February 8, 2023 • 39 mins
Clayton and Greg sit down with Natalie Papillion from the Last Prisoner Project and talk about how thousands of people are still unjustly incarcerated for the simple crime of marijuana possession—a startling fact given that many states have since legalized the plant. Even more shocking is the fact that many of the people who wrote or enforced America’s drug laws are now making millions of dollars in the cannabis industry while thousands rot in jail serving lengthy prison terms for cannabis possession. Among them is Edwin Rubis, who is serving a 35-year prison term in a federal prison in Talladega, GA for conspiracy to distribute 2200 pounds of marijuana even though no drugs or money were ever found by police. Edwin’s release date is not until 2032.
To learn more and get involved, visit:
https://www.lastprisonerproject.org
https://www.lastprisonerproject.org/fathers-day-in-the-slammer
Edwin Rubis: edwinrubis@aol.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Okay, Greg, check this out. I learned something. I learned
a lot working with you, but this one kind of
took me back. Did you know that the cops don't
have to find any drugs on you for you to
be convicted and in prison for a drug crime? Then
what are you talking about? This call is from a
federal prison. You will not be charged for this call.
We can say pretty confidently that at any point in time,
(00:24):
they're over forty thousand people incarcerated for cannabis in this country.
The door, I mean, we have clients who are serving
life without the possibility of roles for selling twenty dollars
worth of week. That's correct. This call will be recorded
and subject to monitoring at any time. You may begin
speaking now. The Golf ass Force, you came to my
(00:47):
house and read in my house, and I taught me
I was being charged with conspiracy to distribute are one
of the department. They didn't find any guns, they didn't
find any drugs, they didn't find any money, but feelbout
ristany and they told me that I would be charged
for conspiracy to distribute twenty two hundred pounds tomorrow one
with a maximum census of life and this is solely
(01:09):
based on somebody else, just what they saying. Yeah, and
they can do that without any drugs on the table
on the climbing sound. Hey, this is Clayton English. This
is Greg Glad and this is the war on drug Greg?
(01:30):
What's going on? How much clay now are you doing?
I'm good man. We got a little bit of a
special episode today, right, a little bit longer than the others.
U two interviews Natalie Pappion with the Last Prisoner Project
and uh Edwin Rubis who's incarcerated right now where it
telldega okay Teldegan Alabama at a federal penitentiary right out there. Yeah,
(01:54):
and I can't wait for people to hear it because
it's comment was it was a riot. It made me
feel a lot of different feelings, anger, upset, and you know,
he really kind of just put you in his shoes.
And I don't think we think about it. This is
(02:15):
the first interview that we've had where we talked to
somebody that currently yeah, in prison and living with it. Yeah,
and you know a lot of the things that you
told me as we've started this podcast, I just saw
first hand in this interview, right, how we criminalize addiction. Yea,
how people get wrapped up in this, How you get
(02:35):
the trial, going to trial, exercising your constitutional rights, going
to trial, How that damages you, the crazy sentences, the
problems in prison, how you get back. I mean it
really like start to finish, like shows every little problem
that you have in the system. And it's it's so
much bigger than anything you could imagine. Like once you
(02:58):
once I found out that the people that really need
to be locked up can give up lesser people and
get less time. That's feels like the complete opposite of
what our legal system is designed to do. Right, But
and Actuality is perfectly designed to do just that exactly
because again it's not about the drugs, right Yeah. And
(03:21):
and Edwin's case got on our radar from you know,
the Last Prisoner Project when we were talking to them
and Natalie papillon Um who works over there, and you know,
it's an organization that does, you know, trying to help
individuals that are currently incarcerated from arijuana fences to be
able to get released and you know successful inner society.
You see what you see, what she's fighting for isn't
(03:43):
just something on paper or just this it's real people
getting affected by these things. Yeah, and the people that's designed,
like the cartel is not scared. Are the people in
charge or not scared? I actually, you know they enjoy this,
They like it. Yeah, because there needs to be a scalp, right, Yeah,
(04:03):
like if you got you got these numbers pinted this
person who didn't have a fraction of what we had
to do with it, and they get to take the Brennan,
we get to keep riberating perfect. Everybody wins as far
as the corrupt bullish it. Yeah. No one loves mandatory
minimums and conspiracy charges more than El Chopo and all
(04:27):
these guys. I mean, who who loves prohibition more than
alcol Yeah? So I'm really excited for you all to
listen to this. We have an amazing conversation with Natalie,
and then we speak with Edwin and m Yeah. Let's
I think bready get into it. Yeah. Absolutely, Natalie. How
(04:49):
are you doing today? I'm doing great. I'm excited about this.
Thanks for having me. Man, We're so excited to have
you here doing the lord's work. Yeah, you're doing what
needs to be done. I mean, I think there's so
many people that have been thrown away in the system
for such a small infraction, and infraction that in most
(05:10):
places as legal are close to legal. Now, so can
you start us off with just the scale of the
problem and the injustice when it comes to marijuana arrest
and who would affect Yeah, I think let's start from
this misconception that now that many states have either liberalized
their cannabis laws or outright legalized, they don't use cannabis,
(05:32):
No one's being arrested, no one's being incarcerated for possession
or distribution, and everyone who was formally incarcerated has been
sort of let free the prison gates have opened. That
is definitely not true. But we have done a lot
of internal research at Last Prisoner Project and we can
say with you know, pretty confidently that at any point
(05:52):
in time, they're over forty thousand people incarcerated for cannabis
in this country, which is you know, a ton of people,
especially when you consider the fact that twenty states have
legalized for adult use, and you know, doesn't more have
decriminalize the plan. So we're seeing an injustice and a
(06:14):
hypocrisy where many people are minting millions of dollars off
of selling cannabis in their states. You know, they're buying
pot stocks while others are being sentenced to not just
you know, a few days, weeks, months in prison for
even something as simple as marijuana possession. I mean, we
have clients who are serving life without the possibility of
(06:37):
parole for selling twenty dollars worth of weed. That's crazy.
Whenever I tell people, they assume I'm making things up
or being hyperbolic, but I was. Unfortunately, it's true. And
how does that happen? You know? This one man, I'm
thinking about mister Kevin Allen. He was sentenced to life
without the possibility of parole because he was considered under
(06:58):
Louisiana state law habitual Now that seems really scary and okay,
habitual offender like terrorizing our communities whatnot? He had, you know,
for previous arrest and they were all for drug possession,
all non violent. So we have these incredibly draconian laws
on the books. We have judges and energy social system
(07:18):
that doesn't isn't empowered to look at the full facts
of the case. You know, they have to look at
mandatory minimums, they have to look at habitual offender laws,
and that leaves you in a situation where we have
people serving life for twenty dollars with a week. Yeah,
it's crazy, and like marijuana kind of just feels like
it gets like thrown onto the rug. But it is
one of the biggest drivers of not only just you know,
(07:40):
criminal justice contacts through arrest, but also incarceration. Yeah, you
touched on a really great point. So throughout sort of
the recent history in the US, marijuana law enforcement has
ebbed and flows, but the nineteen nineties and you know,
at the very beginning of the nineties, we start to
see a huge ramping up of marijuana related arrests. So
you know, illustrate that in nineteen ninety one there were
(08:02):
eighty eight thousand marijuana arrests across the country. In two
thousand two, we're seeing seven hundred thirty thousand marijuana arrest
So why did that happen? One is sort of the
cratering of crime rates post the nineteen eighties. And you
know what police have to do with those bloated budgets
(08:23):
and how they have to utilize them, and how they're
incentivized to utilize them, and they do that by doing
the easiest thing they can do is start picking people
up on the street for weed. Right. We also have
this mythology start in the nineteen nineties around the youthful
sort of marijuana menace. Right, So we have this idea
that predominantly young black men may have either been in
(08:45):
car already, are already in cars rated for crack, or
you know, are not using crack or distributing crack as
much as they might have been in the nineteen eighties,
and they're instead turning to marijuana. Is not just contained
to the inner cities, they're sort of predilection and for
marijuana use is actually spreading into the suburbs. And I'm
going to be totally blunt, no pun intended, you know,
(09:07):
infecting white suburban youth. And this is a crisis, and
we need to protect the children. And in order to
protect the children, we need to basically stop stop frisk
and throw every young black man who might have a
dime bag on them into prison. Yeah. So you touch
on something, and it's something that I've worked with quite
a bit. You know, as states have attempted to either
decriminalize or legalize marijuana, you know, you sometimes get sometimes
(09:31):
almost every time, push back from law enforcement. And what
I've noticed is like it's not necessarily the prohibition of
the drug itself. It's what comes around with it and
some of the collateral issues. So it's like, well, now
we're going to lose this thing that we have in
our back pocket if we smell marijuana? Are you or
we can do a stop and frisk on you and
(09:52):
have a dime bag if it's legal those go away.
Can you kind of touch on like some of the
other collateral aspects of like what no on legalization looks
like in those states and how that allows for government
control over individuals through that and what they're losing from
a legalization standpoint the government. So you mentioned one thing
about the odor of marijuana, So that's obviously been the case,
(10:15):
that's been the basis for so many pretextual stops across
the country. When it becomes legalized, and if it's legalized
in the right way, police use that sort of investigative tool.
I don't have a lot of empathy for law enforcement
departments who say they basically need to skirt the Constitution
in order to do their job. If I'm being totally candid,
(10:35):
I think if you can't do your job and protect
public safety without stopping a bunch of people for smoking weed,
then you're probably in the wrong line of work, and
oftentimes this stuff can turn deadly. I don't know if
you remember the story of Philando Castile, but the cop
who sort of approached him said he smelled marijuana, and
(10:56):
he said that smell made him fear for his life. Now,
this is a cop, you know, a young cop in Minnesota.
That doesn't really hold water for me. But you know,
you can say that because it's illegal, and you know,
there have been so many court cases that say it's
the basis for protectural stops and people can can get
away with approaching people and killing people because of that
(11:18):
marijuana impetus. That's just so crazy. Like if you can
smell like cocaine, then you are a kingpin, you are boss,
you are a scarface. But weed is one of the
only things, Like yeah, just a small amount, and like
you said, people have lost their life. Like for him
to say he was fearful because of the smell of marijuana,
it goes back to kind of the racial tones that
(11:40):
it has. You're fearful because they've associated marijuana with black
people to make you fearful. Yeah, it's it's crazy. When
you see the numbers as they just kind of stay
in these horrible hundreds of thousands of people still getting
arrested for marijuana offense's mainly possession only, and still going
on in twenty twenty when we're twenty twenty two now,
(12:01):
And so I know in some states they'll legalize it,
but they don't make provisions to like make for retroactive
sentencing for people that are in behind bars, or if
you have a criminal record for something that's legal now,
to like seal that or expongic. So, can you talk
about some of the complications that we see within the
criminal justice system now as we move to legal that
are still hindering people that were caught up in it
(12:23):
prior to yes, So oftentimes activists or policymakers will put
forth a legalization proposal, they'll spend a lot of time
thinking about tax rates, a lot of time thinking about
like what agency should be sort of the regulatory body
governing cannabis operations, and they rarely ever think about, Okay,
what happens to the people who either still incarcerated or
(12:46):
the people who were previous incarcerated and have this sort
of black mark on their records, And so consumers, the
general public think, Okay, it's legal, now, everyone goes free.
Whereas if you don't actually write that explicitly and do
it in a smart way into the law, people are
still remaining in prison. So they are in prison while
they are reading magazines that talk about the latest pot billionaire. Right.
(13:09):
Can you imagine what that would feel like? Um? That's
you know. I we have constituents who say, I was
serving a ten year sentence and I turned on the
TV while I was in jail, and I saw, you know,
a conversation on the local news station about like pop
moms and these like women, um making millions of dollars
selling selling weed to like rich Beverly Hills moms. Um.
(13:31):
So there are a lot of issues of their criminal
legal system. I think this is the most one of
the most obvious examples of just the hypocrisy UM and
sort of the two systems of justice. According to like,
if you're you're white, wealthy and well connected versus if
you're you know, black or brown and low income, you're
treated quite differently in a very literal sense with the
with the two systems of justice. A lot of times,
(13:53):
for a lot of people that I'm around, sometimes it
just feels hopeless, Like what can be done? Like I
like to be a solution based person. What needs to
be done? What can be done at a state and
federal level. What's some things that people should be looking towards,
a pushing for in their community to at least try
(14:17):
to balance this out. No, I want to be solution
oriented as well. I think, you know, this is sort
of table stakes. We need to have federal decriminalization and
ideally federal legalization both to sort of stop the criminalization
of cannabis that's happening on the federal level. Now we're
not seeing huge numbers of people sentenced for marijuana on
(14:38):
the federal level, but you know, a thousand a year,
So we need to stop that obviously, and that's something
we can do just by a simple Act of Congress.
But also because federal decriminalization will set a tone, you know,
for other states who have yet to decriminalize or legalize.
It will help sort of read, it will help policy
(14:59):
make rethink how they're attributing and how they're distributing those
you know, burn grants, those federal funds, so we can
actually fund police to do work that makes our community
safer as opposed to racking up marijuana arrest. Federal legalization
decrimination is also really important because it will lessen a
lot of those taxes, a lot of those expenses and
(15:22):
capital expenditures happening for state regulated businesses so they can
and that's going to incentivize people to move from the
black or gray market into the regulated market and all
of the good things that come along without you know,
that's an increase of public health, public safety. That's something
that's really really important. We don't have like move like
(15:42):
people don't make moonshine anymore. Like we don't have a
we don't have bootleggers. And I think that's a really
great thing. But I don't know if you've been a
Tennessee you know, I will say my family is from
Tennessee and they have been known to throw a bat,
but they have like we now have like craft moonshiners. Right,
the vast majority of alcohol sales are happening in a
(16:03):
way where you can where you can sort of track them,
where you can make sure that underage folks aren't getting,
you know, their hands on anything shouldn't be, where you
can make sure that things are tested and regulated, and
so for and so on. Just it's a win for
everything for everyone, and that only really happens when there's
federal legalization. So you know, it's really hard to get
(16:25):
this Congress to agree upon anything, but I will say
the vast majority of Americans, Republicans, independence, Democrats, support federal
legalization and they support allowing the states to do what
they wish when it comes to regulating cannabis commerce within
their boundaries. And so we need to put pressure on
Congress to sort of heed you be responsive to the
people you seek to represent or you're claiming to represent,
(16:49):
and do this. And then in states that have yet
to legalize, make sure that you're pressuring your state lawmakers
to do that right and not only legalize, but do
it in a smart way. Think about the long term
implications of the policy, and make sure you're prioritizing those
criminal justice reforms. And you know, I focus a lot
on the criminal justice aspects of this issue, but they're
(17:09):
also real like medical and public health implications to this. Right. So,
because cannabis is a Schedule one drug, which is a
whole other story. It's a whole it's a wild story.
No one can do any scientists can't do any research,
right or less they be arrested. So we don't actually
know as much as we should know about this substance
(17:30):
that half of American adults will consume in their lifetime. Right,
And that's, you know, in a word, a little problematic.
You know, some Israel is doing a lot of interesting research,
there's some European countries who are doing interesting research. But
there's obviously some medical efficacy to cannabis consumption, but we're
not able to maximize that. Or because we're the schedule
(17:52):
one designation means no one can do research. Yeah, cocaine
a schedule too drug, right, marijuana, Schedule one you can
do more selfly cocaine and yeah, And that's crazy because
the weed that they do test is that same weed
that's been growing at the University of Old miss Yin
and we've had so many leaps and bounds with what
(18:15):
weed is capable of doing. Now, I've seen that in
Mississippi week, I've had it. It is. It does not
look pretty compared to what's out there now. And there's yeah,
so we don't even know what benefits there could be.
And they're still finding more molecules indo connabinoid system all
this stuff I'm learning, So yeah, benefits potential harms. Like
(18:38):
right now we're operating in this space of no knowledge um,
and that's that's going to have negative effects for everyone.
That's what's up. So go to last Nu's project or
get active, like you said, called your local on the state,
and everybody got to push for the field everyone. I mean,
(18:59):
this should be sort of Americans don't agree on anything.
They do agree on legal weed. Let's make it happen, right. Yes,
they need to know, they need to know. Thank you,
Thank you so much. This is such an important topic
and I'm really grateful that you're spending time on it.
It's something that a lot of people do not know
about and that's a shame. We got a couple of
(19:20):
bills to pay, but we'll be right back. Money money, money. Hi.
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(20:04):
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(20:25):
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(20:47):
dot org. Just waiting on this call from Edwin rubis
Yeah get to hear his story, which is one of
(21:08):
the casualties of the drug war. Yeah. So, um, for
those of you don't know, Edwin Rubis um is you know,
right now in federal prison for allegedly trafficking marijuana from
the border to Houston on conspiracy. No drugs were ever
found at his home, it was just people that were
(21:30):
arrested said that he had been transporting drugs from Okay, Okay.
This call is from a federal prison. You will not
be charged for this call. This call is from This
call will be recorded and subject to monitoring at any time.
To accept this call, press five to block this call
(21:53):
in all future calls. Press seven to reject this call.
Hang up now. You may begin speaking now. Hello, Hello,
Hi Edwin, how are you doing it? Well? How are you?
How are you doing? Man, I'm doing I'm doing okay
despite the circumstances. Yes, right right, This is Clayton English
(22:13):
and Greg glaud And you know, thank you for calling
into the War on Drugs podcast. Yes, yes, no problem. Yes,
I want to thank you all for the opportunity to
be able to speak a new platform. Yeah, absolutely, And
I know we we're short on time too, so we'll
get into it. So you know why don't we just
start from kind of the beginning, Um, you know how
(22:33):
this all occurred and transpired, you know, going a little
beforehand and what the things that you're going through. Um,
so just kind of tell your story and then we
can get in everything else. Okay, Well, basically, h the
golf pass force came to my house and read in
my house and told me I was being charged with
conspiracy to distribute to marijuana and right, and they found
(22:55):
nothing at your house, right, Yeah, I mean when they
came to my house, when they came to my house,
and basically it was early in the morning, and they
came and me on the floor, ransacked the house from
to bottom. My son was traumatized by the halivn. Of course,
my pregnant wife was confused and just sat there. They
didn't know what was going on, and I didn't know
(23:16):
what was going on at first until I was they
explained to me with the reason why, you know, what's happening.
And they didn't find any guns, they didn't find any drugs,
they didn't find any money, but they still arrested me,
and they still took me down to the Federal building
you know, um downtown Houston, and they told me the charges,
(23:38):
and they took me to court and I was arraigned,
and then they told me that I was being charged
for conspiracy to distribute twenty two hundred pounds on marijuana
with a maximum sentence of life. And I couldn't really believe,
you know, what I was being charged with. And I said,
you know, I was shocked, and I asked, I said, well,
where does this derived from, you know? And basically they
(23:59):
told me that people, this call is from a federal
prison at the Drug Enforcement Agency, and that they were
co operating with the government, that were cooperating with the government,
and given him my name, and we're saying that I
was involved with them, you know, for selling marijuana. And
this is solely based on somebody else, just what they say. Yeah,
(24:21):
And basically the conspiracy laws worked out a way. I
had to learn that the heartwaight, of course, And after
so many years have been in prison, I've come to
understand that if there's an agreement between two people that
basically say or agree that someone else has been a
participant in an illegal painter or or illegal transaction of drugs,
(24:44):
then that person can be arrested basically with the same
charges that those two are a green that you had
something to do with. Yeah, and they can do that
without any drugs on the table. That, yes, they can
do that. And I'm a prime example of And at
that time I didn't really know anyone. I had lost
contact with the people that I had been telling drugs,
(25:06):
and so he was very difficult for me to say, Okay,
well this Joe blow here, you know he's selling drugs
or you know this is a guy John. You know,
he's also saying I couldn't say that. I mean, there
was no way that I could have given him any
type of information even if I wanted to. So I
ended up happening is in my ignorance, you know, I
decided to go to trials, and that was the worst
(25:27):
decision that I could have made in my life. You know,
I didn't know what the ramifications were going to be.
My attorney basically didn't present any type of witnesses on
the witness stand. He told me not to testify. There
wasn't any evidence that shown, you know, to try to
demonstrate my innocence. Yeah, no physical evidence. Nothing was found.
(25:48):
I mean, yes, nothing was found. No, of course not
if anything would have been found, then I guess again,
you have to understand that I was ignorant to the law.
I was twenty eight, twenty years old, and I mean
there was no way I couldn't. I mean, I don't
know how to um basically believe that they could have
(26:09):
find me guilty of it. Could have said okay, well
we're going to convict you based on over the mouth,
and I didn't understand that. But again I had to
learn that the hardware, and I have learned that the hardware.
But most people think of the judicial system, if they
don't have any evidence, what are they going to hold
against me? And you know, you were just operating under
the assumption that I think most people have, you know,
(26:31):
most Americans have, and so really your only way out
of the situation was for you to give somebody else
up and continue this psychic wow exactly. And I couldn't,
I mean even if I wanted to. I mean again,
the people, the leaders of the conspiracy, the leaders in
my case, I wasn't a leader, the leaders in my case.
Basically I had been arrested and other among others, and
(26:53):
that this call is from a federal prison operating and trying,
you know, to try to get their centers reduce. So
here I come. You know, I'm arrested. I'm not a
leader of the conspiracy of the or the case, and
you know, and I'm trying to prove my innocence. So
the government uses all the testimony from them to basically
label me as the guy that was in charge when
(27:15):
I wasn't. And they know that. And even in my case,
if you read the transcripts of my situation, I mean,
on my case in my trial, you're gonna basically easily
come to understand it. That's the case. You know that
I wasn't a leader. And it was kind of ironic
now is that the leaders of the organization, or the
leaders of the or my case in my case, have
(27:37):
been released, every single one of them. The actual people
that were doing this whole thing, making the connections, making
the deals, doing whatever else intimidating you, are able to
walk free because they have, you know, higher paid attorneys.
They understand what's going on, and they had information to
flip on people that were actually less culpable in this
whole thing. I mean, yes, because of the reason that
(27:57):
I couldn't cooperate with them and I couldn't flip you know,
all the you know, I couldn't flip in his nature
on other people. And that's one of the main reasons why,
you know, I received such a harsh sentence. You know,
I proceeded to trial, and you know, they gave me
every single type of enhancements that they could have gave me.
They game me abstructional justice, they gave me leadership role,
(28:18):
they gave me a gun that they didn't exist because
I was never found with any type of weapons, but
people testified and they said, oh, yes, yeah, he had
he had a gun sometimes. Yeah, and that's and they'll
use all of that information to basically enhance your sentence. Yeah,
it's incredible. You know. By now I have already done,
you know, over twenty four years and two months to
(28:40):
the day, I have been imprisoned, you know, serving this
non violent cannabis off you know, for this non violent
cannabis offense. And I still have ten years left to go.
But it doesn't defeat me, you know, because for the
simple fact is you know, yes, I mean when I
first came into a prison, I was extremely depressed, and
(29:00):
I was distraught, and I still struggling with drug addiction.
And you know, the demons that I was dealing out
in the streets. I was still dealing with them in prison,
and to the point that it became very unbearable. You know,
there was a time, you know, the first year and
a half two years was extremely difficult that I even
tried to commit suicide, you know, I try to take
my own life. I couldn't face the fact that I
(29:22):
was looking, you know, to my release date that was
going to be thirty five years later. I mean, my
mother was suffering, you know, and my children, my ex
wife were left out on the street. I mean it
was horrible. I mean, and there was nothing I could
do about it. I mean, all I could do was called,
(29:43):
you know, them on the phone for fifteen minutes, just
as I'm doing that, as just as I'm doing that
right now, you know, and talk to them. And I
didn't really do much for them. Yeah, and this all
costs significant money. You know, I work in criminal justice policy,
so I'm aware, you know, you know, commissary items. It's
the phone calls, it's the video chats, it's emails. They
call them stamps where you have to buy stamps just
(30:04):
to send an email. If you want to send an
attachment to an email that's another stamp. And so you know, I,
you know, we read about how you were trying to
you know, you're trying to better yourself in there, and
you're trying to go through college courses and all these
different things, but you had to essentially choose between you know,
eating sometimes um or sending an email or um getting
tuition bits and things like that. Can you talk a
(30:25):
little bit about some of those kind of struggles that
you've had with that whole area of the prison system.
And I'm sorry, I'm just I'm about to play break
down crying because you know, it's just it's so hard,
you know, at the times that I have found myself
going through that in and I had to make a choice,
you know, to either you know, purchase some things, or
(30:47):
you know, or purchase my college books. And but again,
I haven't given up, you know, I haven't allowed my
circumstances to defeat me. M You know, I have tried,
you know, through my face and my perseverance to try
to make something of myself. You know, despite being behind
Edwin is we got people listening here. What is something
(31:10):
we can do to help? What is something that people
listening at home can do to help in any capacity.
The thing that I request for people is to sponsor me.
But our request is for people to raise a race,
a voice, to basically to say, enough is enough? Why
are you keeping this man behind prison bars? When this
(31:34):
man has been truly rehabilitated. This man has accomplished more
than anyone could accomplish under those dire conditions. Yes, that's
what I want people to basically know. This call is
from a federal prison. I mean, it's unfair. I mean,
it's just I mean, people don't really have a clear
picture of what a prisoner actually goes through behind the fence,
(31:57):
and you know, we don't. Of course, we have different
programs that show up in the violent um you know,
notion or angle of what takes place behind prison walls
that you know, they never really demonstrate the emotional turmoil,
the anguish, and the mental anguish that our prisoner goes
through when he's being deprived of having that affection of
(32:20):
hugging their loved ones, of having that social connection with
the people that he loves. You know, those are the
things that they don't demonstrate, and those are the things
that I believe affects a lot of people behind prison walls.
You know you have people in here suffering from PTSD.
You have people are here taking medication, and you know
you have people here breaking down sometimes and going to
(32:42):
suicide watch. That happened to me when I first came
into prison, and like I said, I wanted to take
my own life. I just couldn't fathom the notion that
I was gonna be in prison for forty years and
it was just insane. And that's probably compounded by the
fact that you're innocent for most of the things, the
gun and the hearsay, and they caught you with no evidence,
(33:03):
so or you're you're doing you did something that other
people are making millions of dollars off of right now.
It's an unjust system, to say the least. Is there
any way do you want people to contact you or
email or I don't know how ye, any any other
ways that yeah, we can go out or anything you'd
like to say before we go here? Yes, um, there
is there is an email address on my brothers and
(33:26):
our ministers and it's called Edwin Rubies at a or
L dot com. Okay, okay, yeah, we'll plug that in
our podcast link and everything else. We'll we'll put that
in there and so people can this call it's from
a federal prison. Really greatly appreciate you're giving me the
time to be able to speak with you. No, thank you,
It means it means a lot, you know. In one
(33:49):
last thing that I would like to say, if you
will allow me to, yes, please, that the fact that
you know when I communicate with people, when I speak
to people over the phone, as I'm speaking to you
right now, to me, that is oxygen to my lungs.
That is life given to me because I come to
think of it as a way of knowing that there's
(34:09):
a world for me out there waiting on me, and
that I'm not just here in prison, and that this
is my life. Because you have to understand the perception
of living behind personal walls for almost twenty five years
and not knowing when you're going to be able to
see society again. You know, by the time I get out,
(34:30):
I'm going to be sixty three years old if I
have to do the remaining of my sentence, and by
that time, I would have spent thirty four years prison
for a non violent cannabis offense. And to me, that
is harsh. I mean, it's inexplicable. So when I speak
to people like you, and I speak to other people
(34:51):
you know, from society, it gives me hope and that
is what keeps me going. It gives me faith to
know that one day I would be a to speak
to you personally out there in the streets. Well yeah,
when when that happens, I'll be there because I would
love to shake your hand and give you a hug
for everything you're doing, you know, and hopefully, you know,
we can get your home a little bit earlier with
(35:12):
all the you know, support that you're getting out here.
So yeah, yeah, man, yeah, we see what you're doing.
Love what you're doing, and uh, we're gonna do everything
we can to get the word out. And thank you.
Is there anything else you would want to tell the
people out there listening? All right, I love each one
of you. That's all I want to say. I love
each one of you. Amen, Thank you, thank you, thank you,
(35:36):
Thank you so much. Man, thank you, thank you. We'll
be right back with the War on Drugs podcast. Well
it's um it's uh man y yeah, that was that
(35:59):
was That was That was tough because you hear it,
but it's different hearing it from somebody in there being
reminded that they're in there, and then uh yeah. At
one point while he was talking, I just I felt,
I can I can see myself in that situation, Like
nobody would want to do any of those things he's
(36:20):
describing for one to two years, let alone twenty four, right,
and like the hypocrisy of it all, Like you know,
this morning where I'm getting ready to come over here
to the studio to record, and we're about to this thing,
and you know, I see it's like nine to forty
and I'm like, oh, the market's open for the stock markets,
like let's see how much money I've already lost, and
cannabis stocks I'm looking at them, and how crazy is
(36:40):
that that publicly traded entities, right, profiting off of sales
of legal marijuana in this country, in Canada and all
over the world. And then there's an individual there that's
in federal prison for forty years and not looking at
coming home till twenty thirty. Yeah, it's just a lot
(37:01):
it's it's it's a lot um. So that's you know,
as we think that we're moving towards a more actual
system or legalizing marijuana is going to be you know,
everything's all good. There are still thousands of people like Edwin,
and cars are at the state and federal level for
things that are now completely legal. Right. Um, it's just wrong.
(37:21):
And hopefully you know, things can things can change and
and folks like him can get home. Yeah, and with
people like us and the people listening, maybe we can
you know, change the course. Yeah, I mean again, call
your congress people, call the free presidents, call the Department
of Justice, like getting up support for this. I'm telling you,
it does work, um, and it can help. And so
(37:43):
it's just a case that um, you know, really really
impact me. I know, I know it's impact both of
us just talking to him. So I hope that comes through. Um,
I hope you. I hope this drives you to want
to do something more about this and get bills passed,
get people like him home, and so you know we
can kind of move forward and he can have a
positive impact in our lives. I think he'd be a
tremendous value to society. Absolutely. Yeah. Make sure you follow
(38:09):
the War on Drugs podcast so you don't miss any
new episodes or any of our Quick Fix bonus content,
and we'll be right back next week with another episode
of War on Drugs. Until then, Thank you so much
for listening. Executive producers for War on Drugs are Jason
Flum and Kevin Wards. Senior producer is Michael livest Editing
by Nick Massetti and Michael Epstein, Associate producer and mix
(38:33):
and mastering by Nick Massetti. Additional production by Jeff Clatburn
and Anna mecintial. Be sure to follow the show on Instagram,
Twitter and Facebook at Lava for Good. You can follow
Greg on Twitter that's me at Greg Glode and Clayton
on Instagram at Clayton English. The War on Drugs is
a production of Lava for Good Podcasts, an association with
(38:54):
Signal Company Number One. I'm your host, Greg Glode and
I'm your host Clayton English, and thanks for listening to
the War on Drugs podcast. M
Okay, Greg, check this out. I learned something. I learned
a lot working with you, but this one kind of
took me back. Did you know that the cops don't
have to find any drugs on you for you to
be convicted and in prison for a drug crime? Then
what are you talking about? This call is from a
federal prison. You will not be charged for this call.
We can say pretty confidently that at any point in time,
(00:24):
they're over forty thousand people incarcerated for cannabis in this country.
The door, I mean, we have clients who are serving
life without the possibility of roles for selling twenty dollars
worth of week. That's correct. This call will be recorded
and subject to monitoring at any time. You may begin
speaking now. The Golf ass Force, you came to my
(00:47):
house and read in my house, and I taught me
I was being charged with conspiracy to distribute are one
of the department. They didn't find any guns, they didn't
find any drugs, they didn't find any money, but feelbout
ristany and they told me that I would be charged
for conspiracy to distribute twenty two hundred pounds tomorrow one
with a maximum census of life and this is solely
(01:09):
based on somebody else, just what they saying. Yeah, and
they can do that without any drugs on the table
on the climbing sound. Hey, this is Clayton English. This
is Greg Glad and this is the war on drug Greg?
(01:30):
What's going on? How much clay now are you doing?
I'm good man. We got a little bit of a
special episode today, right, a little bit longer than the others.
U two interviews Natalie Pappion with the Last Prisoner Project
and uh Edwin Rubis who's incarcerated right now where it
telldega okay Teldegan Alabama at a federal penitentiary right out there. Yeah,
(01:54):
and I can't wait for people to hear it because
it's comment was it was a riot. It made me
feel a lot of different feelings, anger, upset, and you know,
he really kind of just put you in his shoes.
And I don't think we think about it. This is
(02:15):
the first interview that we've had where we talked to
somebody that currently yeah, in prison and living with it. Yeah,
and you know a lot of the things that you
told me as we've started this podcast, I just saw
first hand in this interview, right, how we criminalize addiction. Yea,
how people get wrapped up in this, How you get
(02:35):
the trial, going to trial, exercising your constitutional rights, going
to trial, How that damages you, the crazy sentences, the
problems in prison, how you get back. I mean it
really like start to finish, like shows every little problem
that you have in the system. And it's it's so
much bigger than anything you could imagine. Like once you
(02:58):
once I found out that the people that really need
to be locked up can give up lesser people and
get less time. That's feels like the complete opposite of
what our legal system is designed to do. Right, But
and Actuality is perfectly designed to do just that exactly
because again it's not about the drugs, right Yeah. And
(03:21):
and Edwin's case got on our radar from you know,
the Last Prisoner Project when we were talking to them
and Natalie papillon Um who works over there, and you know,
it's an organization that does, you know, trying to help
individuals that are currently incarcerated from arijuana fences to be
able to get released and you know successful inner society.
You see what you see, what she's fighting for isn't
(03:43):
just something on paper or just this it's real people
getting affected by these things. Yeah, and the people that's designed,
like the cartel is not scared. Are the people in
charge or not scared? I actually, you know they enjoy this,
They like it. Yeah, because there needs to be a scalp, right, Yeah,
(04:03):
like if you got you got these numbers pinted this
person who didn't have a fraction of what we had
to do with it, and they get to take the Brennan,
we get to keep riberating perfect. Everybody wins as far
as the corrupt bullish it. Yeah. No one loves mandatory
minimums and conspiracy charges more than El Chopo and all
(04:27):
these guys. I mean, who who loves prohibition more than
alcol Yeah? So I'm really excited for you all to
listen to this. We have an amazing conversation with Natalie,
and then we speak with Edwin and m Yeah. Let's
I think bready get into it. Yeah. Absolutely, Natalie. How
(04:49):
are you doing today? I'm doing great. I'm excited about this.
Thanks for having me. Man, We're so excited to have
you here doing the lord's work. Yeah, you're doing what
needs to be done. I mean, I think there's so
many people that have been thrown away in the system
for such a small infraction, and infraction that in most
(05:10):
places as legal are close to legal. Now, so can
you start us off with just the scale of the
problem and the injustice when it comes to marijuana arrest
and who would affect Yeah, I think let's start from
this misconception that now that many states have either liberalized
their cannabis laws or outright legalized, they don't use cannabis,
(05:32):
No one's being arrested, no one's being incarcerated for possession
or distribution, and everyone who was formally incarcerated has been
sort of let free the prison gates have opened. That
is definitely not true. But we have done a lot
of internal research at Last Prisoner Project and we can
say with you know, pretty confidently that at any point
(05:52):
in time, they're over forty thousand people incarcerated for cannabis
in this country, which is you know, a ton of people,
especially when you consider the fact that twenty states have
legalized for adult use, and you know, doesn't more have
decriminalize the plan. So we're seeing an injustice and a
(06:14):
hypocrisy where many people are minting millions of dollars off
of selling cannabis in their states. You know, they're buying
pot stocks while others are being sentenced to not just
you know, a few days, weeks, months in prison for
even something as simple as marijuana possession. I mean, we
have clients who are serving life without the possibility of
(06:37):
parole for selling twenty dollars worth of weed. That's crazy.
Whenever I tell people, they assume I'm making things up
or being hyperbolic, but I was. Unfortunately, it's true. And
how does that happen? You know? This one man, I'm
thinking about mister Kevin Allen. He was sentenced to life
without the possibility of parole because he was considered under
(06:58):
Louisiana state law habitual Now that seems really scary and okay,
habitual offender like terrorizing our communities whatnot? He had, you know,
for previous arrest and they were all for drug possession,
all non violent. So we have these incredibly draconian laws
on the books. We have judges and energy social system
(07:18):
that doesn't isn't empowered to look at the full facts
of the case. You know, they have to look at
mandatory minimums, they have to look at habitual offender laws,
and that leaves you in a situation where we have
people serving life for twenty dollars with a week. Yeah,
it's crazy, and like marijuana kind of just feels like
it gets like thrown onto the rug. But it is
one of the biggest drivers of not only just you know,
(07:40):
criminal justice contacts through arrest, but also incarceration. Yeah, you
touched on a really great point. So throughout sort of
the recent history in the US, marijuana law enforcement has
ebbed and flows, but the nineteen nineties and you know,
at the very beginning of the nineties, we start to
see a huge ramping up of marijuana related arrests. So
you know, illustrate that in nineteen ninety one there were
(08:02):
eighty eight thousand marijuana arrests across the country. In two
thousand two, we're seeing seven hundred thirty thousand marijuana arrest
So why did that happen? One is sort of the
cratering of crime rates post the nineteen eighties. And you
know what police have to do with those bloated budgets
(08:23):
and how they have to utilize them, and how they're
incentivized to utilize them, and they do that by doing
the easiest thing they can do is start picking people
up on the street for weed. Right. We also have
this mythology start in the nineteen nineties around the youthful
sort of marijuana menace. Right, So we have this idea
that predominantly young black men may have either been in
(08:45):
car already, are already in cars rated for crack, or
you know, are not using crack or distributing crack as
much as they might have been in the nineteen eighties,
and they're instead turning to marijuana. Is not just contained
to the inner cities, they're sort of predilection and for
marijuana use is actually spreading into the suburbs. And I'm
going to be totally blunt, no pun intended, you know,
(09:07):
infecting white suburban youth. And this is a crisis, and
we need to protect the children. And in order to
protect the children, we need to basically stop stop frisk
and throw every young black man who might have a
dime bag on them into prison. Yeah. So you touch
on something, and it's something that I've worked with quite
a bit. You know, as states have attempted to either
decriminalize or legalize marijuana, you know, you sometimes get sometimes
(09:31):
almost every time, push back from law enforcement. And what
I've noticed is like it's not necessarily the prohibition of
the drug itself. It's what comes around with it and
some of the collateral issues. So it's like, well, now
we're going to lose this thing that we have in
our back pocket if we smell marijuana? Are you or
we can do a stop and frisk on you and
(09:52):
have a dime bag if it's legal those go away.
Can you kind of touch on like some of the
other collateral aspects of like what no on legalization looks
like in those states and how that allows for government
control over individuals through that and what they're losing from
a legalization standpoint the government. So you mentioned one thing
about the odor of marijuana, So that's obviously been the case,
(10:15):
that's been the basis for so many pretextual stops across
the country. When it becomes legalized, and if it's legalized
in the right way, police use that sort of investigative tool.
I don't have a lot of empathy for law enforcement
departments who say they basically need to skirt the Constitution
in order to do their job. If I'm being totally candid,
(10:35):
I think if you can't do your job and protect
public safety without stopping a bunch of people for smoking weed,
then you're probably in the wrong line of work, and
oftentimes this stuff can turn deadly. I don't know if
you remember the story of Philando Castile, but the cop
who sort of approached him said he smelled marijuana, and
(10:56):
he said that smell made him fear for his life. Now,
this is a cop, you know, a young cop in Minnesota.
That doesn't really hold water for me. But you know,
you can say that because it's illegal, and you know,
there have been so many court cases that say it's
the basis for protectural stops and people can can get
away with approaching people and killing people because of that
(11:18):
marijuana impetus. That's just so crazy. Like if you can
smell like cocaine, then you are a kingpin, you are boss,
you are a scarface. But weed is one of the
only things, Like yeah, just a small amount, and like
you said, people have lost their life. Like for him
to say he was fearful because of the smell of marijuana,
it goes back to kind of the racial tones that
(11:40):
it has. You're fearful because they've associated marijuana with black
people to make you fearful. Yeah, it's it's crazy. When
you see the numbers as they just kind of stay
in these horrible hundreds of thousands of people still getting
arrested for marijuana offense's mainly possession only, and still going
on in twenty twenty when we're twenty twenty two now,
(12:01):
And so I know in some states they'll legalize it,
but they don't make provisions to like make for retroactive
sentencing for people that are in behind bars, or if
you have a criminal record for something that's legal now,
to like seal that or expongic. So, can you talk
about some of the complications that we see within the
criminal justice system now as we move to legal that
are still hindering people that were caught up in it
(12:23):
prior to yes, So oftentimes activists or policymakers will put
forth a legalization proposal, they'll spend a lot of time
thinking about tax rates, a lot of time thinking about
like what agency should be sort of the regulatory body
governing cannabis operations, and they rarely ever think about, Okay,
what happens to the people who either still incarcerated or
(12:46):
the people who were previous incarcerated and have this sort
of black mark on their records, And so consumers, the
general public think, Okay, it's legal, now, everyone goes free.
Whereas if you don't actually write that explicitly and do
it in a smart way into the law, people are
still remaining in prison. So they are in prison while
they are reading magazines that talk about the latest pot billionaire. Right.
(13:09):
Can you imagine what that would feel like? Um? That's
you know. I we have constituents who say, I was
serving a ten year sentence and I turned on the
TV while I was in jail, and I saw, you know,
a conversation on the local news station about like pop
moms and these like women, um making millions of dollars
selling selling weed to like rich Beverly Hills moms. Um.
(13:31):
So there are a lot of issues of their criminal
legal system. I think this is the most one of
the most obvious examples of just the hypocrisy UM and
sort of the two systems of justice. According to like,
if you're you're white, wealthy and well connected versus if
you're you know, black or brown and low income, you're
treated quite differently in a very literal sense with the
with the two systems of justice. A lot of times,
(13:53):
for a lot of people that I'm around, sometimes it
just feels hopeless, Like what can be done? Like I
like to be a solution based person. What needs to
be done? What can be done at a state and
federal level. What's some things that people should be looking towards,
a pushing for in their community to at least try
(14:17):
to balance this out. No, I want to be solution
oriented as well. I think, you know, this is sort
of table stakes. We need to have federal decriminalization and
ideally federal legalization both to sort of stop the criminalization
of cannabis that's happening on the federal level. Now we're
not seeing huge numbers of people sentenced for marijuana on
(14:38):
the federal level, but you know, a thousand a year,
So we need to stop that obviously, and that's something
we can do just by a simple Act of Congress.
But also because federal decriminalization will set a tone, you know,
for other states who have yet to decriminalize or legalize.
It will help sort of read, it will help policy
(14:59):
make rethink how they're attributing and how they're distributing those
you know, burn grants, those federal funds, so we can
actually fund police to do work that makes our community
safer as opposed to racking up marijuana arrest. Federal legalization
decrimination is also really important because it will lessen a
lot of those taxes, a lot of those expenses and
(15:22):
capital expenditures happening for state regulated businesses so they can
and that's going to incentivize people to move from the
black or gray market into the regulated market and all
of the good things that come along without you know,
that's an increase of public health, public safety. That's something
that's really really important. We don't have like move like
(15:42):
people don't make moonshine anymore. Like we don't have a
we don't have bootleggers. And I think that's a really
great thing. But I don't know if you've been a
Tennessee you know, I will say my family is from
Tennessee and they have been known to throw a bat,
but they have like we now have like craft moonshiners. Right,
the vast majority of alcohol sales are happening in a
(16:03):
way where you can where you can sort of track them,
where you can make sure that underage folks aren't getting,
you know, their hands on anything shouldn't be, where you
can make sure that things are tested and regulated, and
so for and so on. Just it's a win for
everything for everyone, and that only really happens when there's
federal legalization. So you know, it's really hard to get
(16:25):
this Congress to agree upon anything, but I will say
the vast majority of Americans, Republicans, independence, Democrats, support federal
legalization and they support allowing the states to do what
they wish when it comes to regulating cannabis commerce within
their boundaries. And so we need to put pressure on
Congress to sort of heed you be responsive to the
people you seek to represent or you're claiming to represent,
(16:49):
and do this. And then in states that have yet
to legalize, make sure that you're pressuring your state lawmakers
to do that right and not only legalize, but do
it in a smart way. Think about the long term
implications of the policy, and make sure you're prioritizing those
criminal justice reforms. And you know, I focus a lot
on the criminal justice aspects of this issue, but they're
(17:09):
also real like medical and public health implications to this. Right. So,
because cannabis is a Schedule one drug, which is a
whole other story. It's a whole it's a wild story.
No one can do any scientists can't do any research,
right or less they be arrested. So we don't actually
know as much as we should know about this substance
(17:30):
that half of American adults will consume in their lifetime. Right,
And that's, you know, in a word, a little problematic.
You know, some Israel is doing a lot of interesting research,
there's some European countries who are doing interesting research. But
there's obviously some medical efficacy to cannabis consumption, but we're
not able to maximize that. Or because we're the schedule
(17:52):
one designation means no one can do research. Yeah, cocaine
a schedule too drug, right, marijuana, Schedule one you can
do more selfly cocaine and yeah, And that's crazy because
the weed that they do test is that same weed
that's been growing at the University of Old miss Yin
and we've had so many leaps and bounds with what
(18:15):
weed is capable of doing. Now, I've seen that in
Mississippi week, I've had it. It is. It does not
look pretty compared to what's out there now. And there's yeah,
so we don't even know what benefits there could be.
And they're still finding more molecules indo connabinoid system all
this stuff I'm learning, So yeah, benefits potential harms. Like
(18:38):
right now we're operating in this space of no knowledge um,
and that's that's going to have negative effects for everyone.
That's what's up. So go to last Nu's project or
get active, like you said, called your local on the state,
and everybody got to push for the field everyone. I mean,
(18:59):
this should be sort of Americans don't agree on anything.
They do agree on legal weed. Let's make it happen, right. Yes,
they need to know, they need to know. Thank you,
Thank you so much. This is such an important topic
and I'm really grateful that you're spending time on it.
It's something that a lot of people do not know
about and that's a shame. We got a couple of
(19:20):
bills to pay, but we'll be right back. Money money, money. Hi.
I'm Jason Flam CEO and founder of Lava for Good podcasts,
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dot org. Just waiting on this call from Edwin rubis
Yeah get to hear his story, which is one of
(21:08):
the casualties of the drug war. Yeah. So, um, for
those of you don't know, Edwin Rubis um is you know,
right now in federal prison for allegedly trafficking marijuana from
the border to Houston on conspiracy. No drugs were ever
found at his home, it was just people that were
(21:30):
arrested said that he had been transporting drugs from Okay, Okay.
This call is from a federal prison. You will not
be charged for this call. This call is from This
call will be recorded and subject to monitoring at any time.
To accept this call, press five to block this call
(21:53):
in all future calls. Press seven to reject this call.
Hang up now. You may begin speaking now. Hello, Hello,
Hi Edwin, how are you doing it? Well? How are you?
How are you doing? Man, I'm doing I'm doing okay
despite the circumstances. Yes, right right, This is Clayton English
(22:13):
and Greg glaud And you know, thank you for calling
into the War on Drugs podcast. Yes, yes, no problem. Yes,
I want to thank you all for the opportunity to
be able to speak a new platform. Yeah, absolutely, And
I know we we're short on time too, so we'll
get into it. So you know why don't we just
start from kind of the beginning, Um, you know how
(22:33):
this all occurred and transpired, you know, going a little
beforehand and what the things that you're going through. Um,
so just kind of tell your story and then we
can get in everything else. Okay, Well, basically, h the
golf pass force came to my house and read in
my house and told me I was being charged with
conspiracy to distribute to marijuana and right, and they found
(22:55):
nothing at your house, right, Yeah, I mean when they
came to my house, when they came to my house,
and basically it was early in the morning, and they
came and me on the floor, ransacked the house from
to bottom. My son was traumatized by the halivn. Of course,
my pregnant wife was confused and just sat there. They
didn't know what was going on, and I didn't know
(23:16):
what was going on at first until I was they
explained to me with the reason why, you know, what's happening.
And they didn't find any guns, they didn't find any drugs,
they didn't find any money, but they still arrested me,
and they still took me down to the Federal building
you know, um downtown Houston, and they told me the charges,
(23:38):
and they took me to court and I was arraigned,
and then they told me that I was being charged
for conspiracy to distribute twenty two hundred pounds on marijuana
with a maximum sentence of life. And I couldn't really believe,
you know, what I was being charged with. And I said,
you know, I was shocked, and I asked, I said, well,
where does this derived from, you know? And basically they
(23:59):
told me that people, this call is from a federal
prison at the Drug Enforcement Agency, and that they were
co operating with the government, that were cooperating with the government,
and given him my name, and we're saying that I
was involved with them, you know, for selling marijuana. And
this is solely based on somebody else, just what they say. Yeah,
(24:21):
And basically the conspiracy laws worked out a way. I
had to learn that the heartwaight, of course, And after
so many years have been in prison, I've come to
understand that if there's an agreement between two people that
basically say or agree that someone else has been a
participant in an illegal painter or or illegal transaction of drugs,
(24:44):
then that person can be arrested basically with the same
charges that those two are a green that you had
something to do with. Yeah, and they can do that
without any drugs on the table. That, yes, they can
do that. And I'm a prime example of And at
that time I didn't really know anyone. I had lost
contact with the people that I had been telling drugs,
(25:06):
and so he was very difficult for me to say, Okay,
well this Joe blow here, you know he's selling drugs
or you know this is a guy John. You know,
he's also saying I couldn't say that. I mean, there
was no way that I could have given him any
type of information even if I wanted to. So I
ended up happening is in my ignorance, you know, I
decided to go to trials, and that was the worst
(25:27):
decision that I could have made in my life. You know,
I didn't know what the ramifications were going to be.
My attorney basically didn't present any type of witnesses on
the witness stand. He told me not to testify. There
wasn't any evidence that shown, you know, to try to
demonstrate my innocence. Yeah, no physical evidence. Nothing was found.
(25:48):
I mean, yes, nothing was found. No, of course not
if anything would have been found, then I guess again,
you have to understand that I was ignorant to the law.
I was twenty eight, twenty years old, and I mean
there was no way I couldn't. I mean, I don't
know how to um basically believe that they could have
(26:09):
find me guilty of it. Could have said okay, well
we're going to convict you based on over the mouth,
and I didn't understand that. But again I had to
learn that the hardware, and I have learned that the hardware.
But most people think of the judicial system, if they
don't have any evidence, what are they going to hold
against me? And you know, you were just operating under
the assumption that I think most people have, you know,
(26:31):
most Americans have, and so really your only way out
of the situation was for you to give somebody else
up and continue this psychic wow exactly. And I couldn't,
I mean even if I wanted to. I mean again,
the people, the leaders of the conspiracy, the leaders in
my case, I wasn't a leader, the leaders in my case.
Basically I had been arrested and other among others, and
(26:53):
that this call is from a federal prison operating and trying,
you know, to try to get their centers reduce. So
here I come. You know, I'm arrested. I'm not a
leader of the conspiracy of the or the case, and
you know, and I'm trying to prove my innocence. So
the government uses all the testimony from them to basically
label me as the guy that was in charge when
(27:15):
I wasn't. And they know that. And even in my case,
if you read the transcripts of my situation, I mean,
on my case in my trial, you're gonna basically easily
come to understand it. That's the case. You know that
I wasn't a leader. And it was kind of ironic
now is that the leaders of the organization, or the
leaders of the or my case in my case, have
(27:37):
been released, every single one of them. The actual people
that were doing this whole thing, making the connections, making
the deals, doing whatever else intimidating you, are able to
walk free because they have, you know, higher paid attorneys.
They understand what's going on, and they had information to
flip on people that were actually less culpable in this
whole thing. I mean, yes, because of the reason that
(27:57):
I couldn't cooperate with them and I couldn't flip you know,
all the you know, I couldn't flip in his nature
on other people. And that's one of the main reasons why,
you know, I received such a harsh sentence. You know,
I proceeded to trial, and you know, they gave me
every single type of enhancements that they could have gave me.
They game me abstructional justice, they gave me leadership role,
(28:18):
they gave me a gun that they didn't exist because
I was never found with any type of weapons, but
people testified and they said, oh, yes, yeah, he had
he had a gun sometimes. Yeah, and that's and they'll
use all of that information to basically enhance your sentence. Yeah,
it's incredible. You know. By now I have already done,
you know, over twenty four years and two months to
(28:40):
the day, I have been imprisoned, you know, serving this
non violent cannabis off you know, for this non violent
cannabis offense. And I still have ten years left to go.
But it doesn't defeat me, you know, because for the
simple fact is you know, yes, I mean when I
first came into a prison, I was extremely depressed, and
(29:00):
I was distraught, and I still struggling with drug addiction.
And you know, the demons that I was dealing out
in the streets. I was still dealing with them in prison,
and to the point that it became very unbearable. You know,
there was a time, you know, the first year and
a half two years was extremely difficult that I even
tried to commit suicide, you know, I try to take
my own life. I couldn't face the fact that I
(29:22):
was looking, you know, to my release date that was
going to be thirty five years later. I mean, my
mother was suffering, you know, and my children, my ex
wife were left out on the street. I mean it
was horrible. I mean, and there was nothing I could
do about it. I mean, all I could do was called,
(29:43):
you know, them on the phone for fifteen minutes, just
as I'm doing that, as just as I'm doing that
right now, you know, and talk to them. And I
didn't really do much for them. Yeah, and this all
costs significant money. You know, I work in criminal justice policy,
so I'm aware, you know, you know, commissary items. It's
the phone calls, it's the video chats, it's emails. They
call them stamps where you have to buy stamps just
(30:04):
to send an email. If you want to send an
attachment to an email that's another stamp. And so you know, I,
you know, we read about how you were trying to
you know, you're trying to better yourself in there, and
you're trying to go through college courses and all these
different things, but you had to essentially choose between you know,
eating sometimes um or sending an email or um getting
tuition bits and things like that. Can you talk a
(30:25):
little bit about some of those kind of struggles that
you've had with that whole area of the prison system.
And I'm sorry, I'm just I'm about to play break
down crying because you know, it's just it's so hard,
you know, at the times that I have found myself
going through that in and I had to make a choice,
you know, to either you know, purchase some things, or
(30:47):
you know, or purchase my college books. And but again,
I haven't given up, you know, I haven't allowed my
circumstances to defeat me. M You know, I have tried,
you know, through my face and my perseverance to try
to make something of myself. You know, despite being behind
Edwin is we got people listening here. What is something
(31:10):
we can do to help? What is something that people
listening at home can do to help in any capacity.
The thing that I request for people is to sponsor me.
But our request is for people to raise a race,
a voice, to basically to say, enough is enough? Why
are you keeping this man behind prison bars? When this
(31:34):
man has been truly rehabilitated. This man has accomplished more
than anyone could accomplish under those dire conditions. Yes, that's
what I want people to basically know. This call is
from a federal prison. I mean, it's unfair. I mean,
it's just I mean, people don't really have a clear
picture of what a prisoner actually goes through behind the fence,
(31:57):
and you know, we don't. Of course, we have different
programs that show up in the violent um you know,
notion or angle of what takes place behind prison walls
that you know, they never really demonstrate the emotional turmoil,
the anguish, and the mental anguish that our prisoner goes
through when he's being deprived of having that affection of
(32:20):
hugging their loved ones, of having that social connection with
the people that he loves. You know, those are the
things that they don't demonstrate, and those are the things
that I believe affects a lot of people behind prison walls.
You know you have people in here suffering from PTSD.
You have people are here taking medication, and you know
you have people here breaking down sometimes and going to
(32:42):
suicide watch. That happened to me when I first came
into prison, and like I said, I wanted to take
my own life. I just couldn't fathom the notion that
I was gonna be in prison for forty years and
it was just insane. And that's probably compounded by the
fact that you're innocent for most of the things, the
gun and the hearsay, and they caught you with no evidence,
(33:03):
so or you're you're doing you did something that other
people are making millions of dollars off of right now.
It's an unjust system, to say the least. Is there
any way do you want people to contact you or
email or I don't know how ye, any any other
ways that yeah, we can go out or anything you'd
like to say before we go here? Yes, um, there
is there is an email address on my brothers and
(33:26):
our ministers and it's called Edwin Rubies at a or
L dot com. Okay, okay, yeah, we'll plug that in
our podcast link and everything else. We'll we'll put that
in there and so people can this call it's from
a federal prison. Really greatly appreciate you're giving me the
time to be able to speak with you. No, thank you,
It means it means a lot, you know. In one
(33:49):
last thing that I would like to say, if you
will allow me to, yes, please, that the fact that
you know when I communicate with people, when I speak
to people over the phone, as I'm speaking to you
right now, to me, that is oxygen to my lungs.
That is life given to me because I come to
think of it as a way of knowing that there's
(34:09):
a world for me out there waiting on me, and
that I'm not just here in prison, and that this
is my life. Because you have to understand the perception
of living behind personal walls for almost twenty five years
and not knowing when you're going to be able to
see society again. You know, by the time I get out,
(34:30):
I'm going to be sixty three years old if I
have to do the remaining of my sentence, and by
that time, I would have spent thirty four years prison
for a non violent cannabis offense. And to me, that
is harsh. I mean, it's inexplicable. So when I speak
to people like you, and I speak to other people
(34:51):
you know, from society, it gives me hope and that
is what keeps me going. It gives me faith to
know that one day I would be a to speak
to you personally out there in the streets. Well yeah,
when when that happens, I'll be there because I would
love to shake your hand and give you a hug
for everything you're doing, you know, and hopefully, you know,
we can get your home a little bit earlier with
(35:12):
all the you know, support that you're getting out here.
So yeah, yeah, man, yeah, we see what you're doing.
Love what you're doing, and uh, we're gonna do everything
we can to get the word out. And thank you.
Is there anything else you would want to tell the
people out there listening? All right, I love each one
of you. That's all I want to say. I love
each one of you. Amen, Thank you, thank you, thank you,
(35:36):
Thank you so much. Man, thank you, thank you. We'll
be right back with the War on Drugs podcast. Well
it's um it's uh man y yeah, that was that
(35:59):
was That was That was tough because you hear it,
but it's different hearing it from somebody in there being
reminded that they're in there, and then uh yeah. At
one point while he was talking, I just I felt,
I can I can see myself in that situation, Like
nobody would want to do any of those things he's
(36:20):
describing for one to two years, let alone twenty four, right,
and like the hypocrisy of it all, Like you know,
this morning where I'm getting ready to come over here
to the studio to record, and we're about to this thing,
and you know, I see it's like nine to forty
and I'm like, oh, the market's open for the stock markets,
like let's see how much money I've already lost, and
cannabis stocks I'm looking at them, and how crazy is
(36:40):
that that publicly traded entities, right, profiting off of sales
of legal marijuana in this country, in Canada and all
over the world. And then there's an individual there that's
in federal prison for forty years and not looking at
coming home till twenty thirty. Yeah, it's just a lot
(37:01):
it's it's it's a lot um. So that's you know,
as we think that we're moving towards a more actual
system or legalizing marijuana is going to be you know,
everything's all good. There are still thousands of people like Edwin,
and cars are at the state and federal level for
things that are now completely legal. Right. Um, it's just wrong.
(37:21):
And hopefully you know, things can things can change and
and folks like him can get home. Yeah, and with
people like us and the people listening, maybe we can
you know, change the course. Yeah, I mean again, call
your congress people, call the free presidents, call the Department
of Justice, like getting up support for this. I'm telling you,
it does work, um, and it can help. And so
(37:43):
it's just a case that um, you know, really really
impact me. I know, I know it's impact both of
us just talking to him. So I hope that comes through. Um,
I hope you. I hope this drives you to want
to do something more about this and get bills passed,
get people like him home, and so you know we
can kind of move forward and he can have a
positive impact in our lives. I think he'd be a
tremendous value to society. Absolutely. Yeah. Make sure you follow
(38:09):
the War on Drugs podcast so you don't miss any
new episodes or any of our Quick Fix bonus content,
and we'll be right back next week with another episode
of War on Drugs. Until then, Thank you so much
for listening. Executive producers for War on Drugs are Jason
Flum and Kevin Wards. Senior producer is Michael livest Editing
by Nick Massetti and Michael Epstein, Associate producer and mix
(38:33):
and mastering by Nick Massetti. Additional production by Jeff Clatburn
and Anna mecintial. Be sure to follow the show on Instagram,
Twitter and Facebook at Lava for Good. You can follow
Greg on Twitter that's me at Greg Glode and Clayton
on Instagram at Clayton English. The War on Drugs is
a production of Lava for Good Podcasts, an association with
(38:54):
Signal Company Number One. I'm your host, Greg Glode and
I'm your host Clayton English, and thanks for listening to
the War on Drugs podcast. M
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