May 1, 2024 • 44 mins
Take a second to think of all the things in your life you’ve been told you “should” do. I should eat more healthy. I should be a better mom. I should have a partner. Now, imagine how much freer you could be by transforming those shoulds into cans, allowing you the ability to pursue your desires without shame.
To talk with me today about why women should stop should-ing themselves is returning guest Dr. Melissa Robinson Brown. Dr. Mel is a licensed clinical psychologist, health & wellness enthusiast, and multi-passionate entrepreneur. During our conversation, we discussed how to notice when you’ve developed a pattern of should-ing on yourself or others, the importance of having a strong group of friends who can help you combat negative self-talk, and how parents can stop the cycle of “should-ing” by embracing grace and compassion.
About the Podcast
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three fifty seven of Me
for Black Girls podcast. We'll get right into our conversation
after a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Hey there, I'm doctor mel and I'm on the Therapy
for Black Girls podcasts. I'm in session today unpacking how
to stop shooting on yourself.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Take a second to think of all the things in
your life you've been told you should do. I should
eat more healthy, I should be a better mom, I
should have a partner. Now, imagine how much freer you
could be by transforming those shoulds into cans, allowing you
the ability to pursue your desires without shame. To talk
(01:46):
with me today about why women should stop shooting themselves. Yes,
you heard me right is returning guests doctor Melissa Robinson Brown.
Doctor mel is a licensed clinical psychologist, health and wellness enthusiast,
and tip passionate entrepreneur. In her private practice a renewed
focused psychology services, she helps women who want to feel
(02:08):
empowered while navigating difficult life situations and transitions. During our conversation,
we discuss how to notice when you've developed a pattern
of shooting on yourself or others, the importance of having
a strong group of friends who can help you combat
negative self talk, and how parents can stop the cycle
of shooting by embracing grace and compassion. If something resonates
(02:32):
with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us
on social media using the hashtag TVG in session or
join us over in the sister circle To talk more
about the episode, You can join us at community dot
therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. Well, thank
(02:52):
you so much for joining us again today, Doctor mill Thank.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
You so much for having me. I'm so excited to
be back on the podcast. It's been too.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Long, been way too long, and I know our listeners
are ready for an update. So, as you mentioned, it's
been a while since you've been with us since twenty twenty,
people will recognize your voice, maybe from men, but let
us know what you have been up to since you
were talking with us about living single.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
So I continue to have a private practice. I now
have a group practice, so there are more clinicians available
to see clients. I have the side Packed designation, which
means I can see clients in over forty states and
do telehealth and actually have openings right now, which is
so rare. I have also moved a little bit into
the coaching space, so I have a coaching program called
(03:39):
Limitless and Fearless the Badass Transformation, where I help women
start to step into more of their authenticity, become bolder
in their requests and their asks, and set better boundaries
so they can go to work and leave that toxic
job that's been holding them back, or ask for that
raise they've been deserving, have more space in their lives
(04:02):
because now they are setting better boundaries with their family,
with their kids, their partners, and they feel seen and
they're developing really healthy relationships. So I'm really excited about
that program. And I have a journal coming out this
year called the Badass Transformation Journal. So we've been busy.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
We've been busy over Yeah you have, Yes, you have.
So doctor Mail, tell me a little bit about what
made you start the coaching program and how it is
different maybe from the work that you do in clinical practice.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah, that's a great question. So clinical practice, I love it.
I love what I do, but there are limitations in
the sense that I get to see my clients one
to one forty five minutes a week. And while I
love that, I know that there is so much additional
work to be done in between, right in between those sessions.
And I also think there are such value to community.
(04:53):
So my coaching program right now is a group coaching program.
So the goal being, especially because I'm focusing on on
building healthier relationships, I want women to be able to
be in a space where they can start to build
community and get feedback about their growth, to get affirmation,
because so often they don't. Women don't get that right.
(05:15):
And so I moved into this space because number one,
I wanted to be able to reach and help more women.
But I just love the idea of coaching and encouraging
and promoting in a group space and being able to
do that in between work, in between the sessions, so
to speak.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
I love that we love in vivo feedback. Right, There's
nothing like being able to hear in real time like
how you're coming across the people.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Yes, yes, absolutely, it's so powerful.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Yeah, agreed. So so much of your work, doctor Mail
has really been about this kind of badass transformation in
so much of your work. I'm wondering in your work
with both your coaching clients and your therapy clients, if
there are general themes that come up about things that
get in the way of women and creating the lives
that they say they want for themselves.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Yes. One of the things that I really have been
focusing on I've always focused on, but I'm taking a
different approach to it is there are so many rules
and structures ways in which we are socialized to behave
to show up right, the concept of professionalism and how
(06:24):
we need to be in a space and be more professional. Right,
So somebody may look at me right now with my
purple hair, my big red earrings, these nails and be like, ugh,
I don't know if that's professional, but that has nothing
to do with what's coming out in my mouth, right,
And so, really, so many of the things that get
in the way of women getting closer to what they
(06:44):
want is they're trying to follow the rules that were
set and established hundreds of years ago, and they were
relevant back then, but they're not relevant now, and the
idea of changing them is scary. There's no new template
to follow, there's no new pathway, and so we don't
(07:04):
change them because that's all we know. But we can't
get caught up in that old stuff because it's blocking
our come up now.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Ooh, I love that, So talk to me more about
what does it look like to start because I think
for some people they don't even realize like they are
following these rules that like society and our parents and
other people have given us. So what does it look
like to start the work of changing some of these rules,
especially if you don't even know that you're operating by them.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Yeah, that's a great question. So I think it's first.
I was talking to somebody recently and knowing when you're stuck,
because usually when you feel like you're stuck, it's because
there's a rule you're following that doesn't fit, or there's
something about yourself that you're not accepting, and so once
you can start to identify what that is, it's helpful.
I'm a big journal start to get the things out
(07:54):
of your head because we think this and then we
get distracted by our kids and then oh this other
revelation comes up, and oh yeah, I gotta return this
work email. So all that good work that's happening in
your head, it gets lost. So journaling is so important
getting it out of your head and writing it down,
or getting it out of your head and talking it out.
Sometimes people are like, I don't want to write, or
(08:16):
journals are scary because what if somebody finds it? So
you do a voice memo, anything you can keep personal
to yourself. But start there and think about what do
you value the most in your life and what's driving that.
Is there a particular value, Is there a particular belief
that you're holding onto, and does that feel like it's
in alignment with how you want to live your life,
(08:39):
not how you should live your life, but how you
want to live it. And that's just a great place
to start to just start to jot those down.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
So I wonder if you have a couple of journal
prompts that you maybe share doctor mail that you can
offer with our community that could be helpful for this process.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
So I'm going to take it to like career, right,
because I talk about this a lot, and I'll even
do professionalism or what I wear to work. So you
may be thinking about, Hey, I want to show up
at work as my most authentic self. So the first
prop would be what does that look like to me?
Like if I had no restrictions in the world at work,
if there wasn't a dress code, if there wasn't a
(09:15):
boss telling me that I had to look or dress
a certain way, what would I put on? How would
I show up? What would it look like for me
to use my voice in those situations? Starting to journal
about if there were no restrictions, what would I do?
And then once you've written that down to say, am
(09:37):
I showing up this way now? Yes? Or no? And
if I am, what about this environment allows me to
do that? So thinking about Okay, yeah, I do think
I can show up the way I want at work.
I can wear color, I could change my hair, I
can put in braids, I can wear my fro I
can straighten it. What about that environment allows me to
do that? And then if your answer is no, to
(09:59):
am I showing up this way? What about this environment
is stopping me? What are the rules? What are the thoughts?
What's the culture here that's stopping me from showing up
the way I want? And do I want to continue
to stay here? Right? Is it worth it for me
to sacrifice this thing that I'm feeling or this thing
that I'm wanting to be in this work environment. I
(10:21):
feel like I gave you like ten prompts, but.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
I'm sure the community will love that. We love a
good journal assignment, so I appreciate you sharing that. And
something that you talked about that I think will be
helpful for us to talk a little bit more about
is not the things that you should do, but the
things that you want to do. And I know so
much of your work really focusing on stopping people from
shooting all over themselves, So can you talk to us
(10:48):
more about what does that mean? Like when you say, like, oh,
you're shooting on yourself again, what are we saying?
Speaker 2 (10:53):
I have a series on TikTok that I do shooting Tuesdays,
and so many people will go what did you just say?
Speaker 1 (11:00):
And I'm like, I remember learning about that in grad
school and thinking I was so tickled if that was
a word.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Oh but when you should on yourself, you literally put
the shoulds on you and you are judging. So a
should signals judgment the minute you use it in your vocabulary.
I should mother this way. I should get married at
twenty six because that's what women do. I should have
(11:27):
a baby, I should pursue this career path because this
is what I went to school for. And it doesn't
matter if I really like art. I should be a
lawyer because that's what I got my degree in. Right, So,
the minute you start saying that, you're putting a judgment
on yourself because if you don't do it, then it
must be bad, right if you should and you're not.
(11:50):
And when we're shoulding on ourselves, we're just judging ourselves
all over the place. It's like judging up and down,
back and forth every which way, and that is really challenging.
We start to feel bad. Right, I should put my
kids to bed at seven pm. So then when you
put them to bed at eight pm, now you're feeling
like a bad mom. Right, I don't know any should
(12:14):
that then turns into a good thing. Even I should
do more self care Okay, But then because you don't,
you start to feel bad. Oh, I don't make enough
time for myself. I'm just failing at life. So when
you're shoulding on yourself, you're constantly judging and you're actually
not helping yourself make progress in any way.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Okay, So I'm thinking, what then is the balance? Because
some of those things that we're talking to ourselves about
are important, right, Like it is important for us to
make time for ourselves. It is good for kids to
have some structure, bed time kind of thing. So what
kind of language should we be using? Should what kind
of language can we be using with ourselves to still
(12:58):
do the things that may be helpful for us, but
maybe not as judgment field.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
So it's really about accepting yourself where you are and
recognizing that you want to do something differently or do
something better right. And also when you accept yourself where
you are, understand and recognize if you want to do
the thing you think you should be doing. Right. So
I should be putting my kids to bed at seven pm, Okay,
(13:25):
if that's something you truly believe because you've looked at
the science and you believe when kids go to bed
at seven pm they do better in the mornings, they
sleep better. Right, So you're aiming for something. You say,
I want to put my kids to bed at seven pm.
Right now, what we can make it to is eight.
But I know it's something I want to work on.
So maybe next week what I'll do is I'll start
(13:46):
storytime at six instead of at six point thirty. Let's
see if that gives us a little bit more time.
The difference is that you've given your self space to grow.
You've accepted right now, the way the house is working,
we can't get to bed till eight. But if it
feels really important to me to get them to bed
at seven, then I'm going to adjust and try something
(14:08):
different to see if that works. It's movement. When we
should we get stuck I should do this at seven. Oh,
I'm a bad mother. I've done the worst things in
the world. And then you're just stuck in this storm
of like, eugh, iickness, right versus the I want to
do this, and so because I want to do this,
let me try. Right, I should be more professional at work? Now?
(14:32):
Why because back in the sixteen hundreds when we came
up with professionalism and it was for white men. This
is where it started. We think we should show up
this way. No, right, I want to show up as
my best self at work? What does that look like
for me? And then you figure out what that is
and then again find the culture. So it really is
(14:54):
about taking out that should and using more language that
says I accept where I'm at now. Now what do
I want to do with where I'm at? Now? Do
I want to make change? Do I want to actually
create my own rules here? Right? Maybe you don't care
about getting your kids to bed at seven, Maybe eight
nine o'clock works for you because your kids sleep well
(15:14):
in the morning. I don't know, but yes, got it.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
More from our conversation after the break, But first, a
quick snippet of what's coming up next week on TVG.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Why would we not focus on neuth mental health because
our young people, they don't get those issues addressed as
young people, They're going to grow into adulthood carrying those
issues which you know well and talk about all the time.
So so much of our experience as adults is rooted
in what were our experiences as children and So why
wouldn't we start the conversation with our young people? Why
(15:46):
would we not want to support young adults who graduated
high school and maybe in the military, out working or
starting families or in college. All of those young people
have needs, and those are periods of heavy transition, like
you're going from let makes you the middle middle to
high hi to college or the work or the military,
you're getting married, and so finding yourself and trying to
figure all that stuff out and not having mental health
(16:09):
support is too much.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
So what kinds of things would be helpful for people
to identify when they are shitting on themselves? What kinds
of things should we be paying attention to?
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Yeah, I always tell people to start with noticing. The
minute I say to somebody, be careful when you use should,
just like you did just a second ago. You're like, oh,
I should can just notice first? How often do shoulds
come up in your life? When I work with my
clients and we start talking about this, they're like, oh,
I got to change my language around us because they
(16:51):
start to become more aware. Awareness is like such a
big first step. So you want to become aware first,
and then once you become aware again that journal. Why
is that a should in your life? Gotta understand, right?
Why am I holding onto this should? I should put
my kids to bed at seven? I should only give
my kids healthy foods. They should not have McDonald's. Right,
(17:15):
Why are you holding onto that? Well? You know they
say that kids shouldn't have any fast food, and like,
feel like I'm really not giving them the best things.
All right, look at all the things you're doing. Oh
but during the week you give your kids broccoli and
grilled chicken and sweet potatoes, and then on Fridays they
ask for McDonald's. Balance. Balance works, right? So I think
(17:40):
we start with awareness and then once we identify where
we tend to say should, start writing. Why am I
holding onto this belief? Is it because I truly believe this?
Or is it because society told me this is how
it should be? Oh, look I said it, or my
mom told me these are the rules I'm supposed to follow, right,
or my dad or my caregivers or whoever my friends.
(18:00):
This is what all my friends are doing. I need
to be doing it too. So just understanding the source.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
I wonder, doctor Mail, if there are particular shoulds you
have seen come up for black.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Women Mmmm, that's such a great question. There's definitely a
should related to parenting our kids. Right. My kid should
show up at school, hair done, clothes the best they
ever have been because we feel like we need to
represent in a particular way. I hear things around. I
(18:32):
should be a strong black woman because my ancestors have
done X, Y Z, because that's what's expected of me.
I should be careful with how loud I am in
a workplace because if I'm too loud, they're going to
criticize me. They're going to not give me the job
(18:52):
I want. We can do. Shouldn'ts too write. I shouldn't
ask for a raise because it's not my turn yet,
even though I've working really hard for a year, all
of these accomplishments I've had in my job, and then
it makes sense to ask for a raise. But people
get stuck in this idea of especially Black women, get
stuck in this idea of not asking for raisis. I
(19:15):
hear it a lot in our jobs. I should do
this particular job because I need to provide for my family.
I shouldn't pursue my passion because I need to show
up in a particular way so that I can be
respected as a black woman, respected as a black professional,
I should be partnered. So those are some of the
ones I hear a lot.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Yeah, I'm not surprised by anything that you shared, and
I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about
I mean, because in fairness, some of that is what
the world has told us, right, I mean, and we
do know that there are expectations, and we know that
racism and all the isms still exist. So how do
you balance the reality of the world with the things
(19:56):
that you would like to do that may be different
from what the world real tills us. That is possible?
Speaker 2 (20:02):
I think it's such a great question. The one that
was just coming up for me again was this idea
around hair. Right. We hear it so often. I should
wear my hair straight when I go to work, especially
if I'm in a corporate environment. I can't wear my
natural curly hair. They're not going to respect me, so
I should do this. So, first of all, when we
start to break free of some of these requirements and
(20:24):
rules and should there's risk taking involved, right, because we
are taking a risk. If the rule is every black
woman at work, she's got her hair straight, and if
I show up in these braids. I don't know what's
going to happen, Right, You're going to take a risk,
and you want to take what I call healthy risks. Right, So,
(20:46):
even if you're deciding to quit a job, even if
you're deciding to wear your hair differently than you ever have,
I say, take a healthy risk because I want you
to think it through. Impulsivity doesn't ever work well. But
I want you to think about both the advantages to
you doing what you want to do and the disadvantages.
I'm a firm believer in finding a culture that works
(21:07):
for you instead of you always trying to fit yourself
uncomfortably into a culture that just doesn't work. But even
that is a risk. Right. So if you say, at
my job, I tried to wear braids and everybody was
touching my hair and my superiors were looking at me strange,
and I just felt uncomfortable. So I went back to
wearing my hair straight because I needed to have my
(21:30):
job fair. I want you to keep your job, but
please start planning your exit strategy, because that's just the
tip of the iceberg in terms of how an environment
is going to try to control you. Right. And so
the world is telling us particular things, and there are
definitely spaces whereas black women, we are not going to
feel comfortable no matter what we do. We can shift, change,
(21:53):
tweak all we want, and they're still not going to
accept us. So it is a matter of taking a
healthy risk. All right, I can't be in this environment anymore.
I'm planning my exit strategy. So in a year, I'm
out of here. So I'm going to take everything I
need from this job. I'm going to start putting my
resume out, start networking, start figuring out how do I
(22:15):
get out of here right, And in a year, I'm
also going to start saving because in a year, I
gotta go because the impact on me is going to
be too great. So yes, the real world is out
there and it is telling us particular things, and we
have to find our spaces, our work environment, the right friends,
(22:35):
the right partners, the right networking situations. You have to
find the spaces where authenticity is valued.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
I really appreciate you bringing in the piece around risk
taking because I think that's important, right, Like some of
the things that you're suggesting and that we may desire
is a risk. What would you say to someone or
how might we be able to cope if we take
a risk, right, So maybe we're a little risk averse.
We take a risk because we wanted to do something different,
and then we don't get the expected results right, Like
it turns out it was a bad calculation or you know,
(23:06):
people just didn't accept it. What do we say to
ourselves to move past that?
Speaker 2 (23:10):
So start with grace and compassion. It has to be first,
because black women, Oh, we're the worst with our negative
self talk. We go in, right, that was so dumb.
You shouldn't have done that. There's a should, right, I
can't believe it. Oh, I'm such an idiot for believing that.
I knew this wasn't gonna work. See, this is what
happens when you step outside the box. I'm not doing
(23:32):
this anymore. But we have to have grace and self compassion.
Speak kindly to ourselves first and foremost. Applaud yourself for
taking a risk. It's not easy, right, it's scary af
to take a risk sometimes, and so the fact that
you had the courage to do it, applaud yourself for that,
(23:54):
and have grace and compassion when it didn't work out, right.
I think the second step there, though, is processing. We
have to have a good squad, right, and I know
you're so big on this, doctor Joy. Right, Having a
good group, particularly of female friends, who hold you down,
(24:15):
who cheer you on when things go well, who will
be your support when things don't go so well. Those
are the people you have to go to process. Don't
keep this in right, go to them when the risk
goes well too, But when the risk doesn't go well,
use your people, right it. Tap in to your people, y'all.
I need you. I need to talk through this because
(24:37):
I tried something, it didn't go well. I'm feeling bad,
but I need your help because those are the people
who are going to be good reflections. They're gonna be
good mirrors for you. They're gonna say, yeah, that was great.
Sometimes things don't work out, or I see why you
did that, and can I give you some feedback? Right,
But we need those people in our lives, so grace
(24:58):
and compassion first, watch that negative self talk, then tap
into your squad.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
I wonder if you could talk a little bit about
why black women are so critical of ourselves. And I
don't know if you know any numbers of research that
suggests this. I would love to hear it. I don't
know that we are more critical on ourselves than anybody else,
but we definitely do have a lot of negative self
talk and can be very critical of ourselves. That I
think then in turn becomes us being very critical of
(25:26):
other people. So can you talk a little bit about
why you think black women are so critical in our
self talk.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
I wish I had specific stats. I don't. I can
tell you anecdotally because my practice is probably about eighty
percent women of color, and then I do have the
other twenty percent that are white women. And I think
it comes down to two things. I think one is
sometimes the way we are parented, right, I hear a
(25:55):
lot of women who have grown up with hypercritical parents.
There wasn't a lot of room for mistakes, There wasn't
a lot of room for risk taking, and in fact,
there wasn't a lot of room for just problem solving
and decision making. A lot of that was just done
for us or put on us, or we're told what
(26:15):
to do without being able to necessarily always use our
own thoughts. And if something didn't go well, let's say
a sea got brought home on the report card, or
you got in trouble at school, or you were supposed
to practice for an event and you didn't. The hell
storm that comes down from parenting around a mistake or
(26:41):
not doing something you were supposed to do. It's heavy
and it's intense, and we learn from our parents in
terms of how to react to a thing. So we
get real critical because when we were young, those mistakes
were huge, even though they really weren't supposed to make mistakes.
As kids, we're supposed to mess up, right, But our
(27:04):
parents are so quick to come for us that when
we get older, that's what we know. Come for yourself
when you've messed up. It's not really often taught grace
and compassion, right. Can I share a small anecdote really
quickly about this thinking. So I have three kids. I
have a fourteen, eleven and a seven year old, and
(27:26):
when my daughter was in seventh grade last year, she
got caught cheating, and oh my goodness, I think this
is the other piece of it. As black parents, we
think I'm working so hard, I'm teaching you the right
from the wrong. I'm busting my butt to make sure
(27:47):
you get what you need, and then you do this
it feels like a personal affront. So often right as parents,
And I had to sit with myself for a second
right and say it is not going to help me
to go at this child and take everything that I'm
feeling and put this on her. She already feels horrible.
Charnie feels really bad because she knows how we are
(28:09):
in our house, right, So for me to then go
for her in that moment is only going to then
make her more anxious and be more critical of herself
as she gets older. So I know what it's like
as a parent, especially as a black parent, because we're
sitting here thinking our kids need to be representative of
who we are, so we come down on them harder, right,
(28:32):
And as black women, we grow up with that we've
got to be the representation of black women. So if
we mess up, the world is ending, and we've got
to teach ourselves that the world is not ending. That
everybody is a human and humans air, humans make mistakes.
We've got to develop better self compassion.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I really appreciate you sharing that because I definitely was thinking,
and I know you have three beautiful babies. I was
gonna ask you, like, Okay, as a mom, what kinds
of things can we be doing to not pass on
some of that, right, because as I hear you talking,
I know exactly what you're talking about, and I know
exactly why many of our moms parented the way that
they did and dads and caregivers, right, And I think
(29:13):
we also need to look at how effective are those
strategies and things anymore, And I think what you're arguing
is that largely they are not, especially in terms of
our long term mental health. So when I hear you say, Okay,
she gets caught cheating, I'm thinking all of these things
and now I have to figure out how to respond
to her. What I hear you talking about is having
(29:36):
to do a lot of regulation of yourself so that
you can respond to her in a way that she
does not internalize all this bad stuff about her. Can
you talk a little bit about what we need to
be doing in those moments and what kind of work
it takes to get to the place where you can,
you know, regulate and parent in that way. I'm asking
for myself.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
I hear it's hard. I'm just gonna say like, it's hard,
full transparency. It was nice because I heard about this
when she was not home, and then I had like
two hours before she got home to like process with
my husband, with my other mom friends who were all like,
(30:19):
I know you're mad and right, so yes, there is
some self work that has to happen. I think we
need to be really clear about what kind of parents
we want to be. Take a look at how you
were parented by grandma, by mom, by dad, right by
whoever was your caregiver, it was your aunt, whoever it was,
And take a look and say to yourself what did
(30:39):
I love about their parenting and what was really not great?
What made me feel bad as a kid. Right, there's
historical work we have to do because there's always connections,
and then you have to I'm going to go back
to it, have a really good squad, Right, Have people
in your life that are trying to raise their kids
(31:00):
similarly to how you're trying to raise them, who have
similar values. This may be a different group of girlfriends
than your girlfriends that you go to talk work related things, right,
because your work related things. Those girlfriends may not have
kids or maybe their great aunts and uncles, and they
could still be helpful. But my point is have a
good squad, because that's what helped me as soon as
(31:21):
it happened. I picked up my phone and I'm like,
you will not believe. And my husband is definitely a
really good yin and yang to me, so he does
not pop off as easily as I do. So he
brought me down. But my girlfriends were great. They were like,
everything you want to say to her, say it to us,
which was such a good pointer. They're like, every single
(31:41):
thing you want to be able to say to this child,
say it to us, so you can just get it out.
The emotion needs to go somewhere. I'm not telling you
not to feel angry, because it makes sense to feel angry.
I'm not telling you not to feel disappointed. That also
makes sense, but find a different place to put it
than on your child.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
I love that. Thank you for that, Doctor mill. More
from our conversation after the break. So you've mentioned the
importance of our squads at least twice now in our conversation,
and again you know I am a big fan of that.
(32:22):
But I also wonder, and you've already referenced this, that
sometimes the shoulds that we get will sometimes come from
the people in our lives, maybe including our squads. So
how can we assess for ourselves if we may be
unintentionally shoulting on other people.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Yeah, that's such a great point. So a couple of things,
and I think you know this and have said this too.
First of all, don't be afraid to reconfigure the squad. Right.
As we change and we shift, sometimes our friendships don't
grow with us. And that's okay, season reason, lifetime. Right,
(32:59):
Sometimes there were friendships that made sense when you are
at a certain phase in your life, and as you
move on to the next phase, they're not growing with you.
They're not shifting with you, so it doesn't make sense.
So I do think that that's part of it, right,
making sure your squad makes sense at the phase that
you are in your life. But when we are to
know if we're intentionally shoulting on other people, should there judgment? Right,
(33:22):
So you're not only just assessing if you're shoulding, assess
that you're judging? Right? Am I judging my friend? When
my friend comes to me and says, I'll take a
sensitive topic that has happened, right, I think that my
child is trans and so I'm allowing them to transition.
And then you get questions like are you sure that's
something you want to do? I mean, isn't such and
(33:42):
such a little young for that? All of that is
disguised judgment, disguised because they're not saying that's a bad thing,
don't do it, but that are you sure, don't you think?
Blah blah blah? Right, that's disguised judgment. And if you
find yourself doing the same thing, going to that friend
who's about to quit their job, and you're like, are
(34:04):
you sure you want to quit that job? I mean,
don't they pay you one hundred thousand dollars a year?
Can you make up that money somewhere else? That's judgment.
That's your own sense of judging their decision that you're
now putting on another person that does not feel good
when you're trying to make a life transition or a pivot.
(34:27):
So I think it's just listening to when you yourself
have judgments or biases or fears. Right, when we see
our friend getting ready to quit their job and you're like,
I want to do that, but I could never Are
you sure you want to do that? That's how it's
going to come out.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
I appreciate you pointing that out right, because a lot
of times our judgment is really based in our own
fear or our own wish that we could do something differently,
and now somebody else is doing it and it makes
us feel bad, I think about ourselves. So in the
example you gave, right, let's say somebody in your squad,
I'm seeing you in there, Like, I want to leave
this good government job, as people say, but I want
to do something else. I want to travel abroad for
(35:06):
a year. I want to do something completely different. What
kinds of things might we say or respond that are
not shitting on them?
Speaker 2 (35:14):
The first one is I love that I am big
of this. I love that for you? That sounds so exciting.
How'd you get here? Like? Why did you decide to
do that? Well, the job has been really rough. I've
been talking to you like I've just been feeling so
unseen and my boss is racist. Wow, that's awesome. Like,
I love that you have gotten to this place where
(35:34):
you feel like you're ready to make this next step.
How can I support you? End of story? Right, there's
no well, how are you going to do that? And
like a whole year of traveling abroad? Is that okay? Right?
Have you talked to your husband? I mean, have you
talked to your husband? Or your partner about that. That's
not a judgmental question, right, that's just kind of a like, hey,
have you like discussed this with the people in your life?
(35:55):
What are they saying about it? Are you feeling supported?
But the how can I support you? Is a really
great non judgmental way to be there for your friends
the excitement about what they've chosen, and y'all, tone matters.
So if somebody comes to you and share something they're
excited about and you're like, oh, that's cool, so let
(36:16):
me talk to you about X, Y Z and YLB
and if that is so clear that you actually do
not care or share in their excitement about the thing, right,
so like, let's actually feel enthusiastic about it. And if
you're not feeling enthusiastic about it, sit back for a
second and ask yourself, why am I not excited for
my friend? Why am I not excited for my bestie? Right?
(36:39):
She just came and shared amazing news with me. Why
am I feeling like, oh, that's fine and moving on?
Because there's something going on with you.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
So, doctor Mail, we have a shared love of pop
culture and all things film, movie, podcast, all the things
I'm wondering if you can identify some of your favorite
examples of women characters across tea, the books, and film
who you've seen stop shooting on themselves and how it
unlocks something for them.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Okay, I don't know why being Mary Jane is coming
to mind, even though that.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Was what I was thinking. She was the first one
that fassed into mind, like she's coming.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
To mind, even though that's been off for a little while.
But I think Mary Jane had a lot of shoulds
about who she should be professionally, who she should be dating, right,
that is a big one, like I should be dating
this really fancy, corporate whatever person, and I actually I am
(37:38):
really feeling like I love the art teacher at the
high school. Right. That wasn't who she loved, But there
was just so much distinction between those two, and people
have status wise or who I am I should be
dating a certain person. But I felt like with Mary Jane,
over time she let go of those shoulds and started
just leaning into what made her happy, right in terms
(38:04):
of her relationships, in terms of her work. Right, there
was a passion she had for what she was doing,
and like what it looked like to actually pursue that
regardless of the judgment around her, Right, it just allowed
her to feel better. I think at the end, right
in that last sort of long episode they had or
(38:25):
our movie, whatever they did, at the end, I think
what I recognize is that she just started feeling better
about her, Like there's joy when you let go of
shoulds and lean into what actually works for you. I'm
trying to think if there's another character that comes to mind.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Have you watched the Belle Air reboot?
Speaker 2 (38:47):
I have?
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Ooh, okay, so I feel like all of the women
characters there, like the Mom, Hillary an Ashley. Yes, I
feel like all of them. Through the series, we've seen
them let go of some of the shoulds about who
they should be and do something very different.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Yes, yes, yes, specifically I'm thinking about Hillary right, if
you think about it too, Even again our long this
dating piece, I think for a while she was hiding
her relationship with Jazz because she thinks she should have
been dating I mean, and she didn't start dating the
football player, but like she should have been dating somebody else, Right,
Jazz wasn't the person people would expect her to be with,
(39:24):
and she experienced dissonance around that because that's who she liked.
I actually liked how they changed it and made them
a couple because there was always this fight against it
in the original. But that was a big part. Even
though we're talking about women. I saw it a lot
with Vivian. But like Carlton, right, who Carlton was trying
to be in that show was messing him up, right.
(39:49):
It caused him to take drugs. It caused him to
have so much jealousy and envy because he thought he
should be a certain way and the people around him
should show up a certain way. And it was so challenging. Right.
I think Ashley with her sexuality for a while, she
was sort of hiding that and should be straight. But
I think once she came into a place where it
(40:11):
was like, It's okay for me to like girls, and
I'm going to tell people that she was able to
have relationships, right, she likes somebody, She felt freer with
her family, she could talk about it more freely. It
was so empowering.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Agreed, Agreed. I'm ready for the next season. I hope
we get it very soon.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
I really like it too. I like them. It's a
good show.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
So you've shared so much with us today, Doctor Miil.
I wonder if you could summarize or give us three
takeaways that you would like the community to have after
checking out your conversation here.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, so definitely to stop shooting on yourself, right, And
in order to do that, we have to develop an
awareness around our shoulds and then work towards why we
hold them and then what it looks like to let
it go. That's a really long one. I think the
second takeaway is taking some time to tap in and
(41:04):
understand what brings you joy, what makes you tick. Right,
so many of us deny and don't pay attention to
what makes us tick. We're so busy following rules that
are archaic and at a date and don't even make
sense anymore, but we're still following them, right. So really,
just taking time to tap in with yourself and really
(41:27):
get to know yourself. And you can do that in
so many different ways, but journaling is such a really
great place to start. And I think the third one.
I really enjoyed our conversation on parenting, and so I
think making sure that number one, you have a great
squad for feedback, and you have a great squad who
you can go and you can give them all the
(41:50):
stuff you would want to give to your kids in
the heat of the moment, but also as a parent,
like instead of getting caught up and how we should
parent because our moms told us how to, because society
tells us how to, really think about, how did I
want to be parented? What kind of kids do I
want to raise right? And how do I get closer
to that based on the values the shoulds I let
(42:11):
go of, letting go of some of these rules, like
really again taking time to like understand if the shoulds
are impacting your parenting and if they are, how do
you let them go?
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Thank you for those So, where do we stay connected
with you? Doctor Meiel? What is your website as well
as any social media challenge you want to share?
Speaker 2 (42:29):
Absolutely, so it's really easy to remember. On all socials,
I am doctor mel So It's literally i am d
R M E L on all socials, I'm the most
on Instagram and TikTok. And then my website is I
amdoctormeil dot com.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
And can we find information about your coaching there?
Speaker 2 (42:49):
My website is currently being redesigned and launched in April,
and that is when my coaching program will open. Up
again right now. I'm not taking new members, but you
go to my Instagram and click on my link tree.
There is a waitlist sign up there for Limitless and Fearless.
So if you are interested and once it launches again
(43:10):
in April and you want to know more and find out,
I'll also be doing some free webinars leading up to it,
then just hop on my Instagram. My link tree is
linked on TikTok too, and there's a waitlist. Join that
waitlist and you will not miss a beat.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Perfect. We'll be sure to include all of that in
the show notes. Thank you so much for spending some
time with us again, Doctor Mail, and I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Thank you so much for having me, Doctor Joy. As always,
it is so easy to have conversation with you. I
can't even believe the time has passed.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Already, right right, Thank you, thank you so much. I'm
so glad Doctor Mail was able to join us today
to share her expertise. To learn more about her and
her work, visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls
dot com slash Session three point fifty seven, and don't
forget to chext this episode two of your Girls right now.
(44:02):
If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check
out our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com
slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into
this topic or just be in community with other sisters,
come on over and join us in the Sister Circle.
It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for
black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy
(44:23):
for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Elise
Ellis and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford.
Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week.
I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all
real soon. Take good care.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
What's
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three fifty seven of Me
for Black Girls podcast. We'll get right into our conversation
after a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Hey there, I'm doctor mel and I'm on the Therapy
for Black Girls podcasts. I'm in session today unpacking how
to stop shooting on yourself.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Take a second to think of all the things in
your life you've been told you should do. I should
eat more healthy, I should be a better mom, I
should have a partner. Now, imagine how much freer you
could be by transforming those shoulds into cans, allowing you
the ability to pursue your desires without shame. To talk
(01:46):
with me today about why women should stop shooting themselves. Yes,
you heard me right is returning guests doctor Melissa Robinson Brown.
Doctor mel is a licensed clinical psychologist, health and wellness enthusiast,
and tip passionate entrepreneur. In her private practice a renewed
focused psychology services, she helps women who want to feel
(02:08):
empowered while navigating difficult life situations and transitions. During our conversation,
we discuss how to notice when you've developed a pattern
of shooting on yourself or others, the importance of having
a strong group of friends who can help you combat
negative self talk, and how parents can stop the cycle
of shooting by embracing grace and compassion. If something resonates
(02:32):
with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us
on social media using the hashtag TVG in session or
join us over in the sister circle To talk more
about the episode, You can join us at community dot
therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. Well, thank
(02:52):
you so much for joining us again today, Doctor mill Thank.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
You so much for having me. I'm so excited to
be back on the podcast. It's been too.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Long, been way too long, and I know our listeners
are ready for an update. So, as you mentioned, it's
been a while since you've been with us since twenty twenty,
people will recognize your voice, maybe from men, but let
us know what you have been up to since you
were talking with us about living single.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
So I continue to have a private practice. I now
have a group practice, so there are more clinicians available
to see clients. I have the side Packed designation, which
means I can see clients in over forty states and
do telehealth and actually have openings right now, which is
so rare. I have also moved a little bit into
the coaching space, so I have a coaching program called
(03:39):
Limitless and Fearless the Badass Transformation, where I help women
start to step into more of their authenticity, become bolder
in their requests and their asks, and set better boundaries
so they can go to work and leave that toxic
job that's been holding them back, or ask for that
raise they've been deserving, have more space in their lives
(04:02):
because now they are setting better boundaries with their family,
with their kids, their partners, and they feel seen and
they're developing really healthy relationships. So I'm really excited about
that program. And I have a journal coming out this
year called the Badass Transformation Journal. So we've been busy.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
We've been busy over Yeah you have, Yes, you have.
So doctor Mail, tell me a little bit about what
made you start the coaching program and how it is
different maybe from the work that you do in clinical practice.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah, that's a great question. So clinical practice, I love it.
I love what I do, but there are limitations in
the sense that I get to see my clients one
to one forty five minutes a week. And while I
love that, I know that there is so much additional
work to be done in between, right in between those sessions.
And I also think there are such value to community.
(04:53):
So my coaching program right now is a group coaching program.
So the goal being, especially because I'm focusing on on
building healthier relationships, I want women to be able to
be in a space where they can start to build
community and get feedback about their growth, to get affirmation,
because so often they don't. Women don't get that right.
(05:15):
And so I moved into this space because number one,
I wanted to be able to reach and help more women.
But I just love the idea of coaching and encouraging
and promoting in a group space and being able to
do that in between work, in between the sessions, so
to speak.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
I love that we love in vivo feedback. Right, There's
nothing like being able to hear in real time like
how you're coming across the people.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Yes, yes, absolutely, it's so powerful.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Yeah, agreed. So so much of your work, doctor Mail
has really been about this kind of badass transformation in
so much of your work. I'm wondering in your work
with both your coaching clients and your therapy clients, if
there are general themes that come up about things that
get in the way of women and creating the lives
that they say they want for themselves.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Yes. One of the things that I really have been
focusing on I've always focused on, but I'm taking a
different approach to it is there are so many rules
and structures ways in which we are socialized to behave
to show up right, the concept of professionalism and how
(06:24):
we need to be in a space and be more professional. Right,
So somebody may look at me right now with my
purple hair, my big red earrings, these nails and be like, ugh,
I don't know if that's professional, but that has nothing
to do with what's coming out in my mouth, right,
And so, really, so many of the things that get
in the way of women getting closer to what they
(06:44):
want is they're trying to follow the rules that were
set and established hundreds of years ago, and they were
relevant back then, but they're not relevant now, and the
idea of changing them is scary. There's no new template
to follow, there's no new pathway, and so we don't
(07:04):
change them because that's all we know. But we can't
get caught up in that old stuff because it's blocking
our come up now.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Ooh, I love that, So talk to me more about
what does it look like to start because I think
for some people they don't even realize like they are
following these rules that like society and our parents and
other people have given us. So what does it look
like to start the work of changing some of these rules,
especially if you don't even know that you're operating by them.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Yeah, that's a great question. So I think it's first.
I was talking to somebody recently and knowing when you're stuck,
because usually when you feel like you're stuck, it's because
there's a rule you're following that doesn't fit, or there's
something about yourself that you're not accepting, and so once
you can start to identify what that is, it's helpful.
I'm a big journal start to get the things out
(07:54):
of your head because we think this and then we
get distracted by our kids and then oh this other
revelation comes up, and oh yeah, I gotta return this
work email. So all that good work that's happening in
your head, it gets lost. So journaling is so important
getting it out of your head and writing it down,
or getting it out of your head and talking it out.
Sometimes people are like, I don't want to write, or
(08:16):
journals are scary because what if somebody finds it? So
you do a voice memo, anything you can keep personal
to yourself. But start there and think about what do
you value the most in your life and what's driving that.
Is there a particular value, Is there a particular belief
that you're holding onto, and does that feel like it's
in alignment with how you want to live your life,
(08:39):
not how you should live your life, but how you
want to live it. And that's just a great place
to start to just start to jot those down.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
So I wonder if you have a couple of journal
prompts that you maybe share doctor mail that you can
offer with our community that could be helpful for this process.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
So I'm going to take it to like career, right,
because I talk about this a lot, and I'll even
do professionalism or what I wear to work. So you
may be thinking about, Hey, I want to show up
at work as my most authentic self. So the first
prop would be what does that look like to me?
Like if I had no restrictions in the world at work,
if there wasn't a dress code, if there wasn't a
(09:15):
boss telling me that I had to look or dress
a certain way, what would I put on? How would
I show up? What would it look like for me
to use my voice in those situations? Starting to journal
about if there were no restrictions, what would I do?
And then once you've written that down to say, am
(09:37):
I showing up this way now? Yes? Or no? And
if I am, what about this environment allows me to
do that? So thinking about Okay, yeah, I do think
I can show up the way I want at work.
I can wear color, I could change my hair, I
can put in braids, I can wear my fro I
can straighten it. What about that environment allows me to
do that? And then if your answer is no, to
(09:59):
am I showing up this way? What about this environment
is stopping me? What are the rules? What are the thoughts?
What's the culture here that's stopping me from showing up
the way I want? And do I want to continue
to stay here? Right? Is it worth it for me
to sacrifice this thing that I'm feeling or this thing
that I'm wanting to be in this work environment. I
(10:21):
feel like I gave you like ten prompts, but.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
I'm sure the community will love that. We love a
good journal assignment, so I appreciate you sharing that. And
something that you talked about that I think will be
helpful for us to talk a little bit more about
is not the things that you should do, but the
things that you want to do. And I know so
much of your work really focusing on stopping people from
shooting all over themselves, So can you talk to us
(10:48):
more about what does that mean? Like when you say, like, oh,
you're shooting on yourself again, what are we saying?
Speaker 2 (10:53):
I have a series on TikTok that I do shooting Tuesdays,
and so many people will go what did you just say?
Speaker 1 (11:00):
And I'm like, I remember learning about that in grad
school and thinking I was so tickled if that was
a word.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Oh but when you should on yourself, you literally put
the shoulds on you and you are judging. So a
should signals judgment the minute you use it in your vocabulary.
I should mother this way. I should get married at
twenty six because that's what women do. I should have
(11:27):
a baby, I should pursue this career path because this
is what I went to school for. And it doesn't
matter if I really like art. I should be a
lawyer because that's what I got my degree in. Right, So,
the minute you start saying that, you're putting a judgment
on yourself because if you don't do it, then it
must be bad, right if you should and you're not.
(11:50):
And when we're shoulding on ourselves, we're just judging ourselves
all over the place. It's like judging up and down,
back and forth every which way, and that is really challenging.
We start to feel bad. Right, I should put my
kids to bed at seven pm. So then when you
put them to bed at eight pm, now you're feeling
like a bad mom. Right, I don't know any should
(12:14):
that then turns into a good thing. Even I should
do more self care Okay, But then because you don't,
you start to feel bad. Oh, I don't make enough
time for myself. I'm just failing at life. So when
you're shoulding on yourself, you're constantly judging and you're actually
not helping yourself make progress in any way.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Okay, So I'm thinking, what then is the balance? Because
some of those things that we're talking to ourselves about
are important, right, Like it is important for us to
make time for ourselves. It is good for kids to
have some structure, bed time kind of thing. So what
kind of language should we be using? Should what kind
of language can we be using with ourselves to still
(12:58):
do the things that may be helpful for us, but
maybe not as judgment field.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
So it's really about accepting yourself where you are and
recognizing that you want to do something differently or do
something better right. And also when you accept yourself where
you are, understand and recognize if you want to do
the thing you think you should be doing. Right. So
I should be putting my kids to bed at seven pm, Okay,
(13:25):
if that's something you truly believe because you've looked at
the science and you believe when kids go to bed
at seven pm they do better in the mornings, they
sleep better. Right, So you're aiming for something. You say,
I want to put my kids to bed at seven pm.
Right now, what we can make it to is eight.
But I know it's something I want to work on.
So maybe next week what I'll do is I'll start
(13:46):
storytime at six instead of at six point thirty. Let's
see if that gives us a little bit more time.
The difference is that you've given your self space to grow.
You've accepted right now, the way the house is working,
we can't get to bed till eight. But if it
feels really important to me to get them to bed
at seven, then I'm going to adjust and try something
(14:08):
different to see if that works. It's movement. When we
should we get stuck I should do this at seven. Oh,
I'm a bad mother. I've done the worst things in
the world. And then you're just stuck in this storm
of like, eugh, iickness, right versus the I want to
do this, and so because I want to do this,
let me try. Right, I should be more professional at work? Now?
(14:32):
Why because back in the sixteen hundreds when we came
up with professionalism and it was for white men. This
is where it started. We think we should show up
this way. No, right, I want to show up as
my best self at work? What does that look like
for me? And then you figure out what that is
and then again find the culture. So it really is
(14:54):
about taking out that should and using more language that
says I accept where I'm at now. Now what do
I want to do with where I'm at? Now? Do
I want to make change? Do I want to actually
create my own rules here? Right? Maybe you don't care
about getting your kids to bed at seven, Maybe eight
nine o'clock works for you because your kids sleep well
(15:14):
in the morning. I don't know, but yes, got it.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
More from our conversation after the break, But first, a
quick snippet of what's coming up next week on TVG.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Why would we not focus on neuth mental health because
our young people, they don't get those issues addressed as
young people, They're going to grow into adulthood carrying those
issues which you know well and talk about all the time.
So so much of our experience as adults is rooted
in what were our experiences as children and So why
wouldn't we start the conversation with our young people? Why
(15:46):
would we not want to support young adults who graduated
high school and maybe in the military, out working or
starting families or in college. All of those young people
have needs, and those are periods of heavy transition, like
you're going from let makes you the middle middle to
high hi to college or the work or the military,
you're getting married, and so finding yourself and trying to
figure all that stuff out and not having mental health
(16:09):
support is too much.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
So what kinds of things would be helpful for people
to identify when they are shitting on themselves? What kinds
of things should we be paying attention to?
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Yeah, I always tell people to start with noticing. The
minute I say to somebody, be careful when you use should,
just like you did just a second ago. You're like, oh,
I should can just notice first? How often do shoulds
come up in your life? When I work with my
clients and we start talking about this, they're like, oh,
I got to change my language around us because they
(16:51):
start to become more aware. Awareness is like such a
big first step. So you want to become aware first,
and then once you become aware again that journal. Why
is that a should in your life? Gotta understand, right?
Why am I holding onto this should? I should put
my kids to bed at seven? I should only give
my kids healthy foods. They should not have McDonald's. Right,
(17:15):
Why are you holding onto that? Well? You know they
say that kids shouldn't have any fast food, and like,
feel like I'm really not giving them the best things.
All right, look at all the things you're doing. Oh
but during the week you give your kids broccoli and
grilled chicken and sweet potatoes, and then on Fridays they
ask for McDonald's. Balance. Balance works, right? So I think
(17:40):
we start with awareness and then once we identify where
we tend to say should, start writing. Why am I
holding onto this belief? Is it because I truly believe this?
Or is it because society told me this is how
it should be? Oh, look I said it, or my
mom told me these are the rules I'm supposed to follow, right,
or my dad or my caregivers or whoever my friends.
(18:00):
This is what all my friends are doing. I need
to be doing it too. So just understanding the source.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
I wonder, doctor Mail, if there are particular shoulds you
have seen come up for black.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Women Mmmm, that's such a great question. There's definitely a
should related to parenting our kids. Right. My kid should
show up at school, hair done, clothes the best they
ever have been because we feel like we need to
represent in a particular way. I hear things around. I
(18:32):
should be a strong black woman because my ancestors have
done X, Y Z, because that's what's expected of me.
I should be careful with how loud I am in
a workplace because if I'm too loud, they're going to
criticize me. They're going to not give me the job
(18:52):
I want. We can do. Shouldn'ts too write. I shouldn't
ask for a raise because it's not my turn yet,
even though I've working really hard for a year, all
of these accomplishments I've had in my job, and then
it makes sense to ask for a raise. But people
get stuck in this idea of especially Black women, get
stuck in this idea of not asking for raisis. I
(19:15):
hear it a lot in our jobs. I should do
this particular job because I need to provide for my family.
I shouldn't pursue my passion because I need to show
up in a particular way so that I can be
respected as a black woman, respected as a black professional,
I should be partnered. So those are some of the
ones I hear a lot.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Yeah, I'm not surprised by anything that you shared, and
I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about
I mean, because in fairness, some of that is what
the world has told us, right, I mean, and we
do know that there are expectations, and we know that
racism and all the isms still exist. So how do
you balance the reality of the world with the things
(19:56):
that you would like to do that may be different
from what the world real tills us. That is possible?
Speaker 2 (20:02):
I think it's such a great question. The one that
was just coming up for me again was this idea
around hair. Right. We hear it so often. I should
wear my hair straight when I go to work, especially
if I'm in a corporate environment. I can't wear my
natural curly hair. They're not going to respect me, so
I should do this. So, first of all, when we
start to break free of some of these requirements and
(20:24):
rules and should there's risk taking involved, right, because we
are taking a risk. If the rule is every black
woman at work, she's got her hair straight, and if
I show up in these braids. I don't know what's
going to happen, Right, You're going to take a risk,
and you want to take what I call healthy risks. Right, So,
(20:46):
even if you're deciding to quit a job, even if
you're deciding to wear your hair differently than you ever have,
I say, take a healthy risk because I want you
to think it through. Impulsivity doesn't ever work well. But
I want you to think about both the advantages to
you doing what you want to do and the disadvantages.
I'm a firm believer in finding a culture that works
(21:07):
for you instead of you always trying to fit yourself
uncomfortably into a culture that just doesn't work. But even
that is a risk. Right. So if you say, at
my job, I tried to wear braids and everybody was
touching my hair and my superiors were looking at me strange,
and I just felt uncomfortable. So I went back to
wearing my hair straight because I needed to have my
(21:30):
job fair. I want you to keep your job, but
please start planning your exit strategy, because that's just the
tip of the iceberg in terms of how an environment
is going to try to control you. Right. And so
the world is telling us particular things, and there are
definitely spaces whereas black women, we are not going to
feel comfortable no matter what we do. We can shift, change,
(21:53):
tweak all we want, and they're still not going to
accept us. So it is a matter of taking a
healthy risk. All right, I can't be in this environment anymore.
I'm planning my exit strategy. So in a year, I'm
out of here. So I'm going to take everything I
need from this job. I'm going to start putting my
resume out, start networking, start figuring out how do I
(22:15):
get out of here right, And in a year, I'm
also going to start saving because in a year, I
gotta go because the impact on me is going to
be too great. So yes, the real world is out
there and it is telling us particular things, and we
have to find our spaces, our work environment, the right friends,
(22:35):
the right partners, the right networking situations. You have to
find the spaces where authenticity is valued.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
I really appreciate you bringing in the piece around risk
taking because I think that's important, right, Like some of
the things that you're suggesting and that we may desire
is a risk. What would you say to someone or
how might we be able to cope if we take
a risk, right, So maybe we're a little risk averse.
We take a risk because we wanted to do something different,
and then we don't get the expected results right, Like
it turns out it was a bad calculation or you know,
(23:06):
people just didn't accept it. What do we say to
ourselves to move past that?
Speaker 2 (23:10):
So start with grace and compassion. It has to be first,
because black women, Oh, we're the worst with our negative
self talk. We go in, right, that was so dumb.
You shouldn't have done that. There's a should, right, I
can't believe it. Oh, I'm such an idiot for believing that.
I knew this wasn't gonna work. See, this is what
happens when you step outside the box. I'm not doing
(23:32):
this anymore. But we have to have grace and self compassion.
Speak kindly to ourselves first and foremost. Applaud yourself for
taking a risk. It's not easy, right, it's scary af
to take a risk sometimes, and so the fact that
you had the courage to do it, applaud yourself for that,
(23:54):
and have grace and compassion when it didn't work out, right.
I think the second step there, though, is processing. We
have to have a good squad, right, and I know
you're so big on this, doctor Joy. Right, Having a
good group, particularly of female friends, who hold you down,
(24:15):
who cheer you on when things go well, who will
be your support when things don't go so well. Those
are the people you have to go to process. Don't
keep this in right, go to them when the risk
goes well too, But when the risk doesn't go well,
use your people, right it. Tap in to your people, y'all.
I need you. I need to talk through this because
(24:37):
I tried something, it didn't go well. I'm feeling bad,
but I need your help because those are the people
who are going to be good reflections. They're gonna be
good mirrors for you. They're gonna say, yeah, that was great.
Sometimes things don't work out, or I see why you
did that, and can I give you some feedback? Right,
But we need those people in our lives, so grace
(24:58):
and compassion first, watch that negative self talk, then tap
into your squad.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
I wonder if you could talk a little bit about
why black women are so critical of ourselves. And I
don't know if you know any numbers of research that
suggests this. I would love to hear it. I don't
know that we are more critical on ourselves than anybody else,
but we definitely do have a lot of negative self
talk and can be very critical of ourselves. That I
think then in turn becomes us being very critical of
(25:26):
other people. So can you talk a little bit about
why you think black women are so critical in our
self talk.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
I wish I had specific stats. I don't. I can
tell you anecdotally because my practice is probably about eighty
percent women of color, and then I do have the
other twenty percent that are white women. And I think
it comes down to two things. I think one is
sometimes the way we are parented, right, I hear a
(25:55):
lot of women who have grown up with hypercritical parents.
There wasn't a lot of room for mistakes, There wasn't
a lot of room for risk taking, and in fact,
there wasn't a lot of room for just problem solving
and decision making. A lot of that was just done
for us or put on us, or we're told what
(26:15):
to do without being able to necessarily always use our
own thoughts. And if something didn't go well, let's say
a sea got brought home on the report card, or
you got in trouble at school, or you were supposed
to practice for an event and you didn't. The hell
storm that comes down from parenting around a mistake or
(26:41):
not doing something you were supposed to do. It's heavy
and it's intense, and we learn from our parents in
terms of how to react to a thing. So we
get real critical because when we were young, those mistakes
were huge, even though they really weren't supposed to make mistakes.
As kids, we're supposed to mess up, right, But our
(27:04):
parents are so quick to come for us that when
we get older, that's what we know. Come for yourself
when you've messed up. It's not really often taught grace
and compassion, right. Can I share a small anecdote really
quickly about this thinking. So I have three kids. I
have a fourteen, eleven and a seven year old, and
(27:26):
when my daughter was in seventh grade last year, she
got caught cheating, and oh my goodness, I think this
is the other piece of it. As black parents, we
think I'm working so hard, I'm teaching you the right
from the wrong. I'm busting my butt to make sure
(27:47):
you get what you need, and then you do this
it feels like a personal affront. So often right as parents,
And I had to sit with myself for a second
right and say it is not going to help me
to go at this child and take everything that I'm
feeling and put this on her. She already feels horrible.
Charnie feels really bad because she knows how we are
(28:09):
in our house, right, So for me to then go
for her in that moment is only going to then
make her more anxious and be more critical of herself
as she gets older. So I know what it's like
as a parent, especially as a black parent, because we're
sitting here thinking our kids need to be representative of
who we are, so we come down on them harder, right,
(28:32):
And as black women, we grow up with that we've
got to be the representation of black women. So if
we mess up, the world is ending, and we've got
to teach ourselves that the world is not ending. That
everybody is a human and humans air, humans make mistakes.
We've got to develop better self compassion.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I really appreciate you sharing that because I definitely was thinking,
and I know you have three beautiful babies. I was
gonna ask you, like, Okay, as a mom, what kinds
of things can we be doing to not pass on
some of that, right, because as I hear you talking,
I know exactly what you're talking about, and I know
exactly why many of our moms parented the way that
they did and dads and caregivers, right, And I think
(29:13):
we also need to look at how effective are those
strategies and things anymore, And I think what you're arguing
is that largely they are not, especially in terms of
our long term mental health. So when I hear you say, Okay,
she gets caught cheating, I'm thinking all of these things
and now I have to figure out how to respond
to her. What I hear you talking about is having
(29:36):
to do a lot of regulation of yourself so that
you can respond to her in a way that she
does not internalize all this bad stuff about her. Can
you talk a little bit about what we need to
be doing in those moments and what kind of work
it takes to get to the place where you can,
you know, regulate and parent in that way. I'm asking
for myself.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
I hear it's hard. I'm just gonna say like, it's hard,
full transparency. It was nice because I heard about this
when she was not home, and then I had like
two hours before she got home to like process with
my husband, with my other mom friends who were all like,
(30:19):
I know you're mad and right, so yes, there is
some self work that has to happen. I think we
need to be really clear about what kind of parents
we want to be. Take a look at how you
were parented by grandma, by mom, by dad, right by
whoever was your caregiver, it was your aunt, whoever it was,
And take a look and say to yourself what did
(30:39):
I love about their parenting and what was really not great?
What made me feel bad as a kid. Right, there's
historical work we have to do because there's always connections,
and then you have to I'm going to go back
to it, have a really good squad, Right, Have people
in your life that are trying to raise their kids
(31:00):
similarly to how you're trying to raise them, who have
similar values. This may be a different group of girlfriends
than your girlfriends that you go to talk work related things, right,
because your work related things. Those girlfriends may not have
kids or maybe their great aunts and uncles, and they
could still be helpful. But my point is have a
good squad, because that's what helped me as soon as
(31:21):
it happened. I picked up my phone and I'm like,
you will not believe. And my husband is definitely a
really good yin and yang to me, so he does
not pop off as easily as I do. So he
brought me down. But my girlfriends were great. They were like,
everything you want to say to her, say it to us,
which was such a good pointer. They're like, every single
(31:41):
thing you want to be able to say to this child,
say it to us, so you can just get it out.
The emotion needs to go somewhere. I'm not telling you
not to feel angry, because it makes sense to feel angry.
I'm not telling you not to feel disappointed. That also
makes sense, but find a different place to put it
than on your child.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
I love that. Thank you for that, Doctor mill. More
from our conversation after the break. So you've mentioned the
importance of our squads at least twice now in our conversation,
and again you know I am a big fan of that.
(32:22):
But I also wonder, and you've already referenced this, that
sometimes the shoulds that we get will sometimes come from
the people in our lives, maybe including our squads. So
how can we assess for ourselves if we may be
unintentionally shoulting on other people.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Yeah, that's such a great point. So a couple of things,
and I think you know this and have said this too.
First of all, don't be afraid to reconfigure the squad. Right.
As we change and we shift, sometimes our friendships don't
grow with us. And that's okay, season reason, lifetime. Right,
(32:59):
Sometimes there were friendships that made sense when you are
at a certain phase in your life, and as you
move on to the next phase, they're not growing with you.
They're not shifting with you, so it doesn't make sense.
So I do think that that's part of it, right,
making sure your squad makes sense at the phase that
you are in your life. But when we are to
know if we're intentionally shoulting on other people, should there judgment? Right,
(33:22):
So you're not only just assessing if you're shoulding, assess
that you're judging? Right? Am I judging my friend? When
my friend comes to me and says, I'll take a
sensitive topic that has happened, right, I think that my
child is trans and so I'm allowing them to transition.
And then you get questions like are you sure that's
something you want to do? I mean, isn't such and
(33:42):
such a little young for that? All of that is
disguised judgment, disguised because they're not saying that's a bad thing,
don't do it, but that are you sure, don't you think?
Blah blah blah? Right, that's disguised judgment. And if you
find yourself doing the same thing, going to that friend
who's about to quit their job, and you're like, are
(34:04):
you sure you want to quit that job? I mean,
don't they pay you one hundred thousand dollars a year?
Can you make up that money somewhere else? That's judgment.
That's your own sense of judging their decision that you're
now putting on another person that does not feel good
when you're trying to make a life transition or a pivot.
(34:27):
So I think it's just listening to when you yourself
have judgments or biases or fears. Right, when we see
our friend getting ready to quit their job and you're like,
I want to do that, but I could never Are
you sure you want to do that? That's how it's
going to come out.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
I appreciate you pointing that out right, because a lot
of times our judgment is really based in our own
fear or our own wish that we could do something differently,
and now somebody else is doing it and it makes
us feel bad, I think about ourselves. So in the
example you gave, right, let's say somebody in your squad,
I'm seeing you in there, Like, I want to leave
this good government job, as people say, but I want
to do something else. I want to travel abroad for
(35:06):
a year. I want to do something completely different. What
kinds of things might we say or respond that are
not shitting on them?
Speaker 2 (35:14):
The first one is I love that I am big
of this. I love that for you? That sounds so exciting.
How'd you get here? Like? Why did you decide to
do that? Well, the job has been really rough. I've
been talking to you like I've just been feeling so
unseen and my boss is racist. Wow, that's awesome. Like,
I love that you have gotten to this place where
(35:34):
you feel like you're ready to make this next step.
How can I support you? End of story? Right, there's
no well, how are you going to do that? And
like a whole year of traveling abroad? Is that okay? Right?
Have you talked to your husband? I mean, have you
talked to your husband? Or your partner about that. That's
not a judgmental question, right, that's just kind of a like, hey,
have you like discussed this with the people in your life?
(35:55):
What are they saying about it? Are you feeling supported?
But the how can I support you? Is a really
great non judgmental way to be there for your friends
the excitement about what they've chosen, and y'all, tone matters.
So if somebody comes to you and share something they're
excited about and you're like, oh, that's cool, so let
(36:16):
me talk to you about X, Y Z and YLB
and if that is so clear that you actually do
not care or share in their excitement about the thing, right,
so like, let's actually feel enthusiastic about it. And if
you're not feeling enthusiastic about it, sit back for a
second and ask yourself, why am I not excited for
my friend? Why am I not excited for my bestie? Right?
(36:39):
She just came and shared amazing news with me. Why
am I feeling like, oh, that's fine and moving on?
Because there's something going on with you.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
So, doctor Mail, we have a shared love of pop
culture and all things film, movie, podcast, all the things
I'm wondering if you can identify some of your favorite
examples of women characters across tea, the books, and film
who you've seen stop shooting on themselves and how it
unlocks something for them.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Okay, I don't know why being Mary Jane is coming
to mind, even though that.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Was what I was thinking. She was the first one
that fassed into mind, like she's coming.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
To mind, even though that's been off for a little while.
But I think Mary Jane had a lot of shoulds
about who she should be professionally, who she should be dating, right,
that is a big one, like I should be dating
this really fancy, corporate whatever person, and I actually I am
(37:38):
really feeling like I love the art teacher at the
high school. Right. That wasn't who she loved, But there
was just so much distinction between those two, and people
have status wise or who I am I should be
dating a certain person. But I felt like with Mary Jane,
over time she let go of those shoulds and started
just leaning into what made her happy, right in terms
(38:04):
of her relationships, in terms of her work. Right, there
was a passion she had for what she was doing,
and like what it looked like to actually pursue that
regardless of the judgment around her, Right, it just allowed
her to feel better. I think at the end, right
in that last sort of long episode they had or
(38:25):
our movie, whatever they did, at the end, I think
what I recognize is that she just started feeling better
about her, Like there's joy when you let go of
shoulds and lean into what actually works for you. I'm
trying to think if there's another character that comes to mind.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Have you watched the Belle Air reboot?
Speaker 2 (38:47):
I have?
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Ooh, okay, so I feel like all of the women
characters there, like the Mom, Hillary an Ashley. Yes, I
feel like all of them. Through the series, we've seen
them let go of some of the shoulds about who
they should be and do something very different.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Yes, yes, yes, specifically I'm thinking about Hillary right, if
you think about it too, Even again our long this
dating piece, I think for a while she was hiding
her relationship with Jazz because she thinks she should have
been dating I mean, and she didn't start dating the
football player, but like she should have been dating somebody else, Right,
Jazz wasn't the person people would expect her to be with,
(39:24):
and she experienced dissonance around that because that's who she liked.
I actually liked how they changed it and made them
a couple because there was always this fight against it
in the original. But that was a big part. Even
though we're talking about women. I saw it a lot
with Vivian. But like Carlton, right, who Carlton was trying
to be in that show was messing him up, right.
(39:49):
It caused him to take drugs. It caused him to
have so much jealousy and envy because he thought he
should be a certain way and the people around him
should show up a certain way. And it was so challenging. Right.
I think Ashley with her sexuality for a while, she
was sort of hiding that and should be straight. But
I think once she came into a place where it
(40:11):
was like, It's okay for me to like girls, and
I'm going to tell people that she was able to
have relationships, right, she likes somebody, She felt freer with
her family, she could talk about it more freely. It
was so empowering.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Agreed, Agreed. I'm ready for the next season. I hope
we get it very soon.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
I really like it too. I like them. It's a
good show.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
So you've shared so much with us today, Doctor Miil.
I wonder if you could summarize or give us three
takeaways that you would like the community to have after
checking out your conversation here.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, so definitely to stop shooting on yourself, right, And
in order to do that, we have to develop an
awareness around our shoulds and then work towards why we
hold them and then what it looks like to let
it go. That's a really long one. I think the
second takeaway is taking some time to tap in and
(41:04):
understand what brings you joy, what makes you tick. Right,
so many of us deny and don't pay attention to
what makes us tick. We're so busy following rules that
are archaic and at a date and don't even make
sense anymore, but we're still following them, right. So really,
just taking time to tap in with yourself and really
(41:27):
get to know yourself. And you can do that in
so many different ways, but journaling is such a really
great place to start. And I think the third one.
I really enjoyed our conversation on parenting, and so I
think making sure that number one, you have a great
squad for feedback, and you have a great squad who
you can go and you can give them all the
(41:50):
stuff you would want to give to your kids in
the heat of the moment, but also as a parent,
like instead of getting caught up and how we should
parent because our moms told us how to, because society
tells us how to, really think about, how did I
want to be parented? What kind of kids do I
want to raise right? And how do I get closer
to that based on the values the shoulds I let
(42:11):
go of, letting go of some of these rules, like
really again taking time to like understand if the shoulds
are impacting your parenting and if they are, how do
you let them go?
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Thank you for those So, where do we stay connected
with you? Doctor Meiel? What is your website as well
as any social media challenge you want to share?
Speaker 2 (42:29):
Absolutely, so it's really easy to remember. On all socials,
I am doctor mel So It's literally i am d
R M E L on all socials, I'm the most
on Instagram and TikTok. And then my website is I
amdoctormeil dot com.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
And can we find information about your coaching there?
Speaker 2 (42:49):
My website is currently being redesigned and launched in April,
and that is when my coaching program will open. Up
again right now. I'm not taking new members, but you
go to my Instagram and click on my link tree.
There is a waitlist sign up there for Limitless and Fearless.
So if you are interested and once it launches again
(43:10):
in April and you want to know more and find out,
I'll also be doing some free webinars leading up to it,
then just hop on my Instagram. My link tree is
linked on TikTok too, and there's a waitlist. Join that
waitlist and you will not miss a beat.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Perfect. We'll be sure to include all of that in
the show notes. Thank you so much for spending some
time with us again, Doctor Mail, and I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Thank you so much for having me, Doctor Joy. As always,
it is so easy to have conversation with you. I
can't even believe the time has passed.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Already, right right, Thank you, thank you so much. I'm
so glad Doctor Mail was able to join us today
to share her expertise. To learn more about her and
her work, visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls
dot com slash Session three point fifty seven, and don't
forget to chext this episode two of your Girls right now.
(44:02):
If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check
out our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com
slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into
this topic or just be in community with other sisters,
come on over and join us in the Sister Circle.
It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for
black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy
(44:23):
for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Elise
Ellis and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford.
Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week.
I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all
real soon. Take good care.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
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