Session 271: Being Mindful About How We Use Mental Health Terminology

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope
you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it
is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship
with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so

(00:57):
much for joining me for session to seventy one of
the Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into
our conversation after a word from our sponsors. Over the
past few years, you've probably found yourself online viewing and

(01:18):
reacting to bite size pieces of mental health information. The
difficult part of navigating the intowebs is deciphering information from misinformation,
especially as it relates to our mental health. At times,
in an attempt to better understand ourselves in the world
we live in, we digest and share pieces of information
that we don't fully understand or properly reflect our experiences. Take,

(01:41):
for example, the terms trauma, bonding, gaslighting, and narcissism, all
terms that you've probably heard before and maybe even us
in your everyday life, but are you using them correctly?
Joining me today for another one of our group chat
conversations are my friends and colleagues, dr Ayana Abrams and
Dr Joy back with both psychologists in Atlanta, and our conversation,

(02:05):
we break down the definition of key terms we've noticed
people using and misusing online, how and why that language
will shared incorrectly, and we share suggestions on how to
be mindful around information online. If something resonates with you
while enjoying our conversation, share it with us on social
media using the hashtag tpg in session, or join us

(02:27):
over in the sister circles to talk more in depth
about the episode. You can join us at community that
Therapy for Black Girls dot com. Here's our conversation. So
the group chat has assembled once again, and I'm excited
to chat with y'all about some of the terms that
it feels like have been used very widely, I think,

(02:49):
mostly on social media that are often it feels like
being either misused or used incorrectly altogether. So I know
that you have also seen me memes and people sharing
all this stuff, and so I just wanted to get
your take on some of these terms that that I
think people should just be really careful about. So the

(03:09):
one that comes to mind first is trauma bonding. So
look at the collective side from both of you. So,
how are you all mostly seeing this use and what
do we want to clarify for people about what trauma
bonding is. Unfortunately, I'm mostly seeing it used by therapists

(03:31):
on Instagram, therapists like therapy coaches on Instagram, which I
think comes up in a lot of ways. I think
what has happened largely is that therapists have started I'm
included right this way of trying to offer psychological education
in bite size formats through images or i g. Stories
or carousels. So I think we have been introducing psychological

(03:55):
language to the community. And because they're not in therapy,
you're gonna have a based, like really kind of hone
in on stuff. A lot of people have run with
those things in a lot of ways. I think it's
our fault. I think we did this. I think we
created this, and we'll let me not completely and I
think the mental health system, if we talk about kind

(04:15):
of systemically, right, the reason we are doing this is
because we know that most people don't have access to
mental health care, and we are trying to offer right
some freeway for people to get some access to something
more than what they have. But I think it's turned
into now its own industry of that kind of psychological education.
And that was one of the first ones that we
began talking about. I think because a lot of therapists

(04:36):
work with clients who are navigating or kind of dealing
with trauma or kind of you know, consequences of traumatic situations,
and then you pair it with a lot of people
needing relationship help. We've got this trauma bond. I don't
know the difference between misinformation and disinformation, but that no,
I agree, Dr A. I think we did it, and
I think, you know, for for all the reasons that

(04:57):
perhaps were intended to be good reasons, like how can
we start talking about these relationships that perhaps are unhealthy
in a way that is a little bit casual. It's like, okay,
so perhaps this is what's going on, and we've made
it a term where you can kind of latch on
and you know, has the trauma there, so it's like, Okay,
this is trauma related and oh the connection, it's a

(05:18):
bond that you have. So I think we like we
did it in terms of making it where we're raising
I guess, like public awareness about kind of the dynamics
of these relationships. But there's some pros and cons to
speaking of it in this way. And as we see,
then everybody is trauma bonding, so we're not really talking
about what exactly is So before you know it, it's like, oh,
I went to the grocery store and that's what happened.

(05:39):
I was trauma bonding with the cashier. No, you were not,
you know, So we're now we're using this term and
really not talking about exactly what is it and what
are the potential dangerous involved when we trauma bond. So
I think it came out with one intention and then
it grew wings and it's yeah, taken over. Taken over,

(06:00):
I mean, because you know, I think the traditional definition
of trauma bonding is much more like us Stockholm syndrome, correct, Like,
it is more like you have been through a traumatic
experience and then you in some ways empathize with your perpetrator, right,
and so, but what it feels like it's commonly used
is you know, like oh, I have a traumatic experience,

(06:21):
and then I share my traumatic experience with somebody and
they had a traumatic experience, and so we then bonded
over our trauma, which is not the same thing. I mean,
it sounds very like it would make sense, right like, oh,
we bonded over trauma, but that's not actually trauma bonding. Yeah,
and you don't want to necessarily bond over your trauma.
So it feels like now we have trauma bonding circles

(06:42):
and it's like, oh, we've all experienced like this trauma
and we're bonding over that. And it's like, well, although
it's helpful for us to talk about the trauma that
we've been through, it's like we also don't want to,
you know, ruminating doesn't help, and kind of staying there
does not do anything for who I'm talking to about
my trauma. So yeah, so it's gone away from the
original definition. And then your trauma, my trauma. We've experienced it,

(07:05):
But where's the help, you know, what are we doing
now instead of like, Okay, I've experienced this, and then
we go online and we're making reels and TikTok videos
about the trauma that we've all experienced as a result
of whatever. So it's just not helpful if we, you know,
continue letting it be used loosely like this. And I
think largely people still do not understand what trauma is.

(07:28):
I'm seeing a lot of blurriness between right things that
people experience as trauma versus things that are unpleasant, things
that you know, people that people remember from the past
that were unpleasant experiences, and that is also still very
different from a traumatic experience. And I think again, because
all of that gets lost right because of how we
are learning about this in these sound bites and in
these instagram clips. You're not working with somebody who can

(07:50):
really help you understand and discern that because you remember
something unpleasant that happened doesn't mean that was a traumatic experience.
Because anything happened that you didn't like or was unexpected
or that was painful for a while also doesn't mean
that that was traumatic for you. So I think that
even the conversation abound trauma and trauma bonding also really

(08:11):
dilutes what people can understand or accepted about like the
human experience that there are things that will happen that
are not okay, that you didn't want, that you didn't like.
But that doesn't always mean that you have been traumatized
in some way and that you are a trauma survivor, right,
or that that you now have this new identity because
things didn't happen in a certain way, or that you

(08:32):
were hurt or that things harmed you. Harmful things also
don't equate to trauma. It's a whole it's a fuller experience.
And I think that if you are not working with
someone professionally or kind of have more kind of a
sensibility around that than yes, your narrative would be that
everything has been trauma for you. And I think that again,

(08:53):
social media, unfortunately, can help promote that same theme or theory.
We see a lot of these posts that say all
the different things are trauma, You've been traumatized, if this
or this is a trauma response. That's the other one
that kind of comes with this. Yes, yes, yes, not
liking apples is a trauma response, right. It's a're desiring

(09:15):
to eat all of your food on your plate and
having difficulty throwing it away or walking away from it
is a trauma response because maybe it's a child, you
didn't have food, you know, just yeah, everything is a trauma,
so that all of that goes together. It's the same
way in which we have really diluted what trauma is,
which I think also then serves to to be harmful
to people who have had traumatic experiences because now people

(09:38):
are having a harder time naming that, they're feeling more
confused around that, they're feeling invalidated by like, well, if
that's trauma, what is this? What was my experience of it?
That's what you're talking about. It minimizes the seriousness of trauma.
You know that you can experience things that are unpleasant,
that are negative, and it not necessarily means that I

(10:00):
have PTSD as a result of that. And so, yeah,
you're right. We have someone else who endured something where
harm or death or the idea of serious death you know,
was actually real, and they have nightmares, they have these memories,
they have severe anxiety, they're waiting for the other shoe
to drop. And so you're listening to someone say that
this experience at the grocery store was you know, traumatic

(10:22):
for them, or they have PTSD as a result, and
you're looking at your thing and it's like, oh my gosh,
what is happening with me? And I think that's what
people are bonding over. They have these experiences and it's
like why do I behave this way and why do
I act this way? And it's not necessarily trauma. It's like, ooh,
we've had this shared experience. It does not mean I
have PTSD from my childhood or from my relationship, and

(10:43):
we need to talk about that in that way. But
if you are, you know, having nightmares, if you are
having severe anxiety, if you are unable to kind of
function as a result of kind of what's happened to you,
that's a different thing and it requires a different intervention.
But I think it's all gotten lost. So where the
public awareness is, there's like awareness of what yeah, yeah,

(11:04):
so I mean so it does feel like there's a
growing conversation and under you have all heard it about it,
you know, big T trauma versus little T trauma, right,
and so it feels like there is space and I
think rightfully so for us to like expand our understanding
of all the things that could be trauma, right, I
think for a long time we thought only war and
like you know, seeing somebody's shot were traumatic experiences. So

(11:26):
of course now we understand that there are tons of
other things that can be traumatic. How do we help
people differentiate what is considered trauma? Like what are the
guidelines around what we can define as trauma versus something
that may have been unpleasant but may not necessarily fall
within the realms of trauma. I think like when in doubt,
I go back to what it is that we know,

(11:48):
like you know, our d s M for example, It's like,
I really do want to go back to how do
we define something that is, like, you know, traumatic, Like
what are so I can validate your experience and the
fext of your experience without necessarily saying you need to
be labeled as having trauma or labeled as having PTSD
and sometimes helping you to understand like, hey, this is

(12:09):
what happened, So do you have clarity? Is it PTSD
or is it necessarily traumatic? Like that was a horrible experience,
a very unfortunate, unfair experience, but really going back to, okay,
what are the results of that experience, and so that
they can see clearly, okay, everything isn't traumatic, but I
do have increased anxiety, I am having nightmares, I am
detached or I am kind of dissociating or detaching from experiences.

(12:32):
I do feel numb, so really going through with them.
So it's not discrediting your experience or saying that's traumatic
and that's not traumatic, but saying hey, here's how we
define trauma and let's look at it, and having them
to help me with Okay, is this what your experience is?
And so you tell me if this is considered very
traumatic for you based on this criterion definition. So there's

(12:52):
no bias in there. So they get to step outside
of the experience a little bit themselves and see, okay,
you know what, this was severe, this was very impact fold.
There's some residual stuff, and so they can decide what
is traumatic and what is not traumatic. So I love standards,
I love some procedures there. I love something that is
common language, that is research based, and so when they
do experience something traumatically hopefully not, it's like, okay, now

(13:14):
that's what this is. And so also I don't like
people to walk away and it's like, hey, I have
trauma from my past relationship and so now you've labeled
yourself as this person with significant trauma will know you
were greatly heartbroken, you even perhaps were depressed as a
result of your last relationship. But I don't want you
to give yourself labels in terms that are not founded
or grounded in any research that don't have any basis.

(13:36):
So I always go back to how do we define it?
And having them to help us with is this your experience?
That is the crux, right of what gets missed in
social media exchanges or interactions. There's not room for kind
of that deeper process and not even having kind of
the language right or their criteria to be able to
kind of in a deeper way kind of process or
kind of explore where anybody might fall right on any

(13:58):
of that spectrum. And I think what also gets missed
the conversations that I'm able to have with clients, you know,
trauma does come up is one we are also continue
to assess for safety. So I'll talk to clients a
lot about ways in which I tend to differentiate how
I'm hearing their narratives and how they're experiencing their bodies.
Is that something happens, either they have an experience, they
witness something that hears something the vicarious trauma that changes

(14:21):
their sense of safety in the world, and that we're
still also looking at these criteria because if that sense
of safety has changed, then you might be feeling more anxious,
you might be feeling more depressed, you might be feeling
more numb. Right, So kind of pairing that with has
something shifted in terms of how safe you feel in
this world, in this dynamic, in this area, in this relationship,
in whatever it might be. And that is a way

(14:42):
in which I can help kind of bridges the gap
right between the criteria and the subjective experience of this right,
which is why I recognize that on the flip side
of that, I know we also say, like, you can't
tell somebody they weren't traumatized by something, right, because it's
about their subjective experience of this thing. But what I'm
always look king form and assessing is safety did something shift?

(15:04):
Where now the way in which you experience your sense
of safety and security in this scenario like environment, has
that been inevitably shifted after this thing happened Historically, Like
you were saying, Dr Joy that you were only allowed
to name trauma as it related to war, a car
accident specific kinds of violence, right that people haven't historically

(15:27):
thought about community violence or you know, systemic violence as traumatic. Right,
They don't see poverty as violence when I do see
poverty as violence. So also being able to expand those things, right,
but really talking to people about how safe they feel
given these different factors, and that helps me lean into
whether or not they might feel traumatized by this. And

(15:47):
that also doesn't mean that we're using that language if
we do discern, right, that this was a traumatic experience.
I always lead with what the client might name, because
a lot of my clients don't want to name trauma.
I wasn't traumatized, they don't want that label. It also
seems like a lot of people want this label these days,
Like people like want to have a story of difficulty,
they want to have a story of trauma. I think

(16:10):
a lot of people are beginning to see some kind
of like social value. Those are things that I'm noticing
on social media. Or it's just like it's like I
want to be traumatized. You don't really want to be traumatized,
but like you think you do because maybe now you
are seeing on social media that that's the way in
which people are connecting. So I mean noticing that actually
with the young I'm probably millennial me and under are,

(16:32):
they are seeking these ways right to be like I
have this, I have this, that horrible thing happened to me.
I've never been the same, so like, let's connect. I'm
actually seeing a shift in people rejecting a narrative of
of having been harmed or kind of having trauma to
I do I do? I do me too, me too.
So I think that's also an interesting like phenomenon that

(16:52):
we're now seeing shift. You're so right, It's like there's
this badge of honor. But I think it's the spite
the fact that I have been traumatized. I am still
like in school. You know, these things like this badge
of hon it like I endure trauma. I endure this,
or my childhood was traumatic. What does it do? Does
invalidate the reason you know that I'm I'm a little

(17:14):
delayed in this, this and this because I've had to
overcome a whole lot because of this trauma. You know,
I've still been able to achieve this despite this, you know,
this trauma. So yeah, I've been seeing it where it's
a thing where everything is like this is traumatic, or
we bond it because of this trauma, and look at
what we've been able to attain because of this trauma.
And I think along the same lines in this trauma,

(17:35):
and I know this is probably about to be like
oh my gosh. It's like everything is triggering, you know.
So that's another way I am triggered. It's like, oh,
you know what, the store was closed. I feel triggered,
you know. So you know, and there are real triggers
when we talk about trauma things, it sounds, smells all
of those things that remind us of a traumatic event.

(17:55):
So triggers are really real. But also it's become such
a common term. Yeah, I feel triggered because of this,
this and that. So it's it's all of that. So
not only is it a badge of honor seemingly in
the social world where oh, you've experienced trauma and you've
been able to triumph over it, or you have something
that's in common, there's a sense of belonging with other
people who have endured trauma. It's this thing of like, oh,

(18:17):
I feel triggered. This thing triggers me. So another word,
So y'all have said a whole lot that I feel
like I'm trying to like figure out because I agree
with you in that I am also seeing that especially
I think with younger people, right, and I wonder what
it is about. And of course we are a psychologist, right,

(18:38):
so I think that's our natural inclination, like what's the
story here? Like what's happening? But it does, in a
lot of ways feel like people are just very excited
to finally have language to be able to describe what's happening, right,
And so you know, I don't necessarily pathologize it. I
don't think that's what y'all are saying either, but it
does feel like people finally have language to describe, like

(19:00):
this awful thing happened to me, or I realized now
that everybody's experience wasn't like that, and so now I
have a name to call it. To your earlier point,
dr a around like we as therapist kind of did this, right?
I want to kind of take a step back and
kind of figure out is there a way too maybe
in some ways course correct? Or is it is it

(19:25):
a problem? I mean, because it does very much feel
like yes, Like I think that that is a lot
of our goal, right is to be able to give
people something, right, Like we do understand how broken the
mental health system is. We want to try to make
things more accessible, but I think there has to be
a limit, right, And so when you just see a carousel,
you know you can't go too far with like talking

(19:48):
to any one person in a comment section about like
what their personal experience of something has been. And so
it feels really hard to know, like, Okay, is there
a way to do this that is like helping people
or are we actually doing more harm by like giving
this information without an actual contained way to help somebody
fully explore what's happening with them. I don't know if

(20:10):
this answers it completely dr Joy, but I think you
make a really good point. I think that's probably where
we struggle, because we see the cons are the dangers,
the potential dangers in you know, kind of letting these
terms be free flowing out in the world. But the
good side of it is kind of what we've always wanted.
I think we're saying that it's using some of these
terms raises the awareness that a person can have these

(20:32):
various experiences and it can look a different way. I
think we want to feel that we are not alone
in our experiences. So now we're talking about things that
we have experienced, we're talking about our traumas, we're talking
about our childhood. So it's letting us know that, you know,
you're not alone. This is more common than not. So
that's the benefit and the beauty of that these words
are causing conversation. So I think it also changes the

(20:55):
narrative when we talk about kind of the shame that's
attached to mental illness and that and the attached I
think that it changes the narrative where when we think
a person has been say, let's say traumatized, or they
may have and I'm gonna use air quotes here high
functioning depression or whatever, it changes. I know, don't roll
your eyes at me, I know, but it changes the narrative.

(21:15):
Oh you guys are giving me those sharp eyes and
look down. Changes the narrative of how we have seen
these things in the past. And so you know, we
think about what has perhaps trauma looked like when someone's
experienced something really really like seriously traumatic, or what has
depression looked like? And we've been afraid to necessarily claim
or own our experiences because we're afraid of like oh,

(21:37):
if you say this person is depressed or they've been
through something traumatic, it looks this one way, and we're
talking about it. So it allows us to see that,
you know what, it doesn't look this one way. You
don't have to be a shame if you've experienced depression
or something that's really really traumatic. So yes, that's the
pros and we're like, yes, finally we're having these conversations.
But then we're like whoa, whoa, whoa, you know, rilling

(21:58):
it in some And so maybe an answer is to
allow the convert, you know, as much as we can,
because we don't have all power, but you know, to
see these conversations and for us not to water than
when they're being used incorrectly. So being able to say,
I do understand what you're talking about. These reoccurring thoughts,
you know, are definitely a sign of PTSD. So being

(22:19):
able to validate what is real in the sense of
how we define it or yes, being in bed for
days and still going to work, that is definitely how
depression can look. So how we don't kind of join
into the party when we realize that it's going in
the wrong direction. So I don't have to you know,
wave a flag and say stop it, stop talking that way,
that's wrong. No, I love the conversation. I love that

(22:41):
we're honest, open and talking about it, but making sure
that we are honoring the work, the research. We're honoring
what we know to be true. So just as we
started it, you know, it's out there. Now, what are
you doing and being honest with yourself? Like you know,
am I doing reels talking about trauma bonding? And am
I doing it the wrong way? Our health is not

(23:01):
for likes and for like re posting to go viral.
If we don't want to at the expense of those things,
compromise like the health, because it's a real deal. I
absolutely agree. I think that in general, therapist in some
of these social spaces and having these conversations and the
conversations happening, are doing more good than they are doing harm.
I think there are spaces that are much better at

(23:23):
this than other spaces right in terms of what they
are sharing and how they are sharing and how they
are are nuancing it. But I also recognize that given
that this is happening through certain media, it's limited. So
I think that what's also happening that we're really getting
caught up in this needs to happen in thirty seconds.

(23:44):
I need to explain this really really heavy nuance layered
subjective personal thing in sixty seconds in a reel in
a carousel and a hit on Twitter when you only
have a hundred I'm not on Twitter a hundred and forty. No,
it's to eight characters whatever. It is right that with
us trying to use that particular forum to get this

(24:05):
information out in this mass way, we've conformed, We've changed
the information, We've shifted what we can even say to
try to make sure that people get it. But again,
people can only get but so much so I think
we've also lost the art of the subjective language in
that because of how we're trying to make it through.
We can have hours of conversations with clients. We can't

(24:27):
do that on social media. Allow mean, some people are
I'm sure, but like, we can't do that on social media.
So it turns into you've got this many characters. People
don't read captions, right, it turns into all this stuff
where it's like I gotta get it here. And then
you add to how social media is also kind of
changed how a lot of the mental health industry is
also kind of accessing clients and business and all this

(24:50):
stuff that people want to go viral. So you want
to get the thing, you want to say the thing.
And if you say that this is trauma bonding and
you know that trauma bonding is a big thing, you're
gonna get more likes and follows and shares and all
that stuff in terms of whatever that can turn into
for you. I think the larger problem is this intersection
that we're seeing at the mental health industry. Lack of

(25:10):
mental health care, lack of enough mental health professionals, increased need,
and then we've got social media as this quick way
to try to help people, and it's very very limited.
It's really really limited to to the knowledge that we have,
and it's really limited to the care that is needed.
But if that is our funnel, then we go based
on that, and I think that is largely why and

(25:32):
how the harm is happening in this way. I also
recognized that because mental health and or mental illness has
become in some ways a bit more trendy for industries
and for a number of industries to kind of jump
on and say that they're responding to and really valuing
people can also take advantage of the increased popularity of
it and are not there to really offer care. They're

(25:54):
there to make money. So I think that's a whole
other piece of this. But us talking about the inter
section of technology and the certain forums that we're doing
this on to be able to spread more awareness creates
this kind of bottleneck, right, So people are dancing to
things that people are doing different things to try to
kind of get people to the information. But we don't
really know what people are getting from this. They're laughing

(26:15):
at and that's this, but it's it's really incongruent oftentimes
with the content that we are sharing and trying to
kind of share really heavy things. So I really don't
know how it's landing with people. More from my group
check conversation after the break. So just to make sure

(26:43):
so that no one comes for our girl, I think
we just said today it's because you know, in the
very beginning, you started off by saying like, hey, we
did it this to ourself, and you know, because we
know better. I think what you're saying, it's very possible
that we unintentionally in our quest to increase awareness and
because of the lack of you know there's a greater

(27:05):
need and demand than actual resources at this moment. You're
saying in our trying to get all of this information
out in thirty seconds and to make it where this
is a really important topic, and I want to make
sure that you know our audiences get this information that
we have very likely compromised unintentionally the information that we
put out why the group, I mean, listen, what is

(27:28):
we doing? But also I also with that, I also
think it is ethically our responsibility to take responsibility for
how we are sharing information and what we are saying
and what we are not saying, and for us to
kind of do our own internal work around what is
the motivation and what is the goal for this that
is our own like self a therapist work that again,
people out there have no clue that those are things

(27:50):
that we are supposed to be doing and navigating ethically.
So I think it's also on us to to take
that responsibility for what we are sharing, how we are
sharing it, and of really being clear about what the
motivation is and if we're not doing that self awareness work,
this is why these things will also continue to absolutely
it becomes what is driving It's like, okay, you want

(28:10):
to get your followers or your likes, or you want
to go viral, or you want to get more clients
or whatever this is you want to be on this panel.
It's like, we have to be self aware to know
like at this point you are compromising or to put
this out in thirty seconds is doing more harm than
it is good. And so being aware again, we cannot
compromise what we're ethically sworn to do and give and

(28:32):
provide and the care that people and trust with us.
We have just to keep that at the forefront because
otherwise you're doing these reels and it may seem fun
and there's more visibility, but you're right, once it's out there,
we have no control over how it's being interpreted or
where they decided to post that information. And although we
want to increase awareness and put it out there, there's

(28:52):
a responsibility of person, you know, especially when it becomes
you are a doctor such and such. It's like, okay, well,
the doctor such and such said that this is trauma bunding,
and now I'm going I'm telling my family because of this,
this and this, and so it goes back to what
we're saying earlier to be mindful of am I watering
this or am I adding gasoline onto this fire? So
if you feel like you have to be engaged in
this conversation, how are we going to be engaged in

(29:14):
this conversation? So it's like, oh, that's cute, and I
don't have to take it personal that you decided to
use that word. It's not personal. It's like, I love
that we're having a conversation about this, but let me
you know, my little whatever fifty characters are going to
tell the truth basically. So another term that comes up
quite often is gas lighting. So gas lighting and I

(29:36):
have also seen a new spin on the term self
gas lighting, which I was not aware of. So this
is another term related to an old movie right around
this man and wife or husband and wife, and he
was like turning off the gas or turning on I
can't remember, to make her think that like the lights
were on when they really were and or something like that, right,

(29:57):
but to kind of make her feel like she couldn't
us her own It was like the heat she was feeling.
It was like the gas and he was turning it
off and on, so she would be cold and need
a blanket and right, so making her feel like she
could not trust her own experiences, right, like she couldn't
trust her own knowledge, and that is I think a
hallmark sign of narcissistic personality disorder, right, which it is

(30:19):
often tied closely to you know. So again it feels
like this is one of those terms that has escaped
the confined of where it started and now anything that
is dishonest or anybody who is not being completely truthful
like oh, they were gaslighting me, And so I want
to hear from you both, like what are some of

(30:40):
the dangers of again this kind of a term not
necessarily being used correctly, and did we define like what
it really is? Like, hey, it is psychological manipulation right
where the abuser is like sowing the self doubt and
intentionally trying to cause confusion in the victim's mind. So
this is what it is. That could be a lie

(31:01):
or you're trying to play mind games or you're trying
to trick me. But it does not necessarily mean that
I have been like gas lits or you are guys
lighting me. And I think you named it. It's the
piece about it being intentional. So where I hear it
get really murky for a lot of people is that
when somebody is disagreeing with you, that they are gaslighting you.
If somebody just isn't in the same kind of space

(31:22):
with you, doesn't maybe believe what you have said, there's
an argument about it. They don't see things the same
way that you see things. Now, what has come out
of that is that you are gaslighting me, right, because
you do not believe that I have had this experience
and I think that Again, it has to be noted
that this is about intentional manipulation, where somebody is denying

(31:42):
your experience of something and they're trying to also make
you question your lived experience. It is not them not
understanding you. It is not not agreeing with you, right.
It is not them arguing with you. It is not
them not believing that something happened. It's them trying to
buy different words by different kind of version, different actions

(32:04):
get you to not believe yourself so that you would
more than likely become more dependent on them, right, because
in you being confused, you would be more vulnerable, and
in your vulnerability, you would gravitate back towards them. So
it is a power play, right. But people disagreeing with
you mostly is not because they're trying to get power
over you or confuse you. They are literally having a
different experience of the same thing. And I think that

(32:27):
is really difficult for people to discern when they feel
activated right, when they want to feel understood, when they
want to feel cared for, when they want to feel seen,
and somebody doesn't. It's really disregulating for some people. And
now we've got this term to be able to add
to it, and again in thinking about the ways in
which these days we are very short on language, so
that fits it. Well, Okay, you're denying my experience. You

(32:49):
must be gaslighting mess. There's so many other options of
what is happening here, and I think that we are
removing the different options and the nuances of what really
happened and relationships. Yes, absolutely, and I love it. Dr A,
you're saying, hey, just because I don't agree with you,
or perhaps I don't understand your perspective or your experience,

(33:10):
or I don't quite believe it happened that way. I
think that if we automatically latch onto that this is
gas lighting, then you've said it like your gas lighting me.
It's like a cascade, Like now you're going down this
path and it becomes all of these other things that
are attached with a person who legitimately gas lights, And
so I think it reduces our opportunity for like a resolution.

(33:31):
If I believe that you don't understand me, or if
I believe that, okay, you know what I see, you disagree,
let's have some conversation about it. If I'm looking at
it from those lens, then we can kind of have
a resolution. This thing does not have to become bigger.
But once I've said that you are gas lighting me,
I'm activated, you're gas lighting me, I'm going hard now.
And this thing that started out as something significant but

(33:54):
not as big, has now turned into something big. And
often what I've seen in doing couples work, it's a
term that Okay, maybe the one person is familiar with
it and another person is not as familiar with it.
So then what do we go Do you said I'm
gas lighting you? Gaslighting you? So then the other person
goes to look it up, and there's nowhere to go
but down from there. When you start to look up

(34:14):
what it says the true definition of gas lighting that
I'm this horrible, horrible person, and now why are you
with me if I'm so horrible and I'm you know,
you're saying I'm manipulating. So instead of being able to discuss,
you know, what are the behaviors that that you're seeing
that you're not happy with compassion or empathy or let's
work on communicating your feelings, it just does not give

(34:35):
us the opportunity to be able to deal with what
perhaps is the core issue we're experiencing here because we've
already attached this label to it of your gas lighting me. Yeah,
And I do feel like this is the perfect segue
into discussing narcissism, right, which is gas lighting is first cousin, right,
you know, because I do think, you know, like we
talked about earlier, people want to understand their relationships, right, Like,

(34:57):
we want to understand ourselves, and we want to staying
like who we are in relationship, and we want to
understand our partners. And so I think this has become
one of those again topics where it feels like, oh,
this person does this, this, and this, they are narcissists, right,
when really we know that very few people actually meet
the criteria for a narcissistic personality disorder, right, and so

(35:20):
kind of again throwing around this term that this person
is a narcissist like you mentioned Dr Joy. Okay, now
that you've labeled them as this, like, is there any
way for a resolution? Is there any opportunity for discussion
for or for us to get on the same page
if you've now labeled this other person as a narcissist?
And you know what happens like once you label something like, oh,

(35:41):
it's a beautiful day outside, then you see the beauty
in it. It's a bad day, then you see the
bad things in the day. So once you label a person, ask,
oh my gosh, like you're a narcissist. And guess what,
Now I'm starting to pick out all the things that
you know, I feel a narcissist does, Like look at you.
You know you're calling me, expect me to answer. I
couldn't wait for me to call back. And you know,
it's like, what is how copening here? Because you made
up in your mind that this person is narcissistic or

(36:04):
you know you're wanting me to help you. It's like,
I don't know if that's a narcissist, And so it
just leads us down this path of where there's just
not seen to be a good end. And again we
can't resolve or it's difficult to resolve because I've automatically
attached this definition to you. Yeah, and again it's the
problem of the lack of nuance, right, that there's a
difference between someone exhibiting narcissistic traits, which reach our shows

(36:27):
many of us have narcissistic traits. It can actually be
really useful for us to have some narcissary trades, depending
on how we're using them to kind of move through
different scenarios or stay motivated or you know, boost our
self esteem. There's a difference between having narcissistic traits and
having narcissistic personality disorder. Right, But people put that all
together and just say that you are a narcissist. Right,

(36:48):
So now we have this kind of identity, right that
it's formed with this person, and that misses all of
the nuances and all of the criteria that we as
mental health professionals. No, you need to meet pretty significant
criteria for a certain amount of time in order to
be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder. And I also recognized

(37:09):
that what the research shows are kind of what people
think is that you know, more men are narcissists, right,
so that we've also got this like gender conversation and
dynamic around it. And because people don't understand the statistics
like we do, that it's actually pretty rare, right, it
seems really common, but it's it's actually fairly rare in
terms of general population. But there were maybe eighty five
percent of the women in this chat that said that

(37:31):
they were dating a narcissists or had dated narcissists. And
in my mind, what I said to myself was, unless
y'all have all been with the same three people, that
is statistically not possible, right, statistically not it. Absolutely, you
were in relationships where you did not feel loved, you
did not feel cared for, you do not feel understood,

(37:53):
you do not feel met. Somebody said something that was
harsh to you or mean or harmful. But all those
things also don't equate to narcissist because there's so many
more criteria that, again the general population does not understand.
And for a reason, there's a reason why there are
a certain number of people who have studied this for
years understand this in a certain way, and that's why

(38:16):
it's not kind of this widespread thing where we are
just naming everybody as narcissists. But again, sound bites, Instagram carousels, reels,
TikTok stuff. Right, the four signs are dating a narcissist.
There's more criteria than these four signs. Right, Trust what
you're seeing online. You're trusting kind of where this information
is coming from. So you take that information as truth,

(38:37):
even if we can put all the disclaimers and all
that kind of stuff, right, you take that information is truth.
You apply it to your life, and you're probably gonna
come across seventeen people who you would diagnose, right with
narcissistic personality disorder. And that's not that people get to
be jerks and not kind and not nice and not
love you and not and they're not narcissists, right, absolutely,

(39:00):
dr Yeah, they get to be selfish, You get to
choose yourself over someone else, and it's not because you
are narcissistic. And I think one of the downsides of
doing that sometimes it's so so that it explains the
end of a relationship or why something did not work,
you know, so it becomes a oh, it didn't work
with this person because this person was a narcissist or

(39:22):
you know, this is my family because my parent was
a narcissist. And I think that if you put it
automatically on there, then it can decrease your desire to
work on what happened in that relationship, because now it's
been this other person's fault, so it's not necessarily a
youth thing. It's like, okay, because he was this way,
this way is this way, and the last two were
this way. But I think when you are able to

(39:45):
label the behaviors that didn't serve you in the relationship,
then you can really kind of look at yourself and say,
you know, how did I find myself in this relationship?
What were the things? So maybe the fact that this
person was so confident of the fact that they had
these self care days. You know, it was appealing in
the very beginning of the relation ship until you got
in it and it's like, okay, we haven't gone out,
and but you're going on the self care day. So

(40:05):
now it seems like you're so selfish. You want what
you want and you know you have these um were
boundaries are healthy, But in the context of this, when
I've labeled you as a narcissist, then this boundary becomes
a problem. So I think that sometimes we do that
and we put it on the other person in terms
of their narcissism in a way to not sit with
ourselves and to say, Okay, you know, how did I
find myself on this type of relationship? If the last

(40:27):
three men you dated have been narcissists, then you know,
to take a look at self and say, what's going
on here? Why am I attracting? What is appealing to
me about these certain characteristics? And so I think it's
easy to say, oh, that's what it is, girl. Yeah,
that makes sense because you know, I'm dope, I'm awesome,
I'm wonderful. So it was the fact that X, Y,
and Z. So it's so much danger and automatically labeling
it there. So like you said, you can have characteristics

(40:49):
of it and not actually have the disorder because we
know how difficult it is to reach that criteria. And
if all of the women in this group all data narcissists,
then we need to figure out where they are because
that's a great research study. How hard is to find them?
So yeah, more from my group chat conversation after the break.

(41:19):
So what y'all are talking about, you know, in terms
of labeling, it does feel like there's some kind of
like armchair diagnosing going on right, just like you know,
the Monday morning quarterbacks, Like it definitely feels like there
are some armchair diagnosing of like, oh, I see all
of this stuff and this meets the criteria that I
saw on this Instagram post, So you now have narcissistic
personality disorder. But in addition to people I feel like

(41:42):
doing some of that diagnosing of others. It also feels
like there's a lot of self diagnosing, and y'all have
kind of talked about that some, but I do want
to hear your thoughts on the increase. I think that
we are seeing in terms of people looking at something
that they see on socials, of a video that they
see on YouTube, and then diagnosing themselves and what are
the dangers there? But also why is it happening? Right?

(42:04):
I think for a lot of the reasons we talked
about in terms of the system, but I do think
we have to be careful. I think people have to
be careful in terms of diagnosing. So what are your
thoughts about that. I think we have seen an increase
just with the adjunct to the increase in this information
being available online. Right, So not only related to mental health,
but we see you know the web ed D rabbit hole, right,

(42:24):
or the healthline rabbit hole right, that you can find anything.
And again, I think it goes back to a limited
understanding and kind of acceptance of the human experience, right,
and that not everything is going to be pleasant all
the time. I think we got lost a long time
ago with this like you know, happiness goal and us
believing that happiness is the standard and that you should

(42:45):
always feel like that and positive psychology. I think that
has kind of created this setup where if anything feels
a right, it must be a problem. And then because
our brains literally right needs to solve problems, that kind
of figure out what's going and kind of cessed for threat.
We've now got all this information at our fingertips, and
in point zero zero zero five seconds we can find

(43:06):
the five diagnoses of why I don't think that he
likes cats and he should like whatever the thing might be. Right.
So I think it's heavily related to our inability to
as a society, our inability or kind of lack of
understanding around tolerating distress, so that when distress is present,
it's really disregulating for us, and then we want to

(43:27):
get rid of it, so we go to find what
are the ways to get rid of it? Who knows
about this thing that I might be experiencing, and then
that kind of sends us down whichever rabbit hole about
these things. And I also recognize that being able to
access a lot of this information online is another opportunity
for like self advocacy because I recognize the limits of

(43:47):
health care and oftentimes when we go into different spaces work,
particularly for black women, where we're going in and talking
about what's going on with our bodies, we get denied,
we get rejected, we get dismissed. Somebody tells us that
our pain is not this. So I recognize that there
is a part of this threshold that feels really important
for us to access information so that we can take

(44:08):
better care of ourselves in a system that historically has
not done the best. But it's that fine line of
that and wanting to use this information and be able
to use the healthcare set and say, hey, I think
it might be this. I'm noticing this about myself. I'm
the expert on me you're the expert on this. Can
we put that information together versus going into the office saying,

(44:30):
I've got these three diagnoses, my daddy did it. This
is this, this is what you need to do, and
that is all I will accept. I think it's having
some flexibility and some magility around how we're using that information.
So you're exactly right. I think it goes back to
sitting with the human experience, and I think what we've
had the opportunity to do, whether we ask for it

(44:51):
or not, as we seek to understand the human experience,
we are seeking to understand our own personal experience. Why
do we experience life this way? So what is it
with me? And so as we're sitting in the house
trying to understand ourselves, what do we do? We look
for information because they're problem solvers, and so where do
we look for information in the palm of our hand?
And so there's this social media where all of this

(45:12):
information is like, oh, I'm looking for dislike cats. You
can look and you know, let's see who has used
the hashtag dislike cats. And you know what, if it's
your lucky day is attached to some type of disorder,
and so you're seeking some type of understanding, in some
type of clarity, so we get it in that in
terms of why is it happening? And we are experiencing,
of course more distressed. The downside of that is, as

(45:33):
we seek to have clarity, as we seek for we
seek information, as we seek understanding, we run the risk
of mislabeling ourselves. So you basically said, based on what
you found out here, whether it's web md, whether social media,
in these reels, okay, now I have this, and so
what's as you're saying, Dr A, you want to be
able to advocate for yourself. But what happens with a

(45:55):
mislabeled misdiagnosis and then our treatment is definitely impacted. So
you know, you feel that if you don't go to
a doctrine sometimes if you do, but if you don't,
it's like, oh, now I have this or I have trauma.
So now you're doing these other tools and techniques that
you have said that because I have trauma. Now I'm
doing these things that I've read about online because I'm
treating my trauma. And so are we really healing the wound?

(46:16):
Are we really making it better? Or we making it worse?
Because we are now doing and engaging in things, interventions
that are not even targeted at what this thing is
rooted in. So that's the downside of it. So I
do get it. Or we want to be able to
advocate for ourselves. We want to be able to educate ourselves.
So if we need to tell our provider this information,
we can. But if we're getting not so good information,

(46:38):
we've attached this not so true label to ourselves, then
we're engaging in interventions and behaviors that are not necessarily
doing what we are wanting and expecting to do. And
that's the unfortunate part. So I think that we seek
to know, we seek to understand, But there is that
fine line. Yeah, any given day, I got fourteen diagnoses
and it is m any given day. Wasn't that everybody's

(47:02):
experience when we first took our abnormal cyclass, Like, oh,
I definitely meet criteria sometimes all at the same time.
It's like all about all of them. Yeah, And I
think human behavior is just so fascinating and so interesting.
Of course we want to know about ourselves, right, And
I think that's the point that like the general public

(47:23):
maybe doesn't always see that, Like even as people who
are trained. That was a part of our experience. But
you continue your training and then you realize like, no,
you don't actually meet criteria for all of this, right.
But if you are just now introduced to all of
these like oh, I can check this list off, but
there is no additional training or understanding or nuance to
go with it, then you just kind of stopped there,

(47:43):
as opposed to like continuing to learn more about why
it's not appropriate and why you don't actually need criteria
for these things all right, And you think about the
relief when we said, oh I have all of these things,
and the relief once you studied more and learn more,
it's like, Okay, I don't and it's like okay, good
because if I feel like I got all these things,
and then it's like I feel like my life is

(48:03):
like jacked up now. So then you know there are
these limits because I walk around carrying all of these things.
I think what perhaps happens out in the world is
that you now feel like, okay, I have all of
these things. And on one hand, it's like okay, now
I understand, okay, good, so now understand why I am
this way or why I feel this way. But once
that one thing turns into twelve, then how do you

(48:25):
operate now? Now you feel that I am perhaps damaged
or there's some limits to me, and it's like, well,
it may not even be true. And so now you're
figuring you can't do this, or you can't marry, you
can't go to school, you can't whatever because of these things.
And it's like you said that, no one else said that.
You said that, and you said that because of a
real thirty seconds, Yeah I got reposted, and so just

(48:47):
really being mindful of that. Yeah, So I think that
that is you know, where I would like us to
kind of wrap up is if you could both offer
some suggestions or advice around like how people can be
mindful around the information that they find on one like
what kinds of things should they be paying attention to
on how do they make use of it carefully? I

(49:09):
love for Dr A said when you said you are
the expert on you, and I think that we start there.
I think that you know, your experience is your experience
and is a valid experience. And so if there's something
that we're seeing online it's like wow, that feels very
familiar to me, or I think that offers some insight
into how I've been feeling, it is okay if that
basically resonates with you, But knowing that these are not

(49:30):
credible spaces necessarily, and knowing where am I getting my
information from? All of our experiences are different. So just
because you experience it too, you are now not the
expert or this person is not the expert on that
particular thing because they had the experience, and so I'm okay,
whatever comes up for you or whatever resonates with you.
But being saying, okay, where can I go to meet
with a licensed provider, someone who's trained at hey, and

(49:54):
you can take your experience into the room. This is
what I experienced, And I actually saw something on social
media that talked about this, and this is what I
experienced that was similar in that particular post and being
able to work through that because you really do want
to have understanding, you really do want to get better,
You really do want to target whatever it is that's
perhaps causing you discomfort or the struggles that you're having

(50:16):
when it comes to the experience of life. So I
think being mindful of the source where we're getting the
information from, and then being mindful of where we go
to for help and we go to for treatment, So
the experience is valid, your feelings are valid. But then
what do we do now as a result of all
of that? Yeah? Absolutely, The main thing I was going
to say was around the the source right, thinking about it,

(50:38):
recognizing who you are sourcing information about yourself from. I
think I would add to that, you don't have to
be this constant self improvement project. You don't always have
to be working on yourself, and you don't always have
to be getting better. And I see things that I
understand what the tent is like, you know, one percent
better every day. It's just like some can I just
be where I am today or for a week or two,

(50:59):
like in the distress tolerance piece, right, But I think
we are like walking self help sections of Barnes and Nobles,
where it's like everything I should be doing to get better,
I need more money, I need more clarity, I need
better friends, I need higher following on social media. It's
and I get wrapped up in it. Two So I
understand it right from my own experience, But that can
be really exhausting. You will more than likely find yourself

(51:21):
reactively searching for all the things to get better, so
looking online, buying courses, buying programs, getting coaches, like doing
all this stuff that really can take away from you.
Actually just feeling connected with who you are and kind
of where you are now. I'm allowing that to be
good enough. So just being mindful of how much time, energy, effort,
money you spend on wanting to be different than who

(51:44):
and how you are. So just being mindful of how
much time, energy, effort, money, and I think that can
that can be a helpful kind of mindfulness exercise, and yeah,
being being mindful of of who you are following and
how the information leaves you feeling. I want to say,
last year, or maybe the year before, I unfollowed, probably
unfollowed therapists. I couldn't do it anymore. It was too much.

(52:06):
I'm following, are you following me? Hold on it now,
because I don't be. I'm not on there like that.
Let me go, okay, let me listen. Has been done.
I still following to you, but I had to. I
had to stop following therapists. It was too much for me,
and I was trying. I was initially doing it to

(52:27):
kind of support, but then I found myself doing it
to kind of get ideas for social media that they're
posting about this, so I should post about this, and
oh my goodness, they're talking about this. I never I
never learned about it that way. Maybe I should. I
had to stop. It was too much, It was too
too much for me. So also recognizing and and and
leaning into write your own awareness of what gets activated
for you when you see this kind of content. But

(52:49):
if it's taking you further and further away from yourself,
you can change up your theme. I love therapists, but
I was doing way too much, doing way too much,
so I need to follow, you know, puppy pages, not
the good old met pages. Yeah. I love It's like

(53:12):
that we get to like it's okay for us just
to be and that we will constantly be in a
state of becoming and that is okay. You know, we
don't have to always you know, be you know, yeah, yeah,
just be just me and that's okay. Yes, yes, Well,
thank you again both for such beautiful, beautiful thoughts. Remind
us where we can find you all on social media

(53:33):
as well as your websites, on our on not so
much on social media. Don't don't be trying to come
for me. Dr Joy because I'm not on there like that.
It's awesome you hearn lowlow listen, this is a a group
watch out. I am asked Dr Joy A s K
d R j O y on Instagram. So that's where

(53:56):
I am not daily, not awesome but yeah, and where
I am daily and probably too often for my own benefit.
I am on Instagram at dr underscore Ayanna underscore A.
So let's at d R underscore A y A n
n A underscore A perfect And we will include all

(54:16):
of that in the show notes. Thank you both. I'm
so glad Dr Abrams and Dr beckw With were able
to join me again this week to learn more about
them in their work and to check out the other
conversations we've had here on the podcast. Visit the show
notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash session
to see and make sure to text two of your

(54:37):
girls right now and tell them to check out the episode.
If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check
out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot
com slash directory. And if you want to continue digging
into this topic or just be a community with other sisters,
come on over and join us in the Sister Circle.
It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for

(54:58):
black women. You can join us at Community dot Therapy
for black girls dot com. This episode was produced by
Freda Lucas and Alice Ellis and editing was done by
Dennis and Bradford. Thank you all so much for joining
me again this week. I look forward to continue in
this conversation with you all real soon. Take it here

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Session 271: Being Mindful About How We Use Mental Health Terminology

Episode Transcript

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.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Dateline NBC

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Session 271: Being Mindful About How We Use Mental Health Terminology

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