July 12, 2024 • 39 mins
Earlier this week, I got the chance to chat with Crissle of The Read as we discussed her journey to graduating with her Master’s degree in Mental Health Counseling. As a special bonus, we also sat down to answer some of your listener letters from The Read, as well as a few inquiries that were sent in by the TBG community. We touched on topics such as feeling like you’re behind in your career, setting boundaries with abusive parents, sharing a therapist with your friends, and more.
About the Podcast
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for the special bonus episode of the
thing Therapy for Black Girls podcasts. We'll get right into
our conversation after a word from our sponsors. This July,
Therapy for Black Girls is bringing our yearly Minority Mental
Health Month celebration in person to Atlanta, Georgia. Join us
Thursday July eighteenth and Friday July nineteenth as we shine
(01:20):
a light on mental health professionals and all those who
dedicated their careers to holding space for others. Our inaugural
Holding Space for Healers Therapists Summit will gather some of
our favorite voices in the field for workshops, seminars, and
opportunities to connect. You don't want to miss this, so
secure your ticket to wellness by visiting Therapy for Blackgirls
(01:41):
dot com slash Healers. Earlier this week, I got the
chance to chat with the one and only Krystal of
the Read as we discussed her journey to graduating with
her master's degree in mental health counseling. As a special bonus,
we also sat down to answer some of your listener
(02:02):
letters from the read as well as a few questions
that were sent in by members of the TVG community.
We touched on topics such as feeling like you're behind
in your career, setting boundaries with abusive parents, sharing a
therapist with your friends, and more. If something resonates with
you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on
(02:22):
social media using the hashtag TVG in Session or join
us over in the sister Circle to talk more about
the episode. You can join us at community dot Therapy
for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. So I'm super
excited because we are reconvening for another listener letter option.
(02:44):
So it was such a thrill to join you in
Kidfiury on the read years ago to answer some listener questions,
and so I feel like we have a bit of
a crossover with some questions that the Therapy for Black
Girls community has shared, but also a couple of listener
letters from the read that we will share an answer together.
So Chris, you will start with a letter from you all?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Okay, I sure will. This one comes from Fiona, who says,
I'm a thirty three year old mom who has recently
been diagnosed with ADHD after starting therapy. In order to
not repeat the bs my parents did to me with
my own son eight years ago, I broke up with
my son's father after finding out I was pregnant and
moved back home. That was when I discovered that my
(03:25):
father was homeless. To help him out, I signed a
lease for an apartment for him. My dad is a
stubborn Caribbean man who doesn't take care of himself and
ignores his diabetes. One day, he stepped on a nail,
refused to get treatment, and long story short, ultimately lost
his leg. Since he is my dad and I didn't
have a partner at the time, I bought a house
and put my dad's name on it, thinking it would
(03:46):
help him since rent was going up and his pension
was not enough to sustain him. But now four years later,
him just breathing gets on my nerves. When he gets mad,
he cusses me out and says that I'm a bad daughter.
He'll cuss me out for literally anything like buying a
brand of coffee he doesn't like, or accidentally playing the
wrong lotto numbers for him. I bought a dog to
give my dad something to do, but he's still cussing
(04:08):
me out in front of my child. He's probably bored,
but I cannot entertain him. I work a nine to
five and I have a six year old who also
most likely has ADHD. I ask my family on my
mom's side, and they all say I should just ignore him,
that he's losing his mind, and not to take it personally.
My parents divorced when I was thirteen, so that side
of the family really does not care what happens to him.
(04:29):
My parents neglected me and didn't really have time for me.
As a kid, I was alone a lot and learned
to find joy in silence and solitude. Now, after all
this disrespect and stress from my dad, I just want
him out of my house, but he has no means
to live on his own. Any advice you can offer
is more than appreciated. Thanks again, Fiona. Oo.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Wow, there's a lot going on here, isn't there? Yeah? Hm,
So I think I would start by it feels like
there is some self compassion likely needed here for Fiona,
because it sounds like she was trying to make the
best decisions she could to try to help and take
care of dead. But it also sounds like she has
(05:11):
some regrets now, like her saying, oh, him just breathing
gets on my nerves And anytime I hear that, that
is like an instant sign that like, boundaries have been
crossed and you have not maybe done a good enough
job setting clear boundaries for yourself. So I think it's
important for her to forgive herself and to be kind
to herself, that maybe she did some things to try
(05:32):
to help and now she's realizing this is actually no
longer working for me, and so she doesn't need to
be super critical over herself and trying to figure out, Okay,
how do I get out of this maybe, or how
do things look different than maybe what I was thinking
they would look like?
Speaker 2 (05:45):
One of the things that came up a lot in
my program was this emphasis on cultural sensitivity cultural awareness,
understanding that the United States is a very western, independent
and sort of society, whereas a lot of other cultures
are more collectivists. And so I want to be respectful
(06:07):
of the fact that you all are a Caribbean and
maybe in your culture you don't just leave your dad
on the side of the road, but that would I
also struggle. I struggle with this, doctor Joy when people
say my parents abused and neglected me as a child,
and now as an adult, I don't know what to do.
I'm like, abuse and neglect them right back?
Speaker 1 (06:28):
What do you mean?
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Like, I really struggle with that as somebody who has
you know, I have cut my dad off. I do
not speak to him. So if he had nowhere to live,
he would just have nowhere to live. You don't get
to cuss me out in my home. That's how I
feel about it. But then I'm like, oh, well, maybe
that's my americanness coming out. I don't care what happens
(06:50):
to my parents, and so in this question, that's what
it brings up for me, and I guess that's maybe
sort of what I would want to ask you about
is like, where do you think the line is between
advocating for yourself, having boundaries and respecting cultural differences, Because
I feel like sometimes the culture is wrong. Sometimes our
cultures have attitudes that are harmful.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Absolutely, yeah, that's what I was going to say, Like,
I definitely feel like there's a difference between knowing where
it comes from and being okay to continue perpetuating it. Right,
So we can understand that culturally there is this expectation,
but how far are we going to go in the
interest of protecting our own mental health, setting our own
selves up for failure, continuing in relationships where we are
(07:36):
not affirmed and validated in all of these things. And
so I definitely think this could be an example of Okay,
even though the expectation is one thing, in my own
best interest and in the own interests of my child,
I may need to do something different and it isn't
clearly because you didn't try, right, So, I feel like
the cultural expectation was the effort that she's already put
(07:59):
forward to take care dad. But you don't have to
continue to be denegrated and like abused in this situation
when you have some more power now than you did
maybe as a child.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Right. That was what was huge for me as a client,
was I mean, you know it. You know, you're like,
I'm an adult, I don't have to listen to anybody else,
but we can feel and be mentally very stuck in
a child's place. And so knowing that you're grown versus
actually taking control of your own autonomy, there's two very
different things. So I have trouble sometimes when listeners are like,
(08:33):
I don't know what to do about my parents, because
I'll be like, okay, let them suffer, but this person
sounds like, you know, she really does not want to
do that, despite the fact that she's being verbally abused
by her dad and this is happening even in front
of her son. So that's where I feel like, for me,
the priority is not respecting the cultural differences. It's understanding
(08:54):
that you are continuing to tolerate mistreatment that you don't deserve,
and like you are supporting this man and you really
really do not deserve to be beat up like this
by somebody that you are taken care of. So I
don't know that my method of having a conversation and
(09:15):
saying listen, this is the standard for how I'm treated
in my own home, and if you can't do that,
then you're gonna have to find somewhere else to go.
I don't know that this person, Fiona, would necessarily feel
comfortable with doing that, but that would be my suggestion.
Let's talk about it. Let's be very clear, lay it
(09:35):
out for him. You will not talk to me this way,
and if you continue to do so, I hope you
have somewhere else to go because I will change the locks.
This is my house.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Yeah. I don't think that is a bad thing to consider,
especially because it does not sound like there has been
that conversation right, Like it feels like she has very
much continued in the cycle of where she was as
a child, that this is how it is and this
is how I'm expected to be because he's my dad.
But you can have different conversation now and say, hey,
you know, I have continued to support you, but these
(10:05):
are the rules for what things look like in my
house and if you are wanting to continue staying here, like,
these are the things we have to agree to.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
See. What if he doesn't, though, and he's like, well
then you got it. You can't just make.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
It, Yeah, you can't. It can't be like a boundary
with no follow through, right, Like it has not about
a firm boundary. Yeah, it has to be a boundary,
and then once the boundary is crossed, then you have
to follow through with the consequence, right. And so that
may mean maybe it would be too far to kind
of just put him back on the street, but maybe
that looks like finding him like an assisted living home
(10:37):
or something where you're still supporting him, but it is
not in your home, right and if you don't have
to deal with the constant abuse in that kind.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Of excellent suggestion. I didn't even think of that, But
there is a middle ground. I have to remind myself,
you don't have to go fully to like kick that
man out your life, though she maybe would not be wrong,
and that's what she decided, right, Like, we don't get
to dictate how we then deal with the abuse from
other people, Like they don't get to say you went
(11:07):
too far when they've been the one who belong to us.
I'm so glad you brought that up, because boundaries without
consequences are really just suggestions, and suggestions can be followed
or not. But boundaries are supposed to be rules like
this is the treatment that I deserve and if you
can't do it, then you can't be in my home.
(11:29):
Simple as that or as complicated as that?
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Really, so right right?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Okay? Well Fiona, hope that helps.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Good luck?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, what about you, doctor Joy?
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Thank you? Okay, So my question, I don't have a
name for my person, but how do you navigate the emotional, psychological,
and social distress of a career deferred or that hasn't hatched?
I earned a PhD and was on track as a
budding scholar. A professional riff changed my course, and ten
years later, I'm rebuilding my confidence and re establishing my goals. However,
(12:02):
when I look around at others I started with, went
to school with, and even mentored, I see they're thriving
in ways I have not. I don't know how to
shake my feelings, even though I take responsibility for my
direction and redirection. Now are there others experiencing something similar?
How are they moving through it? What are you doing
to get on the other side? And where do they
pull strength, confidence, and forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
I really would like to know more about what happened
this redirection ten years ago, because it sounds like this
person is taking responsibility, almost as if it was their fault.
I'm really curious about that. But I also maybe not
this exact scenario, but a lot of clients would come
to me saying, you know, they feel like they're not
(12:46):
doing as well as they should, they feel like they're
behind on their peers. That sort of thing, and comparison
is the thief of joy. You look around and you
see what you think everybody else has, and maybe you're
basing that off Instagram, but Instagram is a highlight reel.
You know, most people are not on Instagram telling you
about how bad things are or the deals that didn't
(13:07):
work out or the things that fell through. So it
could be that you feel like other people are surpassing
you professionally, but maybe you're doing other things that they
haven't been able to do, or you know, maybe you've
been focused on other aspects of your life. Again, I'm
really curious about what happened. But like for me, I
(13:28):
definitely since I have been in therapy, have been a
lot less focused on professional goals. I've been a lot
less focused on my career and doing other things because
focusing on my mental health figuring out what was going
on with me and getting to a healthier, calmer place
was my priority for so long. So yeah, I'm sure
(13:49):
there are a lot of other people out there who
was like, oh, my podcast is bigger and I'm doing
these tours and I'm doing that, and like that is
great for you. Run your own race. I really had
to take this time out to take care of me,
focus on me, get my mental health right. Everybody is
moving at different paces. My life is not supposed to
look like anybody else's life, and kind of removing that expectation,
(14:11):
taking the word should out of our vocabulary mentally when
we talk about where we are or where we want
to be, this idea of oh I should be doing
this might really be holding you back.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
I love that so much, Chris, So yeah, I definitely
zeroed in on that shoulding all over herself. But this
idea that my career was going to be this place
and now it's not. It also makes me wonder like
what is stopping her from relaunching and kind of like
picking up where she started because it feels like maybe
she's feeling like the moment has passed. And I think
(14:44):
that there are very few things that happen where you
can't either get back on the same track or continue
on a slightly different path, but like, it's still a
continuation of what you were doing, especially in academics, right,
Like I'm thinking people usually have some field of study
that they are pursuing, and so ten years later, is
the research still not valid? Is there not a way
(15:06):
to kind of do a pivot in, you know, what
you were studying, Because it feels like she's feeling like, Okay,
I can't pick up where I started again for some reason,
and so I'm wondering what's keeping her stuck there? Yes,
that was always confusing to me, is that, like, is
your PhD so niche that you fell out with this
one person and now you cannot work in this field anymore?
(15:27):
Or are you still beating yourself up for something that
was relatively minor and you're struggling to maybe decide what
else you might want to do with your life or
what else.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Your career might look like. It's just not really enough
information there to say for sure, but yeah, it could
be that this person has lots of career options available
to them, but they're stuck on what they thought their
life was going to look like, and they're not really
able to pivot or adapt to these new circumstances.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Mm hmm. Yeah, it's something that kind of also stuck
out with the idea of like rebuilding my confidence, which
to your point about her kind of internalizing this like
it was her fault that this pivot had to happen,
as opposed to it being like the circumstances of the
context around her, And so this rebuilding confidence makes it
feel like she has internalized something about this when it
(16:17):
may not have actually been anything about her that needed
to change in the first place. Right, Yeah, Yeah, but
I agree with you being open to the idea that
your career can be wildly successful in ways that you
did not even imagine. Like ten years ago, I definitely
was not planning on being like a podcaster and like
doing all the things that I'm doing, And so you
(16:38):
just never know, like if you are open to the
process and keep putting one foot in front of the other,
which kind of path you end up walking on that
is just beyond your wildest dreams.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Yes, absolutely be open to what else might be out there.
For sure, I thought I was going to be a lawyer.
Ha ha.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
You we're glad that didn't work.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Out.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Ooh, but thank you so much for this letter, and
I appreciate you. Waying in Chrystal. More from our conversation
after the break. Why do friendship breakups sometimes hurt more
than romantic ones? How do I make friends in a
new city? Is it true that women can't actually be
good friends to one another? I'm exploring all of these
(17:23):
questions and so much more in my book, Sisterhood Heels,
now available in paperback at your local independent bookstore or
at sisterhood Heels dot com. Grab a copy for you
and your girls, and let's talk about it.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I have a quick one here from Jesse, who says,
my best friend just got a great new therapist and
I want her to be my therapist. Is that possible
or is that a conflict of interest?
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Ooh? I love these questions because I feel like it's
such an interesting debate for like friend groups around sharing
a therapist, so to speak. And I think some therapists
have very strict rules about not seeing multiple people in
a system because does it complicate confidentiality? But the truth
is that a lot of us live in places where
(18:15):
that kind of thing is unavoidable. Right if you're in
a small town or whatever, And so I think one
asking your friend if they are okay sharing that information,
because sometimes friends are like, I just want this for
myself and I really would prefer you not to talk
with my therapist. I can maybe help you find somebody else.
But if they're okay with sharing it, then I think
(18:36):
having a conversation with your therapist. Now, the therapist, if
they're ethical, is not going to even acknowledge that they
are your friend's therapists, right, but they can have a
conversation with you about how they protect your confidentiality, how
they protect everybody's confidentiality. I know in previous times, when
I've had supervisors who saw people in systems, they would
(18:57):
be very careful about the scheduling so that you're not
running into each other in the waiting room. Now virtually,
now you know, they're probably not as big of an issue.
But therapists are aware of those kinds of things and
usually can be very creative and scheduling and making sure
they're not conflating who said what during a session and
bringing up a fight that your friend told them about
(19:18):
but it's actually your session. Like, usually therapists are good
at keeping track of all that. Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
I think this was something that I didn't really consider.
I was like, of course, your therapists should not be
seeing your friends or your boyfriend or anybody you know.
But this came up on the show a couple of
years back, where it was like, we live in a
small town, my mom is the only black therapist in town,
and so my friends are seeing my mom, you know,
and it's weird for me. And so yeah, that does happen,
(19:47):
and it can be that you and your friend can
see the same therapists. I fully agree with doctor Joy
about talking to your therapists about it, seeing if they're
even down, because they might not be. But when this
came up for me, when my client was like, ooh,
my grandma could really use a therapist. Can I give
her your number? I said, you can, and I would
(20:09):
be happy to help your grandma find a therapist. But
you are my client. You're my priority, and I don't
want to take on somebody where that might cause me
some sort of conflict in regards to how I treat you.
I think she really needed to hear that, you know that,
like she was the priority, and I'm glad that you're
looking out for the other people in your life. But
(20:31):
you know, we're in New York City, so I could
throw a rock and hit five hundred black therapists. But
I do think that there's something different in the dynamic
of a family member versus a friend, right, because it
could be a friend that you only talk to, you know,
once every quarter, and like there isn't even a lot
of overlap and content versus somebody that you were under
the same roof with, right, and now, therapist definitely will
(20:54):
see families and maybe even break out individually, but it
all is in the interests of the family, and so
there's no secrets with any particular family members. So maybe
I have a conversation with mom, I have a conversation
with dad, then we all come together to talk about
what individually was shared.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
That definitely happens. But I do think therapists are probably
more likely not to take on family members because then
it does become difficult to kind of hold the partiality
for one client over the other.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yes, yeah, especially because you know you've talked to me
about how your grandmother abused you. I don't need to
be going into therapy mad at this lady, right, right,
So you know, let me find her somebody else. So, yeah,
that's a great point about the difference between seeing family
versus friends. Friends. Probably not as sticky of.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Circumstances, exactly, exactly. Yeah, that was a great question, Thank you,
chrissel Okay, I have one that's a little longer, well,
much longer, Okay. Okay. So recently, my best friend, who
is white, deeply hurt me when I ask for financial help.
Months ago, I asked for thirty dollars and she gave
it immediately, telling me not to worry. She's married with
(22:06):
two kids and financially better off. I'm a single mom
living paycheck to paycheck with an ex husband who has
substance abuse issues. I have full custody of my kids,
but only receive part time child support. She knows how
much I struggle and have trouble providing basics for my
children like new shoes and clothes. Despite our different financial lives.
I'm never resentful towards her and genuinely happy for whatever
(22:29):
brings her joy because she's beautiful. I love her, and
I tell her all the time. A few weeks ago,
I only had two dollars in my account with three
days until payday. I texted her that I needed help,
was low on gas and had no dog food, and
that I'd appreciate whatever she could do. She replied, I'm sorry,
I have to talk to my husband because we just
spent fourteen hundred dollars on plane tickets for vacation. We're
(22:52):
taking my mom to dinner for her birthday this weekend,
and I need to get the kids new taekwondo uniforms.
I responded, no worries, I understand, but felt heartbroken and disappointed. Earlier,
I tried asking for help during a conversation, but she
kept interrupting. Other friends and even my unemployed sister have
helped me financially without asking. Reflecting on her family's lifestyle,
(23:15):
I realized she might not understand my struggles. I still
find myself hurt because I saved her as a last
resort when asking for help for some reason, and instead
of saying something like things are tight on my end,
but how much do you need, she launched into having
to ask her husband. I would never ask her for
any amount of money that would require spousal approval. Now
(23:37):
I can't help but notice the difference in our financial
situations and feel ashamed. I feel embarrassed. And less than
and try to pretend everything is normal. But I no
longer want to talk to her about things you speak
to your best friend about, like life, the good and
the bad. Can I get over this? Was I naives
to think that she understood me all these years when
(23:58):
she didn't trust me enough to tell her what that
I needed and didn't ask. I feel like I was
blind to the fact that she never really understand what
I go through as a single black mom of a
twelve year old boy and ten year old girl. And
I should have known better and stuck with my black friends.
Is it me or is she white? It can be both?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Meeting them at a dance all night? Oh man, huh.
I think this person brought up some excellent points about
like if I ask you for fifty dollars or whatever
and you start telling me how you just spent fourteen
hundred on plane tickets and your kids need new karate uniforms,
It's like, are you rubbing it in that you have
(24:38):
all this money and I'm asking for fifty dollars? Like
you could just say, ooh, we've been doing a lot
right now, let me check with my husband. I'll get
back to you, Like I don't think the details of
how she has all this money and where she's spending
it was really necessary. But this is something that was
so challenging for me. And another of the things that
was a huge lesson learned is just how how much
(25:00):
therapy does not fix the things that therapy cannot help
you with. And a lot of that is, you know,
societal problems like money, Like so many of my clients
had to see me virtually because they would not have
been able to leave work, leave their kids, come to
therapy that sort of thing. There's a lot of structural,
(25:22):
systemic barriers in place that therapy can't outdo. And so
hearing you talk about this really breaks my heart because
you sound so ashamed of yourself for circumstances that you
shouldn't have to be in in the first place. And
this is where I start getting real, like free the
world and destroy capitalism. I just don't think in an
(25:45):
ideal world people should have to stress out about food, water, clothing, shelter,
the things we need to stay alive. So I hate
that you are in this position where you're now feeling
ashamed and like you're not good enough. But I also
don't think that was necessarily, not even just her intention,
because intentions aren't all that matter. But I think that
(26:08):
might be How do I say this? I don't want
to be like, girl, you feel bad because of you,
but because that's not it. It's not like you feel
bad because of you. But I think the reality of
the situation may be bringing up these feelings of shaming
you as opposed to her saying or do something specifically
to make you feel ashamed. Not sure, but maybe, but yeah,
(26:30):
what do you think, doctor Joy?
Speaker 1 (26:32):
So I mean, I also feel like, you know, all
of these human needs should just be provided for people.
So I agree with you there, And it does to
me feel like her reaction feels disproportionate to the situation,
and anytime that happens, it feels like there's likely something
deeper going on. And so if in all these years
(26:52):
you haven't questioned before like, oh, is she a good
friend or is she white? And she can't actually be
a good friend, Like, it's interesting to me that this
situation is what has caused you to jump to this place,
And so I do wonder what else is going on
in the dynamic. And to your point, it could be
that you just feel really awful and rightfully so about
(27:12):
where you find yourself, and now you're like mapping that
on to this response from her, yes, which it doesn't
seem like you questioned the friendship before. And so for
all of this to come down to forty dollars feels like, Okay,
this doesn't really feel like it's about that. So I
feel like it may be more going on than we
have access to in the letter.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
I agree, especially because I think she said something like,
I would never ask for an amount of money that
would need spousal approval, But you really don't know what
other people's relationships are like, you don't know what constitutes
a need for spousal approval. I mean, it sounds like
they really did just get done spending a lot of money.
I don't think she needs to go into the details
about that. But you can't say, oh, well, it's not
enough money to ask your husband about. How do you
(27:54):
know how you know what's enough money for me to
ask my husband about? Now? Could that be a cop out?
But we don't necessarily know that. I can see how
a conversation here would really be useful, and I can
also see how that would be difficult to do, especially
if you are already steeped in shame about where you
(28:15):
are now, your living situation, having to take care of
these kids, being a single mom. I can see how
it would be really hard to go to somebody who
seems like they're in a far more stable position and
be like, I feel like you don't understand me or
my life or where I'm coming from. But this is
your best friend, white or not. I think best friends
deserve that consideration, deserve at least the conversation, and if
(28:38):
she responds poorly to it, then I think you know
how to move from there, because even if she can't
provide financial assistance, she can be empathetic. A friend should
at least be able to show empathy for your situation.
But yeah, I agree, it sounds like you've got some
personal stuff going on that's influencing your response to what
(28:59):
she said here.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah. Yeah, And I really appreciate you kind of underscoring
the shame piece because it sounds like it was a
big deal for you to even ask, right like I
saved her as a last resort, like last resort. Yeah,
So it definitely feels like you're feeling really bad, and again,
rightfully so for even having to be in this situation,
but again to not internalize that as any feeling of
(29:22):
your own, but more feeling of the system that has
resulted in you being in this place. Yes, and it
not really being about her, but around all these systems
that are broken. Right.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
It's not your fault that you don't have the support
that you need, Like you said that your children's father
is simply not supporting them the way he should and
that's not your fault. But you are doing the best
you can with the circumstances that you're living within, and
there's no shame in that. Oh, best of luck. That
hurts my heart. I hate to hear people talk about
(29:54):
feeling bad for things that it's like, this is not
a personal failing, you know, this is not your more
failing here. So that sort of thing came up a
lot as a therapist for me, where I'm like, people
are feeling bad for things that are really outside of
their control when they should be feeling proud of themselves
for doing everything they've been able to do despite everything
working against them.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Exactly so exactly. Oh more from our conversation after the break. Okay, well,
my last letter is from Annie, who says my best
friend recently had a baby, and the way she talks
(30:35):
about the baby is starting to concern me. But I
don't want to say that outright because I'm afraid she'll
stop being honest about how she's doing. I'm really the
only person she considers a best friend, and I know
she's not as candid with any of our mutual friends
or family. She's also not in therapy. My friend and
I are both twenty nine. She's been married for about
three years, and she's been with her husband since high school.
(30:55):
They both went into marriage knowing how the other felt
about having kids. My best friend never really cared to
have kids, but she was open to having at least
one as long as they were financially set up, and
she made it clear that she expected her husband to
do the heavy lifting when it came to caring for
the kid. Her husband just wanted kids, so their compromise
was to have one. However, her husband is in the military,
(31:17):
so every three or four years they moved to a
new state. Last year, they moved to a state that
has a lower cost of living than the last, which
meant the military cut the husband's salary by a lot.
My friend is unemployed and has been for many years,
but she claims she does want to find a job.
I say claims because every time I ask about the
job hunt, she gives me a long list of excuses.
(31:38):
Right before she found out she was pregnant, they got
noticed that her husband would be shipped overseas. He was
gone for most of the pregnancy and only got to
come back for ten days to witness the birth and
sort out the paperwork. Her expectation was that he would
be there to help her with the newborn, but obviously
that's impossible given their current situation. He won't get back
until the end of this year, and that's only if
they don't push his return date again. Luckily, she her
(32:00):
parents with her and they take the baby the minute
they get home from work and keep her throughout the night.
But it seems like it's not enough. I regularly get
text from my friend saying that the baby crying is
disturbing her and preventing her from watching her shows, which
is fair, but it is not really in a playful tone. Apparently,
mothers are supposed to pump every two hours or their
milk supply will dry up, and she's refusing, not because
(32:21):
she's against pumping, but in her words, it's just successive
and she don't have time for that. I'm very sensitive
to what she may be feeling mentally, emotionally, and physically.
I know giving birth is not easy, and raising a
newborn without her husband is definitely not what she's signed
up for. So I'm trying very hard to affirm her
and remind her she's allowed to have whatever feeling she
has and to complain about whatever she wants. But I
(32:42):
know my friend, I know how she communicates. I know
when she's just joking, and this feels more like she
truly does not like the child. It's to the point
that I keep wondering what will happen once her parents
leave and she's the sole caretaker. How would you handle this?
I've mentioned my concern to her, but not to the
extent of saying that I'm starting to be concerned for
the bit baby safety. But I am at a loss.
(33:02):
Please help Annie. Yeah, So, as you were talking, my
immediate thought was, is there some postpartum depression email going
on here? Both in terms of just like the whirlwind
that is giving birth, but all of these other factors
that are in the background. Right, So her partner is
not there. Sounds like she had conflicting feelings about having
(33:24):
a baby in the beginning. Now there's a lack of
support even though her family is there to help. I
definitely think she needs to talk with her maybe obgyn
and perhaps a therapist about what's going on. My suggestion
would be it sounds like this is a long standing friendship,
which means she likely knows the parents, and so my
(33:46):
suggestion to Annie would be to maybe talk with her
mom and dad about her concerns and just say, hey,
I think we may need to talk with her doctors
about this to escalate this a bit.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, because she put
in a little PostScript and I do and read it,
but now it's relevant. She said, I don't think my
friend's parents see what I'm saying because they're so in
love with their grandbaby. Plus they're the type to believe
that everything can be healed with prayer and they don't
really believe in therapy.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Oh so yes, wow, Okay, so maybe mom and dad
are not gonna be the route they may be. Yeah. Yeah,
so she may have to kind of be a little
bit more forthright in staging a bit of an intervention
here and say hey, and I don't think you need
(34:32):
to jump to conclusions about I'm afraid you're going to
hurt the baby. I think she can just say like,
I'm really concerned for you, and say say some of
the things she just shared right, like, I know when
you're laughing, I know when you're joking, and it doesn't
feel that way, and I'm really concerned about you because
I think a lot of times, you know, it feels
like after you have a baby, like all the focuses
on the baby, and so having this be like, I'm
(34:54):
really concerned about you, my friend, and I want you
to be well, and maybe offering to go with her
a therapists appointment, are to talk with her obgyn about
what she's feeling, so that you know that a game
plan can be developed.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Yes, I agree. My first thought was also, oh, this
sounds like some postpartums going on here.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
And I agree.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
I think it's this long standing or long running joke
that like, once you have a baby, nobody cares about
you anymore. But I think a lot of moms really
feel that they are now just this person's milk supply
or whatever, and people don't care about them as a
human being anymore. So I would definitely I think doctor
Joy just gave you some excellent advice, and I would
(35:34):
just reinforce the fact that, like I think, you want
your friend to feel that you care about her, you
are worried about her, You are concerned about her. You
can tell when she's joking, and she seemed really down lately.
I don't know if you need to say sounds like postpartum,
but maybe you could say, you know, like my cousin
had a baby and she was feeling blue or whatever,
(35:56):
and they found out she had postpartums. She had to
talk to her doctor and they did this this this
like it could be as simple as just casually suggesting it,
just to plant the seed, and maybe she does talk
to her doctor about it. But I think more than anything,
people need to know that somebody cares about them, and
it's not just about this beautiful baby. I'm sure everybody
loves this baby, but like we're worried about you. We
(36:18):
want you to be good. It doesn't seem like you're good.
So as your friend, as someone who loves you, I
want to do whatever I can to get you to
a place where you're good. Because it sounds like your
parents got the baby covered. The baby isn't gonna be fine, right,
So let's focus on my friend and getting her to
a good place mentally. Of course, doctor Joy knocked that
right out the park.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
I'm blanking on the name, but I think that there's
like organizations of Postpartum Association of America or something like
that may even have a crisis line or like a
warm line that you might be able to call to
get additional support in like how to have this conversation,
and maybe even getting her into like a support group
in her area or a virtual group of other moms
(37:01):
who will also be able to affirm for her why
she may be feeling this way, or like, because I think,
again there's so much shame with the whole child birth experience.
Goal do I not have warm feelings to the child?
And so much of that is normal, especially if there
is a postpartum depression concern, and so getting her connected
to other people who maybe have felt like this could
(37:22):
also be helpful. So like looking into some of those
resources could probably lead her to some other options that
would be good.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Maybe even specifically military moms because of that added component
of the dad not being there, being overseas and you know,
he might come home in December, and he might not,
and there's really nothing you can do about that. So
being able to connect with other women who are like,
oh yeah, girl gave birth alone and raising these kids
by myself. This was not the plan. But here I am.
I think people really need to feel like others can relate,
(37:52):
So maybe something like that would be helpful. But Annie,
you sound like a good friend.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Yeah. I love it. I love that she has you, Annie,
Thank you for that. Yeah. Yeah, Well this has been
so much fun, Chris, so I really appreciate some questions
with you after Joy.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Of course, what I'm honored is like the therapy rock
star right here. So I'm just honored to be sharing
a screen.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Crystal.
This has been tons of fun. We appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Thank you, doctor Joy, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
I want to thank Cristal again for joining me for
these episodes this week. This has been tons of fun
to learn more about her and the work she's doing.
Be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot com, slash listener letters, and don't forget to
text us episodes to two of your girls right now
and tell them to check it out. If you're looking
for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory
(38:46):
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if
you want to continue digging into this topic or just
be in community with other sisters, come on over and
join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner
of the Internet designed just black women. You can join
us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This
episode was produced by ELISEE. Ellis and Zaria Taylor. Editing
(39:09):
was done by Dennison Bradford. We'll be back with our
regular episode next week, but until then, take good care
Speaker 2 (39:20):
What
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for the special bonus episode of the
thing Therapy for Black Girls podcasts. We'll get right into
our conversation after a word from our sponsors. This July,
Therapy for Black Girls is bringing our yearly Minority Mental
Health Month celebration in person to Atlanta, Georgia. Join us
Thursday July eighteenth and Friday July nineteenth as we shine
(01:20):
a light on mental health professionals and all those who
dedicated their careers to holding space for others. Our inaugural
Holding Space for Healers Therapists Summit will gather some of
our favorite voices in the field for workshops, seminars, and
opportunities to connect. You don't want to miss this, so
secure your ticket to wellness by visiting Therapy for Blackgirls
(01:41):
dot com slash Healers. Earlier this week, I got the
chance to chat with the one and only Krystal of
the Read as we discussed her journey to graduating with
her master's degree in mental health counseling. As a special bonus,
we also sat down to answer some of your listener
(02:02):
letters from the read as well as a few questions
that were sent in by members of the TVG community.
We touched on topics such as feeling like you're behind
in your career, setting boundaries with abusive parents, sharing a
therapist with your friends, and more. If something resonates with
you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on
(02:22):
social media using the hashtag TVG in Session or join
us over in the sister Circle to talk more about
the episode. You can join us at community dot Therapy
for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. So I'm super
excited because we are reconvening for another listener letter option.
(02:44):
So it was such a thrill to join you in
Kidfiury on the read years ago to answer some listener questions,
and so I feel like we have a bit of
a crossover with some questions that the Therapy for Black
Girls community has shared, but also a couple of listener
letters from the read that we will share an answer together.
So Chris, you will start with a letter from you all?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Okay, I sure will. This one comes from Fiona, who says,
I'm a thirty three year old mom who has recently
been diagnosed with ADHD after starting therapy. In order to
not repeat the bs my parents did to me with
my own son eight years ago, I broke up with
my son's father after finding out I was pregnant and
moved back home. That was when I discovered that my
(03:25):
father was homeless. To help him out, I signed a
lease for an apartment for him. My dad is a
stubborn Caribbean man who doesn't take care of himself and
ignores his diabetes. One day, he stepped on a nail,
refused to get treatment, and long story short, ultimately lost
his leg. Since he is my dad and I didn't
have a partner at the time, I bought a house
and put my dad's name on it, thinking it would
(03:46):
help him since rent was going up and his pension
was not enough to sustain him. But now four years later,
him just breathing gets on my nerves. When he gets mad,
he cusses me out and says that I'm a bad daughter.
He'll cuss me out for literally anything like buying a
brand of coffee he doesn't like, or accidentally playing the
wrong lotto numbers for him. I bought a dog to
give my dad something to do, but he's still cussing
(04:08):
me out in front of my child. He's probably bored,
but I cannot entertain him. I work a nine to
five and I have a six year old who also
most likely has ADHD. I ask my family on my
mom's side, and they all say I should just ignore him,
that he's losing his mind, and not to take it personally.
My parents divorced when I was thirteen, so that side
of the family really does not care what happens to him.
(04:29):
My parents neglected me and didn't really have time for me.
As a kid, I was alone a lot and learned
to find joy in silence and solitude. Now, after all
this disrespect and stress from my dad, I just want
him out of my house, but he has no means
to live on his own. Any advice you can offer
is more than appreciated. Thanks again, Fiona. Oo.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Wow, there's a lot going on here, isn't there? Yeah? Hm,
So I think I would start by it feels like
there is some self compassion likely needed here for Fiona,
because it sounds like she was trying to make the
best decisions she could to try to help and take
care of dead. But it also sounds like she has
(05:11):
some regrets now, like her saying, oh, him just breathing
gets on my nerves And anytime I hear that, that
is like an instant sign that like, boundaries have been
crossed and you have not maybe done a good enough
job setting clear boundaries for yourself. So I think it's
important for her to forgive herself and to be kind
to herself, that maybe she did some things to try
(05:32):
to help and now she's realizing this is actually no
longer working for me, and so she doesn't need to
be super critical over herself and trying to figure out, Okay,
how do I get out of this maybe, or how
do things look different than maybe what I was thinking
they would look like?
Speaker 2 (05:45):
One of the things that came up a lot in
my program was this emphasis on cultural sensitivity cultural awareness,
understanding that the United States is a very western, independent
and sort of society, whereas a lot of other cultures
are more collectivists. And so I want to be respectful
(06:07):
of the fact that you all are a Caribbean and
maybe in your culture you don't just leave your dad
on the side of the road, but that would I
also struggle. I struggle with this, doctor Joy when people
say my parents abused and neglected me as a child,
and now as an adult, I don't know what to do.
I'm like, abuse and neglect them right back?
Speaker 1 (06:28):
What do you mean?
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Like, I really struggle with that as somebody who has
you know, I have cut my dad off. I do
not speak to him. So if he had nowhere to live,
he would just have nowhere to live. You don't get
to cuss me out in my home. That's how I
feel about it. But then I'm like, oh, well, maybe
that's my americanness coming out. I don't care what happens
(06:50):
to my parents, and so in this question, that's what
it brings up for me, and I guess that's maybe
sort of what I would want to ask you about
is like, where do you think the line is between
advocating for yourself, having boundaries and respecting cultural differences, Because
I feel like sometimes the culture is wrong. Sometimes our
cultures have attitudes that are harmful.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Absolutely, yeah, that's what I was going to say, Like,
I definitely feel like there's a difference between knowing where
it comes from and being okay to continue perpetuating it. Right,
So we can understand that culturally there is this expectation,
but how far are we going to go in the
interest of protecting our own mental health, setting our own
selves up for failure, continuing in relationships where we are
(07:36):
not affirmed and validated in all of these things. And
so I definitely think this could be an example of Okay,
even though the expectation is one thing, in my own
best interest and in the own interests of my child,
I may need to do something different and it isn't
clearly because you didn't try, right, So, I feel like
the cultural expectation was the effort that she's already put
(07:59):
forward to take care dad. But you don't have to
continue to be denegrated and like abused in this situation
when you have some more power now than you did
maybe as a child.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Right. That was what was huge for me as a client,
was I mean, you know it. You know, you're like,
I'm an adult, I don't have to listen to anybody else,
but we can feel and be mentally very stuck in
a child's place. And so knowing that you're grown versus
actually taking control of your own autonomy, there's two very
different things. So I have trouble sometimes when listeners are like,
(08:33):
I don't know what to do about my parents, because
I'll be like, okay, let them suffer, but this person
sounds like, you know, she really does not want to
do that, despite the fact that she's being verbally abused
by her dad and this is happening even in front
of her son. So that's where I feel like, for me,
the priority is not respecting the cultural differences. It's understanding
(08:54):
that you are continuing to tolerate mistreatment that you don't deserve,
and like you are supporting this man and you really
really do not deserve to be beat up like this
by somebody that you are taken care of. So I
don't know that my method of having a conversation and
(09:15):
saying listen, this is the standard for how I'm treated
in my own home, and if you can't do that,
then you're gonna have to find somewhere else to go.
I don't know that this person, Fiona, would necessarily feel
comfortable with doing that, but that would be my suggestion.
Let's talk about it. Let's be very clear, lay it
(09:35):
out for him. You will not talk to me this way,
and if you continue to do so, I hope you
have somewhere else to go because I will change the locks.
This is my house.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Yeah. I don't think that is a bad thing to consider,
especially because it does not sound like there has been
that conversation right, Like it feels like she has very
much continued in the cycle of where she was as
a child, that this is how it is and this
is how I'm expected to be because he's my dad.
But you can have different conversation now and say, hey,
you know, I have continued to support you, but these
(10:05):
are the rules for what things look like in my
house and if you are wanting to continue staying here, like,
these are the things we have to agree to.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
See. What if he doesn't, though, and he's like, well
then you got it. You can't just make.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
It, Yeah, you can't. It can't be like a boundary
with no follow through, right, Like it has not about
a firm boundary. Yeah, it has to be a boundary,
and then once the boundary is crossed, then you have
to follow through with the consequence, right. And so that
may mean maybe it would be too far to kind
of just put him back on the street, but maybe
that looks like finding him like an assisted living home
(10:37):
or something where you're still supporting him, but it is
not in your home, right and if you don't have
to deal with the constant abuse in that kind.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Of excellent suggestion. I didn't even think of that, But
there is a middle ground. I have to remind myself,
you don't have to go fully to like kick that
man out your life, though she maybe would not be wrong,
and that's what she decided, right, Like, we don't get
to dictate how we then deal with the abuse from
other people, Like they don't get to say you went
(11:07):
too far when they've been the one who belong to us.
I'm so glad you brought that up, because boundaries without
consequences are really just suggestions, and suggestions can be followed
or not. But boundaries are supposed to be rules like
this is the treatment that I deserve and if you
can't do it, then you can't be in my home.
(11:29):
Simple as that or as complicated as that?
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Really, so right right?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Okay? Well Fiona, hope that helps.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Good luck?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, what about you, doctor Joy?
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Thank you? Okay, So my question, I don't have a
name for my person, but how do you navigate the emotional, psychological,
and social distress of a career deferred or that hasn't hatched?
I earned a PhD and was on track as a
budding scholar. A professional riff changed my course, and ten
years later, I'm rebuilding my confidence and re establishing my goals. However,
(12:02):
when I look around at others I started with, went
to school with, and even mentored, I see they're thriving
in ways I have not. I don't know how to
shake my feelings, even though I take responsibility for my
direction and redirection. Now are there others experiencing something similar?
How are they moving through it? What are you doing
to get on the other side? And where do they
pull strength, confidence, and forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
I really would like to know more about what happened
this redirection ten years ago, because it sounds like this
person is taking responsibility, almost as if it was their fault.
I'm really curious about that. But I also maybe not
this exact scenario, but a lot of clients would come
to me saying, you know, they feel like they're not
(12:46):
doing as well as they should, they feel like they're
behind on their peers. That sort of thing, and comparison
is the thief of joy. You look around and you
see what you think everybody else has, and maybe you're
basing that off Instagram, but Instagram is a highlight reel.
You know, most people are not on Instagram telling you
about how bad things are or the deals that didn't
(13:07):
work out or the things that fell through. So it
could be that you feel like other people are surpassing
you professionally, but maybe you're doing other things that they
haven't been able to do, or you know, maybe you've
been focused on other aspects of your life. Again, I'm
really curious about what happened. But like for me, I
(13:28):
definitely since I have been in therapy, have been a
lot less focused on professional goals. I've been a lot
less focused on my career and doing other things because
focusing on my mental health figuring out what was going
on with me and getting to a healthier, calmer place
was my priority for so long. So yeah, I'm sure
(13:49):
there are a lot of other people out there who
was like, oh, my podcast is bigger and I'm doing
these tours and I'm doing that, and like that is
great for you. Run your own race. I really had
to take this time out to take care of me,
focus on me, get my mental health right. Everybody is
moving at different paces. My life is not supposed to
look like anybody else's life, and kind of removing that expectation,
(14:11):
taking the word should out of our vocabulary mentally when
we talk about where we are or where we want
to be, this idea of oh I should be doing
this might really be holding you back.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
I love that so much, Chris, So yeah, I definitely
zeroed in on that shoulding all over herself. But this
idea that my career was going to be this place
and now it's not. It also makes me wonder like
what is stopping her from relaunching and kind of like
picking up where she started because it feels like maybe
she's feeling like the moment has passed. And I think
(14:44):
that there are very few things that happen where you
can't either get back on the same track or continue
on a slightly different path, but like, it's still a
continuation of what you were doing, especially in academics, right,
Like I'm thinking people usually have some field of study
that they are pursuing, and so ten years later, is
the research still not valid? Is there not a way
(15:06):
to kind of do a pivot in, you know, what
you were studying, Because it feels like she's feeling like, Okay,
I can't pick up where I started again for some reason,
and so I'm wondering what's keeping her stuck there? Yes,
that was always confusing to me, is that, like, is
your PhD so niche that you fell out with this
one person and now you cannot work in this field anymore?
(15:27):
Or are you still beating yourself up for something that
was relatively minor and you're struggling to maybe decide what
else you might want to do with your life or
what else.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Your career might look like. It's just not really enough
information there to say for sure, but yeah, it could
be that this person has lots of career options available
to them, but they're stuck on what they thought their
life was going to look like, and they're not really
able to pivot or adapt to these new circumstances.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Mm hmm. Yeah, it's something that kind of also stuck
out with the idea of like rebuilding my confidence, which
to your point about her kind of internalizing this like
it was her fault that this pivot had to happen,
as opposed to it being like the circumstances of the
context around her, And so this rebuilding confidence makes it
feel like she has internalized something about this when it
(16:17):
may not have actually been anything about her that needed
to change in the first place. Right, Yeah, Yeah, but
I agree with you being open to the idea that
your career can be wildly successful in ways that you
did not even imagine. Like ten years ago, I definitely
was not planning on being like a podcaster and like
doing all the things that I'm doing, And so you
(16:38):
just never know, like if you are open to the
process and keep putting one foot in front of the other,
which kind of path you end up walking on that
is just beyond your wildest dreams.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Yes, absolutely be open to what else might be out there.
For sure, I thought I was going to be a lawyer.
Ha ha.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
You we're glad that didn't work.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Out.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Ooh, but thank you so much for this letter, and
I appreciate you. Waying in Chrystal. More from our conversation
after the break. Why do friendship breakups sometimes hurt more
than romantic ones? How do I make friends in a
new city? Is it true that women can't actually be
good friends to one another? I'm exploring all of these
(17:23):
questions and so much more in my book, Sisterhood Heels,
now available in paperback at your local independent bookstore or
at sisterhood Heels dot com. Grab a copy for you
and your girls, and let's talk about it.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I have a quick one here from Jesse, who says,
my best friend just got a great new therapist and
I want her to be my therapist. Is that possible
or is that a conflict of interest?
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Ooh? I love these questions because I feel like it's
such an interesting debate for like friend groups around sharing
a therapist, so to speak. And I think some therapists
have very strict rules about not seeing multiple people in
a system because does it complicate confidentiality? But the truth
is that a lot of us live in places where
(18:15):
that kind of thing is unavoidable. Right if you're in
a small town or whatever, And so I think one
asking your friend if they are okay sharing that information,
because sometimes friends are like, I just want this for
myself and I really would prefer you not to talk
with my therapist. I can maybe help you find somebody else.
But if they're okay with sharing it, then I think
(18:36):
having a conversation with your therapist. Now, the therapist, if
they're ethical, is not going to even acknowledge that they
are your friend's therapists, right, but they can have a
conversation with you about how they protect your confidentiality, how
they protect everybody's confidentiality. I know in previous times, when
I've had supervisors who saw people in systems, they would
(18:57):
be very careful about the scheduling so that you're not
running into each other in the waiting room. Now virtually,
now you know, they're probably not as big of an issue.
But therapists are aware of those kinds of things and
usually can be very creative and scheduling and making sure
they're not conflating who said what during a session and
bringing up a fight that your friend told them about
(19:18):
but it's actually your session. Like, usually therapists are good
at keeping track of all that. Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
I think this was something that I didn't really consider.
I was like, of course, your therapists should not be
seeing your friends or your boyfriend or anybody you know.
But this came up on the show a couple of
years back, where it was like, we live in a
small town, my mom is the only black therapist in town,
and so my friends are seeing my mom, you know,
and it's weird for me. And so yeah, that does happen,
(19:47):
and it can be that you and your friend can
see the same therapists. I fully agree with doctor Joy
about talking to your therapists about it, seeing if they're
even down, because they might not be. But when this
came up for me, when my client was like, ooh,
my grandma could really use a therapist. Can I give
her your number? I said, you can, and I would
(20:09):
be happy to help your grandma find a therapist. But
you are my client. You're my priority, and I don't
want to take on somebody where that might cause me
some sort of conflict in regards to how I treat you.
I think she really needed to hear that, you know that,
like she was the priority, and I'm glad that you're
looking out for the other people in your life. But
(20:31):
you know, we're in New York City, so I could
throw a rock and hit five hundred black therapists. But
I do think that there's something different in the dynamic
of a family member versus a friend, right, because it
could be a friend that you only talk to, you know,
once every quarter, and like there isn't even a lot
of overlap and content versus somebody that you were under
the same roof with, right, and now, therapist definitely will
(20:54):
see families and maybe even break out individually, but it
all is in the interests of the family, and so
there's no secrets with any particular family members. So maybe
I have a conversation with mom, I have a conversation
with dad, then we all come together to talk about
what individually was shared.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
That definitely happens. But I do think therapists are probably
more likely not to take on family members because then
it does become difficult to kind of hold the partiality
for one client over the other.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yes, yeah, especially because you know you've talked to me
about how your grandmother abused you. I don't need to
be going into therapy mad at this lady, right, right,
So you know, let me find her somebody else. So, yeah,
that's a great point about the difference between seeing family
versus friends. Friends. Probably not as sticky of.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Circumstances, exactly, exactly. Yeah, that was a great question, Thank you,
chrissel Okay, I have one that's a little longer, well,
much longer, Okay. Okay. So recently, my best friend, who
is white, deeply hurt me when I ask for financial help.
Months ago, I asked for thirty dollars and she gave
it immediately, telling me not to worry. She's married with
(22:06):
two kids and financially better off. I'm a single mom
living paycheck to paycheck with an ex husband who has
substance abuse issues. I have full custody of my kids,
but only receive part time child support. She knows how
much I struggle and have trouble providing basics for my
children like new shoes and clothes. Despite our different financial lives.
I'm never resentful towards her and genuinely happy for whatever
(22:29):
brings her joy because she's beautiful. I love her, and
I tell her all the time. A few weeks ago,
I only had two dollars in my account with three
days until payday. I texted her that I needed help,
was low on gas and had no dog food, and
that I'd appreciate whatever she could do. She replied, I'm sorry,
I have to talk to my husband because we just
spent fourteen hundred dollars on plane tickets for vacation. We're
(22:52):
taking my mom to dinner for her birthday this weekend,
and I need to get the kids new taekwondo uniforms.
I responded, no worries, I understand, but felt heartbroken and disappointed. Earlier,
I tried asking for help during a conversation, but she
kept interrupting. Other friends and even my unemployed sister have
helped me financially without asking. Reflecting on her family's lifestyle,
(23:15):
I realized she might not understand my struggles. I still
find myself hurt because I saved her as a last
resort when asking for help for some reason, and instead
of saying something like things are tight on my end,
but how much do you need, she launched into having
to ask her husband. I would never ask her for
any amount of money that would require spousal approval. Now
(23:37):
I can't help but notice the difference in our financial
situations and feel ashamed. I feel embarrassed. And less than
and try to pretend everything is normal. But I no
longer want to talk to her about things you speak
to your best friend about, like life, the good and
the bad. Can I get over this? Was I naives
to think that she understood me all these years when
(23:58):
she didn't trust me enough to tell her what that
I needed and didn't ask. I feel like I was
blind to the fact that she never really understand what
I go through as a single black mom of a
twelve year old boy and ten year old girl. And
I should have known better and stuck with my black friends.
Is it me or is she white? It can be both?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Meeting them at a dance all night? Oh man, huh.
I think this person brought up some excellent points about
like if I ask you for fifty dollars or whatever
and you start telling me how you just spent fourteen
hundred on plane tickets and your kids need new karate uniforms,
It's like, are you rubbing it in that you have
(24:38):
all this money and I'm asking for fifty dollars? Like
you could just say, ooh, we've been doing a lot
right now, let me check with my husband. I'll get
back to you, Like I don't think the details of
how she has all this money and where she's spending
it was really necessary. But this is something that was
so challenging for me. And another of the things that
was a huge lesson learned is just how how much
(25:00):
therapy does not fix the things that therapy cannot help
you with. And a lot of that is, you know,
societal problems like money, Like so many of my clients
had to see me virtually because they would not have
been able to leave work, leave their kids, come to
therapy that sort of thing. There's a lot of structural,
(25:22):
systemic barriers in place that therapy can't outdo. And so
hearing you talk about this really breaks my heart because
you sound so ashamed of yourself for circumstances that you
shouldn't have to be in in the first place. And
this is where I start getting real, like free the
world and destroy capitalism. I just don't think in an
(25:45):
ideal world people should have to stress out about food, water, clothing, shelter,
the things we need to stay alive. So I hate
that you are in this position where you're now feeling
ashamed and like you're not good enough. But I also
don't think that was necessarily, not even just her intention,
because intentions aren't all that matter. But I think that
(26:08):
might be How do I say this? I don't want
to be like, girl, you feel bad because of you,
but because that's not it. It's not like you feel
bad because of you. But I think the reality of
the situation may be bringing up these feelings of shaming
you as opposed to her saying or do something specifically
to make you feel ashamed. Not sure, but maybe, but yeah,
(26:30):
what do you think, doctor Joy?
Speaker 1 (26:32):
So I mean, I also feel like, you know, all
of these human needs should just be provided for people.
So I agree with you there, And it does to
me feel like her reaction feels disproportionate to the situation,
and anytime that happens, it feels like there's likely something
deeper going on. And so if in all these years
(26:52):
you haven't questioned before like, oh, is she a good
friend or is she white? And she can't actually be
a good friend, Like, it's interesting to me that this
situation is what has caused you to jump to this place,
And so I do wonder what else is going on
in the dynamic. And to your point, it could be
that you just feel really awful and rightfully so about
(27:12):
where you find yourself, and now you're like mapping that
on to this response from her, yes, which it doesn't
seem like you questioned the friendship before. And so for
all of this to come down to forty dollars feels like, Okay,
this doesn't really feel like it's about that. So I
feel like it may be more going on than we
have access to in the letter.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
I agree, especially because I think she said something like,
I would never ask for an amount of money that
would need spousal approval, But you really don't know what
other people's relationships are like, you don't know what constitutes
a need for spousal approval. I mean, it sounds like
they really did just get done spending a lot of money.
I don't think she needs to go into the details
about that. But you can't say, oh, well, it's not
enough money to ask your husband about. How do you
(27:54):
know how you know what's enough money for me to
ask my husband about? Now? Could that be a cop out?
But we don't necessarily know that. I can see how
a conversation here would really be useful, and I can
also see how that would be difficult to do, especially
if you are already steeped in shame about where you
(28:15):
are now, your living situation, having to take care of
these kids, being a single mom. I can see how
it would be really hard to go to somebody who
seems like they're in a far more stable position and
be like, I feel like you don't understand me or
my life or where I'm coming from. But this is
your best friend, white or not. I think best friends
deserve that consideration, deserve at least the conversation, and if
(28:38):
she responds poorly to it, then I think you know
how to move from there, because even if she can't
provide financial assistance, she can be empathetic. A friend should
at least be able to show empathy for your situation.
But yeah, I agree, it sounds like you've got some
personal stuff going on that's influencing your response to what
(28:59):
she said here.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah. Yeah, And I really appreciate you kind of underscoring
the shame piece because it sounds like it was a
big deal for you to even ask, right like I
saved her as a last resort, like last resort. Yeah,
So it definitely feels like you're feeling really bad, and again,
rightfully so for even having to be in this situation,
but again to not internalize that as any feeling of
(29:22):
your own, but more feeling of the system that has
resulted in you being in this place. Yes, and it
not really being about her, but around all these systems
that are broken. Right.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
It's not your fault that you don't have the support
that you need, Like you said that your children's father
is simply not supporting them the way he should and
that's not your fault. But you are doing the best
you can with the circumstances that you're living within, and
there's no shame in that. Oh, best of luck. That
hurts my heart. I hate to hear people talk about
(29:54):
feeling bad for things that it's like, this is not
a personal failing, you know, this is not your more
failing here. So that sort of thing came up a
lot as a therapist for me, where I'm like, people
are feeling bad for things that are really outside of
their control when they should be feeling proud of themselves
for doing everything they've been able to do despite everything
working against them.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Exactly so exactly. Oh more from our conversation after the break. Okay, well,
my last letter is from Annie, who says my best
friend recently had a baby, and the way she talks
(30:35):
about the baby is starting to concern me. But I
don't want to say that outright because I'm afraid she'll
stop being honest about how she's doing. I'm really the
only person she considers a best friend, and I know
she's not as candid with any of our mutual friends
or family. She's also not in therapy. My friend and
I are both twenty nine. She's been married for about
three years, and she's been with her husband since high school.
(30:55):
They both went into marriage knowing how the other felt
about having kids. My best friend never really cared to
have kids, but she was open to having at least
one as long as they were financially set up, and
she made it clear that she expected her husband to
do the heavy lifting when it came to caring for
the kid. Her husband just wanted kids, so their compromise
was to have one. However, her husband is in the military,
(31:17):
so every three or four years they moved to a
new state. Last year, they moved to a state that
has a lower cost of living than the last, which
meant the military cut the husband's salary by a lot.
My friend is unemployed and has been for many years,
but she claims she does want to find a job.
I say claims because every time I ask about the
job hunt, she gives me a long list of excuses.
(31:38):
Right before she found out she was pregnant, they got
noticed that her husband would be shipped overseas. He was
gone for most of the pregnancy and only got to
come back for ten days to witness the birth and
sort out the paperwork. Her expectation was that he would
be there to help her with the newborn, but obviously
that's impossible given their current situation. He won't get back
until the end of this year, and that's only if
they don't push his return date again. Luckily, she her
(32:00):
parents with her and they take the baby the minute
they get home from work and keep her throughout the night.
But it seems like it's not enough. I regularly get
text from my friend saying that the baby crying is
disturbing her and preventing her from watching her shows, which
is fair, but it is not really in a playful tone. Apparently,
mothers are supposed to pump every two hours or their
milk supply will dry up, and she's refusing, not because
(32:21):
she's against pumping, but in her words, it's just successive
and she don't have time for that. I'm very sensitive
to what she may be feeling mentally, emotionally, and physically.
I know giving birth is not easy, and raising a
newborn without her husband is definitely not what she's signed
up for. So I'm trying very hard to affirm her
and remind her she's allowed to have whatever feeling she
has and to complain about whatever she wants. But I
(32:42):
know my friend, I know how she communicates. I know
when she's just joking, and this feels more like she
truly does not like the child. It's to the point
that I keep wondering what will happen once her parents
leave and she's the sole caretaker. How would you handle this?
I've mentioned my concern to her, but not to the
extent of saying that I'm starting to be concerned for
the bit baby safety. But I am at a loss.
(33:02):
Please help Annie. Yeah, So, as you were talking, my
immediate thought was, is there some postpartum depression email going
on here? Both in terms of just like the whirlwind
that is giving birth, but all of these other factors
that are in the background. Right, So her partner is
not there. Sounds like she had conflicting feelings about having
(33:24):
a baby in the beginning. Now there's a lack of
support even though her family is there to help. I
definitely think she needs to talk with her maybe obgyn
and perhaps a therapist about what's going on. My suggestion
would be it sounds like this is a long standing friendship,
which means she likely knows the parents, and so my
(33:46):
suggestion to Annie would be to maybe talk with her
mom and dad about her concerns and just say, hey,
I think we may need to talk with her doctors
about this to escalate this a bit.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, because she put
in a little PostScript and I do and read it,
but now it's relevant. She said, I don't think my
friend's parents see what I'm saying because they're so in
love with their grandbaby. Plus they're the type to believe
that everything can be healed with prayer and they don't
really believe in therapy.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Oh so yes, wow, Okay, so maybe mom and dad
are not gonna be the route they may be. Yeah. Yeah,
so she may have to kind of be a little
bit more forthright in staging a bit of an intervention
here and say hey, and I don't think you need
(34:32):
to jump to conclusions about I'm afraid you're going to
hurt the baby. I think she can just say like,
I'm really concerned for you, and say say some of
the things she just shared right, like, I know when
you're laughing, I know when you're joking, and it doesn't
feel that way, and I'm really concerned about you because
I think a lot of times, you know, it feels
like after you have a baby, like all the focuses
on the baby, and so having this be like, I'm
(34:54):
really concerned about you, my friend, and I want you
to be well, and maybe offering to go with her
a therapists appointment, are to talk with her obgyn about
what she's feeling, so that you know that a game
plan can be developed.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Yes, I agree. My first thought was also, oh, this
sounds like some postpartums going on here.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
And I agree.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
I think it's this long standing or long running joke
that like, once you have a baby, nobody cares about
you anymore. But I think a lot of moms really
feel that they are now just this person's milk supply
or whatever, and people don't care about them as a
human being anymore. So I would definitely I think doctor
Joy just gave you some excellent advice, and I would
(35:34):
just reinforce the fact that, like I think, you want
your friend to feel that you care about her, you
are worried about her, You are concerned about her. You
can tell when she's joking, and she seemed really down lately.
I don't know if you need to say sounds like postpartum,
but maybe you could say, you know, like my cousin
had a baby and she was feeling blue or whatever,
(35:56):
and they found out she had postpartums. She had to
talk to her doctor and they did this this this
like it could be as simple as just casually suggesting it,
just to plant the seed, and maybe she does talk
to her doctor about it. But I think more than anything,
people need to know that somebody cares about them, and
it's not just about this beautiful baby. I'm sure everybody
loves this baby, but like we're worried about you. We
(36:18):
want you to be good. It doesn't seem like you're good.
So as your friend, as someone who loves you, I
want to do whatever I can to get you to
a place where you're good. Because it sounds like your
parents got the baby covered. The baby isn't gonna be fine, right,
So let's focus on my friend and getting her to
a good place mentally. Of course, doctor Joy knocked that
right out the park.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
I'm blanking on the name, but I think that there's
like organizations of Postpartum Association of America or something like
that may even have a crisis line or like a
warm line that you might be able to call to
get additional support in like how to have this conversation,
and maybe even getting her into like a support group
in her area or a virtual group of other moms
(37:01):
who will also be able to affirm for her why
she may be feeling this way, or like, because I think,
again there's so much shame with the whole child birth experience.
Goal do I not have warm feelings to the child?
And so much of that is normal, especially if there
is a postpartum depression concern, and so getting her connected
to other people who maybe have felt like this could
(37:22):
also be helpful. So like looking into some of those
resources could probably lead her to some other options that
would be good.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Maybe even specifically military moms because of that added component
of the dad not being there, being overseas and you know,
he might come home in December, and he might not,
and there's really nothing you can do about that. So
being able to connect with other women who are like,
oh yeah, girl gave birth alone and raising these kids
by myself. This was not the plan. But here I am.
I think people really need to feel like others can relate,
(37:52):
So maybe something like that would be helpful. But Annie,
you sound like a good friend.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Yeah. I love it. I love that she has you, Annie,
Thank you for that. Yeah. Yeah, Well this has been
so much fun, Chris, so I really appreciate some questions
with you after Joy.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Of course, what I'm honored is like the therapy rock
star right here. So I'm just honored to be sharing
a screen.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Crystal.
This has been tons of fun. We appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Thank you, doctor Joy, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
I want to thank Cristal again for joining me for
these episodes this week. This has been tons of fun
to learn more about her and the work she's doing.
Be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot com, slash listener letters, and don't forget to
text us episodes to two of your girls right now
and tell them to check it out. If you're looking
for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory
(38:46):
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if
you want to continue digging into this topic or just
be in community with other sisters, come on over and
join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner
of the Internet designed just black women. You can join
us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This
episode was produced by ELISEE. Ellis and Zaria Taylor. Editing
(39:09):
was done by Dennison Bradford. We'll be back with our
regular episode next week, but until then, take good care
Speaker 2 (39:20):
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