July 10, 2024 • 49 mins
Fans of The Read podcast have followed co-host Crissle’s journey as she went back to school in the hopes of becoming a therapist. Well, she’s graduated y’all, so of course it was only right to have her join us to talk a little bit about her journey and what advice she has for other aspiring therapists.
In case you’re unfamiliar with Crissle, she is half of the critically acclaimed comedy podcast The Read and her work has been featured in the Washington Post, ESSENCE, Slate, Buzzfeed, and several other media outlets. She considers meeting Beyoncé to be one of the most thrilling events of her life. During our conversation, we discuss the challenges of navigating grad school as a public figure, how to take care of yourself when working with clients triggers old wounds, and what Crissle hopes to do with her degree now that she’s graduated.
About the Podcast
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Join us in Atlanta on July 18th &19th for our Inaugural Therapist Summit. This is an incredible opportunity to gather to learn more about things like scaling your practice through PR and getting a book deal as a mental health professional. There will also be lots of time to connect with colleagues. Learn more and register to join us HERE.
Where to Find Crissle
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three sixty seven of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. Before we get into our conversation,
I'm excited to share that on Thursday, July eighteenth and
Friday July nineteenth, we'll be holding our inaugural Therapist Summit
in Atlanta. We're shining a light on our community of
therapists and all those who dedicated their careers to holding
space for others by gathering some of our favorite voices
(01:20):
in the field to share strategies for scaling your practice
and for some much needed networking in play. Visit Therapy
for Blackgirls dot com slash Healers to secure your ticket
and for more information. Now, let's hear a word from
our sponsors.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Hi, I'm Christal West and I'm on the Therapy for
Black Girls podcast. I'm in session today unpacking my journey
to becoming a therapist.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
This July, Therapy for Black Girls is bringing our yearly
Minority Mental Health Month celebration in person to Atlanta, Georgia.
Join us Thursday July eighteenth and Friday, July nineteenth as
we shine a light on mental health profits and all
those who dedicated their careers to holding space for others.
Our inaugural Holding Space for Healers Therapists Summit will gather
(02:08):
some of our favorite voices in the field for workshops, seminars,
and opportunities to connect. You don't want to miss this,
so secure your ticket to wellness by visiting Therapy for
Blackgirls dot com slash Healers. Fans of the Red podcast
have followed co host's Crystal's journey as she went back
(02:32):
to school in the hopes of becoming a therapist. Well,
she's graduated, y'all, so of course it was only right
to have her join us to talk a little bit
about her journey and what advice she has for other
aspiring therapists. In case you're unfamiliar with Crystal, she's a
TV and podcast personality whose work has been featured in
The Washington Post, Essence, Slate, BuzzFeed, and several other media outlets.
(02:56):
As mentioned, she's half of the critically acclaimed comedy podcast
To Read and considers meeting Beyonce to be one of
the most thrilling events of her life. In our conversation,
we discussed the challenges of navigating grad school as a
public figure, how to take care of yourself when working
with clients, triggers old wounds, and what she hopes to
(03:16):
do with her degree now that she's graduated. If something
resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with
us on social media using the hashtag tvg in session
or join us in the sister circle To talk more
about the episode. You can join us at community dot
therapy for Black Girls dot com. Here's our conversation, Chris, So,
(03:41):
thank you so much for joining us today. I'm so
so excited to chat with you.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Thank you for having me, doctor Joye and Honor.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Yes, it feels like such a full circle moment. So
congratulations on your recent graduation from your master's program. Look
at you, it's so so excited. So I know I
am not the only one who, of course, has been
a fan of yours from the read and just seeing
your trajectory and all the conversations about mental health that
(04:10):
you've had to see you come all the way around
to now being a therapist yourself. So I just would
love to hear how did you make the decision to
start a master's program? Is it in mental health counseling? Yes? Yeah,
So was it one particular letter like a reader like,
what started this trajectory?
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Well, I would say it was actually we were doing
a live show. It had to be five years ago
at this point. But one of the audience questions was
about going back to school, and I was like, oh, no,
of course, not not going back to school. And then
I thought about it and I was like, actually I
might go back to school. And I always said that
I wouldn't unless there was something I was really passionate
(04:52):
about or something I really wanted.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
To learn or do.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
But this just came to me immediately because of course,
or is finding my therapist through therapy for Black Girls
really changed my life and I just wanted to know
how she was able to do it. It's not like
talking to friends, it's not like prayer, Like this is
something different, and how did you do that to me? Like?
How did you teach me to change the way I
(05:18):
think about myself? So yes, decided to go for it,
and that's how we got here. But shout out to
whoever that was who asked me about going to school,
because immediately I was like, ugh, but it planted the
seed and so now here I am with a degree.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Wow, that is so incredible. And I know you and
Kifierry have talked so much about starting the podcast, and
you know it kind of just being two friends chatting,
but it really did turn into this thing that I
think made mental health more palatable for people to talk
about and like for people to be more honest. So
at what point or did this ever happen? Did the
(05:57):
two of you say like, Okay, we're gonna be open
and sharing our own mental health journey used to kind
of open the doors for other people? Did that ever happen?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
No, it wasn't like some conscious decision of let's talk
about it now. Kid Fury has been really open throughout
the years, and more so over the past couple of
years about his personal mental health struggles. And I was
one of those people who was like, I'm good, I
don't have no problems. Yeah, until I had a relationship
that ended very poorly that sent me to therapy and
that started my own awakening. That was maybe seven years
(06:30):
ago now. So when I started going to therapy, I
started talking bit by bit as I was ready to
talk about what I was learning on the show. But
it's never been like, Okay, we're a mental health podcast.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Now.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
We just are open about the ways in which we struggle.
And I think maybe that's what has resonated with so
many people, because a lot of people don't. They act
like they have nothing going on and there's no stress,
no depression, anxiety, any kind of mental illness, and we're like, no,
we are really struggling sometimes, where we still get up
(07:03):
and come to work like everybody else as much as
we possibly can, and try to be real with people
about what we're going through because we're not machines, and
it can sometimes feel like people expect us to just
be pop culture machines, just press a button and get
some hot takes out of us, but it doesn't work
like that. We're people and we're affected by our mental
health like everyone else.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
M h Yeah, I mean just so many compliments, and
I feel like I've told you some of this, but
I just feel like y'all have done such a beautiful
job modeling like humanity, right like on those weeks where
y'all feel like y'all just don't have it or we
need a mental health break, like we're just gonna be
gone for a while and we'll see y'all when we
catch up. I feel like y'all have done a really,
really beautiful job of just letting people know like it's
(07:46):
okay to not be okay and to check out, to
take care of yourself when you need to.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Yeah, it's kind of like practicing what you preach. It's
one of those things that's really easy to say, but
when it comes to you and your life, you're like, oh, no,
not me, though I'm not taking a break from my
mental health.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
It's crazy, but it's like, no, girl, yes, you you.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Too, Like you deserve that same consideration that you're so
ready and willing to give to others. So yeah, yes, yes,
So now on the other side of graduation. Tell me,
and I feel like all students have this, But what
do you wish you would have known about grad school
that you didn't know before you started? Just how intense
(08:24):
the practicum and internship was going to be, either that
or family systems. That class about family systems and therapy
for families, that was an extremely triggering class, and I
think the whole program really can be is kind of
like opening yourself up to revisiting your own past every
(08:48):
week in class. But just how attached I would grow
to my clients, and how hard it would be to
terminate with them, and how much I would learn about
myself while being a therapist, and how it can also
help with my own healing, although that's obviously not the goal.
Just relating to other people, showing them that same empathy,
(09:09):
realizing just how common some of our experiences are, how
much people really are not that different. I've seen clients
lots of different races, gender, sexualities, and a lot of
the stories are almost universal. So there was a lot
about the experience that I really I don't even think
(09:29):
anybody could have If somebody had warned me, I don't
think it would have been enough. It's one of those
things you have to go through to really know what
it's like.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yeah, I think that that is a very common experience
for people who like studying psychology and mental health, like
going through the DSM and diagnosing yourself with all these
things and it's like, oh, I definitely got this right.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Within arms reach. Yes, that I think. So, we only
had one class about diagnosis because it's not something that
at the master's level you are really focused on. But
there's definitely when you're going through all these disorders, you're like, now,
wait a minute, another one, Like come on, man, I
(10:12):
already feel like I'm all throughout this book.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
But yeah, that's definitely a big part of it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Yeah, to your point around like the family systems class,
I think that is why grad program but to have
such a focus on taking care of yourself as a
therapist because all of the stuff that you are then
holding for clients and learning about reawakens all of your
own stuff. Can you talk a little bit about how
you had to take extra care of yourself throughout the
(10:38):
training program kind of learning about all of these things.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yes, I was really really grateful for the amount of
support that I received as a grad student. And I
felt like, even in the moment, I could appreciate just
how much students need this kind of support because you
really don't know what you're getting into as a therapist. Thankfully,
for me, I had already been a client for several years,
(11:01):
so I had an idea of how it worked. But
some of my classmates had never been clients either, so
I think for them it was an even bigger learning curve.
But you take in other people's problems every day, and
I'm hearing horrible things, like some of the most horrific,
terrible things have happened to my clients, and so you
(11:23):
can't just sit there and hear back to back trauma, trauma,
trauma and not do something with it. So I was
very grateful to my supervisor at the clinic. He had
like a twenty four to seven policy, hit me up
anytime anything comes up, so I could always go to him.
To the other therapists and interns at the clinic, and
(11:44):
also within the program, all the instructors, it just was
this constant reminding us that in order to be the
most effective counsel you can, you have to take care
of yourself. You can't just take on other people's issues
and listen to this sort of thing all the time
and not do something with it. So one thing I
got into the habit of that I still do now
(12:06):
is after a day of seeing clients, just going on
a very long walk and just walking it out and
doing like these butterfly presses, this sort of thing to
soothe myself and like some sort of I don't know,
somatic stuff, just whatever I could to get that out because,
(12:26):
like I said, some of the things my clients told me,
it's just like this is horrific. I just have so
much empathy for therapist. I knew it was a big job,
but like, I only did it for eighteen months, and
towards the end of my program, I was like, Okay,
I'm burns out, like I need a break, and I've
only been an intern for a year and a half. Truly,
(12:48):
my hats off to therapists, because if I had to
implement all these self care measures, drinking less and exercising more,
that sort of thing. Journaling is another habit that I
got more consistent with and then just talking about it.
It was the sort of thing where you can't just
keep that to yourself, Go tell your supervisor go talk
to the other therapists you work with, talk to your professors,
(13:11):
talk to your classmates, get it out. So yeah, that
was a huge part of the program. They emphasized that
to us over and over again.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
And what kind of misconceptions about mental health do you
feel like you had that were then cleared up by
your studies.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Well, I think probably the biggest one maybe not a misconception,
but I think I just did not really have an
understanding of how common all of this is. Like I
used to think that I was just this anomaly and
I was the most messed up person in the world,
and nobody had ever been as emotionally distraught as I have.
(13:47):
And then I get to school and I'm like, oh, girl,
you are a case study. You are literally textbook. There
is nothing exceptional about this at all. You are a DSM,
like you're right there. So there was that, And then
I guess with some of the other disorders, like personality disorders,
mental illnesses, that sort of thing. I think that's one
thing that the media gets wrong a lot, is depictions
(14:08):
of bipolar borderline what is mania? And it's something that
social media is not necessarily helping with because there's a
lot of mental health influencers out there who are just
saying whatever, and I had to This is veering off
topic a little, but I can't tell you how many
times I had clients come to session and say I
was watching this TikTok and I found out that people
(14:30):
pleasing means I'm actually a manipulator and I'm abusive, and
I'm like, okay, wait.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
Wait, wait wait, TikTokers can really be a problem in
that way.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
So yes, I think having a greater understanding of what
some of the more taboo, less accepted, less understood mental illnesses,
what that constitutes of, and the effect that that has
on the client, and trying to fight the huge amounts
of misinformation that are available on the internet.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
So this is very interesting because I feel like you're
probably the newest therapist that we've had on the podcast,
and so I'm really curious to hear. Okay, what are
the graduate programs or maybe your programs just specifically, since
you probably can only talk about that one. What kinds
of things are they teaching you about clients coming in
with social media stuff? Are like the impact of social
media on the clinical relationship? What kinds of conversations are
(15:21):
training programs having about that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
It wasn't part of the curriculum. I think it was
just something that came up because we're all on social,
our clients are all on social, and I don't know
that I got specific guidance about talking to clients about
social media. I just developed my own approach of I'm
very much person centered empathy first, trying to understand where
(15:46):
you're coming from, but also a gentle correction, a gentle redirecting.
And for me it was I'm obviously not going to
tell my clients take TikTok off your phone, but I
would say, if you're looking at mental health content on TikTok,
click through to that person's profile. Do they call themselves
a therapist? That's a very specific word that not everybody
(16:07):
can use. Do they list their degree, do they tell
you whether they're licensed? Or is this just somebody putting
out whatever they think will earn them a few dollars
through ad revenue. So that was the way that I approached,
especially with my clients and their teens and twenties, really
heavy emphasis on social media. But I can't say that
the program really prepared us for that. It was just
(16:29):
a lot of get ready because TikTok is out there,
and your clients are going to come to you with
something they've seen on TikTok.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Yeah, and that is not a new conversation. Lots of
therapists are having that same conversation about, you know, like
how do you talk with clients about what they see
on social media and whether there's some truth to it,
and like let's talk more about what you saw kind
of thing.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
I had one client in particular who was just really
big on TikTok, and so I would tell her anytime
you see something that has you thinking these things or
questioning something about yourself, bring that to session, you know,
or text me the link to the TikTok if you
want to, and I can tell you what I think
they got right and what I think they got wrong,
or how this is very general advice and so it
(17:11):
doesn't apply to you. That's another thing about social media,
which I think is great that there are so many
therapists out there talking about these things. But everybody puts
that disclaimer of this is not a substitute for your
own relationship with a mental health professional, because the information
on social media has to be generalized it has to
be this is what such and such can look like
(17:36):
in order for it to mean anything, like, we can't
talk about you in particular you this one user, because
we don't know you. And so just because you see
yourself in this graphic on Instagram does not necessarily mean
that you have this disorder either. So it really is
important to go talk to somebody. But it's kind of
like raising awareness, getting people to see that something could
(17:56):
be wrong in the first place, because if you don't
have that awareness, there's nowhere to go from there.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
So so you've shared a little bit about this on
the read, but I'm really curious to know more about
how you navigated the program as a public figure, because
I feel like when we hear like public figures like
going back to school, like it's usually something like law
school or advertising or journalistic, it feels like this is
a very different kind of program to navigate with somebody
(18:22):
who is a public figure. I mean, I feel like
I've heard you say like your classmates didn't necessarily know
who you were, So talk to me about like how
you navigated that, and like what kinds of boundaries you
needed to set to protect yourself.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Ah, well, I was very nervous. I'll say this. I
was so scared that I would be recognized. And actually
every semester I did get recognized by one person in
each class, but they wouldn't say anything until like maybe
the middle of the semester or at the very end.
One classmate wore the Reads T shirt like wore our
(18:56):
merch and I was like, Okay, you ain't have to
do that, you ain't have to do that. But the
people who did recognize me were very low key about it,
very cool. Even at graduation, a girl came up to
me and was like, congrats, and I was like, I
just need you to not tell nobody. Just don't tell
nobody until the ceremony is over, because I really wanted
(19:20):
to do this program anonymously. I did not want Crystal
or the Read This entertainment industry side of it to
be a part of it, because I took this so seriously,
like I know what it means to have a really
great therapist, and I wanted to try to be that
for other people and learn as much as I possibly could.
And I just did not want my job to infiltrate
(19:43):
any aspect of it at all. So I was very deliberate.
I did have a couple of close calls with Sometimes
clients would be like, oh, I was just watching Insecure
and I saw that they have a recap podcast, and I'm.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
Like, I wouldn't listen to that.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Or they would like name drop people that I've worked
with and I'm like, oh, wow, that's so interesting. And
one time my supervisor even said that he was thinking
of starting a podcast, and I was like, well, I
don't know much about that, but.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Good lush, it sounds great.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Just lying, but it was a necessary lie. Yes, I couldn't.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
I couldn't. I can't believe that.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
I mean because the Read is such a huge podcast,
Like it feels like there needed to almost be something
in place to kind of screen your clients.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
So it just happens.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Ace worked out that none of your clients had any
knowledge of who you were or what you did for work.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yes, wow, And I don't know how I got that
fortunate because most of my clients were black women, and
so I was quite nervous. I was quite nervous. But no,
none of them recognized me. None of my coworkers recognized me.
Just a small handful of classmates, maybe four or five classmates,
and that was it, so I know I was knocking
(21:03):
on wood the whole time. I think what saved me
is that the read is not a video podcast, so
even as long as we've been around, our faces don't
get passed around social media that much, so maybe people
don't really know what we look like. I think that
is my saving grace. But I knew if that one
person listened to that Insecure, I said, oh no, you
can't do that.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
Thankfully, I was just like, oh, yeah, Insecure, that's a
great show.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Tell me about the episode that you were about, you know,
trying to readirect But thankfully, either she never listened, or
she's listened after.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
We've terminated, so it's not my business no more.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
That is incredible. I just knew that they had put
some stuff in place for you so that you like,
didn't have clients who knew you or any of that,
so they just looked out that way. No, I'm very
grateful for New York City being as huge as it
is and nine million people, everybody's not gonna know who.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Chrystal is, Thankfully.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Thankfully, because I was quite nervous about that, I really
was so talk.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
To me about any difficulty you had besides keeping your
fingers crossed that nobody would recognize you were there. Anything
you had trouble navigating continuing to host the read and
being in grad school at the same time.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Not really.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Maybe the biggest issue would sometimes just be I just
got out of a session with a client telling me
about their trauma, and then twenty minutes later I have
to go record the show, So it's like I don't
have a lot of time to try to shake that
off and get into the mode of joking around and
having fun. But other than that, No, the show didn't
really conflict with school very much or vice versa. Very
(22:34):
grateful that we were able to change the days we
record or whatever based off my class schedule. So yes,
I took the program extremely seriously. And so even when
I would make references to school on the show or
talk in very general terms about a client, it was
always this like, let me be very careful to not
(22:57):
break confidentiality, let me be very careful about privacy. And
that was not a joke from me at all, And
so yes, took all that extremely seriously.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yeah, I don't think you even ever mentioned the name
of the school you were attending all the specific program.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
No, I did not. No, I did not.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
I did that on purpose. People asked all the time,
and I would be like to do pretend I don't
see that. I'm not telling y'all where I go, and
I'm not telling y'all because I do not want y'all
to find me. I want to do this as my
own self, Doctor Joe.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
You just don't know. I used to be so nervous.
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
I'm very grateful that it's all official now, the degree
is conferred, it's done. I don't think I'll risk anything
like that again.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
But yeah, more.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
From our conversation after the break, But first, a quick
snippet of what's coming next week on TVG.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
In personal relationships, I do notice this dynamic online as well, though,
that when therapists show up and have problems with certain
things or feel annoyed by stuff, there's a sense that like,
you shouldn't have quote unquote the negative feelings you're a therapist,
or you shouldn't struggle with things because you're a therapist.
And I literally have had people in my personal life say,
but you know how to get out of that, you
(24:15):
know how to not feel that. So I don't even
really understand how you could feel anxious about this or
how you could feel upset about this because you can
work yourself out of it. It feels really dehumanizing when
people do that, and they quite literally don't understand that
we cannot work on ourselves in that way.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Why do friendship breakups sometimes hurt more than romantic ones?
How do I make friends in a new city? Is
it true that women can't actually be good friends to
one another. I'm exploring all of these questions and so
much more in my book, Sisterhood Heels, now available in
paperback at your local independent bookstore or at sisterhood Heels
(24:58):
dot Com for you and your girls, and let's talk
about it. So you in part of your support circle.
Friend and doctor Kia and Jaye joined me on the
Sisterhood Heels booked to her last summer, which I was
so grateful for. But can you talk to me about
(25:19):
your support system and how that was instrumental in you
kind of completing grads?
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Yes, I really do not know where I would be
without my friends. They are such a huge support for me,
always encouraging me, because there were lots of times where
I was like I think I would like to drop out.
What am I even doing? I'm not gonna take this
degree and then go be a therapist. I'm not gonna
quit the read So why am I doing this? So
(25:45):
I'm stressing myself out? And they were just always especially
Kia because Kia has like eight degrees, So Kia was
always just like, I know you can do this. I
know it's hard, but you are doing such an incredible job.
I'm really so proud of you. And yes, the three of
them and really all of my friends just made me
(26:06):
feel so loved, supported, cared for a while I was
going through this degree. And yeah, I mean literally more
of a support than my family. So I really do
not know where I would be without those people.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
So what was some of the moments that made you
feel like I want to drop out? Is anything in
particular coming to mind? I feel like most grad students
have that experience, right, But is there anything more than
others that made you feel like I don't know if
I want to do this well?
Speaker 2 (26:32):
And this is my fault. I didn't take breaks. I
started my practicum in January of one year, and I
worked all the through that semester, and then I worked
all that summer, no credits, no money, just kept working
because I thought it would be best for my clients,
(26:53):
and then went right into internship that fall. Stayed at
the same clinics, so I kept my same clients, didn't
take a winter break that month, were supposed to get
off five six weeks, didn't do that either, and then
worked all again. So it was like I didn't take
the breaks that a grad student is supposed to take.
And I think around that one year mark, I was like, Okay,
(27:16):
I am getting kind of exhausted. It was really this
last semester where I was like, y'all, I don't know
what it is about being able to see the finish line,
but I don't want to cross it. Like I could
just stop right here right now, and I would be
okay with that. Like I think I'm just worn out.
I'm burned out. I'm tired of school and the pressure.
This is a job that I take much more seriously
(27:39):
because being a therapist is a position of power and
it was just so important to me that I honor
the therapeutic relationship, that I show up as the best
possible therapist I could be, even as an intern. So
I'm taking it very seriously. But I'm also not taking
any breaks, and I'm putting a lot of pressure showing
(28:00):
myself to be my best. And so yeah, I was.
I was worn out. I was quite worn out. But
I think it's just regular senioritists. It's a lot of
responsibility in being a therapist, and I have a pretty
responsibility light life. I wanted these plants every couple weeks
and that's about it. So having this legal, moral, ethical
(28:22):
obligation to these people was a huge shift for me,
and I was ready to go back to my responsibility
light life. Were there any conversations with supervisors about like, hey,
we think you need a break, like you have not
taken any breaks, like, was there any encouragement from supervisor? No, no,
no no. They said, if you feel like it, go
(28:44):
right ahead. If you feel up for it, go right ahead.
And so I did take two weeks towards the end
of the year for you know, Christmas and New Year's.
I did that just this past year.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
But that was it.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Otherwise I was working all the way through and maybe
somebody should have said, hey, don't see clients. Maybe somebody
should have put their foot down about that, but they agreed,
and the school kind of was the same way with
it's up to you if you want to work throughout
the summer. If I were you, I wouldn't, but that's
your decision to make. And so I thought it was
(29:20):
best for my clients that we not spend a whole
summer apart. But I wasn't really thinking about what was
best for me. Not that it was the end of
the world or anything, but you need a break. And
one of the things I noticed with my own therapist
before twenty twenty, she like, never took a break. We
had our little week or so at the end of
(29:41):
the year, and that was it once the pandemic hit.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
This lady is like okay, bye. She was like, yeah,
I'm going on vacation, see you in two weeks. I'm like, copy,
I got it. I love that she started modeling, like
oh yeah, actually, I need a break from this. This
is a lot, This is a lot of stress. So
I really don't know how therapists did in it, because
in twenty twenty I was just a student and not
(30:07):
even I don't think I had even started the program
yet then, So I really don't know how therapists held
it down. When the pandemic first hit because the stress
had to be through the roof as individuals and also
for your clients. And so starting in twenty twenty, she
was like, okay, now you say that, I'm thinking about
my own therapist. She also started traveling much more, like
(30:31):
long stints away and I mean, and we had conversations
about it, like her needing to kind of dig deeper,
and like the things that you were usually doing to
kind of manage weren't available to you anymore, and so
people had to kind of re route their whole kind
of coping strategies.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
Was meant being maybe more extreme in figuring.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Out how to take care of yourself so you could
take care of all of the problems. We were coming
to them right right, right.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
So I've never talked to her about that. It's very
much like that is my therapist, and I don't ask
her about her personal life or what she's doing. But
it was definitely something I noticed, like you never took
breaks before. And now I won't say all the time,
but maybe once a quarter or once every six months
she'll be like, yeah, I'm taking a break, and like
that is very reasonable, there's nothing wrong with that at all.
(31:18):
So yeah, yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
So you mentioned on the show before about like your
perfectionism and that showing up in other places, and of course,
I mean even in hearing you talking about client care
now I can hear some of the like perfectionistic kinds
of things. Can you talk a little bit about how
you navigated that, maybe with a supervisor or in your
own therapy, to think about like how that then impacted
you clinically.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Yeah, I think most of that processing happened in my
own therapy because I've noticed that supervisors tend to love perfectionists.
I've never had a supervisor to be like, you should
chill out and not be so great. I've never had
anybody say that, but you know, realizing the harm in
my perfectionistic ways. It's definitely something that I uncovered while
(32:01):
working with my own therapist, and I remember what shifted
for me was her providing this understanding that being a
perfectionist is not necessarily like, oh, I do everything perfectly,
like I refuse to have anything not be perfect. It's
more like realistic things are not the goal. The goal
(32:24):
is perfection, and you don't have a realistic understanding of
what things should be or how things should look. It's
more like if I get a ninety eight on a test,
I'm stressing out over the two points I missed, instead
of celebrating the ninety eight that I didn't miss. So
something about that whole conversation with her it made me
(32:44):
understand that my standards weren't realistic, and that was what
was causing all the distress for me, because there's no
reason for a person to be stressed out over a
ninety eight on an exam. But that was the kind
of person that I was. So her psycho education helped
a lot, and that was one thing I really learned
about school and loved so much about it, was going
(33:08):
to class and being like, that's what you did. I
see what you did, Like, oh, I see your ways?
Speaker 3 (33:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
How did that impact your relationship with your therapist after
you had more of those classes and you could figure
out what she was doing.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
I don't know if she noticed the difference in me,
but I remember at first coming to session almost as
if it was like a mock session, almost as if
I'm trying to give what I think is the right response,
and then she's gonna say this, and then I'm gonna
try to respond in a therapy type of way, and
(33:48):
then I let that go very quickly like no, no, no,
still the client and still just want to be like,
why am I taking on the role of the therapist.
Why am I doing that? You're not the therapist here,
and I'm not sure trying to respond in the therapeutic, mindful,
evidence based way. I'm just the client and I can
be messy and complicated and not always make sense, and
(34:09):
this is my space to do that. So I am
curious if she noticed any changes in me as a
client after I started the program, But like I said,
I don't talk to her about like her life or
anything to do with that at all, so I'll probably
never know.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
So you've been very clear that your intention was not
necessarily to get this degree to practice, which I find fascinating,
and so I want to hear more about that and
how you do plan to then use degree. Is it
just something that you're going to have just for knowledge sake?
Tell me more about that.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Well, that was the point I literally was like, how
did you do this? I want to know how you
did this? And so now I know, now I understand
how she did it. What I'm going to do with
the degree is really the million dollar question. The obvious, Oh,
start a mental health podcast is like right there. But
also I don't really know that that's needed from me.
(35:06):
I feel like there are lots of great voices in
that space already, especially yours, and so I'm like, I
don't really know if that's what I feel called to do.
But being a therapist is very hard work, and being
an entertainment podcaster is not anywhere near as hard, Like,
not anywhere near as hard. Being a therapist is a
lot of labor, and like I said, a lot of responsibility.
(35:28):
Even as an intern, I felt the weight of the
responsibility as a therapist. So I think very quickly I realized, like,
this is great. I'm glad I have this education. I
love that I have a master's degree now to fall
on if.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
I need one.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
But I would much rather, you know, make fun of Drake.
I would much rather, you know, make fun of Drake
and then have listener letters come in where people us
questions and I kept saying, I want to graduate, go
back to being a hoorad. I don't think I can
really ever fully go back to the way I used
(36:06):
to be. I think the education is always in the
back of my mind informing my thoughts, behaviors, actions, and
things I say. So I'm fine with using it in
that way and maybe finding other avenues. I'm still trying
to figure out exactly what I'm gonna do with the degree,
but I'm sure it will be integrated into my work somehow.
(36:27):
But leaving entertainment to go be a therapist full time,
I don't, especially because then it really would become an
issue of clients recognizing me. That would really and I
have had to tell so many listeners I am not
going to be your therapist. There is no sign up sheet,
there is no no, no, no, no no. You all
know way too much about me. You're not supposed to
(36:48):
know this much about your therapist at all. You know
too much about me, my life, my family, my opinions.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
None of that is your business.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
So I talk a little bit more about that because
I think earlier you made the point about like talking
to your therapist is not like talking to your friend,
not like talking to your past or like it's very different.
But I do think because so many people love you
and they hear your thoughts like every week, it's like, oh,
I really want her to be my therapist. Can you
talk about why it would be a bad idea for
you to just have a sign up sheet for people
(37:21):
to then become your client?
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Oh man, Well, first of all, because I think some
of y'all would show up just to be like, oh
my god, Crystal, I love you so much.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
I'm like, that's not what we're here for.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
But also, I think the thing that gave me so
much pause and still does is the idea that a
client will modify what they say or not be fully
honest or omit certain things because they know how I
feel about like my dad, for example, or a strained
relationship with my mother, or you know, any number of
(37:54):
things that I've talked about been open about on the show.
I didn't and still don't want client to know these
things about me and be like, Okay, well maybe I
shouldn't talk about how great my dad is, or maybe
if I talk about X y Z about my mom
that'll upset her. Things like that, you're not supposed to
be thinking about my feelings. This time is really about you.
(38:15):
And so the idea that a client would come to
therapy and not be fully honest about what was going
on because they know or they think they know how
I might feel or how I might react. It's like,
you're just not supposed to know these things about me.
What if I talked really bad about Drake and Drake
is your cousin, Like you know, it could be anything,
(38:38):
but yeah, it was especially the idea that people would
adjust what they bring to therapy based off how they
think I would respond to them, Like, no, I do
not want you to do that. And also, you're getting
Crystal that you see for two hours or less on
a podcast every week. But that is not the entirety
of me. And even the things you know about me
(38:59):
are only things I've told you.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
But still it's too much.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
It's been eleven years now of content of me being
open about my life and yeah, unfortunately y'all just know
too much about me.
Speaker 3 (39:11):
For me to be a therapist.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
More from our conversation after the break, Yeah, and I
really appreciate you sharing that because I think that that
is one of the misconceptions and that people don't really
understand the power balance, imbalance and the dynamics that happen.
(39:34):
There's so much we are holding in any given session
that you knowing so much about your therapist, even if
it's not conscious. You are thinking through like, oh, did
I hear Crystal say something about that? Maybe I need
to modify what I'm saying or I can't say this
because what if it ends up as a listener letter?
Like there are all these things that you may not
even be conscious of that then impact the therapeutic relationship. Yeah,
(39:58):
from the beginning, I knew that a listener could not
be a client, and so I was just constantly praying,
just please do not let a listener show up. And
I thank God because it worked out for me in
that way. But I knew from the beginning that would
be a bad idea. I don't need you going on
TikTok being like a Christly is my therapist. And this
is what she said. But I wonder if you are
(40:26):
aware because I have been able to kind of track
the way you respond in listener letters now versus the
first year of the ready Are you conscious of how
that has impacted, like your clinical training has impacted the
way you listened or respond to letters.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Absolutely, I think you can really tell the difference. Even
starting from when I started therapy, the way I started
responding to people shifted, but definitely once I got into
the program, it really expanded my empathy and my understanding
that really we're all dealing with something and none of
(41:06):
us are this blank slate where nothing bad ever happened
to us and there was never any trauma or anything
like that. People are coming at life from their own
experiences and operating out of their own understanding, and so
there's a lot more patience now with the letters. I
think there's actually even a little less of the breakup
(41:27):
with him. We used to automatically go to break up
with him, and there's a little more understanding now, a
little more Well, maybe have this conversation or consider this
other thing, but don't take breaking up with him off
the table.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
So it's always always, it's.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Always an option, like you might be trying a little
too hard to make this work.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
So what advice would you give to other people who
are maybe considering going back to school or considering starting
a program to become a therapist. I think my number
one piece of advice would be to go to therapy first.
I can't believe it's not a requirement to go to
therapy in order to get this degree, but it's not
every now and then classmates would say something or ask
a question, and I would just think if you had
(42:14):
been a client, you would know the answer to this.
I just think you need to know what it's like
to be on the other side of this dynamic. And
also you probably have some things you need to work
through with a therapist, like you. Sometimes classmates are talking
about like, well, how do I figure out my blah
blah blah or how do I determine this? And it's like, Oh,
(42:35):
you need to go talk to your own therapists, what
do you mean. I think that's probably the number one
thing you need is to know what it's like to
be a client before you decide to go be a therapist.
And also, you know, consider just being a client, like
it's cheaper and a lot less work. But one thing
(42:56):
I was always super mindful of was counter transference in
any possible counter transference happening with me. Is especially because
I had one client in particular who it was like
I was staring at my twenty five year old self,
and so I had to be so mindful constantly with
this person that I was not responding to her as
(43:19):
if she were me, that I was not talking to
her or trying to guide her as if it were
the things I needed to hear, but like being very
clear and remaining very mindful, like this is a separate person,
her own life, her own circumstances, And I think that's
another thing that maybe you're not prepared for or you
don't think about before you start the program. It's like, oh,
(43:41):
what if these people say something that triggers me or
reminds me of my own upbringing, Like yeah, just really
staying mindful of occurrences like that. Not even just with
younger clients. I also had older clients of my parents generation,
and sometimes talking to them would bring up those same things,
like you are really reminded me of my mother right now,
(44:03):
or it's giving my dad right now, but you know,
remaining in a therapist's place and responding to the client
and not to my own trigger or whatever was brought
up in me. So be aware before you start this program. Then,
working with clients, you will almost certainly work with somebody
(44:24):
who brings up something deep within you, and you have
to know how to handle that, how to manage that.
It's not something you can avoid entirely, but it is
something that you can handle. You just have to be
ready for it and aware.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
I've heard you say on the read that some of
your gen Z clients were kind of like your favorites,
like you really really enjoyed.
Speaker 3 (44:41):
Working with them.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
What's so special about then, What did you love most
about working with that population in particular?
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Oh, my goodness. Well, first of all, they are so fun.
They're slang Like sometimes I would just, you know, give
an intervention or something like that, an interpretation or whatever,
and my client would be like, you know.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
What, I hate that. It's just like they are fun
in that way.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
It's just such a great time this sort of late teens,
early to mid twenties, it's just such a great time
to be in therapy. I found that they were some
of the most enthusiastic clients, Like they really wanted to
understand why they do things a certain way, or why
they're feeling things, why they feel stuck in a certain
(45:27):
pattern or whatever. So it's definitely the intensity the intentionality
that they brought to therapy. But then also they are
just fun. Like every gen Z client I had asked
me what my sign was, Nobody else but gen Z
would be like, you know, you're big three. I'm like,
(45:47):
I sure do girl, And what about it? They talk about,
you know, things like astrology and TikTok and they're you know,
they're fun. So I just really loved working with them
younger population really did.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
So.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
Is there anything that you feel like you learned about
your own mental health through grad school that we have
not touched on yet.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
I think, just going back to what I said earlier
about being an actual case study, like a literal textbook example,
I think maybe that is what I learned is that
I am not special damaged snowflake. This is what happens
to people who have been emotionally mistreated. This is quite
(46:31):
literally what can happen to a person.
Speaker 3 (46:33):
You know.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
I just always thought I was so messed up, But
I actually responded in a very textbook way to the
things that happened to me. I was not so messed
up and so far gone and such an anomaly for
what happened to me. I was right in the middle
of the norm for the people that that has happened to.
So it just gave me a lot more peace of mind,
(46:56):
I guess, because I had always felt so different. There's
been lots of times in every where I'm like, maybe
I am just too messed up, and maybe I just
cannot get to a place of being okay, being happy.
Some people are too far gone and maybe I'm one
of those people. And I think it definitely helped with like, yes,
this is hard, it is, but this is not impossible
for you.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
Well, thank you so much for sharing all of this, Crystal.
It has just been such a delight to follow your
journey and again just celebrate you and your graduation. Just
such a cool experience. So thank you for spending some
time with us today. Let people know if they don't already,
how can they stay connected with you to everything happening
with the Read, the website, as well as any social
media handles you want to share.
Speaker 3 (47:38):
Okay, well, yes, you.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
Can find me every week on the Read, available on
all podcasting platforms. We're at this is the Read across
social media, and you can find me on Instagram at Crystal.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
That's cri ssl E beautiful. Be sure to include all
of that in the show notes. Thank you so much, Crystal,
Thank you, doctor Joy. I'm so glad Chryssel was able
to join me for this conversation to learn more about
her and the work she's doing. Be shure to visited
the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot Com slash
(48:11):
Session three sixty seven, and don't forget to text this
episode to two of your girls right now and encourage
them to check it out. If you're looking for a
therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy
for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you want
to continue digging into this topic or just be in
community with other sisters, come on over and join us
(48:33):
in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the
Internet designed just for black women. You can join us
at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode
was produced by Elise Ellis and Zaria Taylor. Editing was
done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining
me again this week. I look forward to continuing this
conversation with you all real soon. Take care
Speaker 3 (49:00):
What
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three sixty seven of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. Before we get into our conversation,
I'm excited to share that on Thursday, July eighteenth and
Friday July nineteenth, we'll be holding our inaugural Therapist Summit
in Atlanta. We're shining a light on our community of
therapists and all those who dedicated their careers to holding
space for others by gathering some of our favorite voices
(01:20):
in the field to share strategies for scaling your practice
and for some much needed networking in play. Visit Therapy
for Blackgirls dot com slash Healers to secure your ticket
and for more information. Now, let's hear a word from
our sponsors.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Hi, I'm Christal West and I'm on the Therapy for
Black Girls podcast. I'm in session today unpacking my journey
to becoming a therapist.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
This July, Therapy for Black Girls is bringing our yearly
Minority Mental Health Month celebration in person to Atlanta, Georgia.
Join us Thursday July eighteenth and Friday, July nineteenth as
we shine a light on mental health profits and all
those who dedicated their careers to holding space for others.
Our inaugural Holding Space for Healers Therapists Summit will gather
(02:08):
some of our favorite voices in the field for workshops, seminars,
and opportunities to connect. You don't want to miss this,
so secure your ticket to wellness by visiting Therapy for
Blackgirls dot com slash Healers. Fans of the Red podcast
have followed co host's Crystal's journey as she went back
(02:32):
to school in the hopes of becoming a therapist. Well,
she's graduated, y'all, so of course it was only right
to have her join us to talk a little bit
about her journey and what advice she has for other
aspiring therapists. In case you're unfamiliar with Crystal, she's a
TV and podcast personality whose work has been featured in
The Washington Post, Essence, Slate, BuzzFeed, and several other media outlets.
(02:56):
As mentioned, she's half of the critically acclaimed comedy podcast
To Read and considers meeting Beyonce to be one of
the most thrilling events of her life. In our conversation,
we discussed the challenges of navigating grad school as a
public figure, how to take care of yourself when working
with clients, triggers old wounds, and what she hopes to
(03:16):
do with her degree now that she's graduated. If something
resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with
us on social media using the hashtag tvg in session
or join us in the sister circle To talk more
about the episode. You can join us at community dot
therapy for Black Girls dot com. Here's our conversation, Chris, So,
(03:41):
thank you so much for joining us today. I'm so
so excited to chat with you.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Thank you for having me, doctor Joye and Honor.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Yes, it feels like such a full circle moment. So
congratulations on your recent graduation from your master's program. Look
at you, it's so so excited. So I know I
am not the only one who, of course, has been
a fan of yours from the read and just seeing
your trajectory and all the conversations about mental health that
(04:10):
you've had to see you come all the way around
to now being a therapist yourself. So I just would
love to hear how did you make the decision to
start a master's program? Is it in mental health counseling? Yes? Yeah,
So was it one particular letter like a reader like,
what started this trajectory?
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Well, I would say it was actually we were doing
a live show. It had to be five years ago
at this point. But one of the audience questions was
about going back to school, and I was like, oh, no,
of course, not not going back to school. And then
I thought about it and I was like, actually I
might go back to school. And I always said that
I wouldn't unless there was something I was really passionate
(04:52):
about or something I really wanted.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
To learn or do.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
But this just came to me immediately because of course,
or is finding my therapist through therapy for Black Girls
really changed my life and I just wanted to know
how she was able to do it. It's not like
talking to friends, it's not like prayer, Like this is
something different, and how did you do that to me? Like?
How did you teach me to change the way I
(05:18):
think about myself? So yes, decided to go for it,
and that's how we got here. But shout out to
whoever that was who asked me about going to school,
because immediately I was like, ugh, but it planted the
seed and so now here I am with a degree.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Wow, that is so incredible. And I know you and
Kifierry have talked so much about starting the podcast, and
you know it kind of just being two friends chatting,
but it really did turn into this thing that I
think made mental health more palatable for people to talk
about and like for people to be more honest. So
at what point or did this ever happen? Did the
(05:57):
two of you say like, Okay, we're gonna be open
and sharing our own mental health journey used to kind
of open the doors for other people? Did that ever happen?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
No, it wasn't like some conscious decision of let's talk
about it now. Kid Fury has been really open throughout
the years, and more so over the past couple of
years about his personal mental health struggles. And I was
one of those people who was like, I'm good, I
don't have no problems. Yeah, until I had a relationship
that ended very poorly that sent me to therapy and
that started my own awakening. That was maybe seven years
(06:30):
ago now. So when I started going to therapy, I
started talking bit by bit as I was ready to
talk about what I was learning on the show. But
it's never been like, Okay, we're a mental health podcast.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Now.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
We just are open about the ways in which we struggle.
And I think maybe that's what has resonated with so
many people, because a lot of people don't. They act
like they have nothing going on and there's no stress,
no depression, anxiety, any kind of mental illness, and we're like, no,
we are really struggling sometimes, where we still get up
(07:03):
and come to work like everybody else as much as
we possibly can, and try to be real with people
about what we're going through because we're not machines, and
it can sometimes feel like people expect us to just
be pop culture machines, just press a button and get
some hot takes out of us, but it doesn't work
like that. We're people and we're affected by our mental
health like everyone else.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
M h Yeah, I mean just so many compliments, and
I feel like I've told you some of this, but
I just feel like y'all have done such a beautiful
job modeling like humanity, right like on those weeks where
y'all feel like y'all just don't have it or we
need a mental health break, like we're just gonna be
gone for a while and we'll see y'all when we
catch up. I feel like y'all have done a really,
really beautiful job of just letting people know like it's
(07:46):
okay to not be okay and to check out, to
take care of yourself when you need to.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Yeah, it's kind of like practicing what you preach. It's
one of those things that's really easy to say, but
when it comes to you and your life, you're like, oh, no,
not me, though I'm not taking a break from my
mental health.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
It's crazy, but it's like, no, girl, yes, you you.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Too, Like you deserve that same consideration that you're so
ready and willing to give to others. So yeah, yes, yes,
So now on the other side of graduation. Tell me,
and I feel like all students have this, But what
do you wish you would have known about grad school
that you didn't know before you started? Just how intense
(08:24):
the practicum and internship was going to be, either that
or family systems. That class about family systems and therapy
for families, that was an extremely triggering class, and I
think the whole program really can be is kind of
like opening yourself up to revisiting your own past every
(08:48):
week in class. But just how attached I would grow
to my clients, and how hard it would be to
terminate with them, and how much I would learn about
myself while being a therapist, and how it can also
help with my own healing, although that's obviously not the goal.
Just relating to other people, showing them that same empathy,
(09:09):
realizing just how common some of our experiences are, how
much people really are not that different. I've seen clients
lots of different races, gender, sexualities, and a lot of
the stories are almost universal. So there was a lot
about the experience that I really I don't even think
(09:29):
anybody could have If somebody had warned me, I don't
think it would have been enough. It's one of those
things you have to go through to really know what
it's like.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yeah, I think that that is a very common experience
for people who like studying psychology and mental health, like
going through the DSM and diagnosing yourself with all these
things and it's like, oh, I definitely got this right.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Within arms reach. Yes, that I think. So, we only
had one class about diagnosis because it's not something that
at the master's level you are really focused on. But
there's definitely when you're going through all these disorders, you're like, now,
wait a minute, another one, Like come on, man, I
(10:12):
already feel like I'm all throughout this book.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
But yeah, that's definitely a big part of it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Yeah, to your point around like the family systems class,
I think that is why grad program but to have
such a focus on taking care of yourself as a
therapist because all of the stuff that you are then
holding for clients and learning about reawakens all of your
own stuff. Can you talk a little bit about how
you had to take extra care of yourself throughout the
(10:38):
training program kind of learning about all of these things.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yes, I was really really grateful for the amount of
support that I received as a grad student. And I
felt like, even in the moment, I could appreciate just
how much students need this kind of support because you
really don't know what you're getting into as a therapist. Thankfully,
for me, I had already been a client for several years,
(11:01):
so I had an idea of how it worked. But
some of my classmates had never been clients either, so
I think for them it was an even bigger learning curve.
But you take in other people's problems every day, and
I'm hearing horrible things, like some of the most horrific,
terrible things have happened to my clients, and so you
(11:23):
can't just sit there and hear back to back trauma, trauma,
trauma and not do something with it. So I was
very grateful to my supervisor at the clinic. He had
like a twenty four to seven policy, hit me up
anytime anything comes up, so I could always go to him.
To the other therapists and interns at the clinic, and
(11:44):
also within the program, all the instructors, it just was
this constant reminding us that in order to be the
most effective counsel you can, you have to take care
of yourself. You can't just take on other people's issues
and listen to this sort of thing all the time
and not do something with it. So one thing I
got into the habit of that I still do now
(12:06):
is after a day of seeing clients, just going on
a very long walk and just walking it out and
doing like these butterfly presses, this sort of thing to
soothe myself and like some sort of I don't know,
somatic stuff, just whatever I could to get that out because,
(12:26):
like I said, some of the things my clients told me,
it's just like this is horrific. I just have so
much empathy for therapist. I knew it was a big job,
but like, I only did it for eighteen months, and
towards the end of my program, I was like, Okay,
I'm burns out, like I need a break, and I've
only been an intern for a year and a half. Truly,
(12:48):
my hats off to therapists, because if I had to
implement all these self care measures, drinking less and exercising more,
that sort of thing. Journaling is another habit that I
got more consistent with and then just talking about it.
It was the sort of thing where you can't just
keep that to yourself, Go tell your supervisor go talk
to the other therapists you work with, talk to your professors,
(13:11):
talk to your classmates, get it out. So yeah, that
was a huge part of the program. They emphasized that
to us over and over again.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
And what kind of misconceptions about mental health do you
feel like you had that were then cleared up by
your studies.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Well, I think probably the biggest one maybe not a misconception,
but I think I just did not really have an
understanding of how common all of this is. Like I
used to think that I was just this anomaly and
I was the most messed up person in the world,
and nobody had ever been as emotionally distraught as I have.
(13:47):
And then I get to school and I'm like, oh, girl,
you are a case study. You are literally textbook. There
is nothing exceptional about this at all. You are a DSM,
like you're right there. So there was that, And then
I guess with some of the other disorders, like personality disorders,
mental illnesses, that sort of thing. I think that's one
thing that the media gets wrong a lot, is depictions
(14:08):
of bipolar borderline what is mania? And it's something that
social media is not necessarily helping with because there's a
lot of mental health influencers out there who are just
saying whatever, and I had to This is veering off
topic a little, but I can't tell you how many
times I had clients come to session and say I
was watching this TikTok and I found out that people
(14:30):
pleasing means I'm actually a manipulator and I'm abusive, and
I'm like, okay, wait.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
Wait, wait wait, TikTokers can really be a problem in
that way.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
So yes, I think having a greater understanding of what
some of the more taboo, less accepted, less understood mental illnesses,
what that constitutes of, and the effect that that has
on the client, and trying to fight the huge amounts
of misinformation that are available on the internet.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
So this is very interesting because I feel like you're
probably the newest therapist that we've had on the podcast,
and so I'm really curious to hear. Okay, what are
the graduate programs or maybe your programs just specifically, since
you probably can only talk about that one. What kinds
of things are they teaching you about clients coming in
with social media stuff? Are like the impact of social
media on the clinical relationship? What kinds of conversations are
(15:21):
training programs having about that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
It wasn't part of the curriculum. I think it was
just something that came up because we're all on social,
our clients are all on social, and I don't know
that I got specific guidance about talking to clients about
social media. I just developed my own approach of I'm
very much person centered empathy first, trying to understand where
(15:46):
you're coming from, but also a gentle correction, a gentle redirecting.
And for me it was I'm obviously not going to
tell my clients take TikTok off your phone, but I
would say, if you're looking at mental health content on TikTok,
click through to that person's profile. Do they call themselves
a therapist? That's a very specific word that not everybody
(16:07):
can use. Do they list their degree, do they tell
you whether they're licensed? Or is this just somebody putting
out whatever they think will earn them a few dollars
through ad revenue. So that was the way that I approached,
especially with my clients and their teens and twenties, really
heavy emphasis on social media. But I can't say that
the program really prepared us for that. It was just
(16:29):
a lot of get ready because TikTok is out there,
and your clients are going to come to you with
something they've seen on TikTok.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Yeah, and that is not a new conversation. Lots of
therapists are having that same conversation about, you know, like
how do you talk with clients about what they see
on social media and whether there's some truth to it,
and like let's talk more about what you saw kind
of thing.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
I had one client in particular who was just really
big on TikTok, and so I would tell her anytime
you see something that has you thinking these things or
questioning something about yourself, bring that to session, you know,
or text me the link to the TikTok if you
want to, and I can tell you what I think
they got right and what I think they got wrong,
or how this is very general advice and so it
(17:11):
doesn't apply to you. That's another thing about social media,
which I think is great that there are so many
therapists out there talking about these things. But everybody puts
that disclaimer of this is not a substitute for your
own relationship with a mental health professional, because the information
on social media has to be generalized it has to
be this is what such and such can look like
(17:36):
in order for it to mean anything, like, we can't
talk about you in particular you this one user, because
we don't know you. And so just because you see
yourself in this graphic on Instagram does not necessarily mean
that you have this disorder either. So it really is
important to go talk to somebody. But it's kind of
like raising awareness, getting people to see that something could
(17:56):
be wrong in the first place, because if you don't
have that awareness, there's nowhere to go from there.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
So so you've shared a little bit about this on
the read, but I'm really curious to know more about
how you navigated the program as a public figure, because
I feel like when we hear like public figures like
going back to school, like it's usually something like law
school or advertising or journalistic, it feels like this is
a very different kind of program to navigate with somebody
(18:22):
who is a public figure. I mean, I feel like
I've heard you say like your classmates didn't necessarily know
who you were, So talk to me about like how
you navigated that, and like what kinds of boundaries you
needed to set to protect yourself.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Ah, well, I was very nervous. I'll say this. I
was so scared that I would be recognized. And actually
every semester I did get recognized by one person in
each class, but they wouldn't say anything until like maybe
the middle of the semester or at the very end.
One classmate wore the Reads T shirt like wore our
(18:56):
merch and I was like, Okay, you ain't have to
do that, you ain't have to do that. But the
people who did recognize me were very low key about it,
very cool. Even at graduation, a girl came up to
me and was like, congrats, and I was like, I
just need you to not tell nobody. Just don't tell
nobody until the ceremony is over, because I really wanted
(19:20):
to do this program anonymously. I did not want Crystal
or the Read This entertainment industry side of it to
be a part of it, because I took this so seriously,
like I know what it means to have a really
great therapist, and I wanted to try to be that
for other people and learn as much as I possibly could.
And I just did not want my job to infiltrate
(19:43):
any aspect of it at all. So I was very deliberate.
I did have a couple of close calls with Sometimes
clients would be like, oh, I was just watching Insecure
and I saw that they have a recap podcast, and I'm.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
Like, I wouldn't listen to that.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Or they would like name drop people that I've worked
with and I'm like, oh, wow, that's so interesting. And
one time my supervisor even said that he was thinking
of starting a podcast, and I was like, well, I
don't know much about that, but.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Good lush, it sounds great.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Just lying, but it was a necessary lie. Yes, I couldn't.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
I couldn't. I can't believe that.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
I mean because the Read is such a huge podcast,
Like it feels like there needed to almost be something
in place to kind of screen your clients.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
So it just happens.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Ace worked out that none of your clients had any
knowledge of who you were or what you did for work.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yes, wow, And I don't know how I got that
fortunate because most of my clients were black women, and
so I was quite nervous. I was quite nervous. But no,
none of them recognized me. None of my coworkers recognized me.
Just a small handful of classmates, maybe four or five classmates,
and that was it, so I know I was knocking
(21:03):
on wood the whole time. I think what saved me
is that the read is not a video podcast, so
even as long as we've been around, our faces don't
get passed around social media that much, so maybe people
don't really know what we look like. I think that
is my saving grace. But I knew if that one
person listened to that Insecure, I said, oh no, you
can't do that.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
Thankfully, I was just like, oh, yeah, Insecure, that's a
great show.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Tell me about the episode that you were about, you know,
trying to readirect But thankfully, either she never listened, or
she's listened after.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
We've terminated, so it's not my business no more.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
That is incredible. I just knew that they had put
some stuff in place for you so that you like,
didn't have clients who knew you or any of that,
so they just looked out that way. No, I'm very
grateful for New York City being as huge as it
is and nine million people, everybody's not gonna know who.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Chrystal is, Thankfully.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Thankfully, because I was quite nervous about that, I really
was so talk.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
To me about any difficulty you had besides keeping your
fingers crossed that nobody would recognize you were there. Anything
you had trouble navigating continuing to host the read and
being in grad school at the same time.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Not really.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Maybe the biggest issue would sometimes just be I just
got out of a session with a client telling me
about their trauma, and then twenty minutes later I have
to go record the show, So it's like I don't
have a lot of time to try to shake that
off and get into the mode of joking around and
having fun. But other than that, No, the show didn't
really conflict with school very much or vice versa. Very
(22:34):
grateful that we were able to change the days we
record or whatever based off my class schedule. So yes,
I took the program extremely seriously. And so even when
I would make references to school on the show or
talk in very general terms about a client, it was
always this like, let me be very careful to not
(22:57):
break confidentiality, let me be very careful about privacy. And
that was not a joke from me at all, And
so yes, took all that extremely seriously.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yeah, I don't think you even ever mentioned the name
of the school you were attending all the specific program.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
No, I did not. No, I did not.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
I did that on purpose. People asked all the time,
and I would be like to do pretend I don't
see that. I'm not telling y'all where I go, and
I'm not telling y'all because I do not want y'all
to find me. I want to do this as my
own self, Doctor Joe.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
You just don't know. I used to be so nervous.
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
I'm very grateful that it's all official now, the degree
is conferred, it's done. I don't think I'll risk anything
like that again.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
But yeah, more.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
From our conversation after the break, But first, a quick
snippet of what's coming next week on TVG.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
In personal relationships, I do notice this dynamic online as well, though,
that when therapists show up and have problems with certain
things or feel annoyed by stuff, there's a sense that like,
you shouldn't have quote unquote the negative feelings you're a therapist,
or you shouldn't struggle with things because you're a therapist.
And I literally have had people in my personal life say,
but you know how to get out of that, you
(24:15):
know how to not feel that. So I don't even
really understand how you could feel anxious about this or
how you could feel upset about this because you can
work yourself out of it. It feels really dehumanizing when
people do that, and they quite literally don't understand that
we cannot work on ourselves in that way.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Why do friendship breakups sometimes hurt more than romantic ones?
How do I make friends in a new city? Is
it true that women can't actually be good friends to
one another. I'm exploring all of these questions and so
much more in my book, Sisterhood Heels, now available in
paperback at your local independent bookstore or at sisterhood Heels
(24:58):
dot Com for you and your girls, and let's talk
about it. So you in part of your support circle.
Friend and doctor Kia and Jaye joined me on the
Sisterhood Heels booked to her last summer, which I was
so grateful for. But can you talk to me about
(25:19):
your support system and how that was instrumental in you
kind of completing grads?
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Yes, I really do not know where I would be
without my friends. They are such a huge support for me,
always encouraging me, because there were lots of times where
I was like I think I would like to drop out.
What am I even doing? I'm not gonna take this
degree and then go be a therapist. I'm not gonna
quit the read So why am I doing this? So
(25:45):
I'm stressing myself out? And they were just always especially
Kia because Kia has like eight degrees, So Kia was
always just like, I know you can do this. I
know it's hard, but you are doing such an incredible job.
I'm really so proud of you. And yes, the three of
them and really all of my friends just made me
(26:06):
feel so loved, supported, cared for a while I was
going through this degree. And yeah, I mean literally more
of a support than my family. So I really do
not know where I would be without those people.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
So what was some of the moments that made you
feel like I want to drop out? Is anything in
particular coming to mind? I feel like most grad students
have that experience, right, But is there anything more than
others that made you feel like I don't know if
I want to do this well?
Speaker 2 (26:32):
And this is my fault. I didn't take breaks. I
started my practicum in January of one year, and I
worked all the through that semester, and then I worked
all that summer, no credits, no money, just kept working
because I thought it would be best for my clients,
(26:53):
and then went right into internship that fall. Stayed at
the same clinics, so I kept my same clients, didn't
take a winter break that month, were supposed to get
off five six weeks, didn't do that either, and then
worked all again. So it was like I didn't take
the breaks that a grad student is supposed to take.
And I think around that one year mark, I was like, Okay,
(27:16):
I am getting kind of exhausted. It was really this
last semester where I was like, y'all, I don't know
what it is about being able to see the finish line,
but I don't want to cross it. Like I could
just stop right here right now, and I would be
okay with that. Like I think I'm just worn out.
I'm burned out. I'm tired of school and the pressure.
This is a job that I take much more seriously
(27:39):
because being a therapist is a position of power and
it was just so important to me that I honor
the therapeutic relationship, that I show up as the best
possible therapist I could be, even as an intern. So
I'm taking it very seriously. But I'm also not taking
any breaks, and I'm putting a lot of pressure showing
(28:00):
myself to be my best. And so yeah, I was.
I was worn out. I was quite worn out. But
I think it's just regular senioritists. It's a lot of
responsibility in being a therapist, and I have a pretty
responsibility light life. I wanted these plants every couple weeks
and that's about it. So having this legal, moral, ethical
(28:22):
obligation to these people was a huge shift for me,
and I was ready to go back to my responsibility
light life. Were there any conversations with supervisors about like, hey,
we think you need a break, like you have not
taken any breaks, like, was there any encouragement from supervisor? No, no,
no no. They said, if you feel like it, go
(28:44):
right ahead. If you feel up for it, go right ahead.
And so I did take two weeks towards the end
of the year for you know, Christmas and New Year's.
I did that just this past year.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
But that was it.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Otherwise I was working all the way through and maybe
somebody should have said, hey, don't see clients. Maybe somebody
should have put their foot down about that, but they agreed,
and the school kind of was the same way with
it's up to you if you want to work throughout
the summer. If I were you, I wouldn't, but that's
your decision to make. And so I thought it was
(29:20):
best for my clients that we not spend a whole
summer apart. But I wasn't really thinking about what was
best for me. Not that it was the end of
the world or anything, but you need a break. And
one of the things I noticed with my own therapist
before twenty twenty, she like, never took a break. We
had our little week or so at the end of
(29:41):
the year, and that was it once the pandemic hit.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
This lady is like okay, bye. She was like, yeah,
I'm going on vacation, see you in two weeks. I'm like, copy,
I got it. I love that she started modeling, like
oh yeah, actually, I need a break from this. This
is a lot, This is a lot of stress. So
I really don't know how therapists did in it, because
in twenty twenty I was just a student and not
(30:07):
even I don't think I had even started the program
yet then, So I really don't know how therapists held
it down. When the pandemic first hit because the stress
had to be through the roof as individuals and also
for your clients. And so starting in twenty twenty, she
was like, okay, now you say that, I'm thinking about
my own therapist. She also started traveling much more, like
(30:31):
long stints away and I mean, and we had conversations
about it, like her needing to kind of dig deeper,
and like the things that you were usually doing to
kind of manage weren't available to you anymore, and so
people had to kind of re route their whole kind
of coping strategies.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
Was meant being maybe more extreme in figuring.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Out how to take care of yourself so you could
take care of all of the problems. We were coming
to them right right, right.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
So I've never talked to her about that. It's very
much like that is my therapist, and I don't ask
her about her personal life or what she's doing. But
it was definitely something I noticed, like you never took
breaks before. And now I won't say all the time,
but maybe once a quarter or once every six months
she'll be like, yeah, I'm taking a break, and like
that is very reasonable, there's nothing wrong with that at all.
(31:18):
So yeah, yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
So you mentioned on the show before about like your
perfectionism and that showing up in other places, and of course,
I mean even in hearing you talking about client care
now I can hear some of the like perfectionistic kinds
of things. Can you talk a little bit about how
you navigated that, maybe with a supervisor or in your
own therapy, to think about like how that then impacted
you clinically.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Yeah, I think most of that processing happened in my
own therapy because I've noticed that supervisors tend to love perfectionists.
I've never had a supervisor to be like, you should
chill out and not be so great. I've never had
anybody say that, but you know, realizing the harm in
my perfectionistic ways. It's definitely something that I uncovered while
(32:01):
working with my own therapist, and I remember what shifted
for me was her providing this understanding that being a
perfectionist is not necessarily like, oh, I do everything perfectly,
like I refuse to have anything not be perfect. It's
more like realistic things are not the goal. The goal
(32:24):
is perfection, and you don't have a realistic understanding of
what things should be or how things should look. It's
more like if I get a ninety eight on a test,
I'm stressing out over the two points I missed, instead
of celebrating the ninety eight that I didn't miss. So
something about that whole conversation with her it made me
(32:44):
understand that my standards weren't realistic, and that was what
was causing all the distress for me, because there's no
reason for a person to be stressed out over a
ninety eight on an exam. But that was the kind
of person that I was. So her psycho education helped
a lot, and that was one thing I really learned
about school and loved so much about it, was going
(33:08):
to class and being like, that's what you did. I
see what you did, Like, oh, I see your ways?
Speaker 3 (33:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
How did that impact your relationship with your therapist after
you had more of those classes and you could figure
out what she was doing.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
I don't know if she noticed the difference in me,
but I remember at first coming to session almost as
if it was like a mock session, almost as if
I'm trying to give what I think is the right response,
and then she's gonna say this, and then I'm gonna
try to respond in a therapy type of way, and
(33:48):
then I let that go very quickly like no, no, no,
still the client and still just want to be like,
why am I taking on the role of the therapist.
Why am I doing that? You're not the therapist here,
and I'm not sure trying to respond in the therapeutic, mindful,
evidence based way. I'm just the client and I can
be messy and complicated and not always make sense, and
(34:09):
this is my space to do that. So I am
curious if she noticed any changes in me as a
client after I started the program, But like I said,
I don't talk to her about like her life or
anything to do with that at all, so I'll probably
never know.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
So you've been very clear that your intention was not
necessarily to get this degree to practice, which I find fascinating,
and so I want to hear more about that and
how you do plan to then use degree. Is it
just something that you're going to have just for knowledge sake?
Tell me more about that.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Well, that was the point I literally was like, how
did you do this? I want to know how you
did this? And so now I know, now I understand
how she did it. What I'm going to do with
the degree is really the million dollar question. The obvious, Oh,
start a mental health podcast is like right there. But
also I don't really know that that's needed from me.
(35:06):
I feel like there are lots of great voices in
that space already, especially yours, and so I'm like, I
don't really know if that's what I feel called to do.
But being a therapist is very hard work, and being
an entertainment podcaster is not anywhere near as hard, Like,
not anywhere near as hard. Being a therapist is a
lot of labor, and like I said, a lot of responsibility.
(35:28):
Even as an intern, I felt the weight of the
responsibility as a therapist. So I think very quickly I realized, like,
this is great. I'm glad I have this education. I
love that I have a master's degree now to fall
on if.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
I need one.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
But I would much rather, you know, make fun of Drake.
I would much rather, you know, make fun of Drake
and then have listener letters come in where people us
questions and I kept saying, I want to graduate, go
back to being a hoorad. I don't think I can
really ever fully go back to the way I used
(36:06):
to be. I think the education is always in the
back of my mind informing my thoughts, behaviors, actions, and
things I say. So I'm fine with using it in
that way and maybe finding other avenues. I'm still trying
to figure out exactly what I'm gonna do with the degree,
but I'm sure it will be integrated into my work somehow.
(36:27):
But leaving entertainment to go be a therapist full time,
I don't, especially because then it really would become an
issue of clients recognizing me. That would really and I
have had to tell so many listeners I am not
going to be your therapist. There is no sign up sheet,
there is no no, no, no, no no. You all
know way too much about me. You're not supposed to
(36:48):
know this much about your therapist at all. You know
too much about me, my life, my family, my opinions.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
None of that is your business.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
So I talk a little bit more about that because
I think earlier you made the point about like talking
to your therapist is not like talking to your friend,
not like talking to your past or like it's very different.
But I do think because so many people love you
and they hear your thoughts like every week, it's like, oh,
I really want her to be my therapist. Can you
talk about why it would be a bad idea for
you to just have a sign up sheet for people
(37:21):
to then become your client?
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Oh man, Well, first of all, because I think some
of y'all would show up just to be like, oh
my god, Crystal, I love you so much.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
I'm like, that's not what we're here for.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
But also, I think the thing that gave me so
much pause and still does is the idea that a
client will modify what they say or not be fully
honest or omit certain things because they know how I
feel about like my dad, for example, or a strained
relationship with my mother, or you know, any number of
(37:54):
things that I've talked about been open about on the show.
I didn't and still don't want client to know these
things about me and be like, Okay, well maybe I
shouldn't talk about how great my dad is, or maybe
if I talk about X y Z about my mom
that'll upset her. Things like that, you're not supposed to
be thinking about my feelings. This time is really about you.
(38:15):
And so the idea that a client would come to
therapy and not be fully honest about what was going
on because they know or they think they know how
I might feel or how I might react. It's like,
you're just not supposed to know these things about me.
What if I talked really bad about Drake and Drake
is your cousin, Like you know, it could be anything,
(38:38):
but yeah, it was especially the idea that people would
adjust what they bring to therapy based off how they
think I would respond to them, Like, no, I do
not want you to do that. And also, you're getting
Crystal that you see for two hours or less on
a podcast every week. But that is not the entirety
of me. And even the things you know about me
(38:59):
are only things I've told you.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
But still it's too much.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
It's been eleven years now of content of me being
open about my life and yeah, unfortunately y'all just know
too much about me.
Speaker 3 (39:11):
For me to be a therapist.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
More from our conversation after the break, Yeah, and I
really appreciate you sharing that because I think that that
is one of the misconceptions and that people don't really
understand the power balance, imbalance and the dynamics that happen.
(39:34):
There's so much we are holding in any given session
that you knowing so much about your therapist, even if
it's not conscious. You are thinking through like, oh, did
I hear Crystal say something about that? Maybe I need
to modify what I'm saying or I can't say this
because what if it ends up as a listener letter?
Like there are all these things that you may not
even be conscious of that then impact the therapeutic relationship. Yeah,
(39:58):
from the beginning, I knew that a listener could not
be a client, and so I was just constantly praying,
just please do not let a listener show up. And
I thank God because it worked out for me in
that way. But I knew from the beginning that would
be a bad idea. I don't need you going on
TikTok being like a Christly is my therapist. And this
is what she said. But I wonder if you are
(40:26):
aware because I have been able to kind of track
the way you respond in listener letters now versus the
first year of the ready Are you conscious of how
that has impacted, like your clinical training has impacted the
way you listened or respond to letters.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Absolutely, I think you can really tell the difference. Even
starting from when I started therapy, the way I started
responding to people shifted, but definitely once I got into
the program, it really expanded my empathy and my understanding
that really we're all dealing with something and none of
(41:06):
us are this blank slate where nothing bad ever happened
to us and there was never any trauma or anything
like that. People are coming at life from their own
experiences and operating out of their own understanding, and so
there's a lot more patience now with the letters. I
think there's actually even a little less of the breakup
(41:27):
with him. We used to automatically go to break up
with him, and there's a little more understanding now, a
little more Well, maybe have this conversation or consider this
other thing, but don't take breaking up with him off
the table.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
So it's always always, it's.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Always an option, like you might be trying a little
too hard to make this work.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
So what advice would you give to other people who
are maybe considering going back to school or considering starting
a program to become a therapist. I think my number
one piece of advice would be to go to therapy first.
I can't believe it's not a requirement to go to
therapy in order to get this degree, but it's not
every now and then classmates would say something or ask
a question, and I would just think if you had
(42:14):
been a client, you would know the answer to this.
I just think you need to know what it's like
to be on the other side of this dynamic. And
also you probably have some things you need to work
through with a therapist, like you. Sometimes classmates are talking
about like, well, how do I figure out my blah
blah blah or how do I determine this? And it's like, Oh,
(42:35):
you need to go talk to your own therapists, what
do you mean. I think that's probably the number one
thing you need is to know what it's like to
be a client before you decide to go be a therapist.
And also, you know, consider just being a client, like
it's cheaper and a lot less work. But one thing
(42:56):
I was always super mindful of was counter transference in
any possible counter transference happening with me. Is especially because
I had one client in particular who it was like
I was staring at my twenty five year old self,
and so I had to be so mindful constantly with
this person that I was not responding to her as
(43:19):
if she were me, that I was not talking to
her or trying to guide her as if it were
the things I needed to hear, but like being very
clear and remaining very mindful, like this is a separate person,
her own life, her own circumstances, And I think that's
another thing that maybe you're not prepared for or you
don't think about before you start the program. It's like, oh,
(43:41):
what if these people say something that triggers me or
reminds me of my own upbringing, Like yeah, just really
staying mindful of occurrences like that. Not even just with
younger clients. I also had older clients of my parents generation,
and sometimes talking to them would bring up those same things,
like you are really reminded me of my mother right now,
(44:03):
or it's giving my dad right now, but you know,
remaining in a therapist's place and responding to the client
and not to my own trigger or whatever was brought
up in me. So be aware before you start this program. Then,
working with clients, you will almost certainly work with somebody
(44:24):
who brings up something deep within you, and you have
to know how to handle that, how to manage that.
It's not something you can avoid entirely, but it is
something that you can handle. You just have to be
ready for it and aware.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
I've heard you say on the read that some of
your gen Z clients were kind of like your favorites,
like you really really enjoyed.
Speaker 3 (44:41):
Working with them.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
What's so special about then, What did you love most
about working with that population in particular?
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Oh, my goodness. Well, first of all, they are so fun.
They're slang Like sometimes I would just, you know, give
an intervention or something like that, an interpretation or whatever,
and my client would be like, you know.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
What, I hate that. It's just like they are fun
in that way.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
It's just such a great time this sort of late teens,
early to mid twenties, it's just such a great time
to be in therapy. I found that they were some
of the most enthusiastic clients, Like they really wanted to
understand why they do things a certain way, or why
they're feeling things, why they feel stuck in a certain
(45:27):
pattern or whatever. So it's definitely the intensity the intentionality
that they brought to therapy. But then also they are
just fun. Like every gen Z client I had asked
me what my sign was, Nobody else but gen Z
would be like, you know, you're big three. I'm like,
(45:47):
I sure do girl, And what about it? They talk about,
you know, things like astrology and TikTok and they're you know,
they're fun. So I just really loved working with them
younger population really did.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
So.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
Is there anything that you feel like you learned about
your own mental health through grad school that we have
not touched on yet.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
I think, just going back to what I said earlier
about being an actual case study, like a literal textbook example,
I think maybe that is what I learned is that
I am not special damaged snowflake. This is what happens
to people who have been emotionally mistreated. This is quite
(46:31):
literally what can happen to a person.
Speaker 3 (46:33):
You know.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
I just always thought I was so messed up, But
I actually responded in a very textbook way to the
things that happened to me. I was not so messed
up and so far gone and such an anomaly for
what happened to me. I was right in the middle
of the norm for the people that that has happened to.
So it just gave me a lot more peace of mind,
(46:56):
I guess, because I had always felt so different. There's
been lots of times in every where I'm like, maybe
I am just too messed up, and maybe I just
cannot get to a place of being okay, being happy.
Some people are too far gone and maybe I'm one
of those people. And I think it definitely helped with like, yes,
this is hard, it is, but this is not impossible
for you.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
Well, thank you so much for sharing all of this, Crystal.
It has just been such a delight to follow your
journey and again just celebrate you and your graduation. Just
such a cool experience. So thank you for spending some
time with us today. Let people know if they don't already,
how can they stay connected with you to everything happening
with the Read, the website, as well as any social
media handles you want to share.
Speaker 3 (47:38):
Okay, well, yes, you.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
Can find me every week on the Read, available on
all podcasting platforms. We're at this is the Read across
social media, and you can find me on Instagram at Crystal.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
That's cri ssl E beautiful. Be sure to include all
of that in the show notes. Thank you so much, Crystal,
Thank you, doctor Joy. I'm so glad Chryssel was able
to join me for this conversation to learn more about
her and the work she's doing. Be shure to visited
the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot Com slash
(48:11):
Session three sixty seven, and don't forget to text this
episode to two of your girls right now and encourage
them to check it out. If you're looking for a
therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy
for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you want
to continue digging into this topic or just be in
community with other sisters, come on over and join us
(48:33):
in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the
Internet designed just for black women. You can join us
at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode
was produced by Elise Ellis and Zaria Taylor. Editing was
done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining
me again this week. I look forward to continuing this
conversation with you all real soon. Take care
Speaker 3 (49:00):
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