Celebrating Black history by preserving our voices - BEST OF TANGOTI

We're popping in from our hiatus to celebrate Black history, Black presence, and Black futures by revisiting our conversation with archivist Jocelyn Robinson.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello. So we've put on a short break from the podcast,
but I just couldn't stay away. And recently Apple picked
five Black creators disrupting their fields to spotlight for Black
History Month. And I'm really pleased and humbled and honored
to say that the Tangoti community were among the voices
that Apple says are disrupting technology. And I could not

(00:20):
be prouder. So thank you Apple for spotlighting black creators,
and most importantly, thanks to all of you for listening.
It really means so much to me. And in honor
of all this, I'm revisiting one of my favorite episodes,
my conversation with archivist Jocelyn Robinson about her work preserving
black voices literally by archiving audio from historically black colleges

(00:41):
and universities. I hope your month is full of celebrating
Black history, the Black present, and beautiful Black futures. And
we'll be back soon with more episodes of There Are
No Girls on the Internet. Happy Black History Month. You
hear everything in her voice, You hear her life in
her voice, you hear the black experience inner voice. It's

(01:03):
just um, yes, it's transportive, it's it's transcendent. There Are
No Girls on the Internet. As a production of I
Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this
is there are No Girls on the Internet. The Internet

(01:27):
is ephemeral. How can you archive something that happened on
social media or something that existed completely online. That's actually
one of the reasons why I created this very podcast.
I saw all the ways that underrepresented communities contribute to
the Internet and technology, but I saw those same contributions
being overlooked or forgotten. I didn't want them to fade away.

(01:51):
Audio was a bit like that too. Tape fades, hard,
drives crash, and pieces get lost forever. In the a
of searching text, audio is that much harder to hold onto.
But there's something magical about the medium of audio. Hearing
someone tell their stories in their own words just hits differently.

(02:12):
That's why it's so important that we be intentional about
whose voices we preserve. Joscelyn Robinson is an audio producer
and preservationist, and she has long standing roots in the
museum community. What if she thought we could survey the
audio archives of the voices and stories housed it radio
stations on the campuses of historically Black Colleges and Universities

(02:33):
or HBCUs. So in her late fifties, she quitted a job,
went back to school, and made it her mission. Joscelyn
served as the very first archives fellow at Dayton, Ohio's
only national public radio station, w y s O, where
she produced Rediscovered Radio, a series built around w y
s o's Civil rights era audio. Now, Joscelyn works with

(02:56):
HBCUs to start a dialogue around preserving the audio at
the radio stations. Her work, it's grounded and making sure
we preserve our stories and in doing so that we
preserve the magical audio. So how did you get into
your work preserving audio and historically black colleges. In two
thousand thirteen, I took a an audio production course at

(03:20):
the local public radio station, and I just got bit
by the bug. And by two thousand and fifteen, I
had quit my day job and was producing part time
and teaching part time. And um I had always in
the back of my mind, had this idea that um I,

(03:43):
you know, would love the thought of doing a long
form audio at HBCUs because it's not something that's typically
taught in mass communications courses and programs. And when I
was working initially, UM, I used some chival audio from
w y s SO that is mainly from the sixties

(04:05):
and seventies into the eighties, UM, and so it reflected
the civil rights era and also the movement into black nationalism,
the peace movement, anti war movement of the seventies, and
I just became enamored of of um historical materials kind

(04:27):
of related to my background in the museum community. There's
around a hundred roughly HBCUs it in exists today, and
a third of them just about have radio stations. And
I thought, you know, if w y s O has
this kind of material, um it was also a college
radio station, initially at Antioch College in Yellow Springs, if

(04:48):
that college radio station has such incredible material, and I
mean it's incredible material, and the voices of people whom
were significant from those areas are represented there as well
as the history of the local area and the college
and the state, and you know what was going on
in the world. But I thought, HBCUs, being the crucible

(05:12):
of the civil rights movement in so many ways, must
have some materials too, and so I had I had
thought about it, and when I quit my day job,
I went back to school and got a grad certificate
in public history with a with a focus on archives,
so that I would be knowledgeable about the archival process
and about the materials and and and their preservation and um.

(05:37):
In the course of doing that, I kind of fell
into a preservation activity that was initiated at the Library
of Congress, the Radio Preservation Task Force, And that just
opened up this whole world of people who were seeking
out and figuring out how to preserve and use these
materials all over the world. So I was aware of

(05:59):
this this world, but I became kind of immersed in it,
and I became a member of the African American and
Civil Rights Radio Caucus of the Radio Preservation Task Force,
and went to conferences and did presentations with this idea that, um,
wouldn't it be great if we could survey the materials

(06:20):
at historically black colleges and universities And someday, if I
can find the funding for it, That's what I'm gonna do.
Johnston got a grant from the National Recording Preservation Foundation
to s h B c U s about what kind
of audio were housed at their campus radio stations. How
tragic is it to think that an audio recording of
rosa parks could be collecting dust and some campus basement somewhere. Well,

(06:44):
Johnston wanted to make sure these radio stations had access
to the ability to archive their audio. What I found
was that UM radio stations at most colleges are not
necessarily included in the institutional records management or preservation efforts
that they that the college normally takes takes on, and

(07:09):
that it was an opportunity to connect the radio stations
with the institutional archives on their campuses and at least
get a dialogue going, if not get the institutional archives
to take on the task of preserving the audio audio material.
So what wasn't exactly about HBCUs. Why did you feel
like it was so important to be doing that work

(07:32):
on HBCU campuses, having sort of an intimate understanding of
the challenges that are faced by HBCUs and also their
importance to UM, the American Higher education UM landscape, but
UH and to our communities. And there were times when

(07:53):
you know, teachers, doctors, UM lawyers, UM engineers were you know,
trained primarily at HBCUs and UM. And that's one of
the things that distinguishes historically black college from a predominantly
white institution, so um so to me, they are precious.

(08:14):
They are sacred ground and um and they are in
their communities UM and you know here in Ohio world
bit isolated. But as I got to know the other
um uh my my counterparts at other campuses and got
to know their their their institutions, you know, and realizing
how important they are to um black people in this

(08:38):
country and particularly in the Southeast, they are hallowed ground
and and anything that took place there is is worthy
of of of not just preservation but also um uh
honoring to to to look to it as a as
an example of resilience. I don't know that we can
even imagine those of us who do not live in

(09:00):
the former Confederate States what life was like and and
how our institutions, UM, our churches are, our communities, but
but especially centered around um are. Historically black campuses were
refuges uh, places of uh you know, where the intellect

(09:23):
and ingenuity and um creativity of black people could um
shine and thrive and um you know that that's an
important um legacy to honor and with audio it's such
an intimate and um uh you know emotionally charged UM medium,

(09:48):
and I think that um, you know, finding materials, which
is very difficult. Radio is ephemeral and UM and not
a lot of recordings were made. At times, making recordings
was expensive. You know, a quarter inch tape was expensive.
The clayback equipment was was you know expensive, and and

(10:10):
and maybe a few and far between at times that changed,
you know, when the when cassettes became UM more prominent,
but but certainly when it was real to real you know,
that's a big bulky machine with a big bulky tape.
So um, you know, to try to find anything. And
and also you know the thing about radio stations is

(10:32):
that they often change format when when the license changes hands.
And what happens is whatever was happening before kind of
gets swept up and thrown out into the dumpster. So
to make sure that that anything that might be of
significance at an HBC radio station is you know, found

(10:54):
and preserved, is kind of it's a mission for sure.
Audio shall medium. That intimacy is one reason why he
became a podcaster in the first place. Hearing someone tell
their story it's just different than reading it in print.
Through her work, Jocelyn preserves this intimate magic for future generations.

(11:14):
I often wonder if listening if if people listening to
two audio producers talk about audio production, is is like boring.
But I have to say, when you talked about the
intimacy of the medium of audio, like that's what made
me fall in love with it. And I'll never forget
um my grandmother. She she's now passed away. She is
from Charlotte, North Carolina, and she is a you know,

(11:36):
uh black Southern matriarch of a big Southern family. And
at the University of North Carolina reached out to her
to do this archival project where she sat down and
and talked about her life with a researcher. And I
had read clips of this before and I really enjoyed
reading it. But one day I found the audio of her,
her telling of her telling these stories, and it something

(12:00):
about hearing her voice was so different. You know, I
had I had read, I had read what she had
said before, but hearing her say it in her own words,
I just I've always felt that there's something intimate and
magical about the medium of audio. Just you know, it's
so intimate, it's in your ears, and it just can

(12:22):
hit your can hit you in a different way I feel,
and I don't know. I guess I've always when people ask,
you know, why audio, I never really have a good answer,
but I think it just always comes back to that intimacy. Well,
one of the things that creates that intimacy, if you
think about it, is that if you were thinking of
other media, and we're thinking of especially a visual media,

(12:43):
what you see is what is in the frame. What
you see is what the person who made that image
or even whether it's moving or not, but what the
person you're seeing, what the person that made that image
um chose you to see what they curated for your eyes.
And with audio, I tell people you can't use photoshop

(13:07):
on audio. You cannot you cannot change what you what
you hear. Microphones are dumb, they're not smart. They look
up everything. So what you hear is what was heard.
You hear all of it. You hear the train whistle
in the background, you hear the sirens, you hear the
birds singing or the crickets chirping. And so not only

(13:30):
do you hear all of that, you hear the emotion
in someone's voice. You hear them take a breath and
think about what it is they're about to say. You
hear them choke up, you hear them laugh, you know,
so it's and and you hear it all um without

(13:51):
a filter, the same way that that you know that
with the visual um, that image is curated so um.
So I think that that's what creates that sense of
of of total experience, even though um, it's just coming
through your ears. And there's something about that vibration that

(14:12):
you know, it's on a vibrational level. You know that
even in a recording, even in effect simile, you can, um,
you can feel that vibration. When I first got into podcasting,
I was very self conscious because I was very new
at it, and so I would try to edit my
audio to make it seem as though, you know, I

(14:33):
was just the most well spoken person. I never you know,
used a filler word. I never like stopped and restarted.
I never had to catch my breath. I never you know,
cleared my throat while I was thinking. And it's funny
because those are all the little markers of somebody figuring
something out in real time. And that's actually why you
listen to audio, because you get these unfiltered, unedited moments

(14:55):
that don't that you aren't photoshops like you said. And
I think the more or that I when I realized
that the reason why I like audio is because you
get to hear the crickets chirping, and then this and
then that, and allowing that those little nuances to to
stay in my own audio, it really just I feel
like it all clicks for me. It really it really

(15:16):
helped me in the in the craft of audio storytelling.
Mm hmm. It's I think what it does is it
it helps us stay in touch with our humanity, you
know it even if it's even if something we're listening
to is is highly um uh produced, um, you still
get that that sense that that uh, you know, you're

(15:38):
you're hearing it. It's that hearing is and and and
listening are active, you know, um sorts of things. It's
that you're not passive. You have to you have to
pay attention, you know, you have to you you you
have to let your brain absorb you know, what's being
heard and and and makes sense out of it. So,
I mean, I think there's a humanness to to um

(16:01):
uh audio work that that really um you know, kind
of transcends, uh. The fact that we are using these
highly technical and technological tools to to um preserve it
and um disseminate it more. After this quick break, let's

(16:29):
get right back to it. So do you have a
maybe do you have an example of like a favorite
piece of audio that you have found in your work
or one that stuck with you. Um. Wow, that might
be a big question. That's a big question. You know,
I spend so much time UM listening that UM, I

(16:52):
listened to a lot of things and UM, you know,
I think that's what what I love about the archival
audio actually is that it transports me. You know, it
takes me back to a place there is um a.
I think it was probably a PACIFICA produced UM interview

(17:15):
with Maya Angelo that just you know still knocks my
soft socks off. And it's it's it was part of
w y s O s collection because back in the day,
um uh, folks used to swap tape. So it was
a tape that ended up somehow in w y s
O s UM tape library, but was produced UM I

(17:38):
believe at w b A if I'm not mistaken. So
it was it was um you know, from from years past,
and she sings on it um. She she not only
speaks her poetry, but she also sings a spiritual This
is uprising up next the late Great Angelou. It's in

(18:01):
the reach of my arms, the span of my hips,
the stid of my step, the curd of my lips.
Because I'm a woman, phenomenally phenomenal woman. That's me. If
you listen to it again. Anyways, we were just saying,

(18:23):
you hear everything in her voice. You hear her life
in her voice, you hear the black experience in her voice.
It's just Um, yes, it's transportive, it's it's transcendent, so transformative.
Um yeah, that's That's one of my favorite pieces of
audio for sure. According to the Women's Audio Mission, a

(18:44):
nonprofit that trains women engineers and producers, less than five
percent of the people creating the sounds music in media
that make up the daily sound check of our lives
are women or gender not conforming folks. And as a podcaster,
I know that our audio endscape definitely excused white and mail,
but it also tends to skew young, a dynamic that Jocelyn,

(19:06):
who quit her day job to train as an audio
producer in her late fifties, challenges so what was it
like getting involved in audio production as a woman in
her late fifties. What I felt like I was bringing
to the table was a you know, a lifetime of experience.

(19:27):
So the technical part of it was not a big
stretch for me. UM. And in fact, you know, the
first time I sat down with Hindenburg and started to
um edit my own tape, UM, you know, I was,
I was in the zone. I was in the flow

(19:48):
all I mean almost immediately. So, UM, I'm a musician,
you know, I I've I've done other creative pursuits in
my life and UM, and it was you know, I
recognized pretty quickly that I was doing something that was
filling my heart and soul in ways that other things

(20:10):
I had been doing UM was not so um you know.
So so the that part of it came pretty easily.
And then because I was working in some community based
UM you know production um uh areas, it wasn't really
UM an issue so much that here was this person

(20:34):
who in her fifties just you know, just starting out.
And I had a lot of success pretty early on
because I was doing work that I knew. I had
a series called Rediscovered Radio in which I took the
archival audio at w y s O and UM used
it to uh make short pieces, UM short document entery

(21:00):
pieces that aired UM on the radio station, you know
during the UM drivetime shows, so during morning edition and
all things considered. So I learned to work with the
with the NPR clock almost right away. UM. I was
doing interviews as well as UM contextualizing the historical audio

(21:22):
and putting it all together and UM that the first
I did two seasons of it, so UM you know,
I've done dozens and dozens of them. So I got
to work at the craft, UM like hands on UM
already producing for air material that UM you know, UH
was UM you know, the kind of production work that

(21:47):
I think you don't necessarily get to do. Even as
a young person. I was. I was the producer of
of of the series. I was able to take the
maturity that I had from the other parts of my life,
plus the fact that you know, I've been this high
level administrator and I know how to get things done. UM.
So I didn't have a lot of of UM down

(22:10):
time or you know, when I jumped into it, I
really got to jump into it. So so there was that,
But I have seen what I would consider ages m
in the in the field. And in fact, that's a
conversation that we're having at AIR right now about what
that looks like. And um, not only for people newly
entering the fields in a uh pivot, you know, in

(22:34):
their in their careers, but but people who have been
in the business for many, many many years and have
weathered all its changes as as it has progressed, and
are finding themselves now getting boxed out or or overlooked
for something younger, newer, fresher kinds of things. So now,
I think, because I work with historical materials and I

(22:56):
have a certain amount of of um firsthand knowledge some
of the events and and so forth. Um, you know,
it has served me really well. But you know, I
also have found that I need to push my um
uh my skill set and my my producing chops. I

(23:17):
have to just keep pushing it beyond that so that
I'm doing work that is um um you know, topical
and um you know again new and fresh and and
and you know, keeping not just myself but listeners, um
engaged with what's going on in the world. So UM, yeah,

(23:39):
I've just been really fortunate. It was all kind of
a perfect storm of goodness. That's kind of storm. Yeah,
you know, you talked about agism and how I don't know,
I guess I feel like we have this very pervasive
culture where we're obsessed with thirty under thirty lists and

(24:03):
people who are sort of young and successful. And that's
a that's a great story, but it does just it
does discount the wisdom and the skill set and the
experience that comes with age. And I feel like we
are so obsessed with youth that we can overlook that. Yeah,
if you if you came to audio production in your fifties,

(24:25):
that would mean that you would come with an entire
skill set, you know of and experience, like like many
years of experience. And I think that because we're obsessed
with youth, we don't allow for that to be as
meaningful and as good of a thing as it really
truly is, Oh no, no doubt, you know. And and

(24:45):
a lot of that is very cultural, and you know,
I mean it. One of the things that I have
been working with lately has been community based storytelling projects
and UM and much of that is focused on gathering
and preserving and sharing the stories of elders and going
back to UM, you know, a cultural mindset in which

(25:08):
the wisdom of elders is held in high esteem and um.
And that is you know, very much a a traditional
um traditional communities hold elders and high esteem and um.
You know, trying to move back towards that I think
is very important. But you know, work with oral histories

(25:30):
and um with uh, you know, interpreting some of the say,
for instance, interpreting some of the events that some of
the historical audio might um uh be representing. Is you
know who better than someone who was actually there and
who experienced it, you know, in their own lifetime. So
you know, really honoring the voices and the stories of

(25:53):
elders as part of this work, and finding that you know,
many of those elders are quite capable of of um
you know, producing and being um, you know, active participants
in that story gathering and that storytelling. So UM you know,
that's I think really important work. But but but truly,

(26:15):
it's it's it's very it's a it's a it's a
cultural thing in the US. For sure, it's not quite
as um I think, uh, you know intense in other places,
is it as it really is here? It definitely is
a cult of youth in the US, and UM, you know,
one of my favorite things to tell people is like,

(26:37):
there's this old Richard Prior bit where the junkie and
the wino are talking and the junkie says something him
to something to him of the effect it's like, you
old fool, and the wino says, boy, you don't get
to be old being no fool. I love that. I
love Let's take a quick break, let's get right back

(27:11):
in it. I hope to tell you, I mean, I
hope this isn't like too much information, But UM, I'm
speaking to you today from my brother's condo in Richmond, Virginia,
and I live in Washington, d C. And Um, the
reason why I'm here is because our father, UM had
a had an unexpected health emergency. So I'm here so
that I can take care of him while he's been

(27:31):
in the hospital this week. And he's he's on the upswing.
He's doing much better. But when I brought him in
on when he came to the hospital on um Monday night,
and he was not doing so well, all I could
think was that I wish I had brought my recorder
so that we could have a conversation so that I
could remember, I could hear his stories and get them

(27:54):
on audio. Like that was all I can think was, God,
I wish I had my recorder. God, I wish I
had my recorder so the we could have we could
you know, have a conversation, because often worry that, you know,
we all love to have our elders in our lives
and then when they pass on, we would like it
would be How meaningful would it be to be able

(28:17):
to have an archival of those stories in their own words?
That was all I could think, was like, I hope
I haven't missed my chance to to get his stories
on audio. That was like the number one thing in
my mind. Never leave home without it. That's what I'm learning.
That's a that's a producer trick, I mean. And and

(28:39):
sometimes I'm like, why am I hauling this stuff around?
I don't use it. It's here, you know, But but
I have a bag that I love that has my
my um my kid in it, and I just make
sure that if I'm going to be someplace where I
don't know what's going on, necessarily um that it's in
the car, you know, I just it's I just take

(29:01):
it with me. Everywhere. But the other thing is, you know, um,
you have a recorder probably you know, in your back
pocket and done, um, done, right, you can capture some
pretty decent audio with a smartphone and um so in

(29:21):
a pinch, you've got something right there that that you
could use. And um, you know, Story Corps has done
a marvelous job of of making it possible, you know,
democratizing the whole notion of of of preserving stories. And
um there there interface for recording is really really good.

(29:47):
But you can get a pretty decent recording if you
have an iPhone with um um Voice Memo. So Voice
Memos is a perfectly good recorder. On this podcast, I
try to What I try to do is sort of
create a kind of audio archive of underrepresented people and

(30:10):
their contributions to technology, to digital culture, to Internet culture specifically,
because I feel those things can be kind of ephemeral.
They can, you know, the Internet changes so quickly and
people forget about what came before, and so, um, I
wanted to chronicle some of this. What would you be
your advice be to make sure that more underrepresented communities

(30:31):
and voices are having their stories included in records and archives.
Um So that we know they existed well, particularly with
UM podcasts. There are a number of people who are
developing UM UM podcast archives and UM seeking those folks

(30:51):
out is important. But also public libraries are are are
undertaking some UH audio preservation. We work with the Green
County Public Library here to UM preserve some of the
digitized material from UM the w Y s O Collection
which UM UH which includes UH oral histories and and

(31:17):
so forth from the civil rights era. So so making
sure that you you know, approach your existing institutions to
be able to UM make sure that they're including your
materials in their collections as as a member of that
community UM, I think is an important important thing to
do UM. And I think that that's something that archivists

(31:42):
as a profession are looking at more of knowing that
they are gatekeepers for cultural materials and knowing historically what
that has meant, which has meant which in which you know,
white supremacy has created barriers too that UM material all
being collected and preserved. So you know, there are many

(32:06):
many archival projects and archives that are I think opening
their collecting um UH. You know, policies to UH to
right wrongs that have been perpetrated in the past. So
I think it's a changing um situation. But but certainly again,

(32:28):
you know, the HBCU community is a place where our
stories are are are important in our are considered, uh
you know, worthy of preservation. And once again I can't
seeing the praises of something like a community based project
UM that I'm doing UM at West State and Stories,

(32:51):
which is working with the African American communities in in
in Dayton, Ohio to collect and preserve stories or um
uh what story Corps can do with community based projects? UM,
they have a whole tutorial that can teach an organization
about how to collect and gather stories and preserve them

(33:13):
through the Story Corps at the Library of Congress or um,
you know, through their own means in the libraries or
what have you, in the in the community. So UM,
you know there's that, But I think part of it
too is there's an understanding, UM you know that that
materials are UM a somewhat ephemeral um themselves. Uh you know, Uh,

(33:36):
magnetic tape deteriorates, uh, color photographs fade um you know,
Uh film uh sticks together and can no longer be
played or even digitized, and the whole digital environment also,
um is not permanent there. You know, if you have
materials that are preserved, so so you think on a

(34:02):
hard drive and that hard drive fails, that material has
gone forever. So you know, digital preservation is as the
whole world unto itself, and um, you know, look for
libraries often will have um, you know, little preservation workshops
for families and individuals and and sometimes there's a lot

(34:26):
to be found there. But then there are some wonderful
websites that have um, you know material uh that people
can um uh read to to figure out how to
preserve their photographs or preserve their old tapes or or
or what have you. And the Library of Congress has
a really good website for that, so you know there's
there's information out there. Um. But it really does help

(34:48):
to talk to somebody who's in the know. And oftentimes
that's you know, somebody you can find at your local library.
I love how oftentimes it always comes back to library
is like we forget what a resource they are. Oh,
they're they're so important, you know, um yeah, they are
community touchstones for sure, and in many communities, and you know,

(35:13):
it's it's really one of those places where where civic
life can can take place UM. And that's their charge,
and that's that's what they're there for. So it's not
just a repository for for books but UM and reading material,
but there's so many other things. In today's libraries are
places where there are maker spaces, and they have podcasting

(35:35):
studios and they do training and podcasting and or audio
or oral history gathering and all of those things. So
you know, they're really great resources for for all of it. Yeah,
I mean, you're a great resource too. You've really created
this model of how institutions can be thinking about preservation
and how all of us can be thinking about preserving
the stories for our own families and our own communities

(35:57):
so the next generation can learn from them and we're gone.
So you know, to that end, what do you hope
that people say about your work a hundred years from now? Well,
I hope that for one thing, that that the HBCUM
materials are are still available and accessible to students and
researchers and UM community members to to to tap into

(36:20):
two to know what life was like UM in some
respects before you know, the Civil rights movement was able
to UM turn a tide of experience for black people
in America and what happened throughout that and and then
beyond and um. You know, if you don't pay attention

(36:43):
to history, you're doomed repeated of course, and and and
that's something that I think we're realizing today that we
are experiencing UM because we haven't paid good, paid good
enough attention. We haven't paid attention well enough to do
what's happened in the past and and and what's been
done in the past, and and you know, that's an

(37:04):
important thing to do. So, you know, a hundred years
from now, I wanted to start with the HBCUs, But
I'm also hoping that that the model that we set
through the projects that UM are about preserving UM radio
material from historically black colleges and universities, it was a

(37:24):
model for for others to follow, and that other marginalized
and um uh, you know, others whose whose voices have
been left out of the American dialogue have have have
a a template to follow so that they two can
can preserve their voices. Our voices and our stories matter.

(37:49):
Preservation isn't just for institutions. We should all be thinking
about preserving the stories and our communities and our families
for future generations to come. Don't let them fade away.
We hope you enjoyed this special celebration of women making
change at HBCUs. We'll be back with more. There Are
No Girls on the Internet. Soon. Got a story about

(38:11):
an interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi,
You can reach us at Hello at tangodi dot com.
You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangodi
dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was
created by me Bridget Tod. It's a production of I
Heart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer.
Terry Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato
is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Tod. If

(38:34):
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