August 14, 2024 • 42 mins
Like many of you, I’ve spent the past couple of weeks glued to the tv watching the Paris Olympics and in constant awe of the talent and athleticism of the athletes. Gymnastics is always one of my favorite competitions to watch but this year I was also tuned in for the track and field events and basketball. There was just no shortage of excellence on display. And as often happens, feats of Black women being excellent are often met with racism and sexism. A few years ago, right after the Tokyo Olympics, we released a conversation with Dr. Leeja Carter, a feminist sport psychology practitioner and the CEO of Coalition for Food and Health Equity that feels just as timely today.
During our conversation we discussed the ways that gendered racism shows up in sports, how the strong black woman trope impacts athletes, and how athletes are using platforms like social media to tell more of their story.
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The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three seventy two of Therapy
for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation
after a word from our sponsors. Like many of you,
I've spent the past couple of weeks glued to the
(01:18):
TV watching the Paris Olympics and in constant awe of
the talent and athleticism of the athletes. Gymnastics is always
one of my favorite competitions to watch, but this year
I was also tuned in for the track and field
events and basketball. There was just no shortage of excellence
on display, and, as often happens, feats of black women
(01:40):
being excellent are often met with racism and sexism. A
few years ago, right after the Tokyo Olympics, we released
a conversation with doctor Lejah Carn, a feminist sports psychology
practitioner and the CEO of Coalition for Food and Health
Equity that feels just as timely today. During our conversation,
(02:01):
we discuss the ways that gendered racism shows up in sports,
how the strong black woman trope impacts athletes, and how
athletes are using platforms like social media to tell more
of their story. If something resonates with you while enjoying
our conversation, please share with us on social media using
the hashtag TVG in Session, or join us over in
(02:23):
the sister circles to talk more about the episode. You
can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com.
Here's our conversation. I'm just so excited to have this
opportunity to talk with you because I feel like, in
like an academics and a psychologist's life, there are few
times when like the work that you do kind of
(02:45):
comes to life right in such a big, big way,
and like on such a global scale. So I know
that you have been incredibly busy in the past couple
of weeks and would love for you to just start
by like sharing, you know, your thoughts about all the
things that have unfolded as it relates to black women,
specifically in the Olympics.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Gosh, yeah, I mean, this is one of those moments
right where you're like ten years of your research and
you're like, has.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Been telling y'all, Try to tell y'all, Try to told y'all.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Ain't nobody been listening? Now you're listening. Now you're listen. Yes, Yes,
that's the feeling. That's honestly the feeling where you're like,
it's definitely a full SoCal moment, not just for myself,
but for other researchers and practitioners. Through his work is
(03:41):
deeply at this intersection of the ways in which these
kind of racist and sexist stereotypes and tropes play out
in performance based domain and seeing the way it's kind
of lived, it's just kind of been demonstrated. It's like,
this is what we've been saying all along, and this
(04:01):
is how it impacts wellness. This is how it impacts
black women's wellness. It's right here right in front of us,
for us to see the way black women athletes has
to navigate both racist and sexist oppressive systems and sport
at the Olympic level I think has been very very
(04:21):
interesting because that is really the World Stadium, the largest
platforms in sport, and so you know, looking at the
Simone Biles, Niomir Soaka, even Alison feel it and the
ways in which they've had to navigate sports throughout their
entire career, but particularly this year I think is quite
(04:42):
interesting because not just with COVID, but it's also the
sum of a year and a half of racial reckoning
that all black women have absorbed, but particularly black women athletes,
and so the Olympics being a space in which they've
kind of had to navigate this year and then perform
(05:02):
being a representative of the black community and also being
a representative of black women whom we still haven't gotten
justice for Breonna Taylor, and so it's just quite interesting
the interesting time in sports mm hmmm.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
So I want to step back for a little bit
just to kind of give our community an understanding of
like what sports psychologists generally do and then specifically, you know,
with the combination of you being a sports psychologist, but
also your specific research focus what that work look like
for you.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yeah, for sure. So for psychology is a very diverse field.
It includes researchers and practitioners, both individuals whom might be
trained clinically within the mental health field and work with
athletes along the spectrum of mental health and mental illness
as an intersects within sport and athleticism, as well as
(05:55):
researchers and non clinically trained individuals who work more around
the domain of sport and performance. So, what are the
conditions that help excite and stimulate elite athletic performance in exercisers?
And then you have individuals who are also and this
is a little bit more kind of where I fit in.
(06:16):
I shit in kind of multiple places, but are also
interested around just exercise and physical health and well being.
What are the ways in which exercise kind of helps
support just overall health and well being And how are
we as a sport and exercise community kind of bringing
exercise and sport to everybody in order for them to
engage in sport for all. And so you have a
(06:39):
kind of a multitude and that diversity or folks, isn't
sport in performance psychology? Well, my research really looks at
gendered racism and support exercise and health domains. I'm most
interested in the ways in which sport and exercise both
help and hinders physical activity and support engagement amongst roles
(07:00):
and women of color, particularly Black women. And when we
look historically and contemporarily, what are the things, what are
the conditions that have been most helpful for sport engagement,
What are the things that over time might cause black
women and girls to leave sport and physical activity, and
how do we kind of change those trends. And of
(07:21):
course it's a multitude of factors. It's no one particular factor.
It's a multitude of things. My research and my work
also looks at what are ways in which we can
train the next generations of sport and exercise psychology practitioners
to be much more culturally responsive to the needs of
women of color, but particularly Black women and girls when
(07:42):
it comes to sport and performance and physical activity. And
then I'm also just generally interested in just motivation. You know,
what are the things that are involved in increasing motivation
and engagement in sports and physical activity amongst diverse populations,
get particularly women of color and black women.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Mm hmm, Yeah, so I think, you know, you were
the perfect person to talk to about this because of
your research, right, So you looking at gender and sexism
as it relates to sports, and I think we saw
a lot of examples of that, you know, with just
the Olympics this year. So we had Shakerrie Richardson's suspension,
and then there was the whole band on like the
(08:24):
AFRO swimming caps and Brianna McNeil missing her drug tests
after recovering from an abortion, and so it seems like
the Olympics committee sets these supposedly neutral kinds of like rules,
but then we do see it feels like at least
black women kind of being undually penalized by some of this.
Can you talk about like how those rules that are
(08:44):
supposed to be neutral really do kind of horn black
women specifically?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Oh yeah, you know, I mean the first thing here
that comes up for me is that these rules are
neutral for white men, but they're not neutral for black
women and for women of color. And that speaks to
(09:09):
the lack of diversity in governing bodies, that those who
are the decision makers and those who are the gatekeepers
when it comes to these governing bodies and sport in
large part, those that sit on the boards are men
and white people. There's very little representation of women of color,
(09:30):
and then particularly black women. So when they're creating these
policies and these regulations, it does seem neutral for people
whom it just wouldn't affect and which is an issue.
But then when we think about the issue with the
swim cap, Yeah, I'm sure it's quite neutral for white
men because they don't have to think about natural hairstyles,
(09:50):
but it's actually quite political for black women who have
natural hair who swim and needs something that's you know,
city and also can cut through the water for them
when they're swimming at high rates of speed in the water.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yeah, and I think even based on your earlier comment
about studying some of the reasons why women leave sports
right and thinking about like how many like myself personally,
I do not know how to swim. I don't think
it's like all the way related to hair. I also
like just grew up in the country where there weren't
like lots of access to like where would you swim?
But I have heard that as a huge reason why
(10:25):
like a lot of black women have not swim, because
you know, if you just get your hair done, like
you're not trying to get in the pool, right, And
so these kinds of considerations around, like caps that would
protect hair and those kinds of things are something that
other people would not necessarily consider.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah, no, absolutely, Like the economics of swimming from a
black women's perspective is a very real thing that people
really do have to attach to. I'm a fish in
water and I don't swim because, like you you know,
I have to allow my blowouts to last, you know,
and I prefer, you know, sometimes I like to wear
my hair in Nashville. Sometimes I like it to be
(10:59):
blown up out. But that's my own personal preference, and
I don't want word to be a variable to something
that I've decided for my hair to be, you know,
today or tomorrow. But the other thing here is, let's
talk about kind of environmental racism for a second and
the ways in which that impacts sport participation. I did
a study that looked at the strong black woman's archetype
(11:22):
and its relationship to physical activity amongst women, and I
interviewed women in a rural area of Michigan, and one
thing that they said was on top of being able
to having to juggle a lot of different responsibilities in
that plain of role and then being able to engage
in physical activity. They said, we don't have any sidewalks,
(11:44):
So even if they wanted to start a walking group
or just to walk, there actually isn't anywhere for them
to walk, So they would have to walk in the
street if they wanted to use walking as their form
of physical activity. And so that was a very real
issue that they themselves cannot fix. And oftentimes when we're
(12:04):
thinking about sedentary behavior, we often put the responsibility on
the individual. In this particular society, we say they're the
ones that aren't aren't engaging in physical activity because they
don't want to be active, and we fail to look
at the build environment around them, particularly in rural and
urban areas that have been historically ignored and marginalized. So
(12:26):
this area is predominantly black, and there's just no sidewalks,
so they say, hey, how am I going to walk?
The other thing was that there was a gym that
had subsidized memberships. However, there was one bus that they
could take to get to that gym, and it only
ran in the morning and in the evening. So when
you think about their schedule and things like that, it
(12:46):
just wasn't possible to be able to go to this
gym and to maybe use the equipment and things like that.
All these things contribute to sedentary behavior of physical activities.
But when we take a step back, racism, it's just
environmental racism, structural racism when we know that there's greater
availability and much more highly resourced areas where sidewalks and
(13:11):
transportations are not an issue for people who are not
black and brown to engage in this collectivity.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
And can you say more, doctor Carter about like how
the strong black woman archetype kind of impacted this behavior.
What did you learn from that study?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Oh a lot. You know what I learned from that
particular study, and what I did in that study was
I interviewed individuals in that rural area of Michigan, but
then I interviewed about forty women all throughout New York City, Bronx, Brooklyn,
and Lower Vanahaire, all black women. And what I learned
(13:49):
is that there's a multitude of variables that are contemporarily
are built into this archetype of the strong black women.
Of course, we know a woman that's resilient, that can
make a way out of no way. It's part of
the strong Black woman, but that these women were also
holding on to a lot of other things that were
challenges for them to be able to engage in sport
(14:11):
and physical activity. One primary one was trauma. That many
of the women experienced a variety of different forms of trauma,
whether it was intimate partner violence, community based violence, loss
of a loved one, also migrating from one country to
the US, and still working through that trauma and processing
(14:31):
that trauma was a barrier for them to even think
about engaging in physical activity. Many of them said it
was a world away, like why would I be thinking
about engaging in regular physical activity or sports when I'm
still working through the loss of my son who was
murdered due to community based violence, or I'm still grieving,
(14:54):
you know, the loss of this person or whatever it
might be. And so when we're thinking about, well, how
the strong Black women are, when we're thinking about working
with black women and what might be a potential barrier
or challenge for them to engage in regular physical activity,
understanding what black women might be holding and the ways
(15:18):
in which they might be socialized into the strong Black
women is extremely important. Two other things that came out
of that study, amongst many, was that the strong black
woman ideal was something that was passed down generationally, not
just from mother to daughter, but from father to daughter,
(15:38):
from mother to son, and so it was very deeply
ingrained into the psyche of the black community, and a
idea that deeply is glorified amongst many different actors within
the black community, making it quite hard to disrupt. So
not only is it something that's reinforced by it's a
(16:00):
larger white supremacist society, but it's something that's also glorified
internally within our own community, making it hard to counteract.
There is this theme around anxiety and mental health related
to being a strong Black woman, and that I think
that's also due to Rolestream taking on so many different
(16:21):
responsibilities and that's delayed self care and how that impacts
just your general well being and mental health.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
H More from our conversation after the break. I'm so
excited to chat with you. So it's so funny because
we were trying to think about, like what is the
therapy for black girls? Tying into Cowboy Carter and I
was like, oh, equine therapy, Like you have been wanting
to do this episode for a while, so I'm so
happy we found you. So can you talk with us
(16:49):
first about what is equine therapy?
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Yeah, So, equine assistant psychotherapy is an experiential therapy treatment
that's so far have been proven to increase self efficacy, selfacy,
positive identity in individuals along with helping them reduce symptoms
of depression and anxiety. And basically it's a form of
therapy that involved working with forces instead of just regular
(17:15):
talk therapy.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
So, doctor Carter, I feel like there are so many
places I want to go based on what you just shared.
So something that you know, I had been thinking about,
but you just reminded me of is this whole idea
around trauma and how we also saw that play out
in the Olympics. Right, So we found out later that
Shakarrie Richardson's mother had passed, and you know, it sounds
like a part of how she was coping with that
(17:49):
grief was through marijuana. And then we also later found
out that Simone Bows had an aunt that passed while
she was in Tokyo and that she was also car
this experience of being a victim of sexual assault, right,
and so, you know, I wonder if you can talk
a little bit about you know, we know just on
(18:09):
a regular basis, like how we just try to go
to work from day to day dealing with a traumatic experience.
But then you're, like you said, on this world stage,
the world stadium, expected to perform with these traumatic experiences
kind of under your built.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
So where do I start here? Because part of the
strong Black woman this image is that it's a very
controlling image that is used to tell Black women how
they're supposed to behave, right, that if you're not behaving
like a strong black woman, then you were not engaging
(18:46):
in the appropriate form of black woman shoulds. And the
reason why I'm starting my response that way is because
I think it shed some light into one of the
criticism that Simone Biles receive, as well as some be
side eyeing that Shakari Richardson received. Right. So, if the
strong Black woman, the ways in which it's used to
(19:07):
control Black femininity and Black womanhood is that you are
supposed to absorb trauma, absorb the hardships of life, and
wear it in some form of kind of mass grace
and form of grace. And that is a badge of glory,
a badge of honor. Then the moment that you say
(19:29):
I don't want this badge, then that means that you're
not being a woman, You're not being a graceful Black woman.
Then that's the problem. So when it comes to Simone
Biles and Shakari Richardson, you see Simon Bile saying, look,
I'm an athlete, I'm a performer. One of the things
(19:50):
I like about Simon Biles is that she's very clear
that her profession is an athlete, and there's so many
other aspects to her that are outside of her as
an athlete in this privileged profession. And so in understanding
that she says, look, my role as an athlete is
(20:12):
not to assume this idea of being a strong black
woman and to persevere to the pain that I'm holding
right now, as well as this narrative that I'm supposed
to be the mammy of all of the survivors and
all the victims of USA Gymnastics. That is not my
role here. And I am actually feeling in this moment
(20:37):
the kind of sumb of all of that right now
in the Olympics, and it's time for me to take
a step back that is her being a human being
and just living in her humanity. But unfortunately, what the
strong black woman's trope and ideal does is it dignifies
black women and it doesn't allow them to live in
(20:59):
their humanity. So when Simone Bile does this, people who
see her through that lens are confused. They I think
a few things happen. I think they say, wait, you're bionic.
You're not, You're vulnerable, you feel things. Wait, you experience trauma.
(21:20):
So that first thing happens, and I think a second
thing happens is a disbelief that wait, not only do
you experience a form of trauma, or not only are
you experiencing the twisties or something like that, but are
you really can you really just not push through and
(21:42):
do this? Because you're bionic and as a superwoman, you're
also a fixer. You're the one that just figures it out,
even in the face of so much hardship and challenge,
you as a black woman, are designed to figure it out,
and you're telling us you can't. I don't believe you.
(22:03):
And the same that hadn't happened with Shikari Richardson. You
mean that the way that you coped with this news
and this situation was with marijuana. No, you're a black woman,
You're just supposed to be able to do things without
any additional support. You can just figure it out. And
(22:24):
so being held so rigidly in that controlling image when
women black women act outside of it, what happens when
people use that lens is that they marginalize them. And
we see Shakari Richardson marginalized, and we see some mobiles
criticized and marginalized. Mm hmm. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
And can you talk a little bit more about this
idea that you mentioned earlier, Samon Biles, is like we
were all rooting for them, right, Can you talk about
like some of that added pressure of feeling like they
have to represent not only the US, which has not
typically been kind to them, right, but also like, Okay,
I got to represent the black community on.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
My back, gosh. I mean, I think that's the story
of black athletes since the since the creation of sport
and the integration of sport in the US, the representations
that they are the representatives of all black people. And
I think for black women athletes, it is not only
(23:23):
I am just choosing happenings, not only my representing the
black community and black women. But I also have to
I also have to navigate this form of classist, racist,
and sexist respectibility, the idea of a graceful black woman
within a system that is reinforcing this, this subtle but
(23:48):
aggressive form of ownership of the athletes. Navigating all of
this and remaining a political sport is wonderful at maintaining
a space of neutral It's all a sport, like, there's
no identity here. There's no identity. Politics. Sport is where
it's just you and competition and nowhere else. And so
(24:11):
black women have to navigate the pressure, the burden of
representing black community and being tokenized as a black woman athlete,
yet not being allowed to speak on the very things
they're being tokenized for. It's a hard space to be in,
(24:32):
a hard place to be in. And like kudos for
like Simone Biles, the way in which she navigates it,
Like I don't even know how she does it. You know,
I think we've seen Alison Felix when she broke heris
silence with Nike around maternity protections. I mean, I think
she said, you know, I had enough of trying to
(24:53):
navigate this very oppressive dance and this sport and this
industry that is not an never going to love me back.
And I think that it really became evident for her
when she was pregnant and realized that, hey, I'm not
getting any protection for me as a pregnant woman knowing
(25:13):
that the stakes are much higher as a black woman
that's pregnant, and Nike, the most powerful work company, can't
even find ways to protect me. So I think in
that realization for Allison's probably where you see where she said,
you know, and I'm not even going to do this anymore.
I'm done. M H.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Something that it feels like has been really instrumental, at
least in my advantage point is athletes like some Own
Biles and Naomia Soka really using social media and other
forms of like new media to kind of control the
narrative around what their story is. So have you seen that, Like,
do you feel like social media and other kind of
spaces of new media have really allowed them to humanize
(25:54):
themselves more?
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Yeah, I agree with you one. I mean I think
that social media, Twitter, Instagram, you know, TikTok. I think
these have been wonderful mechanisms for athletes to be able
to disrupt narratives that really are not authentic to who
(26:16):
the athlete is. And I think the story around Nyoma
and soccer is probably the best example. When she says, hey,
I'm not going to sit with the media, and initially
the narrative being scripted is that she is being a
defiant young biracial woman, right, and she then uses social
media to say, hey, that's not the case. You know,
(26:39):
the media is a trigger for me and this is why.
And I respect the rules and all that, but this
is why. So she's using social media to reshape and
disrupt a narrative that was being created not only by
sport media, but unfortunately by the World Tennis organism that
(27:00):
was also trying to create a narrative that she was
not being a cooperative athlete within the organization. I think
another thing that social media does is that it helps
unify athletes around a number of different political and advocacy
oriented topics. I mean, one thing about sports against sports
(27:21):
likes to be this a political space and this neutral space,
so oppression can really survive in silence. And I think
that when it comes to athletes and social media, they
can connect with each person's story, they can say wow,
you're going through this too. I didn't know because I
can't share my contract with you. I can't share what
(27:41):
this person said to me. Right, But now they can
use social media and say, yeah, this happened to me,
it happened to you, and now let's begin to create
a movement for change. I think the perfect example is
around the maternity protections. We saw that with Alison Felix
and Alicia Marcano.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Yeah, you know, like the World Tennis Organization's you know,
kind of the angle they were trying to spind there
with Naomi Osaka too. But it also feels like the media,
just in general, at least more traditional news outlets, it
also feels like play a real role in shaping these
narratives and really kind of playing into this idea of
the strong black woman.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Absolutely, I agree. Yeah, I mean the media is really
good at crafting a number of different racist, sexist tropes
and stereotypes of black women. I mean we saw them.
I think that was in twenty eighteen when Serena challenged
a call. They were very quick to typecast her and
(28:40):
she was actually characters as an angry black woman on
the tennis court, right because she was acting outside of again,
what is supposed to be or what particularly in tennis
is supposed to be typecasted as a traditional form of
femininity and so and then for black women, she's just
was to just take it right. And so because she
(29:02):
said no, this is not a good call. Okay, now
we're going to marginalize her and typecast her as an
angry at attitude y black woman. And so the media
does an unfortunate yet good job of quickly typecasting black women,
black women as some form of oppositional, angry superhuman or
(29:24):
even at times does abelling black women.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
M Yeah, all of the stereotypes.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Yeah, we're some form of controlled image that they like
to play us into, which really just indignifies and does
a job of reducing our humanity, if not removing it.
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
More from our conversation after the break. So, doctor Carter,
you know, I haven't fully formed my thoughts on this,
but there's something swirling around in my mind around like
resisting these superhuman attributes and like not playing into the
(30:05):
strong black women stereotype, but also balancing that with like
how incredible like some black women athletes are. Right, So
I think we have seen this both with Simone Biles
and historically if we go back to Soraya Bonilly, so
they both i think have been penalized for like coming
up with these new moves that the Olympics and people
(30:27):
don't want them to do and so they don't grade
them the same, and they're like, Okay, you're gonna get
in trouble if you do that, So can you help
me think through how do you balance you know, because
there feels like something racist, they are also right racist
and gendered, and that these two women have been able
to kind of do things that other people haven't been
able to do but now are penalized for that.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
I think the first thing is that I'm just thinking
about the strong black women and this idea of like
positioning black women as superhuman and then connecting it too
or there's like this line there where when we look
at women like Simone Biles where she's engaging in feet
that the average person cannot, so you're kind of like,
(31:10):
but she is like strong, she's doing things that like
she's the only woman in the world that can do it.
Probably very few men can do it as well, And
so there's that. But there's this piece in the book
forty million dollars slaves, where the author talks about when
we think about just racism and sports, there is a
(31:34):
dissonance that exists within this racist sports society that there
is an admiration for the feat that black athletes can do,
and in this context, black women athletes. So there's this
admiration like, wow, look at what Simone Biles can do,
Look at what Serena Williams can do. Right, But then
there's a resentment. We admire you and we are extracting
(31:59):
labor and entertainment from you because you are driving an
engine that it's profitable. Right. However, we hate that it's you. Mmm.
We hate that it's a black woman, and so we
don't know what to do with that. And so I
(32:23):
think that is where we see the underscoring of Simone
Viles when she's doing these terrific feats and other athletes
as well, where they, you know, don't give her the score.
I think for the vault that she did that is
named after her, I think they scored it like a
six ' six and she's like, they underscored me, But
that's on that, you know. I think that's where they're at.
(32:45):
It's this dissonance of like, wow, this is done and
admiring it, but a deep racist resentment that it's a
black woman that's done it.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Mm hmmm.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
It kind of goes back to our earlier conversation around
these rules, right, because what they say is like, well,
we don't want other people trying this because they could
really hurt themselves. But would the rule be the same if,
like a non black athlete had done it.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Absolutely not. And I mean the other thing here is
that we have to also look at this through the
frame of like also just general femininity, right, like what
does the woman look like who's doing this? And I
think an example is Castor Semenya, the South African runner,
whom unfortunately her biology has been police. And I think
(33:29):
we see the same things happen when we look at
other black women is with the same underscoring, the same
police scene of black women's Olympic seats and just general
performance occur they fit more Eurocentric feminine features, which would allow, unfortunately,
(33:50):
these governing bodies to kind of situate them more to
kind of white adjacent athletes and standards. That's alation, but
something that.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
I wonder mm hmmm, yeah, And I do wonder too
at what point are we going to get away from
looking at people's like what are they measuring? I don't
even remember all the specifics, but when they say, okay,
you have too many, you know, like it's too masculine
or something, right, Like, at what point is that going
to be outlawed really as a criteria for being able
(34:22):
to participate?
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Yeah, lots, we had a long way to go.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
I think we really have a long way to go.
I think another issue here too is that when we
think of the Moon Biles and Torida Williams and Naomi
Orsaka and Alison Felix, I think we also are see
the athletes who are beginning to transcend a system of
ownership and sport and being able to attain an element
(34:52):
of like free athletes, and so that is a quite
radical status to have, and I think it's also something
that's scared, you know, individuals who are in these controlling
governing bodies, particularly because they're black women.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Mm hmmm, mm hmm. It's also not lost on me
that it feels like a lot of these black women
who have done this and like who are kind of
leading this movement are largely in individual sports right, Like,
I feel like this is the kind of thing that
you probably would not see. I mean, we don't have
female football leagues, but like you couldn't see in the
NFL or the NBA, And we saw this even with
(35:27):
the WNBA, right like that they were really on the
front lines of like a lot of the social justice
movements we saw like in the past year or two.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Mm h Absolutely, I agree. When the WNBA players were
the ones to really first speak out and engage in
their different actions around advocacy, they received harsh signs, harsh
harsh sindes because it's still within the institution of the
NBA that they have to navigate collectively, and so I
do agree with you that it's far different for an
(35:56):
individual athletes to say no or do the things that
they would prefer to do, versus to have to really
navigate a different type of systems.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Mm hmmm. So you've already kind of alluded to this,
doctor Carter, but I'd love to just hear you expound
a little more about what you feel like this moment
in sports, with all the things that we've seen in
the saying no and setting boundaries, what do you think
this means for like black women's mental health.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Yeah, you know. I think the first is that I
think in general, I think the world is waking up
when it comes to generally like racism and sexism in
the world. But I think this particular moment is like
a like y'all, like y'all see this right, Like you know.
So I think that one just the aha moments that
(36:47):
people are having because just around the racist and sexist
oppression that exists, and how it's demonstrating the criticism that
Naomi and Sokka and Loanbiles received, how people are waking
up to that. It's just so crucial. The other thing
here is that it speaks to the pressure that athletes
(37:10):
experience in general, and that athletes need space to be
able to institute and constitute boundaries. This idea that sport
is one hundred percent healthy and I'm not saying that
it's detrimental to health, but that it's a workplace environment,
and that we need to begin to situate professional sport
(37:32):
as a workplace environment. And for elite athletes when they say, hey,
I need a day off, you know, I need a
six day then it needs to be treated that way,
not as someone being enslaved to a system that is
just that like this. This is not an athlete being
(37:54):
enslaved to a system. This is an employee. And they're
saying that they need a six day And so there
needs to be rules and policies that really begin to
create a healthy workplace environment for our elite athletes that
way they can care for themselves long terms in a
variety of ways. The other thing is that we've got
(38:16):
to be able to protect our elite athletes from fans
and from media. This idea that they have to engage
with media, this idea that they have to perform even
at their potential detriment to their own physical and psychological safety,
is deeply inappropriate. We wouldn't make any other person do that,
and so why would we have that for elite athletes
(38:38):
to deeply, deeply, deeply troubling to me and I'm sure
everyone else. And so this is a crucial time just
when it comes to the institution of professional elite sports,
but then when we bring it down to college sports
and high school sports, I think this is a great
and important time to be talking about psychological health and
well being with youth athletes and high school athletes that hey,
(39:03):
look at Simone Biles in Naomi of Soccer and even
Michael Phelps, like, we're the conversation about what mental health is,
what mental illnesses, talking to coaches about having a dynamic
way of coaching that supports youth development holistically, particularly for
young black girls. Now is the time to really lean
(39:26):
into this because what should be a place where kids
are learning, you know, the ads and c's of life,
you know, sport in life, and if we can bring
that to our young black girl the way they go
into healthy Black girls. Using Simone Biles in the Naomi
of Soccer says, you know, hey, look she said no,
she said her health first, and you can say that too.
(39:48):
I'm getting chills just even thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Mm hmmmmmmm. So, doctor Carter, you already mentioned forty million
dollars slave as a reference point for some of this conversation.
Are there other books or other resources that you would
want to offer to the community that they may enjoy
kind of based on what you've shared today.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yeah, you know, I got to shout out my book.
It is a rufic edited volume feminist Applied sports Psychology
from sery to practice. In that book, we really run
down there's a section where we're just black feminist politics
and sport. Everything we just talked about in this podcast.
Also we go into indigenous based and indigenous practicism sport,
(40:28):
as well as the experiences of trans athletes and trans
women in sport. So if you're interested in the diversity
of sport but to a feminist, womanist and black feminist lens,
please pick up the book. It's a great book.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Perfect, And where can we find you, doctor Carter? What
is your website as well as any social media handles
you'd like to share.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
You know, I was going to say you can find
me outside, but we cannot. You can find me at
doctor Leijia on Instagram. You can also find me at
my nonprofit which is Coalition Underscore Equity, and also at
(41:08):
www dot Coalitionequity dot org. Perfect.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
We'll be short to include that in the show notes. Well,
thank you so much for spending some time for us today,
doctor Carter. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
No, it's my pleasure, and thank you for the great
conversation and some of the last in between.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
I'm amazed at how timely and relevant that conversation with
doctor Carter continues to be to learn more about her
and her work. Visit the show notes at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot com slash Session three seventy two, and don't
forget to text two of your girls and tell them
to check out the episode right now. If you're looking
for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory
(41:51):
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if
you want to continue digging into this topic or just
being community with other sisters, come on over and join
us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of
the Internet designed just for black women. You can join
us at Community dot therapyfro blackgirls dot com. This episode
was produced by Elise Ellis and Zaria Taylor. Editing was
(42:14):
done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining
me again this week. I look forward to continuing this
conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
What's
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three seventy two of Therapy
for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation
after a word from our sponsors. Like many of you,
I've spent the past couple of weeks glued to the
(01:18):
TV watching the Paris Olympics and in constant awe of
the talent and athleticism of the athletes. Gymnastics is always
one of my favorite competitions to watch, but this year
I was also tuned in for the track and field
events and basketball. There was just no shortage of excellence
on display, and, as often happens, feats of black women
(01:40):
being excellent are often met with racism and sexism. A
few years ago, right after the Tokyo Olympics, we released
a conversation with doctor Lejah Carn, a feminist sports psychology
practitioner and the CEO of Coalition for Food and Health
Equity that feels just as timely today. During our conversation,
(02:01):
we discuss the ways that gendered racism shows up in sports,
how the strong black woman trope impacts athletes, and how
athletes are using platforms like social media to tell more
of their story. If something resonates with you while enjoying
our conversation, please share with us on social media using
the hashtag TVG in Session, or join us over in
(02:23):
the sister circles to talk more about the episode. You
can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com.
Here's our conversation. I'm just so excited to have this
opportunity to talk with you because I feel like, in
like an academics and a psychologist's life, there are few
times when like the work that you do kind of
(02:45):
comes to life right in such a big, big way,
and like on such a global scale. So I know
that you have been incredibly busy in the past couple
of weeks and would love for you to just start
by like sharing, you know, your thoughts about all the
things that have unfolded as it relates to black women,
specifically in the Olympics.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Gosh, yeah, I mean, this is one of those moments
right where you're like ten years of your research and
you're like, has.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Been telling y'all, Try to tell y'all, Try to told y'all.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Ain't nobody been listening? Now you're listening. Now you're listen. Yes, Yes,
that's the feeling. That's honestly the feeling where you're like,
it's definitely a full SoCal moment, not just for myself,
but for other researchers and practitioners. Through his work is
(03:41):
deeply at this intersection of the ways in which these
kind of racist and sexist stereotypes and tropes play out
in performance based domain and seeing the way it's kind
of lived, it's just kind of been demonstrated. It's like,
this is what we've been saying all along, and this
(04:01):
is how it impacts wellness. This is how it impacts
black women's wellness. It's right here right in front of us,
for us to see the way black women athletes has
to navigate both racist and sexist oppressive systems and sport
at the Olympic level I think has been very very
(04:21):
interesting because that is really the World Stadium, the largest
platforms in sport, and so you know, looking at the
Simone Biles, Niomir Soaka, even Alison feel it and the
ways in which they've had to navigate sports throughout their
entire career, but particularly this year I think is quite
(04:42):
interesting because not just with COVID, but it's also the
sum of a year and a half of racial reckoning
that all black women have absorbed, but particularly black women athletes,
and so the Olympics being a space in which they've
kind of had to navigate this year and then perform
(05:02):
being a representative of the black community and also being
a representative of black women whom we still haven't gotten
justice for Breonna Taylor, and so it's just quite interesting
the interesting time in sports mm hmmm.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
So I want to step back for a little bit
just to kind of give our community an understanding of
like what sports psychologists generally do and then specifically, you know,
with the combination of you being a sports psychologist, but
also your specific research focus what that work look like
for you.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yeah, for sure. So for psychology is a very diverse field.
It includes researchers and practitioners, both individuals whom might be
trained clinically within the mental health field and work with
athletes along the spectrum of mental health and mental illness
as an intersects within sport and athleticism, as well as
(05:55):
researchers and non clinically trained individuals who work more around
the domain of sport and performance. So, what are the
conditions that help excite and stimulate elite athletic performance in exercisers?
And then you have individuals who are also and this
is a little bit more kind of where I fit in.
(06:16):
I shit in kind of multiple places, but are also
interested around just exercise and physical health and well being.
What are the ways in which exercise kind of helps
support just overall health and well being And how are
we as a sport and exercise community kind of bringing
exercise and sport to everybody in order for them to
engage in sport for all. And so you have a
(06:39):
kind of a multitude and that diversity or folks, isn't
sport in performance psychology? Well, my research really looks at
gendered racism and support exercise and health domains. I'm most
interested in the ways in which sport and exercise both
help and hinders physical activity and support engagement amongst roles
(07:00):
and women of color, particularly Black women. And when we
look historically and contemporarily, what are the things, what are
the conditions that have been most helpful for sport engagement,
What are the things that over time might cause black
women and girls to leave sport and physical activity, and
how do we kind of change those trends. And of
(07:21):
course it's a multitude of factors. It's no one particular factor.
It's a multitude of things. My research and my work
also looks at what are ways in which we can
train the next generations of sport and exercise psychology practitioners
to be much more culturally responsive to the needs of
women of color, but particularly Black women and girls when
(07:42):
it comes to sport and performance and physical activity. And
then I'm also just generally interested in just motivation. You know,
what are the things that are involved in increasing motivation
and engagement in sports and physical activity amongst diverse populations,
get particularly women of color and black women.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Mm hmm, Yeah, so I think, you know, you were
the perfect person to talk to about this because of
your research, right, So you looking at gender and sexism
as it relates to sports, and I think we saw
a lot of examples of that, you know, with just
the Olympics this year. So we had Shakerrie Richardson's suspension,
and then there was the whole band on like the
(08:24):
AFRO swimming caps and Brianna McNeil missing her drug tests
after recovering from an abortion, and so it seems like
the Olympics committee sets these supposedly neutral kinds of like rules,
but then we do see it feels like at least
black women kind of being undually penalized by some of this.
Can you talk about like how those rules that are
(08:44):
supposed to be neutral really do kind of horn black
women specifically?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Oh yeah, you know, I mean the first thing here
that comes up for me is that these rules are
neutral for white men, but they're not neutral for black
women and for women of color. And that speaks to
(09:09):
the lack of diversity in governing bodies, that those who
are the decision makers and those who are the gatekeepers
when it comes to these governing bodies and sport in
large part, those that sit on the boards are men
and white people. There's very little representation of women of color,
(09:30):
and then particularly black women. So when they're creating these
policies and these regulations, it does seem neutral for people
whom it just wouldn't affect and which is an issue.
But then when we think about the issue with the
swim cap, Yeah, I'm sure it's quite neutral for white
men because they don't have to think about natural hairstyles,
(09:50):
but it's actually quite political for black women who have
natural hair who swim and needs something that's you know,
city and also can cut through the water for them
when they're swimming at high rates of speed in the water.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yeah, and I think even based on your earlier comment
about studying some of the reasons why women leave sports
right and thinking about like how many like myself personally,
I do not know how to swim. I don't think
it's like all the way related to hair. I also
like just grew up in the country where there weren't
like lots of access to like where would you swim?
But I have heard that as a huge reason why
(10:25):
like a lot of black women have not swim, because
you know, if you just get your hair done, like
you're not trying to get in the pool, right, And
so these kinds of considerations around, like caps that would
protect hair and those kinds of things are something that
other people would not necessarily consider.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah, no, absolutely, Like the economics of swimming from a
black women's perspective is a very real thing that people
really do have to attach to. I'm a fish in
water and I don't swim because, like you you know,
I have to allow my blowouts to last, you know,
and I prefer, you know, sometimes I like to wear
my hair in Nashville. Sometimes I like it to be
(10:59):
blown up out. But that's my own personal preference, and
I don't want word to be a variable to something
that I've decided for my hair to be, you know,
today or tomorrow. But the other thing here is, let's
talk about kind of environmental racism for a second and
the ways in which that impacts sport participation. I did
a study that looked at the strong black woman's archetype
(11:22):
and its relationship to physical activity amongst women, and I
interviewed women in a rural area of Michigan, and one
thing that they said was on top of being able
to having to juggle a lot of different responsibilities in
that plain of role and then being able to engage
in physical activity. They said, we don't have any sidewalks,
(11:44):
So even if they wanted to start a walking group
or just to walk, there actually isn't anywhere for them
to walk, So they would have to walk in the
street if they wanted to use walking as their form
of physical activity. And so that was a very real
issue that they themselves cannot fix. And oftentimes when we're
(12:04):
thinking about sedentary behavior, we often put the responsibility on
the individual. In this particular society, we say they're the
ones that aren't aren't engaging in physical activity because they
don't want to be active, and we fail to look
at the build environment around them, particularly in rural and
urban areas that have been historically ignored and marginalized. So
(12:26):
this area is predominantly black, and there's just no sidewalks,
so they say, hey, how am I going to walk?
The other thing was that there was a gym that
had subsidized memberships. However, there was one bus that they
could take to get to that gym, and it only
ran in the morning and in the evening. So when
you think about their schedule and things like that, it
(12:46):
just wasn't possible to be able to go to this
gym and to maybe use the equipment and things like that.
All these things contribute to sedentary behavior of physical activities.
But when we take a step back, racism, it's just
environmental racism, structural racism when we know that there's greater
availability and much more highly resourced areas where sidewalks and
(13:11):
transportations are not an issue for people who are not
black and brown to engage in this collectivity.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
And can you say more, doctor Carter about like how
the strong black woman archetype kind of impacted this behavior.
What did you learn from that study?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Oh a lot. You know what I learned from that
particular study, and what I did in that study was
I interviewed individuals in that rural area of Michigan, but
then I interviewed about forty women all throughout New York City, Bronx, Brooklyn,
and Lower Vanahaire, all black women. And what I learned
(13:49):
is that there's a multitude of variables that are contemporarily
are built into this archetype of the strong black women.
Of course, we know a woman that's resilient, that can
make a way out of no way. It's part of
the strong Black woman, but that these women were also
holding on to a lot of other things that were
challenges for them to be able to engage in sport
(14:11):
and physical activity. One primary one was trauma. That many
of the women experienced a variety of different forms of trauma,
whether it was intimate partner violence, community based violence, loss
of a loved one, also migrating from one country to
the US, and still working through that trauma and processing
(14:31):
that trauma was a barrier for them to even think
about engaging in physical activity. Many of them said it
was a world away, like why would I be thinking
about engaging in regular physical activity or sports when I'm
still working through the loss of my son who was
murdered due to community based violence, or I'm still grieving,
(14:54):
you know, the loss of this person or whatever it
might be. And so when we're thinking about, well, how
the strong Black women are, when we're thinking about working
with black women and what might be a potential barrier
or challenge for them to engage in regular physical activity,
understanding what black women might be holding and the ways
(15:18):
in which they might be socialized into the strong Black
women is extremely important. Two other things that came out
of that study, amongst many, was that the strong black
woman ideal was something that was passed down generationally, not
just from mother to daughter, but from father to daughter,
(15:38):
from mother to son, and so it was very deeply
ingrained into the psyche of the black community, and a
idea that deeply is glorified amongst many different actors within
the black community, making it quite hard to disrupt. So
not only is it something that's reinforced by it's a
(16:00):
larger white supremacist society, but it's something that's also glorified
internally within our own community, making it hard to counteract.
There is this theme around anxiety and mental health related
to being a strong Black woman, and that I think
that's also due to Rolestream taking on so many different
(16:21):
responsibilities and that's delayed self care and how that impacts
just your general well being and mental health.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
H More from our conversation after the break. I'm so
excited to chat with you. So it's so funny because
we were trying to think about, like what is the
therapy for black girls? Tying into Cowboy Carter and I
was like, oh, equine therapy, Like you have been wanting
to do this episode for a while, so I'm so
happy we found you. So can you talk with us
(16:49):
first about what is equine therapy?
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Yeah, So, equine assistant psychotherapy is an experiential therapy treatment
that's so far have been proven to increase self efficacy, selfacy,
positive identity in individuals along with helping them reduce symptoms
of depression and anxiety. And basically it's a form of
therapy that involved working with forces instead of just regular
(17:15):
talk therapy.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
So, doctor Carter, I feel like there are so many
places I want to go based on what you just shared.
So something that you know, I had been thinking about,
but you just reminded me of is this whole idea
around trauma and how we also saw that play out
in the Olympics. Right, So we found out later that
Shakarrie Richardson's mother had passed, and you know, it sounds
like a part of how she was coping with that
(17:49):
grief was through marijuana. And then we also later found
out that Simone Bows had an aunt that passed while
she was in Tokyo and that she was also car
this experience of being a victim of sexual assault, right,
and so, you know, I wonder if you can talk
a little bit about you know, we know just on
(18:09):
a regular basis, like how we just try to go
to work from day to day dealing with a traumatic experience.
But then you're, like you said, on this world stage,
the world stadium, expected to perform with these traumatic experiences
kind of under your built.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
So where do I start here? Because part of the
strong Black woman this image is that it's a very
controlling image that is used to tell Black women how
they're supposed to behave, right, that if you're not behaving
like a strong black woman, then you were not engaging
(18:46):
in the appropriate form of black woman shoulds. And the
reason why I'm starting my response that way is because
I think it shed some light into one of the
criticism that Simone Biles receive, as well as some be
side eyeing that Shakari Richardson received. Right. So, if the
strong Black woman, the ways in which it's used to
(19:07):
control Black femininity and Black womanhood is that you are
supposed to absorb trauma, absorb the hardships of life, and
wear it in some form of kind of mass grace
and form of grace. And that is a badge of glory,
a badge of honor. Then the moment that you say
(19:29):
I don't want this badge, then that means that you're
not being a woman, You're not being a graceful Black woman.
Then that's the problem. So when it comes to Simone
Biles and Shakari Richardson, you see Simon Bile saying, look,
I'm an athlete, I'm a performer. One of the things
(19:50):
I like about Simon Biles is that she's very clear
that her profession is an athlete, and there's so many
other aspects to her that are outside of her as
an athlete in this privileged profession. And so in understanding
that she says, look, my role as an athlete is
(20:12):
not to assume this idea of being a strong black
woman and to persevere to the pain that I'm holding
right now, as well as this narrative that I'm supposed
to be the mammy of all of the survivors and
all the victims of USA Gymnastics. That is not my
role here. And I am actually feeling in this moment
(20:37):
the kind of sumb of all of that right now
in the Olympics, and it's time for me to take
a step back that is her being a human being
and just living in her humanity. But unfortunately, what the
strong black woman's trope and ideal does is it dignifies
black women and it doesn't allow them to live in
(20:59):
their humanity. So when Simone Bile does this, people who
see her through that lens are confused. They I think
a few things happen. I think they say, wait, you're bionic.
You're not, You're vulnerable, you feel things. Wait, you experience trauma.
(21:20):
So that first thing happens, and I think a second
thing happens is a disbelief that wait, not only do
you experience a form of trauma, or not only are
you experiencing the twisties or something like that, but are
you really can you really just not push through and
(21:42):
do this? Because you're bionic and as a superwoman, you're
also a fixer. You're the one that just figures it out,
even in the face of so much hardship and challenge,
you as a black woman, are designed to figure it out,
and you're telling us you can't. I don't believe you.
(22:03):
And the same that hadn't happened with Shikari Richardson. You
mean that the way that you coped with this news
and this situation was with marijuana. No, you're a black woman,
You're just supposed to be able to do things without
any additional support. You can just figure it out. And
(22:24):
so being held so rigidly in that controlling image when
women black women act outside of it, what happens when
people use that lens is that they marginalize them. And
we see Shakari Richardson marginalized, and we see some mobiles
criticized and marginalized. Mm hmm. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
And can you talk a little bit more about this
idea that you mentioned earlier, Samon Biles, is like we
were all rooting for them, right, Can you talk about
like some of that added pressure of feeling like they
have to represent not only the US, which has not
typically been kind to them, right, but also like, Okay,
I got to represent the black community on.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
My back, gosh. I mean, I think that's the story
of black athletes since the since the creation of sport
and the integration of sport in the US, the representations
that they are the representatives of all black people. And
I think for black women athletes, it is not only
(23:23):
I am just choosing happenings, not only my representing the
black community and black women. But I also have to
I also have to navigate this form of classist, racist,
and sexist respectibility, the idea of a graceful black woman
within a system that is reinforcing this, this subtle but
(23:48):
aggressive form of ownership of the athletes. Navigating all of
this and remaining a political sport is wonderful at maintaining
a space of neutral It's all a sport, like, there's
no identity here. There's no identity. Politics. Sport is where
it's just you and competition and nowhere else. And so
(24:11):
black women have to navigate the pressure, the burden of
representing black community and being tokenized as a black woman athlete,
yet not being allowed to speak on the very things
they're being tokenized for. It's a hard space to be in,
(24:32):
a hard place to be in. And like kudos for
like Simone Biles, the way in which she navigates it,
Like I don't even know how she does it. You know,
I think we've seen Alison Felix when she broke heris
silence with Nike around maternity protections. I mean, I think
she said, you know, I had enough of trying to
(24:53):
navigate this very oppressive dance and this sport and this
industry that is not an never going to love me back.
And I think that it really became evident for her
when she was pregnant and realized that, hey, I'm not
getting any protection for me as a pregnant woman knowing
(25:13):
that the stakes are much higher as a black woman
that's pregnant, and Nike, the most powerful work company, can't
even find ways to protect me. So I think in
that realization for Allison's probably where you see where she said,
you know, and I'm not even going to do this anymore.
I'm done. M H.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Something that it feels like has been really instrumental, at
least in my advantage point is athletes like some Own
Biles and Naomia Soka really using social media and other
forms of like new media to kind of control the
narrative around what their story is. So have you seen that, Like,
do you feel like social media and other kind of
spaces of new media have really allowed them to humanize
(25:54):
themselves more?
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Yeah, I agree with you one. I mean I think
that social media, Twitter, Instagram, you know, TikTok. I think
these have been wonderful mechanisms for athletes to be able
to disrupt narratives that really are not authentic to who
(26:16):
the athlete is. And I think the story around Nyoma
and soccer is probably the best example. When she says, hey,
I'm not going to sit with the media, and initially
the narrative being scripted is that she is being a
defiant young biracial woman, right, and she then uses social
media to say, hey, that's not the case. You know,
(26:39):
the media is a trigger for me and this is why.
And I respect the rules and all that, but this
is why. So she's using social media to reshape and
disrupt a narrative that was being created not only by
sport media, but unfortunately by the World Tennis organism that
(27:00):
was also trying to create a narrative that she was
not being a cooperative athlete within the organization. I think
another thing that social media does is that it helps
unify athletes around a number of different political and advocacy
oriented topics. I mean, one thing about sports against sports
(27:21):
likes to be this a political space and this neutral space,
so oppression can really survive in silence. And I think
that when it comes to athletes and social media, they
can connect with each person's story, they can say wow,
you're going through this too. I didn't know because I
can't share my contract with you. I can't share what
(27:41):
this person said to me. Right, But now they can
use social media and say, yeah, this happened to me,
it happened to you, and now let's begin to create
a movement for change. I think the perfect example is
around the maternity protections. We saw that with Alison Felix
and Alicia Marcano.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Yeah, you know, like the World Tennis Organization's you know,
kind of the angle they were trying to spind there
with Naomi Osaka too. But it also feels like the media,
just in general, at least more traditional news outlets, it
also feels like play a real role in shaping these
narratives and really kind of playing into this idea of
the strong black woman.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Absolutely, I agree. Yeah, I mean the media is really
good at crafting a number of different racist, sexist tropes
and stereotypes of black women. I mean we saw them.
I think that was in twenty eighteen when Serena challenged
a call. They were very quick to typecast her and
(28:40):
she was actually characters as an angry black woman on
the tennis court, right because she was acting outside of again,
what is supposed to be or what particularly in tennis
is supposed to be typecasted as a traditional form of
femininity and so and then for black women, she's just
was to just take it right. And so because she
(29:02):
said no, this is not a good call. Okay, now
we're going to marginalize her and typecast her as an
angry at attitude y black woman. And so the media
does an unfortunate yet good job of quickly typecasting black women,
black women as some form of oppositional, angry superhuman or
(29:24):
even at times does abelling black women.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
M Yeah, all of the stereotypes.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Yeah, we're some form of controlled image that they like
to play us into, which really just indignifies and does
a job of reducing our humanity, if not removing it.
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
More from our conversation after the break. So, doctor Carter,
you know, I haven't fully formed my thoughts on this,
but there's something swirling around in my mind around like
resisting these superhuman attributes and like not playing into the
(30:05):
strong black women stereotype, but also balancing that with like
how incredible like some black women athletes are. Right, So
I think we have seen this both with Simone Biles
and historically if we go back to Soraya Bonilly, so
they both i think have been penalized for like coming
up with these new moves that the Olympics and people
(30:27):
don't want them to do and so they don't grade
them the same, and they're like, Okay, you're gonna get
in trouble if you do that, So can you help
me think through how do you balance you know, because
there feels like something racist, they are also right racist
and gendered, and that these two women have been able
to kind of do things that other people haven't been
able to do but now are penalized for that.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
I think the first thing is that I'm just thinking
about the strong black women and this idea of like
positioning black women as superhuman and then connecting it too
or there's like this line there where when we look
at women like Simone Biles where she's engaging in feet
that the average person cannot, so you're kind of like,
(31:10):
but she is like strong, she's doing things that like
she's the only woman in the world that can do it.
Probably very few men can do it as well, And
so there's that. But there's this piece in the book
forty million dollars slaves, where the author talks about when
we think about just racism and sports, there is a
(31:34):
dissonance that exists within this racist sports society that there
is an admiration for the feat that black athletes can do,
and in this context, black women athletes. So there's this
admiration like, wow, look at what Simone Biles can do,
Look at what Serena Williams can do. Right, But then
there's a resentment. We admire you and we are extracting
(31:59):
labor and entertainment from you because you are driving an
engine that it's profitable. Right. However, we hate that it's you. Mmm.
We hate that it's a black woman, and so we
don't know what to do with that. And so I
(32:23):
think that is where we see the underscoring of Simone
Viles when she's doing these terrific feats and other athletes
as well, where they, you know, don't give her the score.
I think for the vault that she did that is
named after her, I think they scored it like a
six ' six and she's like, they underscored me, But
that's on that, you know. I think that's where they're at.
(32:45):
It's this dissonance of like, wow, this is done and
admiring it, but a deep racist resentment that it's a
black woman that's done it.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Mm hmmm.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
It kind of goes back to our earlier conversation around
these rules, right, because what they say is like, well,
we don't want other people trying this because they could
really hurt themselves. But would the rule be the same if,
like a non black athlete had done it.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Absolutely not. And I mean the other thing here is
that we have to also look at this through the
frame of like also just general femininity, right, like what
does the woman look like who's doing this? And I
think an example is Castor Semenya, the South African runner,
whom unfortunately her biology has been police. And I think
(33:29):
we see the same things happen when we look at
other black women is with the same underscoring, the same
police scene of black women's Olympic seats and just general
performance occur they fit more Eurocentric feminine features, which would allow, unfortunately,
(33:50):
these governing bodies to kind of situate them more to
kind of white adjacent athletes and standards. That's alation, but
something that.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
I wonder mm hmmm, yeah, And I do wonder too
at what point are we going to get away from
looking at people's like what are they measuring? I don't
even remember all the specifics, but when they say, okay,
you have too many, you know, like it's too masculine
or something, right, Like, at what point is that going
to be outlawed really as a criteria for being able
(34:22):
to participate?
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Yeah, lots, we had a long way to go.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
I think we really have a long way to go.
I think another issue here too is that when we
think of the Moon Biles and Torida Williams and Naomi
Orsaka and Alison Felix, I think we also are see
the athletes who are beginning to transcend a system of
ownership and sport and being able to attain an element
(34:52):
of like free athletes, and so that is a quite
radical status to have, and I think it's also something
that's scared, you know, individuals who are in these controlling
governing bodies, particularly because they're black women.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Mm hmmm, mm hmm. It's also not lost on me
that it feels like a lot of these black women
who have done this and like who are kind of
leading this movement are largely in individual sports right, Like,
I feel like this is the kind of thing that
you probably would not see. I mean, we don't have
female football leagues, but like you couldn't see in the
NFL or the NBA, And we saw this even with
(35:27):
the WNBA, right like that they were really on the
front lines of like a lot of the social justice
movements we saw like in the past year or two.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Mm h Absolutely, I agree. When the WNBA players were
the ones to really first speak out and engage in
their different actions around advocacy, they received harsh signs, harsh
harsh sindes because it's still within the institution of the
NBA that they have to navigate collectively, and so I
do agree with you that it's far different for an
(35:56):
individual athletes to say no or do the things that
they would prefer to do, versus to have to really
navigate a different type of systems.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Mm hmmm. So you've already kind of alluded to this,
doctor Carter, but I'd love to just hear you expound
a little more about what you feel like this moment
in sports, with all the things that we've seen in
the saying no and setting boundaries, what do you think
this means for like black women's mental health.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Yeah, you know. I think the first is that I
think in general, I think the world is waking up
when it comes to generally like racism and sexism in
the world. But I think this particular moment is like
a like y'all, like y'all see this right, Like you know.
So I think that one just the aha moments that
(36:47):
people are having because just around the racist and sexist
oppression that exists, and how it's demonstrating the criticism that
Naomi and Sokka and Loanbiles received, how people are waking
up to that. It's just so crucial. The other thing
here is that it speaks to the pressure that athletes
(37:10):
experience in general, and that athletes need space to be
able to institute and constitute boundaries. This idea that sport
is one hundred percent healthy and I'm not saying that
it's detrimental to health, but that it's a workplace environment,
and that we need to begin to situate professional sport
(37:32):
as a workplace environment. And for elite athletes when they say, hey,
I need a day off, you know, I need a
six day then it needs to be treated that way,
not as someone being enslaved to a system that is
just that like this. This is not an athlete being
(37:54):
enslaved to a system. This is an employee. And they're
saying that they need a six day And so there
needs to be rules and policies that really begin to
create a healthy workplace environment for our elite athletes that
way they can care for themselves long terms in a
variety of ways. The other thing is that we've got
(38:16):
to be able to protect our elite athletes from fans
and from media. This idea that they have to engage
with media, this idea that they have to perform even
at their potential detriment to their own physical and psychological safety,
is deeply inappropriate. We wouldn't make any other person do that,
and so why would we have that for elite athletes
(38:38):
to deeply, deeply, deeply troubling to me and I'm sure
everyone else. And so this is a crucial time just
when it comes to the institution of professional elite sports,
but then when we bring it down to college sports
and high school sports, I think this is a great
and important time to be talking about psychological health and
well being with youth athletes and high school athletes that hey,
(39:03):
look at Simone Biles in Naomi of Soccer and even
Michael Phelps, like, we're the conversation about what mental health is,
what mental illnesses, talking to coaches about having a dynamic
way of coaching that supports youth development holistically, particularly for
young black girls. Now is the time to really lean
(39:26):
into this because what should be a place where kids
are learning, you know, the ads and c's of life,
you know, sport in life, and if we can bring
that to our young black girl the way they go
into healthy Black girls. Using Simone Biles in the Naomi
of Soccer says, you know, hey, look she said no,
she said her health first, and you can say that too.
(39:48):
I'm getting chills just even thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Mm hmmmmmmm. So, doctor Carter, you already mentioned forty million
dollars slave as a reference point for some of this conversation.
Are there other books or other resources that you would
want to offer to the community that they may enjoy
kind of based on what you've shared today.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yeah, you know, I got to shout out my book.
It is a rufic edited volume feminist Applied sports Psychology
from sery to practice. In that book, we really run
down there's a section where we're just black feminist politics
and sport. Everything we just talked about in this podcast.
Also we go into indigenous based and indigenous practicism sport,
(40:28):
as well as the experiences of trans athletes and trans
women in sport. So if you're interested in the diversity
of sport but to a feminist, womanist and black feminist lens,
please pick up the book. It's a great book.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Perfect, And where can we find you, doctor Carter? What
is your website as well as any social media handles
you'd like to share.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
You know, I was going to say you can find
me outside, but we cannot. You can find me at
doctor Leijia on Instagram. You can also find me at
my nonprofit which is Coalition Underscore Equity, and also at
(41:08):
www dot Coalitionequity dot org. Perfect.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
We'll be short to include that in the show notes. Well,
thank you so much for spending some time for us today,
doctor Carter. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
No, it's my pleasure, and thank you for the great
conversation and some of the last in between.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
I'm amazed at how timely and relevant that conversation with
doctor Carter continues to be to learn more about her
and her work. Visit the show notes at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot com slash Session three seventy two, and don't
forget to text two of your girls and tell them
to check out the episode right now. If you're looking
for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory
(41:51):
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if
you want to continue digging into this topic or just
being community with other sisters, come on over and join
us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of
the Internet designed just for black women. You can join
us at Community dot therapyfro blackgirls dot com. This episode
was produced by Elise Ellis and Zaria Taylor. Editing was
(42:14):
done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining
me again this week. I look forward to continuing this
conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
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