July 20, 2023 • 40 mins
Episode 5 of THE WAR WITHIN sheds light on how Robert Bales' handles his present and future circumstances in Fort Leavenworth, where he's sentenced to life in prison, before asking the first of several crucial questions concerning the Kandahar Massacre: Were the Afghan civilians killed that fateful night... actually members of the enemy Taliban?
THE WAR WITHIN was produced Bungalow Media + Entertainment, Check Point Productions, and Mosquito Park Pictures, in association with iHeart Podcasts.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
John Henry Brown fought his ass off. He had used
everything he had through it before he entered the plee.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
John Meyer is the attorney that currently represents staff Sergeant
Robert Bales. Mar makes it clear that he respects the
lawyer who preceded him and.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
John Henry Brown. I think to his credit, he hung
up his cleats, if you will, when a death penalty
came off the table. I believe in his soul and
his country said, hey, I saved the guy's life. It's
undoubted that he shot and killed these people. We're seeking
a death penalty. We saved his life. John Henry Brown
also did something that to me is the hallmark of
(00:39):
a probe. He says, listen, fellas, my apologies. I'm embarrassed.
The two things, the two points that could have exonerated
or changed the whole thing in this case, I missed him.
If you need to throw me under the bus and
blame me, do it.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Previously, the war within.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
A case like Bales was a criminal investigation from the
very beginning.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
They're gonna give me the capital punishment. I thought I
was doing the right thing.
Speaker 5 (01:10):
It's pretty clear what happened in Bales is behind bars
where he should be.
Speaker 6 (01:14):
This is vesp ballimpy.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
It's a big fuck you to the Taliban. This is
their home.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
When I got out there, even the prosecution attests to
I'm asking for the Kailid.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
The u cmchange. They're gonna protect the army and at
the end of the day, see the army used a client.
Speaker 6 (01:29):
I'm punished.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
I know what I'm missing, my kids here without their father.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
This is the war within the Robert Bayles story. In
June of twenty thirteen, Robert Bales played guilty to the
unauthorized murder of sixteen Afghan civilians. His fate was the
result of a deal made with lead prosecutor Jaye Morse.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
When they came to us and said, what's it gonna
take to get death penalty off the table? To me,
it was well, that was my plan. We had been
doing things correctly. We presented a strong case, We had
the evidence.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
How did you feel when he pled guilty? Like you
go through this case, You've been on it for a
year and a half. What were your personal feelings when
that plea came in.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
I knew this is the most important thing I will
ever do in my professional life.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
On the side of the defense attorney John Henry Brown
hoped that a guilty plea would give his client a
chance at the best possible sentence.
Speaker 7 (02:33):
We felt it was a long shot that we would
get life with parole. Of course, being the eternal optimist,
thought the least they should do for Bobby was to
give him life with parole.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Two months later, on August twenty third, Bales would be
given life in Fort Leavenworth's military prison, no parole.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Brown was with him when it happened.
Speaker 7 (02:58):
It took him a long while to grasp the reality
of what a horrific situation he was really in. I
think he was a traditional soldier in the way that
he felt that the superiors would back him and not
turn against him. Of course, that's not excusing what he did.
(03:21):
There's no excuse.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
During the sentencing hearing, Morse did what he could to
close the door on any potential sympathy for the defendant.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
I knew that he was going to ask for mercy,
He's going to ask for leniencine. But I was also
sure that he was going to ask the panel to
think about his kids. He had two kids, and I
just thought that this goes back to this whole idea
of trying to personalize the victims. I mean, I want
the jury to have sympathy for Bail's kids like his
(03:53):
Bail's kids and his wife are victims in this case too.
I just thought there's a lot of kids here that
also aren't present in the courtroom, that are in Afghanistan.
And so I said, when you're thinking about Bail's two kids,
I also want you to think about the forty two
kids in Afghanistan who are either killed, injured, or lost
the primary caregiver. And when the judge read the verdict,
(04:19):
I could hear them crying, like I turn them look back.
I mean, these are these guys are not only asking
their Pashtune males like you don't cry, and these guys
are crying. There wasn't joy, but there was relief. Again
like I have never been around.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Moors perceived the Afghans response to the sentencing is positive,
but hearing from Haji Mohammad Naim, one of the Pashtuon
males in the gallery that day, it was clear that
their feelings were mixed.
Speaker 5 (04:52):
When the decision was issued and the criminal is sentenced
to life imprisonment, the criminal's family started out and crying.
I asked the interpreter, why are they screaming and crying?
He said, Bales was found guilty and sentenced to life
in prison. That's why they cried. I said that this
(05:14):
person took away our family members, away from us forever,
and now that he has been sentenced to life imprisonment.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
They are crying.
Speaker 5 (05:24):
They can go and see him every day. This person
made sixteen of US martyrs.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Haji Mohammed Wazir agrees with his fellow Afghan.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
In the presence of the international media, I said that
I want the.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Execution of Robert Bales.
Speaker 5 (05:46):
I said that we do not accept this sentence. We
want a trial in our own country that takes place
under the shadow of our Islamic law.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Before bail shipped off to Fort Leavenworth Military Prison, John
Henry Brown had one final meeting with his client.
Speaker 6 (06:05):
That was a.
Speaker 7 (06:05):
Cheerful session I had with Bobbie after everybody else left. Yeah,
he's wearing his dress uniform and those of the uniforms
are really nice actually, and I need change into his
prisoner out there.
Speaker 6 (06:17):
But he was emotional.
Speaker 7 (06:20):
You know, how can this happen to me?
Speaker 4 (06:25):
It was just a bad day. That was one of
those things where you know he didn't really have time.
You know, we talked about it before, where you don't
really have time to think about it at the time
that things are happening. It's afterwards that those kind of
ring a little bit deeper, a little bit worse.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Since he received a life sentence in twenty thirteen, staff
Sergeant Robert Bales has spent just about every waking in
a prison cell. According to his wife Carrie, Bob manages
to keep himself busy.
Speaker 8 (07:07):
He did get his bachelor's degree and he's working on
his master's degree in organizational psychology.
Speaker 6 (07:14):
I think is what it is.
Speaker 8 (07:16):
He's very, very into being physically fit. He does cross
fit and works out and eats properly and does all
of that. He's a routine for him and it helps
him mentally and physically. Never in gold moment. He's always busy.
He's always doing something. He's always thinking of, you know,
what's next, how can he help the kids?
Speaker 1 (07:37):
How can he help me?
Speaker 9 (07:39):
But I think he has a lot of tough day.
I think, well, I'd like to say, you know, it's
me and the cans that keep him going, but I don't.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
That only goes so far, Carrie has done everything in
her power to maintain some sense of normalcy within the
Bales family unit. That includes moving her family from Washington
to Kansas so that her children, Quincy and Bobby Junior,
can live close to their father.
Speaker 9 (08:09):
The first job I applied for I got and they helped.
They pay for us to move out here, and we've
just sort of.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Thrived and we love being near Bob.
Speaker 6 (08:18):
It just feels like it's the right place to be
and we never.
Speaker 8 (08:21):
Have to deal with that.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Oh my gosh, we only.
Speaker 5 (08:23):
Have one more visit.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
You know, when are we going to see Daddy again?
Speaker 8 (08:27):
My poor sister always wonders, when are you moving back?
Speaker 1 (08:30):
I'm not, I'm not. We're here.
Speaker 6 (08:32):
This is it.
Speaker 9 (08:32):
Family is where you.
Speaker 7 (08:33):
Make it right.
Speaker 9 (08:35):
The kids, Quincy and.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Bobby were three years apart.
Speaker 9 (08:39):
You think that they are maturing now that We've always
been upfront with them about Look.
Speaker 10 (08:44):
What questions do you have?
Speaker 8 (08:45):
And we were very thoughtful about how we presented why
is daddy here?
Speaker 1 (08:50):
What happened?
Speaker 10 (08:52):
That's something though, that I appreciate, is that my mom
never took me away from my dad and he's always
been involved in my life.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Bob and Carrey's teenage daughter Quincy spoke to our producers
about how she and her family managed this atypical arrangement.
Speaker 10 (09:07):
We don't look like a normal family, so people looking in,
but we have the same I think dynamic as a
normal family. The co parenting, I think is just different.
It's unconventional in the way you look at it. But
they're still like parents. Of course, my dad can't be
involved physically, like he's not at home and I don't
(09:28):
wake up seeing him every morning, and I don't come
home from school seeing him every single day. But we
can talk on the phone and we do every single day.
We talk about everything. The big thing that both my
parents betray is they're always very, very positive. Of course,
our situation leaves room for being negative. But he's always
(09:50):
taught that just because you have it bad, it doesn't
mean somebody else doesn't have it worse, and so you
always have to look up and keep pushing. And my dad,
I family always comes first and is always one of
his top pillars in life.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Maintaining your presence in his family's lives is at the
top of Bail's agenda in the day to day, but
he's also working on his long term plans, namely appealing
his sentence and someday earning the chance to go home
to his wife and kids. It's an unlikely goal, but
Baals has nothing but time to work out a strategy.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
Whatever we can do to make as much stink, to
make as much notification.
Speaker 6 (10:37):
As this, we need to do it. Being quiet doesn't work.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Being quiet get you a thirty five year prison sentence
and by the time I get out of here, my
kids are adults.
Speaker 6 (10:47):
I mean, that's what we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Bales has been working with John Mayer on various appeals
since twenty fifteen. They meet several times a year to
discuss his case. A former Army officer himself, mar is
really the go to attorney for convicted war criminals. His
firm's website is Lawyers Defending Warriors dot com.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Mindful of all that passion, mindful of all the legitimacy
of everything you just said, Bob, you're going to get
into sentence I hearing, or they're going to reassess the sentence.
It can be awfully hard for them. Not that I
don't want to put pie in the sky, set up
a balloon that come down a bulling ball, but the
error is so plain and prejudicial.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
We gotta be bold, We got to come out, We
got to say, you know, how could Bales do this?
How could he go out and kill women and children?
How could I not go out and try to stop
somebody from putting in an ied How many times do
I go back and sit on my rock and try
my back porch, drink myself into a stupor, knowing that
I maybe could have stopped something that didn't happen. How
many times do we let Americans die when we know
(11:43):
where the bad guys are and we don't go at them.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
You've heard a lot about Robert Bale's mindset during his
deployment to Afghanistan. In fact, Baiale's mental state can be
attributed directly to his training in the start of the
Iraq War in two thousand and three.
Speaker 11 (12:07):
Our nation enters this conflict reluctantly. Yet our purpose is
sure the people of the United States and our friends
and allies will not live at the mercy of an
outlaw regime that threatens the peace.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
With weapons of mass murder.
Speaker 11 (12:23):
Now that conflict has come, the only way to limit
its duration is to apply decisive force.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
In President Bush's official announcement to the world that the
United States would be invading Iraq. He alludes to what
would become the nation's unofficial strategy, shock and all or
to use the commander in chiefs language, decisive force to
overwhelm the enemy.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
The job of the infantry is very simply. You want
to find, fix, and finish the enemy. You know, it
hasn't ever changed. I mean the weapons have changed, the
techniques have somewhat changed, but the idea is you're gonna
kill the enemy in close combat.
Speaker 6 (13:09):
We kill people for a living.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
For the average member of the infantry, this meant that
they were going to be expected to kill Iraqi soldiers
on site, something Bails learned during basic training.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
I'm not trying to talk negative of the army, but
this is what the infantry does. For example, the one
that I always used was from sniper's school. Right, the
instructor comes in, older guy comes in from day one,
He's like, why do you want to be a sniper,
And so everybody has some answer that people want to hear, right,
like oh, you know, I want to be a force
(13:42):
multiplier on a battlefield, or you know, I want to
make sure I save my buddies and he's like, you're
all a bunch of fucking liars. There's only one reason
you want to be a sniper, and that's to see
the Red Mist.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Bail spent his first two deployment in a Rock fighting
under shock and all guidelines, finding, fixing, and finishing the enemy.
By the time his third tour came around in two
thousand and nine, the army's mission had changed. The Iraq
War was drawing on longer than anyone had hoped. Obama
had taken over for Bush, and the US was pivoting
its approach to something called counterinsurgency, using the military to
(14:22):
improve a Rock's infrastructure and empower small communities, winning hearts
and minds. From Robert Bales's point of view, this was
a questionable new strategy.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
We didn't really even comprehend the difference in the mission until.
Speaker 6 (14:36):
We're on the ground. Iraq is now.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
Very docile compared to what it was in two thousand
and six and seven, and so the mission had shifted
to try.
Speaker 6 (14:47):
To really rebuild this area.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
So we're doing a lot of these micro grant programs
which you would find business owners. So there's a lady
that wants to build a dress shop. So you know,
we grant her like thirty five hundred dollars to make
a dress shop. The problem with this was that we
knew a lot of this money went back to conducting
(15:11):
terrorist operations. You know, I think we would all like
to say that, you know, if we give this food
to family, that family's going to be fed for thirty days.
But the truth is we just made that family a target.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Bails take about the unintended consequences of counterinsurgency is supported.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
By Soldier X.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
The man from VSB Bellumbine will not be identified here.
Speaker 12 (15:35):
At that time, there was a new administration. They're trying
different tactics on how to engage with the local populations
and instead of being aggressive and going and solving the
issue and not menterally, they try to do the whole
hearts and minds and see if we can essentially buy
their love. I mean, was it worth trying?
Speaker 6 (15:54):
Sure?
Speaker 12 (15:54):
Maybe as we're trying, but I think we should have
maybe recalked and win a different direction. Not Creed Ferdada
wasn't good. So in those incidents, Veils I think probably
was pretty frustrated. As a leader. We're trained to be aggressive,
we're trained to do those things the whole you know,
give it out money and give it out hordes of food.
(16:14):
You knows, not our wheelhouse.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
As March.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Bob Bale's Ford Deployment Afghanistan twenty twelve, it's another counterinsurgency mission.
The soldiers at VSP Bellaby can't proactively confront the enemy,
in large part because the Taliban intentionally blended in with
the civilian population. John Mayer explains, there's.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
No uniforms in Afghanistan, so no opponents or no enemy,
or no fighter who's going to be against you is
going to be wearing his uniform. They blend in with
the population and it's a guerrilla war. So the challenge
for American soldiers is the idea, how do you know
who you're talking with?
Speaker 2 (17:05):
By hiding among the locals, the Taliban puts American forces
at a disadvantage. Unidentified Afghans are supposed to be presumed innocent.
It's a philosophy that requires American troops to be reactive,
not proactive.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Here's J.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Moore's So generally, if you are in a declared war,
you can use a lethal force against somebody on the
opposing force. Anytime you can sneak into their barracks room
and kill them while they sleep. If you see a
guy in the woods taking a bathroom break and his
weapons away from him, you can shoot that guy. What
you can't do is destroy things that are civilian objects
(17:45):
or cause intentional harm to civilians. If you know that
you're going to cause some sort of civilian harm or
civilian damage, there has to be some sort of military
necessity to take out that particular parted.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
In twenty twelve, Stab Sergeant Robert Bailee as a combat
venter who's been conditioned to kill the enemy. Ten years
into his service in a highly kinetic area, his orders
are to sit tight and wait to be engaged before
firing back at the enemy. It's a different approach that
takes them getting used to.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
It's the anticipation of death, probably way worse than the
death itself.
Speaker 6 (18:20):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (18:21):
I haven't died, so I can't really say that. But
you know that waiting for something to happen is terrible,
you know.
Speaker 12 (18:30):
What I mean?
Speaker 4 (18:31):
You know something's coming, in that anticipation of whatever's coming
is what.
Speaker 6 (18:36):
Makes you paranoid.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
I guess What's more, Bales feels confident that he knows
the location of undercovered Taliban operatives. Remember one of the
houses that he targeted that night, belonging to Haji Wazir,
had just been found to contain over one hundred pounds
of bomb making materials.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
The twenty fourth of February, we're conducting a patrol. We
came upon a command wired ied. The command wired ied
ended up being one hundred and sixty pounds of explosives.
You know, it was a pretty big deal that command
wired led back to Wazir's holme. Haji Wazir, as you know,
is the gentleman who came to the United States and
(19:15):
testified against me as prosecution witness number twelve. And he's
the gentleman with the Taliban fighter tattoo on his right hand.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
These supposed Taliban ties are a big part of Robert
Bales's efforts to clear his name. In his eyes, if
the public knew that he actually killed Taliban members on
the night of March eleventh, twenty twelve, it could have
changed everything.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
I feel like I cave during the trial because I
there was this information that wasn't out there that would
have changed the idea of me taking a plea deal.
I would have never taken a plea deal. I'll go
and we'll let the pieces fall where they fall. But
at least I go in and say, look, these people
had conducted terry activity from these locations before. I don't
(20:02):
think you would put people in your house where you
made your explosives that you were going to go kill
people with. I wouldn't as a father. I don't think
most fathers would put their family in a situation like that. Now,
it doesn't excuse what I did, and I'm not trying
to do that. I'm just saying it would have been
nice to have had the truth all the way through
(20:23):
on both sides.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
To be clear, Afghan women and children are not eligible
to join the Taliban. But if Bales is right and
he actually did kill Taliban, the paradigm changes. Even Lieutenant
Colonel Morse can attest that sometimes for the US military,
the death of civilians can be viewed as unfortunate but
necessary collateral damage.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Commanders are facing those decisions every day, and it's sort
of most visceral format. That might be a drone strike
on a car with a terrorist leader in it, and
he's also got his wife and two kids in the car.
The commander has decided whether or not he's causing unnecessary
harm by firing.
Speaker 6 (21:03):
On that target.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
As Bales carries out his life sentence, he can't help
and ask whether American drone operators are guilty of the
same crimes as he is, without suffering the same consequences.
Speaker 6 (21:14):
I looked it upon Wikipedia.
Speaker 4 (21:16):
The civilian casualties thirty one thousand in Afghanistan up to
twenty sixteen, according to the US government.
Speaker 6 (21:24):
I didn't intend to go.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
Out and kill civilians the same way that the people
that are sitting in Arizona or Nevada who drop from
the drone don't intend to kill civilians, But yet it
happens the end result comes out to the same. So
why are they not sitting in here with me?
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Whether targety drone strikes on innocent civilians are moral, well,
that's certainly a conundrum. But with the prior authorization they
are legal, and by Baales's logic, sanctioned drone strikes and
imprompting night raids, essentially they're one and the same. Drafting
off this line of thinking, let's probe whether Baales's hypothesis
(22:12):
is true. Did he find, fix and finish the enemy
that night. We know about the one hundred and sixty
pounds of explosives in Hadji Wazir's house. Now what about
this Taliban tattoo.
Speaker 4 (22:31):
We found a picture of Haji Wazir online who had
made a terrorist video. And on the video, the man
has a cross swords tattoo. It's on his right hand.
And during the video and he's talking about, you know,
called the Candahar massacre. You know, he's talking about this,
(22:51):
but the whole time he's holding up his terrorist tattoo,
his Taliban tattoo. Why was he doing that? Because it's
a recruiting video. That wasn't a fresh tattoo. He didn't
get that after he got that way before.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
And we knew that John Henry Brown wasn't convinced by
Wazir's supposed rationale for getting the tattoo.
Speaker 7 (23:16):
An older gentleman actually had a tattoo on his hand,
which I knew because I read one of those books
that there and he puts out of things you'd look
forward to identify Taliban. And when I.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Said, well, what's that on your hand?
Speaker 7 (23:28):
Because oh, a tattoo? And I said, wait, something not
a Taliban tattoo? No, No, I knew it to oppress
the girls.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
That's two instances of circumstantial evidence against Haji Wazir IED's
in his house and a tattoo on his hand had
the flashing lights that Bail saw the night before the attacks,
and perhaps a pattern begins to form. However, the Bail's
camps strongest point lies with the US military's database on
(23:56):
Taliban members in a system called bats and Hides, which
Robert Bales and his attorney John Mayer know, well, how many.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Times did you enroll guys with bats or hides?
Speaker 12 (24:09):
Daily?
Speaker 6 (24:11):
Multiple times daily?
Speaker 4 (24:13):
For example, Let's say I take a guy down right now,
and I don't have the access to the information that
he's a bad guy. I can tell right away that
he's a bad guy because I can directly link back
to that database. Sure, sure, so you know again, it's
it's a handheld device. It looks almost like an old
school Pom pilot. So you'd basically find a person that
(24:36):
you want to enroll. The reason you'd want to enroll
and is, let's say he happened to be around an
ID site when something goes off, so you ask him
to come over and you know, fingerprint them. You know,
do the biometric data, and I basically ask him who
you are, what village you're from, you know, who's what's
your family name? Now, normally they're gonna lie to you
norm or it's not gonna translate correctly. So we never
(24:58):
really put a lot of faith in the information told us.
But then we would get a retinal scan, usually do
a fingerprint and some other type of match. So I
would take one device, playing it up to the computer,
enter that information. The information went into a main database
and it comes back and it tells you, Hey, that
guy that you had detained today, he is wanted for X,
Y and Z.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
You have to make the treator on the ground as
a guy who directly used this stuff, you as a
sergeant and your soldiers.
Speaker 6 (25:25):
Was it reliable? One hundred percent reliable?
Speaker 4 (25:29):
The Bats and Hides information was always you know, in
my opinion, it's always been good.
Speaker 12 (25:34):
You know.
Speaker 6 (25:34):
How do you argue DNA and biometric data.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
In his interview, John Maher backs up his client's assertion
that the data collected from Bats and Hides is almost unassailable.
He believes this because his colleague, biometrics expert Bill Carney,
has drawn this conclusion from his findings in the field.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Bill Kearney, I trust his work implicitly. If we come
across a d site where we're gonna have explosive ordinance,
you know, d come up there and diffuse it, or
after the bomb goes off, we pick up all the
forensic tidbits and then we run it fingerprints, because that
terrorist is not gonna wear gloves when he twists the wires,
(26:18):
and that's gonna leave his skin on there. Most of
the time, it leaves this perspiration on there. Sometimes it
leaves blood on there, and it leaves fingerprints. Fingerprints in
DNA are over one hundred years old. Though, if we
can begin to enroll folks and then identify who they are,
(26:39):
then we're able to delineate and discern who's opponent and
who's not.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Bill Carney declined to participate in this podcast. Samar and
Bales relay his findings on the biometric evidence he found
on the Appian victims.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Of the Afghan witnesses left their fingerprints in DNA at
great co ordinates on bomb parts nied parts. Four of
them left their fingerprints.
Speaker 6 (27:11):
Prosecution witness number five, Rafaula. Rafaula is the young boy was.
Speaker 4 (27:17):
Involved in the biometric system on nine March twenty thirteen.
The first prosecution witness, Mula Baran, was enrolled in biometric
system on twenty two May two thousand and nine.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
I have a letter here from the detention facility in
part one, and they believe that Mula Baran, witness number
one was a ten from the coalition.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
You've heard the voices of Mulla Baran and Rafaula in
earlier episodes. Both of their names came up during a
scrub bats and Hines. Baran was also at one point
detained in that in jail. What's more, Baals defense team
learned this through their own legwork, not from the military's records.
(27:58):
For Jay Morse in the prosecution.
Speaker 7 (28:02):
The farmers that they brought from Afghanistan to testify, we
were never told that these young people were clearly Taliban,
which I think would have made a difference if we'd
been told that, But we never found out out till
the end of the whole procedure.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
By all accounts, John Henry Brown inquired about whether all
of Bale's victims were simple farmers, but the powers that
be made it clear that the AFGHANSI testified were not
on trial Colonel Morris.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
He gets up and he says, the State Department informed
us that Muli Barrian might have been a detainee at
the detention facility in Parwan. But then the judge says,
I'm not going to make a congressional case about this challenge.
Defense should have been jumping up and down.
Speaker 7 (28:53):
They were not forthcoming with the defense. And there's this
big safe in our office at JBLM.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
JBLM is Joint Base Lewis McCord where the trial took place.
Speaker 7 (29:05):
And I asked one of the people I won't mention
because I'm not get him in trouble. I said, well,
what's it there? And they said, well, that's all the
stuff that you're not supposed to see. And I said, well,
is there anything in there that I should know about?
And he goes no.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
It can't have a guy got away for life or
plead guilty without making sure that the government of the
United States has shared all the exonerating evidence. Prosecutor Jane
Morris stand bright in the court. Well, the State Department says,
they're not going to turn him over to us, What
(29:40):
fuck go get him? Bob's police should never been taken
until a complete forensic criminal investigation was completed in a
wild Because the bodies were taken away and burned and
buried and disposed of. Was Bob's team able to get
the police reports on whether the forensics matched. Something as
simple as that never happened.
Speaker 4 (30:01):
They weren't allowed to ask Mula Baran if he was
a member of a terrorist organization. Our government wouldn't let
us ask that question. We know that Mulla Baran was
held at some detention center hadju Wazir.
Speaker 6 (30:12):
You can't ask him if he's a terrorist.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
Oh really, So the Taliban tattoo on his right hand
doesn't mean anything to you, even though it's documented in
the US Army Book of Symbols. There's a Taliban tattoo.
You know it is, and you can't ask for that question.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Here's the last piece of the puzzle for this dilemma
posed by Bails in his defense. Not only were the
Afghan victims part of the Taliban. Not only did those
Taliban connections go uninvestigated, but those same Afghans were flown
to America on commercial airlines.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
The United States flew twelve Afghan civilians into the United
States into Atlanta, Georgia, with the American flying public. They
were under fake social security numbers, fake passports, fake work visas,
they were held out as government contractors, and then they
(31:05):
were on Delta Airlines was truly innocent American flying public
to Seattle.
Speaker 4 (31:11):
How would you feel if you were on this flight
from Atlanta, Georgia to Seattle, Washington at eight twenty am
on August eighteen, twenty thirteen. How would you feel about
riding next to a.
Speaker 6 (31:25):
Guy there was a bomb maker?
Speaker 4 (31:27):
You feel comfortable flying on Delta Airlines flight eighteen eighty four.
You're flying and coach, You're sitting next to Mula Baran
who's been detained at Parwan form building bombs.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Perhaps you can see what marn Bales are getting at
with this. After all, the global war and tear began
with a couple of extremists taking control of passenger planes.
Furthering your point, when the Afghans arrived in the US
to testify they were afforded a fair number of American luxuries.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
We take them to the SeaWorld, right, That's what our
government did. They took them to SeaWorld.
Speaker 7 (32:05):
They took them to Disneyland, for God's sake, you know,
the prosecutors in civilian cases usually don't take their witnesses
to Disneyland. They obviously had new clothes that were very nice,
you know, Afghan style, but clearly high quality stuff.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Do you think that had an effect on their testimony?
Speaker 6 (32:25):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Bales, mar and Brown are presenting a narrative of the
events that runs counter to what was depicted by the
government in the media. For John Maher, the potential emission
of evidence in mitigating circumstances is a big reason why
Robert Bales serve as a new trial.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
I'd like to repeat what John Henry Brown said, the
fingerprints I wish I would have had, It would have
been a wholly different show. But if you can't find
that evidence because your countrymen kept it from you, what
are you gonna do?
Speaker 2 (33:08):
For Bales himself? This unearth intel goes even further at
a personal level. It can clear its name by revealing
his true motivation for leaving the VSP on March eleventh,
twenty twelve.
Speaker 6 (33:23):
If I want to walk in and kill everybody, why
not just go in and kill everybody? Why not in
the first village go in and kill everybody?
Speaker 4 (33:31):
Because that wasn't what the attempt was The attempt was
to try to stop people from putting in IDs. Naja
being Alcozi. These are not innocent locations to begin with.
Speaker 6 (33:44):
We have the evidence. Your wife is a Tall.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
That's the name of the journalist who interviewed six Afghans
from Alakozai and Najabien on behalf of our production. Attall
currently lives in Afghanistan, which is to say he lives
under Taliban rule. It's important to mention this before we
tell you that A Tall asked each Afghan participant whether
they in twenty twelve were actively working in service of
(34:15):
an enemy of the United States. Here's a Tall speaking
to Mulla Baran, the man who was once held in
a detention facility.
Speaker 13 (34:28):
Robert Bales claims that he wanted to kill Taliban the
night he entered your brother's house. Was any member of
your family in the Taliban or was your brother connected
to the Taliban?
Speaker 5 (34:39):
The claim of Robert Bales is one percent false. In
this age of technology, the Americans have equipment that can
distinguish civilians from non civilians. This was an intentional act.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Hadji Wazir is the patriarch who lost eleven family members
who suppose has the Taliban tattoo at all asked him
the same question.
Speaker 13 (35:07):
Robert Bales claims that he wanted to kill Taliban. Then
was any member of your family in the Taliban?
Speaker 5 (35:13):
No, nobody in our family was in the Taliban, nor
did we cooperate with them. Most of my family were
miners less than fifteen years old. Robert Bales has no
evidence against me in this case.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Rafiola was around fifteen years old in twenty twelve. According
to Bales, his prints came up in the Bats and
Hide system one year after the attack.
Speaker 12 (35:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (35:38):
Right, We had no interest in the Taliban. My family
members were farmers. We farmed domestic animals. We want to
live in our country and be calm. It doesn't matter
what government it is, as long as there is peace
and security so that we could be happy in our lives.
Speaker 13 (36:02):
What other effects did this incident have on your life?
Do you still have the same angers?
Speaker 5 (36:12):
I myself were shot in my legs. Now these parts
of my body heard at night. When I think about
this and I look at my sister who is now paralyzed,
my emotions increase. We want to tell the world that
after this incident, no help was given to us. They
(36:32):
have not paid any attention to us. We asked the
world to help us to treat our wounded, continue to
help the families of the martyrs.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
About six weeks after our production interviewed Rafula, one of
our contacts, Leila ahmed Zai, informed us that he had
tragically passed away in a swimming accident.
Speaker 6 (36:54):
That's all we know. One thing is clear.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
The Afghans who spoke with a Tall categorically denied Bales's
assertions that they were enemy and sergeants ten years ago.
But a tragedy like this one, such devastation, has the
potential to change allegiances. After nine to eleven, many Americans
decided that Al Qaeda in Afghanistan were our new enemies.
Perhaps the Kanahar masker had similar effect on the villagers
(37:22):
of the Panjwei region, after all, Nowadays, Mulla Baran approves
of the Taliban government, but the Tanyan.
Speaker 5 (37:31):
We like the Islamic Emirate. You may ask why I
say that all the people of Afghanistan have been burning
in the fire of war for forty years. Now, there
is one hundred percent security in Afghanistan. The wealth and
honor of all people are protected in it the voice
of a poor man is heard. The Islamic Emirate is
(37:54):
good not only for you and me, but for all people.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Mulla Baran's news is named hick Matula. He's about nineteen
years old here. Up until the withdrawal in late summer
of twenty twenty one, hick Matula had spent his entire
life under American occupation. His poignant perspective says a lot.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
The Reithims minder.
Speaker 5 (38:18):
The presence of the Taliban was very low when I
was young. We didn't even see them once a week. Yeah,
no one in our family was a member of the Taliban.
But after the incident, we became Taliban tedder will you
now we are with the Taliban.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Coming up on the war within.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
We found no evidence that any of these guys were Taliban.
Speaker 6 (38:47):
These are non combatants. They're unarmed. You hunted them down
and you shot them.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Bales was in one of the houses and the kits
smashed him in the head with a shovel.
Speaker 13 (38:56):
A traumatic brain injury can happen when they're is an
external force to the head, face, or neck.
Speaker 6 (39:06):
I call it an invisible disability looking back, and I
think I had a few concussions.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Bill's is not looking to be portrayed as a victim.
Speaker 6 (39:16):
I should have gotten some help.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
The War Within the Robert Bailes Story is production of
Bungalow Media and Entertainment, Checkpoint Productions and Mosquito Park Pictures
in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The series was created by
executive producers Paul Polowski and David check Executive producers form
Bungalow Media and Entertainment are Robert Friedman and Mike Powers.
(39:47):
The podcast was written and produced by Max Nelson and
hosted by me Mike McGinnis. Editing was done by Anna Hoberman,
sound design and mix by John Gardner. Teddy Gannon was
an archival. Leila Ahmadzai was an associate producer, and Peter
Solatarov was production assistant. Special thanks to Liz Yell Marsh,
(40:09):
Nicole Rubin, Marcy Barkain, Zach Burpee, and Meerwi Satal, as
well as all of the people who are interviewed for
the podcast. Listen and subscribe to The War Within on
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your
podcast
John Henry Brown fought his ass off. He had used
everything he had through it before he entered the plee.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
John Meyer is the attorney that currently represents staff Sergeant
Robert Bales. Mar makes it clear that he respects the
lawyer who preceded him and.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
John Henry Brown. I think to his credit, he hung
up his cleats, if you will, when a death penalty
came off the table. I believe in his soul and
his country said, hey, I saved the guy's life. It's
undoubted that he shot and killed these people. We're seeking
a death penalty. We saved his life. John Henry Brown
also did something that to me is the hallmark of
(00:39):
a probe. He says, listen, fellas, my apologies. I'm embarrassed.
The two things, the two points that could have exonerated
or changed the whole thing in this case, I missed him.
If you need to throw me under the bus and
blame me, do it.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Previously, the war within.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
A case like Bales was a criminal investigation from the
very beginning.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
They're gonna give me the capital punishment. I thought I
was doing the right thing.
Speaker 5 (01:10):
It's pretty clear what happened in Bales is behind bars
where he should be.
Speaker 6 (01:14):
This is vesp ballimpy.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
It's a big fuck you to the Taliban. This is
their home.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
When I got out there, even the prosecution attests to
I'm asking for the Kailid.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
The u cmchange. They're gonna protect the army and at
the end of the day, see the army used a client.
Speaker 6 (01:29):
I'm punished.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
I know what I'm missing, my kids here without their father.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
This is the war within the Robert Bayles story. In
June of twenty thirteen, Robert Bales played guilty to the
unauthorized murder of sixteen Afghan civilians. His fate was the
result of a deal made with lead prosecutor Jaye Morse.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
When they came to us and said, what's it gonna
take to get death penalty off the table? To me,
it was well, that was my plan. We had been
doing things correctly. We presented a strong case, We had
the evidence.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
How did you feel when he pled guilty? Like you
go through this case, You've been on it for a
year and a half. What were your personal feelings when
that plea came in.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
I knew this is the most important thing I will
ever do in my professional life.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
On the side of the defense attorney John Henry Brown
hoped that a guilty plea would give his client a
chance at the best possible sentence.
Speaker 7 (02:33):
We felt it was a long shot that we would
get life with parole. Of course, being the eternal optimist,
thought the least they should do for Bobby was to
give him life with parole.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Two months later, on August twenty third, Bales would be
given life in Fort Leavenworth's military prison, no parole.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Brown was with him when it happened.
Speaker 7 (02:58):
It took him a long while to grasp the reality
of what a horrific situation he was really in. I
think he was a traditional soldier in the way that
he felt that the superiors would back him and not
turn against him. Of course, that's not excusing what he did.
(03:21):
There's no excuse.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
During the sentencing hearing, Morse did what he could to
close the door on any potential sympathy for the defendant.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
I knew that he was going to ask for mercy,
He's going to ask for leniencine. But I was also
sure that he was going to ask the panel to
think about his kids. He had two kids, and I
just thought that this goes back to this whole idea
of trying to personalize the victims. I mean, I want
the jury to have sympathy for Bail's kids like his
(03:53):
Bail's kids and his wife are victims in this case too.
I just thought there's a lot of kids here that
also aren't present in the courtroom, that are in Afghanistan.
And so I said, when you're thinking about Bail's two kids,
I also want you to think about the forty two
kids in Afghanistan who are either killed, injured, or lost
the primary caregiver. And when the judge read the verdict,
(04:19):
I could hear them crying, like I turn them look back.
I mean, these are these guys are not only asking
their Pashtune males like you don't cry, and these guys
are crying. There wasn't joy, but there was relief. Again
like I have never been around.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Moors perceived the Afghans response to the sentencing is positive,
but hearing from Haji Mohammad Naim, one of the Pashtuon
males in the gallery that day, it was clear that
their feelings were mixed.
Speaker 5 (04:52):
When the decision was issued and the criminal is sentenced
to life imprisonment, the criminal's family started out and crying.
I asked the interpreter, why are they screaming and crying?
He said, Bales was found guilty and sentenced to life
in prison. That's why they cried. I said that this
(05:14):
person took away our family members, away from us forever,
and now that he has been sentenced to life imprisonment.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
They are crying.
Speaker 5 (05:24):
They can go and see him every day. This person
made sixteen of US martyrs.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Haji Mohammed Wazir agrees with his fellow Afghan.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
In the presence of the international media, I said that
I want the.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Execution of Robert Bales.
Speaker 5 (05:46):
I said that we do not accept this sentence. We
want a trial in our own country that takes place
under the shadow of our Islamic law.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Before bail shipped off to Fort Leavenworth Military Prison, John
Henry Brown had one final meeting with his client.
Speaker 6 (06:05):
That was a.
Speaker 7 (06:05):
Cheerful session I had with Bobbie after everybody else left. Yeah,
he's wearing his dress uniform and those of the uniforms
are really nice actually, and I need change into his
prisoner out there.
Speaker 6 (06:17):
But he was emotional.
Speaker 7 (06:20):
You know, how can this happen to me?
Speaker 4 (06:25):
It was just a bad day. That was one of
those things where you know he didn't really have time.
You know, we talked about it before, where you don't
really have time to think about it at the time
that things are happening. It's afterwards that those kind of
ring a little bit deeper, a little bit worse.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Since he received a life sentence in twenty thirteen, staff
Sergeant Robert Bales has spent just about every waking in
a prison cell. According to his wife Carrie, Bob manages
to keep himself busy.
Speaker 8 (07:07):
He did get his bachelor's degree and he's working on
his master's degree in organizational psychology.
Speaker 6 (07:14):
I think is what it is.
Speaker 8 (07:16):
He's very, very into being physically fit. He does cross
fit and works out and eats properly and does all
of that. He's a routine for him and it helps
him mentally and physically. Never in gold moment. He's always busy.
He's always doing something. He's always thinking of, you know,
what's next, how can he help the kids?
Speaker 1 (07:37):
How can he help me?
Speaker 9 (07:39):
But I think he has a lot of tough day.
I think, well, I'd like to say, you know, it's
me and the cans that keep him going, but I don't.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
That only goes so far, Carrie has done everything in
her power to maintain some sense of normalcy within the
Bales family unit. That includes moving her family from Washington
to Kansas so that her children, Quincy and Bobby Junior,
can live close to their father.
Speaker 9 (08:09):
The first job I applied for I got and they helped.
They pay for us to move out here, and we've
just sort of.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Thrived and we love being near Bob.
Speaker 6 (08:18):
It just feels like it's the right place to be
and we never.
Speaker 8 (08:21):
Have to deal with that.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Oh my gosh, we only.
Speaker 5 (08:23):
Have one more visit.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
You know, when are we going to see Daddy again?
Speaker 8 (08:27):
My poor sister always wonders, when are you moving back?
Speaker 1 (08:30):
I'm not, I'm not. We're here.
Speaker 6 (08:32):
This is it.
Speaker 9 (08:32):
Family is where you.
Speaker 7 (08:33):
Make it right.
Speaker 9 (08:35):
The kids, Quincy and.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Bobby were three years apart.
Speaker 9 (08:39):
You think that they are maturing now that We've always
been upfront with them about Look.
Speaker 10 (08:44):
What questions do you have?
Speaker 8 (08:45):
And we were very thoughtful about how we presented why
is daddy here?
Speaker 1 (08:50):
What happened?
Speaker 10 (08:52):
That's something though, that I appreciate, is that my mom
never took me away from my dad and he's always
been involved in my life.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Bob and Carrey's teenage daughter Quincy spoke to our producers
about how she and her family managed this atypical arrangement.
Speaker 10 (09:07):
We don't look like a normal family, so people looking in,
but we have the same I think dynamic as a
normal family. The co parenting, I think is just different.
It's unconventional in the way you look at it. But
they're still like parents. Of course, my dad can't be
involved physically, like he's not at home and I don't
(09:28):
wake up seeing him every morning, and I don't come
home from school seeing him every single day. But we
can talk on the phone and we do every single day.
We talk about everything. The big thing that both my
parents betray is they're always very, very positive. Of course,
our situation leaves room for being negative. But he's always
(09:50):
taught that just because you have it bad, it doesn't
mean somebody else doesn't have it worse, and so you
always have to look up and keep pushing. And my dad,
I family always comes first and is always one of
his top pillars in life.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Maintaining your presence in his family's lives is at the
top of Bail's agenda in the day to day, but
he's also working on his long term plans, namely appealing
his sentence and someday earning the chance to go home
to his wife and kids. It's an unlikely goal, but
Baals has nothing but time to work out a strategy.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
Whatever we can do to make as much stink, to
make as much notification.
Speaker 6 (10:37):
As this, we need to do it. Being quiet doesn't work.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Being quiet get you a thirty five year prison sentence
and by the time I get out of here, my
kids are adults.
Speaker 6 (10:47):
I mean, that's what we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Bales has been working with John Mayer on various appeals
since twenty fifteen. They meet several times a year to
discuss his case. A former Army officer himself, mar is
really the go to attorney for convicted war criminals. His
firm's website is Lawyers Defending Warriors dot com.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Mindful of all that passion, mindful of all the legitimacy
of everything you just said, Bob, you're going to get
into sentence I hearing, or they're going to reassess the sentence.
It can be awfully hard for them. Not that I
don't want to put pie in the sky, set up
a balloon that come down a bulling ball, but the
error is so plain and prejudicial.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
We gotta be bold, We got to come out, We
got to say, you know, how could Bales do this?
How could he go out and kill women and children?
How could I not go out and try to stop
somebody from putting in an ied How many times do
I go back and sit on my rock and try
my back porch, drink myself into a stupor, knowing that
I maybe could have stopped something that didn't happen. How
many times do we let Americans die when we know
(11:43):
where the bad guys are and we don't go at them.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
You've heard a lot about Robert Bale's mindset during his
deployment to Afghanistan. In fact, Baiale's mental state can be
attributed directly to his training in the start of the
Iraq War in two thousand and three.
Speaker 11 (12:07):
Our nation enters this conflict reluctantly. Yet our purpose is
sure the people of the United States and our friends
and allies will not live at the mercy of an
outlaw regime that threatens the peace.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
With weapons of mass murder.
Speaker 11 (12:23):
Now that conflict has come, the only way to limit
its duration is to apply decisive force.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
In President Bush's official announcement to the world that the
United States would be invading Iraq. He alludes to what
would become the nation's unofficial strategy, shock and all or
to use the commander in chiefs language, decisive force to
overwhelm the enemy.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
The job of the infantry is very simply. You want
to find, fix, and finish the enemy. You know, it
hasn't ever changed. I mean the weapons have changed, the
techniques have somewhat changed, but the idea is you're gonna
kill the enemy in close combat.
Speaker 6 (13:09):
We kill people for a living.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
For the average member of the infantry, this meant that
they were going to be expected to kill Iraqi soldiers
on site, something Bails learned during basic training.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
I'm not trying to talk negative of the army, but
this is what the infantry does. For example, the one
that I always used was from sniper's school. Right, the
instructor comes in, older guy comes in from day one,
He's like, why do you want to be a sniper,
And so everybody has some answer that people want to hear, right,
like oh, you know, I want to be a force
(13:42):
multiplier on a battlefield, or you know, I want to
make sure I save my buddies and he's like, you're
all a bunch of fucking liars. There's only one reason
you want to be a sniper, and that's to see
the Red Mist.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Bail spent his first two deployment in a Rock fighting
under shock and all guidelines, finding, fixing, and finishing the enemy.
By the time his third tour came around in two
thousand and nine, the army's mission had changed. The Iraq
War was drawing on longer than anyone had hoped. Obama
had taken over for Bush, and the US was pivoting
its approach to something called counterinsurgency, using the military to
(14:22):
improve a Rock's infrastructure and empower small communities, winning hearts
and minds. From Robert Bales's point of view, this was
a questionable new strategy.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
We didn't really even comprehend the difference in the mission until.
Speaker 6 (14:36):
We're on the ground. Iraq is now.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
Very docile compared to what it was in two thousand
and six and seven, and so the mission had shifted
to try.
Speaker 6 (14:47):
To really rebuild this area.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
So we're doing a lot of these micro grant programs
which you would find business owners. So there's a lady
that wants to build a dress shop. So you know,
we grant her like thirty five hundred dollars to make
a dress shop. The problem with this was that we
knew a lot of this money went back to conducting
(15:11):
terrorist operations. You know, I think we would all like
to say that, you know, if we give this food
to family, that family's going to be fed for thirty days.
But the truth is we just made that family a target.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Bails take about the unintended consequences of counterinsurgency is supported.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
By Soldier X.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
The man from VSB Bellumbine will not be identified here.
Speaker 12 (15:35):
At that time, there was a new administration. They're trying
different tactics on how to engage with the local populations
and instead of being aggressive and going and solving the
issue and not menterally, they try to do the whole
hearts and minds and see if we can essentially buy
their love. I mean, was it worth trying?
Speaker 6 (15:54):
Sure?
Speaker 12 (15:54):
Maybe as we're trying, but I think we should have
maybe recalked and win a different direction. Not Creed Ferdada
wasn't good. So in those incidents, Veils I think probably
was pretty frustrated. As a leader. We're trained to be aggressive,
we're trained to do those things the whole you know,
give it out money and give it out hordes of food.
(16:14):
You knows, not our wheelhouse.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
As March.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Bob Bale's Ford Deployment Afghanistan twenty twelve, it's another counterinsurgency mission.
The soldiers at VSP Bellaby can't proactively confront the enemy,
in large part because the Taliban intentionally blended in with
the civilian population. John Mayer explains, there's.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
No uniforms in Afghanistan, so no opponents or no enemy,
or no fighter who's going to be against you is
going to be wearing his uniform. They blend in with
the population and it's a guerrilla war. So the challenge
for American soldiers is the idea, how do you know
who you're talking with?
Speaker 2 (17:05):
By hiding among the locals, the Taliban puts American forces
at a disadvantage. Unidentified Afghans are supposed to be presumed innocent.
It's a philosophy that requires American troops to be reactive,
not proactive.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Here's J.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Moore's So generally, if you are in a declared war,
you can use a lethal force against somebody on the
opposing force. Anytime you can sneak into their barracks room
and kill them while they sleep. If you see a
guy in the woods taking a bathroom break and his
weapons away from him, you can shoot that guy. What
you can't do is destroy things that are civilian objects
(17:45):
or cause intentional harm to civilians. If you know that
you're going to cause some sort of civilian harm or
civilian damage, there has to be some sort of military
necessity to take out that particular parted.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
In twenty twelve, Stab Sergeant Robert Bailee as a combat
venter who's been conditioned to kill the enemy. Ten years
into his service in a highly kinetic area, his orders
are to sit tight and wait to be engaged before
firing back at the enemy. It's a different approach that
takes them getting used to.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
It's the anticipation of death, probably way worse than the
death itself.
Speaker 6 (18:20):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (18:21):
I haven't died, so I can't really say that. But
you know that waiting for something to happen is terrible,
you know.
Speaker 12 (18:30):
What I mean?
Speaker 4 (18:31):
You know something's coming, in that anticipation of whatever's coming
is what.
Speaker 6 (18:36):
Makes you paranoid.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
I guess What's more, Bales feels confident that he knows
the location of undercovered Taliban operatives. Remember one of the
houses that he targeted that night, belonging to Haji Wazir,
had just been found to contain over one hundred pounds
of bomb making materials.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
The twenty fourth of February, we're conducting a patrol. We
came upon a command wired ied. The command wired ied
ended up being one hundred and sixty pounds of explosives.
You know, it was a pretty big deal that command
wired led back to Wazir's holme. Haji Wazir, as you know,
is the gentleman who came to the United States and
(19:15):
testified against me as prosecution witness number twelve. And he's
the gentleman with the Taliban fighter tattoo on his right hand.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
These supposed Taliban ties are a big part of Robert
Bales's efforts to clear his name. In his eyes, if
the public knew that he actually killed Taliban members on
the night of March eleventh, twenty twelve, it could have
changed everything.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
I feel like I cave during the trial because I
there was this information that wasn't out there that would
have changed the idea of me taking a plea deal.
I would have never taken a plea deal. I'll go
and we'll let the pieces fall where they fall. But
at least I go in and say, look, these people
had conducted terry activity from these locations before. I don't
(20:02):
think you would put people in your house where you
made your explosives that you were going to go kill
people with. I wouldn't as a father. I don't think
most fathers would put their family in a situation like that. Now,
it doesn't excuse what I did, and I'm not trying
to do that. I'm just saying it would have been
nice to have had the truth all the way through
(20:23):
on both sides.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
To be clear, Afghan women and children are not eligible
to join the Taliban. But if Bales is right and
he actually did kill Taliban, the paradigm changes. Even Lieutenant
Colonel Morse can attest that sometimes for the US military,
the death of civilians can be viewed as unfortunate but
necessary collateral damage.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Commanders are facing those decisions every day, and it's sort
of most visceral format. That might be a drone strike
on a car with a terrorist leader in it, and
he's also got his wife and two kids in the car.
The commander has decided whether or not he's causing unnecessary
harm by firing.
Speaker 6 (21:03):
On that target.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
As Bales carries out his life sentence, he can't help
and ask whether American drone operators are guilty of the
same crimes as he is, without suffering the same consequences.
Speaker 6 (21:14):
I looked it upon Wikipedia.
Speaker 4 (21:16):
The civilian casualties thirty one thousand in Afghanistan up to
twenty sixteen, according to the US government.
Speaker 6 (21:24):
I didn't intend to go.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
Out and kill civilians the same way that the people
that are sitting in Arizona or Nevada who drop from
the drone don't intend to kill civilians, But yet it
happens the end result comes out to the same. So
why are they not sitting in here with me?
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Whether targety drone strikes on innocent civilians are moral, well,
that's certainly a conundrum. But with the prior authorization they
are legal, and by Baales's logic, sanctioned drone strikes and
imprompting night raids, essentially they're one and the same. Drafting
off this line of thinking, let's probe whether Baales's hypothesis
(22:12):
is true. Did he find, fix and finish the enemy
that night. We know about the one hundred and sixty
pounds of explosives in Hadji Wazir's house. Now what about
this Taliban tattoo.
Speaker 4 (22:31):
We found a picture of Haji Wazir online who had
made a terrorist video. And on the video, the man
has a cross swords tattoo. It's on his right hand.
And during the video and he's talking about, you know,
called the Candahar massacre. You know, he's talking about this,
(22:51):
but the whole time he's holding up his terrorist tattoo,
his Taliban tattoo. Why was he doing that? Because it's
a recruiting video. That wasn't a fresh tattoo. He didn't
get that after he got that way before.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
And we knew that John Henry Brown wasn't convinced by
Wazir's supposed rationale for getting the tattoo.
Speaker 7 (23:16):
An older gentleman actually had a tattoo on his hand,
which I knew because I read one of those books
that there and he puts out of things you'd look
forward to identify Taliban. And when I.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Said, well, what's that on your hand?
Speaker 7 (23:28):
Because oh, a tattoo? And I said, wait, something not
a Taliban tattoo? No, No, I knew it to oppress
the girls.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
That's two instances of circumstantial evidence against Haji Wazir IED's
in his house and a tattoo on his hand had
the flashing lights that Bail saw the night before the attacks,
and perhaps a pattern begins to form. However, the Bail's
camps strongest point lies with the US military's database on
(23:56):
Taliban members in a system called bats and Hides, which
Robert Bales and his attorney John Mayer know, well, how many.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Times did you enroll guys with bats or hides?
Speaker 12 (24:09):
Daily?
Speaker 6 (24:11):
Multiple times daily?
Speaker 4 (24:13):
For example, Let's say I take a guy down right now,
and I don't have the access to the information that
he's a bad guy. I can tell right away that
he's a bad guy because I can directly link back
to that database. Sure, sure, so you know again, it's
it's a handheld device. It looks almost like an old
school Pom pilot. So you'd basically find a person that
(24:36):
you want to enroll. The reason you'd want to enroll
and is, let's say he happened to be around an
ID site when something goes off, so you ask him
to come over and you know, fingerprint them. You know,
do the biometric data, and I basically ask him who
you are, what village you're from, you know, who's what's
your family name? Now, normally they're gonna lie to you
norm or it's not gonna translate correctly. So we never
(24:58):
really put a lot of faith in the information told us.
But then we would get a retinal scan, usually do
a fingerprint and some other type of match. So I
would take one device, playing it up to the computer,
enter that information. The information went into a main database
and it comes back and it tells you, Hey, that
guy that you had detained today, he is wanted for X,
Y and Z.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
You have to make the treator on the ground as
a guy who directly used this stuff, you as a
sergeant and your soldiers.
Speaker 6 (25:25):
Was it reliable? One hundred percent reliable?
Speaker 4 (25:29):
The Bats and Hides information was always you know, in
my opinion, it's always been good.
Speaker 12 (25:34):
You know.
Speaker 6 (25:34):
How do you argue DNA and biometric data.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
In his interview, John Maher backs up his client's assertion
that the data collected from Bats and Hides is almost unassailable.
He believes this because his colleague, biometrics expert Bill Carney,
has drawn this conclusion from his findings in the field.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Bill Kearney, I trust his work implicitly. If we come
across a d site where we're gonna have explosive ordinance,
you know, d come up there and diffuse it, or
after the bomb goes off, we pick up all the
forensic tidbits and then we run it fingerprints, because that
terrorist is not gonna wear gloves when he twists the wires,
(26:18):
and that's gonna leave his skin on there. Most of
the time, it leaves this perspiration on there. Sometimes it
leaves blood on there, and it leaves fingerprints. Fingerprints in
DNA are over one hundred years old. Though, if we
can begin to enroll folks and then identify who they are,
(26:39):
then we're able to delineate and discern who's opponent and
who's not.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Bill Carney declined to participate in this podcast. Samar and
Bales relay his findings on the biometric evidence he found
on the Appian victims.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Of the Afghan witnesses left their fingerprints in DNA at
great co ordinates on bomb parts nied parts. Four of
them left their fingerprints.
Speaker 6 (27:11):
Prosecution witness number five, Rafaula. Rafaula is the young boy was.
Speaker 4 (27:17):
Involved in the biometric system on nine March twenty thirteen.
The first prosecution witness, Mula Baran, was enrolled in biometric
system on twenty two May two thousand and nine.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
I have a letter here from the detention facility in
part one, and they believe that Mula Baran, witness number
one was a ten from the coalition.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
You've heard the voices of Mulla Baran and Rafaula in
earlier episodes. Both of their names came up during a
scrub bats and Hines. Baran was also at one point
detained in that in jail. What's more, Baals defense team
learned this through their own legwork, not from the military's records.
(27:58):
For Jay Morse in the prosecution.
Speaker 7 (28:02):
The farmers that they brought from Afghanistan to testify, we
were never told that these young people were clearly Taliban,
which I think would have made a difference if we'd
been told that, But we never found out out till
the end of the whole procedure.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
By all accounts, John Henry Brown inquired about whether all
of Bale's victims were simple farmers, but the powers that
be made it clear that the AFGHANSI testified were not
on trial Colonel Morris.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
He gets up and he says, the State Department informed
us that Muli Barrian might have been a detainee at
the detention facility in Parwan. But then the judge says,
I'm not going to make a congressional case about this challenge.
Defense should have been jumping up and down.
Speaker 7 (28:53):
They were not forthcoming with the defense. And there's this
big safe in our office at JBLM.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
JBLM is Joint Base Lewis McCord where the trial took place.
Speaker 7 (29:05):
And I asked one of the people I won't mention
because I'm not get him in trouble. I said, well,
what's it there? And they said, well, that's all the
stuff that you're not supposed to see. And I said, well,
is there anything in there that I should know about?
And he goes no.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
It can't have a guy got away for life or
plead guilty without making sure that the government of the
United States has shared all the exonerating evidence. Prosecutor Jane
Morris stand bright in the court. Well, the State Department says,
they're not going to turn him over to us, What
(29:40):
fuck go get him? Bob's police should never been taken
until a complete forensic criminal investigation was completed in a
wild Because the bodies were taken away and burned and
buried and disposed of. Was Bob's team able to get
the police reports on whether the forensics matched. Something as
simple as that never happened.
Speaker 4 (30:01):
They weren't allowed to ask Mula Baran if he was
a member of a terrorist organization. Our government wouldn't let
us ask that question. We know that Mulla Baran was
held at some detention center hadju Wazir.
Speaker 6 (30:12):
You can't ask him if he's a terrorist.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
Oh really, So the Taliban tattoo on his right hand
doesn't mean anything to you, even though it's documented in
the US Army Book of Symbols. There's a Taliban tattoo.
You know it is, and you can't ask for that question.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Here's the last piece of the puzzle for this dilemma
posed by Bails in his defense. Not only were the
Afghan victims part of the Taliban. Not only did those
Taliban connections go uninvestigated, but those same Afghans were flown
to America on commercial airlines.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
The United States flew twelve Afghan civilians into the United
States into Atlanta, Georgia, with the American flying public. They
were under fake social security numbers, fake passports, fake work visas,
they were held out as government contractors, and then they
(31:05):
were on Delta Airlines was truly innocent American flying public
to Seattle.
Speaker 4 (31:11):
How would you feel if you were on this flight
from Atlanta, Georgia to Seattle, Washington at eight twenty am
on August eighteen, twenty thirteen. How would you feel about
riding next to a.
Speaker 6 (31:25):
Guy there was a bomb maker?
Speaker 4 (31:27):
You feel comfortable flying on Delta Airlines flight eighteen eighty four.
You're flying and coach, You're sitting next to Mula Baran
who's been detained at Parwan form building bombs.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Perhaps you can see what marn Bales are getting at
with this. After all, the global war and tear began
with a couple of extremists taking control of passenger planes.
Furthering your point, when the Afghans arrived in the US
to testify they were afforded a fair number of American luxuries.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
We take them to the SeaWorld, right, That's what our
government did. They took them to SeaWorld.
Speaker 7 (32:05):
They took them to Disneyland, for God's sake, you know,
the prosecutors in civilian cases usually don't take their witnesses
to Disneyland. They obviously had new clothes that were very nice,
you know, Afghan style, but clearly high quality stuff.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Do you think that had an effect on their testimony?
Speaker 6 (32:25):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Bales, mar and Brown are presenting a narrative of the
events that runs counter to what was depicted by the
government in the media. For John Maher, the potential emission
of evidence in mitigating circumstances is a big reason why
Robert Bales serve as a new trial.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
I'd like to repeat what John Henry Brown said, the
fingerprints I wish I would have had, It would have
been a wholly different show. But if you can't find
that evidence because your countrymen kept it from you, what
are you gonna do?
Speaker 2 (33:08):
For Bales himself? This unearth intel goes even further at
a personal level. It can clear its name by revealing
his true motivation for leaving the VSP on March eleventh,
twenty twelve.
Speaker 6 (33:23):
If I want to walk in and kill everybody, why
not just go in and kill everybody? Why not in
the first village go in and kill everybody?
Speaker 4 (33:31):
Because that wasn't what the attempt was The attempt was
to try to stop people from putting in IDs. Naja
being Alcozi. These are not innocent locations to begin with.
Speaker 6 (33:44):
We have the evidence. Your wife is a Tall.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
That's the name of the journalist who interviewed six Afghans
from Alakozai and Najabien on behalf of our production. Attall
currently lives in Afghanistan, which is to say he lives
under Taliban rule. It's important to mention this before we
tell you that A Tall asked each Afghan participant whether
they in twenty twelve were actively working in service of
(34:15):
an enemy of the United States. Here's a Tall speaking
to Mulla Baran, the man who was once held in
a detention facility.
Speaker 13 (34:28):
Robert Bales claims that he wanted to kill Taliban the
night he entered your brother's house. Was any member of
your family in the Taliban or was your brother connected
to the Taliban?
Speaker 5 (34:39):
The claim of Robert Bales is one percent false. In
this age of technology, the Americans have equipment that can
distinguish civilians from non civilians. This was an intentional act.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Hadji Wazir is the patriarch who lost eleven family members
who suppose has the Taliban tattoo at all asked him
the same question.
Speaker 13 (35:07):
Robert Bales claims that he wanted to kill Taliban. Then
was any member of your family in the Taliban?
Speaker 5 (35:13):
No, nobody in our family was in the Taliban, nor
did we cooperate with them. Most of my family were
miners less than fifteen years old. Robert Bales has no
evidence against me in this case.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Rafiola was around fifteen years old in twenty twelve. According
to Bales, his prints came up in the Bats and
Hide system one year after the attack.
Speaker 12 (35:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (35:38):
Right, We had no interest in the Taliban. My family
members were farmers. We farmed domestic animals. We want to
live in our country and be calm. It doesn't matter
what government it is, as long as there is peace
and security so that we could be happy in our lives.
Speaker 13 (36:02):
What other effects did this incident have on your life?
Do you still have the same angers?
Speaker 5 (36:12):
I myself were shot in my legs. Now these parts
of my body heard at night. When I think about
this and I look at my sister who is now paralyzed,
my emotions increase. We want to tell the world that
after this incident, no help was given to us. They
(36:32):
have not paid any attention to us. We asked the
world to help us to treat our wounded, continue to
help the families of the martyrs.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
About six weeks after our production interviewed Rafula, one of
our contacts, Leila ahmed Zai, informed us that he had
tragically passed away in a swimming accident.
Speaker 6 (36:54):
That's all we know. One thing is clear.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
The Afghans who spoke with a Tall categorically denied Bales's
assertions that they were enemy and sergeants ten years ago.
But a tragedy like this one, such devastation, has the
potential to change allegiances. After nine to eleven, many Americans
decided that Al Qaeda in Afghanistan were our new enemies.
Perhaps the Kanahar masker had similar effect on the villagers
(37:22):
of the Panjwei region, after all, Nowadays, Mulla Baran approves
of the Taliban government, but the Tanyan.
Speaker 5 (37:31):
We like the Islamic Emirate. You may ask why I
say that all the people of Afghanistan have been burning
in the fire of war for forty years. Now, there
is one hundred percent security in Afghanistan. The wealth and
honor of all people are protected in it the voice
of a poor man is heard. The Islamic Emirate is
(37:54):
good not only for you and me, but for all people.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Mulla Baran's news is named hick Matula. He's about nineteen
years old here. Up until the withdrawal in late summer
of twenty twenty one, hick Matula had spent his entire
life under American occupation. His poignant perspective says a lot.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
The Reithims minder.
Speaker 5 (38:18):
The presence of the Taliban was very low when I
was young. We didn't even see them once a week. Yeah,
no one in our family was a member of the Taliban.
But after the incident, we became Taliban tedder will you
now we are with the Taliban.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Coming up on the war within.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
We found no evidence that any of these guys were Taliban.
Speaker 6 (38:47):
These are non combatants. They're unarmed. You hunted them down
and you shot them.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Bales was in one of the houses and the kits
smashed him in the head with a shovel.
Speaker 13 (38:56):
A traumatic brain injury can happen when they're is an
external force to the head, face, or neck.
Speaker 6 (39:06):
I call it an invisible disability looking back, and I
think I had a few concussions.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Bill's is not looking to be portrayed as a victim.
Speaker 6 (39:16):
I should have gotten some help.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
The War Within the Robert Bailes Story is production of
Bungalow Media and Entertainment, Checkpoint Productions and Mosquito Park Pictures
in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The series was created by
executive producers Paul Polowski and David check Executive producers form
Bungalow Media and Entertainment are Robert Friedman and Mike Powers.
(39:47):
The podcast was written and produced by Max Nelson and
hosted by me Mike McGinnis. Editing was done by Anna Hoberman,
sound design and mix by John Gardner. Teddy Gannon was
an archival. Leila Ahmadzai was an associate producer, and Peter
Solatarov was production assistant. Special thanks to Liz Yell Marsh,
(40:09):
Nicole Rubin, Marcy Barkain, Zach Burpee, and Meerwi Satal, as
well as all of the people who are interviewed for
the podcast. Listen and subscribe to The War Within on
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your
podcast
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.