June 12, 2024 • 50 mins
It’s easy to dismiss dating reality TV shows like Love Island and The Bachelor as trashy, guilty pleasure TV, but as we watch Black women contestants continuously get discarded by their male counterparts, chosen last if chosen at all, and edited in a way that promotes stereotypes, it can make the IRL pursuit of romance feel a lot more bleak.
Digging into this idea a little bit more with me today is Dr. Sarah Adeyinka-Skold. Dr. Sarah earned her sociology doctoral degree from the University of Pennsylvania, where she studied how the processes of finding romantic partners with racial and gender inequality in the United States. She is also a licensed clinical social worker in three states. During our conversation, we chatted about viral dating show contestants like AD & Tiffany from Love is Blind, Paige from Married at First Sight, and how their stories — and the world’s reactions to them – reflect the real life woes that Black women face while trying to date in a society where we face both gender and racial discrimination.
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The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for Session three sixty three of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Hi.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
I'm doctor Sarah Audiyenka Scold and I'm on the Therapy
for Black Girls Podcast. I'm in session today unpacking the
depiction of black women on dating shows.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
It's easy to dismiss dating reality TV shows like Love
Island and The Bachelor as trashy, guilty pleasure TV. But
as we watch, black women, contestants continuously get discarded by
their male counterparts. Chosen last if chosen at all and
edited in a way that promotes stereotypes. It can make
the IRL pursuit of romance feel a little more bleak.
(01:49):
Digging into this idea a little bit more with me
today is doctor Sarah adayenk scold. Doctor Sarah earned her
sociology doctoral degree from the University of Pennsylvania. She studied
how the processes of finding romantic partners with racial and
gender inequality in the United States. She's also a licensed
clinical social worker in three states. During our conversation, we
(02:12):
chatted about viral dating show contestants like ad and Tiffany
from Love Is Blind, Page from Married at First Sight,
and how their stories in the world's reactions to them
reflect the real life woes that black women face while
trying to date in a society where we face both
gender and racial discrimination. If something resonates with you while
enjoying our conversation, please share it with us on social
(02:34):
media using the hashtag TBG in session or join us
over in the sister circle To talk more about the episode.
You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls
dot Com. Here's our conversation. Well, thank you so much
for joining me today. Doctor Adrienke scold.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Thank you so much for having me, doctor Joy, I
really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
So we are a huge faith of all things pop
culture and reality TV. A lot of our production teams
since a lot of time watching these things, especially as
it relates to Black women, and so I am curious
to hear a little bit more about your work. So
you are a sociologist who studies a lot around black
women and reality TV and dating shows. So can you
tell me, like, what trends have you noticed regarding black
(03:20):
women's for pseudo romantic relationships, particularly how they are shown
in the media.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Yeah, so, thankfully I don't have to rely on reality
TV shows. I've been really privileged to be able to
talk to black women about their experiences. I wrote my
dissertation on dating and the Digital Age, so I did
interview Asian, Black, Latina, and white women. But I've been
really more interested in black women's stories because they are
(03:48):
so unique. So what I find is not that different
from what we see. A lot of black women have
been writing about this idea of Black women sort of
feeling excluded in terms of romance, feeling as though they
are not desired by black and non black men, feeling excluded,
and we see that in person but also very much online.
(04:12):
And Black women also have a unique experience in that
we are the only group where we can't count on
men of our own racial background to choose us as partners.
So that's what I've been working on looking at, but
also thinking about black women is really resilient, which is
a double edged sword, because we don't want Black women
(04:34):
to think that they always need to be resilient. I
think a lot about how we're living in a society
that is structured by gender and racial hierarchies, and so
in order to survive it, we do have to call
on our resilience. So with's something that's inevitable, I feel
forced on us. But Black women are also making their
(04:56):
way in the world even as they are dealing with
these obstacles in terms of romance, and I think one
thing that's been nice about this work is feeling as
though I'm bearing witness to black women's experiences. So it's
sort of one thing to read about it on CNN
or to read about it in online blogs or whatever,
(05:17):
But to have a sociologist or an academic sort of
validate your experience, I think is also an important aspect
and something that I feel really privileged to do. So
the trends that I notice, I think are kind of
what a lot of people have seen, which is not
surprising when you have people that are sort of at
the bottom of the gender and the racial hierarchy, which
(05:38):
is that Black women oftentimes feel as though they are
excluded as romantic partners by black men. They are also
excluded by non black men. These men often rely on
what Patricia Hill Collins calls controlling images. So this idea
of black women's womanhood and sexuality is like hyper masculine
(05:59):
or sexually deviant or hyper sexual, and so they experience that,
but they also, on the flip side, experience phedgecization. So
the idea is that they're going to be offering some
sort of out of this world sexual experience to people
because they're Black women. The tropes that whites use to
demonize and demean Black women and really ultimately to justify
(06:24):
sexual assault and sexual violence against Black women, non black
men will often use these sort of tropes if they
include Black women. So it's kind of like we can
come together. I can choose you as a romantic partner.
But also because I see you in this particular lens.
And of course there's normal experiences, right as we saw
(06:44):
all Love is Blind with Tiffany and Brett, right, so they,
as far as we know, are still doing really well,
and like that was just really uplifting to see, So
that happens as well. But what I'm talking about is
these other experiences that are all so well known to
black women where either they're fetishized or they're excluded. So
(07:04):
I could go into a lot more detail, but that's
what I find in terms of Black women dealing with
these issues. But black women also know how to take
care of themselves. They exit out of dating apps or
out of the search for romantic partners if it's just
feeling like too much. Right, So, as a sociologist, I'd say,
if the burdens of living in a shatify society, if
(07:26):
they're feeling like I'm experiencing this too much, if they're
feeling like their mental health is really burdened, they find
ways to take care of themselves, either taking temporary or
permanent breaks, really tapping into their social networks, going to therapy.
These are all ways in which black women care for themselves.
Deciding that they're not going to date non black men
(07:48):
because they don't want to deal with the fetricalization or
the exclusion. So there are also strategies that they use
to kind of regain that agency that's been eroded as
they are searching for romantic partners.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
So, Doctor Sarah, you have said so much already. I mean,
there's just so much that's been off for them. But
one of the early comments you made was around how
even in your research you found that black women can't
count on black men to kind of be interested in
them romantically in the ways that other communities might.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Can you say.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
More about that? And I'm guessing it's connected to some
of these stereotypes that you've already talked about, but can
you say more about why that's happening.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Yeah, So, just based on some really interesting quotes that
I got from my respondents, one woman said that one
he was a Dominican black guy and he said to her, well,
I don't date black women because they are intimidating or
they emaculate you, and with white women it's just easy.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
He was like, it might be boring.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
It might be easy, Like basically you might not like it,
but at least it's not going to be difficult whatever
that means, right, or women who have experiences where men
will say things like, oh, well, I've never basically the
F word bang the black woman before, so you'll have
that in terms of pratialization. So yeah, So basically what
(09:14):
we're seeing when we see that happening is that black
men have adopted these controlling images, right, they have internalized
them as well in some ways that's the point of them, right.
So the ideas that we have, the society that's deeped
in white supremacy, is founded on white supremacy and the
idea of controlling images, the idea of making black women
(09:37):
as other They are basically doing what we're all primed
to do. And so basically it's this idea that black
women are at the bottom of this racial, engendered hierarchy,
and black men are saying, yeah, we too have adopted
these beliefs, these ideologies, these ways in which others think
about black women, and we're going to also utilize those
(09:59):
justification as a way to reject you as romantic partners.
So you know, when people say like, oh, black women
are too loud, or black women need to tone themselves down,
these are the same kinds of justifications that you will
often find. Or my respondents said they were finding if
black men talk to them, told them why they were
(10:20):
turning them down. It's sad, But the idea here is
that we are subject to the way in which our
society is set up racially.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
We are subjects. It bears down on all of us.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
So in some ways I think about it as like
we could blame black men, or we could blame white
supremacy and say a lot of people are functioning in
white supremacy.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
They might not realize it.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
They might think they have an original opinion, but it's like, no,
it's not an oliginal opinion. We see this in media
all the time. You're just regurgitating these ideas that are
literally steeped in our society, and you're using them as
a way to reject Black women. All kinds of women
are angry, all kinds of women are intimidating, all kinds
(11:03):
of women are successful. Black women don't have a monopoly
on any of those things. But when you are in
a society that says, not only do they have a
monopoly on these things, but these things make them deviant, different,
less valuable than other women, Right, it's reinforced time and
time again, in some ways it's hard to escape.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
So, I mean, so you've already touched on the idea
that like media of course, is one avenue where some
of these stereotypes are continue to be perpetuated. Can you
talk a little bit about like the intersection of that
with reality shows and dating shows? Right, So, we know
that there is often a lot of conversation around like
how black women are portrayed on dating shows. Can you
(11:45):
talk a little bit about maybe things that you found
in your work or just your observations of how black
women are portrayed on dating shows.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
So, even though I don't study reality shows as my
academic subject, I watch them and I think that they're
important because so many people watch them. Right, So, like
Love Is Blind just had its sixth season, so that's
quite some time. So it's important to think about how
black women get portrayed in these shows because I would
(12:13):
say the way in which the editing happens is they're
often playing to stereotypes. Right, So I think with Oh
my goodness, Clay and Ad, for instance, the ways in
which Ad gets portrayed is not necessarily in the best light.
In that same season, there was another black woman who
(12:33):
I believe was successful in getting a partner, but we
never saw her. They didn't tell that story. So we
see her once, and then when we see her, she's
portrayed in like this weird way. We see ad multiple times,
and the way that she's edited is basically to portray
these stereotypes of black women. But also even if they
(12:54):
didn't have the edits, I think that we also saw
how cast members, non black cast members talked about her
right the ways in which they spoke about her body,
which really, I would say, like encapsulated this idea again
of black women as like other people's properties, their bodies
don't belong to them.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
The ways in which.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
People are speaking about their bodies is your body belongs
to us. We get to say what your womanhood is like,
we get to say what your sexuality is like. So
even if they hadn't edited that way, maybe they even
saved us from worse things. Who knows, you know, you
never know, But the thing is they still showed that.
And I think about the contrast to Tiffany and Bread,
(13:35):
where we didn't see.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Any of that as much.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
I just felt like Tiffany got to be like her
full self. We didn't see castmates, at least, they didn't
show us Casswades talking about her body or anything like that,
and so sometimes I wonder why is it? And these
seasons were essentially back to back, I believe, so it
made me wonder, well, why was the portrayal of Tiffany
(13:59):
so wholesome? And then what was the reaction to that
that made us revert back to our old ways of
portraying black women in these very stereotypical ways. And then
maybe Clay did get portrayed a particular kind of way,
but I also don't know if they hadn't edited, if
we wouldn't have seen that as well.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
It's also not like black men.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Were unscathed right in the ways in which they were portrayed.
But I do think that in eighties case, like even
if we took away the choices that she might have made,
just seeing the ways in which she was treated and
the ways in which people talked about her very much
characterizes this idea of again black women being seen as
(14:42):
an other and then people really thinking that, yeah, I
can talk about her as another, right, We're not seeing
them talking about white women or latinas or anybody else
in that fashion. So I think that that's very pervasive
and it seeps into our television, and I honestly think
that people think that they can talk about black women
like this because they might watch other reality TV shows,
(15:05):
the Housewives of Atlanta or Housewives of I think Potomac,
Potomac exactly. So I feel like it's a really hard
space to be in because, in the one hand, black
women should get to be in spaces where they are themselves.
I was actually listening to your podcast with Differny Cross
(15:25):
just before we got on, and she's talking about these
spaces where like black women can breathe. They should, Black
women should be able to do their reality TV shows
the way that they want. There's Housewives of New York,
Housewives of New Jersey, Housewives of Orange County. I don't
get the sense that those housewives are confined to a
particular way of looking at white women. There's this complete
(15:48):
humanity that they get, whereas I get the sense it's
like we have to portray black women in this particular
way unless people aren't going to believe that it's actually real.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
We really buy on.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Stereotypes of black women all the time to get people
to view things. Why, right, why do we think that
if we didn't just let black women be one hundred
percent who they are, that people will be about that.
When I did the interview for Vox about Love is Blind,
the interviewer had talked about how some people were like, oh,
Brett and Tiffany were so boring? Why why would you
(16:23):
say that? We don't say that for any other of
the white couples. We don't say we everyone wants to know, Oh,
what's the latest thing?
Speaker 2 (16:30):
What are they doing? But blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
And then we see something similar with I think it
was Cameron and Lauren. They're the first, the first, the first,
and so again it's like everyone is curious.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
I feel like they're like these museum pieces.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Either it's boring or it's interesting because it's just so
different from what we normally see, and it's like, well,
why can't Brett and Tiffany just be humans? No one
is criticizing the white couples as boring. No one is
complaining right that, like they're living their best lives. So
(17:03):
it's hard because I want black women to be able
to be on reality shows but not feel as though
they're constantly pigeonholed into these controlling images and for the
media to feel like, well, we have to portray black
people as somewhat dysfunctional or it's going to be deemed
as pouring, or people aren't going.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
To want to tune into our shows.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Again, this is evidence that we're living in a society
structured by white supremacy.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Why is it that we always.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Run to images that demean and dehumanize black women as
the place where we're going to make money, as the
place where we're going to get our viewership. Why is
that always the default? Those are the questions that I have.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Yeah, and doctor Srry, it feels hard to think about,
like the colorism angle there with Ad and especially as
opposed to Tiffany right in the back to back seasons.
Like Tiffany, it does feel like it's a very different
edit verse this Ad. Maybe it's not even so much editing,
but like the story that we saw and what they
showed us. Of course, like Ad is a darker skin sister,
and so we know all the stereotypes about darker skinned women,
(18:11):
and you know what that means in adding to this,
like hyper sexual like fetishization like you mentioned of her
versus somebody like a Tiffany, right, right, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
I think that's an added layer as well. Right, So
it's interesting to think about both of them as black women.
People are telling us, oh, Tiffany is boring, and people
are telling us AD is making bad decisions or like,
we're seeing these stereotypes. But like they're both caught in
this bind, right, They're both subject to these ways, and
(18:45):
there's both subject to no grace, right, just complete judgment.
But the severity does in fact vary because of colorism, right,
The ways in which people might experience these controlling images
or how people view them because of it or because
of white supremacy is very much mediated by skin color
(19:06):
and pigmentation and phenotype. And yeah, as expected, the darker
woman is getting it a lot worse than a woman
who might be more light skinned.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
So dot to Sarah, I'm curious to hear your thoughts
on this. So I have often struggled with whether it
feels psychologically safe for black women to even participate in
dating shows and reality shows like this because I think
about AD. But I think the most glaring example for
me was Page from Married at First Sight. Paige was
(19:37):
also matched with a black man, and it just felt
like she was constantly tortured in my mind, like he
didn't want to be with her, so he said yes
to the marriage, but then would like be gone for
days at a time or constantly putting her down, and
it just felt like this is not good. This feels
very psychologically torturous, even to me as the viewer, so
(19:58):
I can only imagine what it it is like for
her living the experience, and so it just makes me question, like, yes,
I also want black women to be able to have
the fullness of opportunity to kind of do the things
that anybody else does. But I do think these situations
sometimes just it feels like us getting so much more
of the shorter side of the stick and just not
(20:19):
even a fun thing, right, Like, even if you don't
go on these shows your life partner, like it could
just still be a fun experience or career opportunities often
come from these kinds of things, but it often feels
like that kind of thing does not outweigh the negative
side effects so to speak, of participating in some of
these kinds of shows.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Yeah, it is definitely a complicated thing because I think
about how so much of Black women's agency is constrained
by living in a society that's underguarded under the foundation
is white supremacy, right, and so a lot of the
decisions that we make or can make our so our
(21:01):
agency is constrained. We don't have as many options. And
when we do make decisions right, the ways in which
we're judged, they're so vast right, we can't catch a break, right.
So there are ways in which women are judged in general,
and then you get this intersectionality of our race and
depending on if you're educated, if you have a college
degree versus not, they're just these ways in which you
(21:22):
can't do anything without feeling the brunt of it. And
so I am caught too when I think about this,
because again, I want black women to be able to
do whatever they want, right. If they want to go
on a show where they're just having fun, even if
they don't want to find their mate, or they do
(21:43):
want to find a romantic partner, I want to them
to be able to go on a show and do
that right. Lots of people do that in this world,
and they make money, and there are so much more
that can come from going on these shows. I want
that for them, But at the same time, I do
feel like it's hard because how does it bear on
their mental health and their mental wellbeing? For the individuals
(22:08):
that go on the show. That's the first sort of layer.
And then the second layer is for black women who
are watching these shows, how does that impact them? How
do we feel when we see ourselves in us society?
It is ourselves?
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Right?
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Like, this is why representation where we're talking about, this
is why it matters. So as much as we want
to distance ourselves and see ourselves as individuals from the
folks that are on TV, at the same time, we
do still see ourselves. So like, what does it mean
to be a black woman watching other black women undergo this.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Kind of treatment? Right?
Speaker 3 (22:46):
What does it mean for our mental health in that way?
And then to think about the collective right as black
women in general, as we are moving through the world,
moving through to a society that continues to reinforce these
controlling images, these gendered racial stereotypes, what does that mean
(23:08):
for us? It's naive to think that we just get
to move through the world as individuals and ignoring that
people watch these shows and really expect a particular kind
of behavior out of us and treat us because they
might not actually have Black women in their lives, or
they might have their quote unquote black friends, but they're
(23:30):
not actually talking to them or having these conversations.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
So there are these three layers.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
And yet I come back to why do black women
have to worry about that white women aren't going on shows?
Wondering how it's going to collectively impact white women, right
like latinas aren't going on shows, Asian women they're not
going on shows, and thinking like, oh, how is this
going to impact other women that share my ethno racial background.
(23:58):
And I feel like black women are also carrying this
burden of like how will it impact young black women?
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Right?
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Like, we just have all this extra emotional labor, all
this extra emotional burdens, all this work that we have
to do just to exist and to thrive in the US.
So for me, just like you, I struggle between let
them have their agency, they can make whatever decisions they want,
(24:26):
and also but how does this reflect on us?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
And honestly, I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Keep doing what you're doing because everybody else is getting
to live their best life. Just make sure that you
have the resources that you need to take care of
yourself after the fact. So hopefully page Ad Tiffany have
the supports that they need in order to shore themselves
(24:54):
up before they go on the shows, while they're on
the shows, and after they go from the show. I
want to be on the side of let black women live.
We are as fully human as everybody else, and they
shouldn't have to worry about alleviating a system that they
(25:14):
had nothing to do with creating. It's simply not their
faults and it's not their responsibility. If there's a person
on Love is Blind that seeds what's happening a white person,
you call it out. You see how people are talking
about Ad, you call that out. If you see how
people are talking about Brett and Tiffany, you call that out.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
It's not black women's.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Role to alleviate a system that didn't set up. So
that's kind of where I end up landing on it,
because I'm not gonna be for anything that continues to
constrain the decisions that black women make.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
They get to make bad decisions. That's it.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
That's where I stand, and as black people, we need
to be okay with giving black women the grace that
we give unfettered to any other group of people. It
doesn't mean that we don't get to criticize people's decisions.
It doesn't mean that we shouldn't call out bad behavior.
(26:16):
It doesn't mean that we let people walk free if
there are ways in which they're doing things that are
harmful to themselves. But let us be as gracious as
we unconsciously are for anybody else that's not a black person,
and that is especially not a black woman. In the end,
that's where I'm going to fall because I'm not going
(26:39):
to join a society that says we get to control
you and your body.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
I just refuse.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
Yes, the consequences may not be good for me, maybe
they're not going to be good for my daughter, but
I'm going to raise my daughter to be like, this
is the world that you live in, But I also
want you to be able to move in ways that
give you as much agency as possible. It's complicated, it's
a hard way to live. But I'm not gonna stand
(27:07):
in the way of black women doing the things that
they need to do to live what they feel is
a fulfilling and meaningful life.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
I'm just not gonna do it.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
More from our conversation after the break Why do friendship
breakups sometimes hurt more than romantic ones? How do I
make friends in a new city. Is it true that
women can't actually be good friends to one another. I'm
exploring all of these questions and so much more in
(27:37):
my book, Sisterhood Heels, now available in paperback at your
local independent bookstore or at sisterhood Heels dot com. Grab
a copy for you and your girls, and let's talk
about it. So, doctor Sarah, you have I think this
(27:59):
interesting staying background, and that you are a sociologist but
also a licensed clinical social worker. We know that on
some of the shows like a Love Island and even
some of the other ones that we've already talked about,
we will often see the black women picked the last,
if they are picked at all. And so I'm curious
to hear you know some more maybe from the clinical side,
in terms of like the impact that this kind of
(28:19):
thing can have on your self esteem, both as a
contestant but also as a viewer.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
So, even though what I've said in terms of let
black women live, the consequences are very real, right, So
for black women, I feel like only maybe in the
last five to ten years, we've really been taking seriously
black women's mental health, thinking about the rates of depression
in our communities, thinking about the burdens of being the
(28:46):
strong black woman, thinking about the ways in which living
in a society undergirded by white supremacy impacts how we
think about ourselves, and the true negativity that we experience
as a result of that. So I think that it
is and it would be really hard to watch these
shows and not to walk away thinking that there is
(29:09):
something actually wrong with Black women the way in which
we are portrayed and in the ways in which we
are chosen last, and not the thing as a black woman,
that there is something wrong with you, right, So I
think that there is real damage that is done there,
and it's a unique kind of damage because there are
shows that we can watch. You can watch Housewives of
(29:31):
Orange County and see the ways in which women in
general are portrayed. There's no house Husbands of Orange County
or house Husbands of Potomac or anything like that. So
we're definitely as a society benefiting from the ways in
which we portray women in a particular kind of way.
And then when we add to that black women, that's
(29:52):
definitely compounded. So I think, yes, there are real emotional
sacrifices that women are making when they join the show
and also when we watch the show. So I think,
as black women again, thinking about our own agency. I
want black women to be making informed decisions as much
as they can. So not just making any decision right,
(30:14):
not just saying well, I have my agency, I'm so
I'm going to do whatever I want to do.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Well, how can.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
You make a decision that mitigates the harm to you?
How do you make decisions that mitigate the mental burden
to you? How do we make decisions that increase our
self esteem and not decrease it. If I had a
client come to me and say, hey, I'm thinking about
(30:41):
going on Love is Blind? What do you think about it?
So that's a place where I would say, tell me
a little bit more about what you hope to gain
from going on Love is Blind. Tell me what it
is that you want, what are the goals that you
want to accomplish, And then let's think about what are
then what do you think could be some of the
(31:02):
things that could be some disadvantages from you going on
the show?
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Right?
Speaker 3 (31:07):
What are things are make you worried about? Going on
the show as a sociologist. I'm bringing stats, I'm bringing evidence,
I'm bringing data into this conversation. Okay, so this is
what we know happens on the show, This is what
we know goes on with black women when they're on there.
This might be what we know about the women afterwards.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Right. So I'm also there helping to.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Guide that decision process, and so I want them to
be able to make that decision based on the work
that we're doing in the sessions together, but also based
on sort of this sociological data and evidence that I'm presenting.
Same thing is if a contestant came and said, oh
my gosh, doctor Sarah, that show was terrible for me. Okay,
(31:51):
why was it terrible? What were you expecting to happen?
And what happened? Are there things in your background that
you feel have made it feel worse? How does it
feel to be a black woman? How can we work
together to think about like how that made the experience
even worse for you. I'm not going to judge her
and say, well, you definitely just shouldn't have gone on
(32:11):
the show.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
That was a bad idea.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
I'm going to sit with her in that place and say, Okay,
these are the stressors, this is the distress. How do
we bring that down? And ultimately, in both scenarios, how
do we create a situation where you're continuing to feel
fully human and what does that full humanity look like
for you?
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Right?
Speaker 3 (32:34):
So, that's the work that I'm going to be doing
in either of those sessions, regardless of if the woman
the first scenario decides she's going to go on, she's
going to go on fully armed and have some she
might have some better idea right of what's going to
happen on the show, and hopefully we've come up with
some resources to deal with those issues in the same
(32:57):
vein the woman in the second scenario, Hopefully she's going
to walk away from those sessions being like, we've reduced
the harm to me, I have the resources that make
me feel fully human. And yeah, she might regret, but
hopefully what she's also going to work away with is
she's enough and that she got to make that decision,
(33:17):
and now what is she going to do after the
fact to make sure that she continues to feel fully
human and continues to make decisions that promote her mental
and physical wellbeing.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Doctor Sarah what kinds of shows are you watching recently?
Is there anything that you've watched lately in the dating
reality world that has peaked your research brain.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
That's a good question.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
So I've actually just been watching a lot of Selling
Sunset to be quite honest, you know, But something that
I'm always curious about is global blackness, right, So, like,
how do black women on Love Is Blind Brazil or
The Ultimatum South Africa. I'm like ready to watch Ultimateum
(34:02):
South Africa because i want to see what is going
on there. So I think that's where I'm headed in
terms of reality TV shows. So it's funny that you
ask that, because in terms of guarding my own mental health,
I actually am very careful about when I watch something.
So if I'm in the middle of writing a lot
(34:22):
about black women, I end up staying away from the
reality TV shows because it's just a lot, And so
like I end up watching things like Selling Sunset or
things that where black women aren't necessarily censored because I'm
already writing about them and I'm thinking about them and
I'm living the life as a black woman. And then
(34:43):
when I'm like I'm done with this writing piece, I'm
done with this research piece. Then I can go back
into the shows where I know I'm going to be
hyper focused on what's going on with the black people
in the shows. So that's how I navigate and make
sure that I'm keeping my self whole and I'm keeping
myself safe and I'm mitigating harm to myself even as
(35:06):
I'm a viewer but also someone who's doing a lot
of this work and again living life as a black woman.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Are you familiar with some of the shows that are
on the own network, So, like Ready to Love, there's
a newer one called The Never Have Met. That one's newer,
so you probably have not, but Ready to Love has
had a couple of seasons.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
I think I have heard of Ready to Love.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
So it's hosted by nephew Tommy, who I think has
a background in like being a radio personality. They pick
a specific city to go to each season, and like
it is singles that they have in like at one
point it was a hotel that they were all in,
but usually it is that they are all living in
the same city and they have meetup spaces where the
(35:48):
guys are on one side, the women are on one side,
and they jointly talk about who they're going to keep
from the other side, to continue to get to know
and in the end they pair up, are kind of
way through the options, so to speak, and like they
will say they're ready to love and like continue this
relationship with one other person. And so in my mind
it does feel like now it's still you know, reality TV,
(36:10):
so we know that there's editing going on, but it
does feel like there is a different and these are
like largely black casts. I think they have been all
black casts up until this point, and so it does
feel like there is a different slant to those kinds
of experiences, Like they don't feel as difficult for me
to watch, Like it feels like a more fun watch,
even when there is a little bit of messiness and
(36:30):
you know whatever, Like that feels human, right, And so
it feels like just the editing and the way that
stories are told when I am assuming that the casting
is like more black people on the team, like the
editing team is likely at least more people of color,
and so it definitely feels like they are telling different
stories about black women and black men dating than you
would see on like a Bachelor or a Love is
(36:53):
Blind kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
Right, that brings up questions too, right, because the thing
is when you bring together black people, you're also going
to have the heterogeneity that exists in blackness.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Right, So it makes me wonder again to your.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Point, it's on Own, right, a network that we know
is promoting black people things and black people culture. And
I'm just like, I'm like, oh, I've never heard of
it because it's not on Netflix and it's not on Hulu.
Why it's not on Bravo? Right, I'm gonna have to
like go through and like look and see where I
can get Owned specifically, Right, is it on a streaming service?
(37:33):
I'm gonna have to work hard to get that. It
makes me upset. I should be able to go onto
Netflix or Own should be available in very much the
way that Netflix is available.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
So in some ways, we're having.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
A larger conversation, Right, it's not just about how people
are being portrayed, but what we actually have easy access
to because I pay my little six dollars a month
for Netflix, right, But now I have to go and
search to see, well, how can I get Own as well?
It's like it literally is constraining my agency. Now I
(38:08):
have to go do all this work just to get
access to that. And so again it's this bigger question
of we're living in this society that seems hell bent
on showing us a particular kind of way. Literally, this
is the first time I'm hearing about the show from you.
And I have lots of black women friends who will
text me, have you seen this show? Have you seen
(38:29):
nat show? But nobody has texted me to tell me
about have you seen it? Like ready to love? Maybe
because they don't know about it either. Right, So, on
the one hand, that's what happens when you censor black
people in general, right, And so what you're bringing is
a diversity of experiences. We can talk about the editing team,
(38:50):
we can talk about what is going into telling those stories,
but even to begin just bringing black human beings together,
you're gonna get a diversity of stories. It's gonna be
hard for you to just pigeonhole all the black women
into controlling images and pigeonhole all the black men into
some sort of caricature that we have of black men
(39:12):
in general. And so I think that's even just the
starting point. And then we talk about all of the
folks that are going in to making sure those stories
are well rounded and people's humanity are coming forward. I
can't be sure that the solution for Love is Blind
is like hire more people of color. That's not necessarily
how white supremacy works. White supremacy gets internalized by all
(39:36):
kinds of people, even black people. So even if you
just throw black people at the show in terms of
the editing or the choices, that doesn't necessarily mean that
you're going to come out with the show that humanizes.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Black people, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
And so it's like we need to also have a
conversation about why there's a own network where we have
to go there to see black people who are also
fully human. Why do I have to go to a
completely different network to go watch shows that show black
people in their full humanity.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
That's a travesty.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
No one's writing about that, right, No one's writing about
the ready to Love. So we're not writing about this,
like we're still stuck in the controversy of Love is Blind.
I want to see articles about ready to Love. I
want to see think pieces. You know, in some ways,
when we saw this with Insecure, right, there was just
this well roundedness. We were actually having important conversations about
(40:36):
black humanity because Isaiah was like, I'm gonna show us
in all of our messy glory. Right, it shouldn't have
to be a fictional show to get that. We should
also get that from just the way Black people live
their heterogeneous lives and have experienced their heterogeneous humanity. So
now I'm gonna go look for it because I want that,
(40:58):
you know, I want to see that exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
More from our conversation after the break. So you know.
The other thing, Doctor Sarah, that has been interesting as
there have been more shows and more contestants talking about
their experiences. One of the things we know that often
happens in these shows on like a Love Is Blind
(41:25):
and The Bachelor, like there also tends to be a
lot of alcohol available. We also know that sleep, it
seems like from some of the contestants, is difficult, like
they keep them up late and shooting all hours of
the day and night. Can you talk about some of
the things you think need to be present just in
terms of the wellness of all contestants for experiences like this.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
So they should have the option of not having to
drink if they don't want to, right, and thinking about
for starters, people have often suggested having actual clinicians on
the show. I think that could go a really long way,
and not just anyal clinicians, Like we could have a
variety of clinicians. If you're going to have people on
(42:07):
the show, make sure you have black qualified clinicians on
the show. And if it's reality TV, do we not
want reality? Do we not want people that are well rested?
Do we not want people who are getting three meals
a day, who's drinking alcohol all day and staying up
all night. I mean people do that in college. They
don't do that. So we could talk about what could
(42:30):
be there for wellness. But if that isn't there, what
is it that you're trying to show us?
Speaker 2 (42:37):
Then?
Speaker 3 (42:37):
What are your intentions when you are artificially creating situations
that are terrible for people's mental well being? What are
your actual intention What is it that you want us
to be coming away with when you're creating situations that
are actually bad for people's mental health. So, again, if
black people are going to go on these shows, I
(42:59):
would stay. Demand that you're able to get the amount
of sleep that you need to be able to function properly,
Demand that you can see a professional If you're having
any mental health issues that you need to talk with.
I would demand that you get to eat healthy food,
(43:21):
right if you're vegan or vegetarian, that you have those options,
that you get to take walks. I know that they
often make them leave their cell phones and things, but like,
what is it that you need? Do you need time
to read? Do you need time to take walks? Do
you need time to exercise? I almost feel like, if
you're going to go on the show as a black person,
(43:43):
think about what you need to thrive in your life,
and then what are like the many ways? What are
the basic things that you need to have to be
able to go on the show and do it in
a way that's meaningful to you. Right, So there's the
basics like sleep, not drinking all the time, being able
(44:04):
to exercise, But what else do you need to be
able to feel like you're presenting your best self? And
again this is a question for black folks though. If
you know that this is a show where they're priming
people to really be their worst selves, do you want
to do it? Is that a good way to take
care of yourself?
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Right?
Speaker 3 (44:23):
We're talking about that first session where I would be
talking with my client, Well, we also know these are
the things that happen on there is that a space
that you feel safe and ultimately that's what that becomes
a discussion about. Is that a place where you feel
safe to be able to be who you want to
be in order to feel as though you're presenting your
best self.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Yeah, great questions to ask yourself if you're considering you
for sure. Yeah, So, doctor Seric, just based on your
research and the work that you're doing with clients, what
do you have to say about the state of dating
for black women right now?
Speaker 3 (44:58):
Well, now we're in this phase where everyone is understanding
that dating is terrible and online dating is the worst.
Black women have always known this. We always see this
in our world where like the worst things happen to
black folks first, because that's the way white supremacy works, right,
That's the way living in a society that dehumanizes and
(45:20):
d means Black people and is like constantly that's the goal.
So any negative things that are happening were typically the
community that's going to feel it worse. So Black women
have been trying to tell us for the last ten
to twenty ten to fifteen years online dating is actually terrible,
And so I think that black women are still saying that,
(45:41):
but I think people are listening now because white women
are coming out and saying that it's really terrible. Bumbo
has all these horrible ads where they're trying to get
women to go back on and to do whatever. So
what I can say, the state of dating still remains
challenging for but it still remains uniquely.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Challenging for Black women.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
And if it's something that Black women want to go into,
it's something that I think that they should do with
their social supports intact. Right, who are you going to
talk to when things are getting really hard, when you
feel like you're facing exclusion because you're a black woman.
Who you're going to talk to if you're going online
or in person and you're feeling as though black men
(46:26):
aren't interested in you, and it feels like you're not
able to meet up or find the men who meet
your romantic partner preferences. Right, Who's going to hold you
down in those moments? So what I have to say is,
because the state of dating in general is terrible, and
then online basically reproduces gendered and racial inequality, it's really
(46:48):
important for black women to make sure that their supports
are intact, people who will accept you as you are,
people who will tell you the truth about your situation,
that all of those things are as you venture out,
or as you're continuing, or as you may be returning,
because black women also take a step back because it's
hard to literally be doing this for even six months
(47:10):
strict so making sure that the things that make you
feel fully human, those are all intact as you're going
into this, and to remember, honestly, it's not you like
you know, there are decisions, agentic decisions that you can
be making all of that, but you literally are existing
(47:31):
in a society that is determined, first of all to
strip women of their agency. We see this in multiple arenas,
and then for black women, not only to strip black
women of their agency, but also to tell them that
they're not worth anything. So like, literally, that's the society
that you live in. You have nothing to do with that.
(47:54):
You happen to be born in black skin, that's not
your problem whatsoever. You're going to feel the consequences of that.
So you have to take care of yourself as you're
stepping out because the dating is not great. Now we
have young men who really are enraged at the progress
that women are making. They're really enraged at the fact
that women are really taking their agency seriously. So take
(48:17):
your agency seriously and do what you need to do
to protect yourself, to protect your well being, to protect
your mental health as you search for romantic partners, because
even though it's not your fault, you're living in a
society that is determined to bring you down. That's literally
the point of white supremacy. Unfortunately, we as black women
(48:41):
have to do extra work to make sure that though
consequences of living in that society, we're not feeling it
in our bodies, we're not feeling it in our minds
or even if we're feeling it to be able to
mitigate those stressors and bring down the distress and address
the distress as we're experiencing all that.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
Thank you so much for that, doctor Sarah. So, where
can we stay connected with you and all the work
that you're doing. Do you have a website and social
media handles you'd like to share?
Speaker 3 (49:08):
Yeah, so I have a website. You just type in
my name, doctor Sarah Audienca's cold and it should come up.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
It's a square.
Speaker 3 (49:15):
Space website and I'm on X as much as a
successfool as it is. I'm on there, but you can
also if you just Google me, you can contact me
through my website. And I'm a professor at LMU. So
if you go to LMU and you can email me
from there, and you can also DM me on X,
I still call it Twitter, but on X you can
(49:36):
also dm me there.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
Same still call it Twitter as well. We will be
sure to include all of that in the show notes.
Thank you so much for spending some time with us today,
doctor Sarah. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
No problem. Doctor Joy was wonderful to chat with you.
Speaker 1 (49:52):
I'm so glad Doctor Sarah was able to join me
for this conversation. To learn more about her and her work,
be sure to visit the show notes at the Therapy
for Blackgirls dot Com SASH Session three sixty three, and
don't forget to text two of your girls right now
and tell them to check out the episode. If you're
looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist
directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot Com SASH directory. And
(50:15):
if you want to continue digging into this topic or
just be in community with other sisters, come on over
and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy
corner of the Internet designed just for black women. You
can join us at Community dot Therapy for blackgirls dot com.
This episode was produced by Elise Ellis and Zaria Taylor.
Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much
(50:37):
for joining me again this week. I look forward to
continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
What's
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for Session three sixty three of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Hi.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
I'm doctor Sarah Audiyenka Scold and I'm on the Therapy
for Black Girls Podcast. I'm in session today unpacking the
depiction of black women on dating shows.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
It's easy to dismiss dating reality TV shows like Love
Island and The Bachelor as trashy, guilty pleasure TV. But
as we watch, black women, contestants continuously get discarded by
their male counterparts. Chosen last if chosen at all and
edited in a way that promotes stereotypes. It can make
the IRL pursuit of romance feel a little more bleak.
(01:49):
Digging into this idea a little bit more with me
today is doctor Sarah adayenk scold. Doctor Sarah earned her
sociology doctoral degree from the University of Pennsylvania. She studied
how the processes of finding romantic partners with racial and
gender inequality in the United States. She's also a licensed
clinical social worker in three states. During our conversation, we
(02:12):
chatted about viral dating show contestants like ad and Tiffany
from Love Is Blind, Page from Married at First Sight,
and how their stories in the world's reactions to them
reflect the real life woes that black women face while
trying to date in a society where we face both
gender and racial discrimination. If something resonates with you while
enjoying our conversation, please share it with us on social
(02:34):
media using the hashtag TBG in session or join us
over in the sister circle To talk more about the episode.
You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls
dot Com. Here's our conversation. Well, thank you so much
for joining me today. Doctor Adrienke scold.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Thank you so much for having me, doctor Joy, I
really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
So we are a huge faith of all things pop
culture and reality TV. A lot of our production teams
since a lot of time watching these things, especially as
it relates to Black women, and so I am curious
to hear a little bit more about your work. So
you are a sociologist who studies a lot around black
women and reality TV and dating shows. So can you
tell me, like, what trends have you noticed regarding black
(03:20):
women's for pseudo romantic relationships, particularly how they are shown
in the media.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Yeah, so, thankfully I don't have to rely on reality
TV shows. I've been really privileged to be able to
talk to black women about their experiences. I wrote my
dissertation on dating and the Digital Age, so I did
interview Asian, Black, Latina, and white women. But I've been
really more interested in black women's stories because they are
(03:48):
so unique. So what I find is not that different
from what we see. A lot of black women have
been writing about this idea of Black women sort of
feeling excluded in terms of romance, feeling as though they
are not desired by black and non black men, feeling excluded,
and we see that in person but also very much online.
(04:12):
And Black women also have a unique experience in that
we are the only group where we can't count on
men of our own racial background to choose us as partners.
So that's what I've been working on looking at, but
also thinking about black women is really resilient, which is
a double edged sword, because we don't want Black women
(04:34):
to think that they always need to be resilient. I
think a lot about how we're living in a society
that is structured by gender and racial hierarchies, and so
in order to survive it, we do have to call
on our resilience. So with's something that's inevitable, I feel
forced on us. But Black women are also making their
(04:56):
way in the world even as they are dealing with
these obstacles in terms of romance, and I think one
thing that's been nice about this work is feeling as
though I'm bearing witness to black women's experiences. So it's
sort of one thing to read about it on CNN
or to read about it in online blogs or whatever,
(05:17):
But to have a sociologist or an academic sort of
validate your experience, I think is also an important aspect
and something that I feel really privileged to do. So
the trends that I notice, I think are kind of
what a lot of people have seen, which is not
surprising when you have people that are sort of at
the bottom of the gender and the racial hierarchy, which
(05:38):
is that Black women oftentimes feel as though they are
excluded as romantic partners by black men. They are also
excluded by non black men. These men often rely on
what Patricia Hill Collins calls controlling images. So this idea
of black women's womanhood and sexuality is like hyper masculine
(05:59):
or sexually deviant or hyper sexual, and so they experience that,
but they also, on the flip side, experience phedgecization. So
the idea is that they're going to be offering some
sort of out of this world sexual experience to people
because they're Black women. The tropes that whites use to
demonize and demean Black women and really ultimately to justify
(06:24):
sexual assault and sexual violence against Black women, non black
men will often use these sort of tropes if they
include Black women. So it's kind of like we can
come together. I can choose you as a romantic partner.
But also because I see you in this particular lens.
And of course there's normal experiences, right as we saw
(06:44):
all Love is Blind with Tiffany and Brett, right, so they,
as far as we know, are still doing really well,
and like that was just really uplifting to see, So
that happens as well. But what I'm talking about is
these other experiences that are all so well known to
black women where either they're fetishized or they're excluded. So
(07:04):
I could go into a lot more detail, but that's
what I find in terms of Black women dealing with
these issues. But black women also know how to take
care of themselves. They exit out of dating apps or
out of the search for romantic partners if it's just
feeling like too much. Right, So, as a sociologist, I'd say,
if the burdens of living in a shatify society, if
(07:26):
they're feeling like I'm experiencing this too much, if they're
feeling like their mental health is really burdened, they find
ways to take care of themselves, either taking temporary or
permanent breaks, really tapping into their social networks, going to therapy.
These are all ways in which black women care for themselves.
Deciding that they're not going to date non black men
(07:48):
because they don't want to deal with the fetricalization or
the exclusion. So there are also strategies that they use
to kind of regain that agency that's been eroded as
they are searching for romantic partners.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
So, Doctor Sarah, you have said so much already. I mean,
there's just so much that's been off for them. But
one of the early comments you made was around how
even in your research you found that black women can't
count on black men to kind of be interested in
them romantically in the ways that other communities might.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Can you say.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
More about that? And I'm guessing it's connected to some
of these stereotypes that you've already talked about, but can
you say more about why that's happening.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Yeah, So, just based on some really interesting quotes that
I got from my respondents, one woman said that one
he was a Dominican black guy and he said to her, well,
I don't date black women because they are intimidating or
they emaculate you, and with white women it's just easy.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
He was like, it might be boring.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
It might be easy, Like basically you might not like it,
but at least it's not going to be difficult whatever
that means, right, or women who have experiences where men
will say things like, oh, well, I've never basically the
F word bang the black woman before, so you'll have
that in terms of pratialization. So yeah, So basically what
(09:14):
we're seeing when we see that happening is that black
men have adopted these controlling images, right, they have internalized
them as well in some ways that's the point of them, right.
So the ideas that we have, the society that's deeped
in white supremacy, is founded on white supremacy and the
idea of controlling images, the idea of making black women
(09:37):
as other They are basically doing what we're all primed
to do. And so basically it's this idea that black
women are at the bottom of this racial, engendered hierarchy,
and black men are saying, yeah, we too have adopted
these beliefs, these ideologies, these ways in which others think
about black women, and we're going to also utilize those
(09:59):
justification as a way to reject you as romantic partners.
So you know, when people say like, oh, black women
are too loud, or black women need to tone themselves down,
these are the same kinds of justifications that you will
often find. Or my respondents said they were finding if
black men talk to them, told them why they were
(10:20):
turning them down. It's sad, But the idea here is
that we are subject to the way in which our
society is set up racially.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
We are subjects. It bears down on all of us.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
So in some ways I think about it as like
we could blame black men, or we could blame white
supremacy and say a lot of people are functioning in
white supremacy.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
They might not realize it.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
They might think they have an original opinion, but it's like, no,
it's not an oliginal opinion. We see this in media
all the time. You're just regurgitating these ideas that are
literally steeped in our society, and you're using them as
a way to reject Black women. All kinds of women
are angry, all kinds of women are intimidating, all kinds
(11:03):
of women are successful. Black women don't have a monopoly
on any of those things. But when you are in
a society that says, not only do they have a
monopoly on these things, but these things make them deviant, different,
less valuable than other women, Right, it's reinforced time and
time again, in some ways it's hard to escape.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
So, I mean, so you've already touched on the idea
that like media of course, is one avenue where some
of these stereotypes are continue to be perpetuated. Can you
talk a little bit about like the intersection of that
with reality shows and dating shows? Right, So, we know
that there is often a lot of conversation around like
how black women are portrayed on dating shows. Can you
(11:45):
talk a little bit about maybe things that you found
in your work or just your observations of how black
women are portrayed on dating shows.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
So, even though I don't study reality shows as my
academic subject, I watch them and I think that they're
important because so many people watch them. Right, So, like
Love Is Blind just had its sixth season, so that's
quite some time. So it's important to think about how
black women get portrayed in these shows because I would
(12:13):
say the way in which the editing happens is they're
often playing to stereotypes. Right, So I think with Oh
my goodness, Clay and Ad, for instance, the ways in
which Ad gets portrayed is not necessarily in the best light.
In that same season, there was another black woman who
(12:33):
I believe was successful in getting a partner, but we
never saw her. They didn't tell that story. So we
see her once, and then when we see her, she's
portrayed in like this weird way. We see ad multiple times,
and the way that she's edited is basically to portray
these stereotypes of black women. But also even if they
(12:54):
didn't have the edits, I think that we also saw
how cast members, non black cast members talked about her
right the ways in which they spoke about her body,
which really, I would say, like encapsulated this idea again
of black women as like other people's properties, their bodies
don't belong to them.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
The ways in which.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
People are speaking about their bodies is your body belongs
to us. We get to say what your womanhood is like,
we get to say what your sexuality is like. So
even if they hadn't edited that way, maybe they even
saved us from worse things. Who knows, you know, you
never know, But the thing is they still showed that.
And I think about the contrast to Tiffany and Bread,
(13:35):
where we didn't see.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Any of that as much.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
I just felt like Tiffany got to be like her
full self. We didn't see castmates, at least, they didn't
show us Casswades talking about her body or anything like that,
and so sometimes I wonder why is it? And these
seasons were essentially back to back, I believe, so it
made me wonder, well, why was the portrayal of Tiffany
(13:59):
so wholesome? And then what was the reaction to that
that made us revert back to our old ways of
portraying black women in these very stereotypical ways. And then
maybe Clay did get portrayed a particular kind of way,
but I also don't know if they hadn't edited, if
we wouldn't have seen that as well.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
It's also not like black men.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Were unscathed right in the ways in which they were portrayed.
But I do think that in eighties case, like even
if we took away the choices that she might have made,
just seeing the ways in which she was treated and
the ways in which people talked about her very much
characterizes this idea of again black women being seen as
(14:42):
an other and then people really thinking that, yeah, I
can talk about her as another, right, We're not seeing
them talking about white women or latinas or anybody else
in that fashion. So I think that that's very pervasive
and it seeps into our television, and I honestly think
that people think that they can talk about black women
like this because they might watch other reality TV shows,
(15:05):
the Housewives of Atlanta or Housewives of I think Potomac,
Potomac exactly. So I feel like it's a really hard
space to be in because, in the one hand, black
women should get to be in spaces where they are themselves.
I was actually listening to your podcast with Differny Cross
(15:25):
just before we got on, and she's talking about these
spaces where like black women can breathe. They should, Black
women should be able to do their reality TV shows
the way that they want. There's Housewives of New York,
Housewives of New Jersey, Housewives of Orange County. I don't
get the sense that those housewives are confined to a
particular way of looking at white women. There's this complete
(15:48):
humanity that they get, whereas I get the sense it's
like we have to portray black women in this particular
way unless people aren't going to believe that it's actually real.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
We really buy on.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Stereotypes of black women all the time to get people
to view things. Why, right, why do we think that
if we didn't just let black women be one hundred
percent who they are, that people will be about that.
When I did the interview for Vox about Love is Blind,
the interviewer had talked about how some people were like, oh,
Brett and Tiffany were so boring? Why why would you
(16:23):
say that? We don't say that for any other of
the white couples. We don't say we everyone wants to know, Oh,
what's the latest thing?
Speaker 2 (16:30):
What are they doing? But blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
And then we see something similar with I think it
was Cameron and Lauren. They're the first, the first, the first,
and so again it's like everyone is curious.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
I feel like they're like these museum pieces.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Either it's boring or it's interesting because it's just so
different from what we normally see, and it's like, well,
why can't Brett and Tiffany just be humans? No one
is criticizing the white couples as boring. No one is
complaining right that, like they're living their best lives. So
(17:03):
it's hard because I want black women to be able
to be on reality shows but not feel as though
they're constantly pigeonholed into these controlling images and for the
media to feel like, well, we have to portray black
people as somewhat dysfunctional or it's going to be deemed
as pouring, or people aren't going.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
To want to tune into our shows.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Again, this is evidence that we're living in a society
structured by white supremacy.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Why is it that we always.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Run to images that demean and dehumanize black women as
the place where we're going to make money, as the
place where we're going to get our viewership. Why is
that always the default? Those are the questions that I have.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Yeah, and doctor Srry, it feels hard to think about,
like the colorism angle there with Ad and especially as
opposed to Tiffany right in the back to back seasons.
Like Tiffany, it does feel like it's a very different
edit verse this Ad. Maybe it's not even so much editing,
but like the story that we saw and what they
showed us. Of course, like Ad is a darker skin sister,
and so we know all the stereotypes about darker skinned women,
(18:11):
and you know what that means in adding to this,
like hyper sexual like fetishization like you mentioned of her
versus somebody like a Tiffany, right, right, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
I think that's an added layer as well. Right, So
it's interesting to think about both of them as black women.
People are telling us, oh, Tiffany is boring, and people
are telling us AD is making bad decisions or like,
we're seeing these stereotypes. But like they're both caught in
this bind, right, They're both subject to these ways, and
(18:45):
there's both subject to no grace, right, just complete judgment.
But the severity does in fact vary because of colorism, right,
The ways in which people might experience these controlling images
or how people view them because of it or because
of white supremacy is very much mediated by skin color
(19:06):
and pigmentation and phenotype. And yeah, as expected, the darker
woman is getting it a lot worse than a woman
who might be more light skinned.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
So dot to Sarah, I'm curious to hear your thoughts
on this. So I have often struggled with whether it
feels psychologically safe for black women to even participate in
dating shows and reality shows like this because I think
about AD. But I think the most glaring example for
me was Page from Married at First Sight. Paige was
(19:37):
also matched with a black man, and it just felt
like she was constantly tortured in my mind, like he
didn't want to be with her, so he said yes
to the marriage, but then would like be gone for
days at a time or constantly putting her down, and
it just felt like this is not good. This feels
very psychologically torturous, even to me as the viewer, so
(19:58):
I can only imagine what it it is like for
her living the experience, and so it just makes me question, like, yes,
I also want black women to be able to have
the fullness of opportunity to kind of do the things
that anybody else does. But I do think these situations
sometimes just it feels like us getting so much more
of the shorter side of the stick and just not
(20:19):
even a fun thing, right, Like, even if you don't
go on these shows your life partner, like it could
just still be a fun experience or career opportunities often
come from these kinds of things, but it often feels
like that kind of thing does not outweigh the negative
side effects so to speak, of participating in some of
these kinds of shows.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Yeah, it is definitely a complicated thing because I think
about how so much of Black women's agency is constrained
by living in a society that's underguarded under the foundation
is white supremacy, right, and so a lot of the
decisions that we make or can make our so our
(21:01):
agency is constrained. We don't have as many options. And
when we do make decisions right, the ways in which
we're judged, they're so vast right, we can't catch a break, right.
So there are ways in which women are judged in general,
and then you get this intersectionality of our race and
depending on if you're educated, if you have a college
degree versus not, they're just these ways in which you
(21:22):
can't do anything without feeling the brunt of it. And
so I am caught too when I think about this,
because again, I want black women to be able to
do whatever they want, right. If they want to go
on a show where they're just having fun, even if
they don't want to find their mate, or they do
(21:43):
want to find a romantic partner, I want to them
to be able to go on a show and do
that right. Lots of people do that in this world,
and they make money, and there are so much more
that can come from going on these shows. I want
that for them, But at the same time, I do
feel like it's hard because how does it bear on
their mental health and their mental wellbeing? For the individuals
(22:08):
that go on the show. That's the first sort of layer.
And then the second layer is for black women who
are watching these shows, how does that impact them? How
do we feel when we see ourselves in us society?
It is ourselves?
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Right?
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Like, this is why representation where we're talking about, this
is why it matters. So as much as we want
to distance ourselves and see ourselves as individuals from the
folks that are on TV, at the same time, we
do still see ourselves. So like, what does it mean
to be a black woman watching other black women undergo this.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Kind of treatment? Right?
Speaker 3 (22:46):
What does it mean for our mental health in that way?
And then to think about the collective right as black
women in general, as we are moving through the world,
moving through to a society that continues to reinforce these
controlling images, these gendered racial stereotypes, what does that mean
(23:08):
for us? It's naive to think that we just get
to move through the world as individuals and ignoring that
people watch these shows and really expect a particular kind
of behavior out of us and treat us because they
might not actually have Black women in their lives, or
they might have their quote unquote black friends, but they're
(23:30):
not actually talking to them or having these conversations.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
So there are these three layers.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
And yet I come back to why do black women
have to worry about that white women aren't going on shows?
Wondering how it's going to collectively impact white women, right
like latinas aren't going on shows, Asian women they're not
going on shows, and thinking like, oh, how is this
going to impact other women that share my ethno racial background.
(23:58):
And I feel like black women are also carrying this
burden of like how will it impact young black women?
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Right?
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Like, we just have all this extra emotional labor, all
this extra emotional burdens, all this work that we have
to do just to exist and to thrive in the US.
So for me, just like you, I struggle between let
them have their agency, they can make whatever decisions they want,
(24:26):
and also but how does this reflect on us?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
And honestly, I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Keep doing what you're doing because everybody else is getting
to live their best life. Just make sure that you
have the resources that you need to take care of
yourself after the fact. So hopefully page Ad Tiffany have
the supports that they need in order to shore themselves
(24:54):
up before they go on the shows, while they're on
the shows, and after they go from the show. I
want to be on the side of let black women live.
We are as fully human as everybody else, and they
shouldn't have to worry about alleviating a system that they
(25:14):
had nothing to do with creating. It's simply not their
faults and it's not their responsibility. If there's a person
on Love is Blind that seeds what's happening a white person,
you call it out. You see how people are talking
about Ad, you call that out. If you see how
people are talking about Brett and Tiffany, you call that out.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
It's not black women's.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Role to alleviate a system that didn't set up. So
that's kind of where I end up landing on it,
because I'm not gonna be for anything that continues to
constrain the decisions that black women make.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
They get to make bad decisions. That's it.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
That's where I stand, and as black people, we need
to be okay with giving black women the grace that
we give unfettered to any other group of people. It
doesn't mean that we don't get to criticize people's decisions.
It doesn't mean that we shouldn't call out bad behavior.
(26:16):
It doesn't mean that we let people walk free if
there are ways in which they're doing things that are
harmful to themselves. But let us be as gracious as
we unconsciously are for anybody else that's not a black person,
and that is especially not a black woman. In the end,
that's where I'm going to fall because I'm not going
(26:39):
to join a society that says we get to control
you and your body.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
I just refuse.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
Yes, the consequences may not be good for me, maybe
they're not going to be good for my daughter, but
I'm going to raise my daughter to be like, this
is the world that you live in, But I also
want you to be able to move in ways that
give you as much agency as possible. It's complicated, it's
a hard way to live. But I'm not gonna stand
(27:07):
in the way of black women doing the things that
they need to do to live what they feel is
a fulfilling and meaningful life.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
I'm just not gonna do it.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
More from our conversation after the break Why do friendship
breakups sometimes hurt more than romantic ones? How do I
make friends in a new city. Is it true that
women can't actually be good friends to one another. I'm
exploring all of these questions and so much more in
(27:37):
my book, Sisterhood Heels, now available in paperback at your
local independent bookstore or at sisterhood Heels dot com. Grab
a copy for you and your girls, and let's talk
about it. So, doctor Sarah, you have I think this
(27:59):
interesting staying background, and that you are a sociologist but
also a licensed clinical social worker. We know that on
some of the shows like a Love Island and even
some of the other ones that we've already talked about,
we will often see the black women picked the last,
if they are picked at all. And so I'm curious
to hear you know some more maybe from the clinical side,
in terms of like the impact that this kind of
(28:19):
thing can have on your self esteem, both as a
contestant but also as a viewer.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
So, even though what I've said in terms of let
black women live, the consequences are very real, right, So
for black women, I feel like only maybe in the
last five to ten years, we've really been taking seriously
black women's mental health, thinking about the rates of depression
in our communities, thinking about the burdens of being the
(28:46):
strong black woman, thinking about the ways in which living
in a society undergirded by white supremacy impacts how we
think about ourselves, and the true negativity that we experience
as a result of that. So I think that it
is and it would be really hard to watch these
shows and not to walk away thinking that there is
(29:09):
something actually wrong with Black women the way in which
we are portrayed and in the ways in which we
are chosen last, and not the thing as a black woman,
that there is something wrong with you, right, So I
think that there is real damage that is done there,
and it's a unique kind of damage because there are
shows that we can watch. You can watch Housewives of
(29:31):
Orange County and see the ways in which women in
general are portrayed. There's no house Husbands of Orange County
or house Husbands of Potomac or anything like that. So
we're definitely as a society benefiting from the ways in
which we portray women in a particular kind of way.
And then when we add to that black women, that's
(29:52):
definitely compounded. So I think, yes, there are real emotional
sacrifices that women are making when they join the show
and also when we watch the show. So I think,
as black women again, thinking about our own agency. I
want black women to be making informed decisions as much
as they can. So not just making any decision right,
(30:14):
not just saying well, I have my agency, I'm so
I'm going to do whatever I want to do.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Well, how can.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
You make a decision that mitigates the harm to you?
How do you make decisions that mitigate the mental burden
to you? How do we make decisions that increase our
self esteem and not decrease it. If I had a
client come to me and say, hey, I'm thinking about
(30:41):
going on Love is Blind? What do you think about it?
So that's a place where I would say, tell me
a little bit more about what you hope to gain
from going on Love is Blind. Tell me what it
is that you want, what are the goals that you
want to accomplish, And then let's think about what are
then what do you think could be some of the
(31:02):
things that could be some disadvantages from you going on
the show?
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Right?
Speaker 3 (31:07):
What are things are make you worried about? Going on
the show as a sociologist. I'm bringing stats, I'm bringing evidence,
I'm bringing data into this conversation. Okay, so this is
what we know happens on the show, This is what
we know goes on with black women when they're on there.
This might be what we know about the women afterwards.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Right. So I'm also there helping to.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Guide that decision process, and so I want them to
be able to make that decision based on the work
that we're doing in the sessions together, but also based
on sort of this sociological data and evidence that I'm presenting.
Same thing is if a contestant came and said, oh
my gosh, doctor Sarah, that show was terrible for me. Okay,
(31:51):
why was it terrible? What were you expecting to happen?
And what happened? Are there things in your background that
you feel have made it feel worse? How does it
feel to be a black woman? How can we work
together to think about like how that made the experience
even worse for you. I'm not going to judge her
and say, well, you definitely just shouldn't have gone on
(32:11):
the show.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
That was a bad idea.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
I'm going to sit with her in that place and say, Okay,
these are the stressors, this is the distress. How do
we bring that down? And ultimately, in both scenarios, how
do we create a situation where you're continuing to feel
fully human and what does that full humanity look like
for you?
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Right?
Speaker 3 (32:34):
So, that's the work that I'm going to be doing
in either of those sessions, regardless of if the woman
the first scenario decides she's going to go on, she's
going to go on fully armed and have some she
might have some better idea right of what's going to
happen on the show, and hopefully we've come up with
some resources to deal with those issues in the same
(32:57):
vein the woman in the second scenario, Hopefully she's going
to walk away from those sessions being like, we've reduced
the harm to me, I have the resources that make
me feel fully human. And yeah, she might regret, but
hopefully what she's also going to work away with is
she's enough and that she got to make that decision,
(33:17):
and now what is she going to do after the
fact to make sure that she continues to feel fully
human and continues to make decisions that promote her mental
and physical wellbeing.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Doctor Sarah what kinds of shows are you watching recently?
Is there anything that you've watched lately in the dating
reality world that has peaked your research brain.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
That's a good question.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
So I've actually just been watching a lot of Selling
Sunset to be quite honest, you know, But something that
I'm always curious about is global blackness, right, So, like,
how do black women on Love Is Blind Brazil or
The Ultimatum South Africa. I'm like ready to watch Ultimateum
(34:02):
South Africa because i want to see what is going
on there. So I think that's where I'm headed in
terms of reality TV shows. So it's funny that you
ask that, because in terms of guarding my own mental health,
I actually am very careful about when I watch something.
So if I'm in the middle of writing a lot
(34:22):
about black women, I end up staying away from the
reality TV shows because it's just a lot, And so
like I end up watching things like Selling Sunset or
things that where black women aren't necessarily censored because I'm
already writing about them and I'm thinking about them and
I'm living the life as a black woman. And then
(34:43):
when I'm like I'm done with this writing piece, I'm
done with this research piece. Then I can go back
into the shows where I know I'm going to be
hyper focused on what's going on with the black people
in the shows. So that's how I navigate and make
sure that I'm keeping my self whole and I'm keeping
myself safe and I'm mitigating harm to myself even as
(35:06):
I'm a viewer but also someone who's doing a lot
of this work and again living life as a black woman.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Are you familiar with some of the shows that are
on the own network, So, like Ready to Love, there's
a newer one called The Never Have Met. That one's newer,
so you probably have not, but Ready to Love has
had a couple of seasons.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
I think I have heard of Ready to Love.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
So it's hosted by nephew Tommy, who I think has
a background in like being a radio personality. They pick
a specific city to go to each season, and like
it is singles that they have in like at one
point it was a hotel that they were all in,
but usually it is that they are all living in
the same city and they have meetup spaces where the
(35:48):
guys are on one side, the women are on one side,
and they jointly talk about who they're going to keep
from the other side, to continue to get to know
and in the end they pair up, are kind of
way through the options, so to speak, and like they
will say they're ready to love and like continue this
relationship with one other person. And so in my mind
it does feel like now it's still you know, reality TV,
(36:10):
so we know that there's editing going on, but it
does feel like there is a different and these are
like largely black casts. I think they have been all
black casts up until this point, and so it does
feel like there is a different slant to those kinds
of experiences, Like they don't feel as difficult for me
to watch, Like it feels like a more fun watch,
even when there is a little bit of messiness and
(36:30):
you know whatever, Like that feels human, right, And so
it feels like just the editing and the way that
stories are told when I am assuming that the casting
is like more black people on the team, like the
editing team is likely at least more people of color,
and so it definitely feels like they are telling different
stories about black women and black men dating than you
would see on like a Bachelor or a Love is
(36:53):
Blind kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
Right, that brings up questions too, right, because the thing
is when you bring together black people, you're also going
to have the heterogeneity that exists in blackness.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Right, So it makes me wonder again to your.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Point, it's on Own, right, a network that we know
is promoting black people things and black people culture. And
I'm just like, I'm like, oh, I've never heard of
it because it's not on Netflix and it's not on Hulu.
Why it's not on Bravo? Right, I'm gonna have to
like go through and like look and see where I
can get Owned specifically, Right, is it on a streaming service?
(37:33):
I'm gonna have to work hard to get that. It
makes me upset. I should be able to go onto
Netflix or Own should be available in very much the
way that Netflix is available.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
So in some ways, we're having.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
A larger conversation, Right, it's not just about how people
are being portrayed, but what we actually have easy access
to because I pay my little six dollars a month
for Netflix, right, But now I have to go and
search to see, well, how can I get Own as well?
It's like it literally is constraining my agency. Now I
(38:08):
have to go do all this work just to get
access to that. And so again it's this bigger question
of we're living in this society that seems hell bent
on showing us a particular kind of way. Literally, this
is the first time I'm hearing about the show from you.
And I have lots of black women friends who will
text me, have you seen this show? Have you seen
(38:29):
nat show? But nobody has texted me to tell me
about have you seen it? Like ready to love? Maybe
because they don't know about it either. Right, So, on
the one hand, that's what happens when you censor black
people in general, right, And so what you're bringing is
a diversity of experiences. We can talk about the editing team,
(38:50):
we can talk about what is going into telling those stories,
but even to begin just bringing black human beings together,
you're gonna get a diversity of stories. It's gonna be
hard for you to just pigeonhole all the black women
into controlling images and pigeonhole all the black men into
some sort of caricature that we have of black men
(39:12):
in general. And so I think that's even just the
starting point. And then we talk about all of the
folks that are going in to making sure those stories
are well rounded and people's humanity are coming forward. I
can't be sure that the solution for Love is Blind
is like hire more people of color. That's not necessarily
how white supremacy works. White supremacy gets internalized by all
(39:36):
kinds of people, even black people. So even if you
just throw black people at the show in terms of
the editing or the choices, that doesn't necessarily mean that
you're going to come out with the show that humanizes.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Black people, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
And so it's like we need to also have a
conversation about why there's a own network where we have
to go there to see black people who are also
fully human. Why do I have to go to a
completely different network to go watch shows that show black
people in their full humanity.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
That's a travesty.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
No one's writing about that, right, No one's writing about
the ready to Love. So we're not writing about this,
like we're still stuck in the controversy of Love is Blind.
I want to see articles about ready to Love. I
want to see think pieces. You know, in some ways,
when we saw this with Insecure, right, there was just
this well roundedness. We were actually having important conversations about
(40:36):
black humanity because Isaiah was like, I'm gonna show us
in all of our messy glory. Right, it shouldn't have
to be a fictional show to get that. We should
also get that from just the way Black people live
their heterogeneous lives and have experienced their heterogeneous humanity. So
now I'm gonna go look for it because I want that,
(40:58):
you know, I want to see that exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
More from our conversation after the break. So you know.
The other thing, Doctor Sarah, that has been interesting as
there have been more shows and more contestants talking about
their experiences. One of the things we know that often
happens in these shows on like a Love Is Blind
(41:25):
and The Bachelor, like there also tends to be a
lot of alcohol available. We also know that sleep, it
seems like from some of the contestants, is difficult, like
they keep them up late and shooting all hours of
the day and night. Can you talk about some of
the things you think need to be present just in
terms of the wellness of all contestants for experiences like this.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
So they should have the option of not having to
drink if they don't want to, right, and thinking about
for starters, people have often suggested having actual clinicians on
the show. I think that could go a really long way,
and not just anyal clinicians, Like we could have a
variety of clinicians. If you're going to have people on
(42:07):
the show, make sure you have black qualified clinicians on
the show. And if it's reality TV, do we not
want reality? Do we not want people that are well rested?
Do we not want people who are getting three meals
a day, who's drinking alcohol all day and staying up
all night. I mean people do that in college. They
don't do that. So we could talk about what could
(42:30):
be there for wellness. But if that isn't there, what
is it that you're trying to show us?
Speaker 2 (42:37):
Then?
Speaker 3 (42:37):
What are your intentions when you are artificially creating situations
that are terrible for people's mental well being? What are
your actual intention What is it that you want us
to be coming away with when you're creating situations that
are actually bad for people's mental health. So, again, if
black people are going to go on these shows, I
(42:59):
would stay. Demand that you're able to get the amount
of sleep that you need to be able to function properly,
Demand that you can see a professional If you're having
any mental health issues that you need to talk with.
I would demand that you get to eat healthy food,
(43:21):
right if you're vegan or vegetarian, that you have those options,
that you get to take walks. I know that they
often make them leave their cell phones and things, but like,
what is it that you need? Do you need time
to read? Do you need time to take walks? Do
you need time to exercise? I almost feel like, if
you're going to go on the show as a black person,
(43:43):
think about what you need to thrive in your life,
and then what are like the many ways? What are
the basic things that you need to have to be
able to go on the show and do it in
a way that's meaningful to you. Right, So there's the
basics like sleep, not drinking all the time, being able
(44:04):
to exercise, But what else do you need to be
able to feel like you're presenting your best self? And
again this is a question for black folks though. If
you know that this is a show where they're priming
people to really be their worst selves, do you want
to do it? Is that a good way to take
care of yourself?
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Right?
Speaker 3 (44:23):
We're talking about that first session where I would be
talking with my client, Well, we also know these are
the things that happen on there is that a space
that you feel safe and ultimately that's what that becomes
a discussion about. Is that a place where you feel
safe to be able to be who you want to
be in order to feel as though you're presenting your
best self.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Yeah, great questions to ask yourself if you're considering you
for sure. Yeah, So, doctor Seric, just based on your
research and the work that you're doing with clients, what
do you have to say about the state of dating
for black women right now?
Speaker 3 (44:58):
Well, now we're in this phase where everyone is understanding
that dating is terrible and online dating is the worst.
Black women have always known this. We always see this
in our world where like the worst things happen to
black folks first, because that's the way white supremacy works, right,
That's the way living in a society that dehumanizes and
(45:20):
d means Black people and is like constantly that's the goal.
So any negative things that are happening were typically the
community that's going to feel it worse. So Black women
have been trying to tell us for the last ten
to twenty ten to fifteen years online dating is actually terrible,
And so I think that black women are still saying that,
(45:41):
but I think people are listening now because white women
are coming out and saying that it's really terrible. Bumbo
has all these horrible ads where they're trying to get
women to go back on and to do whatever. So
what I can say, the state of dating still remains
challenging for but it still remains uniquely.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Challenging for Black women.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
And if it's something that Black women want to go into,
it's something that I think that they should do with
their social supports intact. Right, who are you going to
talk to when things are getting really hard, when you
feel like you're facing exclusion because you're a black woman.
Who you're going to talk to if you're going online
or in person and you're feeling as though black men
(46:26):
aren't interested in you, and it feels like you're not
able to meet up or find the men who meet
your romantic partner preferences. Right, Who's going to hold you
down in those moments? So what I have to say is,
because the state of dating in general is terrible, and
then online basically reproduces gendered and racial inequality, it's really
(46:48):
important for black women to make sure that their supports
are intact, people who will accept you as you are,
people who will tell you the truth about your situation,
that all of those things are as you venture out,
or as you're continuing, or as you may be returning,
because black women also take a step back because it's
hard to literally be doing this for even six months
(47:10):
strict so making sure that the things that make you
feel fully human, those are all intact as you're going
into this, and to remember, honestly, it's not you like
you know, there are decisions, agentic decisions that you can
be making all of that, but you literally are existing
(47:31):
in a society that is determined, first of all to
strip women of their agency. We see this in multiple arenas,
and then for black women, not only to strip black
women of their agency, but also to tell them that
they're not worth anything. So like, literally, that's the society
that you live in. You have nothing to do with that.
(47:54):
You happen to be born in black skin, that's not
your problem whatsoever. You're going to feel the consequences of that.
So you have to take care of yourself as you're
stepping out because the dating is not great. Now we
have young men who really are enraged at the progress
that women are making. They're really enraged at the fact
that women are really taking their agency seriously. So take
(48:17):
your agency seriously and do what you need to do
to protect yourself, to protect your well being, to protect
your mental health as you search for romantic partners, because
even though it's not your fault, you're living in a
society that is determined to bring you down. That's literally
the point of white supremacy. Unfortunately, we as black women
(48:41):
have to do extra work to make sure that though
consequences of living in that society, we're not feeling it
in our bodies, we're not feeling it in our minds
or even if we're feeling it to be able to
mitigate those stressors and bring down the distress and address
the distress as we're experiencing all that.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
Thank you so much for that, doctor Sarah. So, where
can we stay connected with you and all the work
that you're doing. Do you have a website and social
media handles you'd like to share?
Speaker 3 (49:08):
Yeah, so I have a website. You just type in
my name, doctor Sarah Audienca's cold and it should come up.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
It's a square.
Speaker 3 (49:15):
Space website and I'm on X as much as a
successfool as it is. I'm on there, but you can
also if you just Google me, you can contact me
through my website. And I'm a professor at LMU. So
if you go to LMU and you can email me
from there, and you can also DM me on X,
I still call it Twitter, but on X you can
(49:36):
also dm me there.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
Same still call it Twitter as well. We will be
sure to include all of that in the show notes.
Thank you so much for spending some time with us today,
doctor Sarah. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
No problem. Doctor Joy was wonderful to chat with you.
Speaker 1 (49:52):
I'm so glad Doctor Sarah was able to join me
for this conversation. To learn more about her and her work,
be sure to visit the show notes at the Therapy
for Blackgirls dot Com SASH Session three sixty three, and
don't forget to text two of your girls right now
and tell them to check out the episode. If you're
looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist
directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot Com SASH directory. And
(50:15):
if you want to continue digging into this topic or
just be in community with other sisters, come on over
and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy
corner of the Internet designed just for black women. You
can join us at Community dot Therapy for blackgirls dot com.
This episode was produced by Elise Ellis and Zaria Taylor.
Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much
(50:37):
for joining me again this week. I look forward to
continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
What's
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