November 5, 2025 • 60 mins
Black women are leaving the workforce and it’s a warning sign for the entire economy. From media to tech, more than 300,000 Black women have left their jobs in the last year. What’s driving this exodus, and what does it reveal about the state of work in America? Bridget speaks with:
Anna Gifty, economist and author of the fascinating new book The Double Tax: How Women of Color Are Overcharged, and Underpaid, and
sociologist Marianne Cooper, Senior Research Scholar at Stanford University's VMware Women's Leadership Innovation Lab,
about the economic pressures, pay gaps, and burnout pushing Black women out and why their exit should concern everyone.
Anna and Marianne’s Time piece: https://time.com/7315624/rising-unemployment-black-women-economy/
Get Anna’s great book! https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/734115/the-double-tax-by-anna-gifty-opoku-agyeman-foreword-by-chelsea-clinton/
If you’re listening on Spotify, you can leave a comment there to let us know what you thought about these stories, or email us at hello@tangoti.com
Follow Bridget and TANGOTI on social media! || instagram.com/bridgetmarieindc/ || tiktok.com/@bridgetmarieindc || youtube.com/@ThereAreNoGirlsOnTheInternet
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Whether or not you think black women are human is
quite literally irrelevant, because at the end of the day,
the economy is still going to take my money.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
There are No Girls on the Internet is a production
of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm bridget Todd, and this
is there are No Girls on the Internet. It has
been a rough time for layoffs across the diversity of sectors.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
We've seen layoffs and media.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Here's what one producer had to say after being laid
off at CBS.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
I just got laid off from my job at CBS,
and every producer on my team who got laid off
is a person of color. Every person who gets to
stay and will be relocated within the company is a
white person.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Teen Vogue wants a bastion of political coverage for young people,
laid off every black woman on their team before merging
with Regular Vogue. Not to mention tech, where layoffs have
overwhelmingly impacted black women who not even that long ago,
were being told by social media that getting a cushy
job in tech was the key to economic stability long term.
(01:16):
So most of us are worried about the economy right now,
but at the same time we're also being told everything
is fine and that the economy is booming, So it
feels like something is an adding up. So maybe it's
time to look at one of the only economic indicators
that actually tells the truth, black women. Because if you
want to know how healthy the economy really.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Is, look at us. We're the canary in the coal mine.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
When things start to crack and layoffs start to hit,
when wages stall, it shows up in.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Our numbers first.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
So when you see a spike in unemployment among black women,
that's not just a statistic, that's a warning shot. And
in twenty twenty five, that warning shot has already been fired.
More than three hundred thousand Black women have left the workforce.
In a piece for Time magazine called rising unemployment among
Black women is a bad sign for the economy, and
(02:10):
A gifty, author of the new book The Double Tax,
and Mary Anne Cooper, senior research scholar at Stanford University's
VMware Women's Leadership Innovation Lab, are sounding the alarm about
black women's economic realities and why all of us should
be paying attention. So I have this sense that we're
not being told the full story when it comes to
the economy. We're being told the economy is great, no problems,
(02:31):
it's booming.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Yet everyone I know is worried. How can we get
to a more complete story.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
It has been a repeated pattern over time that black
women are the Canarian, the coal mine. They're the first
to let us know that there may be something about
to go down in the economy in a negative direction,
and that very often those warning signs are ignored, and
so Anna and I were seeing that play out. But yes,
(03:02):
it can be really difficult to know what's happening, which
is why you go back to historical patterns. And when
we went back and really looked at everything, we saw
that black women right now are.
Speaker 6 (03:13):
It's really it's really troubling.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Even in recent times, I've seeing sort of an uptick
in black women's unemployment or black folks unemployment and then
seeing some sort of economic crisis follow It's been interesting.
I've been following the discourse on econ Twitter, which has
essentially become econ Blue Sky, where you know, Karns are
trying to figure out right, like, you know, are black
(03:35):
folks actually the real canary and the coal mine? Because
they say, you know, it's not in the data. We're
not seeing that, but I would argue it's because the
folks who do ask those types of questions, their analysis
is not really lifted up in the mainstream discourse about
the economy. And so when you kind of asked the
question of you know, are we being told everything?
Speaker 3 (03:57):
I would actually argue.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
That people are providing answers to better understand the economy
as a whole, especially as it relates to marginalized groups.
But some of those answers are quite frankly, not the amplified,
and that's because of who's actually providing those answers in
the first place.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
I feel that.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
That's always tail as old as time. It's not that
nobody is providing this information or doing this work just
about eddiething. You can imagine there is somebody who has
made this their life's work. The problem is that conversation
might not being be amplified, and frankly, it might not
be getting to the people who need to hear it most, right, right,
that's exactly right.
Speaker 5 (04:37):
Yeah, Yeah, And that's another point that Anna and I
have talked about as we're working on this piece, is
you know, historically black women, like with the Great Recession,
you know, we were seeing foreclosure rates go up among
that group in particular, and even kind of in the
two thousand and six to two thousand and eight period,
(04:58):
you know, rising, you know, problems saying bills, all of
those things, but all too often, even the scholars and
the economists at the time who are flagging that it
gets overlooked by the mainstream however you want to define
that mainstream media other things. And what's bad about that,
First of all, it's it's leaving black women in the
(05:20):
eye of economic storm. But it's also means that we
lose the opportunity to intervene more quickly and start to
prevent this widening economic downturn. And so I think that
the pattern, you know, social patterns don't just happen.
Speaker 6 (05:37):
They're not just accidents.
Speaker 5 (05:39):
And I think it's just a larger reflection of how
black women are are ignored and overlooked more broadly in
our society.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Even this discourse that we're having right now is quite frankly,
to me and many other Black.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Women who study these topics, really surprising. Right.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
So, when I saw that the lead story in the
New York Times Times was, you know, featuring the work
of Cottacker Roy around three hundred thousand black women leaving
the labor force.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
This is not something that would have been a headline
even two years ago, right, And.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
So there is sort of this shift now that we're
starting to see around at least black women being seen
as important to the economy, and you know, our position
being acknowledged as something that's meaningful to have this country
moves forward, but also you know how our job market
moves forward, how our labor force moves forward, et cetera.
(06:30):
And I think that that's actually a good thing that
we're starting to have this conversation out in the open.
And I'm really glad that marian and I have been
able to contribute towards that discourse as well. So it's
great that people are talking about this issue more. What
do you think has made people pay more attention to
black women's economic realities and what it means for all
of us. Why are we suddenly seeing headlines about this.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
I think folks are just realizing, wait a minute, that's
a problem.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
I would also say too, that the speed at which
black would have exited the labor force is very concerning
to a lot of people, because at least to me
and Marianna and I have had a conversation about this.
Another way to reframe this discussion is three hundred thousand breadwinners,
three hundred thousand taxpayers. Right, So we're not just talking
(07:18):
about this random minority women group over there that's not
really relevant to our overall economy in our society. We're
talking about people who contribute actual dollars to the GDP
of this country. What I like to say is, you know,
whether or not you think black women are human is
quite literally irrelevant because at the end of the day,
(07:40):
the economy is still gonna take my money, sure will.
So I'm not gonna go ahead and benchmark on your
bigotry because your bigotry ignores reality.
Speaker 6 (07:52):
Yeah, I mean to build on some of those themes.
Speaker 5 (07:55):
I think the other dynamic that's happening is our government
is telling us that these issues are are not important anymore,
and the going after and banning certain words, pulling funding
on certain kinds of studies. I think there is a
societal pushback to that, which is to say, actually, I'm
(08:17):
going to want to know more about those things. So
when you know, when when women and racism and those
kinds of words become targeted by the government and essentially
effectively trying to silence any research or discussion on those things.
That what that can do is say, huh, why why
are they trying to do that and putting more putting
(08:40):
the idea into people's minds that maybe we should know
more about this. So I think there's that that's part
of the story as well.
Speaker 6 (08:47):
And then you know, we were living.
Speaker 5 (08:49):
Through a wild moment historically, I mean the pandemic. We're
not that many years out from the start of it,
and it during that time with the she session and
that black women were hit you know, the heart, one
of the hardest, the groups that experienced, you know, some
of the biggest shocks and unemployment. And so that story
is not that far off the radar either. So I
(09:12):
think there's several different factors that creates the market and interest,
if you will, and all of this, and it's it's
frankly great to see and it is a change.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
And you really spoke to something I think is super important, this.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Idea of well, you can you know, go along with
this administration not not see race and putting that in
heavy scare quotes, not think about things like gender, DEI.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Whatever, whatever you want to say.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
But it's like that Beyonce quote, I always come back
to you when you play me, you play yourself right,
And so if you if you buy into that, you're
just going to end up being in the dark about
what is happening economically in your own household, regardless of
whether or not you're a black woman, regardless of how
you feel about black women personally.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
First of all, we love Beyonce in.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
This household, so thank you so much for or quoting
our good sis.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
I will say too, you know.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
I'm seeing a lot of folks being like you know,
I hate DEI I don't like diversity. I don't like
And the gag of the matter is maybe this country
is becoming diverse, whether you like it or not. Demographically,
we are headed towards a more diverse country, whether you
like it or not.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Gen Z was essentially half.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Minority, half majority right, majority white. Jen Alpha is now
majority minority, and the generation as for that is going
to be substantively majority minority rather than just majority white.
And I think that it's just irresponsible to not be
considering other groups because dealing with their inequalities makes you uncomfortable.
(10:50):
It's irresponsible, right, because at the end of the day.
These are real people, these are real lives. Folks are
trying to make a buck. Folks are trying to make
a life. They're trying to make a living. And so
it's in nobody's best interest if a segment of our
population is not you know, reaping the fruits of their labor,
(11:11):
or are not benefiting from the economy that they're contributing towards. Right,
it builds resentment, but it also, quite frankly, it's kind
of stupid. Right, so people are like, oh, like, I'm
so sorry, I'm trying to be polite.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
I can't. So it's like people are trying to say, like.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Oh, you know, why do we have to care about
those black folks because those black folks make up twelve
percent of your population. Let me put it like this,
if twelve percent of your body wasn't working, do you
think you would be.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Functioning right now? Absolutely?
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Not?
Speaker 3 (11:42):
All right then, and I rest my case.
Speaker 5 (11:45):
Well, and just that we won't have you know, there's
all these these forces that are coming together to shape,
to shape the dynamics that that Anna is laying out,
but that that we won't have enough people. I mean,
we already know that with the lower you know, lower
birth rates and things like that, and so we're going
to need not just that our own population has become
(12:09):
much more diverse, and especially in the younger you know,
now I think we're jen alpha is on the scene,
but we will need immigration.
Speaker 6 (12:17):
There is actually really no way that.
Speaker 5 (12:19):
We'll be able to sustain ourselves, like economically in terms
of innovation and just jobs that need to be filled. So,
you know, dealing with questions around you know, race and
ethnicity and you know, immigrant status and all those things engineerous.
It's not going away, despite people maybe wanting it to
(12:40):
go away.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Both of you have referenced this idea of black women
as these canaries and a coal mine when it comes
to the health of our economy. We have talked about
how black women and the health and well being of
black woman is an indicator, like we talk about it
when we talk about like the health and well being
of the internet. How black women are treated on these
spaces really does say a lot about the overall safety
(13:01):
and health of these spaces. But when it comes to
jobs and the economy, what does it look like in
practice for black women to be these canaries in the
coal mine.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Of the health of the economy.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
So I'm a a ciple of a wonderful framework that's
been coined by Janelle Jones, one of my dearest friends
in the economic space, and.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
It's called Black Women Best.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Black Women Best basically argues that the best outcome for
Black women is a better outcome for everyone else.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
I think the way that Janelle and Angela.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Hanks have put it, along with Kendra Bozarth, is if
the economy is working for Black women, it's more than
likely working for everyone else.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
And I think the.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Way to frame this is, you know, think about a
ven diagram, but each circle represents a different group within
our society. Black women are dead center of the overlapping
circles in our society.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Right, we're working class, we're middle class. Some times we're poor.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
We're highly educated, we have student debt, we're breadwinners for mothers,
we're caregivers. Right, we serve a very important economic role
amongst women.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
In our society. Specifically, black women have the highest labor
force participation rate, meaning that we work, quite frankly, the
hardest within our labor force, within our job market. And so.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
When we think about policies, especially economic policies, dealing with
sort of the job market, the labor force as it
pertains to black women. Black women are really telling you.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
About a lot of people's different experiences.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
In one fell swoop, right, Because if we are a
dead center experience for our current society, especially amongst those
who are most marginalized and who face inequality, then what's
happening to us is probably giving you insight to what's
happening to the white guy who's also struggling with the
job market, or what's happening to the Latina mother who's
also trying to make end meet. And so it's important
(15:02):
to pay attention to what's taking place with us as
canaries and the coal mine, so to speak, because of
these overlapping experiences that we encompass in our own lived
experience and in our own identity. But I would also
say too that the Black Women Best framework really argues
that black women.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Are the tie that lifts all boats. And so in
the book that I wrote, The Double Tax, I basically
say that what black women are currently experiencing right now
is the double tax, this compounded cost of racism and sexism, which,
like I said before, overlaps with all these other experiences
that people are dealing with.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
But what I say is that if you don't address
these individual costs that these black women women of color
are dealing with day to day, they become societal.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Costs down the line.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
And another way I would visualize this is what happens
to black women first in terms of the Canary and
the coal mine, is almost like your neighbor's house catching
on fire down the street. You see it's three houses down,
You see the smoke, you smell the flames, and you
saying I'm not going to pay attention. Is like you
going back into the house and being like, I'm gonna
go ahead and watch another episode of Love Island. That's crazy,
(16:15):
you know, yes, Because at the end of the day,
if that fire catches the next house next to you,
guess who's house is about to go up to flames.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
It's about to be your house.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
So and it's your best interest to assure that the
whole neighborhood doesn't catch on fire because that house was
on fire.
Speaker 7 (16:34):
Let's take a quick break at our back.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Okay, So we've been using that phrase canary in the
coal mine when we talk about how harms often impact
black women before they go unchecked and harm everyone oh
so much beyond that, because it's not just that everyone
should care about what happens to black women economically, because
if we're struggling, everyone else is about to be struggling too.
It's also that we are real people with real lives
(17:12):
and real families and real stories who are also a
really big part of our economy. There is no economy
without black women.
Speaker 5 (17:20):
Black workers aren't important demographic just like every other demographic,
because they're people in our society. And so it's it's
whether or not they're the Canarian the coal mine, and
it's sort of and people actually reached out to me
after the piece saying, you know, it's just it's not
only because they're the Canarian the coal mine that we
(17:41):
need to care, right So it's it's Danna's point that
we need to make sure that everyone's able to contribute
in the economy in ways that are you know, secure
and with dignified work and all of those things, but
the other ways that they this group, historically marginalized groups
(18:01):
often are the first to be hit. Black women being
you know, in recession after recession, really like the they're
the first hit and the hardest hit and that's the
other thing is we can look at, Okay, who's whose
unemployment rates are going up, how quickly are they going up,
how long are they unemployed, like how hard is it
to find another job? And it does provide like a
(18:24):
window into likely what's about to happen to other groups
as this kind of the economic squeeze spreads across across
the larger economy. But the other thing I'd say I
was thinking about this morning is.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Worry.
Speaker 6 (18:39):
And I think worry is an.
Speaker 5 (18:41):
Interesting way of seeing into an economy where you know,
it's dynamic, it's hard to exactly know what's around the corner.
But the survey that we found that showed that we
write about in the article that showed, like, I mean what,
I was pretty shocked by the statistic, which is that
the there's been a massive increase in the percentage of
(19:02):
Black women who are saying that they're worried about or
have said that economic conditions have worsened over the last year.
So in twenty twenty four it was forty percent. It
jumped to eighty seven percent in twenty twenty five, Right,
So that's massive more Black women are worried right now
about routine and rising bills than at the you know,
(19:22):
than at the early part of the pandemic. So to me,
I think, you know, this is a group that you know,
it's kind of like here we go again. And I
feel like groups that have experienced this, they're they're faster
to see what's happening because it's hitting them and more
of more people in their community. They're connecting the dots
and they're seeing things and so as as sort of
an arbiter around like what is happening and how bad
(19:44):
could it be? Like this is the group that I
think has seized things the clearest. So the worry was
also made me made me pause. I think that they're
seeing it exactly as it is.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
The last time we saw an up in black women's
worry was right at the very beginning of the COVID
nineteen pandemic. So you're saying that black women like me
have not been this worried since the early days of
the pandemic back in twenty twenty.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
That seems bad to me.
Speaker 5 (20:15):
We were working on this post for a while and
I was at a conference, and I was in a
hotel room, and I was like looking at all this
stuff and I it was just like whoa, I just
I like remember the moment that that kind of connected
in my brain.
Speaker 6 (20:27):
I was like, oh, yeah, no, this is uh you know.
Speaker 5 (20:30):
I mean it's always hard to know again because things
change and the economy is so it could be fast moving.
But I think that this group is telling us something
that's really important and we need to pay attention to
it because they're almost always right.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Right at the very beginning of COVID, I remember seeing
black women's unemployment shoot to seventeen percent. I think it
was sixteen point eight percent according to Economic Policy Institute.
And you know, we also saw that the recovery the
two thousand and eight financial crisis was way slower than
the people were expecting, right, and so black women were
quite frankly, the last group to recover from that crisis.
(21:10):
And that again speaks to the experiences of other people
who have overlapping experiences with black women that we're also
suffering hosts two thousand and eight. And so, you know,
I think a Mariam kind of hit the nail on
the head. It's not just that, you know, black women
are kind of a warning signal for what's happening with
our economy.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
And beyond.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
But it's also that this is a part of our economy, right,
So if a part of our economy is on fire,
we need to put that fire out.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
And that means that we.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Need to pay attention to those worries that they're expressing,
and that we also need to ensure that the policy
solutions that are on the table are essentially accounting for that.
We've seen you know, Congresswoman Eleana Presley really call for
that by specifically addressing the Federal Reserve Board.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Share Jerome Powell.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
And I think that we need more congressional leaders, local leaders,
and stay wide leaders to do the same.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
I'm so glad you brought up that point that it's
not just about you know, job numbers. It's also the
important piece that black women are often the first to
get hit with a crisis and then the last to
experience that the recovery from that crisis.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
What does that look like and what has the impact?
Speaker 7 (22:20):
Ben?
Speaker 5 (22:21):
Well, it doesn't look good, right, I mean, it's it's
it's it's really concerning.
Speaker 8 (22:26):
I mean the other thing, as you know, as doing
the kind of work on this piece, was just you know,
the point that black women were still losing jobs when
they're great, recession was declared over, Like, how do you
declare a recession over when people are still losing their
jobs in sizable numbers?
Speaker 6 (22:46):
So yeah, and I think what it.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Does is it.
Speaker 6 (22:51):
That it it shows how hard.
Speaker 5 (22:55):
That this this group in particular gets hit, but then
how little is done to actually kind of support the
group that is struggling the most. And why is that?
And then and then what the concern is over time
is that certain groups are less left worse off and
(23:16):
worse off and worse off, creating, you know, this kind
of effect that makes it even harder for for black
women to to get back to the other point about
black women best, Like my understanding is that you know,
we were barely back to a point for black women
where their their employment was had returned to where it
was pre pandemic.
Speaker 6 (23:35):
Right, So now it's like this kind.
Speaker 5 (23:37):
Of churning happening, and it's very difficult for people to
kind of get security, have any social mobility. And again
that has implications not just for those groups, but for
our economy overall.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Black women hold a very important economic position in their
communities and in.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Society at large.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
So we know that quite a few mothers are breadwinners
in their house. So I don't know the number exactly,
but black mothers, I believe sixty nine percent of them
are the breadwinners of their household.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
So just let's think about that for a second. They
have people relying on.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Them, kids, grandparents, relatives, sometimes family friends.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
And so if you're losing income.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Because you're dealing with cuts to the federal workforce, cuts
to industries where you're discoforcedly represented, it's not just hurting
your pocketbook, it's hurting the economic future of your household.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
And I think we need to.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Really contextualize what role black women, especially black mothers, are
playing in their communities.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
They're upholding their community.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
They're strengthening their communities through their dollars, through what they're
able to invest in with their dollars. And so what
happens when those dollars disappear. Entire communities are impacted. It's
so interesting. I had an event yesterday in DC and
(25:20):
so and I'd asked a question about, you know.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
How are black men affected by what's happening to black women? Well,
black men.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Black men are in community with black women, and oftentimes
black men are being supported in some way by black women.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
And so if black women lose, black men also lose.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Black children also lose, but also black men, black women,
all these different communities are in different places across our country.
They're not just right in a black neighborhood. They can
be in white neighborhood, they can be in mixed race neighborhoods.
They're in different class levels. So we're not talking just
(26:02):
about you know, this single are group and this vacuum
and this silo. We're talking about twelve percent, seven percent
in some kits for black women of the population. What
happens when seven percent of the population can't meaningfully contribute
to our economy. The answer is simple, our economy shrinks
and those communities suffer.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
I mean, there's simply no way forward without black women politically, economically, socially,
family wise, community wise, We just we just we don't
get to where we're going without including us clocket exactly.
Speaker 7 (26:38):
Not sorry.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
More, after a quick break, let's get right back into it.
I was raised by an incredibly high at black women,
and honestly, it was a little intimidating. I always heard
(27:06):
people call my mom a superwoman because she never seemed
to drop a ball. She did everything and did it flawlessly.
But what I never really saw as a kid was
the cost of all that. Mom never got to rest,
she never got to stumble, she never got to just be. Yes,
black women are extraordinary, but we're not superheroes. I mean
(27:26):
shouldn't have to be. We shouldn't have to do it
all and prove our strength every single day just to survive,
because no matter how determined or brilliant you are, you
can't fix a broken system by yourself, and you can't
truly thrive inside one either. I wanted to get more
into this because you know, I'm a black woman.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
I was raised by a black mom.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
I do think there is a cultural attitude that, oh,
we'll figure it out. Black women will always figure it out. Well,
we'll do what needs to be done. But you can
only do so much when you were up against these
horses that are very clearly systemic and institutional.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Right, you can't. You can't.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Like black women are, we are strong, we are talented,
all of that, but like we can genuinely only do
so much up against forces like this that are so
ingrained and so systemic.
Speaker 5 (28:16):
Yes, you can't individual your way out of you know,
systemic inequalities.
Speaker 6 (28:23):
I think it is a important.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
Like and and I think a lot of groups have
these like cultural narratives of how to cope with really
terrible stuff and really terrible times, and it is it
does I think foster resilience and hope and those things
are important. But it is not the answer to you know,
inadequate policy. It is not the answer to you know,
(28:50):
the double tax, for example, of the you know, the
compounding nature racism and sexism, and so I think, you know,
for a long time now, for for so long, there's
been calls for policies to address the real obstacles to
you know, Black women employment or mobility or opportunity, and
(29:11):
it just, you know, it's we have eras where it
feels like there's a lot of progress and then you know,
as soon as as some the things start to shift,
I feel like it comes back down hard again. And
that is again reflective of how black women are in
the eye of the economic storm because they are so
(29:33):
so marginalized.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
I love what Marianne said there, you can't individual your
way through sort of these economic crises and inequality.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
We're large, and that's also that's always been true. Actually,
I feel right like just across time, movements of people,
lots of people have pushed the thing, you know, pushed
our society forward. And I feel like, you know, if
I had to get like a very practical piece of
advice to people who are listening, especially black women, if
(30:06):
you have a union in your workplace, I need you
to join it, like yesterday, okay, so please join your union.
You can join your union as a grad student. I
know we love school. So if you want to, if
you want to go back to grad school, right, make
sure you join your grad school union. It's extremely important
that you're protected because what Marianne is saying is so true,
(30:28):
and also what you're saying too is speaking to you know,
our our shared lives experience.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
But the reality is, like the labor market, the job
market more specifically fundamentally undervalues women's work, and even more
so undervalues Black women's work despite all of the sacrifices,
all of the hours, all of the effort that we
put through right or put put forth. And so it
(30:56):
is sometimes up to us collect actively to fight for
each other because you know, I hate to say like this,
but no one's coming to save us. They never have, right.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Oftentimes when we throw ourselves a lifeline, we actually end
up saving everybody else. And that's all to say that.
You know, of course other people need to be involved
in the process of making sure that marginalized groups like
black women are not falling behind.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
But can I be honest with you, I don't really
trust people. I don't. I'm so sorry at Marianna's is right.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
So my dissertation for the sake of the current climate
is talent development and acquisition. But what I really study
for those listening to make it really really hard for
your boss to be racist, to be a right. That's
what I do, and the way I do it is,
you know, I go by this saying, if you want
to be a biggot in your bathtub, be my guest.
(31:57):
If you want to bathe in the bubbles of bigger tree,
have a great time.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Okay, the moment you step outside, I'm gonna be right
there holding you accountable every time. Every time you open
your door, there's gonna be anna come out. So you're
gonna be a bigger today. Not on my watch, Not
on my watch. Take it back to the bathtub. Take
it back to the bath exactly right. Take it back
to the bathtub.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
And so I think the way this is all to
say we underestimate the power of accountability, especially as a collective.
And this is not like cancel culture, but it is
to say that as researchers, Marian and I are researchers,
as people who are just who have platforms like yourself,
(32:43):
as folks who are just on the Internet and just
walking around, we have the power to say no, actually
we don't like that, you know. And we sew this
kind of unfold across the world. In South Korea when
that God was trying to take over it, they said, nah,
Now they just happen to have a population that knows
(33:04):
how to fight, right.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
But that being said, they said no, we're not standing
for this, and.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
They literally took to the streets. And I think that
we have that same spirit within us. And so if
you don't think that the world should be unfair, unjust
and unequal, you lock arms with somebody who believes the
same thing and you fight together.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
That's how you move things forward.
Speaker 6 (33:30):
It's hard to put into words where we are right now.
It's very scary.
Speaker 5 (33:36):
It's we've had, you know, times in the past that
are seeming like they should have stayed in the past
that it just feels like, you know, a new fascist era.
Speaker 6 (33:47):
But every day, like I keep thinking to.
Speaker 5 (33:49):
Myself, all we have is each other, right, right, That's
really all we have because if the laws are changed
or they're not, you know, they're not in four or
you know. Anyway, I just think all we have is
each other. And and it's you know, collective action is
so powerful, and that's really how to the degree we've
(34:11):
been able to save ourselves. That's what that's been is
collective action social movements. And I think it, you know,
at a granular level, like what this looks like is
you know when people lose their jobs either because of
the economic forces or because they're targeted, or you know,
they posted something and you know.
Speaker 6 (34:32):
They're they're fire for it.
Speaker 5 (34:34):
Like I think it's it's being much more intentional about
how you are going to have other people's backs.
Speaker 6 (34:42):
What does that look like? You know, that sort of
mutual aid approach. But I just it's you.
Speaker 5 (34:50):
Know, we always have had moments of this, but this
is on a scale that is at least in my lifetime,
I haven't experienced it. So anyway, I just think we
have to be there for each other. And that's you know,
what does that mean that? I think it means like,
if you have a job to give someone, give it.
(35:11):
If you can give money, give it. If you can
be a source of support for someone, give it. But
it's you know, and this is going to be a
multi year so hopefully only a few Yes, we're allowing.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Me to keep from crying. Yeah, that's right, don't I
know it? That's right.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
I want to double click on that idea because so
I live in Washington, d C. And one of the
big things here, as you both probably know, is the
just the massive scale of layoffs, so, you know, layoff
some government. I think that good stable government jobs have
been the backbone of economic stability, at least where I
live here in DC the mid Atlantic region. And we
(35:54):
saw a lot of black women, kind of career civil
servants or like long time government workers really being pushed
out of these jobs. And I cannot help but get
the idea that there was this sense that oh, well,
those black women didn't really deserve those jobs, or they
weren't unqualified, or they were just taking a white man spot.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
Is this And I just feel that.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
The way that that is talked about is with such
disregard and it almost it almost is like it's it's
like a sneeringness about these women who really have been
doing so much to keep our government running, doing sort
of thankless, probably unglamorous work.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
Is this something that you all have seen?
Speaker 7 (36:35):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (36:35):
So you know what I.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Love about the double tax is that it really validates
black women's experiences and women of color more broadly, because
I think a lot of.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
People will play in our face and say, you know,
like you you're not.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Really qualified for this, right, or oh, you know that
personally got in because they're a DEI high or whatever.
But we know from the data, right, is that black
women experience the highest and over the lowest promotion rates
and are more likely than any other group to be
labeled as low performers in the workplace. This is worked
by Elizabeth Lino, son As Mabasri and Nino Russe. We
(37:12):
know this, This is the data that's speaking. We also
know that when it comes to promotions, this is the
work of Marion Cooper and the Women in the Workplace Report.
I love citing this work in the book that for
every one hundred men who were promoted in the workplace
in twenty twenty four. On average, eighty one women were
(37:33):
promoted Black women.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
It was fifty four, the lowest promotion rate amongst all
women groups. And so, you know, it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
I look at these stats and then I look at
the Black women that I know, and I think about
the ones that dot their eyes and cross.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
Their teeth, which is mainly most of us. Quite frankly, yes, right,
because this is the reality. There's very little room for error,
very little room for error.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
I know a little something about feeling like there's very
little room for error because black women, especially black women
in positions of power, are not really allowed to make
any kinds of mistakes on the job.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
So we have to cross our lives and dot RTAs.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
It's just the reality of being black women in the workplace,
because we know that it comes with already made attack
that you're only there in the first place because you're
a DEI higher. And we also know that it won't
take much for us to be on the chopping block.
Wants an example of a super qualified black woman being
mischaracterized as unqualified, just look at Lisa Cook.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
So currently, what's happening in the news is you have
very prominent black women being attacked by the administration in
a number of different areas, but let me maybe talk
about the one that I know the most. So, Governor
Lisa Cook is a name that is now a household name.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
I love that for her. I hate the reason why
it's a household name for right now, but you know,
her work is very brilliant.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
So Governor Lisa Cook is an economist, a macro economist,
one of the best I would argue in the profession.
And she currently occupies a role in the Federal Reserve
Board of Governors.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
For those who are like, I don't know.
Speaker 7 (39:19):
What that is.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
Does that affect me? Yes, it does affect you.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
And what that is essentially is the group of economists
that manage the group of economists that manage the economy. Right,
So these individuals ultimately make the call on interest rates,
which I know folks have heard about, because if you're
going to get a loan to buy a house, you're
looking at interest rates, if you're gonna think about, you know, inflation,
(39:44):
you're thinking about the grocery prices at your local grocery store.
And so these are the individuals who are making those
really important decisions that reverberate not just through our economy, but.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
Through the global economy.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Right, So it's not that what's happening here is just
happening here.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
It's actual relevant for the UK.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
It's relevant for what's happening in Ghana, right because everybody
is looking to the US about how our dollar is
going to be affected essentially by the decisions.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
That the FED makes. So what's happening right.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Now is this woman is being attacked, This black woman's
being attacked, and a lot of people are saying, you know,
she was unqualified, unqualified for a position that the President
of the United States appointed her for. Let's just state
that fact, right, the President Biden appointed her to this position.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
Let me tell you something about doctor Cook, probably the
most qualified person to ever serve on the FED. Ever.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
I'm not even kidding this woman. I'm rattle off and
then I'm gonna make my larger point. Went to Oxford,
went to UC Berkeley, went to Spelman, made history as
their first Marshall scholar. Worked the White House, worked at
the Treasury, worked on the helpful of economic advisors, was
appointed to a presidential transition team to lead the.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
Very group she's now a part of. Right, She's worked
at four out of the twelve federal Reserve banks, not
including her current position, which would make it five. So
she's worked at at.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
Least a third of the regional banks that contribute to
managing our economy. She has advised people in Asia, in Africa,
I'm looking at the phone with shock.
Speaker 3 (41:30):
Good guys, I'm confused. I'm looking for the lack of qualifications.
I can't find anywhere. Here's my point. My point is
black women. People look at us.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
They see our skin, they see our hair, they see
our brilliance, and they have to trick themselves into saying
there's no way that person can be all those things
at once. A lot of these people who are saying,
you know, black women are not qualified, what they're really
saying is diversity is at odds of merit. There is
no way that something can be meritocratic and you can
(42:03):
also be black. There's no way. But what the data
suggests is very clear. The folks who get a.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
Leg up.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
If we'resbility, it's not us we actually get a let down.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
We get a leg down. Y'all don't hire us because
we're black, but we still show up to the workplace anyway.
Y'all don't admit us because we're black. But forty three
percent of the white students at Harvard in twenty nineteen
were admitted off of nothing related to merit. They were
either related to family members who donated, they were either
children of staff or faculty, or they were athletes, which
(42:42):
we know from past scandals that that's another way to
get certain people into the door. This is how to
say that even though the stack is built like a
wall against us, nobody can take away the fact that
we are object stively qualified. And that has always been true.
(43:03):
I'll hear preaching a sermon.
Speaker 6 (43:06):
Yeah, I mean it's true.
Speaker 5 (43:08):
It is always interesting to notice when the the meritocracy
narrative is.
Speaker 6 (43:15):
You know, unleashed, and when and then when it's not. Uh,
And it.
Speaker 5 (43:22):
My own kind of the thing I often think about
when when this topic comes up, is that with the
Women in.
Speaker 6 (43:29):
The Workplace report stuff.
Speaker 5 (43:30):
So this is a collaboration between Mackenzie and leanin dot
org and we just had our tenth for part last
year and it's you know, each year there's tens of
thousands of employees. You do the survey and we have
a lot of data and so it's great. It's a
it's a it's so much data that we really can
see some very interesting patterns. What I have noticed over
time is that we, you know, periodically have this question like,
(43:53):
you know, do you want to be a top executive
or you know, senior leader or whatever. And what I've
noticed from an aspirations stam point is that black women
have higher aspirations to senior leadership than white women, and
black women's aspirations are similar to those of white men.
But when you look at the pipeline, so you look
at from entry level all the way up to the
(44:13):
c suite, what we see is white men are are
the group that becomes over represented over time. So they
start out, you know, at entry level they're like something
like a third of employees. To buy the c suite,
they're they're over half and so and then so for
black women it's sort of it's it's they they start
out and then they're they're underrepresented at each each step
(44:36):
up in that in that pipeline. And so my larger
point is like we either there's sort of two ways
to look at that, and in terms of understanding it,
you can either think that white men are smarter and
work harder than everybody else or something else is going on,
and we have now, you know, many decades of social
(44:58):
science research showing us that they're something else that's going on.
And these are the biases that are in all these
different kinds of people processes, from hiring to performance evaluation
to other things.
Speaker 6 (45:12):
But the idea that black women are.
Speaker 5 (45:16):
Not as competent as other groups of people is to
what animal speaking about. There is no room for error
because you have this higher bar and people are watching you.
And so the women that do get through, and particularly
the women of color that do rise up through an
organization or a field or whatever, they're usually better than everybody.
Speaker 6 (45:37):
Else because they have to be glock clock.
Speaker 5 (45:40):
So it's an interesting phenomenon that we can still, though,
have such a strong narrative that somehow all of these
people in quotes, which usually is code for, you know,
folks of color, particularly women of color, somehow are holding
positions in which they are not qualified for, have not
worked hard for, and just do not deserve. The data
(46:03):
shows the opposite, I think, which is also why there
are attempts to stop collecting the data. If you want
to hide or ignore social problem, you just stop collecting
the data. I mean, you could also manipulate the data,
which I'm also worried about.
Speaker 6 (46:18):
But in any.
Speaker 5 (46:19):
Case, this is the idea that somehow on the black
women holding jobs in federal government were they're because they
didn't deserve to be is just untrue. But they again
because of those massive job cuts to the federal government,
because black women held a higher percentage of jobs there,
(46:40):
that they got hit really hard in that. And we'll
be still as that continues.
Speaker 4 (46:49):
More.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
After a quick break, let's get right back into it.
If you encounter a black woman in a high up
leadership position, nobody gives us anything. So just just know
(47:10):
that she not only clearly deserves that position, probably frankly
deserves to be higher. Like nobody is more qualified than
a black woman in a leadership position because of how
how good we have to be to be let in
the door at all. Do you think they would do
like this idea that black women are being given positions
they don't deserve but are not qualified for.
Speaker 3 (47:30):
It's just it's.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
Almost funny to me, as someone who's in the working
world for most of my life.
Speaker 5 (47:36):
Yeah, it's it's well, you know, it's sort of like
that bitter It's like funny, not funny, it's like, it's
just it it blows one's mind, right, because and the
way that so many people actually still hold that belief is, uh,
it's yeah, it's just it's it's a lot.
Speaker 6 (47:56):
But that's how I feel.
Speaker 5 (47:57):
I mean, that's the whole thing about demon in the
start of themistration DEI and uh, you know, the pilots
and stuff like that, and I'm like, no, it's like
anytime you're looking at a pilot, surgeons, whatever that you know,
again because of the higher bar, because of the racism
and sexism, because you've been continually discounted, you know, mistreated
(48:19):
all those things. The people who make it to the
top in those roles, who are members of these historically
marginalized groups, they are by definition the best of the best.
So I'm actually always happy when my pilots are DEI folks.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
Yes, And I wanted to ask you about this because
I know the book The Double Tacks. What I love
about it is that it's you're not just sort of
laying out the facts and the figures of the situation,
it's also conversations and stories.
Speaker 3 (48:49):
What have women that you talked to for the book
told you the.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
Women I've spoken to, well, only be honest, like, uh,
I spoke to some women. We had a team of
women who spoke to women, so you know who we
spoke to. They conferred everything that we're talking about right now, right,
And I think that's kind of why I have to
bring the dat up, because it's not like we haven't
been having this conversation. This conversation has been long had
(49:14):
for so many years. And I think, you know, when
it comes to black women who are just trying to
make it to.
Speaker 3 (49:22):
The top, who The title of this chapter is called
the Broken Wrung, which is inspired by the Women in
the Workplace Report. What I argue is that, you know,
women in general are climbing a ladder with rungs that
are more further spaced apart, but for women of color,
especially Black women, those rungs are broken. What do I
(49:45):
mean by that? I mean, as we climb to.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
The top, it costs us something. It always seems to
cost us something. I can be very practical here and
say it might cost us our hair texture. You might
not be able to ruck as many braids, which is
why I think, like deshanda duckett is so important form
of representation, right now she rocks braids in her fortune
five hundred speaking circuits, right, which I think is very
(50:09):
very important. But I think there's a lot of nuances
that I want to introduce here if we're really getting
into it. We spoke to black women about you know,
what do you what are the challenges that you deal
with in the workplace. Maryam might not be surprised by this,
but some people listening might be.
Speaker 3 (50:28):
You know what they said, They said white women. Now
we're laughing because we know that's he But I think.
Speaker 1 (50:39):
It's important to bring this into the forefront because I
think that, you know, we've been talking a lot about
comparing black women to white men and how white women
are absolutely overrepresented in the highest paid professions by far.
The data supports this. This is data from the Center
from American Progress. I believe they make up at least
(51:01):
of every single one of the top ten hives paid
professions as of twenty nineteen.
Speaker 3 (51:07):
But when we kind of dig into.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
The actual workplace experience, a lot of times women are
interacting with women and this is where the double tax
can also arise. Where I say in the book, white
women are navigating the patriarchy at work right you're still
dealing with sexism, you're still dealing with gender inequality. This
is why we need sort of the fortifying ergs, if
(51:31):
you will, the employee resource groups to assist as we're
moving through the moving through the workplace.
Speaker 3 (51:37):
But black women will. Black women deal with the patriarchy too,
and they also deal with white women. And what I
mean by this.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
Is that there are some white women in the workplace,
according to black women that we spoke to that shared that,
you know, when they're just trying to do their job,
their question right, So they're getting the question of competence
from white men, and they're also getting the question.
Speaker 3 (52:08):
Of competence from white women.
Speaker 1 (52:11):
And what's interesting is that study I cited a while
back with Elizabeth Lino's and co authors.
Speaker 3 (52:17):
What they found was.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
If there's a higher share of white women on your team,
as a black woman, you're more likely to lead the
organization in addition to white men.
Speaker 3 (52:28):
So it's not just that white men.
Speaker 1 (52:29):
Are driving a turnover of Black women in the workplace,
it's also white women.
Speaker 3 (52:35):
And that's what our stories corroborated.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
And I think this kind of puts us in a
little bit of an awkward spot, right because a lot
of times when we're having these conversations about women.
Speaker 3 (52:43):
In the workplace, we don't really talk about race. Have
you noticed. I have noticed.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
I've noticed we don't talk about race. And it's interesting
because it's interesting derogatory. Let me start there and say that, like,
we're missing worries that are really important because what's happening
to the black women in the workplace at some point
will filter through to the white women, because who becomes
(53:10):
expendable is relative.
Speaker 3 (53:12):
You get rid of all the black.
Speaker 1 (53:13):
Women, it's just going to be the next group that
whoever is empowered things is expendable, and oftentimes that is
white women.
Speaker 3 (53:20):
And so I think that it's incumbent on us to
have very honest conversations about the difference in experiences that
we have as women. One of the big reasons why
I love this book, why Mary Anne, by the way,
was one of the experts on the chapter that I'm
talking about, so this is all not new to her, right,
(53:42):
is because it really forces us to reckon with whether
or not being a woman is a monolithic experience. And
what this book basically says in bold print and into
a megaphone is absolutely not the same experience across the board,
and we need to have a lot more conversations about why.
Speaker 5 (54:05):
There is no single story of women and we lose
a lot by trying to just say that there's you know,
womenness and women that it's like there are vast inequalities
among women themselves, obviously by race and ethnicity, but also
by social class and also by age. I think is
another one that has not talked about enough, and so
(54:29):
just yes, we need to have a more I think
there's so much variation we need to have that be
part of the conversation rather than thinking that there's just
like one one experience because it's just it's it just overlooks,
it ignores a lot of different stories that are unfolding
and obscures I think the stories that are most important
(54:51):
to tell.
Speaker 2 (54:52):
And it just speaks to the way that black women
our experiences can really get lost in it if we're
not having these intersectional conversations about what's going on that
really highlight like what it is that we're dealing with,
what it is that we're up against, and how those.
Speaker 3 (55:06):
Are all playing out.
Speaker 2 (55:08):
When you're saying, yeah, so the piece kind of ends
with you all saying that you know these early warning
signs are only useful if listened to. Let's not miss
the one black women are sounding yet again, So what
does it look like.
Speaker 3 (55:22):
To actually hear and respond to this warning that you
all are pointing out? I mean, I think one thing
that a.
Speaker 1 (55:28):
Lot of black women or commas have said is like,
we need to first and foremost even know that the
warning exists.
Speaker 3 (55:35):
And that begins with this aggregating the data. So I
think local and state leaders who.
Speaker 1 (55:39):
Have access to data about the labor market, who are
paying attention to the Bureau Labor statistics, dig into how
different groups are being impacted by these job cuts, by
what's happening with sort of these slashes to industries that
are disproportionately affecting Black women. I think it also means
(56:00):
really thinking about why it matters that black women in
particular stand to lose the most at this time. Black
women are breadwears, right, their moms. They're individuals who are
just trying to make a living and make a life.
As I said before, and I think using black women
as a benchmark for your policy making is extremely helpful
(56:24):
because it says, Okay, black moms are under pressure, right now,
let's go ahead and design a program locally or statewide
to ensure that we can support moms that might be
in similar positions, right or black young folks can't find
jobs right now, Let's see if we can as a
university maybe extend the career services beyond just you know,
(56:49):
you know, folks who are current students, and maybe have
a more robust programming to ensure that our alumni can
transition smoothly into the job market. So it's saying you
see that certain groups are setting up a smoke signal,
and I would even say they're running in the opposite
direction of something that is headed their way. And you
have a choice, Iiva, you can run alongside. This is
(57:11):
a running joke, right, because every time you see a
black person run, you're supposed to run two. That's usually
the game, is right, but you see a black person running,
you see a black woman running the other direction, and
instead of being like, oh, she's a fool for running,
the sun is out, things are great, and you decide
I'm gonna pull out my picnic planket and read my book,
(57:33):
you should ask her why are you running?
Speaker 3 (57:35):
What are you running from? Right?
Speaker 1 (57:37):
Because oftentimes she has a fantash point that you can't
comprehend or maybe you don't have the perspective to see.
And in this case, going with this metaphor, she's running
from a tsunami that's coming her way, and so she's
gonna try her best to get to safety. But one
thing you gotta know, this is the double tax come
on metaphor, is that she has got an anchor on
(57:58):
her ankle, right, something weight on our ankle, so she
can't run fast enough away from me. But if you
who has not that way, not that pressure, not having
to do with racism and sexism at that level, are.
Speaker 3 (58:11):
Also heating the warning.
Speaker 1 (58:13):
You can go into town and tell everybody else, hey,
we got to prepare to this, and da da da da,
And so by the time she gets there, she's not
swept up in the storm.
Speaker 3 (58:21):
So I think that's the way I would say, we
need this moment.
Speaker 1 (58:26):
We don't ignore you know, what's taking place, and we
don't stop at just saying, man, they're a warning signal,
and then we don't heat it. There's no use in
hearing the alarm and not acting on the emergency. If
there's an emergency, we need to do something about it.
Otherwise we all stand to lose much more.
Speaker 5 (58:45):
Yeah, I think that that sums it all up. And
if we ignore this, I think it will will be
back on our heels pretty quickly here. And if we
get in front of it by action listening to black women,
we could prevent a lot of pain for everybody, but
(59:07):
particularly for black women.
Speaker 6 (59:09):
So it's just.
Speaker 5 (59:12):
Too many times Black women's experiences in the economy but
otherwise have been ignored and it leaves you know, almost
everyone worse off as a result.
Speaker 2 (59:27):
Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, I
just want to say Hi. You can reach us at
Hello at tegodi dot com. You can also find transcripts
for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No
Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Todd.
It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative Jonathan Strickland
as our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and
sound engineer. Michael Almato is our contributing producer. I'm your host,
(59:48):
bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate
and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
check out the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts.
Speaker 3 (59:57):
Or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 7 (01:00:00):
The manhat rum with a long
Whether or not you think black women are human is
quite literally irrelevant, because at the end of the day,
the economy is still going to take my money.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
There are No Girls on the Internet is a production
of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm bridget Todd, and this
is there are No Girls on the Internet. It has
been a rough time for layoffs across the diversity of sectors.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
We've seen layoffs and media.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Here's what one producer had to say after being laid
off at CBS.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
I just got laid off from my job at CBS,
and every producer on my team who got laid off
is a person of color. Every person who gets to
stay and will be relocated within the company is a
white person.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Teen Vogue wants a bastion of political coverage for young people,
laid off every black woman on their team before merging
with Regular Vogue. Not to mention tech, where layoffs have
overwhelmingly impacted black women who not even that long ago,
were being told by social media that getting a cushy
job in tech was the key to economic stability long term.
(01:16):
So most of us are worried about the economy right now,
but at the same time we're also being told everything
is fine and that the economy is booming, So it
feels like something is an adding up. So maybe it's
time to look at one of the only economic indicators
that actually tells the truth, black women. Because if you
want to know how healthy the economy really.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Is, look at us. We're the canary in the coal mine.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
When things start to crack and layoffs start to hit,
when wages stall, it shows up in.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Our numbers first.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
So when you see a spike in unemployment among black women,
that's not just a statistic, that's a warning shot. And
in twenty twenty five, that warning shot has already been fired.
More than three hundred thousand Black women have left the workforce.
In a piece for Time magazine called rising unemployment among
Black women is a bad sign for the economy, and
(02:10):
A gifty, author of the new book The Double Tax,
and Mary Anne Cooper, senior research scholar at Stanford University's
VMware Women's Leadership Innovation Lab, are sounding the alarm about
black women's economic realities and why all of us should
be paying attention. So I have this sense that we're
not being told the full story when it comes to
the economy. We're being told the economy is great, no problems,
(02:31):
it's booming.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Yet everyone I know is worried. How can we get
to a more complete story.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
It has been a repeated pattern over time that black
women are the Canarian, the coal mine. They're the first
to let us know that there may be something about
to go down in the economy in a negative direction,
and that very often those warning signs are ignored, and
so Anna and I were seeing that play out. But yes,
(03:02):
it can be really difficult to know what's happening, which
is why you go back to historical patterns. And when
we went back and really looked at everything, we saw
that black women right now are.
Speaker 6 (03:13):
It's really it's really troubling.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Even in recent times, I've seeing sort of an uptick
in black women's unemployment or black folks unemployment and then
seeing some sort of economic crisis follow It's been interesting.
I've been following the discourse on econ Twitter, which has
essentially become econ Blue Sky, where you know, Karns are
trying to figure out right, like, you know, are black
(03:35):
folks actually the real canary and the coal mine? Because
they say, you know, it's not in the data. We're
not seeing that, but I would argue it's because the
folks who do ask those types of questions, their analysis
is not really lifted up in the mainstream discourse about
the economy. And so when you kind of asked the
question of you know, are we being told everything?
Speaker 3 (03:57):
I would actually argue.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
That people are providing answers to better understand the economy
as a whole, especially as it relates to marginalized groups.
But some of those answers are quite frankly, not the amplified,
and that's because of who's actually providing those answers in
the first place.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
I feel that.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
That's always tail as old as time. It's not that
nobody is providing this information or doing this work just
about eddiething. You can imagine there is somebody who has
made this their life's work. The problem is that conversation
might not being be amplified, and frankly, it might not
be getting to the people who need to hear it most, right, right,
that's exactly right.
Speaker 5 (04:37):
Yeah, Yeah, And that's another point that Anna and I
have talked about as we're working on this piece, is
you know, historically black women, like with the Great Recession,
you know, we were seeing foreclosure rates go up among
that group in particular, and even kind of in the
two thousand and six to two thousand and eight period,
(04:58):
you know, rising, you know, problems saying bills, all of
those things, but all too often, even the scholars and
the economists at the time who are flagging that it
gets overlooked by the mainstream however you want to define
that mainstream media other things. And what's bad about that,
First of all, it's it's leaving black women in the
(05:20):
eye of economic storm. But it's also means that we
lose the opportunity to intervene more quickly and start to
prevent this widening economic downturn. And so I think that
the pattern, you know, social patterns don't just happen.
Speaker 6 (05:37):
They're not just accidents.
Speaker 5 (05:39):
And I think it's just a larger reflection of how
black women are are ignored and overlooked more broadly in
our society.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Even this discourse that we're having right now is quite frankly,
to me and many other Black.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Women who study these topics, really surprising. Right.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
So, when I saw that the lead story in the
New York Times Times was, you know, featuring the work
of Cottacker Roy around three hundred thousand black women leaving
the labor force.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
This is not something that would have been a headline
even two years ago, right, And.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
So there is sort of this shift now that we're
starting to see around at least black women being seen
as important to the economy, and you know, our position
being acknowledged as something that's meaningful to have this country
moves forward, but also you know how our job market
moves forward, how our labor force moves forward, et cetera.
(06:30):
And I think that that's actually a good thing that
we're starting to have this conversation out in the open.
And I'm really glad that marian and I have been
able to contribute towards that discourse as well. So it's
great that people are talking about this issue more. What
do you think has made people pay more attention to
black women's economic realities and what it means for all
of us. Why are we suddenly seeing headlines about this.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
I think folks are just realizing, wait a minute, that's
a problem.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
I would also say too, that the speed at which
black would have exited the labor force is very concerning
to a lot of people, because at least to me
and Marianna and I have had a conversation about this.
Another way to reframe this discussion is three hundred thousand breadwinners,
three hundred thousand taxpayers. Right, So we're not just talking
(07:18):
about this random minority women group over there that's not
really relevant to our overall economy in our society. We're
talking about people who contribute actual dollars to the GDP
of this country. What I like to say is, you know,
whether or not you think black women are human is
quite literally irrelevant because at the end of the day,
(07:40):
the economy is still gonna take my money, sure will.
So I'm not gonna go ahead and benchmark on your
bigotry because your bigotry ignores reality.
Speaker 6 (07:52):
Yeah, I mean to build on some of those themes.
Speaker 5 (07:55):
I think the other dynamic that's happening is our government
is telling us that these issues are are not important anymore,
and the going after and banning certain words, pulling funding
on certain kinds of studies. I think there is a
societal pushback to that, which is to say, actually, I'm
(08:17):
going to want to know more about those things. So
when you know, when when women and racism and those
kinds of words become targeted by the government and essentially
effectively trying to silence any research or discussion on those things.
That what that can do is say, huh, why why
are they trying to do that and putting more putting
(08:40):
the idea into people's minds that maybe we should know
more about this. So I think there's that that's part
of the story as well.
Speaker 6 (08:47):
And then you know, we were living.
Speaker 5 (08:49):
Through a wild moment historically, I mean the pandemic. We're
not that many years out from the start of it,
and it during that time with the she session and
that black women were hit you know, the heart, one
of the hardest, the groups that experienced, you know, some
of the biggest shocks and unemployment. And so that story
is not that far off the radar either. So I
(09:12):
think there's several different factors that creates the market and interest,
if you will, and all of this, and it's it's
frankly great to see and it is a change.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
And you really spoke to something I think is super important, this.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Idea of well, you can you know, go along with
this administration not not see race and putting that in
heavy scare quotes, not think about things like gender, DEI.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Whatever, whatever you want to say.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
But it's like that Beyonce quote, I always come back
to you when you play me, you play yourself right,
And so if you if you buy into that, you're
just going to end up being in the dark about
what is happening economically in your own household, regardless of
whether or not you're a black woman, regardless of how
you feel about black women personally.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
First of all, we love Beyonce in.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
This household, so thank you so much for or quoting
our good sis.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
I will say too, you know.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
I'm seeing a lot of folks being like you know,
I hate DEI I don't like diversity. I don't like
And the gag of the matter is maybe this country
is becoming diverse, whether you like it or not. Demographically,
we are headed towards a more diverse country, whether you
like it or not.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Gen Z was essentially half.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Minority, half majority right, majority white. Jen Alpha is now
majority minority, and the generation as for that is going
to be substantively majority minority rather than just majority white.
And I think that it's just irresponsible to not be
considering other groups because dealing with their inequalities makes you uncomfortable.
(10:50):
It's irresponsible, right, because at the end of the day.
These are real people, these are real lives. Folks are
trying to make a buck. Folks are trying to make
a life. They're trying to make a living. And so
it's in nobody's best interest if a segment of our
population is not you know, reaping the fruits of their labor,
(11:11):
or are not benefiting from the economy that they're contributing towards. Right,
it builds resentment, but it also, quite frankly, it's kind
of stupid. Right, so people are like, oh, like, I'm
so sorry, I'm trying to be polite.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
I can't. So it's like people are trying to say, like.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Oh, you know, why do we have to care about
those black folks because those black folks make up twelve
percent of your population. Let me put it like this,
if twelve percent of your body wasn't working, do you
think you would be.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Functioning right now? Absolutely?
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Not?
Speaker 3 (11:42):
All right then, and I rest my case.
Speaker 5 (11:45):
Well, and just that we won't have you know, there's
all these these forces that are coming together to shape,
to shape the dynamics that that Anna is laying out,
but that that we won't have enough people. I mean,
we already know that with the lower you know, lower
birth rates and things like that, and so we're going
to need not just that our own population has become
(12:09):
much more diverse, and especially in the younger you know,
now I think we're jen alpha is on the scene,
but we will need immigration.
Speaker 6 (12:17):
There is actually really no way that.
Speaker 5 (12:19):
We'll be able to sustain ourselves, like economically in terms
of innovation and just jobs that need to be filled. So,
you know, dealing with questions around you know, race and
ethnicity and you know, immigrant status and all those things engineerous.
It's not going away, despite people maybe wanting it to
(12:40):
go away.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Both of you have referenced this idea of black women
as these canaries and a coal mine when it comes
to the health of our economy. We have talked about
how black women and the health and well being of
black woman is an indicator, like we talk about it
when we talk about like the health and well being
of the internet. How black women are treated on these
spaces really does say a lot about the overall safety
(13:01):
and health of these spaces. But when it comes to
jobs and the economy, what does it look like in
practice for black women to be these canaries in the
coal mine.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Of the health of the economy.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
So I'm a a ciple of a wonderful framework that's
been coined by Janelle Jones, one of my dearest friends
in the economic space, and.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
It's called Black Women Best.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Black Women Best basically argues that the best outcome for
Black women is a better outcome for everyone else.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
I think the way that Janelle and Angela.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Hanks have put it, along with Kendra Bozarth, is if
the economy is working for Black women, it's more than
likely working for everyone else.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
And I think the.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Way to frame this is, you know, think about a
ven diagram, but each circle represents a different group within
our society. Black women are dead center of the overlapping
circles in our society.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Right, we're working class, we're middle class. Some times we're poor.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
We're highly educated, we have student debt, we're breadwinners for mothers,
we're caregivers. Right, we serve a very important economic role
amongst women.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
In our society. Specifically, black women have the highest labor
force participation rate, meaning that we work, quite frankly, the
hardest within our labor force, within our job market. And so.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
When we think about policies, especially economic policies, dealing with
sort of the job market, the labor force as it
pertains to black women. Black women are really telling you.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
About a lot of people's different experiences.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
In one fell swoop, right, Because if we are a
dead center experience for our current society, especially amongst those
who are most marginalized and who face inequality, then what's
happening to us is probably giving you insight to what's
happening to the white guy who's also struggling with the
job market, or what's happening to the Latina mother who's
also trying to make end meet. And so it's important
(15:02):
to pay attention to what's taking place with us as
canaries and the coal mine, so to speak, because of
these overlapping experiences that we encompass in our own lived
experience and in our own identity. But I would also
say too that the Black Women Best framework really argues
that black women.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Are the tie that lifts all boats. And so in
the book that I wrote, The Double Tax, I basically
say that what black women are currently experiencing right now
is the double tax, this compounded cost of racism and sexism, which,
like I said before, overlaps with all these other experiences
that people are dealing with.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
But what I say is that if you don't address
these individual costs that these black women women of color
are dealing with day to day, they become societal.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Costs down the line.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
And another way I would visualize this is what happens
to black women first in terms of the Canary and
the coal mine, is almost like your neighbor's house catching
on fire down the street. You see it's three houses down,
You see the smoke, you smell the flames, and you
saying I'm not going to pay attention. Is like you
going back into the house and being like, I'm gonna
go ahead and watch another episode of Love Island. That's crazy,
(16:15):
you know, yes, Because at the end of the day,
if that fire catches the next house next to you,
guess who's house is about to go up to flames.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
It's about to be your house.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
So and it's your best interest to assure that the
whole neighborhood doesn't catch on fire because that house was
on fire.
Speaker 7 (16:34):
Let's take a quick break at our back.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Okay, So we've been using that phrase canary in the
coal mine when we talk about how harms often impact
black women before they go unchecked and harm everyone oh
so much beyond that, because it's not just that everyone
should care about what happens to black women economically, because
if we're struggling, everyone else is about to be struggling too.
It's also that we are real people with real lives
(17:12):
and real families and real stories who are also a
really big part of our economy. There is no economy
without black women.
Speaker 5 (17:20):
Black workers aren't important demographic just like every other demographic,
because they're people in our society. And so it's it's
whether or not they're the Canarian the coal mine, and
it's sort of and people actually reached out to me
after the piece saying, you know, it's just it's not
only because they're the Canarian the coal mine that we
(17:41):
need to care, right So it's it's Danna's point that
we need to make sure that everyone's able to contribute
in the economy in ways that are you know, secure
and with dignified work and all of those things, but
the other ways that they this group, historically marginalized groups
(18:01):
often are the first to be hit. Black women being
you know, in recession after recession, really like the they're
the first hit and the hardest hit and that's the
other thing is we can look at, Okay, who's whose
unemployment rates are going up, how quickly are they going up,
how long are they unemployed, like how hard is it
to find another job? And it does provide like a
(18:24):
window into likely what's about to happen to other groups
as this kind of the economic squeeze spreads across across
the larger economy. But the other thing I'd say I
was thinking about this morning is.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Worry.
Speaker 6 (18:39):
And I think worry is an.
Speaker 5 (18:41):
Interesting way of seeing into an economy where you know,
it's dynamic, it's hard to exactly know what's around the corner.
But the survey that we found that showed that we
write about in the article that showed, like, I mean what,
I was pretty shocked by the statistic, which is that
the there's been a massive increase in the percentage of
(19:02):
Black women who are saying that they're worried about or
have said that economic conditions have worsened over the last year.
So in twenty twenty four it was forty percent. It
jumped to eighty seven percent in twenty twenty five, Right,
So that's massive more Black women are worried right now
about routine and rising bills than at the you know,
(19:22):
than at the early part of the pandemic. So to me,
I think, you know, this is a group that you know,
it's kind of like here we go again. And I
feel like groups that have experienced this, they're they're faster
to see what's happening because it's hitting them and more
of more people in their community. They're connecting the dots
and they're seeing things and so as as sort of
an arbiter around like what is happening and how bad
(19:44):
could it be? Like this is the group that I
think has seized things the clearest. So the worry was
also made me made me pause. I think that they're
seeing it exactly as it is.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
The last time we saw an up in black women's
worry was right at the very beginning of the COVID
nineteen pandemic. So you're saying that black women like me
have not been this worried since the early days of
the pandemic back in twenty twenty.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
That seems bad to me.
Speaker 5 (20:15):
We were working on this post for a while and
I was at a conference, and I was in a
hotel room, and I was like looking at all this
stuff and I it was just like whoa, I just
I like remember the moment that that kind of connected
in my brain.
Speaker 6 (20:27):
I was like, oh, yeah, no, this is uh you know.
Speaker 5 (20:30):
I mean it's always hard to know again because things
change and the economy is so it could be fast moving.
But I think that this group is telling us something
that's really important and we need to pay attention to
it because they're almost always right.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Right at the very beginning of COVID, I remember seeing
black women's unemployment shoot to seventeen percent. I think it
was sixteen point eight percent according to Economic Policy Institute.
And you know, we also saw that the recovery the
two thousand and eight financial crisis was way slower than
the people were expecting, right, and so black women were
quite frankly, the last group to recover from that crisis.
(21:10):
And that again speaks to the experiences of other people
who have overlapping experiences with black women that we're also
suffering hosts two thousand and eight. And so, you know,
I think a Mariam kind of hit the nail on
the head. It's not just that, you know, black women
are kind of a warning signal for what's happening with
our economy.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
And beyond.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
But it's also that this is a part of our economy, right,
So if a part of our economy is on fire,
we need to put that fire out.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
And that means that we.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Need to pay attention to those worries that they're expressing,
and that we also need to ensure that the policy
solutions that are on the table are essentially accounting for that.
We've seen you know, Congresswoman Eleana Presley really call for
that by specifically addressing the Federal Reserve Board.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Share Jerome Powell.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
And I think that we need more congressional leaders, local leaders,
and stay wide leaders to do the same.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
I'm so glad you brought up that point that it's
not just about you know, job numbers. It's also the
important piece that black women are often the first to
get hit with a crisis and then the last to
experience that the recovery from that crisis.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
What does that look like and what has the impact?
Speaker 7 (22:20):
Ben?
Speaker 5 (22:21):
Well, it doesn't look good, right, I mean, it's it's
it's it's really concerning.
Speaker 8 (22:26):
I mean the other thing, as you know, as doing
the kind of work on this piece, was just you know,
the point that black women were still losing jobs when
they're great, recession was declared over, Like, how do you
declare a recession over when people are still losing their
jobs in sizable numbers?
Speaker 6 (22:46):
So yeah, and I think what it.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Does is it.
Speaker 6 (22:51):
That it it shows how hard.
Speaker 5 (22:55):
That this this group in particular gets hit, but then
how little is done to actually kind of support the
group that is struggling the most. And why is that?
And then and then what the concern is over time
is that certain groups are less left worse off and
(23:16):
worse off and worse off, creating, you know, this kind
of effect that makes it even harder for for black
women to to get back to the other point about
black women best, Like my understanding is that you know,
we were barely back to a point for black women
where their their employment was had returned to where it
was pre pandemic.
Speaker 6 (23:35):
Right, So now it's like this kind.
Speaker 5 (23:37):
Of churning happening, and it's very difficult for people to
kind of get security, have any social mobility. And again
that has implications not just for those groups, but for
our economy overall.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Black women hold a very important economic position in their
communities and in.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Society at large.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
So we know that quite a few mothers are breadwinners
in their house. So I don't know the number exactly,
but black mothers, I believe sixty nine percent of them
are the breadwinners of their household.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
So just let's think about that for a second. They
have people relying on.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Them, kids, grandparents, relatives, sometimes family friends.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
And so if you're losing income.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Because you're dealing with cuts to the federal workforce, cuts
to industries where you're discoforcedly represented, it's not just hurting
your pocketbook, it's hurting the economic future of your household.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
And I think we need to.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Really contextualize what role black women, especially black mothers, are
playing in their communities.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
They're upholding their community.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
They're strengthening their communities through their dollars, through what they're
able to invest in with their dollars. And so what
happens when those dollars disappear. Entire communities are impacted. It's
so interesting. I had an event yesterday in DC and
(25:20):
so and I'd asked a question about, you know.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
How are black men affected by what's happening to black women? Well,
black men.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Black men are in community with black women, and oftentimes
black men are being supported in some way by black women.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
And so if black women lose, black men also lose.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Black children also lose, but also black men, black women,
all these different communities are in different places across our country.
They're not just right in a black neighborhood. They can
be in white neighborhood, they can be in mixed race neighborhoods.
They're in different class levels. So we're not talking just
(26:02):
about you know, this single are group and this vacuum
and this silo. We're talking about twelve percent, seven percent
in some kits for black women of the population. What
happens when seven percent of the population can't meaningfully contribute
to our economy. The answer is simple, our economy shrinks
and those communities suffer.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
I mean, there's simply no way forward without black women politically, economically, socially,
family wise, community wise, We just we just we don't
get to where we're going without including us clocket exactly.
Speaker 7 (26:38):
Not sorry.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
More, after a quick break, let's get right back into it.
I was raised by an incredibly high at black women,
and honestly, it was a little intimidating. I always heard
(27:06):
people call my mom a superwoman because she never seemed
to drop a ball. She did everything and did it flawlessly.
But what I never really saw as a kid was
the cost of all that. Mom never got to rest,
she never got to stumble, she never got to just be. Yes,
black women are extraordinary, but we're not superheroes. I mean
(27:26):
shouldn't have to be. We shouldn't have to do it
all and prove our strength every single day just to survive,
because no matter how determined or brilliant you are, you
can't fix a broken system by yourself, and you can't
truly thrive inside one either. I wanted to get more
into this because you know, I'm a black woman.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
I was raised by a black mom.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
I do think there is a cultural attitude that, oh,
we'll figure it out. Black women will always figure it out. Well,
we'll do what needs to be done. But you can
only do so much when you were up against these
horses that are very clearly systemic and institutional.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Right, you can't. You can't.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Like black women are, we are strong, we are talented,
all of that, but like we can genuinely only do
so much up against forces like this that are so
ingrained and so systemic.
Speaker 5 (28:16):
Yes, you can't individual your way out of you know,
systemic inequalities.
Speaker 6 (28:23):
I think it is a important.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
Like and and I think a lot of groups have
these like cultural narratives of how to cope with really
terrible stuff and really terrible times, and it is it
does I think foster resilience and hope and those things
are important. But it is not the answer to you know,
inadequate policy. It is not the answer to you know,
(28:50):
the double tax, for example, of the you know, the
compounding nature racism and sexism, and so I think, you know,
for a long time now, for for so long, there's
been calls for policies to address the real obstacles to
you know, Black women employment or mobility or opportunity, and
(29:11):
it just, you know, it's we have eras where it
feels like there's a lot of progress and then you know,
as soon as as some the things start to shift,
I feel like it comes back down hard again. And
that is again reflective of how black women are in
the eye of the economic storm because they are so
(29:33):
so marginalized.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
I love what Marianne said there, you can't individual your
way through sort of these economic crises and inequality.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
We're large, and that's also that's always been true. Actually,
I feel right like just across time, movements of people,
lots of people have pushed the thing, you know, pushed
our society forward. And I feel like, you know, if
I had to get like a very practical piece of
advice to people who are listening, especially black women, if
(30:06):
you have a union in your workplace, I need you
to join it, like yesterday, okay, so please join your union.
You can join your union as a grad student. I
know we love school. So if you want to, if
you want to go back to grad school, right, make
sure you join your grad school union. It's extremely important
that you're protected because what Marianne is saying is so true,
(30:28):
and also what you're saying too is speaking to you know,
our our shared lives experience.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
But the reality is, like the labor market, the job
market more specifically fundamentally undervalues women's work, and even more
so undervalues Black women's work despite all of the sacrifices,
all of the hours, all of the effort that we
put through right or put put forth. And so it
(30:56):
is sometimes up to us collect actively to fight for
each other because you know, I hate to say like this,
but no one's coming to save us. They never have, right.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Oftentimes when we throw ourselves a lifeline, we actually end
up saving everybody else. And that's all to say that.
You know, of course other people need to be involved
in the process of making sure that marginalized groups like
black women are not falling behind.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
But can I be honest with you, I don't really
trust people. I don't. I'm so sorry at Marianna's is right.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
So my dissertation for the sake of the current climate
is talent development and acquisition. But what I really study
for those listening to make it really really hard for
your boss to be racist, to be a right. That's
what I do, and the way I do it is,
you know, I go by this saying, if you want
to be a biggot in your bathtub, be my guest.
(31:57):
If you want to bathe in the bubbles of bigger tree,
have a great time.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Okay, the moment you step outside, I'm gonna be right
there holding you accountable every time. Every time you open
your door, there's gonna be anna come out. So you're
gonna be a bigger today. Not on my watch, Not
on my watch. Take it back to the bathtub. Take
it back to the bath exactly right. Take it back
to the bathtub.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
And so I think the way this is all to
say we underestimate the power of accountability, especially as a collective.
And this is not like cancel culture, but it is
to say that as researchers, Marian and I are researchers,
as people who are just who have platforms like yourself,
(32:43):
as folks who are just on the Internet and just
walking around, we have the power to say no, actually
we don't like that, you know. And we sew this
kind of unfold across the world. In South Korea when
that God was trying to take over it, they said, nah,
Now they just happen to have a population that knows
(33:04):
how to fight, right.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
But that being said, they said no, we're not standing
for this, and.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
They literally took to the streets. And I think that
we have that same spirit within us. And so if
you don't think that the world should be unfair, unjust
and unequal, you lock arms with somebody who believes the
same thing and you fight together.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
That's how you move things forward.
Speaker 6 (33:30):
It's hard to put into words where we are right now.
It's very scary.
Speaker 5 (33:36):
It's we've had, you know, times in the past that
are seeming like they should have stayed in the past
that it just feels like, you know, a new fascist era.
Speaker 6 (33:47):
But every day, like I keep thinking to.
Speaker 5 (33:49):
Myself, all we have is each other, right, right, That's
really all we have because if the laws are changed
or they're not, you know, they're not in four or
you know. Anyway, I just think all we have is
each other. And and it's you know, collective action is
so powerful, and that's really how to the degree we've
(34:11):
been able to save ourselves. That's what that's been is
collective action social movements. And I think it, you know,
at a granular level, like what this looks like is
you know when people lose their jobs either because of
the economic forces or because they're targeted, or you know,
they posted something and you know.
Speaker 6 (34:32):
They're they're fire for it.
Speaker 5 (34:34):
Like I think it's it's being much more intentional about
how you are going to have other people's backs.
Speaker 6 (34:42):
What does that look like? You know, that sort of
mutual aid approach. But I just it's you.
Speaker 5 (34:50):
Know, we always have had moments of this, but this
is on a scale that is at least in my lifetime,
I haven't experienced it. So anyway, I just think we
have to be there for each other. And that's you know,
what does that mean that? I think it means like,
if you have a job to give someone, give it.
(35:11):
If you can give money, give it. If you can
be a source of support for someone, give it. But
it's you know, and this is going to be a
multi year so hopefully only a few Yes, we're allowing.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Me to keep from crying. Yeah, that's right, don't I
know it? That's right.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
I want to double click on that idea because so
I live in Washington, d C. And one of the
big things here, as you both probably know, is the
just the massive scale of layoffs, so, you know, layoff
some government. I think that good stable government jobs have
been the backbone of economic stability, at least where I
live here in DC the mid Atlantic region. And we
(35:54):
saw a lot of black women, kind of career civil
servants or like long time government workers really being pushed
out of these jobs. And I cannot help but get
the idea that there was this sense that oh, well,
those black women didn't really deserve those jobs, or they
weren't unqualified, or they were just taking a white man spot.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
Is this And I just feel that.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
The way that that is talked about is with such
disregard and it almost it almost is like it's it's
like a sneeringness about these women who really have been
doing so much to keep our government running, doing sort
of thankless, probably unglamorous work.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
Is this something that you all have seen?
Speaker 7 (36:35):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (36:35):
So you know what I.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Love about the double tax is that it really validates
black women's experiences and women of color more broadly, because
I think a lot of.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
People will play in our face and say, you know,
like you you're not.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Really qualified for this, right, or oh, you know that
personally got in because they're a DEI high or whatever.
But we know from the data, right, is that black
women experience the highest and over the lowest promotion rates
and are more likely than any other group to be
labeled as low performers in the workplace. This is worked
by Elizabeth Lino, son As Mabasri and Nino Russe. We
(37:12):
know this, This is the data that's speaking. We also
know that when it comes to promotions, this is the
work of Marion Cooper and the Women in the Workplace Report.
I love citing this work in the book that for
every one hundred men who were promoted in the workplace
in twenty twenty four. On average, eighty one women were
(37:33):
promoted Black women.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
It was fifty four, the lowest promotion rate amongst all
women groups. And so, you know, it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
I look at these stats and then I look at
the Black women that I know, and I think about
the ones that dot their eyes and cross.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
Their teeth, which is mainly most of us. Quite frankly, yes, right,
because this is the reality. There's very little room for error,
very little room for error.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
I know a little something about feeling like there's very
little room for error because black women, especially black women
in positions of power, are not really allowed to make
any kinds of mistakes on the job.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
So we have to cross our lives and dot RTAs.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
It's just the reality of being black women in the workplace,
because we know that it comes with already made attack
that you're only there in the first place because you're
a DEI higher. And we also know that it won't
take much for us to be on the chopping block.
Wants an example of a super qualified black woman being
mischaracterized as unqualified, just look at Lisa Cook.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
So currently, what's happening in the news is you have
very prominent black women being attacked by the administration in
a number of different areas, but let me maybe talk
about the one that I know the most. So, Governor
Lisa Cook is a name that is now a household name.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
I love that for her. I hate the reason why
it's a household name for right now, but you know,
her work is very brilliant.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
So Governor Lisa Cook is an economist, a macro economist,
one of the best I would argue in the profession.
And she currently occupies a role in the Federal Reserve
Board of Governors.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
For those who are like, I don't know.
Speaker 7 (39:19):
What that is.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
Does that affect me? Yes, it does affect you.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
And what that is essentially is the group of economists
that manage the group of economists that manage the economy. Right,
So these individuals ultimately make the call on interest rates,
which I know folks have heard about, because if you're
going to get a loan to buy a house, you're
looking at interest rates, if you're gonna think about, you know, inflation,
(39:44):
you're thinking about the grocery prices at your local grocery store.
And so these are the individuals who are making those
really important decisions that reverberate not just through our economy, but.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
Through the global economy.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Right, So it's not that what's happening here is just
happening here.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
It's actual relevant for the UK.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
It's relevant for what's happening in Ghana, right because everybody
is looking to the US about how our dollar is
going to be affected essentially by the decisions.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
That the FED makes. So what's happening right.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Now is this woman is being attacked, This black woman's
being attacked, and a lot of people are saying, you know,
she was unqualified, unqualified for a position that the President
of the United States appointed her for. Let's just state
that fact, right, the President Biden appointed her to this position.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
Let me tell you something about doctor Cook, probably the
most qualified person to ever serve on the FED. Ever.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
I'm not even kidding this woman. I'm rattle off and
then I'm gonna make my larger point. Went to Oxford,
went to UC Berkeley, went to Spelman, made history as
their first Marshall scholar. Worked the White House, worked at
the Treasury, worked on the helpful of economic advisors, was
appointed to a presidential transition team to lead the.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
Very group she's now a part of. Right, She's worked
at four out of the twelve federal Reserve banks, not
including her current position, which would make it five. So
she's worked at at.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
Least a third of the regional banks that contribute to
managing our economy. She has advised people in Asia, in Africa,
I'm looking at the phone with shock.
Speaker 3 (41:30):
Good guys, I'm confused. I'm looking for the lack of qualifications.
I can't find anywhere. Here's my point. My point is
black women. People look at us.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
They see our skin, they see our hair, they see
our brilliance, and they have to trick themselves into saying
there's no way that person can be all those things
at once. A lot of these people who are saying,
you know, black women are not qualified, what they're really
saying is diversity is at odds of merit. There is
no way that something can be meritocratic and you can
(42:03):
also be black. There's no way. But what the data
suggests is very clear. The folks who get a.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
Leg up.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
If we'resbility, it's not us we actually get a let down.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
We get a leg down. Y'all don't hire us because
we're black, but we still show up to the workplace anyway.
Y'all don't admit us because we're black. But forty three
percent of the white students at Harvard in twenty nineteen
were admitted off of nothing related to merit. They were
either related to family members who donated, they were either
children of staff or faculty, or they were athletes, which
(42:42):
we know from past scandals that that's another way to
get certain people into the door. This is how to
say that even though the stack is built like a
wall against us, nobody can take away the fact that
we are object stively qualified. And that has always been true.
(43:03):
I'll hear preaching a sermon.
Speaker 6 (43:06):
Yeah, I mean it's true.
Speaker 5 (43:08):
It is always interesting to notice when the the meritocracy
narrative is.
Speaker 6 (43:15):
You know, unleashed, and when and then when it's not. Uh,
And it.
Speaker 5 (43:22):
My own kind of the thing I often think about
when when this topic comes up, is that with the
Women in.
Speaker 6 (43:29):
The Workplace report stuff.
Speaker 5 (43:30):
So this is a collaboration between Mackenzie and leanin dot
org and we just had our tenth for part last
year and it's you know, each year there's tens of
thousands of employees. You do the survey and we have
a lot of data and so it's great. It's a
it's a it's so much data that we really can
see some very interesting patterns. What I have noticed over
time is that we, you know, periodically have this question like,
(43:53):
you know, do you want to be a top executive
or you know, senior leader or whatever. And what I've
noticed from an aspirations stam point is that black women
have higher aspirations to senior leadership than white women, and
black women's aspirations are similar to those of white men.
But when you look at the pipeline, so you look
at from entry level all the way up to the
(44:13):
c suite, what we see is white men are are
the group that becomes over represented over time. So they
start out, you know, at entry level they're like something
like a third of employees. To buy the c suite,
they're they're over half and so and then so for
black women it's sort of it's it's they they start
out and then they're they're underrepresented at each each step
(44:36):
up in that in that pipeline. And so my larger
point is like we either there's sort of two ways
to look at that, and in terms of understanding it,
you can either think that white men are smarter and
work harder than everybody else or something else is going on,
and we have now, you know, many decades of social
(44:58):
science research showing us that they're something else that's going on.
And these are the biases that are in all these
different kinds of people processes, from hiring to performance evaluation
to other things.
Speaker 6 (45:12):
But the idea that black women are.
Speaker 5 (45:16):
Not as competent as other groups of people is to
what animal speaking about. There is no room for error
because you have this higher bar and people are watching you.
And so the women that do get through, and particularly
the women of color that do rise up through an
organization or a field or whatever, they're usually better than everybody.
Speaker 6 (45:37):
Else because they have to be glock clock.
Speaker 5 (45:40):
So it's an interesting phenomenon that we can still, though,
have such a strong narrative that somehow all of these
people in quotes, which usually is code for, you know,
folks of color, particularly women of color, somehow are holding
positions in which they are not qualified for, have not
worked hard for, and just do not deserve. The data
(46:03):
shows the opposite, I think, which is also why there
are attempts to stop collecting the data. If you want
to hide or ignore social problem, you just stop collecting
the data. I mean, you could also manipulate the data,
which I'm also worried about.
Speaker 6 (46:18):
But in any.
Speaker 5 (46:19):
Case, this is the idea that somehow on the black
women holding jobs in federal government were they're because they
didn't deserve to be is just untrue. But they again
because of those massive job cuts to the federal government,
because black women held a higher percentage of jobs there,
(46:40):
that they got hit really hard in that. And we'll
be still as that continues.
Speaker 4 (46:49):
More.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
After a quick break, let's get right back into it.
If you encounter a black woman in a high up
leadership position, nobody gives us anything. So just just know
(47:10):
that she not only clearly deserves that position, probably frankly
deserves to be higher. Like nobody is more qualified than
a black woman in a leadership position because of how
how good we have to be to be let in
the door at all. Do you think they would do
like this idea that black women are being given positions
they don't deserve but are not qualified for.
Speaker 3 (47:30):
It's just it's.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
Almost funny to me, as someone who's in the working
world for most of my life.
Speaker 5 (47:36):
Yeah, it's it's well, you know, it's sort of like
that bitter It's like funny, not funny, it's like, it's
just it it blows one's mind, right, because and the
way that so many people actually still hold that belief is, uh,
it's yeah, it's just it's it's a lot.
Speaker 6 (47:56):
But that's how I feel.
Speaker 5 (47:57):
I mean, that's the whole thing about demon in the
start of themistration DEI and uh, you know, the pilots
and stuff like that, and I'm like, no, it's like
anytime you're looking at a pilot, surgeons, whatever that you know,
again because of the higher bar, because of the racism
and sexism, because you've been continually discounted, you know, mistreated
(48:19):
all those things. The people who make it to the
top in those roles, who are members of these historically
marginalized groups, they are by definition the best of the best.
So I'm actually always happy when my pilots are DEI folks.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
Yes, And I wanted to ask you about this because
I know the book The Double Tacks. What I love
about it is that it's you're not just sort of
laying out the facts and the figures of the situation,
it's also conversations and stories.
Speaker 3 (48:49):
What have women that you talked to for the book
told you the.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
Women I've spoken to, well, only be honest, like, uh,
I spoke to some women. We had a team of
women who spoke to women, so you know who we
spoke to. They conferred everything that we're talking about right now, right,
And I think that's kind of why I have to
bring the dat up, because it's not like we haven't
been having this conversation. This conversation has been long had
(49:14):
for so many years. And I think, you know, when
it comes to black women who are just trying to
make it to.
Speaker 3 (49:22):
The top, who The title of this chapter is called
the Broken Wrung, which is inspired by the Women in
the Workplace Report. What I argue is that, you know,
women in general are climbing a ladder with rungs that
are more further spaced apart, but for women of color,
especially Black women, those rungs are broken. What do I
(49:45):
mean by that? I mean, as we climb to.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
The top, it costs us something. It always seems to
cost us something. I can be very practical here and
say it might cost us our hair texture. You might
not be able to ruck as many braids, which is
why I think, like deshanda duckett is so important form
of representation, right now she rocks braids in her fortune
five hundred speaking circuits, right, which I think is very
(50:09):
very important. But I think there's a lot of nuances
that I want to introduce here if we're really getting
into it. We spoke to black women about you know,
what do you what are the challenges that you deal
with in the workplace. Maryam might not be surprised by this,
but some people listening might be.
Speaker 3 (50:28):
You know what they said, They said white women. Now
we're laughing because we know that's he But I think.
Speaker 1 (50:39):
It's important to bring this into the forefront because I
think that, you know, we've been talking a lot about
comparing black women to white men and how white women
are absolutely overrepresented in the highest paid professions by far.
The data supports this. This is data from the Center
from American Progress. I believe they make up at least
(51:01):
of every single one of the top ten hives paid
professions as of twenty nineteen.
Speaker 3 (51:07):
But when we kind of dig into.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
The actual workplace experience, a lot of times women are
interacting with women and this is where the double tax
can also arise. Where I say in the book, white
women are navigating the patriarchy at work right you're still
dealing with sexism, you're still dealing with gender inequality. This
is why we need sort of the fortifying ergs, if
(51:31):
you will, the employee resource groups to assist as we're
moving through the moving through the workplace.
Speaker 3 (51:37):
But black women will. Black women deal with the patriarchy too,
and they also deal with white women. And what I
mean by this.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
Is that there are some white women in the workplace,
according to black women that we spoke to that shared that,
you know, when they're just trying to do their job,
their question right, So they're getting the question of competence
from white men, and they're also getting the question.
Speaker 3 (52:08):
Of competence from white women.
Speaker 1 (52:11):
And what's interesting is that study I cited a while
back with Elizabeth Lino's and co authors.
Speaker 3 (52:17):
What they found was.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
If there's a higher share of white women on your team,
as a black woman, you're more likely to lead the
organization in addition to white men.
Speaker 3 (52:28):
So it's not just that white men.
Speaker 1 (52:29):
Are driving a turnover of Black women in the workplace,
it's also white women.
Speaker 3 (52:35):
And that's what our stories corroborated.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
And I think this kind of puts us in a
little bit of an awkward spot, right because a lot
of times when we're having these conversations about women.
Speaker 3 (52:43):
In the workplace, we don't really talk about race. Have
you noticed. I have noticed.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
I've noticed we don't talk about race. And it's interesting
because it's interesting derogatory. Let me start there and say that, like,
we're missing worries that are really important because what's happening
to the black women in the workplace at some point
will filter through to the white women, because who becomes
(53:10):
expendable is relative.
Speaker 3 (53:12):
You get rid of all the black.
Speaker 1 (53:13):
Women, it's just going to be the next group that
whoever is empowered things is expendable, and oftentimes that is
white women.
Speaker 3 (53:20):
And so I think that it's incumbent on us to
have very honest conversations about the difference in experiences that
we have as women. One of the big reasons why
I love this book, why Mary Anne, by the way,
was one of the experts on the chapter that I'm
talking about, so this is all not new to her, right,
(53:42):
is because it really forces us to reckon with whether
or not being a woman is a monolithic experience. And
what this book basically says in bold print and into
a megaphone is absolutely not the same experience across the board,
and we need to have a lot more conversations about why.
Speaker 5 (54:05):
There is no single story of women and we lose
a lot by trying to just say that there's you know,
womenness and women that it's like there are vast inequalities
among women themselves, obviously by race and ethnicity, but also
by social class and also by age. I think is
another one that has not talked about enough, and so
(54:29):
just yes, we need to have a more I think
there's so much variation we need to have that be
part of the conversation rather than thinking that there's just
like one one experience because it's just it's it just overlooks,
it ignores a lot of different stories that are unfolding
and obscures I think the stories that are most important
(54:51):
to tell.
Speaker 2 (54:52):
And it just speaks to the way that black women
our experiences can really get lost in it if we're
not having these intersectional conversations about what's going on that
really highlight like what it is that we're dealing with,
what it is that we're up against, and how those.
Speaker 3 (55:06):
Are all playing out.
Speaker 2 (55:08):
When you're saying, yeah, so the piece kind of ends
with you all saying that you know these early warning
signs are only useful if listened to. Let's not miss
the one black women are sounding yet again, So what
does it look like.
Speaker 3 (55:22):
To actually hear and respond to this warning that you
all are pointing out? I mean, I think one thing
that a.
Speaker 1 (55:28):
Lot of black women or commas have said is like,
we need to first and foremost even know that the
warning exists.
Speaker 3 (55:35):
And that begins with this aggregating the data. So I
think local and state leaders who.
Speaker 1 (55:39):
Have access to data about the labor market, who are
paying attention to the Bureau Labor statistics, dig into how
different groups are being impacted by these job cuts, by
what's happening with sort of these slashes to industries that
are disproportionately affecting Black women. I think it also means
(56:00):
really thinking about why it matters that black women in
particular stand to lose the most at this time. Black
women are breadwears, right, their moms. They're individuals who are
just trying to make a living and make a life.
As I said before, and I think using black women
as a benchmark for your policy making is extremely helpful
(56:24):
because it says, Okay, black moms are under pressure, right now,
let's go ahead and design a program locally or statewide
to ensure that we can support moms that might be
in similar positions, right or black young folks can't find
jobs right now, Let's see if we can as a
university maybe extend the career services beyond just you know,
(56:49):
you know, folks who are current students, and maybe have
a more robust programming to ensure that our alumni can
transition smoothly into the job market. So it's saying you
see that certain groups are setting up a smoke signal,
and I would even say they're running in the opposite
direction of something that is headed their way. And you
have a choice, Iiva, you can run alongside. This is
(57:11):
a running joke, right, because every time you see a
black person run, you're supposed to run two. That's usually
the game, is right, but you see a black person running,
you see a black woman running the other direction, and
instead of being like, oh, she's a fool for running,
the sun is out, things are great, and you decide
I'm gonna pull out my picnic planket and read my book,
(57:33):
you should ask her why are you running?
Speaker 3 (57:35):
What are you running from? Right?
Speaker 1 (57:37):
Because oftentimes she has a fantash point that you can't
comprehend or maybe you don't have the perspective to see.
And in this case, going with this metaphor, she's running
from a tsunami that's coming her way, and so she's
gonna try her best to get to safety. But one
thing you gotta know, this is the double tax come
on metaphor, is that she has got an anchor on
(57:58):
her ankle, right, something weight on our ankle, so she
can't run fast enough away from me. But if you
who has not that way, not that pressure, not having
to do with racism and sexism at that level, are.
Speaker 3 (58:11):
Also heating the warning.
Speaker 1 (58:13):
You can go into town and tell everybody else, hey,
we got to prepare to this, and da da da da,
And so by the time she gets there, she's not
swept up in the storm.
Speaker 3 (58:21):
So I think that's the way I would say, we
need this moment.
Speaker 1 (58:26):
We don't ignore you know, what's taking place, and we
don't stop at just saying, man, they're a warning signal,
and then we don't heat it. There's no use in
hearing the alarm and not acting on the emergency. If
there's an emergency, we need to do something about it.
Otherwise we all stand to lose much more.
Speaker 5 (58:45):
Yeah, I think that that sums it all up. And
if we ignore this, I think it will will be
back on our heels pretty quickly here. And if we
get in front of it by action listening to black women,
we could prevent a lot of pain for everybody, but
(59:07):
particularly for black women.
Speaker 6 (59:09):
So it's just.
Speaker 5 (59:12):
Too many times Black women's experiences in the economy but
otherwise have been ignored and it leaves you know, almost
everyone worse off as a result.
Speaker 2 (59:27):
Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, I
just want to say Hi. You can reach us at
Hello at tegodi dot com. You can also find transcripts
for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No
Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Todd.
It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative Jonathan Strickland
as our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and
sound engineer. Michael Almato is our contributing producer. I'm your host,
(59:48):
bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate
and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
check out the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts.
Speaker 3 (59:57):
Or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 7 (01:00:00):
The manhat rum with a long
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