

Speaker 2 (33:59):
In potentially quite a bit. LOWER i would tell, You,
jason this is a this is a week second. ROUND
i have fewer like full guarantee grades Than i've ever,
had and it might get worse next. Year like obviously
everything is getting settled with The house, settlement with college
basketball and like THE nil, space and you, know supposedly

(34:20):
THE sec schools are going to have way less to
spend than The Big east. SCHOOLS i, mean look like
we can have an adult conversation about. This if anybody
thinks that schools in THE sec are going to spend
less than The Big east, Schools i'm just gonna be
skeptical of that until it. Happens, Right, like we can
all say that these schools have twenty million dollars to

(34:41):
spend on football and basketball, programs and some teams probably
want to spend a little bit on women's basketball. Too
i'm skeptical that they're not going to get a little
bit more money in there to be able to get
these kids into school and be able to get these kids.
Go so, LOOK i look at it that. Way if

(35:05):
you want to, say, like oh, yeah like The House
settlement's gonna force some of these kids come out again next.
Year totally understand that. Perspective we'll see what. Happens it's
gonna be something that bears itself out over the next.
Year BUT i, mean, like this is a very weak.
POOL i have thirty six guarantee guys and next, Year
like you have to think about it this, Way, jason

(35:27):
there are a lot of players in this pool that
got an extra year from the from THE covid, year, Right,
yeah like freshman in twenty twenty twenty, one there are
still a number of these guys that got the EXTRA covid. Year,
BASICALLY i think everybody on my board ranked from forty

(35:47):
three With Bryce, Williams, Chaslnier, Brooks, barnheiser, Micahpv Max, Schulga
Kobe bray of Lad golden so forty three to fifty,
one every player got an EXTRA covid, year, Right so
those players are now gone from. College now it's only
going to be like the four year seniors that are

(36:08):
going to be in in the second. ROUND i only
HAVE i think, one no two four year seniors right.
NOW i Have Hunter sallas AND i have who was?
It it was Just Cam jones At. Marquette that's that's.
It like you'd be bumping all these other guys up

(36:32):
a level Like Jami. MAYSHACK i Love Jami mayshack is
one of my favorite players in the. CLASS i think
that you might be able to make a case he's
one of the twenty best perimeter defenders on Planet earth right,
Now LIKE i think he is that good on. Defense
he can't offense like he, is like the easiest way
to phrase it is he can't offense right. Now unbelievable,

(36:53):
competitor unbelievable leader At, Tennessee like just doesn't really have
that skill at this, point not a. Shooter doesn't seem
super comfortable handling the. BALL i don't know how he's
gonna score comfortable passing for. Sure, YEAH i think he's
below Where Ryan dunn was as an offensive, player for.
Sure but that, guy like next, year if he was

(37:14):
in the class and we get a similar number of
kids that, enter he'd be damn near like thirty eight
on my, board like a top forty guy that would
be like almost expected to get a guarantee, contract like
a full roster spot on a. Team so, YEAH i,
Mean nil has really obliterated the second, round and it's

(37:38):
possible that the house settlement really changes the paradigm a
little bit here and forces some of these kids out
again next, year and thus would make the second round,
picks to answer your original, question more valuable again into the.
Future and IF i was a team that was moving
second round picks, around, RIGHT i would want picks that
are like a little bit further out into the future

(38:00):
in order to like make the, bet you know WHAT i.
Mean but, yeah that's kind of Where i'm at on.
It i'd like a little bit of.

Speaker 1 (38:07):
It it's super, interesting AND i think it'll change a
little bit with each with each passing, year as like
different kind of situations surrounding both the league and like
what like expansion could have an effect on that if
that took place at some point in the next couple of.
Years there's you, know we can see continuing changes in
terms of how much money goes to g. Leaguers, like

(38:27):
there's so many things that could change over the. Years
But i've found this whole dynamic about our pipeline to
THE nba to be very. Fascinating but let's get to
our top six. Guys sam number one, Obviously Cooper fly
going to The Dallas, mavericks almost. Certainly you said that
this is the second highest grade in Your draft guide
in the last, decade Behind Victor Weiman. Yama explain for

(38:49):
everybody why you're so high On cooper.

Speaker 2 (38:51):
Fly, yeah he's just the safest player really That i've a.
Value he's even safer Than victor on sub level Because
victor had dealt with injuries. Previously but like speaking to
the competitiveness, aspect like the, toughness the, physicality the willingness
to like fight and scratch and claw for every, inch
Like Cooper flagg just completely changed the entire program At

(39:14):
duke through his presence as a freshman who is LIKE
i think seventeen when he got, There like he completely
changed everything that they. Did you hear AT Usa basketball
last summer in The select, Camp like he went there
and it was like totally, fearless had no, issues was completely.

(39:34):
Comfortable it was one of the better players on the
select team last year of guys that are in THE
nba and presumably should be starring in THE, nba even
though they might not be quite there. Yet, Right so
there's a there's gonna be no fear with him entering THE.
Nba he is an incredible. Defender his positional defense is.

(39:55):
Unbelievable he has some stuff with like high HIPS i
think where he'll you, know not even high, hips just
like a little bit stiffness through his, hips maybe where
he will get beaten a little bit more often on
the ball than WHAT i think people. Expect but he's
really good at leading his man into the help even
when he does get beaten off the, ball and his

(40:16):
recovery ability is. Awesome he gives consistent second and third.
Efforts he just completely understands how to process the, game
how to map the. Court he's going to be a
real defensive. Playmaker, offensively he developed into a serious mismatch
threat who became an awesome shot. Maker this year reminds
me like a little bit of the way That Pascal
siakam gets it done, right where he, is, yes very

(40:42):
capable of getting a smaller guy on a switch and
just beating them to the rim, right like he will
be able to just like use his athleticism in burst
to be able to get all the way to the.
Basket he's like six' eight with a seven to, one
wingspan like there are no. Issues there then there are
also moments where he is just he's gonna find like
eight to ten points a game by cutting an establishing position,

(41:05):
that way or just getting a backdoor cut to the rim,
and scoring getting out, in transition running, the court leading,
the break or just like filling lanes or offensive rebounding
and being able to crash the glass consistently and find points.
That way it's like the best dirty work player in
the class kind of while also being this real mismatch
threat who can break you down off, the dribble get

(41:26):
to a step, back jumper get to a, turnaround jumper
make them going to both his right and to. His
left he's a. Ridiculous player he's a completely absurd. Basketball
player for somebody to be eighteen years old and have
this kind of a complete basketball game. Is absurd it's.
Completely ridiculous it does, not. Happen guys i'm, telling you

(41:47):
it does not happen where guys are this complete when.
THEY'RE young i think that this is like A real
this is going to be like a top five guy
in the league at some point in terms of like.
Impacting winning some people will complain about the questions, he
has like being able to separate from, his MAN but
i think he might just develop into such a good
shooter because he's such a good worker that it's not.

(42:09):
Gonna matter like he's gonna shoot over the top of
these guys and it's gonna. BE fine.

Speaker 1 (42:15):
I think That's the tatum comp that you keep seeing
thrown around is like this idea of a guy who
is incredibly versatile that does literally everything well at every
level of both sides of. The Ball but tatum has
this tendency to struggle to get leverage against the peak
defenders in the. LEAGUE downhill i love that you Brought

(42:35):
up siakam because, to me that is the big Difference
between Cooper. And tatum tatum loves taking. Jump shots and
it's not just a it's not just a getting. Separation
thing it's not just a first. Step Thing like tatum
has a pretty jump shot and he loves, taking it
and it's just like part of like his. Basketball character
he loves to take. Jump shots cooper has that downhill.

(42:57):
Attacking attitude it's it literally looks like he's playing on
a slant downhill towards. The room you can tell that's
part of his approach on a possession to possession basis that,
to me he is the quintessential example of everything you
mentioned off the top of the show today in terms, of, dribble, shoot.
Pass defend he is that at, six' ten he is

(43:19):
that at this level of athleticism that you don't see
too often. With his size. He is that but like
everything isn't, just you know we talk about. The role,
players you know we're GONNA. Talk about vj edgecom and
what he might be able to become as like a, role, player,
dribble shoot pass defend Kind of guy. Cooper does it
but like everything's an as are better already and it's
only going to continue to get better as team as.

(43:42):
As THINGS expand like i loved your breakdown and your
guide about kind of like people don't realize, because You
know at duke it wasn't, quite the same but he
was an incredible defensive, play before college like a like
a legitimate like five stocks against going it would just Put,
up absurd.

Speaker 2 (44:01):
Yeah like truly historic defensive playmaker before he. Got to
college like there's a game if you want to go
watch Him against the. Spanish national team he's Playing Under
seventeen world cup in the gold medal match against the
team that had Like ethan al Monson And a dai
mara like high major college players, to you know high level.

(44:22):
Professional basketball Players in, al monson's CASE he was i
can't remember if he's, fourteen, or fifteen right like he.
Was super young he's like at least two years below
his age group or two, years playing up two years
with his age group, with you know the best players in.
His age group in, the literal world it was two years.

(44:42):
Playing up right he had like nine blocks and five
steals or something. In this game he completely dominated the
game just. Through defensive Activity it was it's honestly one
of The coolest games i've ever seen a player play,
at that level where he completely took it over through
being a dog, and, like, deciding yet no you guys

(45:05):
aren't doing anything, with me today. NO matter what i
might not have the skill level that, you Guys do
but i'm gonna figure It out and i'm gonna beat
you guys at the end.

Speaker 1 (45:13):
Of the day, he has this and you broke this
down really well in your, guide as well that this
like anticipation piece and this, competitiveness piece TOO that all i,
could think, about You know as i'm watching HIM through,
the ncaa Tournament and as i'm watching, FILM this morning i,
just imagine him, within you know three FOUR years, of

(45:35):
nba basketball becoming such a high level, defensive processor too
as a guy that can kind of suss out actions
and get out in. Front of them he has this
like rangy ability, to cover ground which. IS super valuable
i within the respect of within The. Context of dallas,
do YOU think because i love the Idea of Watching

(45:55):
Cooper and anthony davis, play defense together do you think
he has the ability to play the three alongside ad.
IN a.

Speaker 2 (46:02):
CENTER i do i THINK his best i think the
best thing that they will do is probably when they're
playing him at the four and playing a d. At
the five but They Obviously, have derek lively and they're
gonna Want To get derek lively on the court as much.
AS possible too i do think he can. PLAY the
three i don't really see an issue. There at all
he's comfortable enough playing, with the ball playing in, Ball
screens defensively he's going to be able, to handle. IT

(46:24):
no problem i think he'll probably be a little bit
better at the four if he made, me GUESS really
what i want him to be able to do is
just roam around and be like a monster help. Defender
like that that would be the best, role for him
is if you could find a way to actualize that,
in his game because that's what he was in high
school and he was just like truly elite at that,

(46:45):
in high school just roaming around and being able to
wreak havoc across the. COURT that, WAY i look i
might like, be you know a little bit Too strong on.
COOPER or something i actually kind of love this, team
built now like in. A real Way i think nico
fell ass backwards into it and probably doesn't deserve a

(47:06):
whole lot of. Credit for it but like you tell
me that You're, Giving Me, cooper Anthony Davis, and derek
lively and then You're gonna get kyrie, back as well probably,
late next, season you, know fully healthy probably in twenty
twenty six, to twenty seven a man like it'll Depend on,

(47:28):
How clay ages it'll Depend on how kyrie comes back.
From the injury you could sell me that that team's,
a title contender like you could maybe not, year one
obviously But, your Two cooper if kyrie, is fully healthy
like you could sell me that that's like a fifty
five win team if it breaks right for them and
they make, The right moves like they're, gonna figure out
like how To Utilize the, daniel GAFFORD. Asset the pj washington.

(47:52):
Asset this year there are things they're. Gonna FIGURE out
and i think they're gonna struggle a little bit this
year just because they don't have that offensive. Playmaker right,
now but dude like that infrastructure. IS really SICK i
think i am a fan of. It for sure.

Speaker 1 (48:07):
It'd be a fun year to get The ball to
cooper a lot and just kind of see what he
can do, on, the ball, especially you know like he,
he to me is the versatility you mentioned to me
also comes in the form of offensive utility in the
sense that this word kind of does bring Me back
TO tatum or i see him being a guy who can,
play low, post high post face, up ball screens. INVERTED

(48:31):
ball screens i can literally see him functioning in so
many different types OF actions that i kind of see
him being kind of like, a shape shifter. So to
Speak as as dallas is going through a, very you
know kind of tumultuous era in terms, of ROSTER turnover
because i. Wouldn't be, SURPRISED you know i think They,
could move gafford and THEY. Could move pj. WASHINGTON this

(48:52):
summer i think they probably should considering their starting caliber
players that don't have a role on this team in.
The starting lineup but there you could Talk me into
dallas going into the season with a glut of forwards and,
just being like let's see how this goes and then
we'll make a move. At the deadline and if, that's
the case like you're gonna get to see a lot
of this sort Of versatility from cooper and him filling

(49:13):
all these different. TYPES of positions i have my concerns
about his, absolute top end just simply because of like
some of the first step quickness and like ability to
get separation. From ELITE defenders but i the way you
characterize to him as like the safest BET is where
i fall firmly in, line with you like there's, just no,
chance Barring injury that cooper flag isn't a very VERY very.

(49:35):
Good nba player he's like bustproof, in that regard just
because there is this combination of a traits. At every
position is he the biggest most athletic forward? Of, All
time no but he's gonna be one of the bigger
and more athletic FORWARDS. In the nba is he the best? Ball,
handling forward no but he's gonna be one of the
better ball handling FORWARDS. In the nba he's just he's
he's above average at every single considerably above average at.

(50:00):
Every single trait and then it goes back to what
we talk about. At the top he's just. An mffort
dude he's just like he's just going out there with his,
hair on fire trying to win every single game and
trying to gain. Every single, advantage and, that to me
is the kind of guy that you want to build.
Your franchise Around Number. Two dylan harper, first of all

(50:21):
before we even get into him, as a player do
you do You think the spurs are just gonna take
him and just? Figure IT out?

Speaker 2 (50:26):
What, I do yeah i would expect they. Just take
him here's. The reason why If, you're the Spurs, you
have Victor You, have, daron fox now you, Have You.
Know devin vessel seemingly it seems like they're not going.
To move him you have all these dudes right that
are pretty good At, basketball around victor who we think
is probably gonna be one of the five best players
in the, league, Next year right like you're probably not

(50:48):
picking number. Two overall Again and, IF i'm them i
want to accumulate the elite talent and then just figure,
it out later figure out the what. Fits, WHAT doesn't
honestly i THINK he's A I think dylan harper is
a Better Prosper. Than Steph castle So i'm picking dylan
and then FIGURING out if i Have to, move castle later, As,
OPPOSED to Oh i, have castle already let's move down,

(51:09):
and you know not take him in Favor, of actualizing
castle YOU know? What, I mean.

Speaker 1 (51:16):
No i agree. WITH you, there i think, LIKE in,
general i believe especially considering the tear we were talking
about before the before, We STARTED recording, like i, thought,
you Know, oh kankor nipple if you think of him
as like just a big shooter who's really smart and
who can pass coming off, of screening actions it's just
so Much Utility With, victor webman yama there's so many

(51:37):
like different things that, make sense there especially On a.
Deeron fox team you can imagine him slipping out of.
Guard guard Screens, with deeron fox there's all these different
things you, can figure out but the bottom line is
is like if you Had to trade khan or you Had,
to trade dylan you're gonna just get so Much, more
for dylan and he's just a substantially better asset that
you can. Move forward With And The san antonio spurs

(51:57):
are already going to have to make some sort of
roster bound trade at some point. In the future it's just.
Kind of inevitable so, to your point you, take the
asset you figure. It out later my FIRST takeaway When
i watch DYLAN today and i have the, jump shot
stuff is super interesting with him for me because there
are so many examples of this kind of player, in

(52:19):
basketball history where an on ball dominant guard shoots the
ball pretty well off the dribble but can't shoot it,
Off The catch like shae is this, type of, GUY
and shit i actually see Some corollaries Between. SHANE and
dial I don't Think dylan has shay's first step or anything,
close to it but what he does have is like
that downhill big guard approach Mixed with like dylan's so

(52:40):
good at chaining, together counter moves which kind of reminds
me a Little. Bit of shay the big Thing though
with dylan FOR me is i feel like his shot
is a little down in front of his face and
it's got a little bit of a, Long LOAD up
and i think that that's super interesting because even in
the catch, and shoot stuff he's like deadly, when he's
open but it falls off a cliff when. He's being
guarded and, so to me like whether or not he reaches,

(53:03):
his inevitable upside his eventual upside will come down to
some shot mechanics stuff like like kind of like making
the release a little, bit more compact a little, bit
more arc a, little bit quicker those. Sorts of things
but in terms of just being a big downhill guard
that can get, to his spots there's just such a
it's such a rare thing in basketball, at his size
and that's what gets me. Excited about him and tell

(53:24):
everybody Why You. Have, Dylan harper yeah so.

Speaker 2 (53:26):
First and foremost you read on what he needs to improve,
is dead on because you know that's exactly what he's working.
On PRE draft like i went and saw him work
out like that is exactly he was doing all sorts
of pull up shots off, of ball, screens you. Know, reading, this,
OKAY defender here i need to get to my step
back to my right and then be able to, shoot

(53:46):
with balance going, up with force, everything like that YOU know.
What i mean so all of that is what he's trying,
to WORK on and i think what they see as
the next. Step for him enormous frame first and foremost
six four and a half six ten and half wingspan
eight six standing reach just, like a massive massive lead
guard right uses that size incredibly well to be able.

(54:08):
To maintain advantages good at creating that initial advantage, with
the shiftiness the. CREATIVITY of handle i think we often
like think about guys who can like, string together moves
maybe don't, string together moves but like who have like
sudden moves as being these, great ball handlers and. Oftentimes
THEY are but i think That one makes dylan a
great ball handler is the creativity that he has in terms,

(54:31):
of his gathers in terms of his ability to get
from one spot to another. With the ball the creative
mindset with which he thinks about. Stringing moves, together you know,
he'll go hesitation, right, to left crossover, left, to right
crossover take, one step forward spin back off, Of the
defender he's setting. Guys up constantly he's playing the chess

(54:54):
match in his head for how he thinks you're gonna
react before you react or like before you actually make
the decision on how. You react right but then on,
top of it he is actively manipulating you to be
able to do. Those things right he just thinks about
ball handling and getting to his spots in really really
creative ways at the end.

Speaker 3 (55:15):
Of.

Speaker 2 (55:15):
The day, totally BUT again like i Would argue that
shaye like didn't have a monster first step Coming. OUT
of kentucky i thought he had a. Good first step
it was more of The what makes. SHAYE so, special
i mean this is getting into like the really, Nitty
GREE stuff Like i think shae's like ankle like his

(55:37):
ability to like put force through his ankles on balance
and like be able to maintain balance in. Such awkward
positions it is Like unlike anything, i've ever seen, to
be honest him being able to like extend through these
weird and like split defenders while extending through and navigating

(55:58):
all of these bodies in tight like that's what. MAKES
him Special i think dylan has. Some of that i'm
not going to sit, here and say like he Is
Like The shay gilges alexander superpower to be able. To
DO that What i think dylan is, really good at
and this is why he drives so much rim pressure
at the end, of the day is that he's really
really good at navigating those bodies on the interior and

(56:19):
setting them up in different ways to be able to
get to the spots. That he wants just looking through, the,
numbers here, Oh exceptionally rare like? Doesn't, HAPPEN rare basically
i think there are. PROBABLY a few i can't think
of them off the top, of my head but like

(56:40):
there are a few that got to the rim. AT
this level i think he took like five shots at
the rim and half court settings per, game this year
despite The fact that rutgers had like the worst spacing
in the, history of basketball and like it was crazy
how often he got to the rim is. Some horrendous
hoops like YOU understand what i, Have, To watch, jason

(57:01):
you understand like why whenever we GET to the nba
playoffs and just like, This is, amazing like basketball, it's the, Best,
Isn't it guys like this. IS so good i Had
To watch rutger i'd watch a Thousand minutes of rutgers,
basketball this year like this is. Where, we're at yeah
just like so good at navigating bodies and the paint
those how to find increases in an. Elite level balance

(57:23):
this tremendous ability to finish both off one. Or two
feet it can go around you. If you're longer he's
willing to go and like he goes in straight lines,
to the rim he will, go through you go through
a defender's chest if he has to to get. To
the rim really good. At drawing fouls got much better
at finishing at the, basket this year despite the fact
that they, had no spacing uh sixty five point three percent,

(57:46):
at the rim hit over sixty two percent. Of his
layups that was a, big development actually because he was
not always great at that. In high school you could see.
The potential though you could see the way that he
understood how, to use angles and he would have some
like crazy highlight reel finishes, in high school but finished
like in the thing he was like, in the fifties

(58:06):
basically right in terms of percentages this year is at
sixty five point three and really figured out how to
use his frame at a. Really, high level yeah catch
and shoot like real shooter is a catch and shoot
guy two to one. ASSISTANT turnover ratio i think we
should talk about the passing real. QUICK as well i
don't think you've got to see like crazy passing stuff
if You watch the, rutgers tape necessarily if you go
back and WATCH some like, usa basketball stuff if you

(58:29):
go back AND watch. Some aau stuff he has some
real PASSING ability that i think we didn't get to
see quite as. Much this year that he can, really
make plays particularly live dribble with. His left hand he's
extremely comfortable shooting that ball out with velocity, to the
corner to. The cross wing he'll throw lobs at a
highlight like he just has a real understanding of how

(58:49):
to make plays if that's what he's being.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
Tasked, with doing, yeah you know his timing stood out
to me on both the passing and. The scoring front
the on the, PLAY making front i sometimes felt like
like he would come off of a screen and face,
a HARD hedge and I think sometimes i thought he'd
get rid of it a, touch too quickly or a
touch too like on a line instead of. On the

(59:12):
loft sometimes he'd throw that cross COURT pass when i
felt like he could have pressed like just a half
second longer to get the lowman to commit just a
little bit further before. He threw it like it felt
like sometimes the timing of his passing was just. A
touch off but again that could be associated with the
spacing that you're talking about with. His scoring ability the timing,

(59:33):
is SO sharp and i think this actually plays a
big role in, his finishing because like you, talked about it.
Guards miss layups that's just what they, do in basketball
EVEN at, The nba level like you're gonna see guards,
make you know maybe fifty five percent of their layups
because it's just there's so much athleticism around the rim
and it's just difficult to finish in TRAFFIC, IN the
nba i feel like a big part Of what made

(59:55):
dylan such a good finisher is just the timing of
when he would attack and his change. OF pay sequences
i think that if he can build out that playmaking
piece that, you're talking about and if he can add
the refinement to, the jump shooting there's like real, legitimate
UPSIDE there and i think that's important for. People to
Understand Like, in sam's tears Here he's got cooper as

(01:00:16):
a number one tier and Then he's got dylan as,
a NUMBER two which i believe you mean you you
view him to be a safe bet To Be? An all? Star?

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
Is, that LIKE yeah if i was projecting out like,
outcomes here RIGHT the way i think of this. All
is in this might come from like, having grown up
like playing poker and. Everything LIKE that like i think of, It,
as like okay what kind OF outcome am i? Betting
on Here like if i'm putting my money in betting
on An Outcome, WITH dylan harper, i would Say like
all star would. Be my bet i'm where he ends

(01:00:43):
up settling in maybe like a LOWER end. ALL nba
player i can see a world where he. Reaches that
status but if he made me, say RIGHT now like
i feel better about saying he's gonna Be Like an all.
Star caliber guard.

Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
But this is, A real guard this is, A real
prospect this is a this is a really high level
player there. AT number two i want to go somewhat
quickly through number three AND four because i do want
to spend some time on my favorite. Watch From today
trey johnson, CON to, me, i, think yeah, yeah that
too SO so the i Thought you having con all

(01:01:17):
the way up at number three was really. Fascinating To
me and i've been thinking about this concept a lot
over the last week Because Of the Desmond Bane and,
kevin durant trades which is just the simple, idea that
like if you have a guy that can run off
of a screen and hit enough of the jump shots
that it actually dictates that the coverage must, account for
it meaning you must bring your big man up to
the level, of the screen and that guy is capable

(01:01:37):
of passing out of those actions The Way that, desmond
band can The Way that. KEVIN durant can i think
it's one of the most underrated value PIECES. In The
Nba like kevin raan was one of the best jump
shooters in was the best jump shooter in basketball last Year,
According to, SYNERGY so like i think that that is
still such. A Valuable skill and I'M not saying I
would have, con AT three but i do love this

(01:01:58):
idea of the yeah of having a guy that can
legitimately be a threat to both shoot in pass coming
off of screening actions as a huge bit of value
while also being in the context of what we talked
about earlier while having positional positional size and being a
competitive dude that plays. Really hard defense so explain to
everybody Why you have con at all the way up.

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
At number three he doesn't really, HAVE a hole i
would argue in his. Game like that that's the big
thing For me whenever i'm trying, to, Figure, out like
okay this guy's gonna be like a really, High level
starter i'm so glad You Brought up desmond bane because
That's the guy I've been comparing con to throughout the entirety.

Speaker 3 (01:02:33):
Of.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
This, THING yeah really i think. It's very similar he, is,
an elite elite. Elite level shooter it, Is insanely, rare
like forget LIKE how rare i, Just talked about, Like
You know dylan harper's rim pressure is for somebody to
shoot forty eight forty one ninety one as a TEENAGER,
In the acc like almost go fifty to forty ninety

(01:02:55):
as a teenager. Is unheard of guys like. That is
insane con is one of those guys who is capable
of morphing his game to. WHAT is required i think
is the easiest way. To say it did you watch
ANY of the acc. Tournament this year in the tape
that You, WATCHED of cohn i.

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
Went, back Quite away as I'M pretty sure i watched
two or three OF his the.

Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
Acc tournament games.

Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
He stepped up A lot when cooper.

Speaker 2 (01:03:21):
Was exactly RIGHT so the acc tournament games are The
ones where cooper was out and he was the one
that was, running the show and he averaged like over
twenty points per GAME On. THE acc tournament mvp clearly
showed that his game, can scale up and the reality
was this year it, was, just, LIKE no like i
need to be the number Two. GUY with cooper i
need to be the secondary ball handler, who, can, dribble
fast shoot make plays, off ball screens knock down shots at,

(01:03:44):
a high level and then defensively like he's always in.
The right position it's funny like people, will, bring up Oh,
Like how conkainipple like he's never gonna be able to
DEFEND at, The nba level like he's never gonna be able,
to do this never be able. To do that look at,
how he moves like, all These things and, i'm, just
like guys this guy was a Better Defender than ace
bailey this. Year in college i'm not gonna sit here
and Tell You that ace bailey doesn't have more Defensive Potential.

(01:04:07):
Than conkin nipple. He absolutely does there is so much
of a greater Feeling where if ace was to really
commit on defense and was to like lock in and
be engaged all the, time on defense of course he
would be better than. Con on defense i'm just telling
you what the tape says in college that con was
a Better Defender than ace bailey. Was this year and

(01:04:28):
that's because. He's always engaged he always makes. The right rotations,
he's bumping cutters, he's tagging rollers he's finding he's helping
the helper like he's always available. To his teammates he
always makes. The right rotations then, on the ball physical strength.
Gets really underrated. It just does he is a. Super
strong dude he is two hundred and fifteen two hundred and.

(01:04:50):
Twenty pounds already it's hard to go. Through his chest
if he beats you, to the spot you aren't. Going
through him he has a low center of gravity and he.
Is very physical it is very similar to what You See.
With Desmond baine desmond bain's a little bit Quicker than
WHAT con, is i think but he's, not as tall,
And you know bain is. A tank obviously con is

(01:05:13):
like very strong through his lower, center of gravity holds
his line really really, well on drives and even if
he does end, up getting beaten he ends up leading
guys into. Help extremely well, he is very very. Smart
and intelligent he processes the game at. A high level
the off ball ability. IS a mover i mean. He's
constantly relocating he's constantly making sure that he is creating

(01:05:36):
opportunities for his teammates. To have space he's constantly creating
opportunities for himself to be able to have an angle
for an. Easier kickout pass he just thinks the game
at such. A high level these are the kind OF
guys that i want to go into battle with as,
a YOU know if i, was A coach if i
was on, the team SIDE evaluating like I Would want
kank nipple and my team at the end. Of the day.
Is the reality.

Speaker 1 (01:05:58):
The power element is interesting because it kind of reminds
me of what we were Talking about with cooper earlier
in terms, of THE versatility because i just see him
being able to function in so many different kinds, of
ways offensively decoy action to, occupy help, defenders you know
a third three man action where he's the backscreener in
like stack pick and. ROLL ghost screens i actually think

(01:06:18):
he's got like a little bit of potential to potentially
be a switch beater in terms of like against size
and like working closer to the basket. WITH his like
i think he's got enough touch from the mid range
and enough size and just especially with his competitiveness to
continue to build this out over time to be a
guy that can be useful in just so many. Different
ways offensively, and you're right he's gonna have to find

(01:06:39):
the ability to succeed within a defensive SCHEME in. The
nba level but you know what. He's gonna do he's
gonna come in. In day one he's gonna start communicating. With
the staff he's gonna, start figuring OUT how do i
find a way to be a good defender for you guys.
Within that CONTEXT number FOUR vj edgecomp i look at
this is kind OF you know i put down. In
my notes these guys are different kinds of EYES, con

(01:07:02):
and vj but they to me represent still a type
of player that you need to have off, of your
stars which is a guy, who, can dribble shoot pass
And De fen now vj's not gonna shoot The way,
that con does but if you, leave him open he's gonna.
Knock it, down he's, got you know a. Simple compact
release he gets good. Lift on it he uh is
like a guy that has a little bit of. Pop

(01:07:23):
driving closeouts he can. Attack and transition it's so funny
the guy who's the player that you compared him to when.

Speaker 2 (01:07:29):
We, Were talking yeah i've been saying that it's Kind
Of like gary harris with.

Speaker 1 (01:07:33):
A jet, pack that's right.

Speaker 2 (01:07:35):
Just way More, athletic than gary but like not a
great ball handler, Creator right now like if you blitz him,
in ball screens it's, a real issue YOU know, What
i mean like it's a he had. Problems with that
his left hand is not great in terms of his.
Handle right now he can struggle with that. Quite, A
bit uh and he doesn't really use his left. As
a finisher he started doing a little bit late. In

(01:07:57):
the year but you know there are some things that
he has to work.

Speaker 1 (01:08:00):
On for SURE you you i point you POINTED out
when i, brought this Up THAT. That aaron e, smith
Is BIGGER. But aaron e smith was THE guy that
i was THINKING about when i was watching him in
Terms of LIKE aaron actually i think has a little
bit more off the dribble pop. Than people think but
he's obviously not the guy you're gonna run a bunch.
Of ACTION through but i think there's value in their
attacking closeouts and like just some of the. HIGHER level

(01:08:22):
stuff I watched a vj euro step today around This
Big from texas tech in, the CONFERENCE tournament where, i
was like, oh my god he took like a left
to right, euro THROUGH traffic where i, was like that
there's a level to like his ability to kind of
like bring an upside to close OUT attacking that i.
Think is real there's like a left shoulder fade that

(01:08:42):
he hit roll spinning off, Of a guy like he's got.
Real upside there but he's just like almost guaranteed to
be a guy who can defend a couple of different
positions and a couple, of different schemes knock down, wide
open threes run his lane and transition and be a
weapon on both ends, of the floor and be a
guy who can. Play make advantages and that, to me
again it manifests that you're changing the sliders a little Bit.

(01:09:05):
Compared to con But it's like, con, can dribble shoot.
PASS and defend, vj, can dribble shot pass and defend.
To VARYING levels and i just think that there's utility
for those kinds of guys on the WING, In the
NBA and SO i just I look at, vj as
like whoever gets him is just gonna get a rock
solid role player for. A, Long TIME.

Speaker 2 (01:09:21):
Yeah like i told you this before, We went live like,
the hardest ranking THE one that i went back and,
Forth ON most LIKE i think i flipped them probably,
a Dozen times if i'm, being completely honest was, this
like three four? Or FIVE ranking and i Ended up
with con like pretty solidly at, Three, FOR me like
i felt pretty good about it. At The end BUT

(01:09:42):
trey and vj were THE two that i struggled with so,
much because man they're. Just VERY different like i can
see The upside for. TREY being higher i think, it
Probably is if, I'm being honest, but you Know like
if trey settles Into Like, the malik, beasley you know
great high, level, Shooter MOLD right and i think that's

(01:10:05):
a real distinct potential outcome for him if he doesn't
get a whole lot stronger and, doesn't you know doesn't
have a way to pressure the basket and the way
that you have to to be like a primary SCORER.
IN the nba I just think vj is probably going
to be a. MORE impactful guy i think that there
are MORE, routes toward vj like being an impactful, player
toward winning than There. Are for TREY even though i

(01:10:28):
like Really buy into trey's outcomes as like a potential
STAR bet because i think he's gonna max out whatever
he can, as, A SCORER right but i wonder about
if he maxes out being able to defend in the
way that he's gonna have to. ON the ball i
wonder if he maxes out the frame in the way he's.
GONNA have to i do just believe though that he's

(01:10:50):
gonna be able to. Max out tray this is like
the scoring ability. In SOME. Way but, VJ you know
i say the Idea Of like gary harris with the
jetpack and like feel some type of. WAY about, It
I mean gary harris is probably like a top forty
to fifty PLAYER in the nba during His, prime in
denver average seventeen to three and three and got consistent

(01:11:11):
all defense. Votes like that he WAS an awesome nba
basketball player for. A long time and if YOU told
me i was getting a more athletic version, Of that guy,
i'd be, like oh wow like this is this is actually,
A real dude this is a real player that helps
you win basketball games at a. REALLY high Level i
think i'm just like a little bit lower on the
on ball up side based off of what WE'VE seen
from dj. To, this point, ALSO you know i will

(01:11:34):
bring up the big thing that, worries, me is yes
you see, the, spectacular finishes right but forty eight point
nine percent on his attempts in the half court, at
the rim which, is really rough and that goes all
the way back like forty five percent as a junior,
in high school fifty two percent as a senior. In
high school has just never been a great finisher at

(01:11:55):
the rim despite. The athletic time.

Speaker 1 (01:11:57):
How much did you, Factor in audacity like just him
like just. Trying crazy shit.

Speaker 2 (01:12:03):
IT does, happen i mean he does, go FOR it
but i mean part of that is like decision making, for,
Me too right, like you know hit. The passes consistently
he got better, HITTING passes consistently i. Will say too
the other thing is the. Pull up shooting he made
thirteen of forty nine pool up attempts This year at.
Baylor in total has never been a great. Pull up,
shooter you know it was nine of thirty five. As

(01:12:26):
A senior, LIKE i, Think, i mean jason did you
take more than thirty five poll up attempts as a
senior in high school when you played? HIGH school basketball i.

Speaker 1 (01:12:36):
Was a terrible high, school Basketball player so i'm the wrong,
Guy to ask, but but yeah that's that's pretty.

Speaker 2 (01:12:42):
Like thirty five for a guy that's going to go
in the top five of the draft in like twenty,
or so games probably that they Have. Tracked on synergy it's,
a low number YOU know? What i, MEAN like.

Speaker 1 (01:12:53):
That i think the on ball UP side with vj.

Speaker 2 (01:12:56):
Is very, theoretical it, IS it, Is I agree but,
i'm A fan like i think he's going to impact
winning for, A long time like if he goes Number,
THREE to philly i kind, Of get it like he's
a guy that will help you, win basketball games.

Speaker 1 (01:13:11):
And he makes some sense Next, TO to, tyree, i
think yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:15):
It makes sense Next to Both tyres. AND jared, McCain
i think.

Speaker 1 (01:13:20):
So what made me So Excited about TREY johnson was
i see this guy that has so much natural scoring
ability in terms of like kind OF it's like i
always look at scoring separate from like any. Individual offensive
skill the big picture, concept of, scoring to me is

(01:13:40):
a combination, of like confidence you've got to believe in, what.
You're doing creativity there's a good amount of like you
need to be like willing to not be so robotic
and rigid if you're going to. Be a scorer and
then the third piece of it is obviously the work,
behind the scenes on the on. The shot making but

(01:14:01):
while all of the footwork and, the the tech the
technical part of it, IS there already i think he's
still just barely scratching the surface of like kind of
learning how to make things a little bit. EASIER for him,
I you know I remember when i Would Watch, like kevin,
durant you know when he was when he was younger

(01:14:23):
and a little. Bit more Aggressive how like kad would
have this like wonderful ability to set his man up
for screens and like even though he knew he wasn't
the fastest player, on the floor he'd be so judicious
about his change of, pace and physicality like leaning on
his man and then exploding out to the perimeter and

(01:14:43):
getting him set up to so that he'd run. Into
THE screen and i was Looking at the xavier game In,
particular FOR trey and i thought they just did a
really good job of denying him the basketball. And staying
attached and, IN that, game, i, thought like, Like for
instance trey's pump fake right now is literally just like
he just, Goes like that like, there's no real like

(01:15:03):
technical effort to sell, the pump FAKE and like i
feel like when he starts to slow down a little bit,
and realize that like when he paint changes his pace
more and sells his fakes a, little bit more like
he he's not getting even as many of like the
pump fake blowby stuff as he's capable of getting at
this point. Because he is teams are selling out on

(01:15:23):
him because he is legitimately an awesome movement three point
shooter and off the dribble, three point shooter and like
that really is the thing that Separates Him. FROM ace
bailey i hate most of THE shots That I saw
ace bailey take because it literally felt like he was
taking a shot based on what looked the coolest rather
than what made sense. In, that moment.

Speaker 4 (01:15:46):
Yeah exactly Exactly it was trey like he would take,
some bad shots but you can kind of see what,
He was thinking like you could see he's, thinking LIKE
like if i get, my separation here this.

Speaker 1 (01:15:56):
Is a THREE and if, i hit this this is a.
Highly efficient shot like like you can kind of Just
see with trey it's kind of like more of, an
organized Chaos whereas with ace right now it's like a.
It's just chaos And so WITH trey what i got
me so Excited About that as i'm, Watching him, today
i'm like, oh my god he's already awesome and he
can still get so much better at kind of. Refining

(01:16:19):
THIS skill and i just still think that the ability
to sprint into jump shots going, left and right and
to be able to hit jump shots off the dribble
going left and right off of different bits of footwork
and separation moves is one of the most valuable THINGS,
in THE nba and I just think trey's already awesome
at it with so much. Room for IMPROVEMENT i'm just
i was just a big fan OF him when i.
Was watching.

Speaker 2 (01:16:38):
Him completely agree I'm A big tray johnson. Fan as
well just a real movement shooter from day ONE in
the nba AND that like i Would Expect that tray
johnson Is First team all rookie next year because he's
going to step in and just be immediately ready to
shoot in score points, from day one like as an.
Off ball player, in, the end like by the way you're,

(01:17:02):
Pointing this out texas like did not do enough running
him off of. Screens this year they ran him off
of screens like, once a game once or. Twice a game.
That was it like he took under two shots per
game off of. Screens this. Year it's insane you have
like the best weapon in college basketball probably last year

(01:17:22):
shooting off of screens and instead, of you know doing
it the way that, it makes sense you just have
him bring the ball off the court every time and
then try and get through his. SHOT that way nba
teams are going to be so much more calculated and
How They. Use trey johnson he is GOING to, AVERAGE i,
THINK i mean i don't KNOW how aggressive i want.
To get here he's definitely. Averaging double FIGURES in the,

(01:17:44):
Nba next year like if you told me he averaged
like sixteen seventeen a game in the right spot next year,
AS a rookie i, wouldn't be surprised just because like
if he.

Speaker 1 (01:17:51):
Was the or do you think.

Speaker 2 (01:17:52):
He, Ends, Up yeah look i've gotten anywhere from. Three,
To seven honestly like he feels like a player that
is really he's impressed teams and. PRE draft workouts i
think they've gotten to know him a little bit better
and they understand him a. Little bit better his Body
language at, Texas THIS year like i think he'd. Even admit,
THIS you know i didn't ask, him about, it but,
Like you know i've kind, Of, understood it, like you

(01:18:13):
know his Body language is texas year like, wasn't always
fantastic let's GO with and i think. THAT that didn't
i think some teams went into the pre draft process
with One Notion about trey johnson and then came away
from like talking to him feeling totally differently about him
in a, really positive way YOU know, What i mean
LIKE just, because, i mean look how much do we

(01:18:37):
want To Shoot on? Rodney terry here but, like it
was it Was bad the texas, scheme was atrocious like
there's there's. Spacing was awful he had no ability to
get to where he wanted to go to that there
was no intentionality in what. They were running it felt
like it was it was. REALLY really rough i Felt
like a. Texas last year, AND you know i think that,

(01:18:58):
smart basketball players when things, aren't going well they can kind,
of FEEL that and i think some are better at masking.
It than others let's GO with and i think that
that was probably A frustration for. TREY last year i
don't know that. For, A fact again i haven't asked,
them about IT but like i do know that there
are A number of nba teams that felt one way

(01:19:18):
about him and then met with him and, they were,
like oh no like this is a, this is different,
This is different, like he's way this is way more
positive than what people thought or what, People think right
Like he's not he's not like a bad body language like,
bad you know going to be an issue. KID at ALL.

Speaker 1 (01:19:36):
I think nba structure is going to be, massive for
him especially, as a playmaker because it kind of felt
like to me a lot of the playmaking issues stemmed
from that. Lack of organization if you put him in
a situation, where, it's like hey we're running this, play
for you, This you know chicago action coming out of
the right, corner or whatever it ends up being create
very simple reads for him and to where, he, understands

(01:19:58):
like hey when they show, on the screen you're dumping
to the big, every single time and, you see this
you do that when you come off the screen and
they pinch in. At the nail this is what you're. Looking,
to do like get into the situations where he kind
of has like these classic like one to two reads
where it's like shoot or this or that. AND that's
it i think that's where he can actually be. An
effective playmaker it Is Not. THE ace bailey i caught

(01:20:18):
the ball and now everyone else disappears and.

Speaker 2 (01:20:20):
It's just me i'll Say this, With trey two like early,
IN the year i thought that he was going to
be like a. Pretty, deficient passer honestly he got so
much better at passing. Throughout the year it, was a
huge huge growth For him AT texas where i think
that he did start to figure out the reads that are,
really high level where like there are a lot of
moments where he's coming off of an action like exactly,

(01:20:42):
like you're saying like A corner. Of chicago action HE'S
taking a dho driving into the lane and he'll jump
past and like hit the dump off like immediately and
just like understand what. THE read is i was really
worried early in the year that it was like a.
Cam thomasse vibe it's. Nowhere near that like he has
so much more like unselfishness and like understanding to his
GAME than what i think that would. That would indicate.

Speaker 1 (01:21:07):
You mentioned in your before this is the last piece
and then we'll get to ace and then we'll get. Out
of here you mentioned in your draft guide him needing,
to GET stronger and i AGREE that's where i kind
of view him as being like a player that slows down,
a little bit puts on, some muscle mass becomes a
little bit more deliberate with the way he sets himself,
up for action a little bit more deliberate. With HIS
fakes but i feel pretty confident that he's going to

(01:21:29):
be able to get the ball OFF at. The nba level,
and YOU know when i was watching the shots, He's taken,
today i'm like these are shots that are going to
work at. The next level these are things that he's
going to be able to make and and everything we're
hearing about his work ethic is is going to just
continue to hammer that home.

Speaker 2 (01:21:44):
SO a space i am so excited for This conversation
because i'm always really excited to hear from People Who
watch ace bailey for the first time, and are like
what the? FUCK is this.

Speaker 1 (01:21:58):
I let me just use. One simple example there is
a proven way for any player with a size advantage
to be able to get a decent jump shot off
out of the post on. The left block if you're a,
right handed player you hit the drop step and right after,
you make contact you spin hard over, that right shoulder

(01:22:19):
and you turn around and you lift off of you plant,
that left foot and you lift off, of both legs
and you're almost certainly gonna have the separation you need
and it's up off. Of two. Feet it's balanced the
right shoulder fade away is one of the most common
shots that you'll see a big FORWARD in the nba
take as. A switch beater i saw a half dozen
today where he somehow turned that, into some wild fucking

(01:22:43):
one legged fade away where he like spun over his
right shoulder and then took a step back into the one,
legged Fade away and i'm, just like why like why are?
YOU doing that i. Don't understand yet.

Speaker 2 (01:22:54):
It's like also kind of cool that he has the
body control to be able to like do that and
like string, that together, too like sir you're you're like a,
little bit impressed but, then, you're like no. Don't, do that.

Speaker 1 (01:23:04):
Yeah it's it's it's a jarring experience because. It's legitimately
fun it's fun to watch and like and, that's REALLY where,
like i see the. Upside is undeniable IT'S like everything
i though you did a wonderful job as per usual
breaking it down in. Your draft guide he's got, these
great tools but then he it doesn't like function like
he's a great athlete with great tools because of the

(01:23:25):
fact that he's just kind of like out of his
athletic stance most of the time and he's just like
In there it and then there's a legitimate like black
hole type of offensive feel for him where it's like
the ball ends up in his hands and it's, like
all right you know where something's, going up here and
there's just a LITTLE bit like i view him as
a guy that needs an enormous, amount of refining but

(01:23:48):
that the upside, is really there and so like he
needs to go somewhere where he can be bad for
a long time and IT but like i think that's
where he. NEEDS to go i think if he, GOES
anywhere else i think it could, go really. POORLY really
fast i want. To be clear This Is not emmy
baits where it's like he's skin and bones and barely

(01:24:08):
six s eight and like just, doesn't have faces just doesn't.
Have the athleticism ace is much more physically prominent, At
the position so there is. Real UPSIDE there but i
think he needs a reworking of several different kind of
things in the way that he. Approaches THE game and
i just view him as like a. Very, BIG project yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:24:28):
I completely agree but the project is like the ceiling's
very high. If it, works, the ceiling yeah very high.
If it, works so yeah, first and foremost like just
plays very upright is. What worries me does not play,
with much bend and he doesn't access the. Athleticism he
has like you'll see him out in transition and you'll
rise and like throw down like all these crazy dunks

(01:24:48):
but he doesn't play through contact well because he's getting
out leveraged by everybody on the court because he doesn't
play with a Lot of bend right doesn't play with
a lot of physical force now like very much, a
finesse player despite the fact that he has like, powerful
explosive athleticism like you know, in his legs YOU know,

(01:25:09):
What i mean like he has the ability to, really
rise up but like it doesn't play out that way
in the half court because he loses the leverage game
just about. Every SINGLE time like i use the idea
of pad, level quote unquote like talking about pad, level,
and football right pad level matters. In basketball too being
able to outleverage. Guys really matters he doesn't. REALLY do
that i mean the shot selections simultaneously amazing because you

(01:25:34):
just wonder how he came to that decision and also
like maddening. AND just insane i don't really understand it,
in any way. Shape or. FORM the, Mechanic i mean
i'm fascinated to hear what you think of, The SHOT
mechanics like i think the shot mechanics.

Speaker 1 (01:25:50):
Is that's super every jumper looks different and like some
of them are some of. Them are catapulty some of
them he shooting up. Into the air sometimes the release is,
quick and compact sometimes it's drawn out like the the
there is and this is one of the Downsides of
like so let me Let Me use trey johnson as, An,
example HERE sam because i think this is a really

(01:26:11):
fascinating basketball concept for young players. To work on tough
shot making doesn't mean you're, you're taking really really. Difficult
jump shots it almost always means you're doing something really
difficult before, the jump shot and then you're taking your.
Normal jump shot there might be, a slight fade, a

(01:26:33):
slight drift but, more or less the energy transfer and
the rise and fire should pretty closely mimic what you
do in a catch. And shoot situation AND that's what
I get When. I'm watching trey i'm watching a player
who utilizes footwork and dribble combinations to get separations so
that He Can take trey johnson's jump shot. Every single

(01:26:54):
time whereas with ace it almost feels like the almost
feels like everything up to the tip of the release
is different on a possession, by POSSESSION basis and i
think that. LEADS to streakiness i think that having a
consistent form that you lean on leads, to more consistency
whereas like for the, FOR the record i think this

(01:27:15):
is a big Part of why lebron has had so
many changes in terms of like his consistency as a
jump shooter in his career and why he's. Been so
streaky lebron tweaks his release. Every damn year, within the
year sometimes two. Or three, times, it's, like oh oh,
it's twenty Fifteen. We're, watching lebron wait he's not taking a.
Jump shot anymore he's taking. A set shot like? What's

(01:27:35):
this about like, you're just like but, that's The. Thing
and lebron lebron paid the price for that by, Being
you know lebron's a better jump shooter than he, gets
credit for but he was somewhat inconsistent and streaky is
a jump shooter in his career because he fucked with
his form. All THE time and i think there's a
little Bit, Of like ace ace needs to build his
game around a jump shot and then the separation that,

(01:27:58):
leads to it rather than it almost feel like, each
jump shot each move has its, own jump shot if.

Speaker 2 (01:28:03):
THAT makes sense i completely agree with exactly what. You're
saying here but the other, piece, of this though is
that this all feeds into the idea for me That
nothing that ace does is easy on. The Basketball Court
like jason tatum was a guy that got like kind
of pigeonholed with us a Little, bit at duke he
would still find like easy shots at the rim from, time,

(01:28:24):
To time right and part Of What's made jason tatum
so SPECTACULAR in the nba is that he finds easy
shots at the rim from. Time to time he will
take guys into the post and use his footwork to
be able to like just beat guys to spots and
then be able to get like a lay up at
the rim on a drop. Step, Or, something right like
he is really good at utilizing the mismatch nightmare idea
of being. A Mismatch threat ace bailey does, not do

(01:28:46):
that and that's. My main worry so doesn't really get
to the rim, all that often takes under two shots
at the, rim, per game right because he's very high
waisted and the handle is, not very good and he's
the handle is very high because he's. So HIGH waisted
like i remember talking to a team That was playing
rutgers early, in the year, they, were like yeah like

(01:29:06):
what would you do To Slow. Down ace bailey, I'D
be like i would just send a dig every single time.
THAT he drives i would send nail help every single time.
That he DRIVES, and either a you will force a
turnover because you will get into his handle and it'll,
be A problem or b you will force a Mid
Range jumper and i'm good with that at the end
of The Day. From ace bailey and he doesn't process

(01:29:27):
it quickly enough to be able to make the same
side kickout off of like the, same, Side, help right
like just send, It every time. It'll be fine and
you look at the percentages, At, the rim like what
Do You think ace bailey shot on? Layups, THIS year JASON.

Speaker 1 (01:29:43):
I THINK i think i, saw it today forty forty.

Speaker 2 (01:29:46):
Two on layups he's six seven with a seven foot
wingspan and, is like athletic like he. Is real athleticism
that's insane that he. Shot that low he Shot Like with,
jeremiah fears shot who's like one of the worst finishers in, this,
Draft class right like it's. Really really wild and then
like all of this is before we get, to, the,

(01:30:07):
defense where man there are games. Where HE'S unbelievable LIKE
i think i thought he was so Good in the alabama,
Game ON defense like i thought he was amazing early.
IN the season i don't know if he's realized that
there were a crazy number of scouts in the, building
or whatever. Because there were but like. He was awesome he,

(01:30:28):
was super switchable, he was aggressive he was. Engaged in
help like he had. LIKE three blocks i think he
had like a, Seal or two like he was really
really good. In that game and then like in the
middle of, big ten play, it, Was like yeah i'm
just not. Gonnattack, This guy yeah i'm not gonna. Make
this rotation maybe he's just like. Not seeing. It you
know teams really started, to hammer him, realizing that okay

(01:30:49):
he's if you run like an, action at him either
he's just not gonna like take the time to, think
through it or like not gonna be focused enough to
be able to, think through it or he's, just not,
gonna you know make the right read and you're. Gonna
BE fine so i worry about that piece of it
for him, TO on, defense i mean look like all
of these things is like the ceiling is that he

(01:31:10):
can be the second best player in, This draft class
like if it, all goes right his ability to get
to special jump shots off of step backs and pull
ups and, things like that it's a, Genuinely elite skill
like the creation of those jumpers is an incredible gift, that,
He has right but there it's just such a house of, cards, To,

(01:31:34):
me MAN like like i ease AT six if i
was on, The TEAM side like i would not BE
even if i had like, SEVEN or eight i probably
wouldn't be like banging the table, For, ace honestly like
it's just not my kind of player at the end.
Of THE day and i understand that he has. REAL
star upside, i understand that like all of these. Things

(01:31:55):
can improve i'll, say this too like you're probably not
in the, weeds on this but like the way he's
handled his pre draft process has, been completely bonkers and,
like that shit the kid is like a. Really nice
kid He's like everything, I've been told like the intel
on that side is like. Really nice kid teammates, Really
like him. Like good kid don't take the pre draft

(01:32:18):
process that his agents and representation are kind of sorting
through right now and applying it to the KID is
what i would tell people like he's, he's, not that
like he's not. A bad kid it's just that there's
like a lot to, work THROUGH here and i do
wonder if, he's you know getting the bad getting really

(01:32:39):
bad advice, On some things like there's A lot of
i have a lot of worries kind of. Across, THE board.

Speaker 1 (01:32:47):
Yeah i was gonna say something similar, in terms OF
like if i was, RUNNING a team i just am
not sure that the gamble is the kind Of thing
that i'm trying. To build around, in that sense there's
you'd have to be in a specific time. Type of
situation you'd have to be in a position as a
franchise where there's quite literally no hope where, you, feel
like oh we are going to be bad for the

(01:33:08):
next several years and there's NO like if i look
At this and I'm, Looking at, Philly, i'm like okay
well they're trying TO. Rebuild around embiid they're obviously not
going to jump for. Something like that charlotte like finally
got a little exciting and interesting towards you know at various,
points this, year like, Uh you know utah kind of
already has a guy of that like kind of shot

(01:33:30):
chucking ilk in house. Already right now washington literally just
had their most interesting end of the season in the
last couple of years with some. Interesting young players you
don't want to. Mess with that there's not really a
team that screams off the surface that makes a ton
of sense if you. HAD to guess i Mean my
as i'm looking at, THE lottery here i, look, at

(01:33:51):
like like Is it a is It like a brooklyn
who has? NOWHERE to, go i.

Speaker 2 (01:33:56):
Mean like simply just has a lot of like bots,
Up for grabs like they have like five guys, on
the roster YOU know, What i mean and they have
all the CAP space like I Would. UNDERSTAND brooklyn washington
i think you can easily make a. Case for it
Washington is where i'm. MOCKED right now i think that
it makes a lot of sense for them to just
at least try it and see what. It looks like

(01:34:17):
they do need like a. WING shot creator I LOVE
ballall Like i think blakoulabali is gonna be like a
real winning basketball player for a long time because of
how good he, is ON defense and i think the
shot will continue. To come along, BUT you know i
don't see ballall as like a shot creator. Long term
either and if you told me that your wing duo
long Term Can be ace, bailey and blah and then

(01:34:39):
You Have, like keishawn george and then you in the
backcourt You have BUB. CARRINGTON. And a j johnson, and
you know taking flyers on all. Of these guys that
seems pretty. Interesting to me that feels like the right.

Speaker 1 (01:34:51):
His Length next to alex makes makes, Some sense too
and just in terms of overall, wings.

Speaker 2 (01:34:56):
Totally right, By, the way like while, We're Talking here
daniel gafford is signing, a three year sixty million dollar Contract.
Extension with dallas?

Speaker 3 (01:35:05):
What?

Speaker 1 (01:35:09):
Why why what like does that come with a restriction
on Their ability to are They?

Speaker 2 (01:35:14):
Gonna trade derek was, My, immediate reaction like are they
gonna like look to move lively for like A star
like wang or something like are you gonna try and
move Lively For like austin reeves or? Something, like, that like.

Speaker 1 (01:35:27):
Yeah you'd have to move lively for this to, make,
any Sense right because gafford won't be tradable until after
THE season or i guess he'll be trade. About the
deadline he'll be tradeable.

Speaker 2 (01:35:36):
With, The deadline yeah but like that's. An interesting one
it's NOT one that, I, Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:35:42):
So okay well they're certainly gonna take him, into camp,
now so okay so they're Going to take gafford into.
Camp for sure Cooper ad probably lively right unless they move.

Speaker 2 (01:35:54):
Him, this summer Again the only lively deal that makes
sense to me is If you're Doing, lively for REEVES
because like i can see a case for, that both ways, Where,
it's like okay Let's go, get luca's, big You know,
Rim runner big let's go, get you Know, if you're
dallas let's go get a guy who can play on
the ball this year and then shifts playing off The
ball with kyrie next year and can like help. Share

(01:36:15):
those duties both of those guys are really good at
playing off, the ball, again you know next two. Star
level creators that's. Been my favorite like fake trade on
the market now for A while Is. Lively FOR reeves but.

Speaker 1 (01:36:30):
I want to expand that trade to somehow include. A
second starter i've been having my eye on. That as
well on my one hang Up with TRADING austin is
i don't Want to Trade austin unless i'm bringing back
a Ball handler because lebron will retire or two, high
level starters meaning Like if it's LIVELY, and like pj

(01:36:53):
doesn't make a ton of Sense. For the lakers but
if they could somehow work out some sort of deal
where they get another starting caliber two or three an
athlete at the two or three That plays, at AUSTIN'S
position because i just don't think it makes a bunch
of sense for them To bring in lively and then
just have a glaring hole at.

Speaker 2 (01:37:07):
The, the funniest answer, it's Obvious Here send Max, Christie,
Back brownie james I've.

Speaker 1 (01:37:13):
Sen, oh max yeah see This is. What, i'm saying Yeah,
give me Max give Me max and derek if, we're talking, Now, We're,
talking okay yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:37:20):
Look this is all this, Is all fake like we're,
all just, like you. Know guessing, HERE but yeah I
mean the gafford, three to sixty that's a. That's a, deal,
that's something man That's not that's i'll.

Speaker 1 (01:37:32):
Say this though starting CENTER in the nba makes twenty.
Million these days like that's just like it's it's just
it's like if you're if you're in the middle, of
the pack like if you're between center number eleven and TWENTY,
in the nba you're.

Speaker 2 (01:37:43):
Making twenty five but isn't the whole idea here That,
if you're dallas Like You have derek lively who's making
like six million for the, next two years and that
that's like your ability to stay cheap for the. Next,
two years.

Speaker 1 (01:37:57):
Yeah how do you think they managed to leverage go into? Making?

Speaker 2 (01:38:00):
THAT deal, now i mean like Anybody's guests, On, Nico's
SIDE uh. LIKE i don't i don't have a great sense.
OF that, necessarily i mean he Is, repped by clutch
so like there could be some like discussion THERE with
like ad and. STUFF like, that, i mean, look like
again It's not that gaffer isn't. WORTH this deal i

(01:38:22):
think he is, worth this deal if, to, BE honest
like i think he's probably right around a twenty million dollars.
A year player it's just That that's a it doesn't
make a whole lot of sense to me roster wise
when You Already have derek Lively and like ad is
gonna have to close some games, at, The FIVE right

(01:38:45):
like i get that they don't want to play a
d full time. At the five that makes, SENSE to,
Me i guess but like he's gonna have to close
some games at the five at, The very least so,
YOU'RE talking probably, i don't know eight to ten minutes
a game of a d at the. Five at least
and then If you're signing gaffer do a twenty million dollar,
a year deal you're expecting to play twenty four, minutes

(01:39:05):
a game probably twenty five, Minutes a game so that
leaves ten to fifteen minutes A Game. For derek lively, and,
it's like well he's, better than That and Neither gaffer
nor lively can, play the four so what. Are we doing.

Speaker 1 (01:39:21):
Derek is better at defending on switches by. A considerable
margin i actually think he's a little better. Rimp PROTECTOR
too But i think. Daniel's fine there the, main, Thing
is like i'm With. YOU like daniel's i had to
reconfigure my entire approach around the starting center market last
summer When we saw hartenstein, Get over thirty gober, got

(01:39:42):
Over thirty or hartenstein was, just under Thirty but like
claxton ended up getting like twenty seven or, something like
THAT and then, i, was, like oh like if you're
a starting CENTER, in the nba you're getting, over twenty
million like this is. How this works BUT it's, like
i thought the whole, point of them in their predicament
Is don't you you're supposed to be the one that
doesn't Have to pay. Daniel like that that's because, of
your predicament because of the. SITUATION you're in i do

(01:40:02):
Wonder if because lively was banged up a little, bit last,
year And uh because lively was a, little banged up
and because he didn't play super well when he was
available to, end Last year maybe nico's off of his
scent or. Something like that But if if nico's dumb
Enough to send derek Over, to the lakers we would
be happy. TO take him i.

Speaker 2 (01:40:19):
CAN tell, you, i mean look you Better believe that
nico right now is probably fielding a number Of Calls,
about derek LIVELY wondering from Nba, teams like hey what's?
Going on here like what? Are we? Doing, what's happening
yeah let's let's all the head, up, over that right
like like popping up, over, the, fence, Like, hey hey derek,
you out there like? What's going on. ABSOLUTELY call, it

(01:40:42):
i mean like the other funny thing, about that is,
BY the way I believe that derek is Also. REPPED
by clutch.

Speaker 1 (01:40:50):
I, think You're right so i'm not one.

Speaker 2 (01:40:53):
Hundred, PERCENT sure yeah I believe that derek is Also,
repped by clutch, which, Means That like i'm i'm interested
to know going on maybe like maybe this is like
killing two birds. With one stone this. Is total speculation do.
Not aggregate this for The, love OF god when, i
Say this and i'm like totally just like saying things and,
CONNECTING dots here. I do not i have not talked to. Anybody,

(01:41:16):
about this again do. NOT aggregate this i say. This.
MULTIPLE times uh i wonder if they're looking, At, it
like okay we can kill two birds with, one stone
Here let's, get gafford paid and then Maybe we get
derek To play with lebron or like play with like another.

Speaker 1 (01:41:31):
Guy, like That oh like clutch is playing both. SIDES
of it i see. What, you're, Saying yeah Yeah i'll
Be i'll be. I'll be. Curious i'm hoping i'm hoping
we get a. VERY fascinating. Week i, hope my goal
and given what this playoff run, has been like is
like for all the shit to hit the fan in
the next like ten days and then and then for
it to just go radio silence the rest. Of the
summer That's that's what. I'm Hoping, for, but sam dude

(01:41:52):
you've been way generous. With, your time man we're up
over one hundred an hour. And forty minutes WE got to.
Nba final stuff we, talked picture draft we talked about the,
top six Picks We talked. Daniel gafford's extension so much.
Good stuff today shout out your work before we get.
Out of here let everybody know where they can find
your guide. AND everything else i will have the link to. It,
underneath it.

Speaker 2 (01:42:11):
Yeah Go to the athletic keep me, employed over, there really,
really you know great place TO work. That i enjoy
so go subscribe to that beautiful website Over At The
new york times and you Will Get. The draft guide
it's almost, two hundred words one hundred and sixty thousand
words of. BREAKDOWNS on prospects i really focused on the
top guys like in depth in a big. Way this

(01:42:34):
year so you'll get like really heavy breakdowns on all
of their tendencies and everything that they really like to do.
As basketball players Go To the, game theory podcast where
we're at like fifty thousand subscribers. Over on YouTube now
we're just growing and doing so. Well over there we
appreciate you guys immensely for coming over there and rocking with. The,

(01:42:54):
show there yeah IT'S about, all i got so go to the.
Those two places.

Speaker 1 (01:43:02):
It was good, to. See you buddy you have been
very kind to us over the course of the last
MONTH With some nba finals COVERAGE and. THIS i was
i was proud of us because several of the things
we discussed in Our how Does Indie beat? Oklahoma city
thing kind of the fruition that, we TALKED through which i.
Thought was fascinating but it was good, to. See you
buddy we'll chat soon. ON the phone i have some news.

(01:43:22):
For you too I'm, moving. To denver dude we got
all sorts of shit. To talk about we gotta find
some we gotta find some. Time to talk but it
was it was good to see you and all. Of
the listeners thank you guys so much for. Supporting the
show we will Be Back On wednesday night live during
the first ROUND Of. THE nba draft i will see.
You guys then? What's so, GUYS as always i appreciate
you for listening To and. Supporting oops tonight they would
actually be really helpful for us if you guys would

(01:43:44):
take a second and leave a rating. And a, REVIEW
as always i appreciate you, guys supporting us but if
you could take a minute, To do that i'd. Really
appreciate it

Speaker 2 (01:43:54):
The volume

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Hoops Tonight - 2025 NBA Draft Preview: Cooper Flagg all-time rank, the Ace Bailey debate, 3rd pick inflection point

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Hoops Tonight - 2025 NBA Draft Preview: Cooper Flagg all-time rank, the Ace Bailey debate, 3rd pick inflection point