November 12, 2025 • 45 mins
This week on the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, we’re wrapping up the Sibling Sit-Down limited series with a heartfelt and nostalgic conversation featuring Sarah Amos and Reverend Shawn Amos. We explored the depth of their sibling bond, how their shared history shaped their identities, and the ways they’ve supported one another through both grief and growth. The conversation also touches on themes of healing, creativity, and family legacy, reminding us of the ways siblings can both challenge and anchor us on our personal journeys.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for Session four thirty seven and the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after word from our sponsors. This week, we're wrapping
up our Siblings sit down series with a heartfelt and
(01:18):
nostalgic conversation featuring Sarah Amos and Reverend Sean Amos. Together,
we explore the depth of their sibling bond, how there's
shared history shaped their identities, and the ways they've supported
one another through both grief and growth. The conversation also
touches on themes of healing, creativity, and family legacy. Reminding
(01:40):
us of the way siblings can both challenge and anchor
us on our personal journeys. If something resonates with you
while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social
media using the hashtag TVG in Session, or join us
over in our Patreon channel. To talk more about the episode,
you can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls
dot Com. Here's our conversation. Well, I'm very excited to
(02:06):
be chatting with you. Thank you so much for joining
me today. Sarah and Reverend Sean, thank.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
You, thank you. We're happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Yeah. So, for people who may not be familiar, Sarah,
can you tell us a little bit about who you are.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
I'm Sarah Amos, and I am the host of a
new podcast called Tough Cookie The Wally Famous Amos Story.
I am a producer and journalist by trade and my
day job. And I am also the daughter of Wally Amos,
hence the podcast. But most importantly for today's purposes and
(02:40):
I'm gonna toss it over. I am also the sister
of Reverend Shawn Amos.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
I'm Sarah's sister Sean brother Sean. Yeah, sometimes I feel
like I'm am my sister. I have a strong feminine side.
I am Sarah, Sarah's older brother Sean. People call me Rev.
I'm known as the Reverend Shawn Amos because I'm a
blues singer and I perform under the name of the
Reverend Shawn Amass. So the longer I've done it, some
(03:11):
people call me Sean, some people call me Rev. And
depends on what you call me is a giveaway how
long you've known me. I'm the youngest son of Wally
Famous Amos. We have two older brothers, and yeah, that's
me beautiful.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
So I love their transition to throwing to your brother, Sarah.
I wonder if you can all get us started by
just talking to us a little bit about what your
relationship was like when you were younger children.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
I am from my dad's third marriage and I'm fifteen
years younger than Sean, and my relationship with each of
my siblings was a little bit different, and growing up,
I was definitely the closest to Sean. In the podcast,
I jokingly refer to all of my siblings as the
(04:00):
guest stars and the sitcom of my life because they
would come in and out and Sean. I would say,
Sean probably was like less of a guest star and
more of a recurring character. He was not a regular
on the sitcom, but he showed up with enough regularity
that we always had a relationship that.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
I knew was there.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
But in the younger years of my life, definitely, I
think if you gut checked asked me, like, how would
you describe yourself? I think mostly I would still even then,
describe myself as an only child. It's not till I've
gotten older that I've started always describing myself as someone
who has siblings.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
It's interesting. I was living in Hawaii when Sarah was born,
So I moved to Hawaii and I'm so bad with years.
But our father, and that's interesting too. You'll notice there's
times when we say our father and there's times when
we say my father, and that's indicative of the kind
of the newness of seeing ourselves as having this sort
(05:02):
of shared experience. But our father asked me to move
to Hawaii with with Sarah's mother, Christine, my stepmother, before
Sarah was born, and so I lived with them for
a bit of time before Sarah was born, and when
she was born, I was really excited to be a
big brother because I'd been the youngest until then. In
(05:24):
my experience with our older siblings were similar to Sarah's.
They were the guest stars in my life, and only
they came in and beat the shit out of me
and then split, So it was it was a very
different kind of experience, and so I was really excited
to be a big sibling but also have a presence
in her life. And I really was looking forward to
(05:47):
crafting some kind of ongoing relationship and it didn't happen
because of my own troubles with our father, and I
ended up leaving Hawaii and sort of went down to
my own my journey so got in the way. But
it was all always really important for me to not
disappear on Sarah and to know, however, know that was
there even if it wasn't regularly. And I think over
(06:09):
the years we're just gotten closer and closer and closer
and closer, where I think we rely on each other
in a lot of really fundamental ways.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
So I want to get the kind of family dynamic
street So Shulone or Reverend Schaan, you are the only
child of your mother and your father.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
Correct, And then.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
There are two older brothers who have your father and
another mother, correct, and then Sarah, you are your father
and your.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Mother, correct, and then the two Then there were two
wives after my mother who had no children, and the
last wife he married, divorced, and remarried again. So it's
a lot of family dynamics.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Yeah, I mean, you know, families look all kinds of
different ways. For sure, they're definitely vitually got it. Okay.
So it sounds like you had been excited to be
a big brother and then things happen and you actually
were not there. It's like the big brother that you
dreamed about. But Sarah described you as being a regular character.
(07:10):
So at what frequency were you all seeing one another?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
It was like every couple of years.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
The thing that I will say that was great about
Sean is when he did come to visit. I have
like very specific memories, like he took me to an
Alani's more Set concert when I was like thirteen.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
And when he would come to town, he would always.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Bring a new girlfriend and I was always very excited
about the girlfriends and they were always very cool. I
have these memories of when he would come to town,
he would really be there and he called a bit
more than the other brothers. I think also just maybe
Dad was more still active in your drama, Sean. So
I think part of it also is I just had
a better front row seat sometimes to some of the
(07:55):
drama going on with you.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Maybe than Michael and Gregory. But there was a present there.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
And then it was when I went to college that
our relationship started to shift. And it's because both of
us really made a concerted effort. I chose USC in
Los Angeles in part because it was very close to
my grandparents, but also in part because it was close
to Sean, and we really made a concerted effort to
(08:21):
see each other on a very regular basis, even though
I was a college freshman and sophomore right and had
this busy life. But like we really from then on
always put our relationship as a priority.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
I feel like, yeah, for sure, Yeah, I saw it
as a big victory. When she decided to come to
LA for college was in the same town. That was
a big deal for me. Yeah, I want to leverage
that opportunity as much as possible. So I was starting
a young family, me and my own family around that
time or pret soon thereafter, so she had a place
(08:54):
to go to and she was sort of witnessing the
launch of my own family, and so it was a
good time. It was a good time, I think good.
That was definitely a turning point. I could offer some
to spend some brotherly advice from time to time. And
we also were starting to choose similar lines of work
in that and that we're both getting in the entertainment space.
(09:15):
And we've always been wired really similarly. We're both have
our father's work ethic, and we really value the notion
of just digging in deep to our work and being
pretty fearless about throwing ourselves into new spaces. And so
we had a lot in common. We had a lot
to talk about, and we had a lot of advice
(09:35):
to share with each other, and sort of we're each
other's We've always been really big cheerleaders for each other.
It's actually good.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
It's really funny.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
I have to say this because people often assume, even
though we're from different moms, that were actually from the
same mom, because Sean and I are so wired the
same in our work ethic, in our OCD, we actually
look very similar to the point where people often will
actually ask us like, oh, like, you guys must be really.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Close in age. Are you guys twins?
Speaker 3 (10:05):
And it is like a real testament to how well
Shawn Amos is aging that people often think that fifteen
year age gap doesn't exist at all and we are
just twin siblings. I've gotten that more than once from people.
So I want to go on the record as saying
Sean Amos's skincare routine. But it's such a testament to
like some of its nature and some of its nurture.
(10:27):
That like, our mothers are very very different people, and
our upbringing was very different, even though we had the
same father. But something about our personalities are just like
in lockstep with each other in a way that kind
of drives the rest of the family insane.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Hmmm, Like I want to hear more about that, But
I also want to hear what kinds of things have
really helped you to cultivate this close relationship as adults,
because that is a very intentional choice and it sounds
like something that was important on both of your parts.
What things have helped you to really be into about
creating this relationship with one another.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Look, it hasn't always been perfect. I think we we
Ebb and Flow, I think we were really close during college.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Then I moved when I was in college.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Then I moved to New York, and we probably distance
of physical space, we grew apart a little bit, and
when my parents were going through a divorce and Sean
was dealing with stuff with his own family and I
talked about some podcasts, like I really took a step
back from everyone in the family and was just kind
of like, I'm going to do my own thing, like
you guys all figure out your stuff. And I'm not
(11:34):
saying that was the right decision, but it was the
decision I made. And then circumstances brought us back together,
and Sean and I actually worked together for several years.
But then as things continue to like we we have
fallen out again and come back together again. And actually,
I think the podcast in a lot of ways has
actually re cemented things for the two of us, because
(11:56):
I think part of and I've never.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Said this to Sean, so we'll see if he had
agrees with me or not.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
I think part of what we started to struggle with
in the past couple of years was it was just
really hard for I think both of us to have
an honest conversation with the other one about what we
were feeling, and I think that was somewhat true for
like a lot of people in my family. It turns out,
and for whatever reason, us Amoses are wired that if
you put a microphone in front of us, we are
very transparent people. And so I think a lot of
(12:23):
things and conversations that we as a family should have
had over the last several years we had during the
making of this podcast. And part of that was also
just our dad passing away, right and what that brings
out of people. But I do think in the last
year Sean and I have become a lot closer because
of the process of dealing with our dad's death, but
(12:44):
also making this podcast and really having to go through
the past and talk about things and talk about things
that aren't even part of the podcast but are related
to feelings that came up during the recording of the podcast,
and it is. It's one of the things that I
am most grateful for in actually even making it.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Well.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
Kept it together over the years was work. We are
a family of workaholics, and we are a family who
finds it most easy. Were almost comfortable dealing with each
other when it's when work is sort of the connective
tissue that when that's providing the lubricant, and so a
lot of what kept us in touch and a lot
(13:27):
of things that we were vibing on and feel like
we're moving our relationship forward and bonding us. What was work,
Like Sara said, we worked together in the same company
for a while, and we had projects and and if
there's anything project related that you know, serting you a
gut check on still to this day, you know, she
calls me out vice versa, and so that's like a
real strong muscle for us. I think that the flip
(13:51):
side of it, and Sarah related to it, was that
I don't think that existed solely to avoid other stuff,
but it certainly been made it easy to avoid other stuff.
And so there were definitely some personal resentments and misunderstandings
and hurt feelings that were building up over the years.
It wasn't even to say like on some level we
(14:13):
knew what was happening and we made a constant decision
not to talk about it. I think that in some
respects were so emotionally underdeveloped that we didn't even know,
you know, it was happening, we should be speaking about it.
It wasn't like we're consciously like, I'm not going to
talk to her anymore. It was just something was we
couldn't eve identify within ourselves. And and yeah, the death
(14:34):
of a parent will give you a lot of gifts
as well as you know, do a number on yourhead.
And when our father died, and even I was seen
before that, I mean he when he when his dementia
came on, and it was clear that Sarah and I
were going to step up and do our best to
manage that to our best of our abilities. That was
(14:56):
really the beginning of, oh, we have like a personal
relationship renounced in addition to working relationships with each other.
And that was the beginning of both having different types
of conversations that we didn't have and also working extra
hard to avoid conversations at the same time. And so
I think I would view that moments like the turning
(15:18):
point where Okay, we're talking about stuff other than work now,
and our relationship is about more than just our common
love and our common approach to our professional lives. We've
got this personal thing to deal with and that made
it even more that begin that was a bit of
a juggling act. I think for us and I don't
know if we and it probably wasn't sustainable until his doubt.
(15:40):
I think if you were still alive, we might have
still been dancing around some stuff we shouldn't have been
dancing around. And then he passes away and the ball
just shatters to the ground, right, And so you've got
a lot of stuff to now you just can't avoid
talking about anymore. And her podcast has absolutely been a
gift and a major vehicle for a lot of healing
(16:01):
crowd not only between us but within the whole family.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
More from our conversation after the break. So, one of
the things that families often struggle with is caregiving. Right,
So somebody becomes ill in the family and there's this
discussion or maybe lack of discussion amongst the siblings about
(16:27):
like who is stepping up in like what everybody's responsibility
is going to be. And it sounds like you said,
Reverend Sean, that you and Sarah kind of say like, Okay,
this is going to be on us. I wonder what
was that conversation like with your siblings or was there
a conversation around where everybody's responsibility was going to be
in terms of caregiving.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
I think it's Sarah's story to tell more than mine.
But I think that we talked about the outset, you know,
our typical American family that has four siblings from three marriages,
and I think that the child lenges of a family
like that, it makes all conversations very easy to avoid,
(17:08):
and it makes all conversations pretty tenuous. So there's no
family meetings, there's no like sitting around the table together,
and yeah, that doesn't exist at all. So I think
it's a lot of it is. Part of it's like
everyone looking at you can do it, You're gonna do it,
You're gonna do it. It's a lot of waiting for
someone to step up in some respects. I think a
lot of it is. I think I'm gonna set Sarah
(17:31):
up now. I think Sarah has had something to prove
for a long time, and she talked about in the
podcast she had something to prove as being the best kid,
and by best, being the kid who's gonna step up
for our father despite whatever challenges she have had with him.
Who's my brother's knife. All had periods of time where
we've not spoken with our father, where the pain or
the disruption of relationship has been too great. And Sarah
(17:54):
was gonna be the perfect kid, and I think being
the perfect kid meant there was no doubt she was
she wasn't gonna do anying butt step up and take
this role. I think to some degree I joined in
her in that because it was the big brother role
that I wanted to play. It's like, going back to
the beginning, I'm gonna be a bigger brother and I'm
not gonna let her go to anything alone that I
(18:15):
can help. And she's got husbands, you've got a family
of her own, but there's a role of a big brother,
and so I viewed I sort of put my feelings
aside to make sure that she wasn't doing this alone.
But I think a lot of it was fueled by
her wanting to play this part that she's been wanting
to play for a long time. Sarah, what do you think?
Speaker 3 (18:33):
Yeah, no, look, look, I think this is one of
the main reasons I wanted to make the podcast, and
what I hope is one of the things that people
find the most useful about it. And actually I've already
heard from people listening to just the first couple episodes,
which doesn't even get like this part of the family
drama really comes towards the end of the podcast in
(18:53):
episodes five and six, but I think Sean is.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Spot on right.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
I'd always kind of played the role of dutiful daughter,
and in my mind, being a good caregiver, being a
good daughter, being a good family member meant that you
told a person you love them, that you always took
their calls, that you tried to provide for them financially right,
that you made the choices that made sure they were okay.
(19:22):
And I think in the process of making this podcast,
I've learned two very important things.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
One is that yes, all of those.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Things are important, but if there isn't real intention and meaning,
an emotional connection behind it, then it is also to
some degree performative. And when your parent passes away, you
can feel that you've done all the right things, but
if you don't have the conversations, if you don't really
work on your relationship with them, then you might realize
(19:53):
that you gave a form of caregiving, but you did
not perhaps give exactly the form of caregiving for what
you intended or want once they have passed. I think
the second thing that I learned in making this podcast
and in just in the last several years of our
lives in dealing with what we dealt with my dad
(20:14):
and our family is that there is we are so
good at the early stages of life. There are a
million manuals on how to raise a baby. You can
find thirty seven different technique books alone on sleep training,
but you can barely find five well recommended books on
(20:37):
how to take care of an elderly patient, an elderly
parent with dementia.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
And I think we.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
As a society focused so much on the early years
of life that we have completely forgotten about the later years.
And it is hard to take care of an aging parent,
And it is hard to suddenly find yourself in the
role of parenting your own parent, and it is hard
for your parent to suddenly be parented by their children.
(21:07):
That is a hit to an ego and a self that,
like I now in putting myself in my dad's shoes,
like understand is difficult and is not something that everyone
is going to accept with grace. And how everyone deals
with being a caregiver is different. And how two of
our brothers needed to deal with it, both emotionally and financially,
(21:30):
was very different than what Sean and I could give,
and we all just accepted that from each other. But
I do think people just aren't prepared for parents getting old,
and they're not prepared for how much work it's going
to be, both financially, both just labor wise, and then
also emotionally. And I think this podcast for me has
(21:57):
allowed me to let go, at least part, not entirely yet,
of some of the guilt I realized I was holding
when our dad died, that I felt about some of
the choices I made along the way that were choices
that I at the time thought I was making with
the best of intentions, but in retrospect realized I was making,
(22:21):
you know.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
For not always the right reason. And so it is.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
It has been a process working through what was the
process of caregiving.
Speaker 5 (22:30):
And the we're.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
Performative is so perfect, right, like what you do as
a performative act versus giving has so many different layers
to it, right, And then they're thinking that she was
talking as you were talking to I was thinking about
as just like any unresolved bag as you've got with
your parent will come back to bite you in the
ass when they're towards end their lives. If you've got
unchecked things you're pissed off about or heard about, or
(22:54):
abandonment issue, whatever it is, it all comes right to
the surface and it starts to inform your caregiving on
some wellvel, whether you know it or not. And so
when people talk about, you know, the care that caregivers need,
and a lot of that emphasis is on making sure
that they're reading properly themselves, are getting proper rest and
getting a break in through the physical grueling nature of it.
(23:18):
It's the emotional piece too. It's like, you know, you're
sitting there next to an eighty something little parent and
as you're sitting next to him, you know you're a
five year old kids sitting next to him. That's deep.
And so it is the emotional and the psychological support
too that's needed along the way because I think there
were certainly times I think when we were absolutely doing
(23:39):
our best, but we're probably at times doing our best
is as kids, you know, versus adults, because we were
thrown back and to an over time and we hadn't
really dealt with.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
You both have a referenced the issues that you feel
like really came to a head after your father is
passing that you Sarah talked about feeling like has helped
you to become closer. Is there any conversation or maybe
difficult conversation that you all had that you feel like
really led to like, Oh, this unlocked a new level
to our relationship that you'd feel comfortable sharing.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
I mean, actually, and look, you'll hear this conversation play
out in the last episode of the podcast, which really
deals with the end of our dad's life. I think
it was really helpful for me to talk to my
brothers about how I was frustrated when our dad was
(24:35):
in a coma and was in the ICU and I
was there by myself, And it wasn't me saying I'm
mad at you and I want you to apologize, but
it was me feeling better just being able to voice
that by being there and being by myself and understanding
why they.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Weren't there for a variety of reasons.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
It did still take me back to being that little
girl who was growing up in Hawaii by herself and
like felt like she've had family but didn't. And it
wasn't again, it wasn't about needing anyone to say anything
or apologize or change anything. But it was just really
nice to be able to voice that, have them hear it,
(25:17):
and like have that just be a real conversation that
we could have and sit in and like experience together.
I think that was really key to bringing us all closer.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
I think we're still learning, and even still, I think
we're just now learning how to be a family. I
think we have very This is very new for all
of us because we all grew up in three because
our older brothers are part of the same not say
biological mother. We four kids grew up in three separate homes.
(25:53):
Is only children, And like Sarah said perfectly the top
of this thing, you know, we're all guest stars and
each other's lives and this idea of what family means
is a new concept. And we've all made our attempts
to start our own families, to have our do overs
bring into our lives as adults we didn't have as children,
(26:15):
to varying degrees of success. But as far as each other,
this blood family, it's new and so we're still figuring
it out. And I think there's a lot of only
children act in a certain way right and on doing
those kinds of habits. Sincero's podcasts like we had a
father who buys own admission, put himself first, and put
(26:38):
his career first, and put his desires first, as many
successful people do, of all career types and all race,
creed and nationalities. But you learn from that, right you
learn how to throw in the towel and things get rough,
and you learn how to have a be okay if
you're going to put your thing about someone else's and
not to dip out when things get a little comfortable.
(27:01):
And you know, I think we're all learning how to
trust that we will all be there for each other
the funeral. We're always my tough guts and we're also
tough the conversation gets and that we can have tough
conversations and still be okay. That's near for us.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
You know, Rover Sean, you described kind of being a
workaholic as a family trait, right, like that that is
something that is really a value that has become a
part of your family. But I also, I'm not always valuable,
but not always valuable, but definitely there. But I also
hear you saying that you know that Dad kind of
shared like, hey, this kind of was my priority. I
(27:38):
wonder what hearing him talk about that has maybe if anything.
Has it shifted your relationship to work for both of
you given that you know you kind of see maybe
some of them not so great side of kind of
work always being the priority.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
There's a great moment in her podcast when her husband
Greg talks about Sarah always being on her phone, you know,
at events and just and not not being present and
Sarah and he is saying it to Sarah. Sarah's like
realizing this in real time, Like I did never even
dawn on her until this moment, at the exact same
(28:13):
moment mine wasn't recorded for a podcast. It's a safe space, man, Yeah,
it's a safe space. It's a space where we can
control things, a space where we feel like we're being
of service. And it's one of the great It's one
of those sort of most insidious isms, right because if
you're an alcohol if you have alcoholism or you know,
drug addiction, it's obvious how it's gonna screw things up.
(28:33):
The evidence is all over the place. But if you're
a workaholic, he provide for your family, you know this out,
but pays for the vacations and the rent and the
blah blah blah. Man. So it's a hard one. To
give grief about on some level, right, But it's a
great way to avoid stuff. Yeah, it's a great way
to avoid the hard stuff. So I am still a
recovering workaholics. Yeah, yeah, what do you think my workaholics sister?
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Look, our dad instilled in us and talk to us
about the importance of working hard and doing your best.
But so much of what we learned from him in
terms of a workaholic nature was never a conversation we
had with him. It is what we saw, right. He
traveled seventy five percent of the year when I was
(29:19):
a kid in Hawaii. Most of my memories of him
were picking him up from the airport or dropping him off.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
At the airport.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
So it starts less with even the conversations you have
and more with the actions you show. And your kids
pick that up from day one and Seanas spot on
and look, it is one of the It is one
of the things I am most grateful for in the podcast,
But certainly not one of the things I set out
to discover when I started is how much I was
(29:50):
turning into my father without me even realizing it, right,
And it took my lovely, patient, wonderful husband and others
to start to describe me back to myself and realize,
oh wow, there's a lot of Wally in here inadvertently.
But it is in every everyday conversations.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Sean is spot on.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
It is an everyday conversation of me checking myself.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
And you want the hit man, right. I mean, it's
like it's like a societal thing, right, We're all just
wired for more and more and more and more and more.
And you know, Sara has made this podcast and it's
a beautiful piece of work, and of course she's going
to do ever think she can do to promote it,
and she should and so you know, and then you
get trained to think like every offer you gets, the
last offer then to come around and you jump at everything,
(30:36):
and we're just conditioned to say yes to everything. But yeah,
I think it's a it's a daily negotiation.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
It is.
Speaker 4 (30:44):
It is a daily negotiation.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
More from our conversation after the break. So, Sarah, you've
kind of talked about there being a family culture of
not talking about things you know publicly, yet you have, now,
it seems, convince your brothers to do this very public podcast.
(31:10):
Wasn't that a hard sale? And talk about like how
the podcast and the making of the podcast has impacted
your relationship with your siblings.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
It was not a hard sell at all, and I'm
very grateful and will always appreciate that fact. I called
each of my brothers individually and asked them if they
were cool with me doing this, and I called my
mom to and I said, if everyone isn't okay with this,
I won't do it. And everyone was entirely supportive from
(31:40):
the first moment. And Sean was so supportive that he
also provided his deep catalog of music, which is actually
what the entire podcast is scored to, and the theme
song is one of my favorite songs by Sean. So
Sean went above and beyond in helping. But no, I
think this this podcast only worked if everyone in the
(32:02):
family was open to it and willing to be a
part of it, because at the end of the day,
this was as much about kind of helping cement the
right type of legacy for not just our dad but
our family as it was about me just working through stuff.
(32:24):
And I can't work through stuff if no one in
the family wants to work through it with me, then
it's just me talking into a void. And God bless
no one needs that, so everyone was spot on from
day one, and then it was really just about doing
the work right and digging in and having the conversations.
And again that was really my family stepping up and
(32:45):
not just having the to say what we were talking about.
The performative conversation. Right, there's a version of these interviews
that could have been really just surface and really just like,
let's talk about the things that are already out there,
let's talk about the police stuff. But instead, like all
of my family really went to places that were uncomfortable
(33:06):
and talked about things that have hurt and chaos and
trauma associated with them and did so in beautiful ways.
And that is a huge gift that they all graciously
gave to me.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
There's such a media landscape now that rewards and presumes
that these types of you know, behind the scenes, you know,
revelations will all be exploitative or it's about selling scores
or retribution or this kind of thing, or that the
motives are about money or about gore settling. And it's
(33:49):
such a tribute to our father that, like, none of
his sins are so great that we don't all want
to be standing together and saying what an amazing duty
was and that he had his challenges like we all do.
Some of them are so easy to understand if you
know anything about Black America and if you know anything
about men in Black America. Great phrase I learned about.
(34:13):
We are guilty, but not to blame, and he's guilty
of much, but if you know anything about his life
and where he came from, he is so not to blame.
And I think the greatest testament to him is that
these four kids from three marriages, you know, consider themselves
family and wanted to come together and tell a story
(34:34):
about their father that would heal themselves and hopefully help
others heal. And it's just to me Sarah has put
together like the greatest tribute possible dem thanks Sean.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
It's also funny. I want to say, we're a very
funny family, and so I think we've talked a lot
about the emotions and the struggles and all of that
is very real, but we are also a hilarious bunch
of people, and so we honor our dad, who was
also very funny when he wanted to be in this podcast.
It is a mix of tears and laughter in a
(35:15):
way that like is what I love about the Amos family.
We can all cry one moment and then bust out
laughing the next, and that is what I think a
great family is.
Speaker 4 (35:25):
Yeah, it's really it's about resilience. Yeah, I mean he
was a resilient dude, for sure. I think Black Americans
are some of the most resilient people on Earth, and
I think that we are profoundly resilient family, and I
think hopefully that does all of service to people.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
So, Sarah, I read a piece from you, and you
both have already talked about how therapeutic it was to
complete the podcast, which you talked about like, oh, these
are probably also things I should be talking to my
therapist about. But I'm curious about the role that therapy
has played in both of your, maybe individual lives, but
maybe even in your relationship as siblings.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
Yes, Sarah, talking about the role therapies play in your.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
Life, I can now very firmly say, I am finally
going to therapy.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
Wow, breaking news, breaking news on the Doctor Joy podcasts.
Finally finally, who's going to therapy?
Speaker 2 (36:26):
I'm dabbling. I'm dabbling.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Look in the first episode of the podcast, very much
ends with me asking my husband, do you think I
should go to therapy, and him trying politely to be like, yes,
and God please, So now I'm going to a therapist.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
Have you actually made an appointment with a therapist.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
I've had several appointments already. I've had three appointments already.
I have my next appointment on Friday, and I don't know.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Man, I'm at the beginning of this journey.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
So we'll see, We'll see how it goes and how
I feel it's going to help me. But I'm very
proud of myself that, like I've got into this point
in the journey also, and this is like a testament
to how much more developed my nine year old daughter
is than I am.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
I told her, I was like.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
I've made an appointment to go see a therapist, and
she goes, whoo, good for you.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
I've already been seeing one.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Like she was so deeply unimpressed with making an appointment.
She was like, Okay, good for you, but yeah, I
am happy on doing it. I think it's going to
be great for me. I should have done it sooner.
I fully fully admit it. And people should not be
afraid of therapy, or more importantly, people should make time
(37:46):
for therapy.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
That was my thing.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
I was never afraid of it. It was just my
workaholic nature. No, I really do think with my workaholic
nature was like, I know what's wrong with me. I
don't need someone to fix it. I am fully functional
without fixing it. This is too low of a priority.
And I recognize, I now recognize that like that may
(38:11):
not be healthy.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
That's called what's your relationship with therapy?
Speaker 4 (38:16):
Long and hard, long, hard, arduous, And I'll be back tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
We love a standing up plane.
Speaker 4 (38:25):
And you've got a father like mine and uh a
mother like mine. Therapy is the first, second, and last destination.
So yes, lots of therapy that is just been in
essential blue dolment together over the years, for sure.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
So I'm aware as you both were talking that you know,
of course sibling relationships is a special kind of relationship,
but I think that cousins are also a very special relationship.
So I love to hear, maybe how are you being
intentional about like cultivating the cousin relationship for your keys
cousins through God?
Speaker 2 (39:03):
So our kids are very very close.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
So as Shawn alluded, when I started college, he had
just had his first kid and his daughter is now
in her twenties and lives in New York. And I mean,
is so close to my daughter that like their borderline siblings.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Depending on the day.
Speaker 4 (39:27):
Yeah, that's beeutiful.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
And I think I was a very intentional and to
all three of his kids and really made a point
even when I.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Moved to New York to be present.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
And my husband and I've been together for twenty years,
so he's been a very intentional uncle since day one.
And so I do think for Sean and I we've
really made sure that our kids have a deep cousin relationship.
And I actually think in recent years we've been trying
to be better with our oldest brother Michael and his kids.
(40:00):
I think that cousin relationship there actually probably drifted more
than it should have, even with us just as aunts
and uncles. And you know, we were on a chain
actually with one of Michael's kids last week making dinner
plans coming up. And I do think again, it's this
(40:21):
great irony, right, Sometimes it takes someone passing to bring
the rest of a family together. But when our dad passed,
we had a memorial in New York and a lot
of the family, some of whom we hadn't seen in
fifteen twenty years. We all came together for it, and
I think we all are trying to be much more
(40:44):
intentional about being in each other's lives in a way
that to be blunt, we just met we never have
in the past.
Speaker 4 (40:54):
There's a wonderful moment when Sarah was recording the podcast
and she calls me up from a subway platform and says,
we're from Gambia. We're from Gambia. I'm like, what say,
We're from Gandia.
Speaker 5 (41:09):
We talked about dad'side of the family from Gambia and
she found out this information doing an interview with one
of our cousins for the podcast, who had been sitting
on a ton of family history for ages and none
of us knew because we just haven't talked to one
another ever.
Speaker 4 (41:28):
It's unlocking literally our family history. This we need relationship
and to find her a point on the on the
memorial service, we we we made a point. We asked
all of our kids to so Michael or oldest brother's children,
my children, Sarah's daughter to speak at the top of
the memorial service and to welcome everyone. And it was
(41:51):
the first time that they had all stood together. It
was for some some of them they ever met. And
that was a real, all powerful binding agent, and it
was purposeful. And you know, we've very much have wanted to,
you know, set this new trajectory for our family where
(42:11):
there's pride in the family name, there's pride in the
family history, there's awareness of the family they started to
begin with us. And that this goes back to I
said earlier about you know, learning how to be a family, right,
because I think we've all been raised to believe that
we're all lone wolves, right, We're inted alone and we
got to you know, fight for what's ours and we
all come from these broken homes and you know, and
(42:33):
YadA YadA, and really it's like, can we retrain ourselves
to believe that we are more powerful together? You know
that this this this series of broken families and has
and steps and sort of dead end family clues. Can
we pull all those broken pieces together and create this
(42:54):
one strong family that that can provide for each other
emotionally and in all these different ways. And I think
that's a new experiment for us, but it seems to
be it seems to be going well so far. And
now that serves in therapy God knows what's Sky's the limit.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Sky's the limit. It's gonna be great.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Well, it has been such a treat to learn more
about both of you and your family. I know that
people will enjoy checking out the podcast and hearing even
more Sarah. Please tell us where we can stay connected
with you and where can we check out the podcast.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
You can check out the podcast anywhere that you get podcasts, Apple, Spotify, Audible,
Tough Cookie, The Wally Famous, Same As Story. New episodes
out every Wednesday, six episodes in total. It is a
great time. And you can find me, I mean hosting
that podcast. I don't have a massive social presence, so
you can find me there or maybe on Twitter, but
(43:52):
I don't really tweet, so I don't know. Just listen
to the podcast that find Me in the Ether.
Speaker 4 (43:57):
Got it?
Speaker 1 (43:57):
And Reverend Joe and way. Can we check out your
music and any other projects that you have going on?
Speaker 4 (44:01):
And you can find my music and you are listening
to music Apple, Spotify, ban Care Title or wherever you
listen to music, while I find some physical copies and
record stores here and there. You can find me at
sean ms dot com, shj w n AMLS dot com, perfect.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
We'll be sure to include all of that in the
show notes. Thank you both for spending some time with
me today. I appreciate it so great.
Speaker 4 (44:27):
Thanks a lot, Thank you.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
This has been wonderful.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
I'm so glad that Sarah and Reverend Sean were able
to join us for this conversation. I'm very happy that
we have concluded our Siblings sit down series where we
are celebrating connection, memory, and the beautiful bombs that shape
who we are. To learn more about them and their work,
be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot com slash session for thirty seven, and don't
(44:55):
forget to text this episode to two of your girls
right now and tell them to check it out. I
know that you could leave us a voicemail with your
questions or suggestions for the podcast. If you had topics
you'd like us to discuss, drop us a message at
Memo dot fm slash Therapy for Black Girls and let
us know what's on your mind. We just might feature
it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist
(45:16):
in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't forget to follow us
over on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls, and come
on over and join us in our Patreon channel at
community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com for exclusive updates,
behind the scenes content and more. This episode was produced
(45:36):
by Eleas Ellis Indichubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was done
by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me
again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation
with you all real soon. Take good care,
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for Session four thirty seven and the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after word from our sponsors. This week, we're wrapping
up our Siblings sit down series with a heartfelt and
(01:18):
nostalgic conversation featuring Sarah Amos and Reverend Sean Amos. Together,
we explore the depth of their sibling bond, how there's
shared history shaped their identities, and the ways they've supported
one another through both grief and growth. The conversation also
touches on themes of healing, creativity, and family legacy. Reminding
(01:40):
us of the way siblings can both challenge and anchor
us on our personal journeys. If something resonates with you
while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social
media using the hashtag TVG in Session, or join us
over in our Patreon channel. To talk more about the episode,
you can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls
dot Com. Here's our conversation. Well, I'm very excited to
(02:06):
be chatting with you. Thank you so much for joining
me today. Sarah and Reverend Sean, thank.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
You, thank you. We're happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Yeah. So, for people who may not be familiar, Sarah,
can you tell us a little bit about who you are.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
I'm Sarah Amos, and I am the host of a
new podcast called Tough Cookie The Wally Famous Amos Story.
I am a producer and journalist by trade and my
day job. And I am also the daughter of Wally Amos,
hence the podcast. But most importantly for today's purposes and
(02:40):
I'm gonna toss it over. I am also the sister
of Reverend Shawn Amos.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
I'm Sarah's sister Sean brother Sean. Yeah, sometimes I feel
like I'm am my sister. I have a strong feminine side.
I am Sarah, Sarah's older brother Sean. People call me Rev.
I'm known as the Reverend Shawn Amos because I'm a
blues singer and I perform under the name of the
Reverend Shawn Amass. So the longer I've done it, some
(03:11):
people call me Sean, some people call me Rev. And
depends on what you call me is a giveaway how
long you've known me. I'm the youngest son of Wally
Famous Amos. We have two older brothers, and yeah, that's
me beautiful.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
So I love their transition to throwing to your brother, Sarah.
I wonder if you can all get us started by
just talking to us a little bit about what your
relationship was like when you were younger children.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
I am from my dad's third marriage and I'm fifteen
years younger than Sean, and my relationship with each of
my siblings was a little bit different, and growing up,
I was definitely the closest to Sean. In the podcast,
I jokingly refer to all of my siblings as the
(04:00):
guest stars and the sitcom of my life because they
would come in and out and Sean. I would say,
Sean probably was like less of a guest star and
more of a recurring character. He was not a regular
on the sitcom, but he showed up with enough regularity
that we always had a relationship that.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
I knew was there.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
But in the younger years of my life, definitely, I
think if you gut checked asked me, like, how would
you describe yourself? I think mostly I would still even then,
describe myself as an only child. It's not till I've
gotten older that I've started always describing myself as someone
who has siblings.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
It's interesting. I was living in Hawaii when Sarah was born,
So I moved to Hawaii and I'm so bad with years.
But our father, and that's interesting too. You'll notice there's
times when we say our father and there's times when
we say my father, and that's indicative of the kind
of the newness of seeing ourselves as having this sort
(05:02):
of shared experience. But our father asked me to move
to Hawaii with with Sarah's mother, Christine, my stepmother, before
Sarah was born, and so I lived with them for
a bit of time before Sarah was born, and when
she was born, I was really excited to be a
big brother because I'd been the youngest until then. In
(05:24):
my experience with our older siblings were similar to Sarah's.
They were the guest stars in my life, and only
they came in and beat the shit out of me
and then split, So it was it was a very
different kind of experience, and so I was really excited
to be a big sibling but also have a presence
in her life. And I really was looking forward to
(05:47):
crafting some kind of ongoing relationship and it didn't happen
because of my own troubles with our father, and I
ended up leaving Hawaii and sort of went down to
my own my journey so got in the way. But
it was all always really important for me to not
disappear on Sarah and to know, however, know that was
there even if it wasn't regularly. And I think over
(06:09):
the years we're just gotten closer and closer and closer
and closer, where I think we rely on each other
in a lot of really fundamental ways.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
So I want to get the kind of family dynamic
street So Shulone or Reverend Schaan, you are the only
child of your mother and your father.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
Correct, And then.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
There are two older brothers who have your father and
another mother, correct, and then Sarah, you are your father
and your.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Mother, correct, and then the two Then there were two
wives after my mother who had no children, and the
last wife he married, divorced, and remarried again. So it's
a lot of family dynamics.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Yeah, I mean, you know, families look all kinds of
different ways. For sure, they're definitely vitually got it. Okay.
So it sounds like you had been excited to be
a big brother and then things happen and you actually
were not there. It's like the big brother that you
dreamed about. But Sarah described you as being a regular character.
(07:10):
So at what frequency were you all seeing one another?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
It was like every couple of years.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
The thing that I will say that was great about
Sean is when he did come to visit. I have
like very specific memories, like he took me to an
Alani's more Set concert when I was like thirteen.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
And when he would come to town, he would always.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Bring a new girlfriend and I was always very excited
about the girlfriends and they were always very cool. I
have these memories of when he would come to town,
he would really be there and he called a bit
more than the other brothers. I think also just maybe
Dad was more still active in your drama, Sean. So
I think part of it also is I just had
a better front row seat sometimes to some of the
(07:55):
drama going on with you.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Maybe than Michael and Gregory. But there was a present there.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
And then it was when I went to college that
our relationship started to shift. And it's because both of
us really made a concerted effort. I chose USC in
Los Angeles in part because it was very close to
my grandparents, but also in part because it was close
to Sean, and we really made a concerted effort to
(08:21):
see each other on a very regular basis, even though
I was a college freshman and sophomore right and had
this busy life. But like we really from then on
always put our relationship as a priority.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
I feel like, yeah, for sure, Yeah, I saw it
as a big victory. When she decided to come to
LA for college was in the same town. That was
a big deal for me. Yeah, I want to leverage
that opportunity as much as possible. So I was starting
a young family, me and my own family around that
time or pret soon thereafter, so she had a place
(08:54):
to go to and she was sort of witnessing the
launch of my own family, and so it was a
good time. It was a good time, I think good.
That was definitely a turning point. I could offer some
to spend some brotherly advice from time to time. And
we also were starting to choose similar lines of work
in that and that we're both getting in the entertainment space.
(09:15):
And we've always been wired really similarly. We're both have
our father's work ethic, and we really value the notion
of just digging in deep to our work and being
pretty fearless about throwing ourselves into new spaces. And so
we had a lot in common. We had a lot
to talk about, and we had a lot of advice
(09:35):
to share with each other, and sort of we're each
other's We've always been really big cheerleaders for each other.
It's actually good.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
It's really funny.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
I have to say this because people often assume, even
though we're from different moms, that were actually from the
same mom, because Sean and I are so wired the
same in our work ethic, in our OCD, we actually
look very similar to the point where people often will
actually ask us like, oh, like, you guys must be really.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Close in age. Are you guys twins?
Speaker 3 (10:05):
And it is like a real testament to how well
Shawn Amos is aging that people often think that fifteen
year age gap doesn't exist at all and we are
just twin siblings. I've gotten that more than once from people.
So I want to go on the record as saying
Sean Amos's skincare routine. But it's such a testament to
like some of its nature and some of its nurture.
(10:27):
That like, our mothers are very very different people, and
our upbringing was very different, even though we had the
same father. But something about our personalities are just like
in lockstep with each other in a way that kind
of drives the rest of the family insane.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Hmmm, Like I want to hear more about that, But
I also want to hear what kinds of things have
really helped you to cultivate this close relationship as adults,
because that is a very intentional choice and it sounds
like something that was important on both of your parts.
What things have helped you to really be into about
creating this relationship with one another.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Look, it hasn't always been perfect. I think we we
Ebb and Flow, I think we were really close during college.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Then I moved when I was in college.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Then I moved to New York, and we probably distance
of physical space, we grew apart a little bit, and
when my parents were going through a divorce and Sean
was dealing with stuff with his own family and I
talked about some podcasts, like I really took a step
back from everyone in the family and was just kind
of like, I'm going to do my own thing, like
you guys all figure out your stuff. And I'm not
(11:34):
saying that was the right decision, but it was the
decision I made. And then circumstances brought us back together,
and Sean and I actually worked together for several years.
But then as things continue to like we we have
fallen out again and come back together again. And actually,
I think the podcast in a lot of ways has
actually re cemented things for the two of us, because
(11:56):
I think part of and I've never.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Said this to Sean, so we'll see if he had
agrees with me or not.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
I think part of what we started to struggle with
in the past couple of years was it was just
really hard for I think both of us to have
an honest conversation with the other one about what we
were feeling, and I think that was somewhat true for
like a lot of people in my family. It turns out,
and for whatever reason, us Amoses are wired that if
you put a microphone in front of us, we are
very transparent people. And so I think a lot of
(12:23):
things and conversations that we as a family should have
had over the last several years we had during the
making of this podcast. And part of that was also
just our dad passing away, right and what that brings
out of people. But I do think in the last
year Sean and I have become a lot closer because
of the process of dealing with our dad's death, but
(12:44):
also making this podcast and really having to go through
the past and talk about things and talk about things
that aren't even part of the podcast but are related
to feelings that came up during the recording of the podcast,
and it is. It's one of the things that I
am most grateful for in actually even making it.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Well.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
Kept it together over the years was work. We are
a family of workaholics, and we are a family who
finds it most easy. Were almost comfortable dealing with each
other when it's when work is sort of the connective
tissue that when that's providing the lubricant, and so a
lot of what kept us in touch and a lot
(13:27):
of things that we were vibing on and feel like
we're moving our relationship forward and bonding us. What was work,
Like Sara said, we worked together in the same company
for a while, and we had projects and and if
there's anything project related that you know, serting you a
gut check on still to this day, you know, she
calls me out vice versa, and so that's like a
real strong muscle for us. I think that the flip
(13:51):
side of it, and Sarah related to it, was that
I don't think that existed solely to avoid other stuff,
but it certainly been made it easy to avoid other stuff.
And so there were definitely some personal resentments and misunderstandings
and hurt feelings that were building up over the years.
It wasn't even to say like on some level we
(14:13):
knew what was happening and we made a constant decision
not to talk about it. I think that in some
respects were so emotionally underdeveloped that we didn't even know,
you know, it was happening, we should be speaking about it.
It wasn't like we're consciously like, I'm not going to
talk to her anymore. It was just something was we
couldn't eve identify within ourselves. And and yeah, the death
(14:34):
of a parent will give you a lot of gifts
as well as you know, do a number on yourhead.
And when our father died, and even I was seen
before that, I mean he when he when his dementia
came on, and it was clear that Sarah and I
were going to step up and do our best to
manage that to our best of our abilities. That was
(14:56):
really the beginning of, oh, we have like a personal
relationship renounced in addition to working relationships with each other.
And that was the beginning of both having different types
of conversations that we didn't have and also working extra
hard to avoid conversations at the same time. And so
I think I would view that moments like the turning
(15:18):
point where Okay, we're talking about stuff other than work now,
and our relationship is about more than just our common
love and our common approach to our professional lives. We've
got this personal thing to deal with and that made
it even more that begin that was a bit of
a juggling act. I think for us and I don't
know if we and it probably wasn't sustainable until his doubt.
(15:40):
I think if you were still alive, we might have
still been dancing around some stuff we shouldn't have been
dancing around. And then he passes away and the ball
just shatters to the ground, right, And so you've got
a lot of stuff to now you just can't avoid
talking about anymore. And her podcast has absolutely been a
gift and a major vehicle for a lot of healing
(16:01):
crowd not only between us but within the whole family.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
More from our conversation after the break. So, one of
the things that families often struggle with is caregiving. Right,
So somebody becomes ill in the family and there's this
discussion or maybe lack of discussion amongst the siblings about
(16:27):
like who is stepping up in like what everybody's responsibility
is going to be. And it sounds like you said,
Reverend Sean, that you and Sarah kind of say like, Okay,
this is going to be on us. I wonder what
was that conversation like with your siblings or was there
a conversation around where everybody's responsibility was going to be
in terms of caregiving.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
I think it's Sarah's story to tell more than mine.
But I think that we talked about the outset, you know,
our typical American family that has four siblings from three marriages,
and I think that the child lenges of a family
like that, it makes all conversations very easy to avoid,
(17:08):
and it makes all conversations pretty tenuous. So there's no
family meetings, there's no like sitting around the table together,
and yeah, that doesn't exist at all. So I think
it's a lot of it is. Part of it's like
everyone looking at you can do it, You're gonna do it,
You're gonna do it. It's a lot of waiting for
someone to step up in some respects. I think a
lot of it is. I think I'm gonna set Sarah
(17:31):
up now. I think Sarah has had something to prove
for a long time, and she talked about in the
podcast she had something to prove as being the best kid,
and by best, being the kid who's gonna step up
for our father despite whatever challenges she have had with him.
Who's my brother's knife. All had periods of time where
we've not spoken with our father, where the pain or
the disruption of relationship has been too great. And Sarah
(17:54):
was gonna be the perfect kid, and I think being
the perfect kid meant there was no doubt she was
she wasn't gonna do anying butt step up and take
this role. I think to some degree I joined in
her in that because it was the big brother role
that I wanted to play. It's like, going back to
the beginning, I'm gonna be a bigger brother and I'm
not gonna let her go to anything alone that I
(18:15):
can help. And she's got husbands, you've got a family
of her own, but there's a role of a big brother,
and so I viewed I sort of put my feelings
aside to make sure that she wasn't doing this alone.
But I think a lot of it was fueled by
her wanting to play this part that she's been wanting
to play for a long time. Sarah, what do you think?
Speaker 3 (18:33):
Yeah, no, look, look, I think this is one of
the main reasons I wanted to make the podcast, and
what I hope is one of the things that people
find the most useful about it. And actually I've already
heard from people listening to just the first couple episodes,
which doesn't even get like this part of the family
drama really comes towards the end of the podcast in
(18:53):
episodes five and six, but I think Sean is.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Spot on right.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
I'd always kind of played the role of dutiful daughter,
and in my mind, being a good caregiver, being a
good daughter, being a good family member meant that you
told a person you love them, that you always took
their calls, that you tried to provide for them financially right,
that you made the choices that made sure they were okay.
(19:22):
And I think in the process of making this podcast,
I've learned two very important things.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
One is that yes, all of those.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Things are important, but if there isn't real intention and meaning,
an emotional connection behind it, then it is also to
some degree performative. And when your parent passes away, you
can feel that you've done all the right things, but
if you don't have the conversations, if you don't really
work on your relationship with them, then you might realize
(19:53):
that you gave a form of caregiving, but you did
not perhaps give exactly the form of caregiving for what
you intended or want once they have passed. I think
the second thing that I learned in making this podcast
and in just in the last several years of our
lives in dealing with what we dealt with my dad
(20:14):
and our family is that there is we are so
good at the early stages of life. There are a
million manuals on how to raise a baby. You can
find thirty seven different technique books alone on sleep training,
but you can barely find five well recommended books on
(20:37):
how to take care of an elderly patient, an elderly
parent with dementia.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
And I think we.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
As a society focused so much on the early years
of life that we have completely forgotten about the later years.
And it is hard to take care of an aging parent,
And it is hard to suddenly find yourself in the
role of parenting your own parent, and it is hard
for your parent to suddenly be parented by their children.
(21:07):
That is a hit to an ego and a self that,
like I now in putting myself in my dad's shoes,
like understand is difficult and is not something that everyone
is going to accept with grace. And how everyone deals
with being a caregiver is different. And how two of
our brothers needed to deal with it, both emotionally and financially,
(21:30):
was very different than what Sean and I could give,
and we all just accepted that from each other. But
I do think people just aren't prepared for parents getting old,
and they're not prepared for how much work it's going
to be, both financially, both just labor wise, and then
also emotionally. And I think this podcast for me has
(21:57):
allowed me to let go, at least part, not entirely yet,
of some of the guilt I realized I was holding
when our dad died, that I felt about some of
the choices I made along the way that were choices
that I at the time thought I was making with
the best of intentions, but in retrospect realized I was making,
(22:21):
you know.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
For not always the right reason. And so it is.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
It has been a process working through what was the
process of caregiving.
Speaker 5 (22:30):
And the we're.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
Performative is so perfect, right, like what you do as
a performative act versus giving has so many different layers
to it, right, And then they're thinking that she was
talking as you were talking to I was thinking about
as just like any unresolved bag as you've got with
your parent will come back to bite you in the
ass when they're towards end their lives. If you've got
unchecked things you're pissed off about or heard about, or
(22:54):
abandonment issue, whatever it is, it all comes right to
the surface and it starts to inform your caregiving on
some wellvel, whether you know it or not. And so
when people talk about, you know, the care that caregivers need,
and a lot of that emphasis is on making sure
that they're reading properly themselves, are getting proper rest and
getting a break in through the physical grueling nature of it.
(23:18):
It's the emotional piece too. It's like, you know, you're
sitting there next to an eighty something little parent and
as you're sitting next to him, you know you're a
five year old kids sitting next to him. That's deep.
And so it is the emotional and the psychological support
too that's needed along the way because I think there
were certainly times I think when we were absolutely doing
(23:39):
our best, but we're probably at times doing our best
is as kids, you know, versus adults, because we were
thrown back and to an over time and we hadn't
really dealt with.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
You both have a referenced the issues that you feel
like really came to a head after your father is
passing that you Sarah talked about feeling like has helped
you to become closer. Is there any conversation or maybe
difficult conversation that you all had that you feel like
really led to like, Oh, this unlocked a new level
to our relationship that you'd feel comfortable sharing.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
I mean, actually, and look, you'll hear this conversation play
out in the last episode of the podcast, which really
deals with the end of our dad's life. I think
it was really helpful for me to talk to my
brothers about how I was frustrated when our dad was
(24:35):
in a coma and was in the ICU and I
was there by myself, And it wasn't me saying I'm
mad at you and I want you to apologize, but
it was me feeling better just being able to voice
that by being there and being by myself and understanding
why they.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Weren't there for a variety of reasons.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
It did still take me back to being that little
girl who was growing up in Hawaii by herself and
like felt like she've had family but didn't. And it
wasn't again, it wasn't about needing anyone to say anything
or apologize or change anything. But it was just really
nice to be able to voice that, have them hear it,
(25:17):
and like have that just be a real conversation that
we could have and sit in and like experience together.
I think that was really key to bringing us all closer.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
I think we're still learning, and even still, I think
we're just now learning how to be a family. I
think we have very This is very new for all
of us because we all grew up in three because
our older brothers are part of the same not say
biological mother. We four kids grew up in three separate homes.
(25:53):
Is only children, And like Sarah said perfectly the top
of this thing, you know, we're all guest stars and
each other's lives and this idea of what family means
is a new concept. And we've all made our attempts
to start our own families, to have our do overs
bring into our lives as adults we didn't have as children,
(26:15):
to varying degrees of success. But as far as each other,
this blood family, it's new and so we're still figuring
it out. And I think there's a lot of only
children act in a certain way right and on doing
those kinds of habits. Sincero's podcasts like we had a
father who buys own admission, put himself first, and put
(26:38):
his career first, and put his desires first, as many
successful people do, of all career types and all race,
creed and nationalities. But you learn from that, right you
learn how to throw in the towel and things get rough,
and you learn how to have a be okay if
you're going to put your thing about someone else's and
not to dip out when things get a little comfortable.
(27:01):
And you know, I think we're all learning how to
trust that we will all be there for each other
the funeral. We're always my tough guts and we're also
tough the conversation gets and that we can have tough
conversations and still be okay. That's near for us.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
You know, Rover Sean, you described kind of being a
workaholic as a family trait, right, like that that is
something that is really a value that has become a
part of your family. But I also, I'm not always valuable,
but not always valuable, but definitely there. But I also
hear you saying that you know that Dad kind of
shared like, hey, this kind of was my priority. I
(27:38):
wonder what hearing him talk about that has maybe if anything.
Has it shifted your relationship to work for both of
you given that you know you kind of see maybe
some of them not so great side of kind of
work always being the priority.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
There's a great moment in her podcast when her husband
Greg talks about Sarah always being on her phone, you know,
at events and just and not not being present and
Sarah and he is saying it to Sarah. Sarah's like
realizing this in real time, Like I did never even
dawn on her until this moment, at the exact same
(28:13):
moment mine wasn't recorded for a podcast. It's a safe space, man, Yeah,
it's a safe space. It's a space where we can
control things, a space where we feel like we're being
of service. And it's one of the great It's one
of those sort of most insidious isms, right because if
you're an alcohol if you have alcoholism or you know,
drug addiction, it's obvious how it's gonna screw things up.
(28:33):
The evidence is all over the place. But if you're
a workaholic, he provide for your family, you know this out,
but pays for the vacations and the rent and the
blah blah blah. Man. So it's a hard one. To
give grief about on some level, right, But it's a
great way to avoid stuff. Yeah, it's a great way
to avoid the hard stuff. So I am still a
recovering workaholics. Yeah, yeah, what do you think my workaholics sister?
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Look, our dad instilled in us and talk to us
about the importance of working hard and doing your best.
But so much of what we learned from him in
terms of a workaholic nature was never a conversation we
had with him. It is what we saw, right. He
traveled seventy five percent of the year when I was
(29:19):
a kid in Hawaii. Most of my memories of him
were picking him up from the airport or dropping him off.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
At the airport.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
So it starts less with even the conversations you have
and more with the actions you show. And your kids
pick that up from day one and Seanas spot on
and look, it is one of the It is one
of the things I am most grateful for in the podcast,
But certainly not one of the things I set out
to discover when I started is how much I was
(29:50):
turning into my father without me even realizing it, right,
And it took my lovely, patient, wonderful husband and others
to start to describe me back to myself and realize,
oh wow, there's a lot of Wally in here inadvertently.
But it is in every everyday conversations.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Sean is spot on.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
It is an everyday conversation of me checking myself.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
And you want the hit man, right. I mean, it's
like it's like a societal thing, right, We're all just
wired for more and more and more and more and more.
And you know, Sara has made this podcast and it's
a beautiful piece of work, and of course she's going
to do ever think she can do to promote it,
and she should and so you know, and then you
get trained to think like every offer you gets, the
last offer then to come around and you jump at everything,
(30:36):
and we're just conditioned to say yes to everything. But yeah,
I think it's a it's a daily negotiation.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
It is.
Speaker 4 (30:44):
It is a daily negotiation.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
More from our conversation after the break. So, Sarah, you've
kind of talked about there being a family culture of
not talking about things you know publicly, yet you have, now,
it seems, convince your brothers to do this very public podcast.
(31:10):
Wasn't that a hard sale? And talk about like how
the podcast and the making of the podcast has impacted
your relationship with your siblings.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
It was not a hard sell at all, and I'm
very grateful and will always appreciate that fact. I called
each of my brothers individually and asked them if they
were cool with me doing this, and I called my
mom to and I said, if everyone isn't okay with this,
I won't do it. And everyone was entirely supportive from
(31:40):
the first moment. And Sean was so supportive that he
also provided his deep catalog of music, which is actually
what the entire podcast is scored to, and the theme
song is one of my favorite songs by Sean. So
Sean went above and beyond in helping. But no, I
think this this podcast only worked if everyone in the
(32:02):
family was open to it and willing to be a
part of it, because at the end of the day,
this was as much about kind of helping cement the
right type of legacy for not just our dad but
our family as it was about me just working through stuff.
(32:24):
And I can't work through stuff if no one in
the family wants to work through it with me, then
it's just me talking into a void. And God bless
no one needs that, so everyone was spot on from
day one, and then it was really just about doing
the work right and digging in and having the conversations.
And again that was really my family stepping up and
(32:45):
not just having the to say what we were talking about.
The performative conversation. Right, there's a version of these interviews
that could have been really just surface and really just like,
let's talk about the things that are already out there,
let's talk about the police stuff. But instead, like all
of my family really went to places that were uncomfortable
(33:06):
and talked about things that have hurt and chaos and
trauma associated with them and did so in beautiful ways.
And that is a huge gift that they all graciously
gave to me.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
There's such a media landscape now that rewards and presumes
that these types of you know, behind the scenes, you know,
revelations will all be exploitative or it's about selling scores
or retribution or this kind of thing, or that the
motives are about money or about gore settling. And it's
(33:49):
such a tribute to our father that, like, none of
his sins are so great that we don't all want
to be standing together and saying what an amazing duty
was and that he had his challenges like we all do.
Some of them are so easy to understand if you
know anything about Black America and if you know anything
about men in Black America. Great phrase I learned about.
(34:13):
We are guilty, but not to blame, and he's guilty
of much, but if you know anything about his life
and where he came from, he is so not to blame.
And I think the greatest testament to him is that
these four kids from three marriages, you know, consider themselves
family and wanted to come together and tell a story
(34:34):
about their father that would heal themselves and hopefully help
others heal. And it's just to me Sarah has put
together like the greatest tribute possible dem thanks Sean.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
It's also funny. I want to say, we're a very
funny family, and so I think we've talked a lot
about the emotions and the struggles and all of that
is very real, but we are also a hilarious bunch
of people, and so we honor our dad, who was
also very funny when he wanted to be in this podcast.
It is a mix of tears and laughter in a
(35:15):
way that like is what I love about the Amos family.
We can all cry one moment and then bust out
laughing the next, and that is what I think a
great family is.
Speaker 4 (35:25):
Yeah, it's really it's about resilience. Yeah, I mean he
was a resilient dude, for sure. I think Black Americans
are some of the most resilient people on Earth, and
I think that we are profoundly resilient family, and I
think hopefully that does all of service to people.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
So, Sarah, I read a piece from you, and you
both have already talked about how therapeutic it was to
complete the podcast, which you talked about like, oh, these
are probably also things I should be talking to my
therapist about. But I'm curious about the role that therapy
has played in both of your, maybe individual lives, but
maybe even in your relationship as siblings.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
Yes, Sarah, talking about the role therapies play in your.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
Life, I can now very firmly say, I am finally
going to therapy.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
Wow, breaking news, breaking news on the Doctor Joy podcasts.
Finally finally, who's going to therapy?
Speaker 2 (36:26):
I'm dabbling. I'm dabbling.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Look in the first episode of the podcast, very much
ends with me asking my husband, do you think I
should go to therapy, and him trying politely to be like, yes,
and God please, So now I'm going to a therapist.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
Have you actually made an appointment with a therapist.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
I've had several appointments already. I've had three appointments already.
I have my next appointment on Friday, and I don't know.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Man, I'm at the beginning of this journey.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
So we'll see, We'll see how it goes and how
I feel it's going to help me. But I'm very
proud of myself that, like I've got into this point
in the journey also, and this is like a testament
to how much more developed my nine year old daughter
is than I am.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
I told her, I was like.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
I've made an appointment to go see a therapist, and
she goes, whoo, good for you.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
I've already been seeing one.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Like she was so deeply unimpressed with making an appointment.
She was like, Okay, good for you, but yeah, I
am happy on doing it. I think it's going to
be great for me. I should have done it sooner.
I fully fully admit it. And people should not be
afraid of therapy, or more importantly, people should make time
(37:46):
for therapy.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
That was my thing.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
I was never afraid of it. It was just my
workaholic nature. No, I really do think with my workaholic
nature was like, I know what's wrong with me. I
don't need someone to fix it. I am fully functional
without fixing it. This is too low of a priority.
And I recognize, I now recognize that like that may
(38:11):
not be healthy.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
That's called what's your relationship with therapy?
Speaker 4 (38:16):
Long and hard, long, hard, arduous, And I'll be back tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
We love a standing up plane.
Speaker 4 (38:25):
And you've got a father like mine and uh a
mother like mine. Therapy is the first, second, and last destination.
So yes, lots of therapy that is just been in
essential blue dolment together over the years, for sure.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
So I'm aware as you both were talking that you know,
of course sibling relationships is a special kind of relationship,
but I think that cousins are also a very special relationship.
So I love to hear, maybe how are you being
intentional about like cultivating the cousin relationship for your keys
cousins through God?
Speaker 2 (39:03):
So our kids are very very close.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
So as Shawn alluded, when I started college, he had
just had his first kid and his daughter is now
in her twenties and lives in New York. And I mean,
is so close to my daughter that like their borderline siblings.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Depending on the day.
Speaker 4 (39:27):
Yeah, that's beeutiful.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
And I think I was a very intentional and to
all three of his kids and really made a point
even when I.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Moved to New York to be present.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
And my husband and I've been together for twenty years,
so he's been a very intentional uncle since day one.
And so I do think for Sean and I we've
really made sure that our kids have a deep cousin relationship.
And I actually think in recent years we've been trying
to be better with our oldest brother Michael and his kids.
(40:00):
I think that cousin relationship there actually probably drifted more
than it should have, even with us just as aunts
and uncles. And you know, we were on a chain
actually with one of Michael's kids last week making dinner
plans coming up. And I do think again, it's this
(40:21):
great irony, right, Sometimes it takes someone passing to bring
the rest of a family together. But when our dad passed,
we had a memorial in New York and a lot
of the family, some of whom we hadn't seen in
fifteen twenty years. We all came together for it, and
I think we all are trying to be much more
(40:44):
intentional about being in each other's lives in a way
that to be blunt, we just met we never have
in the past.
Speaker 4 (40:54):
There's a wonderful moment when Sarah was recording the podcast
and she calls me up from a subway platform and says,
we're from Gambia. We're from Gambia. I'm like, what say,
We're from Gandia.
Speaker 5 (41:09):
We talked about dad'side of the family from Gambia and
she found out this information doing an interview with one
of our cousins for the podcast, who had been sitting
on a ton of family history for ages and none
of us knew because we just haven't talked to one
another ever.
Speaker 4 (41:28):
It's unlocking literally our family history. This we need relationship
and to find her a point on the on the
memorial service, we we we made a point. We asked
all of our kids to so Michael or oldest brother's children,
my children, Sarah's daughter to speak at the top of
the memorial service and to welcome everyone. And it was
(41:51):
the first time that they had all stood together. It
was for some some of them they ever met. And
that was a real, all powerful binding agent, and it
was purposeful. And you know, we've very much have wanted to,
you know, set this new trajectory for our family where
(42:11):
there's pride in the family name, there's pride in the
family history, there's awareness of the family they started to
begin with us. And that this goes back to I
said earlier about you know, learning how to be a family, right,
because I think we've all been raised to believe that
we're all lone wolves, right, We're inted alone and we
got to you know, fight for what's ours and we
all come from these broken homes and you know, and
(42:33):
YadA YadA, and really it's like, can we retrain ourselves
to believe that we are more powerful together? You know
that this this this series of broken families and has
and steps and sort of dead end family clues. Can
we pull all those broken pieces together and create this
(42:54):
one strong family that that can provide for each other
emotionally and in all these different ways. And I think
that's a new experiment for us, but it seems to
be it seems to be going well so far. And
now that serves in therapy God knows what's Sky's the limit.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Sky's the limit. It's gonna be great.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Well, it has been such a treat to learn more
about both of you and your family. I know that
people will enjoy checking out the podcast and hearing even
more Sarah. Please tell us where we can stay connected
with you and where can we check out the podcast.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
You can check out the podcast anywhere that you get podcasts, Apple, Spotify, Audible,
Tough Cookie, The Wally Famous, Same As Story. New episodes
out every Wednesday, six episodes in total. It is a
great time. And you can find me, I mean hosting
that podcast. I don't have a massive social presence, so
you can find me there or maybe on Twitter, but
(43:52):
I don't really tweet, so I don't know. Just listen
to the podcast that find Me in the Ether.
Speaker 4 (43:57):
Got it?
Speaker 1 (43:57):
And Reverend Joe and way. Can we check out your
music and any other projects that you have going on?
Speaker 4 (44:01):
And you can find my music and you are listening
to music Apple, Spotify, ban Care Title or wherever you
listen to music, while I find some physical copies and
record stores here and there. You can find me at
sean ms dot com, shj w n AMLS dot com, perfect.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
We'll be sure to include all of that in the
show notes. Thank you both for spending some time with
me today. I appreciate it so great.
Speaker 4 (44:27):
Thanks a lot, Thank you.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
This has been wonderful.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
I'm so glad that Sarah and Reverend Sean were able
to join us for this conversation. I'm very happy that
we have concluded our Siblings sit down series where we
are celebrating connection, memory, and the beautiful bombs that shape
who we are. To learn more about them and their work,
be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot com slash session for thirty seven, and don't
(44:55):
forget to text this episode to two of your girls
right now and tell them to check it out. I
know that you could leave us a voicemail with your
questions or suggestions for the podcast. If you had topics
you'd like us to discuss, drop us a message at
Memo dot fm slash Therapy for Black Girls and let
us know what's on your mind. We just might feature
it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist
(45:16):
in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't forget to follow us
over on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls, and come
on over and join us in our Patreon channel at
community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com for exclusive updates,
behind the scenes content and more. This episode was produced
(45:36):
by Eleas Ellis Indichubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was done
by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me
again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation
with you all real soon. Take good care,
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