July 3, 2024 • 51 mins
Some of you may know that July is one of my favorite months of the year, and that’s because it’s when we observe Minority Mental Health Awareness Month. This year, we’ve chosen the theme, Holding Space for Healers, putting the spotlight on the therapists and all those who’ve dedicated their careers to holding space for others. All month long, you can expect conversations centered around the experiences and perspectives of mental health professionals.
To kick the month off, we’re sharing a compilation of some of the greatest gems, tips, and insights from our 3-part “Becoming a Therapist” series. You’ll hear from my accomplished and brilliant colleagues — Josephine Ampaw Greene, Dr. Kimberly Applewhite, Dr. D’Andria Jackson, and Dr. Donna Oriowo – as they share their advice on navigating the licensure process, doing the internal work necessary before seeing clients, some of the practical and financial concerns involved with being a therapist, and what it looks like to take care of yourself outside of your work as a therapist.
About the Podcast
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
Resources & Announcements
Grab your copy of Sisterhood Heals.
Join us in Atlanta on July 18th &19th for our Inaugural Therapist Summit. This is an incredible opportunity to gather to learn more about things like scaling your practice through PR and getting a book deal as a mental health professional. There will also be lots of time to connect with colleagues. Learn more and register to join us HERE.
Where to Find Our Guests
Dr. Kimberly Applewhite
Dr. D’Andria Jackson
Dr. Donna Oriowo
Josephine Ampaw Greene
Stay Connected
Is there a topic you'd like covered on the podcast? Submit it at therapyforblackgirls.com/mailbox.
If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check out the directory at https://www.therapyforblackgirls.com/directory.
Take the info from the podcast to the next level by joining us in the Therapy for Black Girls Sister Circle community.therapyforblackgirls.com
Grab your copy of our guided affirmation and other TBG Merch at therapyforblackgirls.com/shop.
The hashtag for the podcast is #TBGinSession.
Make sure to follow us on social media:
Twitter: @therapy4bgirls
Instagram: @therapyforblackgirls
Facebook: @therapyforblackgirls
Our Production Team
Executive Producers: Dennison Bradford & Maya Cole Howard
Producer: Ellice Ellis
Production Assistant: Zariah Taylor
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three sixty six of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after a word from our sponsors. Why do friendship
breakups sometimes hurt more than romantic ones? How do I
make friends in a new city? Is it true that
women can't actually be good friends to one another? I'm
(01:20):
exploring all of these questions and so much more in
my book, Sisterhood Heels, now available in paperback at your
local independent bookstore our at sisterhood Heels dot com. Grab
a copy for you and your girls, and let's talk
about it some of you may know that July is
(01:43):
one of my favorite months of the year, and that's
because it's when Therapy for Black Girls observes Minority Mental
Health Awareness Month. This year, we've chosen the theme Holding
Space for Healers, putting the spotlight on the therapist and
all those who dedicated their careers to holding space for others.
All month long, you can expect conversations centered around the
(02:04):
experiences and perspectives of mental health professionals. To kick the
month off, you're sharing a compilation of some of the
greatest gyms, tips and insights from our three part Becoming
a Therapist series. You'll hear from my accomplished and brilliant
colleagues Josephine and Paul Green, doctor Kimberly Applewhite, doctor DeAndrea Jackson,
(02:26):
and doctor Donna Oriowoe as they share their advice on
navigating the licensure process, doing the internal work necessary before
seeing clients, some of the practical and financial concerns involved
with being a therapist, and what it looks like to
take care of yourself outside of your work as a therapist.
If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please
(02:47):
share with us on social media using the hashtag TVG
in Session, or join us in the Sister Circle to
talk more about the episode. You can join us at
community dot therapy for Black Girls dot com. Here's our conversation.
If there's the hardest part about becoming a therapist, then
(03:07):
the licensing process just might be top three, from the
number of steps to the different rules required in different states.
We know that it can be a grueling and discouraging experience.
Starting us off with some affirmations and advice or doctor Applewhite,
Doctor Orioo, Doctor Jackson, and Josephine, as they discussed their
(03:28):
experiences in becoming licensed therapists. Take a listen. So I
know that we all know the grueling process that is
often that of licensure.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
So this listen.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Josephine, your eyes rolling all the way back in your head.
It's just so many steps and so this is the
thing that it feels like had the most energy when
we talked about it on social just because I feel
like a lot of us did not know what we
were in for in terms of like you think you
go to school and it's like okay, well I'm good,
but no, they are all these like post degree licensure
supervision hours, and like y'all have already talked about, sometimes
(04:02):
we have to find people to pay to do those.
So let me just read you a couple of other comments.
So Crystal George RD wrote, transitioning from a trainee to
an associate is a mental hurdle. One minute, you're an amateur,
and then when you get a job and you're expected
to be the expert. It takes a lot of grounding
and self acceptance to know that you're still an amateur
that will always be growing and learning through the field.
(04:23):
There's a lot of imposter syndrome that comes to as
you deal with more difficult cases, but eventually, as you
become more competent, it passes. Sarah Phoebe wrote the required
three thousand hours are a pain off, and then State
of Mind Journal wrote, I wasn't prepared for all of
the stigma. I also wish someone would have told me
that most of the costs came out of your pocket
(04:45):
beyond just the degrees. Every licensee in North Carolina wants
me to pay their rate by the hour for my
supervised hours. They only allow a small group of students
and to graduate school where their supervised hours are a
part of their degree. I should have gotten a bachelor's
in social works so that I could still be making
an income while I'll wait, but lessons learned. So talk
to me a little bit about your licensure process, Josephine.
(05:08):
It sounds like you're still having a bit of a
licensure process as you work to become a supervisor. And
some of the things are words of wisdom that you
would offer to people who are kind of in this journey.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Now you are so right. Yes, my eyes definitely went
all the way in the back of my head what
you said licensure, because i finished my licensed clinical social
work hours three three hundred and sixty of them, and
that I'm doing the hours for the MFT, which is
another two thousand, and then I'm doing the hours for
(05:38):
the license Addictions Counselor, which is another two thousand. So
I have found that when it comes to licensure, it
is a journey that I think it makes me a
stronger therapist, like gives me real thick skin in terms
of being able to handle the oppressive systems that we
(05:58):
operate within. And the silver lining of it is it's
really open the opportunity for me to meet other professionals
that I don't think I would have otherwise been able
to work with. My experience in becoming a licensed clinical
social worker was unique in the fact that I was
(06:19):
working in many different places at the same time, so
I was trying to collect all of these hours, which
meant that I had the opportunity to learn from so
many different professionals. I implore folks working towards relicentshire to
not amount their worth as a therapist to the license.
(06:41):
There's a huge and at least in my experience, I
thought I was less of a therapist because I didn't
have the LCSW yet, But that's just simply not true.
You're getting these hours so that you're able to get
more experience. But there's a reason why you got into
graduate school. Let's start there. There's a reason why you
(07:02):
got whatever employment that you got, or if you're in
private practice, there's a reason why you're doing that. So
there's so much that you can offer and that you
can give while you're on your way there and when
you get there. I threw myself a whole party when
I got all of my hours, because it is a
huge accomplishment doing it once doing it twice, doing three
(07:26):
times for me, And it's so crucial to know the
steps and know exactly what the licensing agencies are looking
for and being aware of what changes happen, because in
Colorado the licensing requirements for social work have changed about
(07:47):
three times over since I started with trying to get
my license in twenty twenty and now working to be
a supervisor. Luckily there aren't a ton of requirements for that,
but those things keep changing. So I always imploor folks
to really keep your eyes open, subscribe to whatever newsletter
your licensing agency has so that whenever there's an update,
(08:09):
you're always up to date on it. So those are
a couple of things I fly thank.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
You for that, and I think it is important to
talk about. So as therapists, we are licensed in individual states.
So as of yet, though there is some movement to
talk about, like okay, can we have national licenses, like
is there really a need to have this, But as
of right now, we are licensed in each individual state.
So if you want to see clients in Georgia, where
I am, then you have to have a license from
(08:35):
the border social work, border psychology, border marriage, and family
therapy to be able to see clients. And if you
want to do that, then in North Carolina you have
to have a different license, right, And the states don't
all have the same requirements. So some states have like
this verbal thing that you have to go and do.
Most states have like a test that you have to take.
But there are lots of different requirements. So that's a
(08:55):
great point, Josephine, is to kind of make sure that
you know the requirements, especially if you're somebody who's going
to be like applying in different states at the same time.
You want to make sure you don't miss something because
one state requires fifteen hundred hours versus two thousand. So
I think that is important to kind of point out
what about you, Doctor Orio will talk to us a
little bit about your process.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
This is such a long time ago because.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
Right, so, like I walked across the stage with a
license because I took my test before I graduated, because
you're allowed to do it so many months ahead of graduation,
sophen ahead, and I was like, well, might as well
go ahead to take it to one.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
If I failed, then I got a little grace period.
I can do it again.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
But I will say this the number one strategic thinking
is my strength, and that was part of my strategy.
If I can walk across the stage with my license,
then that's one last thing for me to have to
worry about when I got my degree in hand, because
I will walk across the stage knowing that I'm licensed.
And when it came time to do the clinical licensure,
the way I was studying, I was just like, we
(09:56):
study a little bit at a time.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
We don't cram.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
I took my time, I read books, but I probably
did things in a way that some people don't. I
took a practice test first before I began studying. I'm like,
there's no point in me studying for things that I
already know, so let me let the test tell me
what I already know. Then I could study to my
weaknesses and not study to my strengths. I mean, I
was still gonna get those strengths anyway, but that was
(10:19):
part of my strategy.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
You're gonna have to do what you do for you.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
And same thing when I was doing ASEX certification, just
making sure that you understand exactly what the requirements are.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Just like Josephine said, like, don't be planed around.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
You're gonna find yourself in the world to hurt, not
knowing what it is that you're doing and for where
you're doing it, and knowing that certain licenses do not
just automatically transfer, because I think that a lot of
people thought that you could just apply and be given reciprocity.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
New York.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
Don't play those games. California. Don't play those games in California.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
You gotta take a law class. Stop playing. In New York.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
They require very specific classes as well that a lot
of states do not require. So you're gonna have to
get that first. And if you want to transfer that license,
it's ten years. You have to do ten years already
as a clinical social worker, because I'm a social worker
in order for that joont to even go over there.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
So I think that a lot of people.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Are not looking when they're doing this thing, and sometimes
we're in such a rush to get the thing that
we're not sitting down to look at. Okay, whether the requirements,
what do I need to do, What is the best
order for me to do this in as opposed to
let me just start and hope I don't have to
double back.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
I find that that is a.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Beautiful, delicious, tremendous waste of time and taking the time
to sit down and consider what you want where you
want it, and also bringing in the why, because I
don't think that all of us are fully entrenched in
our why. I know some therapists that I look at them,
I'm like, Wow, you better than me. They got ten
ten licenses in ten different states, and for the life
(11:59):
of me, I cannot figure out why, Like, what was
the purpose behind ten licenses in ten states? And if
you don't know your why, then maybe pause, figure out
the why, make sure it's an alignment with what it
is that you're saying that you want, and then move forward.
Because I'll say this, I did consider licensing in New
(12:20):
York and California and Georgia, and then I remember that
baby girl been full since twenty eighteen. I've been full
since twenty eighteen. I'm not hurting for clients. Why would
I get that license in these other states? When I
can't see nobody, I'm like, could I hire somebody else?
Speaker 3 (12:40):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (12:40):
Or just throwing this out there right, Or I can
focus on where I am because I love my sisters
here in the DMV and we still need stuff. I
can let people who are in New York handle New
York and I can handle the DMV. So just throwing
that out there as well, because I see everybody going
(13:02):
for all fifty states and I'm just like, better you
than me, because when it comes time to pay the
piper on those renos.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Not I.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
So we already know that becoming a therapist takes a
lot of work, from school to licensing to clinical hours. Well,
one type of work that is overlooked is self work,
interrogating your own internalized biases and traumas that could potentially
show up in your work with clients. Here's a snippet
from Becoming a Therapist, Part two. We respond to a
community member's story about learning about wounds they didn't even
(13:35):
know existed until working with clients, So something we didn't
get a chance to get to in Part one of
this conversation was of the personal development piece that is
required to become a therapist. So one of our community
members wrote on Instagram at Jump for Joe, she said,
I definitely didn't expect the healing it forced me to
(13:55):
do in places I thought were already healed. It has
made me a more attuned human so that I'm able
to properly show up, not just for my clients in
the therapeutic space, but also for myself and loved ones.
So I'd love to hear from both of you a
little bit about like your own personal development and like
what kinds of things have you learned about yourself or
had to attend to in your work as a practicing clinician.
Speaker 5 (14:18):
Well, I got a lot of feedback in internship. I
was a fixer when I first came in, and so
I just wanted to dive right in there and try
to give my clients the answers as opposed to accompanying
them on the journey of building insight and developing that
sense of self awareness and that mindfulness of what it
is that they're dealing with and helping them put those
(14:39):
puzzle pieces together. So on the outside I was like, Oh,
I see this, and let's do this, and we can
at this and we can do that. And that was
sometimes not helpful for my clients and internship because they
didn't learn from the process. So I had to learn
to hush myself in session. And I also had to
learn to monitor my nonverbals. I think that was really
(15:02):
another one for me, because my face will speak before
I have an opportunity to and with all my black
girl energy that I was trying not to bring to
the military space because it didn't seem like a warm,
welcoming environment. For that that used to be a challenge
for me. I also, upon embarking on treating trauma, had
to learn to work through my own stuff that I
(15:24):
thought was healed but was not. And especially in the
context of providing manual based therapy like cognitive processing therapy
or prolonged exposure, those kind of things can really have
an impact, especially once you start doing it regularly with
multiple clients. And so sitting with that and working through
your own stuff, getting your own counselor and continuing to
(15:46):
see your own counselor so important in the process of
becoming a therapist.
Speaker 6 (15:50):
Yeah, I agree with so much of that. And I
was thinking about to how when I was in graduate school,
do you think you made it right, especially like on
a doctoral level, you're like, man, like I've gotten an
American dream or whatever. And then when I came to
do and I can remember clearly a time where we
(16:13):
were talking about the idea of stereotype threat. I went
to NYU. They were doing a lot of that work
at NYU went at the leads On that was still
a professor in the Steinhart School, so I was familiar.
But then I learned that the other person, Claude Steele,
was a black man, and in my head I thought
(16:33):
that Clode Steele was a white woman, like I guess
I had the Danielle Steel books in mind or whatever.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
So that was the first thing.
Speaker 6 (16:41):
And then at the time that I was in graduate school,
Norm Anderson was the CEO of APA, and he is
also a black man who graduated from North Carolina Central University.
And you know, I mentioned I'm from the South, but
I'm from North Carolina specifically, and I went to boarding
school right down the street from NCCU and didn't really
(17:02):
seriously consider going there because of really all of this
internalized racist stuff, frankly, that I had growing up as
a black kid in the South. And so when I
realized that, and I noticed my surprise about that, Hey,
these are really successful people and they're you know, they're
(17:23):
black people and they grew up similar to me, I
was like, oh crap, Like what am I assuming about
myself and my own likelihood of being successful in graduate school?
If it's really this surprising to me that there's black
people out here doing this, and to think that not
everybody that gets a graduate school is going to have
those emotion skills to be able to pinpoint something like that.
(17:47):
And so yeah, as long as it's undeveloped, like, realizations
like that are really jarring and difficult. And then when
you get into kind of your passions or and when
I've gotten into my passions and things that you know,
I feel strongly about caring for black youth, tending to
racially stressful and traumatic events in the community, and then
(18:09):
you have people kind of devalue those things, people that
you think should know better because they're all in the
mental health fields. It continues to bring up things that,
like doctor Jackson was saying, really do require what you
be in your own work, like that you have a
space to process those things. One of the reasons that
I like being a DBT therapist so much is that
(18:33):
there is a little bit of room, well, there is
lots of room in the model to be more self
disclosing because in DBT, a lot of times people have
experienced invalidating environments and that's where they learned a lot
of the ways that they are coping with the world,
and so it's important to be genuine and appropriate ways.
(18:54):
And so then I really like being able to be
genuine and expecting that the type of relationships I build,
people will call out what seems like it's therapy interfering
and give me that chance to process it, but that
I don't have to put on certain types of language
or put on a front to be a certain thing
that I'm not. But yeah, you really do learn a
(19:16):
lot of treatment paradigms say, you know, practice the skills
on yourself, and it's all kinds of things like practicing
skills of self compassion, emotion regulation. I can't come into
work tired, not having eating and yet I have these realities, right,
I have two kids at home, I have all of
these things that I'm doing in the community, and so
really have to practice the skills to be able to
(19:38):
do what I'm doing on a daily basis and then
to be able to share that with clients. When we're
working with skills, it's like, man, you might want to
call BS on a lot of this because the implementation
is difficult and I'm doing it like we're doing it together.
So yeah, you really do learn so much more from.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Our conversation after the break, but first a quick snip
of what's to come next week on TBG. I'll say this,
I was so scared that I would be recognized. And
actually every semester I did get recognized by one person
in each class, but they wouldn't say anything until like
maybe the middle of the semester or at the very end.
(20:18):
One classmate wore the Reds T shirt like wore our
merch and I was like, Okay, you ain't have to
do that, you ain't have to do that. But the
people who did recognize me were very low key about it,
very cool. Even at graduation, a girl came up to
me and was like congrats, and I was like, I
just need you to not tell nobody. Just don't tell
(20:40):
nobody until the ceremony is over, because I really wanted
to do this program anonymously. This July Therapy for Black
Girls is bringing our yearly Minority Mental Health Month celebration
in person to Atlanta, Georgia when us Thursday July eighteenth
(21:01):
and Friday July nineteenth, as we shine a light on
mental health professionals and all those who dedicated their careers
to holding space for others. Our inaugural holding space for
Healers Therapists Summit will gather some of our favorite voices
in the field for workshops, seminars, and opportunities to connect.
You don't want to miss this, so secure your ticket
(21:22):
to wellness by visiting Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Healers.
We don't traditionally think of therapists as business owners, but
deciding to begin your own practice is indeed starting a business.
It isn't easy trying to navigate the world of social media,
(21:42):
marketing and financial planning. So I'm glad that my colleague
could join me to discuss some best practices and advice
around this topic. Here's a clip. So you both have
thriving private practices and so this, I know, is the
thing that nobody teaches us in grad school. The surprise,
I feel like more schools are adding in some of
(22:02):
these kind of business like or opening up a practice,
but for a very long time, there has been no
instruction on what to do after your actually licensed. Like
there's lots of preparation about how to seek clients, but
nobody teaches you how to actually run a practice. And
so some of the comments that we got online so real.
Nicole wrote the business side of having your own practice.
(22:24):
If you desire to have your own practice, learn about business,
engage with console groups, get connected with local counseling groups
and the state board, and then sharing Moseley at the
fit Talk road. You need to understand the business side,
not just therapy, which I think both of you would
agree with. So talk to me a little bit about
how you actually learned how to have a business and
(22:45):
what suggestions you would offer two sisters who are interested
in opening a practice.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
I found that it is not only important to learn
the knowledge for yourself, but also know who are the
experts of the things that you don't know. So, for example,
I have an incredible bookkeeper and an incredible attorney who
I turn to and I say, hey, I don't know
(23:11):
how this works, so help me figure out how it works.
I don't think that owning a business is about being
the expert of everything. I think owning a business is
about knowing who to ask for help in the things
that you are not an expert in. I focus on
the therapy, I focus on the consulting, I focus on
the curriculum, writing, and all those things that I was
(23:33):
trained in. But when I'm able to extend and ask
for that help. That also prevents burnout from me. I
think another piece of running a private practice is trial
and error. Knowing that there is a huge part of
knowing that things that you try in the beginning don't
(23:53):
necessarily have to be what you stick with in the
long haul. Like if you want to see twenty clients
a week and you change your mind, you say you
want to say fifteen clients a week, and the math
maths up, then do it if you realize, okay, I
have capacity to see more, Like no one in private
practice should feel like just because they started doing something
(24:17):
one way, they have to continue doing it that way.
Like the way that I run a private practice now
being an LCSW is not going to be the way
I run a private practice when I'm in a doctoral program,
which we'd love to talk to you all about mentorship boom.
It's a thing right in the moment, and the way
that I do it after I have a PhD is
going to be very different. So knowing that as we
(24:37):
grow and evolve as humans, our needs are naturally going
to change and that's okay. And knowing who the experts are.
There are tons of folks even on Instagram, on Facebook,
on TikTok, who know and share a lot of knowledge
of things that we can prevent if we look out
(24:59):
for the resources. And as business owners, it's important to
know that answers are not going to come to us.
We have to go and find them.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
I know you got a lot to say. They're doctor Will.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
Doctor Jetta Robinson. I joined at the time it was
called Private Practice Academy, and.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
I learned what I needed to learn right there. It
had a built in community feel.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
She was already an expert right with like seven or
eight figure private practice.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Who else finn to teach you?
Speaker 4 (25:31):
And the way that she teaches, she thinks about what
it takes for you to actually learn this information and
for you to do this in a way that is
going to be sustainable in.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
The long run.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
Because let's be real, some of these private practices out
here that sprung up in COVID are not private practices.
They are a therapists who just happened to practice privately.
Your business is not a business boo. It's not a
business boo. And looking like some people are running around here,
not ANLC to be seen. Just the name and the
(26:02):
money is depositive into their private account while they don't
have any insurance.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
And I'm just like, all this is gonna.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
Take is one client one to suit you and they
get to take everything out your bank account because you
don't have a business account. I'm saying those basic business things.
These are not things that grew up just knowing.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Nor is it just.
Speaker 4 (26:21):
Things that we just got out of our social work
or mental health counseling programs.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
They didn't teach us how to be business owners. They
taught us how to do therapy.
Speaker 4 (26:31):
And remembering that you still need someone that has expertise
that is different from yours means that you go find
the people who have business acumen. Don't just be asking
you know your friend who also don't have an LLC
and who is putting money in their bank account or
telling their clients to just cash at me. Look, I
(26:52):
done heard and sink some things right. So I found
that being a part of the Private Practice Academy really
helped me to number one, get my foundations right, so
that when I decided I was going from a solo
practice to a.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Group practice, it one no thing.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
And I definitely agreed with what Justpine said. I have
people who know what they are doing, so my accountant
knows what she is doing. They focus on private practices actually,
so I've been able to just be like, all right, cool,
this is what I want to do next. They're like, well,
if you want to hire this thing, you're gonna need
to figure out this thing first. I'm like, bebbee, you
(27:30):
ain't said nothing but what I'm gonna figure that out
and I'm gonna talk to an expert so that i
can do what I need to do. So, if you're
having a business, you're gonna reinvest into your business the
same way that you invested into the knowledge base that
you have to be a great therapist. Don't be shy
about that money coming out that account when it's time
to learn his business stuff. I'm not saying you have
(27:51):
to go get an MBA, but certainly you have to
be willing to put up more than fifty dollars a
month to get the thing that you needed from these
other people who have an expertise too. I had found
that people be wanting something for nothing. They don't want
to put time in, and they don't want to put
money in, but they still want to be able to
reap all the benefits and get where they want to go.
(28:13):
But I will say that I feel like I got
my money back from what I invested with doctor Jetta
and her crew simply because of the way that they
sort of outlined everything. That's what really worked for me. Now,
I had tried some other ones. I'm not going to
name them because you know, and try to hurt nobody's feelings.
But I did try some other ones, and for me,
(28:34):
those were I call that lesson learned money as and
I learned me some lessons. I learned that you're not
the one for me, that your approach does not work
with what I need, and I needed to do a
better job of vetting according to what I knew about
me and not just what I know about this program.
And I will say that this is lifelong learning. As
your business grows and changes, you have to be willing
(28:56):
to continue to invest in that way. So right now
I'm a part of two men or minds that are
focused on business. I'm also in one that is focused
on marketing. This is how I am learning so that
I can continue to pour into my practice in a
way that doesn't take things away from me. If you
want your business to be a business and.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Not a hobby and be gone by. I mean what
they say we in a recession.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
Recession proofing yourself also requires you to have some business acumen,
and that means that you're gonna have to put some
money up or you're gonna have to shut up.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
So I feel like it's a running refrain when I
talk with other therapists about this, like there's so much
we don't learn in grad school about like actually either
operating a practice or even being in private practice. I
know there's probably so many things, but what is one
thing that you feel like you did not learn in
grad school about either being in a private practice or
owning your private practice that you would love to share
(29:47):
with other people that you've been able to kind of
figure out on.
Speaker 5 (29:50):
Your own establishing a business plan. And I can't even
say that I figured that out on my own. I'm
blessed to be married to a man who has an
MBA Harvest did that knowledge from him, and he's also
in finance. But there's so much about stepping into the
space of running your own practice that you have to
be knowledgeable about business plan and marketing strategies and marketing
(30:12):
analyzes and slide analysis, so that you can recognize what
it is that you want to do, how it aligns
with your values, but also how it makes business sense. Right,
So I hear doctor Applewhite saying that it just didn't
make good businesses and the systems not working for all parties.
I absolutely agree with her on that. And so having
a solid business plan, understanding your business model, identifying how
(30:35):
you can work into your business plan, these alternative streams
of income so you're not grasping at straws. I think
it's so important, and it's not something that a lot
of academic programs are offering. So once clinicians get out
into the space of establishing their own practices, a lot
of times we're like clueless and don't even know where
to start. And then once we get a little bit
(30:56):
of taste of that information is very overwhelming in terms
of of all the things that need to be accomplished
and the boxes that need to be checked. So I
would say establishing a solid business plan is necessary to know.
Speaker 6 (31:08):
I hope that people coming through grad school now the
training is different, but I feel like the importance of
technology was under emphasized in school, and of course in
this pandemic and post pandemic world, it's become more important
than ever to be flexible to the needs of clients
and use technology. The older I get, and you know,
(31:30):
I'm thirty four, but I try to see teaen clients
and I don't know what's going on with them, because
like technology has just advanced. And you know, I tell
people I had kids in graduate school, so my knowledge
of pop culture is kind of limited and perhaps dead.
It's limited to like the time my first kid was born,
Like all of my music knowledge is mainly from before
(31:52):
twenty fourteen, Like.
Speaker 4 (31:54):
It's just dead.
Speaker 6 (31:54):
But then when you're working with clients, like there is
a need to stay relevant and stay connected to what
people are talking about. Like it's come up that TikTok
has advanced or I don't know if you call it advanced,
it certainly has put out there a lot of talk
about mental health. Some of it is accurate, some of
it is effective, some of it is not. You got
(32:16):
kids run around thinking they have DD and they're like,
what D ideas only in like I don't zer point
five percent of the population or something like what's the
prevalence of that? Or you know, people say, ADHD is
this ADHD is that, And I'm like, maybe you've got
some other things going on, like maybe you needed an evaluation.
But as long as we're kind of constrained to offices
(32:38):
and not regularly engaging with technology, then we won't be prepared.
Then the next pandemic or that kind of event will
come around, then you won't know what to do. Like
doctor Jackson was doing telehealth before telehealth was cool in essence,
before that, you know, all kinds of shape was like, oh, yeah,
telehealth didn't work as well, even though the evidence was
there that it did, or like, oh, you're gonna be
(33:01):
disconnected from this, that, and the other if you go
tell health. And then we all had to do it.
So some of us were able to like continue to
grow and develop that being connected to technology. And sometimes
I think we can pull ourselves into thinking we only
have to be connected to the work, but the work
is technology. We'll get left behind if we're not keeping up.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Mm hmmm. So one of the questions that we have
not been able to get to that I really want
to spend some time talking about is the idea of
marketing yourself as a private practice therapist or even if
you're not in private practice, you still want a caseload, right,
And this is definitely one of those things that they
did not teach us in grad school. I don't know
if grad schools are teaching this now, but definitely when
I graduated, there was no marketing, like how do you
(33:44):
even get your first client? So what did you do
or what are you currently doing to market yourself? And
what would you like other therapists to know about different
avenues or different opportunities they might have to market themselves
as a therapist.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
One thing I.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
Used with social media, especially when I was getting started,
I needed people to understand what it was exactly that
I was doing as a therapist that may not meet
whatever they think a therapist is supposed to do, right,
So as a sex and relationship therapist, but with a
focus on colorism and texturism.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
A lot of the work that I was.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
Doing is let me educate you about what this thing
is and why you might need this thing. So educating
from that perspective in social media was a really great
help because it opened the door for people to understand
exactly what it was I was doing, why I was doing,
and why they might.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Want to come and see me.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
Specifically, because despite what they say profile on psychology today,
therapy for black girls and whatever, a plethora of other
spaces is not enough. That's more passive, and I wanted
to be more active. So in addition to that type
of marketing, I talked to therapists in this area, like,
who are the people who see my people who might
(35:03):
at some point be on overflow and need somebody to
service backup?
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Like me, pick me, choose me, love me. So that's
what I was, especially when I started.
Speaker 6 (35:15):
I feel like so many of those points were so wise,
Doctor Donna, because I was just talking to somebody on
the phone before I got on here. So my background
is in child psychology, but I don't do a lot
of assessments now, so I'll pretty much only do them
for BIPOD clients or when one of my black clindician's
colleagues refers them to me, because I really do not
like report writing.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
It's like anti marketing.
Speaker 6 (35:37):
But I was telling this parrot because they were talking
about how hard it is to find black therapists, especially
here in Utah, where I'm based, and I'm like, I
think we've got this underground railroad situation where we know
who will do what and so I do think it's
so wise to talk to other therapists in the area.
It may seem like competition, but because we're all doing
kind of different things, even if we have the same
(36:00):
focus on audiences, we might have a different flavor, different priorities,
and so it's not competition. And I would love to
decolonize competition, like I think there's enough for all of
us if we're working together. And so I really just
value a lot of what you said, and also just
the value of social media. That was something that I
was taught on one of my post fellowships that was
(36:21):
public health emphasized. Like all of the doctors, all of
the fellows, they were all on social media. And that's
how a lot of times you get to see what's
going on in the world, what other people are saying,
to exchange ideas, and then that becomes it's own marketing
across the country, especially for psychologists who have siepacked capability
(36:43):
if you apply for sypack, which means that you can
see people in many states over thirty states, So people
who were just limiting their marketing to their state. I
also have just looked at how being careful about how
I am describing myself. Our company takes lera client. Salaria
is a third party contractor. It works with a lot
(37:06):
of employee assistance programs. But for like pretty expansive companies,
and on those platforms, you only get so much space
to describe who you are, and so then it's important
that how you communicate things has the flavor of who
you are too, and not just what you do. Because
I work at an evidence based place, that's how it
(37:27):
markets itself. Then my first profile sound a little bit
like an evidence based robot, like I do I do,
and I'm like I read them all recently. I'm like,
this is not even who I am anymore, Like I'm
just a therapist. You could kick it. And so just
being able to communicate that stuff in your language, I
think is important if you're going to go those traditional
marketing routes, because you are still a brand, like even
(37:49):
if you're fresh out of school, you're a brand.
Speaker 7 (37:52):
Like doctor Donna said, people who already have the audience
that you're looking for. And if I'm looking to work
with black women's that I'm gonna be talking to hairstylists
about what it is that I do and how I
can offer support to them and to their clientele, because
you know, we've said in this the Larne chair and
we get to talking and people will talk about their
(38:12):
problems and does the lat is not always a place
to get the skills and the resources. So just being
a walking marketing opportunity for yourself talking to anyone who
might have your clientele as a captive audience, I think would.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
Be I think that there's so much good that has
been said. What I would add is that even though
there are all of these traditional sort of ways of marketing,
like social media or I guess social media is becoming
a bit more traditional, talking to other therapists, talking to
other doctors. I have personally found that working with other
(38:50):
agencies that are full and overflowing has been a really
great way to also get in the door. And I
find that talking to many different folks who are not
necessarily in the mental health world or connected to the
mental health world tend to really not have a strong
understanding of what we do. So I find myself even
(39:10):
there was a time at the airport not too long ago,
or ended up like explaining what it means to be
a trauma therapist, and it opened up this whole conversation.
I was even able to get a referral from that,
So I think it's really important to remember that our
referrals can come from even very obscure and peculiar places.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
More from our conversation after the break. It's a therapists
entire job, the whole space for the feelings of others,
but doing that work can take an emotional toll. And
let's be real, not all of us are practicing what
(39:50):
we preach when it comes to making time for our
own self care as therapists. So if you're looking to
find more ways to take care of yourself outside of
your work as a therapist and aren't sure where at
to start, here's some guidance from Josephine and doctor Oriowo.
You talked about it a little bit, doctor oriwell in
terms of the toll of like just trying to keep
track of all of this stuff. But I think the
(40:12):
other thing is the mental health told of just being
a therapist, right, So again, I think that's a lot.
We don't always know what we're getting into when we
become therapists, and a part of training is like teaching
you how to like undergo these difficult conversations with clients
and like how to not take it home and like
all of these different kinds of things. Though some of
our social media comments included so asked Bianca Sig wrote
(40:36):
how exhausting it can be and that sometimes I just
don't want to talk, which I think is a very
real you hear a lot of therapists say stuff like that.
Kindly beat It also wrote I didn't expect to have
so much counter transference and to feel the pain as
I've struggled with compartmentalization. So I think it is important
to remember, you know, we are actual humans who are
(40:57):
operating as therapists. We're not like therapeuticals. And so some
of the times stuff that our clients say like we
may have personally experienced with right, And it really is
a process of kind of learning how to separate your
stuff from your clients stuff so that you can be
there to support them. Doctor Orriowell, can you talk a
little bit about some of the mental health impact and
like what kinds of things future therapists need to be
(41:19):
aware of how to take care of themselves as they
also hold space for clients.
Speaker 4 (41:23):
I am a person that believes that proper self care
comes with great self knowledge.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
If you don't know yourself, it.
Speaker 4 (41:31):
Is very difficult to take care of yourself because you
don't know you well enough to know what you need.
Sometimes we learn by trial and error, but sometimes you know,
they say no, better, but we don't do better. Right,
We know better, but we don't change up what we're doing.
So one thing that I learned is that I had
to cap how many clients I was actually seeing in
a day and in a week. There was a magic
(41:54):
number where I felt good about what I was doing
and not overtaxed. I had to get some better bouts.
I was not emailing or looking at stuff, and had
a quiet time at the time that I needed it.
I don't like seeing morning clients first thing in the morning.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
I'm looking line.
Speaker 4 (42:10):
I'm not trying to talk to nobody at seven and
eight am, And yet some of these therapists out here
they be doing that. I'm like, that's your ministry, that's
not my ministry. So for me and for mine, the
day started at noon until recently, because now I'm like, oh,
I like a nine am every other Monday, not every
single Monday. But I use that knowledge of myself to
(42:33):
create a schedule that felt good for me and so
that I wasn't drained, And I definitely agree with what
you said. I'm a person first, so some of that
has been making sure that I'm actually properly fed and hydrated.
Some of it is making sure I'm appropriately rested, and
sometimes looking at the chaos. If there is chaos in
my life, I have to determine am I really in
(42:56):
the best position to be doing the work that I'm
doing right now to in this moment?
Speaker 2 (43:01):
Do I need to reschedule people? Do I need to
move people?
Speaker 4 (43:05):
So for me, I like seeing clients on Monday, and
I'm at a point in my practice now where I
only see Monday clients. I don't do therapy the rest
of the week. I cap my day at seven. Once
I start getting into that eight nine territory, don't feel
good no more. And after every two to three clients,
I have an hour break. So yeah, it might take
(43:27):
me the entire day to do the therapy day, but
I'm taking regular breaks for my mental and emotional wellbeing.
I talk to black women, so if something touches me
a little extra close, I modulate what I'm going to
say next, and I have to ask myself is this for.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
You or is it for them?
Speaker 4 (43:47):
I ask that question and that helps me every single time.
But I would also say that another way to simply
just modulate, And I'll give it with a baby story.
Back when I first started private practice, I took any
client that would have me. So I was seeing children,
I was seeing adults, I was seeing people of color,
I saw black people, I saw white people, right, I
(44:07):
was seeing everybody. And it wasn't until I niched that
I stopped feeling so drained. Because the point is I
didn't like working with kids. The kids were not the problem.
I didn't like that they came with parents. Didn't like
working with their parents because it required extra work and
extra energy that was often not paid for right, and
(44:28):
it felt like there was no real return other than
to say, hey, you keep.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
Undoing the work that I do in the therapy room with.
Speaker 4 (44:34):
Your kid, like, please stop. So I stopped seeing kids
because I knew that wasn't my ministry. I did not
want to spend an abundance of my day seeing white
folk and trying to get them to understand that you
saying the N word to me might lead to us
having to fight, right, Because in that moment I am
a therapist. I'm not your therapist. We go, we could
get down with the get down, call me a in
(44:55):
one more time. So I had to realize that I
needed to niche in. This is unpopular opinion in some way,
but I believe that my clients also pour into me
as I pour into them. I believe that there is
reciprocity there, and that the reciprocity does not come with
the payment, but it comes with how they show up
and see you as a person and you are seeing
(45:16):
them as a person. Right, the therapeutic relationship should be
a reciprocal relationship. It should still be mostly heavy sided
on one end, but it shouldn't feel like I'm a
dumping ground either. I do not do dumping ground therapy.
I am not your place to lay all your stuff
and leave. I'm a processing center, as in, you put
(45:37):
it down, We're gonna process it, but I'm gonna give
it back. That stuff is not mine and having to
make sure that I remember that it is not mine.
But niching down helped me to also feel a lot
less strained in doing this work.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Thank you for that. What about you, Josephine.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
This is a.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
Lesson that I am learning as I'm going along, because
I think that with getting all of these hours done,
I wanted to get them done as quickly as possible.
I did not want to be working on these hours
for years and years and years on end. So I
burned myself out getting those hours done. Colorado is one
(46:17):
of the few states where you can open a private
practice before you're fully licensed, as long as you have
a supervisor. So I was working in my private practice,
working in a bunch of different environments, seeing anyone, well
mostly anyone who would come in the door, because I
wanted to get those hours done. I highly recommend that
that not be the process, because once I got to
(46:40):
the LCSW, I was barely able to enjoy it because
I was so tired from what I had put myself
through in those last two years. So I think in
terms of not burning out or being able to make sure,
I definitely agree with doctor Donna that niching is so important,
(47:02):
and also knowing that just because someone else's client load
looks one way does not mean that it has to
look that way for you, especially in.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
The environment that I am in.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
I see some white clients, but they have to be
a really good fit for me, like they have to
really be feeding into the work that I do. And
I say straight up to my clients, if you say
anything racist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islam, if there's a phobic or
an ism at the end, you are not going to
(47:36):
work out because I have to protect my energy and
I have to protect my well being as a therapist
in order to be able to serve everyone else that's
on my caseload along with you. So I think for
black women who are coming into being therapists, there is
(47:56):
nothing wrong if you just want to see black women. Frankly,
if I could go back and do it all over again,
that's probably the way I would go back and do it.
I also think that there's a lot of worth in
being able to learn how to say no, not only
say no in terms of clients, being able to say no.
(48:17):
If you're working in an agency, or if you're in
a training and there's something that is actually harmful or
another professional says something that actually is more harmful than helpful,
being able to say that is not okay with me.
So I think that's how I protect a lot of
my energy now is by learning how to say no
(48:39):
and being able to hold that space and really prioritize
what's important to me. I find that teaching brings me
a lot of joy. Before being a therapist, that was
a teacher. So coming back in and teaching at the
graduate level, I find that brings me a lot of
peace and a lot of joy. So I'm going to
put more time into that then to put my time
(49:00):
into trying to fill up my caseload. So I would say,
especially if folks are working toward hours, like the hours
can't come before the mental health and the well being.
If it takes you two and a half years rather
than it taking two years, it takes you four years
rather than two years, that's fine because the hope is
that you're able to get to the finish line in
(49:22):
one piece and able to continue doing the work after
you've finished the hours. Because if you get to that
point where you're so burned out that you can't even
continue after the out, then what was then what was
the point of doing the thing? So I find that
(49:42):
a lot of times I have to remind myself that
it's not okay for me to burn myself out and
I'm worth taking care of to the point now where
I stick almost pretty strictly to fifty five minute sessions,
so that I have five minutes to go to the restroom,
grab a bite to eat, stand outside for a few
(50:05):
seconds before I come back in because I know as
a person I have to replenish myself. I can do
eight in a row. That's not a big problem for me,
but I need that forty minutes that is comprised into
those five minutes to be able to decompress, breathe before
I go into the next one.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
I want to think Josephine, doctor Apple White, doctor Jackson,
and doctor Oriole will once again for joining me for
these episodes. To learn more about the work that they're doing,
be sure to visit our show notes at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot Com Session three sixty six, and don't forget
to text this episode to two of your girls right
now and tell them to check it out. If you're
(50:49):
looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist
directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And
if you want to continue digging into this topic or
just be a community with others, come on over and
join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner
of the Internet design just for Black women. You can
join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com
(51:11):
and if you want to check out all the other
programming we have in store for Minority Mental Health Awareness Month,
visit the website at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash
mm HM. This episode was produced by Alice Ellis and
Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all
so much for joining me again this week. I look
(51:31):
forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
Take good care.
Speaker 2 (51:40):
What's
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three sixty six of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after a word from our sponsors. Why do friendship
breakups sometimes hurt more than romantic ones? How do I
make friends in a new city? Is it true that
women can't actually be good friends to one another? I'm
(01:20):
exploring all of these questions and so much more in
my book, Sisterhood Heels, now available in paperback at your
local independent bookstore our at sisterhood Heels dot com. Grab
a copy for you and your girls, and let's talk
about it some of you may know that July is
(01:43):
one of my favorite months of the year, and that's
because it's when Therapy for Black Girls observes Minority Mental
Health Awareness Month. This year, we've chosen the theme Holding
Space for Healers, putting the spotlight on the therapist and
all those who dedicated their careers to holding space for others.
All month long, you can expect conversations centered around the
(02:04):
experiences and perspectives of mental health professionals. To kick the
month off, you're sharing a compilation of some of the
greatest gyms, tips and insights from our three part Becoming
a Therapist series. You'll hear from my accomplished and brilliant
colleagues Josephine and Paul Green, doctor Kimberly Applewhite, doctor DeAndrea Jackson,
(02:26):
and doctor Donna Oriowoe as they share their advice on
navigating the licensure process, doing the internal work necessary before
seeing clients, some of the practical and financial concerns involved
with being a therapist, and what it looks like to
take care of yourself outside of your work as a therapist.
If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please
(02:47):
share with us on social media using the hashtag TVG
in Session, or join us in the Sister Circle to
talk more about the episode. You can join us at
community dot therapy for Black Girls dot com. Here's our conversation.
If there's the hardest part about becoming a therapist, then
(03:07):
the licensing process just might be top three, from the
number of steps to the different rules required in different states.
We know that it can be a grueling and discouraging experience.
Starting us off with some affirmations and advice or doctor Applewhite,
Doctor Orioo, Doctor Jackson, and Josephine, as they discussed their
(03:28):
experiences in becoming licensed therapists. Take a listen. So I
know that we all know the grueling process that is
often that of licensure.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
So this listen.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Josephine, your eyes rolling all the way back in your head.
It's just so many steps and so this is the
thing that it feels like had the most energy when
we talked about it on social just because I feel
like a lot of us did not know what we
were in for in terms of like you think you
go to school and it's like okay, well I'm good,
but no, they are all these like post degree licensure
supervision hours, and like y'all have already talked about, sometimes
(04:02):
we have to find people to pay to do those.
So let me just read you a couple of other comments.
So Crystal George RD wrote, transitioning from a trainee to
an associate is a mental hurdle. One minute, you're an amateur,
and then when you get a job and you're expected
to be the expert. It takes a lot of grounding
and self acceptance to know that you're still an amateur
that will always be growing and learning through the field.
(04:23):
There's a lot of imposter syndrome that comes to as
you deal with more difficult cases, but eventually, as you
become more competent, it passes. Sarah Phoebe wrote the required
three thousand hours are a pain off, and then State
of Mind Journal wrote, I wasn't prepared for all of
the stigma. I also wish someone would have told me
that most of the costs came out of your pocket
(04:45):
beyond just the degrees. Every licensee in North Carolina wants
me to pay their rate by the hour for my
supervised hours. They only allow a small group of students
and to graduate school where their supervised hours are a
part of their degree. I should have gotten a bachelor's
in social works so that I could still be making
an income while I'll wait, but lessons learned. So talk
to me a little bit about your licensure process, Josephine.
(05:08):
It sounds like you're still having a bit of a
licensure process as you work to become a supervisor. And
some of the things are words of wisdom that you
would offer to people who are kind of in this journey.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Now you are so right. Yes, my eyes definitely went
all the way in the back of my head what
you said licensure, because i finished my licensed clinical social
work hours three three hundred and sixty of them, and
that I'm doing the hours for the MFT, which is
another two thousand, and then I'm doing the hours for
(05:38):
the license Addictions Counselor, which is another two thousand. So
I have found that when it comes to licensure, it
is a journey that I think it makes me a
stronger therapist, like gives me real thick skin in terms
of being able to handle the oppressive systems that we
(05:58):
operate within. And the silver lining of it is it's
really open the opportunity for me to meet other professionals
that I don't think I would have otherwise been able
to work with. My experience in becoming a licensed clinical
social worker was unique in the fact that I was
(06:19):
working in many different places at the same time, so
I was trying to collect all of these hours, which
meant that I had the opportunity to learn from so
many different professionals. I implore folks working towards relicentshire to
not amount their worth as a therapist to the license.
(06:41):
There's a huge and at least in my experience, I
thought I was less of a therapist because I didn't
have the LCSW yet, But that's just simply not true.
You're getting these hours so that you're able to get
more experience. But there's a reason why you got into
graduate school. Let's start there. There's a reason why you
(07:02):
got whatever employment that you got, or if you're in
private practice, there's a reason why you're doing that. So
there's so much that you can offer and that you
can give while you're on your way there and when
you get there. I threw myself a whole party when
I got all of my hours, because it is a
huge accomplishment doing it once doing it twice, doing three
(07:26):
times for me, And it's so crucial to know the
steps and know exactly what the licensing agencies are looking
for and being aware of what changes happen, because in
Colorado the licensing requirements for social work have changed about
(07:47):
three times over since I started with trying to get
my license in twenty twenty and now working to be
a supervisor. Luckily there aren't a ton of requirements for that,
but those things keep changing. So I always imploor folks
to really keep your eyes open, subscribe to whatever newsletter
your licensing agency has so that whenever there's an update,
(08:09):
you're always up to date on it. So those are
a couple of things I fly thank.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
You for that, and I think it is important to
talk about. So as therapists, we are licensed in individual states.
So as of yet, though there is some movement to
talk about, like okay, can we have national licenses, like
is there really a need to have this, But as
of right now, we are licensed in each individual state.
So if you want to see clients in Georgia, where
I am, then you have to have a license from
(08:35):
the border social work, border psychology, border marriage, and family
therapy to be able to see clients. And if you
want to do that, then in North Carolina you have
to have a different license, right, And the states don't
all have the same requirements. So some states have like
this verbal thing that you have to go and do.
Most states have like a test that you have to take.
But there are lots of different requirements. So that's a
(08:55):
great point, Josephine, is to kind of make sure that
you know the requirements, especially if you're somebody who's going
to be like applying in different states at the same time.
You want to make sure you don't miss something because
one state requires fifteen hundred hours versus two thousand. So
I think that is important to kind of point out
what about you, Doctor Orio will talk to us a
little bit about your process.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
This is such a long time ago because.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
Right, so, like I walked across the stage with a
license because I took my test before I graduated, because
you're allowed to do it so many months ahead of graduation,
sophen ahead, and I was like, well, might as well
go ahead to take it to one.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
If I failed, then I got a little grace period.
I can do it again.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
But I will say this the number one strategic thinking
is my strength, and that was part of my strategy.
If I can walk across the stage with my license,
then that's one last thing for me to have to
worry about when I got my degree in hand, because
I will walk across the stage knowing that I'm licensed.
And when it came time to do the clinical licensure,
the way I was studying, I was just like, we
(09:56):
study a little bit at a time.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
We don't cram.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
I took my time, I read books, but I probably
did things in a way that some people don't. I
took a practice test first before I began studying. I'm like,
there's no point in me studying for things that I
already know, so let me let the test tell me
what I already know. Then I could study to my
weaknesses and not study to my strengths. I mean, I
was still gonna get those strengths anyway, but that was
(10:19):
part of my strategy.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
You're gonna have to do what you do for you.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
And same thing when I was doing ASEX certification, just
making sure that you understand exactly what the requirements are.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Just like Josephine said, like, don't be planed around.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
You're gonna find yourself in the world to hurt, not
knowing what it is that you're doing and for where
you're doing it, and knowing that certain licenses do not
just automatically transfer, because I think that a lot of
people thought that you could just apply and be given reciprocity.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
New York.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
Don't play those games. California. Don't play those games in California.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
You gotta take a law class. Stop playing. In New York.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
They require very specific classes as well that a lot
of states do not require. So you're gonna have to
get that first. And if you want to transfer that license,
it's ten years. You have to do ten years already
as a clinical social worker, because I'm a social worker
in order for that joont to even go over there.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
So I think that a lot of people.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Are not looking when they're doing this thing, and sometimes
we're in such a rush to get the thing that
we're not sitting down to look at. Okay, whether the requirements,
what do I need to do, What is the best
order for me to do this in as opposed to
let me just start and hope I don't have to
double back.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
I find that that is a.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Beautiful, delicious, tremendous waste of time and taking the time
to sit down and consider what you want where you
want it, and also bringing in the why, because I
don't think that all of us are fully entrenched in
our why. I know some therapists that I look at them,
I'm like, Wow, you better than me. They got ten
ten licenses in ten different states, and for the life
(11:59):
of me, I cannot figure out why, Like, what was
the purpose behind ten licenses in ten states? And if
you don't know your why, then maybe pause, figure out
the why, make sure it's an alignment with what it
is that you're saying that you want, and then move forward.
Because I'll say this, I did consider licensing in New
(12:20):
York and California and Georgia, and then I remember that
baby girl been full since twenty eighteen. I've been full
since twenty eighteen. I'm not hurting for clients. Why would
I get that license in these other states? When I
can't see nobody, I'm like, could I hire somebody else?
Speaker 3 (12:40):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (12:40):
Or just throwing this out there right, Or I can
focus on where I am because I love my sisters
here in the DMV and we still need stuff. I
can let people who are in New York handle New
York and I can handle the DMV. So just throwing
that out there as well, because I see everybody going
(13:02):
for all fifty states and I'm just like, better you
than me, because when it comes time to pay the
piper on those renos.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Not I.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
So we already know that becoming a therapist takes a
lot of work, from school to licensing to clinical hours. Well,
one type of work that is overlooked is self work,
interrogating your own internalized biases and traumas that could potentially
show up in your work with clients. Here's a snippet
from Becoming a Therapist, Part two. We respond to a
community member's story about learning about wounds they didn't even
(13:35):
know existed until working with clients, So something we didn't
get a chance to get to in Part one of
this conversation was of the personal development piece that is
required to become a therapist. So one of our community
members wrote on Instagram at Jump for Joe, she said,
I definitely didn't expect the healing it forced me to
(13:55):
do in places I thought were already healed. It has
made me a more attuned human so that I'm able
to properly show up, not just for my clients in
the therapeutic space, but also for myself and loved ones.
So I'd love to hear from both of you a
little bit about like your own personal development and like
what kinds of things have you learned about yourself or
had to attend to in your work as a practicing clinician.
Speaker 5 (14:18):
Well, I got a lot of feedback in internship. I
was a fixer when I first came in, and so
I just wanted to dive right in there and try
to give my clients the answers as opposed to accompanying
them on the journey of building insight and developing that
sense of self awareness and that mindfulness of what it
is that they're dealing with and helping them put those
(14:39):
puzzle pieces together. So on the outside I was like, Oh,
I see this, and let's do this, and we can
at this and we can do that. And that was
sometimes not helpful for my clients and internship because they
didn't learn from the process. So I had to learn
to hush myself in session. And I also had to
learn to monitor my nonverbals. I think that was really
(15:02):
another one for me, because my face will speak before
I have an opportunity to and with all my black
girl energy that I was trying not to bring to
the military space because it didn't seem like a warm,
welcoming environment. For that that used to be a challenge
for me. I also, upon embarking on treating trauma, had
to learn to work through my own stuff that I
(15:24):
thought was healed but was not. And especially in the
context of providing manual based therapy like cognitive processing therapy
or prolonged exposure, those kind of things can really have
an impact, especially once you start doing it regularly with
multiple clients. And so sitting with that and working through
your own stuff, getting your own counselor and continuing to
(15:46):
see your own counselor so important in the process of
becoming a therapist.
Speaker 6 (15:50):
Yeah, I agree with so much of that. And I
was thinking about to how when I was in graduate school,
do you think you made it right, especially like on
a doctoral level, you're like, man, like I've gotten an
American dream or whatever. And then when I came to
do and I can remember clearly a time where we
(16:13):
were talking about the idea of stereotype threat. I went
to NYU. They were doing a lot of that work
at NYU went at the leads On that was still
a professor in the Steinhart School, so I was familiar.
But then I learned that the other person, Claude Steele,
was a black man, and in my head I thought
(16:33):
that Clode Steele was a white woman, like I guess
I had the Danielle Steel books in mind or whatever.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
So that was the first thing.
Speaker 6 (16:41):
And then at the time that I was in graduate school,
Norm Anderson was the CEO of APA, and he is
also a black man who graduated from North Carolina Central University.
And you know, I mentioned I'm from the South, but
I'm from North Carolina specifically, and I went to boarding
school right down the street from NCCU and didn't really
(17:02):
seriously consider going there because of really all of this
internalized racist stuff, frankly, that I had growing up as
a black kid in the South. And so when I
realized that, and I noticed my surprise about that, Hey,
these are really successful people and they're you know, they're
(17:23):
black people and they grew up similar to me, I
was like, oh crap, Like what am I assuming about
myself and my own likelihood of being successful in graduate school?
If it's really this surprising to me that there's black
people out here doing this, and to think that not
everybody that gets a graduate school is going to have
those emotion skills to be able to pinpoint something like that.
(17:47):
And so yeah, as long as it's undeveloped, like, realizations
like that are really jarring and difficult. And then when
you get into kind of your passions or and when
I've gotten into my passions and things that you know,
I feel strongly about caring for black youth, tending to
racially stressful and traumatic events in the community, and then
(18:09):
you have people kind of devalue those things, people that
you think should know better because they're all in the
mental health fields. It continues to bring up things that,
like doctor Jackson was saying, really do require what you
be in your own work, like that you have a
space to process those things. One of the reasons that
I like being a DBT therapist so much is that
(18:33):
there is a little bit of room, well, there is
lots of room in the model to be more self
disclosing because in DBT, a lot of times people have
experienced invalidating environments and that's where they learned a lot
of the ways that they are coping with the world,
and so it's important to be genuine and appropriate ways.
(18:54):
And so then I really like being able to be
genuine and expecting that the type of relationships I build,
people will call out what seems like it's therapy interfering
and give me that chance to process it, but that
I don't have to put on certain types of language
or put on a front to be a certain thing
that I'm not. But yeah, you really do learn a
(19:16):
lot of treatment paradigms say, you know, practice the skills
on yourself, and it's all kinds of things like practicing
skills of self compassion, emotion regulation. I can't come into
work tired, not having eating and yet I have these realities, right,
I have two kids at home, I have all of
these things that I'm doing in the community, and so
really have to practice the skills to be able to
(19:38):
do what I'm doing on a daily basis and then
to be able to share that with clients. When we're
working with skills, it's like, man, you might want to
call BS on a lot of this because the implementation
is difficult and I'm doing it like we're doing it together.
So yeah, you really do learn so much more from.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Our conversation after the break, but first a quick snip
of what's to come next week on TBG. I'll say this,
I was so scared that I would be recognized. And
actually every semester I did get recognized by one person
in each class, but they wouldn't say anything until like
maybe the middle of the semester or at the very end.
(20:18):
One classmate wore the Reds T shirt like wore our
merch and I was like, Okay, you ain't have to
do that, you ain't have to do that. But the
people who did recognize me were very low key about it,
very cool. Even at graduation, a girl came up to
me and was like congrats, and I was like, I
just need you to not tell nobody. Just don't tell
(20:40):
nobody until the ceremony is over, because I really wanted
to do this program anonymously. This July Therapy for Black
Girls is bringing our yearly Minority Mental Health Month celebration
in person to Atlanta, Georgia when us Thursday July eighteenth
(21:01):
and Friday July nineteenth, as we shine a light on
mental health professionals and all those who dedicated their careers
to holding space for others. Our inaugural holding space for
Healers Therapists Summit will gather some of our favorite voices
in the field for workshops, seminars, and opportunities to connect.
You don't want to miss this, so secure your ticket
(21:22):
to wellness by visiting Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Healers.
We don't traditionally think of therapists as business owners, but
deciding to begin your own practice is indeed starting a business.
It isn't easy trying to navigate the world of social media,
(21:42):
marketing and financial planning. So I'm glad that my colleague
could join me to discuss some best practices and advice
around this topic. Here's a clip. So you both have
thriving private practices and so this, I know, is the
thing that nobody teaches us in grad school. The surprise,
I feel like more schools are adding in some of
(22:02):
these kind of business like or opening up a practice,
but for a very long time, there has been no
instruction on what to do after your actually licensed. Like
there's lots of preparation about how to seek clients, but
nobody teaches you how to actually run a practice. And
so some of the comments that we got online so real.
Nicole wrote the business side of having your own practice.
(22:24):
If you desire to have your own practice, learn about business,
engage with console groups, get connected with local counseling groups
and the state board, and then sharing Moseley at the
fit Talk road. You need to understand the business side,
not just therapy, which I think both of you would
agree with. So talk to me a little bit about
how you actually learned how to have a business and
(22:45):
what suggestions you would offer two sisters who are interested
in opening a practice.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
I found that it is not only important to learn
the knowledge for yourself, but also know who are the
experts of the things that you don't know. So, for example,
I have an incredible bookkeeper and an incredible attorney who
I turn to and I say, hey, I don't know
(23:11):
how this works, so help me figure out how it works.
I don't think that owning a business is about being
the expert of everything. I think owning a business is
about knowing who to ask for help in the things
that you are not an expert in. I focus on
the therapy, I focus on the consulting, I focus on
the curriculum, writing, and all those things that I was
(23:33):
trained in. But when I'm able to extend and ask
for that help. That also prevents burnout from me. I
think another piece of running a private practice is trial
and error. Knowing that there is a huge part of
knowing that things that you try in the beginning don't
(23:53):
necessarily have to be what you stick with in the
long haul. Like if you want to see twenty clients
a week and you change your mind, you say you
want to say fifteen clients a week, and the math
maths up, then do it if you realize, okay, I
have capacity to see more, Like no one in private
practice should feel like just because they started doing something
(24:17):
one way, they have to continue doing it that way.
Like the way that I run a private practice now
being an LCSW is not going to be the way
I run a private practice when I'm in a doctoral program,
which we'd love to talk to you all about mentorship boom.
It's a thing right in the moment, and the way
that I do it after I have a PhD is
going to be very different. So knowing that as we
(24:37):
grow and evolve as humans, our needs are naturally going
to change and that's okay. And knowing who the experts are.
There are tons of folks even on Instagram, on Facebook,
on TikTok, who know and share a lot of knowledge
of things that we can prevent if we look out
(24:59):
for the resources. And as business owners, it's important to
know that answers are not going to come to us.
We have to go and find them.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
I know you got a lot to say. They're doctor Will.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
Doctor Jetta Robinson. I joined at the time it was
called Private Practice Academy, and.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
I learned what I needed to learn right there. It
had a built in community feel.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
She was already an expert right with like seven or
eight figure private practice.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Who else finn to teach you?
Speaker 4 (25:31):
And the way that she teaches, she thinks about what
it takes for you to actually learn this information and
for you to do this in a way that is
going to be sustainable in.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
The long run.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
Because let's be real, some of these private practices out
here that sprung up in COVID are not private practices.
They are a therapists who just happened to practice privately.
Your business is not a business boo. It's not a
business boo. And looking like some people are running around here,
not ANLC to be seen. Just the name and the
(26:02):
money is depositive into their private account while they don't
have any insurance.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
And I'm just like, all this is gonna.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
Take is one client one to suit you and they
get to take everything out your bank account because you
don't have a business account. I'm saying those basic business things.
These are not things that grew up just knowing.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Nor is it just.
Speaker 4 (26:21):
Things that we just got out of our social work
or mental health counseling programs.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
They didn't teach us how to be business owners. They
taught us how to do therapy.
Speaker 4 (26:31):
And remembering that you still need someone that has expertise
that is different from yours means that you go find
the people who have business acumen. Don't just be asking
you know your friend who also don't have an LLC
and who is putting money in their bank account or
telling their clients to just cash at me. Look, I
(26:52):
done heard and sink some things right. So I found
that being a part of the Private Practice Academy really
helped me to number one, get my foundations right, so
that when I decided I was going from a solo
practice to a.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Group practice, it one no thing.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
And I definitely agreed with what Justpine said. I have
people who know what they are doing, so my accountant
knows what she is doing. They focus on private practices actually,
so I've been able to just be like, all right, cool,
this is what I want to do next. They're like, well,
if you want to hire this thing, you're gonna need
to figure out this thing first. I'm like, bebbee, you
(27:30):
ain't said nothing but what I'm gonna figure that out
and I'm gonna talk to an expert so that i
can do what I need to do. So, if you're
having a business, you're gonna reinvest into your business the
same way that you invested into the knowledge base that
you have to be a great therapist. Don't be shy
about that money coming out that account when it's time
to learn his business stuff. I'm not saying you have
(27:51):
to go get an MBA, but certainly you have to
be willing to put up more than fifty dollars a
month to get the thing that you needed from these
other people who have an expertise too. I had found
that people be wanting something for nothing. They don't want
to put time in, and they don't want to put
money in, but they still want to be able to
reap all the benefits and get where they want to go.
(28:13):
But I will say that I feel like I got
my money back from what I invested with doctor Jetta
and her crew simply because of the way that they
sort of outlined everything. That's what really worked for me. Now,
I had tried some other ones. I'm not going to
name them because you know, and try to hurt nobody's feelings.
But I did try some other ones, and for me,
(28:34):
those were I call that lesson learned money as and
I learned me some lessons. I learned that you're not
the one for me, that your approach does not work
with what I need, and I needed to do a
better job of vetting according to what I knew about
me and not just what I know about this program.
And I will say that this is lifelong learning. As
your business grows and changes, you have to be willing
(28:56):
to continue to invest in that way. So right now
I'm a part of two men or minds that are
focused on business. I'm also in one that is focused
on marketing. This is how I am learning so that
I can continue to pour into my practice in a
way that doesn't take things away from me. If you
want your business to be a business and.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Not a hobby and be gone by. I mean what
they say we in a recession.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
Recession proofing yourself also requires you to have some business acumen,
and that means that you're gonna have to put some
money up or you're gonna have to shut up.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
So I feel like it's a running refrain when I
talk with other therapists about this, like there's so much
we don't learn in grad school about like actually either
operating a practice or even being in private practice. I
know there's probably so many things, but what is one
thing that you feel like you did not learn in
grad school about either being in a private practice or
owning your private practice that you would love to share
(29:47):
with other people that you've been able to kind of
figure out on.
Speaker 5 (29:50):
Your own establishing a business plan. And I can't even
say that I figured that out on my own. I'm
blessed to be married to a man who has an
MBA Harvest did that knowledge from him, and he's also
in finance. But there's so much about stepping into the
space of running your own practice that you have to
be knowledgeable about business plan and marketing strategies and marketing
(30:12):
analyzes and slide analysis, so that you can recognize what
it is that you want to do, how it aligns
with your values, but also how it makes business sense. Right,
So I hear doctor Applewhite saying that it just didn't
make good businesses and the systems not working for all parties.
I absolutely agree with her on that. And so having
a solid business plan, understanding your business model, identifying how
(30:35):
you can work into your business plan, these alternative streams
of income so you're not grasping at straws. I think
it's so important, and it's not something that a lot
of academic programs are offering. So once clinicians get out
into the space of establishing their own practices, a lot
of times we're like clueless and don't even know where
to start. And then once we get a little bit
(30:56):
of taste of that information is very overwhelming in terms
of of all the things that need to be accomplished
and the boxes that need to be checked. So I
would say establishing a solid business plan is necessary to know.
Speaker 6 (31:08):
I hope that people coming through grad school now the
training is different, but I feel like the importance of
technology was under emphasized in school, and of course in
this pandemic and post pandemic world, it's become more important
than ever to be flexible to the needs of clients
and use technology. The older I get, and you know,
(31:30):
I'm thirty four, but I try to see teaen clients
and I don't know what's going on with them, because
like technology has just advanced. And you know, I tell
people I had kids in graduate school, so my knowledge
of pop culture is kind of limited and perhaps dead.
It's limited to like the time my first kid was born,
Like all of my music knowledge is mainly from before
(31:52):
twenty fourteen, Like.
Speaker 4 (31:54):
It's just dead.
Speaker 6 (31:54):
But then when you're working with clients, like there is
a need to stay relevant and stay connected to what
people are talking about. Like it's come up that TikTok
has advanced or I don't know if you call it advanced,
it certainly has put out there a lot of talk
about mental health. Some of it is accurate, some of
it is effective, some of it is not. You got
(32:16):
kids run around thinking they have DD and they're like,
what D ideas only in like I don't zer point
five percent of the population or something like what's the
prevalence of that? Or you know, people say, ADHD is
this ADHD is that, And I'm like, maybe you've got
some other things going on, like maybe you needed an evaluation.
But as long as we're kind of constrained to offices
(32:38):
and not regularly engaging with technology, then we won't be prepared.
Then the next pandemic or that kind of event will
come around, then you won't know what to do. Like
doctor Jackson was doing telehealth before telehealth was cool in essence,
before that, you know, all kinds of shape was like, oh, yeah,
telehealth didn't work as well, even though the evidence was
there that it did, or like, oh, you're gonna be
(33:01):
disconnected from this, that, and the other if you go
tell health. And then we all had to do it.
So some of us were able to like continue to
grow and develop that being connected to technology. And sometimes
I think we can pull ourselves into thinking we only
have to be connected to the work, but the work
is technology. We'll get left behind if we're not keeping up.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Mm hmmm. So one of the questions that we have
not been able to get to that I really want
to spend some time talking about is the idea of
marketing yourself as a private practice therapist or even if
you're not in private practice, you still want a caseload, right,
And this is definitely one of those things that they
did not teach us in grad school. I don't know
if grad schools are teaching this now, but definitely when
I graduated, there was no marketing, like how do you
(33:44):
even get your first client? So what did you do
or what are you currently doing to market yourself? And
what would you like other therapists to know about different
avenues or different opportunities they might have to market themselves
as a therapist.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
One thing I.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
Used with social media, especially when I was getting started,
I needed people to understand what it was exactly that
I was doing as a therapist that may not meet
whatever they think a therapist is supposed to do, right,
So as a sex and relationship therapist, but with a
focus on colorism and texturism.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
A lot of the work that I was.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
Doing is let me educate you about what this thing
is and why you might need this thing. So educating
from that perspective in social media was a really great
help because it opened the door for people to understand
exactly what it was I was doing, why I was doing,
and why they might.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Want to come and see me.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
Specifically, because despite what they say profile on psychology today,
therapy for black girls and whatever, a plethora of other
spaces is not enough. That's more passive, and I wanted
to be more active. So in addition to that type
of marketing, I talked to therapists in this area, like,
who are the people who see my people who might
(35:03):
at some point be on overflow and need somebody to
service backup?
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Like me, pick me, choose me, love me. So that's
what I was, especially when I started.
Speaker 6 (35:15):
I feel like so many of those points were so wise,
Doctor Donna, because I was just talking to somebody on
the phone before I got on here. So my background
is in child psychology, but I don't do a lot
of assessments now, so I'll pretty much only do them
for BIPOD clients or when one of my black clindician's
colleagues refers them to me, because I really do not
like report writing.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
It's like anti marketing.
Speaker 6 (35:37):
But I was telling this parrot because they were talking
about how hard it is to find black therapists, especially
here in Utah, where I'm based, and I'm like, I
think we've got this underground railroad situation where we know
who will do what and so I do think it's
so wise to talk to other therapists in the area.
It may seem like competition, but because we're all doing
kind of different things, even if we have the same
(36:00):
focus on audiences, we might have a different flavor, different priorities,
and so it's not competition. And I would love to
decolonize competition, like I think there's enough for all of
us if we're working together. And so I really just
value a lot of what you said, and also just
the value of social media. That was something that I
was taught on one of my post fellowships that was
(36:21):
public health emphasized. Like all of the doctors, all of
the fellows, they were all on social media. And that's
how a lot of times you get to see what's
going on in the world, what other people are saying,
to exchange ideas, and then that becomes it's own marketing
across the country, especially for psychologists who have siepacked capability
(36:43):
if you apply for sypack, which means that you can
see people in many states over thirty states, So people
who were just limiting their marketing to their state. I
also have just looked at how being careful about how
I am describing myself. Our company takes lera client. Salaria
is a third party contractor. It works with a lot
(37:06):
of employee assistance programs. But for like pretty expansive companies,
and on those platforms, you only get so much space
to describe who you are, and so then it's important
that how you communicate things has the flavor of who
you are too, and not just what you do. Because
I work at an evidence based place, that's how it
(37:27):
markets itself. Then my first profile sound a little bit
like an evidence based robot, like I do I do,
and I'm like I read them all recently. I'm like,
this is not even who I am anymore, Like I'm
just a therapist. You could kick it. And so just
being able to communicate that stuff in your language, I
think is important if you're going to go those traditional
marketing routes, because you are still a brand, like even
(37:49):
if you're fresh out of school, you're a brand.
Speaker 7 (37:52):
Like doctor Donna said, people who already have the audience
that you're looking for. And if I'm looking to work
with black women's that I'm gonna be talking to hairstylists
about what it is that I do and how I
can offer support to them and to their clientele, because
you know, we've said in this the Larne chair and
we get to talking and people will talk about their
(38:12):
problems and does the lat is not always a place
to get the skills and the resources. So just being
a walking marketing opportunity for yourself talking to anyone who
might have your clientele as a captive audience, I think would.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
Be I think that there's so much good that has
been said. What I would add is that even though
there are all of these traditional sort of ways of marketing,
like social media or I guess social media is becoming
a bit more traditional, talking to other therapists, talking to
other doctors. I have personally found that working with other
(38:50):
agencies that are full and overflowing has been a really
great way to also get in the door. And I
find that talking to many different folks who are not
necessarily in the mental health world or connected to the
mental health world tend to really not have a strong
understanding of what we do. So I find myself even
(39:10):
there was a time at the airport not too long ago,
or ended up like explaining what it means to be
a trauma therapist, and it opened up this whole conversation.
I was even able to get a referral from that,
So I think it's really important to remember that our
referrals can come from even very obscure and peculiar places.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
More from our conversation after the break. It's a therapists
entire job, the whole space for the feelings of others,
but doing that work can take an emotional toll. And
let's be real, not all of us are practicing what
(39:50):
we preach when it comes to making time for our
own self care as therapists. So if you're looking to
find more ways to take care of yourself outside of
your work as a therapist and aren't sure where at
to start, here's some guidance from Josephine and doctor Oriowo.
You talked about it a little bit, doctor oriwell in
terms of the toll of like just trying to keep
track of all of this stuff. But I think the
(40:12):
other thing is the mental health told of just being
a therapist, right, So again, I think that's a lot.
We don't always know what we're getting into when we
become therapists, and a part of training is like teaching
you how to like undergo these difficult conversations with clients
and like how to not take it home and like
all of these different kinds of things. Though some of
our social media comments included so asked Bianca Sig wrote
(40:36):
how exhausting it can be and that sometimes I just
don't want to talk, which I think is a very
real you hear a lot of therapists say stuff like that.
Kindly beat It also wrote I didn't expect to have
so much counter transference and to feel the pain as
I've struggled with compartmentalization. So I think it is important
to remember, you know, we are actual humans who are
(40:57):
operating as therapists. We're not like therapeuticals. And so some
of the times stuff that our clients say like we
may have personally experienced with right, And it really is
a process of kind of learning how to separate your
stuff from your clients stuff so that you can be
there to support them. Doctor Orriowell, can you talk a
little bit about some of the mental health impact and
like what kinds of things future therapists need to be
(41:19):
aware of how to take care of themselves as they
also hold space for clients.
Speaker 4 (41:23):
I am a person that believes that proper self care
comes with great self knowledge.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
If you don't know yourself, it.
Speaker 4 (41:31):
Is very difficult to take care of yourself because you
don't know you well enough to know what you need.
Sometimes we learn by trial and error, but sometimes you know,
they say no, better, but we don't do better. Right,
We know better, but we don't change up what we're doing.
So one thing that I learned is that I had
to cap how many clients I was actually seeing in
a day and in a week. There was a magic
(41:54):
number where I felt good about what I was doing
and not overtaxed. I had to get some better bouts.
I was not emailing or looking at stuff, and had
a quiet time at the time that I needed it.
I don't like seeing morning clients first thing in the morning.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
I'm looking line.
Speaker 4 (42:10):
I'm not trying to talk to nobody at seven and
eight am, And yet some of these therapists out here
they be doing that. I'm like, that's your ministry, that's
not my ministry. So for me and for mine, the
day started at noon until recently, because now I'm like, oh,
I like a nine am every other Monday, not every
single Monday. But I use that knowledge of myself to
(42:33):
create a schedule that felt good for me and so
that I wasn't drained, And I definitely agree with what
you said. I'm a person first, so some of that
has been making sure that I'm actually properly fed and hydrated.
Some of it is making sure I'm appropriately rested, and
sometimes looking at the chaos. If there is chaos in
my life, I have to determine am I really in
(42:56):
the best position to be doing the work that I'm
doing right now to in this moment?
Speaker 2 (43:01):
Do I need to reschedule people? Do I need to
move people?
Speaker 4 (43:05):
So for me, I like seeing clients on Monday, and
I'm at a point in my practice now where I
only see Monday clients. I don't do therapy the rest
of the week. I cap my day at seven. Once
I start getting into that eight nine territory, don't feel
good no more. And after every two to three clients,
I have an hour break. So yeah, it might take
(43:27):
me the entire day to do the therapy day, but
I'm taking regular breaks for my mental and emotional wellbeing.
I talk to black women, so if something touches me
a little extra close, I modulate what I'm going to
say next, and I have to ask myself is this for.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
You or is it for them?
Speaker 4 (43:47):
I ask that question and that helps me every single time.
But I would also say that another way to simply
just modulate, And I'll give it with a baby story.
Back when I first started private practice, I took any
client that would have me. So I was seeing children,
I was seeing adults, I was seeing people of color,
I saw black people, I saw white people, right, I
(44:07):
was seeing everybody. And it wasn't until I niched that
I stopped feeling so drained. Because the point is I
didn't like working with kids. The kids were not the problem.
I didn't like that they came with parents. Didn't like
working with their parents because it required extra work and
extra energy that was often not paid for right, and
(44:28):
it felt like there was no real return other than
to say, hey, you keep.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
Undoing the work that I do in the therapy room with.
Speaker 4 (44:34):
Your kid, like, please stop. So I stopped seeing kids
because I knew that wasn't my ministry. I did not
want to spend an abundance of my day seeing white
folk and trying to get them to understand that you
saying the N word to me might lead to us
having to fight, right, Because in that moment I am
a therapist. I'm not your therapist. We go, we could
get down with the get down, call me a in
(44:55):
one more time. So I had to realize that I
needed to niche in. This is unpopular opinion in some way,
but I believe that my clients also pour into me
as I pour into them. I believe that there is
reciprocity there, and that the reciprocity does not come with
the payment, but it comes with how they show up
and see you as a person and you are seeing
(45:16):
them as a person. Right, the therapeutic relationship should be
a reciprocal relationship. It should still be mostly heavy sided
on one end, but it shouldn't feel like I'm a
dumping ground either. I do not do dumping ground therapy.
I am not your place to lay all your stuff
and leave. I'm a processing center, as in, you put
(45:37):
it down, We're gonna process it, but I'm gonna give
it back. That stuff is not mine and having to
make sure that I remember that it is not mine.
But niching down helped me to also feel a lot
less strained in doing this work.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Thank you for that. What about you, Josephine.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
This is a.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
Lesson that I am learning as I'm going along, because
I think that with getting all of these hours done,
I wanted to get them done as quickly as possible.
I did not want to be working on these hours
for years and years and years on end. So I
burned myself out getting those hours done. Colorado is one
(46:17):
of the few states where you can open a private
practice before you're fully licensed, as long as you have
a supervisor. So I was working in my private practice,
working in a bunch of different environments, seeing anyone, well
mostly anyone who would come in the door, because I
wanted to get those hours done. I highly recommend that
that not be the process, because once I got to
(46:40):
the LCSW, I was barely able to enjoy it because
I was so tired from what I had put myself
through in those last two years. So I think in
terms of not burning out or being able to make sure,
I definitely agree with doctor Donna that niching is so important,
(47:02):
and also knowing that just because someone else's client load
looks one way does not mean that it has to
look that way for you, especially in.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
The environment that I am in.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
I see some white clients, but they have to be
a really good fit for me, like they have to
really be feeding into the work that I do. And
I say straight up to my clients, if you say
anything racist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islam, if there's a phobic or
an ism at the end, you are not going to
(47:36):
work out because I have to protect my energy and
I have to protect my well being as a therapist
in order to be able to serve everyone else that's
on my caseload along with you. So I think for
black women who are coming into being therapists, there is
(47:56):
nothing wrong if you just want to see black women. Frankly,
if I could go back and do it all over again,
that's probably the way I would go back and do it.
I also think that there's a lot of worth in
being able to learn how to say no, not only
say no in terms of clients, being able to say no.
(48:17):
If you're working in an agency, or if you're in
a training and there's something that is actually harmful or
another professional says something that actually is more harmful than helpful,
being able to say that is not okay with me.
So I think that's how I protect a lot of
my energy now is by learning how to say no
(48:39):
and being able to hold that space and really prioritize
what's important to me. I find that teaching brings me
a lot of joy. Before being a therapist, that was
a teacher. So coming back in and teaching at the
graduate level, I find that brings me a lot of
peace and a lot of joy. So I'm going to
put more time into that then to put my time
(49:00):
into trying to fill up my caseload. So I would say,
especially if folks are working toward hours, like the hours
can't come before the mental health and the well being.
If it takes you two and a half years rather
than it taking two years, it takes you four years
rather than two years, that's fine because the hope is
that you're able to get to the finish line in
(49:22):
one piece and able to continue doing the work after
you've finished the hours. Because if you get to that
point where you're so burned out that you can't even
continue after the out, then what was then what was
the point of doing the thing? So I find that
(49:42):
a lot of times I have to remind myself that
it's not okay for me to burn myself out and
I'm worth taking care of to the point now where
I stick almost pretty strictly to fifty five minute sessions,
so that I have five minutes to go to the restroom,
grab a bite to eat, stand outside for a few
(50:05):
seconds before I come back in because I know as
a person I have to replenish myself. I can do
eight in a row. That's not a big problem for me,
but I need that forty minutes that is comprised into
those five minutes to be able to decompress, breathe before
I go into the next one.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
I want to think Josephine, doctor Apple White, doctor Jackson,
and doctor Oriole will once again for joining me for
these episodes. To learn more about the work that they're doing,
be sure to visit our show notes at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot Com Session three sixty six, and don't forget
to text this episode to two of your girls right
now and tell them to check it out. If you're
(50:49):
looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist
directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And
if you want to continue digging into this topic or
just be a community with others, come on over and
join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner
of the Internet design just for Black women. You can
join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com
(51:11):
and if you want to check out all the other
programming we have in store for Minority Mental Health Awareness Month,
visit the website at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash
mm HM. This episode was produced by Alice Ellis and
Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all
so much for joining me again this week. I look
(51:31):
forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
Take good care.
Speaker 2 (51:40):
What's
Popular Podcasts
1. Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
2. Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
3. Crime Junkie
If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people.