June 29, 2020 • 22 mins
A creative writing teacher, author, lawyer, and activist — balancing multiple careers, a son with special needs, a teenage daughter, and a husband — unwinds at the end of the day by driving around with no destination in mind.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
I'm Danny Shapiro and this is the Way We Live Now.
Today is day one and eleven, since lipstick just seems
kind of bizarre, and don't get me started on mascara
and a fifty five of this podcast. My guest today
is Natasha Dyon, author of the acclaimed debut novel Grace,
practicing attorney and professor of creative writing, and founder of
(00:31):
the nonprofit Redeemed, the focus of which is to create
a hub of services and relief for those who have
been incarcerated or convicted of crimes. Natasha, thank you so
much for joining me to talk about the way we
live now. Thank you so much for having me. I'm
(00:51):
excited to be here. Thank you and same. So where
are you right now as we speak. You're a novelist,
so give us some novelistic detail about what you're surrounded by,
where you're sitting, what you see. I am sitting on
an orange sofa and it's the sofa of my dreams.
(01:14):
It came from this book, um that I a childhood
book that I had, and it looks exactly like it.
So it has little buttons across the back and on
one wall is wallpaper and it's just wallpaper that I
could afford that I really love, but couldn't afford to
copper the whole room or paper the whole room. So
it's just on one wall and it has like green
(01:35):
flowers with a black background. And I'm sitting next to
a drum. Do drum. No, it's just like a little
steel drum to bring peace or calm to a space.
I don't actually know how to use it properly, but
I like the sound when I hit it once. I
love that. So what is the past months since COVID
(01:58):
nineteen hit been like for you? Um? It's been confusing,
I guess that's the best word, and discovering who I
am literally in every moment, so as so I teach.
I'm a creative writing professor for U C l A UM.
I just finished the semester teaching at Otis College. I'm
(02:19):
also UM a lawyer, I'm a mom of two, my
son is disabled, and I'm alcule a wife. UM, and
I do conferences still like Zoom conferences for UM, Antioch
University and other places where I was already contracted to
do live ones. So all of it happens in this room,
on this orange couch now, UM. So it's confusing because
(02:42):
I'll literally be in court on zoom arguing for a client,
and the judge will sign my petition or tell me no,
and then I'll close that screen, and then my children
are saying, Mom, snacks, So I have to go and
literally walk into the other room make a snack, and
and I have to come back and do a conference
and talk to students. Um. So it's confusing because I
(03:05):
literally have to ask for myself who am I right
now in this moment, because obviously I can't get them confused,
or my children will be really upset with me, like, mom,
don't judge me. That's so interesting. Um. You know, I
think a lot about that we have these different selves,
you know, we all do, and there are parts of
(03:25):
ourselves that form, you know, something that's complete. But you know,
we operate in different ways in different spheres, and the
need to be staying home because of the virus and
in you know mother role and attorney role and wife
(03:48):
and teacher and writer those usually have their own spaces,
right yeah, and right now they all happen in my
writing room because I can't be in force is my
bedroom or my living room because there's so much noise,
the TV is on, you know, like life is happening
outside of this room. Um. So this is the only
(04:09):
place where I can be where everything can happen at
once um or differently, where I feel like I can
put it away. So there's no compartments anymore. It's just
every All the drawers are open, the closet doors are
flung open. Everything is just it's just here. How old
are your kids? They just turned fourteen and fifteen, or
three hundred and sixty four days apart, so on one
(04:32):
day a year, they're both the same age. So they
just on June fifteenth and sixteenth, they turned fourteen and fifteen.
So that's how out there. And my son is has
special needs, um so he requires twenty four hour care,
but he is hilarious and great. And my daughter is
typically able, and she, you know, is a teenager like
(04:53):
teenagers are. And we're just trying to keep everybody entertained
and happy and different, you know, So that's lot. Can
I ask how how have you managed to four hour
care during this time? That means that you or your
husband haven't been spelled at all? Right, yeah, so you
know it for us, My husband is a contract or
(05:16):
a builder. Um. So right now he's home and he
can be home most of the time, and so if
I'm here, he can do his job. And if I'm gone,
he has to be here. So but that's always been
you know, not just because of the virus. It's just
the way my son's birth changed my whole life. So
I was a corporate attorney for a very long time.
(05:39):
It was in San Francisco and London, and when he
was born, it just slowed my whole world down. So
what everybody is experiencing right now, I've had this for
fourteen years, um, you know, with occupational therapy, physical therapy,
speech therapies, or just emergency room visits. Um. So we're
kind of in our suite spot, except that now my
(06:02):
daughter she doesn't have the movement that she used to have,
like she could go out and do things. So we
have to find ways to entertain her too at home
and to keep her engaged and loved, and you know,
and it's often a push and pool and my mother
is here to add another layer. She's eighty, you know,
she's eight, but she's fun and spunky and you know,
(06:22):
but also bossy. So you know, we just we just
keep it going because there's no choice really, yeah, you know,
And so what I was thinking was, you know, for
all of us, we're all on this worldwide time out,
you know, and we have this time to experience things.
And what I would hate is to look back over
these three four months and think to myself, I haven't
done anything differently, you know, I haven't accomplished anything. I
(06:46):
haven't appreciated this time because it's almost over, you know,
everybody they're trying to get people back out in the world,
so I worry about that too. So I want to
just be very present some gardening. You know. That's something
I've never done before, tomatoes growing, and I don't want
to miss it, even if I start today, you know,
I want to say, what can I do? Starting today?
(07:07):
He's last however long do you think that you're experience
with your son and these last fourteen years has given
you different muscles for this? I think so. I think
so for the for that slowing down part, because I
was very much, you know, on the grind, you know,
sixty hour eighty hour weeks um and I still am,
(07:32):
but differently, so there's no my weeks kind of don't
end their unpredictable, and what it taught me is that
I have to make it up. You know, there's no
blueprint for this. There's no nine to five. There hasn't
been a nine to five for a very long time,
or even a nine to eight or ten. So it's
pretty much just making up life in my schedule, um
(07:56):
and just seeing how it feels. You know. I was
vegan for a very long time, not for moral reasons,
it just seemed like the right thing to do at
that time. And I remember, like towards the end of it,
I started feeling really sick, like my not sick, but
like sore. My hips and things like that were sore.
And then one day I was just craving salmon and
then that meal ended my veganism, eating a piece of salmon.
(08:18):
But that next day I felt my you know, my
limbs were restored, and I remember saying to a friend
who was also vegan, I was like, I'm so sorry,
after all this time, I'm not vegan anymore. And I
remember she said to me, your body knows what it needs,
so you have to do that thing. Because I was
telling her, I feel great, but I feel sorry. I felt,
you know, guilty. She was like, your body knows and
(08:40):
that's what it needed to do. So that's how I
sort of live my life, like your body knows what
it needs. There's so many people telling you you should
do this, or you should do that, you should go running,
but your body knows. So I'm just spending a lot
of time listening to my body. So when I get up,
when I go to sleep, you know, people will say
stay on a routine, get up at the same time,
(09:01):
but I really just kind of go with the flow.
So my son has taught me that because he doesn't
sleep some nights, so I'm up some nights all night,
so I don't wake up till ten. But I don't
feel guilty about it. And if I miss something on
my to do list, I just let it go. Like
this morning, I ended up on social media too long
and I was like, oh no, my whole morning is gone.
(09:22):
Now I have to wait till tomorrow. But I had
to forgive myself and just say, you know what, we're
gonna start again. We can start again at three or
at four or tomorrow. Yeah that's okay. Yeah. I love
that you're saying that, because you're really talking about something
that's hard. For a lot of people, and maybe particularly
hard now, which is being kind to yourself, you know,
(09:43):
treating yourself as the way that you would treat uh
someone that you love. And you know, so often we
find that difficult to do, and I think especially when
we're in the midst of something that might feel very
uncomfortable or pressured for people. And yet that's when it's
most important. So in addition to being a novelist, as
(10:07):
you mentioned, you're a practicing attorney and you work primarily
with incarcerated or previously incarcerated people to help clear criminal records.
Is that apt description? Yeah. So I started a nonprofit
UM called Redeemed, So it's a it's a criminal re
entry project. So I pair professional writers because as a writer,
(10:29):
I have a great community of writers here in l A.
So I pair professional writers with lawyers and applicants to
clear criminal records UM, to give them a pathway back
to work free of charge, and because it helps them
to get jobs, to travel because that crime that they did,
say at eighteen years old, they're not the same person
at forty or even at twenty or even thirty. You know,
(10:52):
you just we just grow, but that record is always
on you know, it follows them for the rest of
their lives as if it's a life sentence, and it
shouldn't be so when people anytime a background check is required,
sometimes that's just crossing the border to Canada or to Europe,
or to get a job or to get housing, it
(11:12):
always shows up. So what we help to do is
help people retell their story, their license, their crimes so
that a judge can once and for all say you
know what, we're going to see all this, no one
can see it ever again, and they never have to
answer that question again because every time they apply for
a job or whatever that requires a background check, they
(11:33):
have to answer for that every time for the rest
of their lives. And people really don't know what that
feels like until it's them, you know, saying, yeah, I
want my license to be I don't know, cosmetologist or
a teacher. Oh that thing I did back in Yeah,
that happening on your retail and you're being tried again
by whoever that HR director is. So we just make
(11:56):
it so that you ask the judge to do it
once and for all, and then it won't be seen again.
And then in two thousand and twenty, this year. Actually,
we started a clemency project where we go into prisons
UM and we give people a redemption opportunity for exceptional
inmates who have lived the good life while they're in there,
(12:16):
who are in the honor part of the UM prisons,
and we give them a chance to apply for clemency
for the governor to get out of prison. Because some
of them have been there longer than twenty five years,
you know, they went in Yale and now they're seniors,
you know, sixties seventy, and it gives them a chance
to start again on the outside for the rest of
their life. Such important work, and it feels more important
(12:41):
now than ever. Do do you feel that way? Yeah,
I definitely feel that way because I believe in I
believe that people grow, and I think that we live
in a country that allows people to be who they
are once you decide to work for it, and we're
not in the criminal justice system. It has it has
a lot of problems, but there's just an opportunity where
(13:02):
we can give people their lives back, we can recognize
who they are now and we don't have to punish
people forever. So that's what I'm interested in, and I
just drafted a new law, you know, to help deal
with the protests that are going uprising that's going on,
that's been needed across the country to help, you know,
to prevent police officers from executing the death penalty on
(13:25):
civilians suspected of a crime. So that's like the new
thing is that within the last several weeks that you
that you drafted that um Actually I couldn't sleep like
a week ago or four days ago, and I just
woke up in the middle of the night. I said,
this is how we could do this. You know what
if you can't kill runners anymore, you can't execute the
(13:46):
death penalty on somebody who's running away from you. But
if you can't kill them if you're arresting them, because
it's likely that whatever crime they committed or you think
they committed, would not be subject to the death penalty anyway.
So we can't kill people for bad behay aavier. You know,
people are especially the you know, people struggling with mental
health issues, people who are scared they're gonna run, they're
(14:06):
gonna be combative. But how about we use non lethal
um weapons. If it's not pepper spray or stunt guns,
maybe we can develop something else. But there's a way
we can subdue people non lethally without killing that and
officers should be responsible for that behavior. UM. So that's
what I just set up and I drafted that and
(14:28):
friends are helping me sort of circulate it. Um. So
I get to meet with the California Assemblyman soon. I'm
hoping if it goes through. Um. But we could save
lives like right now, you know, without taking another step
like today, we could do this nationwide. You can't kill people,
how about no death penalty, you know, but you can
still protect officers lives. My dad was a police officer,
(14:50):
a thirty year veteran of the l A County Sheriff's Department.
So I get it. I wanted him to come home,
and I also want people to live. And I think
we can do it. I think we're smart enough and
it enough as Americans to do that. It's so clear.
Have you ever have you thought about running for office?
I know I'm kind of not gooding, you know, I
(15:14):
don't you know what. I'm just like, I got all
these I love my students, you know, I love I
want them to be great, Like I'm hearing for I'm
caring for good people. I want to help. I want
to add value. I don't know. I just want to
reach people. I don't think that I have that politician
e vibe. Yeah, you know, but I love people. You know,
(15:35):
your work has been as as most of us who
have been continuing to work as you know, transition to
this you know, zoom or whatever sort of these virtual platforms.
What's that been like for you, both as a professor
of writing and as an attorney in dealing with your clients.
Because it strikes me too when we were talking about
these different roles all colliding. You're doing it all from
(15:57):
your orange couch, and you're also doing it all looking
into the same screen but with different people looking back
at you. Um, but it's like it's all like the
Truman Show meets groundhog Day or something. Right, Yeah, that's
exactly what it feels like, you know. I I was
with the I did a children's reading for the California
(16:19):
African American Museum here in l A. And I couldn't
see any of them because I had to do it
from the zoom on my phone. But I set it
up and it reminded me of, at least for me,
when I was a little. I don't know if you
if you did this, but I used to set up
all my dolls across the wall, like I would sit
them down and I would like talk to them or
read them stories. And because there's no real children looking
(16:43):
back at me, it felt like looking at my screen
talking to all the dolls that aren't talking back like
inanimate objects. So it was weird. I was like, I'm
an adult doing the same thing again. That's so interesting, yes,
because there's no energy exchange, like they're just human beings
in the room together, and there are just ways in
(17:03):
which that can just feel totally bizarre. But that what
what a great what a great analogy. Yeah, so that's
what it feels like unless there's a you know, the
judges talking to me. Um. I forced my students now
to ask questions, like they can't just raise their hand
or type in the comments, like you have to turn
off your mute and you have to talk to me
(17:24):
right now. So I don't care if you talk over
each other. Just talk. Somebody talk to you. Um. But
I value I value people, and I value that exchange.
So my last question for you is how are you
taking care of yourself? Um, You've got your steel drum,
you've got a you've got a house full, and you've
(17:46):
got several careers all happening, you know, at once, and
you sound very centered. I don't know if you feel
that way, but you sound that way. I'm just wondering
how you're taking care of yourself. You know, as we
go into month four of this reckoning, this historical reckoning
(18:08):
that we're all living through, I think it's this that
are you're talking to you right now. I really enjoy
talking to people like this is I tell you, I
was talking how lonely it is, you know, because I'm
in a room. You know, when I'm by myself or
thinking about just myself. So in my house, I'm thinking
about my children, my husband, is my mom. Okay, do
(18:31):
you need anything? Um. So when I'm in this room,
it's just the things that I do or the things
that I'm interested in. So when I get to talk
to you, like now, it's like someone's come to my room. Hello,
Like you know, it feels like someone's here, so it
gives me energy. Um. But during the day, this is
also my bar. This room is also you know, let's
(18:52):
be real, so that you know, you know, I'll have
a drink at the end of the day. I have
a prayer room upstairs, so I pray a lot. I'm Christian,
I read my Bible, um, play calming music in a
garden now, and then I go on a drive. So
I do you know how So I used to have
(19:12):
living in l A. There's a lot of traffic, so
I would be in traffic maybe an hour or two
one way every day. So now I'll just drive around
for an hour at the end of the day, you know,
by myself, with the music off, no air conditioning, and
I just drive around because you can to write, like
the are you saying in part that like the freeways
(19:34):
and the streets are a lot emptier than they were.
They're a lot emptier than they were. But I'll also
need that that come down time from the end of
my day. Like walking from one room to another isn't enough.
So I put on my mask and my gloves, I
get in my car and I just drive going nowhere
for an hour. Um, even if there's traffic. I'm happy.
(19:56):
I'm like, oh look look people cars. Yeah, but I'm
not going anywhere, and I just feel like it's my commute.
And so that's what I do. I love that that. Know,
that makes so much sense. And I think transitions, which
we're all used to having of work to home, home,
to different aspects of the things that we do. Um,
we are used to transitions, and now we have no
(20:17):
transitions or nothing that nothing that's visible to us or
palpable to us. Um. So that's um, that's great. I
love that. I'll think of you driving driving nowhere around
l A. I do that, to driving nowhere. I do
that in Connecticut, you know, like just driving around you know,
(20:38):
the rolling hills just kind of beautiful. It's it's beautiful
and there's no traffic, but and I've got nowhere to go,
there's nowhere to be. But but there's something very meditative
about it. But I think you're exactly right that it
has to do with that shifting of gears. Um, it's
so important. Well, Natasha, this is such a wonderful conversation.
(20:59):
This is what this is why I do this podcast
for exactly the reason that you just said is that
that connecting is the thing that in all the different
ways that we connect, that where we can turn our
attention like both deeper and outward at the same time. Yeah,
I love that Thank you so much, Thank you for
(21:20):
having me, Thanks for listening to the Way We Live Now.
Tell us the way you're living now. We want to
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(21:40):
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Now pot. We are creating a community here and we
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(22:02):
Now is a production of iHeart Radio. It's produced by
a Low Brulante. Bethan Macaluso is executive producer. Special thanks
to Tristan McNeil and Tyler Klang. For more podcasts from
iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Danny Shapiro and this is the Way We Live Now.
Today is day one and eleven, since lipstick just seems
kind of bizarre, and don't get me started on mascara
and a fifty five of this podcast. My guest today
is Natasha Dyon, author of the acclaimed debut novel Grace,
practicing attorney and professor of creative writing, and founder of
(00:31):
the nonprofit Redeemed, the focus of which is to create
a hub of services and relief for those who have
been incarcerated or convicted of crimes. Natasha, thank you so
much for joining me to talk about the way we
live now. Thank you so much for having me. I'm
(00:51):
excited to be here. Thank you and same. So where
are you right now as we speak. You're a novelist,
so give us some novelistic detail about what you're surrounded by,
where you're sitting, what you see. I am sitting on
an orange sofa and it's the sofa of my dreams.
(01:14):
It came from this book, um that I a childhood
book that I had, and it looks exactly like it.
So it has little buttons across the back and on
one wall is wallpaper and it's just wallpaper that I
could afford that I really love, but couldn't afford to
copper the whole room or paper the whole room. So
it's just on one wall and it has like green
(01:35):
flowers with a black background. And I'm sitting next to
a drum. Do drum. No, it's just like a little
steel drum to bring peace or calm to a space.
I don't actually know how to use it properly, but
I like the sound when I hit it once. I
love that. So what is the past months since COVID
(01:58):
nineteen hit been like for you? Um? It's been confusing,
I guess that's the best word, and discovering who I
am literally in every moment, so as so I teach.
I'm a creative writing professor for U C l A UM.
I just finished the semester teaching at Otis College. I'm
(02:19):
also UM a lawyer, I'm a mom of two, my
son is disabled, and I'm alcule a wife. UM, and
I do conferences still like Zoom conferences for UM, Antioch
University and other places where I was already contracted to
do live ones. So all of it happens in this room,
on this orange couch now, UM. So it's confusing because
(02:42):
I'll literally be in court on zoom arguing for a client,
and the judge will sign my petition or tell me no,
and then I'll close that screen, and then my children
are saying, Mom, snacks, So I have to go and
literally walk into the other room make a snack, and
and I have to come back and do a conference
and talk to students. Um. So it's confusing because I
(03:05):
literally have to ask for myself who am I right
now in this moment, because obviously I can't get them confused,
or my children will be really upset with me, like, mom,
don't judge me. That's so interesting. Um. You know, I
think a lot about that we have these different selves,
you know, we all do, and there are parts of
(03:25):
ourselves that form, you know, something that's complete. But you know,
we operate in different ways in different spheres, and the
need to be staying home because of the virus and
in you know mother role and attorney role and wife
(03:48):
and teacher and writer those usually have their own spaces,
right yeah, and right now they all happen in my
writing room because I can't be in force is my
bedroom or my living room because there's so much noise,
the TV is on, you know, like life is happening
outside of this room. Um. So this is the only
(04:09):
place where I can be where everything can happen at
once um or differently, where I feel like I can
put it away. So there's no compartments anymore. It's just
every All the drawers are open, the closet doors are
flung open. Everything is just it's just here. How old
are your kids? They just turned fourteen and fifteen, or
three hundred and sixty four days apart, so on one
(04:32):
day a year, they're both the same age. So they
just on June fifteenth and sixteenth, they turned fourteen and fifteen.
So that's how out there. And my son is has
special needs, um so he requires twenty four hour care,
but he is hilarious and great. And my daughter is
typically able, and she, you know, is a teenager like
(04:53):
teenagers are. And we're just trying to keep everybody entertained
and happy and different, you know, So that's lot. Can
I ask how how have you managed to four hour
care during this time? That means that you or your
husband haven't been spelled at all? Right, yeah, so you
know it for us, My husband is a contract or
(05:16):
a builder. Um. So right now he's home and he
can be home most of the time, and so if
I'm here, he can do his job. And if I'm gone,
he has to be here. So but that's always been
you know, not just because of the virus. It's just
the way my son's birth changed my whole life. So
I was a corporate attorney for a very long time.
(05:39):
It was in San Francisco and London, and when he
was born, it just slowed my whole world down. So
what everybody is experiencing right now, I've had this for
fourteen years, um, you know, with occupational therapy, physical therapy,
speech therapies, or just emergency room visits. Um. So we're
kind of in our suite spot, except that now my
(06:02):
daughter she doesn't have the movement that she used to have,
like she could go out and do things. So we
have to find ways to entertain her too at home
and to keep her engaged and loved, and you know,
and it's often a push and pool and my mother
is here to add another layer. She's eighty, you know,
she's eight, but she's fun and spunky and you know,
(06:22):
but also bossy. So you know, we just we just
keep it going because there's no choice really, yeah, you know,
And so what I was thinking was, you know, for
all of us, we're all on this worldwide time out,
you know, and we have this time to experience things.
And what I would hate is to look back over
these three four months and think to myself, I haven't
done anything differently, you know, I haven't accomplished anything. I
(06:46):
haven't appreciated this time because it's almost over, you know,
everybody they're trying to get people back out in the world,
so I worry about that too. So I want to
just be very present some gardening. You know. That's something
I've never done before, tomatoes growing, and I don't want
to miss it, even if I start today, you know,
I want to say, what can I do? Starting today?
(07:07):
He's last however long do you think that you're experience
with your son and these last fourteen years has given
you different muscles for this? I think so. I think
so for the for that slowing down part, because I
was very much, you know, on the grind, you know,
sixty hour eighty hour weeks um and I still am,
(07:32):
but differently, so there's no my weeks kind of don't
end their unpredictable, and what it taught me is that
I have to make it up. You know, there's no
blueprint for this. There's no nine to five. There hasn't
been a nine to five for a very long time,
or even a nine to eight or ten. So it's
pretty much just making up life in my schedule, um
(07:56):
and just seeing how it feels. You know. I was
vegan for a very long time, not for moral reasons,
it just seemed like the right thing to do at
that time. And I remember, like towards the end of it,
I started feeling really sick, like my not sick, but
like sore. My hips and things like that were sore.
And then one day I was just craving salmon and
then that meal ended my veganism, eating a piece of salmon.
(08:18):
But that next day I felt my you know, my
limbs were restored, and I remember saying to a friend
who was also vegan, I was like, I'm so sorry,
after all this time, I'm not vegan anymore. And I
remember she said to me, your body knows what it needs,
so you have to do that thing. Because I was
telling her, I feel great, but I feel sorry. I felt,
you know, guilty. She was like, your body knows and
(08:40):
that's what it needed to do. So that's how I
sort of live my life, like your body knows what
it needs. There's so many people telling you you should
do this, or you should do that, you should go running,
but your body knows. So I'm just spending a lot
of time listening to my body. So when I get up,
when I go to sleep, you know, people will say
stay on a routine, get up at the same time,
(09:01):
but I really just kind of go with the flow.
So my son has taught me that because he doesn't
sleep some nights, so I'm up some nights all night,
so I don't wake up till ten. But I don't
feel guilty about it. And if I miss something on
my to do list, I just let it go. Like
this morning, I ended up on social media too long
and I was like, oh no, my whole morning is gone.
(09:22):
Now I have to wait till tomorrow. But I had
to forgive myself and just say, you know what, we're
gonna start again. We can start again at three or
at four or tomorrow. Yeah that's okay. Yeah. I love
that you're saying that, because you're really talking about something
that's hard. For a lot of people, and maybe particularly
hard now, which is being kind to yourself, you know,
(09:43):
treating yourself as the way that you would treat uh
someone that you love. And you know, so often we
find that difficult to do, and I think especially when
we're in the midst of something that might feel very
uncomfortable or pressured for people. And yet that's when it's
most important. So in addition to being a novelist, as
(10:07):
you mentioned, you're a practicing attorney and you work primarily
with incarcerated or previously incarcerated people to help clear criminal records.
Is that apt description? Yeah. So I started a nonprofit
UM called Redeemed, So it's a it's a criminal re
entry project. So I pair professional writers because as a writer,
(10:29):
I have a great community of writers here in l A.
So I pair professional writers with lawyers and applicants to
clear criminal records UM, to give them a pathway back
to work free of charge, and because it helps them
to get jobs, to travel because that crime that they did,
say at eighteen years old, they're not the same person
at forty or even at twenty or even thirty. You know,
(10:52):
you just we just grow, but that record is always
on you know, it follows them for the rest of
their lives as if it's a life sentence, and it
shouldn't be so when people anytime a background check is required,
sometimes that's just crossing the border to Canada or to Europe,
or to get a job or to get housing, it
(11:12):
always shows up. So what we help to do is
help people retell their story, their license, their crimes so
that a judge can once and for all say you
know what, we're going to see all this, no one
can see it ever again, and they never have to
answer that question again because every time they apply for
a job or whatever that requires a background check, they
(11:33):
have to answer for that every time for the rest
of their lives. And people really don't know what that
feels like until it's them, you know, saying, yeah, I
want my license to be I don't know, cosmetologist or
a teacher. Oh that thing I did back in Yeah,
that happening on your retail and you're being tried again
by whoever that HR director is. So we just make
(11:56):
it so that you ask the judge to do it
once and for all, and then it won't be seen again.
And then in two thousand and twenty, this year. Actually,
we started a clemency project where we go into prisons
UM and we give people a redemption opportunity for exceptional
inmates who have lived the good life while they're in there,
(12:16):
who are in the honor part of the UM prisons,
and we give them a chance to apply for clemency
for the governor to get out of prison. Because some
of them have been there longer than twenty five years,
you know, they went in Yale and now they're seniors,
you know, sixties seventy, and it gives them a chance
to start again on the outside for the rest of
their life. Such important work, and it feels more important
(12:41):
now than ever. Do do you feel that way? Yeah,
I definitely feel that way because I believe in I
believe that people grow, and I think that we live
in a country that allows people to be who they
are once you decide to work for it, and we're
not in the criminal justice system. It has it has
a lot of problems, but there's just an opportunity where
(13:02):
we can give people their lives back, we can recognize
who they are now and we don't have to punish
people forever. So that's what I'm interested in, and I
just drafted a new law, you know, to help deal
with the protests that are going uprising that's going on,
that's been needed across the country to help, you know,
to prevent police officers from executing the death penalty on
(13:25):
civilians suspected of a crime. So that's like the new
thing is that within the last several weeks that you
that you drafted that um Actually I couldn't sleep like
a week ago or four days ago, and I just
woke up in the middle of the night. I said,
this is how we could do this. You know what
if you can't kill runners anymore, you can't execute the
(13:46):
death penalty on somebody who's running away from you. But
if you can't kill them if you're arresting them, because
it's likely that whatever crime they committed or you think
they committed, would not be subject to the death penalty anyway.
So we can't kill people for bad behay aavier. You know,
people are especially the you know, people struggling with mental
health issues, people who are scared they're gonna run, they're
(14:06):
gonna be combative. But how about we use non lethal
um weapons. If it's not pepper spray or stunt guns,
maybe we can develop something else. But there's a way
we can subdue people non lethally without killing that and
officers should be responsible for that behavior. UM. So that's
what I just set up and I drafted that and
(14:28):
friends are helping me sort of circulate it. Um. So
I get to meet with the California Assemblyman soon. I'm
hoping if it goes through. Um. But we could save
lives like right now, you know, without taking another step
like today, we could do this nationwide. You can't kill people,
how about no death penalty, you know, but you can
still protect officers lives. My dad was a police officer,
(14:50):
a thirty year veteran of the l A County Sheriff's Department.
So I get it. I wanted him to come home,
and I also want people to live. And I think
we can do it. I think we're smart enough and
it enough as Americans to do that. It's so clear.
Have you ever have you thought about running for office?
I know I'm kind of not gooding, you know, I
(15:14):
don't you know what. I'm just like, I got all
these I love my students, you know, I love I
want them to be great, Like I'm hearing for I'm
caring for good people. I want to help. I want
to add value. I don't know. I just want to
reach people. I don't think that I have that politician
e vibe. Yeah, you know, but I love people. You know,
(15:35):
your work has been as as most of us who
have been continuing to work as you know, transition to
this you know, zoom or whatever sort of these virtual platforms.
What's that been like for you, both as a professor
of writing and as an attorney in dealing with your clients.
Because it strikes me too when we were talking about
these different roles all colliding. You're doing it all from
(15:57):
your orange couch, and you're also doing it all looking
into the same screen but with different people looking back
at you. Um, but it's like it's all like the
Truman Show meets groundhog Day or something. Right, Yeah, that's
exactly what it feels like, you know. I I was
with the I did a children's reading for the California
(16:19):
African American Museum here in l A. And I couldn't
see any of them because I had to do it
from the zoom on my phone. But I set it
up and it reminded me of, at least for me,
when I was a little. I don't know if you
if you did this, but I used to set up
all my dolls across the wall, like I would sit
them down and I would like talk to them or
read them stories. And because there's no real children looking
(16:43):
back at me, it felt like looking at my screen
talking to all the dolls that aren't talking back like
inanimate objects. So it was weird. I was like, I'm
an adult doing the same thing again. That's so interesting, yes,
because there's no energy exchange, like they're just human beings
in the room together, and there are just ways in
(17:03):
which that can just feel totally bizarre. But that what
what a great what a great analogy. Yeah, so that's
what it feels like unless there's a you know, the
judges talking to me. Um. I forced my students now
to ask questions, like they can't just raise their hand
or type in the comments, like you have to turn
off your mute and you have to talk to me
(17:24):
right now. So I don't care if you talk over
each other. Just talk. Somebody talk to you. Um. But
I value I value people, and I value that exchange.
So my last question for you is how are you
taking care of yourself? Um, You've got your steel drum,
you've got a you've got a house full, and you've
(17:46):
got several careers all happening, you know, at once, and
you sound very centered. I don't know if you feel
that way, but you sound that way. I'm just wondering
how you're taking care of yourself. You know, as we
go into month four of this reckoning, this historical reckoning
(18:08):
that we're all living through, I think it's this that
are you're talking to you right now. I really enjoy
talking to people like this is I tell you, I
was talking how lonely it is, you know, because I'm
in a room. You know, when I'm by myself or
thinking about just myself. So in my house, I'm thinking
about my children, my husband, is my mom. Okay, do
(18:31):
you need anything? Um. So when I'm in this room,
it's just the things that I do or the things
that I'm interested in. So when I get to talk
to you, like now, it's like someone's come to my room. Hello,
Like you know, it feels like someone's here, so it
gives me energy. Um. But during the day, this is
also my bar. This room is also you know, let's
(18:52):
be real, so that you know, you know, I'll have
a drink at the end of the day. I have
a prayer room upstairs, so I pray a lot. I'm Christian,
I read my Bible, um, play calming music in a
garden now, and then I go on a drive. So
I do you know how So I used to have
(19:12):
living in l A. There's a lot of traffic, so
I would be in traffic maybe an hour or two
one way every day. So now I'll just drive around
for an hour at the end of the day, you know,
by myself, with the music off, no air conditioning, and
I just drive around because you can to write, like
the are you saying in part that like the freeways
(19:34):
and the streets are a lot emptier than they were.
They're a lot emptier than they were. But I'll also
need that that come down time from the end of
my day. Like walking from one room to another isn't enough.
So I put on my mask and my gloves, I
get in my car and I just drive going nowhere
for an hour. Um, even if there's traffic. I'm happy.
(19:56):
I'm like, oh look look people cars. Yeah, but I'm
not going anywhere, and I just feel like it's my commute.
And so that's what I do. I love that that. Know,
that makes so much sense. And I think transitions, which
we're all used to having of work to home, home,
to different aspects of the things that we do. Um,
we are used to transitions, and now we have no
(20:17):
transitions or nothing that nothing that's visible to us or
palpable to us. Um. So that's um, that's great. I
love that. I'll think of you driving driving nowhere around
l A. I do that, to driving nowhere. I do
that in Connecticut, you know, like just driving around you know,
(20:38):
the rolling hills just kind of beautiful. It's it's beautiful
and there's no traffic, but and I've got nowhere to go,
there's nowhere to be. But but there's something very meditative
about it. But I think you're exactly right that it
has to do with that shifting of gears. Um, it's
so important. Well, Natasha, this is such a wonderful conversation.
(20:59):
This is what this is why I do this podcast
for exactly the reason that you just said is that
that connecting is the thing that in all the different
ways that we connect, that where we can turn our
attention like both deeper and outward at the same time. Yeah,
I love that Thank you so much, Thank you for
(21:20):
having me, Thanks for listening to the Way We Live Now.
Tell us the way you're living now. We want to
hear call us on. You might want to pen for
this nine oh nine seven one three eight that's nine
(21:40):
o nine seven one three eight nine nine five and
record your story and we might just use it on
the pod. Also, you can join our Facebook group at
facebook dot com slash groups slash the Way we Live
Now pot. We are creating a community here and we
would love for you to join us. You can find
me on Instagram at Danny Ryder. The Way We Live
(22:02):
Now is a production of iHeart Radio. It's produced by
a Low Brulante. Bethan Macaluso is executive producer. Special thanks
to Tristan McNeil and Tyler Klang. For more podcasts from
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