May 28, 2024 • 51 mins
After the tragedy at Travis Scott’s Astroworld festival that left 10 dead and hundreds injured and traumatized, the rapper announced a “partnership” to provide a free month of therapy through the app BetterHelp, which is basically the Tinder of therapy.
Jeff Guenthr, creator of Therapy Den, has been using his platform on TikTok to shed light on BetterHelp’s practices when it comes to data privacy and the way therapists are treated.
Jeff joins Bridget and producer Dr. Michael Amato to talk about why this “partnership” feels so wrong in the wake of the tragedy.
Check out Therapy Den: https://www.therapyden.com/
Jeff’s therapy TikToks get millions of views: https://www.tiktok.com/@therapyden/video/7007091547917372677?lang=en
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production
of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this
is There Are No Girls on the Internet. We talked
about the mental health services apps Better Help on the
News round Up the other week, which was in the
news because the Federal Trade Commissions as the company shared
(00:26):
people's personal responses to very personal questions with Facebook and Snapchat,
even after their sketchy terms of service said they wouldn't
do that. Better Help spokespeople did not admit wrongdoings of
Pride surprise, but they did have to pay out seven
point eight million dollars to about a million people who
use their services, including Better Help, but also their apps
(00:48):
aimed at specific groups like Pride Counseling for lgbtqu users
or Team Counseling for youth, and they did agree to
stop doing this, so Betterhelp had to pay out an
insulting nine dollars and seventy two cents for sharing vulnerable
people's sensitive information. Listen, we have been a little bit
suss about Betterhelp for a while, and for me it
(01:10):
all reached a fever pitch back in twenty twenty one
after the astro World crowd crush incident in Texas where
ten people, some of whom were children, died. The organizers
announced a partnership with Better Help to provide mental health
services to the survivors, which just rubbed me the wrong way.
So producer Mike and I spoke to doctor Jeff Gunther
aka Therapy Jeff, one of TikTok's most trusted therapists, to
(01:34):
dig into why ten people died, including three children, and
hundreds more were injured at rapper Travis Scott's Astroworld music
festival in Houston, Texas. First Hand video footage on social
media shows young people pleading with crew members to stop
the performance because people in the crowd were unresponsive, but
authorities say Travis Scott continued to perform for thirty seven
(01:58):
minutes after Houston police firefighters were called to what had
been deemed a mass casualty event. Travis Scott even brought
out rapper Drake for a guest appearance as many in
the crowd screamed for help. It's not clear if Travis
Scott knew the severity of the situation, but Scott does
have a history of inciting crowds into dangerous behavior at
his concerts. He's even faced charges for it at past
(02:19):
concerts and Live Nation. The company behind Astro World has
a long history of safety violations. Now the footage coming
out of the event is horrifying, and because of Travis
Scott's fan base, this was happening to very young people kids.
I was getting winded, I was using all the energy
I had left to me, and I came to the
(02:39):
point where I was accepting my death. In a statement,
Travis Scott says he didn't know people had died until
after he'd left his stage. He also announced what he
called a partnership with the therapy app Better Help to
provide a free month of therapy to those impacted by
the tragedy, which on its face may sound great, but
Better Help has also been called out for its murky
policies regarding how they use the data of clients and
(03:01):
how they treat mental health services in general. Not to
be clear, I am not an expert on digital health services,
but doctor Michael Lomato, our show's producer and chief science officer,
is Michael was a psychologist who does research on digital
health interventions. Any lead the data team that supports digital products,
which has helped hundreds of thousands of people overcome addiction. Mike,
(03:22):
can I sit down with Jeff Gunther, a therapist who
runs therapy Den, a resource to match people with diverse therapists,
who uses this platform on TikTok to warn people that
apps like Betterhelp might not be as good as they seem.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I am Jeff Gunther, licensed professional counselor.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
So, Jeff, you run a resource called the therapy Den.
How did this resource come to be?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah, so, I'm in a therapist of practice therapists. Since
two thousand and five, I started a local therapist directory
in Portland, that's where I live. And the Portland Therapist
Directory grew and I learned about what therapists are wanting
or what clients are wanting when they're looking for a therapist. Then,
back like three or four years ago, I used all
(04:07):
that knowledge to launch therapy den dot com and it
was sort of like meant to counter another huge therapist directory,
Psychology Today. Psychology Today. You might be aware of their magazine.
You'll find Psychology Today's magazines like in all of the
therapist waiting rooms. One of the things I don't like
about their magazine is that basically over the like many
(04:31):
many decades that they've been producing their magazine, they primarily
only have very good looking people on the cover, very
skinny women that are predominantly white, So there's no diversity
on their magazine cover. And that transfers over to their
(04:53):
therapist directory, which is sort of like always rankings number
one on Google, so they you can't go to psychology
today and find a therapist that is competently trained in
racial justice, or that is competently trained in treating transgender people,
or for the longest time, you couldn't search therapist by gender,
(05:17):
and they only had male and female gender. So there
was like I made therapy the Therapy then directory to
kind of like challenge them and force them or encourage
them to evolve. And psychology today has been slowly kind
of evolving. I don't think that they totally meet the
needs of modern clients, but they're doing something about it,
(05:38):
and I'm happy about that. So Therapy den was sort
of like, all right, I'm going to try to create
this disruptive force in the therapist directory field, which isn't
very big, and so that was the main agenda and
then we can get into it. But like back in
twenty fifteen, when like better Help and talks space started
(06:01):
to become a thing, I was like, oh, okay, like
they're somebody I need to target as well.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
I know, when I was first looking for a therapist
a few years ago, I knew that I wanted a
black woman. And that's partially because I had heard from
my black girlfriends of these awful experiences of having to
spend their time in therapy, you know, educating their white
therapist about things like systemic racism. And I knew that
I didn't want to do that, but finding a black
woman therapist for me was incredibly difficult. It was like
(06:27):
finding a needle in a haystack.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yeah exactly. That isn't how therapy should be. Like you
should not be spending time that you're paying for to
educate your client or educate your therapist on who you are,
your culture, your background, the language that you use, where
you're coming from. You know, your religion, and your ethnicity.
So that's why therapy then was created so that we
can like create like a ton of filters so that
(06:51):
you can like figure out how you can find a
therapist that already matches with you in lots of different ways.
And also I've like taken a stance on like, here
are a ton of different questions that clients should be
asking their therapist in the first session. If you're black
and you're seeing a therapist that's white, you need to
(07:13):
ask that that therapist like what makes you How can
you competently treat me? What do you know about my ethnicity?
How do you feel when if I'm going to talk
about how racist white people are, Like what do you
think about you know, the black lives matters, and like
all the protests and like there's just like hundreds of
questions that you could ask your therapist to make sure
(07:34):
that they are a good fit for you. And I
don't think that a lot of clients know that they
can like interview their therapist on that first session and
ask that therapist tell me, like the specific training that
you've received, talk to me about like the supervisors and
the consultation groups that you're in. So I know that,
so that I know that you can competently treat me.
So that's a whole thing.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah. I love that you're giving clients and just people
the like empowering them with a language and tools to
advocate for themselves. I love that so you talked about
your relationship with these therapy apps that have really become
ubiquitous in the last few years, things like better Help
and talk Space. You know, when I first heard about
(08:16):
these apps, they did really seem like an accessible way
for folks to access like therapists. But so many therapists
I've heard from do not like these apps. Can you
tell me why that is?
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Yeah, but let's start there. Like, you're right, the accessibility
that these apps have like tapped into it is so
incredibly difficult, and I wish it wasn't. It's a systemic issue,
but it's so incredibly difficult for somebody to just like
find a therapist it's a good match for them. There's
a ton of searching that you have to do. There's
(08:48):
confusing insurance that you have to like wade through. It
can be expensive, there's like a ton of roadblocks. So
many therapists are booked, especially because everybody in the fun
and world decided to get therapy at the same goddamn time,
which is totally fine. I get it. I understand. I
love that you're getting therapy, but therapists are so busy,
(09:11):
so you're just like you even if you find a
therapist who is a good match. It's incredibly frustrating because
they might not have any openings. But then betterhelp Talkspace,
Cerebral other apps like that have come along and they're
just like, hey, click a button, we are the uber
of therapy. Download the app, click this button, check the
terms of service, don't worry about reading it. It's confusing anyways,
(09:34):
and we will set you up with a therapist, just
any therapist. Is it a good match? I don't know.
We hope so maybe. But like they've tapped into the
accessibility part where it's just like it's so understandable, Like
people are getting so frustrated, so of course they're going
to go to these apps, especially like younger people that
(09:54):
are used to doing that.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Yeah, that is an excellent point that they really did
identif by a true need that exists out there. Of
it's difficult to find a therapist. And we talk a
lot on this show about bad things that the internet
and tech bring to us, but I was talking with
bridget the other day. One of the things she mentioned
was how her favorite stories are about the great things
(10:18):
that the internet does to like bring people together or
help somebody be seen or find whatever it is that
they're looking for, and it really seems like they sort
of zeroed in on that and it is a real
need that they've addressed it is.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
It's a real need. And on the platforms there are
actually amazing therapists, Like my beef is not what the
therapists that are contracted to provide therapy. They are like
trained to you know, end licensed and they're they're great.
(10:55):
So yeah, they tap into a need and somebody needed
to do it. And it's because like because therapists and
private practice cannot all get their shit together. We're all
running our own little individual small businesses, so we can't
all come together and like figure out how to solve
this problem. It's not just therapists are being to come together.
(11:16):
It's just like so many layers of everything that needs
to come together in order to fix this. So these
tech companies, which are super savvy, they're the ones that
did it. So bravo, I hate you.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
You compared these apps to Uber, and you know it's
one of those things like should getting a therapist, should
starting the journey to like deal with your trauma, unpack
your issues? Should that look like an Uber business model
that we know has so much exploitation, whether it's the
exploitation of drivers, the exploitation of writer details and writer privacy.
(11:48):
Should should that relationship mimic uber and I would argue, no,
it shouldn't. That accessibility is good. The idea of having
a therapist at your fingertips sounds great, but when you
actually think of at it harder, you're like, wait, should
therapy be the same be a similar kind of business
framework as something like an uber where you can get
a ride at the push of a button. And maybe
(12:10):
this driver isn't being treated well and maybe they aren't
being super careful with my data. Who knows, I don't know.
The answers might be buried in the third page of
some you know, murky privacy documents somewhere, like I'm not
really sure. Should getting into a relationship with a therapist
really be the same way that it is when you
just like hail a taxi to your home?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yeah? I mean no, I think not at all, because, like,
you know, if someone's driving you from the restaurant to
your home, Like, I don't know, I guess that person
can kind of be anybody as long as they're like
good enough, you know, they're not going to bother you.
They're going to like be quiet whatever, they'll they'll do
what they need to do to get you from like
(12:49):
point A to point B. But when you're looking for
a therapist, it's not just like are they good enough?
Are they going to like talk to you or listen?
It's like are they actually qualified to treat you? Do
they understand on your experience in a like deep way?
And you need to shop around for therapists and talk
to multiple therapists in order to find somebody who's a
good enough match. And instead of just being handed one
(13:13):
like Uber would do, or like talk space or better
help does so. No, I don't think so, but there
are apps and tech companies that like understand that Betterhelp
is not doing this well and somebody else needs to
do it better. So there is like a newer app
(13:34):
that's I think is maybe just in like Florida or
Georgia right now, called Hurdle. Have you ever heard of Hurdle? No, yeah,
it's I just heard about it. And they contacted me
to like let me know about what they're doing. And
they contacted me because they're like, hey, can you sponsor
us on TikTok and I said no, but only because
(13:55):
it sort of like conflicts with therapy done where I'm
trying to connect people. So it's anyways, I love them
and what they're doing, what they've started out doing where
they're like paying therapists, Well we should talk about that
with Better Help, because they're not and they're like making
sure that all the therapists on the platform are competently
trained in racial justice and social justice and they're transcompetent
(14:18):
and queer competent, and they're continuously going through trainings and
so like they're doing it the right way. So there
are apps and services out there that are starting to
do it the right way. But Better Help and Talk
Space they're like these first movers that have amazing marketing,
especially Better Help and and yeah, so's it might be
(14:42):
hard to compete with them.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
It's interesting that you say that they have better marketing,
you know, because I've looked at your tiktoks and I
think one of the big criticisms is how they harvest
people's data and use it for marketing and advertising. And uh,
you know, I clicked through I read their privacy form
(15:07):
and yeah, they're just using all of your data, including
your communications with your counselor for third party marketing, and
so it made me wonder, like how much of their
business model is actual therapy delivery and how much are
they an advertising company?
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Exactly? Yes, they get so much amazing personal data on
your mental health information, who you are, when was your
you know, are you suicidal, when was your last suicide attempt?
How much money do you make? Uh, where do you live,
what are your pronouns? What's your sexual orientation? Uh, what's
(15:44):
your gender? Like there's They get the most detailed information
about how much, how often you're talking to your therapist,
if you're meeting your therapist goal, if you're married, counseling goals,
like so much stuff incredibly valuable. I don't know like
how much money they make off of it, or if
they make any money off it, if they're making all
of their money off of that, but they that information
(16:07):
is incredibly valuable, and they did. They were a little
bit more clear a few months ago when I made
one of my first TikTok videos about them and going
through their privacy policy about like all the information that
they collect. Since I sort of like exposed them and
it got, you know, over a million views of their
like privacy policy, and they've changed their privacy policy to
(16:29):
make it so much more vague and so much more
confusing and actually gives them so much more leeway when
it comes to like sharing your data. They can share
your data with their corporate partners. Do you know who
their corporate partners are? Fuck? No, who the fuck knows?
I have no idea. They don't list them. They can
share it with their ad network. You know who's in
their ad network? I have no fucking idea. Probably a
(16:52):
ton of people. They can. They can use it for
marketing purposes and whatever the hell they want to use
it for. So we don't know why, what they're using
for exactly, We don't know who they're sharing it with,
we don't know how much money they're making off of it.
And the only way that you can use their app
is if you check off the terms of service, which
(17:13):
like allows them to use all this information. I would
love it if they gave you an option to not
like sell your data on my HBO Mac subscription. There's
a little checkbox that says, are we allowed? Can we
like use your third party data? And I can just
be like, nope, better help doesn't do that And why
would they ever do it because they're probably making a
(17:33):
ton of money.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Something else that I'd like to mention is that you
know they're able to sell your information to third parties,
and so if they sold your information to a company
like Facebook, then you think about all the different data
that we know that Facebook is able to collect, combined
with whatever they have from your your relationship with your
counselor through better help, it becomes clearer. Just like we're
(17:57):
not talking about little bits and pieces of data. They
really can and mine and harvest a real composite like
portrait of who you are and sell that for profit.
And I just fundamentally believe that that is not how
a relationship with a mental health specialist should look. And
to me, there is not another word for that other
(18:17):
than like exploitation. And like I guess, I really see
it as this kind of capitalistic mining of the most
sensitive stuff about us so that corporate interests can get
better pockets. And it's just so depressing and demoralizing.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Oh god, it is, it really is.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Let's take a quick break er back. So you might
be thinking, what about HIPPA, the Health Insurance Portability and
Accountability Act, a law that created national standards to protect
(19:00):
patient health information from being disclosed without consent. Doesn't HIPPA
prevent our health information from being used to sell things?
In this case, the answer is not really. Our producer
Mike works with health information, and that means he spends
a lot of time dealing with hippap Here's what he
had to say.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
I work within the constraints of HIPPA every day, and
I think it's probably one of the most misunderstood laws
in America. People think HIPPA protects all of their health
information all of the time, but it doesn't. HIPPA only
applies to a very narrow set of actors and circumstances. Basically,
it applies to healthcare providers and their contractors. Better Health
is neither of those things. In a page on their
(19:38):
website convincingly titled online therapy Services, are they legit question mark,
they repeatedly use phrases like HIPPA compliant therapists. What they
don't say is that the therapists are bound by HIPPA
because they're providing healthcare. But better Health the platform is not.
Because they aren't providing healthcare. They're simply connecting you with
the providers and so they are bound only by the
(19:58):
terms of service by creating an account. HIPPO was signed
into law in nineteen ninety six, around the same time
Bill Clinton was describing the Internet as an information super highway.
It's authors never imagined all the ways the Internet would
revolutionize how we access healthcare. And so we've come to
this place where most Americans believe their private health information
(20:19):
is legally protected, but that's just not always true. In reality,
many of the digital services we use have no greater
legal obligation to protect information about our health than information
about what TV shows we like to watch or what
types of sneakers we want to buy. So the question is,
are we okay with for profit tech companies like betterhelp
setting the precedent around privacy and digital health services because
(20:42):
that's where we're at.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
And one of the questions that I get all the time, Yeah,
because you're right, they know you intimately, like so many
things about you. And the question I get is like,
how is this not a hip of violation? What is
making this okay? So if you are my client and
you're seeing me in my private practice, I'm your therapist,
(21:06):
all the notes that I write on you is actually
your property. That's all yours. You can go to your therapist.
You can be like, give me my notes, and a
therapist legally has to hand that over to you. That's
all of your medical information we need to give it.
So if my client came in and was like, Jeff,
give me all of the notes that you've been keeping
(21:26):
on me, and I give it over to them, they
could take all of those all that mental health information,
and they could sell it to an advertiser. They can
give it to Facebook. As a client, you can do
whatever you want with your medical information. And that's what's happening.
When you sign up for Better Help. You're saying, Okay,
all of the information that I'm providing to this therapist
(21:47):
is mine, and now I'm giving it to you Better Help.
You can do whatever you want with it. So that's
another way that they're able to get around it. And
so one of my big things was like, oh, you know,
I can fuck over Better Help if I can like
go to the state licensing boards in all of the states.
I'd start with like California and New York and be like, Okay,
(22:09):
y'all therapists are seeing these clients and they know that
the client information that we like ethically legally have to
keep confidential is being given to Better Help and given
to like advertisers. Should these therapists be allowed to provide
therapy on Better Help? Should these therapists be disciplined or
(22:30):
have their license taken away? Not that I want to
get those licenses taken away, but maybe I can put
pressure on Better Help. And the problem is is that
like what I just mentioned, it's the client information and
they can hand it over. There also is somebody something
in Hippa where like Hippo's just like everything has to
say confidential unless maybe it's used for marketing purposes and
(22:53):
it's anonymoused, so like they also have that like gray area.
There's so many things that are detecting Better Help.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
It seems though that like stepping back to harvest all
of this personal information about somebody's mental health and then
use it to make advertising revenue, it just feels.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Wrong, right, like oh there's that. Yeah, it just doesn't
sit well. It just doesn't feel okay. That shouldn't be
happening obviously, like abows your therapistness, anonymizing your info and
selling it to advertisers. I would lose my license and
I should that just shouldn't be a part of the
therapy process. But we're in this like funky, weird, shitty
(23:38):
capitalist whatever time where like that's okay, and they're incredibly
protected and they're going to probably continue to do that.
And betterhelp is you know, they interacted with me a
little bit by like leaving some comments on some of
my TikTok videos, and now they have there just ignoring me,
which is probably a very good business decision on their
(23:58):
because like, who the fuck am I?
Speaker 1 (24:01):
I mean, you did like your tiktoks had an impact
when you were describing how they changed their you know,
their privacy policy. For a hot second, I thought you
were going to say they saw, you know, because of
my tiktoks that got millions of views and they changed
their privacy policy for the better. But then it was like, oh,
they just made it even more vague.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
No, because of me, I made it worse for everybody
by like pointing this out. They're just like, cool, we
need to be real fucking shady now, So you're welcome, America.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
When I saw the news out of Texas, it had
a really deep impact on me in a way that
I almost can't even articulate why. There was something about
the videos that were coming out of it that just
really hit me in a way that you know, you
think that you're desensitized to tragedy and disaster, but something
about those videos really stuck with me. And I think
(24:53):
seeing like the live stream with an Apple logo on it,
where I knew that young people were facing really scary circumstances,
I really can't shake the deep disturbed way that that
how disturbing that was to me, Like I don't know
why I've not been able to sort of like move
(25:14):
past it, but I have not. And when I woke
up again and saw that Travis Scott was partnering with
Better Help, that really it just seemed like a cherry
on top of this exploitation cake where these young people
had really been deeply exploited in the deepest, deepest ways
for profit, to make money for corporate interest, whether we're
(25:37):
talking about Live Nation, Travis Scott, the organizer's Apple streaming platforms, whatever,
and then in the aftermath of that horrific traumatic tragedy,
what they were being offered was just another way to
serve them up to be further mined and exploited and
it was like it broke my brain. I couldn't even
conceptualize the debts to how broken so many systems are
(26:01):
where that's the thing they're being offered and even still
one month of it, so it's like it's already shitty
what they're being offered. But it's not even that long.
Some of these kids probably have like complex PTSD. It
takes longer than a month to treat that. What were
your thoughts on that partnership?
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, garbage. I thought it was a dumpster fire. I
thought it was. I felt the same way that you felt. So, yeah,
it's like a bunch of you know, corporations creating trauma
and then sending those traumatized kids to Better Help where
they're going to like mine their data and make a
ton of money. It's it was disturbing, it was upsetting,
and it reminded me of when Better Help used to
(26:42):
I still think they kind of do this, but back
in like twenty eighteen twenty nineteen, they were going to
all the therapist directories out there that attract, you know,
the clients that are looking for therapists, and they're just
trying to like either buy them up or quote unquote
partner with them in order to like take all of
their business and like direct those those users into the
(27:04):
Better Help ecosystem. And so they approached me when I
like launched therapy then and they're like, hey, can we
go ahead and take like therapist profiles and add them
to your directory so that if any of the people
that are using your directory that you know, find they
could like find one of our Better Help therapists and
(27:26):
then create services or create you know, start therapy with them.
And every time somebody signs up for Better Help through therapy,
then will pay you three hundred dollars, which is a
ton of money. And because they're like, you could potentially
make eighty thousand dollars a month because we've like made
(27:48):
had this deal, created this deal with other therapist directories
that are the same size as yours. And I know
those therapist directories and I know the owners and some
of them are buddies of mine, So I was like
talking to them about like what went on, and those
therapist directories were like basically taken over and just used
as like a funnel in order to like you know,
get even more people to sign up for Better Help.
(28:10):
So you don't really own your therapist directory anymore. They
just sort of like take it over because they put
thousands and thousands twenty thousand different like therapist profiles or
something like on on your directory. And it's also like
therapy done is about like matching people with like a
good competent therapist that you know is a good fit,
(28:31):
and Better Help can't do that at all. It's a
therapy mel So it didn't feel okay, it allow would
lose control, Like it just didn't feel like a good
match at all. And I like started to That's when
I started to like really learn about their privacy policy
and the data mining and shit like that. And I
would imagine that like all the marketing that they do
that Better Help does, and all the podcasts and NPR
(28:53):
and shit like that, all of those companies are probably
getting like a very nice kickback because Betterhelp was like, Hey,
on average, we make twelve hundred dollars, we bring in
twelve hundred dollars. When somebody who signs up for Better Help,
we are very much willing to like pay you three
hundred dollars when we collect twelve hundred dollars. Also, we're
going to pay the therapist. Shit so like it's not
(29:15):
even like we have like too much of an overhead cost.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
You talk about how the therapists are just not only
are they not paid what like like a comparable amount
that they can make in private practice or elsewhere, but
also you know they're I learned from your tiktoks they're
sometimes paid by the word, and so once they hit
their work out, they kind of have to decide if
they want to continue treating a client who very well,
maybe in crisis, basically out of the goodness of their
(29:40):
heart because they care about this client. For free, clients
can access their therapists twenty four hours a day, seven
days a week, which sounds really good in theory. But
then you're like, should you have access to a therapist
twenty four to seven I would say no, that maybe
you should have some boundaries around how you access your therapist.
It's kind of stunning to hear about how much money
(30:02):
they must be taking in via how much money gets
spent gets given to their actual therapists who are doing
the work of the stating this platform.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yeah, one, I mean that the therapists are getting maybe
around thirty a little less than thirty dollars an hour Ideally,
if you're a therapist and you're seeing clients who want
to get at least one hundred dollars an hour, that's
what we're aiming for, if not more if you live
in more expensive cities. But but our help is like,
we will pay you up to fifty dollars an hour
(30:34):
if you work more hours per week. So if you
work up to fifty hours a week, you'll get our
top pay, which is fucking bonkers. I don't even understand
why that's a pay scale that exists. Like, work fifteen hours,
get thirty dollars or less an hour, work up to
fifty hours a week more, I don't know. That's the
(30:55):
whole fucking thing. I hate that. And then it's they
pay you based on word count, so you can't go
over the word count that they like provide if you
do start like providing more support, if you start texting
more support and going over the word count, you're working
for fucking free therapists. They're not going to pay you
for it. So maybe they're paying you thirty dollars an hour,
(31:15):
but it's actually a lot less if you like feel
like you need to give even more support to that client,
and of course, just like uber and Lyft or whatever,
like you're not getting benefits. You're a contract. You're not
like getting paid time off, you know, like you have
to provide all of your equipment, you know. So it's
just like it's a bunch of bullshit that therapists are
(31:37):
getting exploited, and they're able to exploit these therapists that
are usually like fresh out of grad school or just
looking for a little part time work or something, And yeah,
twenty four hour access to a therapist clinically no, not okay,
that's not creating self reliance. You need to be able
to kind of like go and do your thing and
then be able to check back with your therapist. I
understand why that's appealing though, but imagine under stand that
(32:00):
that therapist with a caseload of like ten twenty thirty,
forty fifty clients a week, You're they're getting pinged all
the fucking time. So there's no way that a therapist
is able. But like a therapist must have to it's
in their contract that they have to respond within twenty
four hours, no matter what day or time it is,
(32:21):
which is not very realistic. Plus there's this like thing
where like if there's if betterhelp has like a flood
of people signing up, They're like, Okay, I know that
you have a ton of clients, but will you take
these new clients? Will pay you more for these new clients,
which sort of incentivizes therapists to drop their old clients
that they're not getting paid enough for in the first place,
(32:41):
to then take the new clients. It's such a stupid,
fucked up system. I hate it. Can you tell?
Speaker 1 (32:47):
It's so fucked up? And this is not how therapy
is meant to be. This is not how it should
look to access mental health care. And you know, in
the wake of the astront World thing, it's like it
is a it's an exploitation layer cake where the clients,
the potential clients, are going to be exploited, the therapists
running the side are being exploited. Everybody's being exploited except
(33:09):
for the tech overlords who like are possibly like making
money from the people that are being referred from this tragedy. Honestly,
talking to you has helped me make sense of why
it made me so deeply, deeply angry and disgusted, like
I had such a visceral reaction. Also just the use
of the word partnership, like, you know, using this tragedy
(33:29):
as a branding opportunity. I really found it deeply, deeply,
like just disgusting, and I think talking to you is
really made it so clear that yeah, that wasn't that
was it. I was almost about to say, like an
irrational response, that was a rational response, because it is
really fucked up, but it is really disgusting.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah, it's a very rational response to a very irrational
thing that's occurring.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Totally, You've described all these numbers of like caseloads of
forty or fifty patients a wee, Which like, what a joke.
How can you be providing like high quality of care.
I haven't heard you say anything about like the evaluation
process or you know, any sort of quality controlled do
you know if they do, Like I just have to
(34:14):
imagine that the quality of care that patients are receiving
is pretty low with a caseload like that. But is
that something that they look at or measure or talk about.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Yeah, I don't know. It's a good question. I've never
come across any sort of like data or survey about
the quality of care, So I don't know, And I
just feel I feel bad for everybody involved. I feel
really bad for the therapists that are getting burnt out,
that are kind of like forced to work longer or
more hours. And this is I don't know, I don't
(34:47):
know if I can say that, Well whatever, maybe we'll
head it out. But there's can you say that if
you want to. You're somebody that's seeing a better help
therapist and you really like like your therapist, because there's
a ton of really great therapists on there, and this
conversation is upsetting or disturbing you. If you wanted to
(35:12):
ask your better help therapist, if they have their own
private practice and they are accepting clients, then that's something
you can ask them and you can talk to them about.
The better help therapists obviously are not allowed to be
like out of private practice. If you want to see
me there and you know, even pay me, if you like,
(35:32):
pay that therapist the same amount that you're giving better help,
then what their hourly rate has doubled or tripled, you
know by that time. So so, because I get a
lot of feedback like, oh but I love my better
help therapist. Let stick with that better help therapist. I'm
so happy for you. Also, maybe you can see them
in their private practice and get out of like better
(35:54):
Help if you want to. I think I can say that.
I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Yeah, I think that's good if vice, because it sounds
like you're being so clear that you're not trying to
say that better Help doesn't have great, kick ass therapists
on the platform, but that the platform itself does not
support these therapists to giving the best quality of care
that they can, and so there might be other ways
to access that same therapist that you might love who's
(36:18):
on Better Help in a way where they're not being
sort of set up to give you not as good
of care as you could be getting otherwise.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
Right exactly, And your therapists in their private practice probably
won't sell all your personal mental health information.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Most likely they are not going to do that.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
More after a quick break, let's get right back into
it now. I'm not the only one who has a
problem with Better Helps partnership with Travis Scott. In the
wake of the Astro World tragedy. The response has not
(37:03):
been good, and Betterhelp is working overtime to correct what
they're calling misinformation about their platform. Now, it's worth noting
that Better Help waited until the partnership got negative reactions
online to clarify pretty basic details about the arrangement, frankly,
making patient protection seem like kind of an afterthought. They
(37:24):
released an FAQ where they say that people who use
the free month of Better Help services will not be
billed after that month is up, and they say that
Travis Scott isn't making any money from the partnership. Now,
I've heard a lot of tech company corporate devil speaking
my day, and I'd like the company to clarify whether
this also pertains to any business or philanthropic entities Travis
(37:45):
Scott might be affiliated with. They also answer the frequently
asked question, is information members enter on Betterhealth ever sold
to advertising platforms or third parties? Now they answer this
with an emphatic no. Period. That can't be the whole
story because on their own privacy policy, in the section
called purposes for which information is used, they say your
(38:07):
information may be used to quote personalized website experience, including
targeted offers and ads throughout our websites, third party sites,
and via email or text message. They also say quote,
we may share your information with any subsidiaries or parent
companies within our corporate group. So who are these other
companies in their corporate group and what products are being advertised?
(38:30):
Is Better Health using your personal mental information to buy
ads or sell ads? Why rely on such vague language
when discussing something as important as our health and privacy?
I believe Better Health is intentionally exploiting vague language and
gray areas and their privacy policies to mislead the public,
which under normal circumstances is bad, but it's especially egregious
(38:52):
to do that after a tragedy. Do you feel like
the public it's owed a little bit of transparency about
this partnership. I feel like, especially given that the folks
who were at that festival are like a lot of
them are young people. I feel like it is a
public like a public good for Better Help and or
Travis Scott to say, hey, we're doing this therapy, this
(39:13):
therapy partnership for folks who were impacted by this tragedy.
Here's who's making money on it, Here's how your data
is going to be used. You know here, like whether
Travis Scott, Better Help or both are making some sort
of like cut or kickback. Do you feel like it's
in the public interest for us to have that information
in a transparent way.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Oh my god. Yes, And like in my most recent
TikTok video that's on Twitter and everywhere else, I'm saying that,
like what's going on, Like, let's be clear here who's
getting paid? Uh do how do you continue care after
that one month? How much is it going to cost
in order to like continue? Like there, it's just also murky.
(39:57):
So yeah, I would love if there's more transparency around.
But the way that better help operates is just like
they're very good at like making shit real vague, and unfortunately,
whenever I push against them, or anyone pushes up against them,
they just get even more vague and more vague and
get into that gray area. So hopefully this will like
get more people to become concerned and ask them to
(40:18):
be more transparent about what they're doing and the deal
that's being set up.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Travis Scott, Yeah, I just feel like we're in this
age where things that technology that is meant to be
like a wellness focused thing or a mental health focused thing,
we're in this weird gray area where everything feels kind
of scammy and like not really regulated, and so we
have all of these apps that are sort of mental
(40:41):
health ish or like wellness ish or like medical care ish,
and you just have to add, like are these regulated?
Are they safe? Am I actually getting good information from
like a competent trained medical health professional. I wonder, like,
do you feel the same way that we're in this
sort of wild West where there are so many tech
platforms offering us wellness or you know, medical care, but
(41:06):
in this very gray area way where they can sort
of avoid having to answer some of these questions about
you know, the quality of care that you're actually getting.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Oh yeah, for sure. And they're so savvy, they're so slick,
they know exactly what they're doing, so you just kind
of like give this like these ish services and it
works well enough. And also you know all these like
podcasts or MPR whoever, like it's such a good look
(41:36):
for them. I'm like, oh, therapy, you know, like it
looks like there. It's so nice to quot unquote partner
with them because it sort of like lifts their brand up.
You know, so it's just like this feel good, lovely thing,
but we don't know what's going on like right behind
the scenes, and MPR, fuck you, MPR. They're like I
hate that MPR. It's like running ads all over the place.
(42:00):
I mean it's all over Oregon with like NPR and
OPB over here where there's just I'm constantly hearing Better
Help and I'm emailing NPR and Oregon Public Procects. I'm
like letting them know, like I want to be on
your show. This is not okay. If you understood the
values of this company, you would have a fucking aneurysm
about it. But like they're not responding to me and
(42:21):
they're not doing anything about it. So it's this weird
like halo effect that happens when they do partner with
these Better Help and like, yeah, no, yeah, I don't know,
I'm agreeing with everything that you're saying, so yeah, yeah,
And it's.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
I mean, you've said a mouthful. And I know in
the podcast space specifically that Better Help has a It's
like one of those ubiquitous brands that you hear if
you listen to podcasts, you've definitely heard of Better Help ad.
And I have, you know, friends and colleagues who I'm
sure do Better Help ads. And I'm not trying to
like call anybody out, but I also feel like you
(42:54):
have to take a little bit of responsibility for the
cop for like not so it's not just a financial
arrangement where they pay you and you read the ad.
But if you sound like you're endorsing their their values
and endorsing their practices, and if you're using your like
MPR voice to make this service seem really good and
(43:14):
progressive and like a good like a good idea, like
I do think we have to step back and ask
some hard questions of ourselves about whether or not we're
allowing brands whose values do not align with our own
to be kind of brandwa washed by our like you know,
slick podcaster voice or you know, or be like the
(43:35):
relationship that podcast listeners have with the with their hosts
right like I feel like it like it exploits the
connection that listeners have with their favorite podcast host to
make these to make brands that are not so good
seem like they're actually aligned with their values.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
I guess mm hmm, you said it totally. I keep
on saying it. But like Betterhelp one of the best
marketing teams I've ever seen. They're so good and they
know exactly when to turn off their comments on TikTok
videos because like they are, Oh, they're totally fucking off
because like all the TikTokers are just like, whoa, we
(44:15):
don't like this. This isn't like thank you Jeff for
like being transparent and like like explaining their privacy policy.
We're going to spam all their TikTok videos and you can't.
They block everybody, like they know how to turn all
that shit off. So yeah, I think podcasters and everyone
with their NPR voices like really need to think about
(44:35):
And also, like I guarantee all these podcasters are not
getting their therapy through better help, Like no way are
they actually doing that. So yeah, I agree.
Speaker 3 (44:49):
It's interesting you mentioned the you know, the halo effect there,
and you know this moment that we're in where there
are all these potentially scammy ish mental health services and
it's like mental health it's only sort of recently become
a thing that we all are talking about and acknowledging
(45:10):
as like something that needs to be dealt with, but
it's still like a very private personal thing. And I
wonder if that like contributes to the viability of scams
like this what you know, maybe it's a scam, maybe
it's not. But like when an actor is going to
participate in delivering mental health services but not respect that
(45:34):
like privacy piece of it and just you know, completely
violate those norms in pursuit of profit. It's a pretty
dangerous tech enabled place.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
One of the good things is that it's sort of
like breaking its mental health stigma is is like reducing
So that's also one of the things that's like a
good thing that's happening. But at what cost because there's
like so much information and data sharing and like ads
being directed more towards you because of this. So like
(46:07):
yay for accessibility, yay for like the stigmatization, but like
this is like profiting these huge tech companies so much,
and it's so upsetting and it's so disturbing, and we
need to talk even more about it.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
H Well, I mean so we we we don't fuck
with better health, but as we know, like it can
be so hard to get accessed to with therapists, So like,
what are some alternatives to services like better Health that
might be a little less scammy, uh and exploited it
If folks out there want to access mental health services
(46:45):
but don't know where to start.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
I mean, I'm biased, but I love therapyn dot com. Uh.
Start there. There's another therapist directory that I am in
love with, Inclusive Therapists dot com. Uh the same sort
of vibe and mission and values as therapy den dot com.
The thing is is, like you kind of have to
(47:08):
be okay or understand accepting of the fact that, like
this is going to be a journey for you. Finding
a therapist is going to take some time. And the
reason it's going to take time is because you need
to find somebody who's a really good match and who
can competently treat you. So you're gonna have to like
interview three, four, five, ten therapists possibly to like find
(47:32):
somebody who's a good match for you. It's grueling and
it sucks and I don't like it. But starting a
therapy don dot com, Inclusive therapist dot com even just
like googling somebody you know, like trying or going to
Psychology Today dot com to like go through their therapist directory,
find a therapist that's in private practice. You'll like the
(47:53):
quality of care is through the roof compared to the
quality of care that you get from betterhelp, just because
the way the betterhelp is like set up, So have
some patients. Really educate yourself. Ask all of the questions
that you want, like how can you compident competently train me?
(48:13):
What's your background? But also like if you want, you
can be like are you married? Do you have kids?
Are you from this city? Where do you hang out? What?
What do you think about? Like who's your favorite sports team?
Do you garden? Whatever the fuck you want? Like are
you like ask all the questions. Therapists don't have to
answer all these questions, but I want you to ask
(48:35):
all the questions that will make you feel more comfortable
talking to that therapist. Ask them like do you diagnose?
What do you think my diagnosis might be? What is
treatment going to look?
Speaker 3 (48:45):
Like?
Speaker 2 (48:46):
Are you cool? Whatever you need to do? So you
need to start therapyded dot com wherever the hell you
want to start, and then understand that you have to
like go on a journey.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
Honestly, if it was not for your tikto, I would
not have known any of this, Like, I don't think
there's a lot of resources out there to help people
understand companies or platforms like betterhealth and so I'm so
I'm so glad that you're making the content that you
are because I think that you're helping people take ownership
over there, or you're empowering people to advocate for themselves
(49:19):
and take ownership over how they access these services. And
so I'm so grateful for you. Where can folks keep
up with you?
Speaker 2 (49:27):
Yeah, so you can look for search for Therapy then
on TikTok and Twitter and Instagram. I am also I
produce a podcast called Swoon Love Lessons with Julian Gina.
So Julian Gina are sex therapists and experts and every
now and then I'll hop on and be on a
(49:48):
podcast episode with them. So you can find me there
talking like given love advice. I'm an amazing at giving
love advice. So so that's where you can find me,
and you can personally email me at Hello at therapy
dot com if you have any questions.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
The Astra World disaster has turned into a hotbed of
conspiracy theories. In our next episode, we'll hear from researcher
Abby Richards about why this tragedy has resulted in satanic
panic on social media platforms like TikTok. Got a story
about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to
say hi? You can reach us at Hello at tangodi
(50:28):
dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode
at tengody dot com. There Are No Girls on the
Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. It's a production
of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.
Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almado
is our contributing producer. I'm your host, bridget Tood. If
you want to help us grow, rate and review us
(50:49):
on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out
the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
A love bell lived, a long love and well lived.
There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production
of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this
is There Are No Girls on the Internet. We talked
about the mental health services apps Better Help on the
News round Up the other week, which was in the
news because the Federal Trade Commissions as the company shared
(00:26):
people's personal responses to very personal questions with Facebook and Snapchat,
even after their sketchy terms of service said they wouldn't
do that. Better Help spokespeople did not admit wrongdoings of
Pride surprise, but they did have to pay out seven
point eight million dollars to about a million people who
use their services, including Better Help, but also their apps
(00:48):
aimed at specific groups like Pride Counseling for lgbtqu users
or Team Counseling for youth, and they did agree to
stop doing this, so Betterhelp had to pay out an
insulting nine dollars and seventy two cents for sharing vulnerable
people's sensitive information. Listen, we have been a little bit
suss about Betterhelp for a while, and for me it
(01:10):
all reached a fever pitch back in twenty twenty one
after the astro World crowd crush incident in Texas where
ten people, some of whom were children, died. The organizers
announced a partnership with Better Help to provide mental health
services to the survivors, which just rubbed me the wrong way.
So producer Mike and I spoke to doctor Jeff Gunther
aka Therapy Jeff, one of TikTok's most trusted therapists, to
(01:34):
dig into why ten people died, including three children, and
hundreds more were injured at rapper Travis Scott's Astroworld music
festival in Houston, Texas. First Hand video footage on social
media shows young people pleading with crew members to stop
the performance because people in the crowd were unresponsive, but
authorities say Travis Scott continued to perform for thirty seven
(01:58):
minutes after Houston police firefighters were called to what had
been deemed a mass casualty event. Travis Scott even brought
out rapper Drake for a guest appearance as many in
the crowd screamed for help. It's not clear if Travis
Scott knew the severity of the situation, but Scott does
have a history of inciting crowds into dangerous behavior at
his concerts. He's even faced charges for it at past
(02:19):
concerts and Live Nation. The company behind Astro World has
a long history of safety violations. Now the footage coming
out of the event is horrifying, and because of Travis
Scott's fan base, this was happening to very young people kids.
I was getting winded, I was using all the energy
I had left to me, and I came to the
(02:39):
point where I was accepting my death. In a statement,
Travis Scott says he didn't know people had died until
after he'd left his stage. He also announced what he
called a partnership with the therapy app Better Help to
provide a free month of therapy to those impacted by
the tragedy, which on its face may sound great, but
Better Help has also been called out for its murky
policies regarding how they use the data of clients and
(03:01):
how they treat mental health services in general. Not to
be clear, I am not an expert on digital health services,
but doctor Michael Lomato, our show's producer and chief science officer,
is Michael was a psychologist who does research on digital
health interventions. Any lead the data team that supports digital products,
which has helped hundreds of thousands of people overcome addiction. Mike,
(03:22):
can I sit down with Jeff Gunther, a therapist who
runs therapy Den, a resource to match people with diverse therapists,
who uses this platform on TikTok to warn people that
apps like Betterhelp might not be as good as they seem.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I am Jeff Gunther, licensed professional counselor.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
So, Jeff, you run a resource called the therapy Den.
How did this resource come to be?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah, so, I'm in a therapist of practice therapists. Since
two thousand and five, I started a local therapist directory
in Portland, that's where I live. And the Portland Therapist
Directory grew and I learned about what therapists are wanting
or what clients are wanting when they're looking for a therapist. Then,
back like three or four years ago, I used all
(04:07):
that knowledge to launch therapy den dot com and it
was sort of like meant to counter another huge therapist directory,
Psychology Today. Psychology Today. You might be aware of their magazine.
You'll find Psychology Today's magazines like in all of the
therapist waiting rooms. One of the things I don't like
about their magazine is that basically over the like many
(04:31):
many decades that they've been producing their magazine, they primarily
only have very good looking people on the cover, very
skinny women that are predominantly white, So there's no diversity
on their magazine cover. And that transfers over to their
(04:53):
therapist directory, which is sort of like always rankings number
one on Google, so they you can't go to psychology
today and find a therapist that is competently trained in
racial justice, or that is competently trained in treating transgender people,
or for the longest time, you couldn't search therapist by gender,
(05:17):
and they only had male and female gender. So there
was like I made therapy the Therapy then directory to
kind of like challenge them and force them or encourage
them to evolve. And psychology today has been slowly kind
of evolving. I don't think that they totally meet the
needs of modern clients, but they're doing something about it,
(05:38):
and I'm happy about that. So Therapy den was sort
of like, all right, I'm going to try to create
this disruptive force in the therapist directory field, which isn't
very big, and so that was the main agenda and
then we can get into it. But like back in
twenty fifteen, when like better Help and talks space started
(06:01):
to become a thing, I was like, oh, okay, like
they're somebody I need to target as well.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
I know, when I was first looking for a therapist
a few years ago, I knew that I wanted a
black woman. And that's partially because I had heard from
my black girlfriends of these awful experiences of having to
spend their time in therapy, you know, educating their white
therapist about things like systemic racism. And I knew that
I didn't want to do that, but finding a black
woman therapist for me was incredibly difficult. It was like
(06:27):
finding a needle in a haystack.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yeah exactly. That isn't how therapy should be. Like you
should not be spending time that you're paying for to
educate your client or educate your therapist on who you are,
your culture, your background, the language that you use, where
you're coming from. You know, your religion, and your ethnicity.
So that's why therapy then was created so that we
can like create like a ton of filters so that
(06:51):
you can like figure out how you can find a
therapist that already matches with you in lots of different ways.
And also I've like taken a stance on like, here
are a ton of different questions that clients should be
asking their therapist in the first session. If you're black
and you're seeing a therapist that's white, you need to
(07:13):
ask that that therapist like what makes you How can
you competently treat me? What do you know about my ethnicity?
How do you feel when if I'm going to talk
about how racist white people are, Like what do you
think about you know, the black lives matters, and like
all the protests and like there's just like hundreds of
questions that you could ask your therapist to make sure
(07:34):
that they are a good fit for you. And I
don't think that a lot of clients know that they
can like interview their therapist on that first session and
ask that therapist tell me, like the specific training that
you've received, talk to me about like the supervisors and
the consultation groups that you're in. So I know that,
so that I know that you can competently treat me.
So that's a whole thing.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah. I love that you're giving clients and just people
the like empowering them with a language and tools to
advocate for themselves. I love that so you talked about
your relationship with these therapy apps that have really become
ubiquitous in the last few years, things like better Help
and talk Space. You know, when I first heard about
(08:16):
these apps, they did really seem like an accessible way
for folks to access like therapists. But so many therapists
I've heard from do not like these apps. Can you
tell me why that is?
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Yeah, but let's start there. Like, you're right, the accessibility
that these apps have like tapped into it is so
incredibly difficult, and I wish it wasn't. It's a systemic issue,
but it's so incredibly difficult for somebody to just like
find a therapist it's a good match for them. There's
a ton of searching that you have to do. There's
(08:48):
confusing insurance that you have to like wade through. It
can be expensive, there's like a ton of roadblocks. So
many therapists are booked, especially because everybody in the fun
and world decided to get therapy at the same goddamn time,
which is totally fine. I get it. I understand. I
love that you're getting therapy, but therapists are so busy,
(09:11):
so you're just like you even if you find a
therapist who is a good match. It's incredibly frustrating because
they might not have any openings. But then betterhelp Talkspace,
Cerebral other apps like that have come along and they're
just like, hey, click a button, we are the uber
of therapy. Download the app, click this button, check the
terms of service, don't worry about reading it. It's confusing anyways,
(09:34):
and we will set you up with a therapist, just
any therapist. Is it a good match? I don't know.
We hope so maybe. But like they've tapped into the
accessibility part where it's just like it's so understandable, Like
people are getting so frustrated, so of course they're going
to go to these apps, especially like younger people that
(09:54):
are used to doing that.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Yeah, that is an excellent point that they really did
identif by a true need that exists out there. Of
it's difficult to find a therapist. And we talk a
lot on this show about bad things that the internet
and tech bring to us, but I was talking with
bridget the other day. One of the things she mentioned
was how her favorite stories are about the great things
(10:18):
that the internet does to like bring people together or
help somebody be seen or find whatever it is that
they're looking for, and it really seems like they sort
of zeroed in on that and it is a real
need that they've addressed it is.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
It's a real need. And on the platforms there are
actually amazing therapists, Like my beef is not what the
therapists that are contracted to provide therapy. They are like
trained to you know, end licensed and they're they're great.
(10:55):
So yeah, they tap into a need and somebody needed
to do it. And it's because like because therapists and
private practice cannot all get their shit together. We're all
running our own little individual small businesses, so we can't
all come together and like figure out how to solve
this problem. It's not just therapists are being to come together.
(11:16):
It's just like so many layers of everything that needs
to come together in order to fix this. So these
tech companies, which are super savvy, they're the ones that
did it. So bravo, I hate you.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
You compared these apps to Uber, and you know it's
one of those things like should getting a therapist, should
starting the journey to like deal with your trauma, unpack
your issues? Should that look like an Uber business model
that we know has so much exploitation, whether it's the
exploitation of drivers, the exploitation of writer details and writer privacy.
(11:48):
Should should that relationship mimic uber and I would argue, no,
it shouldn't. That accessibility is good. The idea of having
a therapist at your fingertips sounds great, but when you
actually think of at it harder, you're like, wait, should
therapy be the same be a similar kind of business
framework as something like an uber where you can get
a ride at the push of a button. And maybe
(12:10):
this driver isn't being treated well and maybe they aren't
being super careful with my data. Who knows, I don't know.
The answers might be buried in the third page of
some you know, murky privacy documents somewhere, like I'm not
really sure. Should getting into a relationship with a therapist
really be the same way that it is when you
just like hail a taxi to your home?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yeah? I mean no, I think not at all, because, like,
you know, if someone's driving you from the restaurant to
your home, Like, I don't know, I guess that person
can kind of be anybody as long as they're like
good enough, you know, they're not going to bother you.
They're going to like be quiet whatever, they'll they'll do
what they need to do to get you from like
(12:49):
point A to point B. But when you're looking for
a therapist, it's not just like are they good enough?
Are they going to like talk to you or listen?
It's like are they actually qualified to treat you? Do
they understand on your experience in a like deep way?
And you need to shop around for therapists and talk
to multiple therapists in order to find somebody who's a
good enough match. And instead of just being handed one
(13:13):
like Uber would do, or like talk space or better
help does so. No, I don't think so, but there
are apps and tech companies that like understand that Betterhelp
is not doing this well and somebody else needs to
do it better. So there is like a newer app
(13:34):
that's I think is maybe just in like Florida or
Georgia right now, called Hurdle. Have you ever heard of Hurdle? No, yeah,
it's I just heard about it. And they contacted me
to like let me know about what they're doing. And
they contacted me because they're like, hey, can you sponsor
us on TikTok and I said no, but only because
(13:55):
it sort of like conflicts with therapy done where I'm
trying to connect people. So it's anyways, I love them
and what they're doing, what they've started out doing where
they're like paying therapists, Well we should talk about that
with Better Help, because they're not and they're like making
sure that all the therapists on the platform are competently
trained in racial justice and social justice and they're transcompetent
(14:18):
and queer competent, and they're continuously going through trainings and
so like they're doing it the right way. So there
are apps and services out there that are starting to
do it the right way. But Better Help and Talk
Space they're like these first movers that have amazing marketing,
especially Better Help and and yeah, so's it might be
(14:42):
hard to compete with them.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
It's interesting that you say that they have better marketing,
you know, because I've looked at your tiktoks and I
think one of the big criticisms is how they harvest
people's data and use it for marketing and advertising. And uh,
you know, I clicked through I read their privacy form
(15:07):
and yeah, they're just using all of your data, including
your communications with your counselor for third party marketing, and
so it made me wonder, like how much of their
business model is actual therapy delivery and how much are
they an advertising company?
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Exactly? Yes, they get so much amazing personal data on
your mental health information, who you are, when was your
you know, are you suicidal, when was your last suicide attempt?
How much money do you make? Uh, where do you live,
what are your pronouns? What's your sexual orientation? Uh, what's
(15:44):
your gender? Like there's They get the most detailed information
about how much, how often you're talking to your therapist,
if you're meeting your therapist goal, if you're married, counseling goals,
like so much stuff incredibly valuable. I don't know like
how much money they make off of it, or if
they make any money off it, if they're making all
of their money off of that, but they that information
(16:07):
is incredibly valuable, and they did. They were a little
bit more clear a few months ago when I made
one of my first TikTok videos about them and going
through their privacy policy about like all the information that
they collect. Since I sort of like exposed them and
it got, you know, over a million views of their
like privacy policy, and they've changed their privacy policy to
(16:29):
make it so much more vague and so much more
confusing and actually gives them so much more leeway when
it comes to like sharing your data. They can share
your data with their corporate partners. Do you know who
their corporate partners are? Fuck? No, who the fuck knows?
I have no idea. They don't list them. They can
share it with their ad network. You know who's in
their ad network? I have no fucking idea. Probably a
(16:52):
ton of people. They can. They can use it for
marketing purposes and whatever the hell they want to use
it for. So we don't know why, what they're using
for exactly, We don't know who they're sharing it with,
we don't know how much money they're making off of it.
And the only way that you can use their app
is if you check off the terms of service, which
(17:13):
like allows them to use all this information. I would
love it if they gave you an option to not
like sell your data on my HBO Mac subscription. There's
a little checkbox that says, are we allowed? Can we
like use your third party data? And I can just
be like, nope, better help doesn't do that And why
would they ever do it because they're probably making a
(17:33):
ton of money.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Something else that I'd like to mention is that you
know they're able to sell your information to third parties,
and so if they sold your information to a company
like Facebook, then you think about all the different data
that we know that Facebook is able to collect, combined
with whatever they have from your your relationship with your
counselor through better help, it becomes clearer. Just like we're
(17:57):
not talking about little bits and pieces of data. They
really can and mine and harvest a real composite like
portrait of who you are and sell that for profit.
And I just fundamentally believe that that is not how
a relationship with a mental health specialist should look. And
to me, there is not another word for that other
(18:17):
than like exploitation. And like I guess, I really see
it as this kind of capitalistic mining of the most
sensitive stuff about us so that corporate interests can get
better pockets. And it's just so depressing and demoralizing.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Oh god, it is, it really is.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Let's take a quick break er back. So you might
be thinking, what about HIPPA, the Health Insurance Portability and
Accountability Act, a law that created national standards to protect
(19:00):
patient health information from being disclosed without consent. Doesn't HIPPA
prevent our health information from being used to sell things?
In this case, the answer is not really. Our producer
Mike works with health information, and that means he spends
a lot of time dealing with hippap Here's what he
had to say.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
I work within the constraints of HIPPA every day, and
I think it's probably one of the most misunderstood laws
in America. People think HIPPA protects all of their health
information all of the time, but it doesn't. HIPPA only
applies to a very narrow set of actors and circumstances. Basically,
it applies to healthcare providers and their contractors. Better Health
is neither of those things. In a page on their
(19:38):
website convincingly titled online therapy Services, are they legit question mark,
they repeatedly use phrases like HIPPA compliant therapists. What they
don't say is that the therapists are bound by HIPPA
because they're providing healthcare. But better Health the platform is not.
Because they aren't providing healthcare. They're simply connecting you with
the providers and so they are bound only by the
(19:58):
terms of service by creating an account. HIPPO was signed
into law in nineteen ninety six, around the same time
Bill Clinton was describing the Internet as an information super highway.
It's authors never imagined all the ways the Internet would
revolutionize how we access healthcare. And so we've come to
this place where most Americans believe their private health information
(20:19):
is legally protected, but that's just not always true. In reality,
many of the digital services we use have no greater
legal obligation to protect information about our health than information
about what TV shows we like to watch or what
types of sneakers we want to buy. So the question is,
are we okay with for profit tech companies like betterhelp
setting the precedent around privacy and digital health services because
(20:42):
that's where we're at.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
And one of the questions that I get all the time, Yeah,
because you're right, they know you intimately, like so many
things about you. And the question I get is like,
how is this not a hip of violation? What is
making this okay? So if you are my client and
you're seeing me in my private practice, I'm your therapist,
(21:06):
all the notes that I write on you is actually
your property. That's all yours. You can go to your therapist.
You can be like, give me my notes, and a
therapist legally has to hand that over to you. That's
all of your medical information we need to give it.
So if my client came in and was like, Jeff,
give me all of the notes that you've been keeping
(21:26):
on me, and I give it over to them, they
could take all of those all that mental health information,
and they could sell it to an advertiser. They can
give it to Facebook. As a client, you can do
whatever you want with your medical information. And that's what's happening.
When you sign up for Better Help. You're saying, Okay,
all of the information that I'm providing to this therapist
(21:47):
is mine, and now I'm giving it to you Better Help.
You can do whatever you want with it. So that's
another way that they're able to get around it. And
so one of my big things was like, oh, you know,
I can fuck over Better Help if I can like
go to the state licensing boards in all of the states.
I'd start with like California and New York and be like, Okay,
(22:09):
y'all therapists are seeing these clients and they know that
the client information that we like ethically legally have to
keep confidential is being given to Better Help and given
to like advertisers. Should these therapists be allowed to provide
therapy on Better Help? Should these therapists be disciplined or
(22:30):
have their license taken away? Not that I want to
get those licenses taken away, but maybe I can put
pressure on Better Help. And the problem is is that
like what I just mentioned, it's the client information and
they can hand it over. There also is somebody something
in Hippa where like Hippo's just like everything has to
say confidential unless maybe it's used for marketing purposes and
(22:53):
it's anonymoused, so like they also have that like gray area.
There's so many things that are detecting Better Help.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
It seems though that like stepping back to harvest all
of this personal information about somebody's mental health and then
use it to make advertising revenue, it just feels.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Wrong, right, like oh there's that. Yeah, it just doesn't
sit well. It just doesn't feel okay. That shouldn't be
happening obviously, like abows your therapistness, anonymizing your info and
selling it to advertisers. I would lose my license and
I should that just shouldn't be a part of the
therapy process. But we're in this like funky, weird, shitty
(23:38):
capitalist whatever time where like that's okay, and they're incredibly
protected and they're going to probably continue to do that.
And betterhelp is you know, they interacted with me a
little bit by like leaving some comments on some of
my TikTok videos, and now they have there just ignoring me,
which is probably a very good business decision on their
(23:58):
because like, who the fuck am I?
Speaker 1 (24:01):
I mean, you did like your tiktoks had an impact
when you were describing how they changed their you know,
their privacy policy. For a hot second, I thought you
were going to say they saw, you know, because of
my tiktoks that got millions of views and they changed
their privacy policy for the better. But then it was like, oh,
they just made it even more vague.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
No, because of me, I made it worse for everybody
by like pointing this out. They're just like, cool, we
need to be real fucking shady now, So you're welcome, America.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
When I saw the news out of Texas, it had
a really deep impact on me in a way that
I almost can't even articulate why. There was something about
the videos that were coming out of it that just
really hit me in a way that you know, you
think that you're desensitized to tragedy and disaster, but something
about those videos really stuck with me. And I think
(24:53):
seeing like the live stream with an Apple logo on it,
where I knew that young people were facing really scary circumstances,
I really can't shake the deep disturbed way that that
how disturbing that was to me, Like I don't know
why I've not been able to sort of like move
(25:14):
past it, but I have not. And when I woke
up again and saw that Travis Scott was partnering with
Better Help, that really it just seemed like a cherry
on top of this exploitation cake where these young people
had really been deeply exploited in the deepest, deepest ways
for profit, to make money for corporate interest, whether we're
(25:37):
talking about Live Nation, Travis Scott, the organizer's Apple streaming platforms, whatever,
and then in the aftermath of that horrific traumatic tragedy,
what they were being offered was just another way to
serve them up to be further mined and exploited and
it was like it broke my brain. I couldn't even
conceptualize the debts to how broken so many systems are
(26:01):
where that's the thing they're being offered and even still
one month of it, so it's like it's already shitty
what they're being offered. But it's not even that long.
Some of these kids probably have like complex PTSD. It
takes longer than a month to treat that. What were
your thoughts on that partnership?
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, garbage. I thought it was a dumpster fire. I
thought it was. I felt the same way that you felt. So, yeah,
it's like a bunch of you know, corporations creating trauma
and then sending those traumatized kids to Better Help where
they're going to like mine their data and make a
ton of money. It's it was disturbing, it was upsetting,
and it reminded me of when Better Help used to
(26:42):
I still think they kind of do this, but back
in like twenty eighteen twenty nineteen, they were going to
all the therapist directories out there that attract, you know,
the clients that are looking for therapists, and they're just
trying to like either buy them up or quote unquote
partner with them in order to like take all of
their business and like direct those those users into the
(27:04):
Better Help ecosystem. And so they approached me when I
like launched therapy then and they're like, hey, can we
go ahead and take like therapist profiles and add them
to your directory so that if any of the people
that are using your directory that you know, find they
could like find one of our Better Help therapists and
(27:26):
then create services or create you know, start therapy with them.
And every time somebody signs up for Better Help through therapy,
then will pay you three hundred dollars, which is a
ton of money. And because they're like, you could potentially
make eighty thousand dollars a month because we've like made
(27:48):
had this deal, created this deal with other therapist directories
that are the same size as yours. And I know
those therapist directories and I know the owners and some
of them are buddies of mine, So I was like
talking to them about like what went on, and those
therapist directories were like basically taken over and just used
as like a funnel in order to like you know,
get even more people to sign up for Better Help.
(28:10):
So you don't really own your therapist directory anymore. They
just sort of like take it over because they put
thousands and thousands twenty thousand different like therapist profiles or
something like on on your directory. And it's also like
therapy done is about like matching people with like a
good competent therapist that you know is a good fit,
(28:31):
and Better Help can't do that at all. It's a
therapy mel So it didn't feel okay, it allow would
lose control, Like it just didn't feel like a good
match at all. And I like started to That's when
I started to like really learn about their privacy policy
and the data mining and shit like that. And I
would imagine that like all the marketing that they do
that Better Help does, and all the podcasts and NPR
(28:53):
and shit like that, all of those companies are probably
getting like a very nice kickback because Betterhelp was like, Hey,
on average, we make twelve hundred dollars, we bring in
twelve hundred dollars. When somebody who signs up for Better Help,
we are very much willing to like pay you three
hundred dollars when we collect twelve hundred dollars. Also, we're
going to pay the therapist. Shit so like it's not
(29:15):
even like we have like too much of an overhead cost.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
You talk about how the therapists are just not only
are they not paid what like like a comparable amount
that they can make in private practice or elsewhere, but
also you know they're I learned from your tiktoks they're
sometimes paid by the word, and so once they hit
their work out, they kind of have to decide if
they want to continue treating a client who very well,
maybe in crisis, basically out of the goodness of their
(29:40):
heart because they care about this client. For free, clients
can access their therapists twenty four hours a day, seven
days a week, which sounds really good in theory. But
then you're like, should you have access to a therapist
twenty four to seven I would say no, that maybe
you should have some boundaries around how you access your therapist.
It's kind of stunning to hear about how much money
(30:02):
they must be taking in via how much money gets
spent gets given to their actual therapists who are doing
the work of the stating this platform.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yeah, one, I mean that the therapists are getting maybe
around thirty a little less than thirty dollars an hour Ideally,
if you're a therapist and you're seeing clients who want
to get at least one hundred dollars an hour, that's
what we're aiming for, if not more if you live
in more expensive cities. But but our help is like,
we will pay you up to fifty dollars an hour
(30:34):
if you work more hours per week. So if you
work up to fifty hours a week, you'll get our
top pay, which is fucking bonkers. I don't even understand
why that's a pay scale that exists. Like, work fifteen hours,
get thirty dollars or less an hour, work up to
fifty hours a week more, I don't know. That's the
(30:55):
whole fucking thing. I hate that. And then it's they
pay you based on word count, so you can't go
over the word count that they like provide if you
do start like providing more support, if you start texting
more support and going over the word count, you're working
for fucking free therapists. They're not going to pay you
for it. So maybe they're paying you thirty dollars an hour,
(31:15):
but it's actually a lot less if you like feel
like you need to give even more support to that client,
and of course, just like uber and Lyft or whatever,
like you're not getting benefits. You're a contract. You're not
like getting paid time off, you know, like you have
to provide all of your equipment, you know. So it's
just like it's a bunch of bullshit that therapists are
(31:37):
getting exploited, and they're able to exploit these therapists that
are usually like fresh out of grad school or just
looking for a little part time work or something, And yeah,
twenty four hour access to a therapist clinically no, not okay,
that's not creating self reliance. You need to be able
to kind of like go and do your thing and
then be able to check back with your therapist. I
understand why that's appealing though, but imagine under stand that
(32:00):
that therapist with a caseload of like ten twenty thirty,
forty fifty clients a week, You're they're getting pinged all
the fucking time. So there's no way that a therapist
is able. But like a therapist must have to it's
in their contract that they have to respond within twenty
four hours, no matter what day or time it is,
(32:21):
which is not very realistic. Plus there's this like thing
where like if there's if betterhelp has like a flood
of people signing up, They're like, Okay, I know that
you have a ton of clients, but will you take
these new clients? Will pay you more for these new clients,
which sort of incentivizes therapists to drop their old clients
that they're not getting paid enough for in the first place,
(32:41):
to then take the new clients. It's such a stupid,
fucked up system. I hate it. Can you tell?
Speaker 1 (32:47):
It's so fucked up? And this is not how therapy
is meant to be. This is not how it should
look to access mental health care. And you know, in
the wake of the astront World thing, it's like it
is a it's an exploitation layer cake where the clients,
the potential clients, are going to be exploited, the therapists
running the side are being exploited. Everybody's being exploited except
(33:09):
for the tech overlords who like are possibly like making
money from the people that are being referred from this tragedy. Honestly,
talking to you has helped me make sense of why
it made me so deeply, deeply angry and disgusted, like
I had such a visceral reaction. Also just the use
of the word partnership, like, you know, using this tragedy
(33:29):
as a branding opportunity. I really found it deeply, deeply,
like just disgusting, and I think talking to you is
really made it so clear that yeah, that wasn't that
was it. I was almost about to say, like an
irrational response, that was a rational response, because it is
really fucked up, but it is really disgusting.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah, it's a very rational response to a very irrational
thing that's occurring.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Totally, You've described all these numbers of like caseloads of
forty or fifty patients a wee, Which like, what a joke.
How can you be providing like high quality of care.
I haven't heard you say anything about like the evaluation
process or you know, any sort of quality controlled do
you know if they do, Like I just have to
(34:14):
imagine that the quality of care that patients are receiving
is pretty low with a caseload like that. But is
that something that they look at or measure or talk about.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Yeah, I don't know. It's a good question. I've never
come across any sort of like data or survey about
the quality of care, So I don't know, And I
just feel I feel bad for everybody involved. I feel
really bad for the therapists that are getting burnt out,
that are kind of like forced to work longer or
more hours. And this is I don't know, I don't
(34:47):
know if I can say that, Well whatever, maybe we'll
head it out. But there's can you say that if
you want to. You're somebody that's seeing a better help
therapist and you really like like your therapist, because there's
a ton of really great therapists on there, and this
conversation is upsetting or disturbing you. If you wanted to
(35:12):
ask your better help therapist, if they have their own
private practice and they are accepting clients, then that's something
you can ask them and you can talk to them about.
The better help therapists obviously are not allowed to be
like out of private practice. If you want to see
me there and you know, even pay me, if you like,
(35:32):
pay that therapist the same amount that you're giving better help,
then what their hourly rate has doubled or tripled, you
know by that time. So so, because I get a
lot of feedback like, oh but I love my better
help therapist. Let stick with that better help therapist. I'm
so happy for you. Also, maybe you can see them
in their private practice and get out of like better
(35:54):
Help if you want to. I think I can say that.
I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Yeah, I think that's good if vice, because it sounds
like you're being so clear that you're not trying to
say that better Help doesn't have great, kick ass therapists
on the platform, but that the platform itself does not
support these therapists to giving the best quality of care
that they can, and so there might be other ways
to access that same therapist that you might love who's
(36:18):
on Better Help in a way where they're not being
sort of set up to give you not as good
of care as you could be getting otherwise.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
Right exactly, And your therapists in their private practice probably
won't sell all your personal mental health information.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Most likely they are not going to do that.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
More after a quick break, let's get right back into
it now. I'm not the only one who has a
problem with Better Helps partnership with Travis Scott. In the
wake of the Astro World tragedy. The response has not
(37:03):
been good, and Betterhelp is working overtime to correct what
they're calling misinformation about their platform. Now, it's worth noting
that Better Help waited until the partnership got negative reactions
online to clarify pretty basic details about the arrangement, frankly,
making patient protection seem like kind of an afterthought. They
(37:24):
released an FAQ where they say that people who use
the free month of Better Help services will not be
billed after that month is up, and they say that
Travis Scott isn't making any money from the partnership. Now,
I've heard a lot of tech company corporate devil speaking
my day, and I'd like the company to clarify whether
this also pertains to any business or philanthropic entities Travis
(37:45):
Scott might be affiliated with. They also answer the frequently
asked question, is information members enter on Betterhealth ever sold
to advertising platforms or third parties? Now they answer this
with an emphatic no. Period. That can't be the whole
story because on their own privacy policy, in the section
called purposes for which information is used, they say your
(38:07):
information may be used to quote personalized website experience, including
targeted offers and ads throughout our websites, third party sites,
and via email or text message. They also say quote,
we may share your information with any subsidiaries or parent
companies within our corporate group. So who are these other
companies in their corporate group and what products are being advertised?
(38:30):
Is Better Health using your personal mental information to buy
ads or sell ads? Why rely on such vague language
when discussing something as important as our health and privacy?
I believe Better Health is intentionally exploiting vague language and
gray areas and their privacy policies to mislead the public,
which under normal circumstances is bad, but it's especially egregious
(38:52):
to do that after a tragedy. Do you feel like
the public it's owed a little bit of transparency about
this partnership. I feel like, especially given that the folks
who were at that festival are like a lot of
them are young people. I feel like it is a
public like a public good for Better Help and or
Travis Scott to say, hey, we're doing this therapy, this
(39:13):
therapy partnership for folks who were impacted by this tragedy.
Here's who's making money on it, Here's how your data
is going to be used. You know here, like whether
Travis Scott, Better Help or both are making some sort
of like cut or kickback. Do you feel like it's
in the public interest for us to have that information
in a transparent way.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Oh my god. Yes, And like in my most recent
TikTok video that's on Twitter and everywhere else, I'm saying that,
like what's going on, Like, let's be clear here who's
getting paid? Uh do how do you continue care after
that one month? How much is it going to cost
in order to like continue? Like there, it's just also murky.
(39:57):
So yeah, I would love if there's more transparency around.
But the way that better help operates is just like
they're very good at like making shit real vague, and unfortunately,
whenever I push against them, or anyone pushes up against them,
they just get even more vague and more vague and
get into that gray area. So hopefully this will like
get more people to become concerned and ask them to
(40:18):
be more transparent about what they're doing and the deal
that's being set up.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Travis Scott, Yeah, I just feel like we're in this
age where things that technology that is meant to be
like a wellness focused thing or a mental health focused thing,
we're in this weird gray area where everything feels kind
of scammy and like not really regulated, and so we
have all of these apps that are sort of mental
(40:41):
health ish or like wellness ish or like medical care ish,
and you just have to add, like are these regulated?
Are they safe? Am I actually getting good information from
like a competent trained medical health professional. I wonder, like,
do you feel the same way that we're in this
sort of wild West where there are so many tech
platforms offering us wellness or you know, medical care, but
(41:06):
in this very gray area way where they can sort
of avoid having to answer some of these questions about
you know, the quality of care that you're actually getting.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Oh yeah, for sure. And they're so savvy, they're so slick,
they know exactly what they're doing, so you just kind
of like give this like these ish services and it
works well enough. And also you know all these like
podcasts or MPR whoever, like it's such a good look
(41:36):
for them. I'm like, oh, therapy, you know, like it
looks like there. It's so nice to quot unquote partner
with them because it sort of like lifts their brand up.
You know, so it's just like this feel good, lovely thing,
but we don't know what's going on like right behind
the scenes, and MPR, fuck you, MPR. They're like I
hate that MPR. It's like running ads all over the place.
(42:00):
I mean it's all over Oregon with like NPR and
OPB over here where there's just I'm constantly hearing Better
Help and I'm emailing NPR and Oregon Public Procects. I'm
like letting them know, like I want to be on
your show. This is not okay. If you understood the
values of this company, you would have a fucking aneurysm
about it. But like they're not responding to me and
(42:21):
they're not doing anything about it. So it's this weird
like halo effect that happens when they do partner with
these Better Help and like, yeah, no, yeah, I don't know,
I'm agreeing with everything that you're saying, so yeah, yeah,
And it's.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
I mean, you've said a mouthful. And I know in
the podcast space specifically that Better Help has a It's
like one of those ubiquitous brands that you hear if
you listen to podcasts, you've definitely heard of Better Help ad.
And I have, you know, friends and colleagues who I'm
sure do Better Help ads. And I'm not trying to
like call anybody out, but I also feel like you
(42:54):
have to take a little bit of responsibility for the
cop for like not so it's not just a financial
arrangement where they pay you and you read the ad.
But if you sound like you're endorsing their their values
and endorsing their practices, and if you're using your like
MPR voice to make this service seem really good and
(43:14):
progressive and like a good like a good idea, like
I do think we have to step back and ask
some hard questions of ourselves about whether or not we're
allowing brands whose values do not align with our own
to be kind of brandwa washed by our like you know,
slick podcaster voice or you know, or be like the
(43:35):
relationship that podcast listeners have with the with their hosts
right like I feel like it like it exploits the
connection that listeners have with their favorite podcast host to
make these to make brands that are not so good
seem like they're actually aligned with their values.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
I guess mm hmm, you said it totally. I keep
on saying it. But like Betterhelp one of the best
marketing teams I've ever seen. They're so good and they
know exactly when to turn off their comments on TikTok
videos because like they are, Oh, they're totally fucking off
because like all the TikTokers are just like, whoa, we
(44:15):
don't like this. This isn't like thank you Jeff for
like being transparent and like like explaining their privacy policy.
We're going to spam all their TikTok videos and you can't.
They block everybody, like they know how to turn all
that shit off. So yeah, I think podcasters and everyone
with their NPR voices like really need to think about
(44:35):
And also, like I guarantee all these podcasters are not
getting their therapy through better help, Like no way are
they actually doing that. So yeah, I agree.
Speaker 3 (44:49):
It's interesting you mentioned the you know, the halo effect there,
and you know this moment that we're in where there
are all these potentially scammy ish mental health services and
it's like mental health it's only sort of recently become
a thing that we all are talking about and acknowledging
(45:10):
as like something that needs to be dealt with, but
it's still like a very private personal thing. And I
wonder if that like contributes to the viability of scams
like this what you know, maybe it's a scam, maybe
it's not. But like when an actor is going to
participate in delivering mental health services but not respect that
(45:34):
like privacy piece of it and just you know, completely
violate those norms in pursuit of profit. It's a pretty
dangerous tech enabled place.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
One of the good things is that it's sort of
like breaking its mental health stigma is is like reducing
So that's also one of the things that's like a
good thing that's happening. But at what cost because there's
like so much information and data sharing and like ads
being directed more towards you because of this. So like
(46:07):
yay for accessibility, yay for like the stigmatization, but like
this is like profiting these huge tech companies so much,
and it's so upsetting and it's so disturbing, and we
need to talk even more about it.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
H Well, I mean so we we we don't fuck
with better health, but as we know, like it can
be so hard to get accessed to with therapists, So like,
what are some alternatives to services like better Health that
might be a little less scammy, uh and exploited it
If folks out there want to access mental health services
(46:45):
but don't know where to start.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
I mean, I'm biased, but I love therapyn dot com. Uh.
Start there. There's another therapist directory that I am in
love with, Inclusive Therapists dot com. Uh the same sort
of vibe and mission and values as therapy den dot com.
The thing is is, like you kind of have to
(47:08):
be okay or understand accepting of the fact that, like
this is going to be a journey for you. Finding
a therapist is going to take some time. And the
reason it's going to take time is because you need
to find somebody who's a really good match and who
can competently treat you. So you're gonna have to like
interview three, four, five, ten therapists possibly to like find
(47:32):
somebody who's a good match for you. It's grueling and
it sucks and I don't like it. But starting a
therapy don dot com, Inclusive therapist dot com even just
like googling somebody you know, like trying or going to
Psychology Today dot com to like go through their therapist directory,
find a therapist that's in private practice. You'll like the
(47:53):
quality of care is through the roof compared to the
quality of care that you get from betterhelp, just because
the way the betterhelp is like set up, So have
some patients. Really educate yourself. Ask all of the questions
that you want, like how can you compident competently train me?
(48:13):
What's your background? But also like if you want, you
can be like are you married? Do you have kids?
Are you from this city? Where do you hang out? What?
What do you think about? Like who's your favorite sports team?
Do you garden? Whatever the fuck you want? Like are
you like ask all the questions. Therapists don't have to
answer all these questions, but I want you to ask
(48:35):
all the questions that will make you feel more comfortable
talking to that therapist. Ask them like do you diagnose?
What do you think my diagnosis might be? What is
treatment going to look?
Speaker 3 (48:45):
Like?
Speaker 2 (48:46):
Are you cool? Whatever you need to do? So you
need to start therapyded dot com wherever the hell you
want to start, and then understand that you have to
like go on a journey.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
Honestly, if it was not for your tikto, I would
not have known any of this, Like, I don't think
there's a lot of resources out there to help people
understand companies or platforms like betterhealth and so I'm so
I'm so glad that you're making the content that you
are because I think that you're helping people take ownership
over there, or you're empowering people to advocate for themselves
(49:19):
and take ownership over how they access these services. And
so I'm so grateful for you. Where can folks keep
up with you?
Speaker 2 (49:27):
Yeah, so you can look for search for Therapy then
on TikTok and Twitter and Instagram. I am also I
produce a podcast called Swoon Love Lessons with Julian Gina.
So Julian Gina are sex therapists and experts and every
now and then I'll hop on and be on a
(49:48):
podcast episode with them. So you can find me there
talking like given love advice. I'm an amazing at giving
love advice. So so that's where you can find me,
and you can personally email me at Hello at therapy
dot com if you have any questions.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
The Astra World disaster has turned into a hotbed of
conspiracy theories. In our next episode, we'll hear from researcher
Abby Richards about why this tragedy has resulted in satanic
panic on social media platforms like TikTok. Got a story
about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to
say hi? You can reach us at Hello at tangodi
(50:28):
dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode
at tengody dot com. There Are No Girls on the
Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. It's a production
of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.
Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almado
is our contributing producer. I'm your host, bridget Tood. If
you want to help us grow, rate and review us
(50:49):
on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out
the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
A love bell lived, a long love and well lived.
Popular Podcasts
1. Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
2. Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
3. Crime Junkie
If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people.