Not gonna lie - it's been a rough week. The Trump administration has used Charlie Kirk's murder to crack down on dissent, shocking even their allies with their willingness to threaten critics and trample First Amendment values. But these authoritarians will fail. Bridget is joined by L. Joy Williams, president of the New York NAACP and host Sunday Civics on Sirius XM and wherever you get your podcasts, to recap the latest developments in our slide towards autocracy.
Jimmy Kimmel was fired to protect a multi-billion dollar merger of two of the country's biggest broadcast networks: https://variety.com/2025/tv/news/nexstar-jimmy-kimmel-suspension-fcc-pressure-1236523812/
Read Karen Attiah's Substack post about her firing from the Washington Post for repeating Charlie Kirk's own words: https://karenattiah.substack.com/p/the-washington-post-fired-me-but
Listen to guest co-host L. Joy Williams' podcast Sunday Civics: https://www.sundaycivics.org/
Read the DOJ report about domestic terrorism that the Trump Administration tried to hide. It's surprisingly readable, and unequivocal about the most common perpetrators of domestic terrorism – the far right: https://terrorismresearch.uark.edu/new-nij-article-highlights-decades-worth-of-research-findings-from-the-trc/?ref=404media.co
Michigan lawmakers continue Republicans' assault on speech and war against trans people: https://www.them.us/story/michigan-total-porn-ban-trans-josh-schriver
Some good news! Senators Tammy Baldwin (D-Wisconsin) and Lisa Murkowski (R-Alaska) have teamed up to co-sponsor a bill that would restore funding for suicide prevention among LBTQ+ youth: https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2025/09/18/baldwin-introduces-bill-to-restore-988-crisis-line-for-lgbtq-youth/86201082007/
If you’re listening on Spotify, you can leave a comment there to let us know what you thought about these stories, or email us at hello@tangoti.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production
of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this
is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Welcome back
to There Are No Girls on the Internet, a podcast
where we explore the intersect and the technology, social media
and identity. And this is another installment of our weekly
(00:27):
news roundup where we dig into some of the stories
that you might have missed online so you don't have to.
I am so pleased to be joined by this week's
guest co host, el Joy Williams, President of the New
York NAACP and host of the Sunday Civic Show on
sirius XM.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
El Joy.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Thank you so much for being here. I know it
is a weird, tough time.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
That is an understatement, bridge, but thank you so much
for inviting me, for us to talk trash about what's
happening in the world.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yeah, I mean we were talking before we started recording.
Just it just feels like a lot like generally when
I do these episodes, I'm having a cocktail.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
It's the end of a long Thursday.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
I'm sort of looking back on the week, and this
I just it doesn't things don't feel good.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Things don't feel right, Like I'll give it to y'all straight.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
It really feels like things have escalated quite quickly in
the wake of Charlie Kirk's murder. I will say I
have personally, I don't think I've ever seen anything quite
like this.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
What what have you been sensing around this?
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Well, I would say the same thing while I was
prepared for it, like you knew things were coming, and
but you don't know how things are going to be executed,
how people are going to take advantage of different moments
of different things, and really it is opportunistic in a
lot of spaces, and so On the one hand, I
(01:50):
feel like people are acting as if things are normal,
and I just want to go around and shake everyone.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
I was at a dinner.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Where being honored in like the whole room. There's one
of those dinners where like nobody pays attention to your phone.
Everybody's just talking and networking and dealing, and like they
had Cheryl swoops up there getting an award and like
nobody was paying attention. I was like, what is happening?
When I got up there, I was like, for the
four or five people who are listening to me, This
(02:21):
is indicative of what's happening out in the world, where
there is a set of people who are just like, oh,
this is just you know, normal, and I'm going to
continue my deals and my networking and things of that nature.
And there's only a handful of people paying attention, and
you have to capture.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Those who those few who are paying attention.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
We have to get rid of the moniker that we
need to get the masses and need to get everybody.
It's just like, no, just speak to the people that's
paying attention, builds and organize with them, and then eventually
that'll get larger and larger. So that's what it feels like.
It feels like you're trying to have some sense of normalcy,
particularly for me. I have kids and right so I
(03:03):
don't I can't walk around a house like the sky's falling,
but at the same time being able to clearly see
what's happening around you and develop plans to respond accordingly.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Spoken like a true organizer. This is why I'm glad
I have you on the show this week. I want
to ask you something that I hope is not too personal.
I don't have kids, my senses people that do have kids.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
It kind of forces you to.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Stay tethered to some sense of hope, to some sense
that something better is on the horizon. I feel, you know,
not having children myself, but I have a lot of
young people in my life and nieces and nephews and
people that I young, people that I care about.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
But there's something.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
I think, there's something about being a parent in this
time where you kind of have to force yourself, no
matter how dark things seem, to think there's something better
on the horizon for my kid.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Do you do you ever get that sense? Absolutely?
Speaker 3 (04:00):
There are all these obviously memes on TikTok and stuff
like that where there's like the mom having the nervous
breakdown and the kid comes and like gives them the
juice box to open for them, and there's just like, oh,
I open the juice box and then continue to slide
down the wall. So we experience that on a regular basis, right,
whether it's your own I mean, imagine coming home from
(04:21):
a hard day or like I said this, you know
past week has been you know, slammed me. I have
four kids, the youngest one being one years old, and
so when I'm laying on the couch and they come home,
they're jumping on top of me doing whatever. I can't
be like, don't be happy. You see what Trump is doing,
so DC like, you don't know what I mean. And
so it's how do you have the conversations the older
(04:45):
ones who are ten and sixteen, having conversations with them
because I don't want them to be completely disconnected from
what's happening in the world, and so talking to them
about the things that are happening in an appropriate manner
so that they're not walking around scared, but that also
they're aware. And then for me, as someone who's a
(05:05):
civics enthusiast, I always like to whether it's you know,
the adults who listen to the show I do Sunday Civics,
or even the young people I engage with. I give
them the hope that they have the power and the
ability to change things that they don't. You know, this
is not just stuff that's happening to you, but you
have an opportunity, and what tools do you have in
(05:28):
your toolbox to respond to what is happening around you.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
That's so important and I think especially right now when
we're having conversations about young people and this feeling of
nihilism and feeling you know, which I understand. But I
think the anecdote to that is offering what you're offering
that you actually do have agency, you can make change. Yeah,
being raised by an organizer, I think you're probably raising
young folks who feel quite engaged and quite empowered to
(05:54):
make change in their communities.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Absolutely, And I have a ten year old who quite
offen in his organized and something something in a classroom
or something. Although she called me old today, so I'm
not gonna speak pop. Well, wasn't being born in the
early nineteen hundreds.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Oh my god?
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Sometimes I will be so humbled, like kids will humble
you so quickly, it's it really is ridiculous. Absolutely, Well,
let's talk more about this, because even though I feel
like I've done I've done quite a bit of research,
and I still don't feel confident saying, you know, in
terms of what happened with Charlie Kirk, that we know
exactly a.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Clear motive, like don't. I don't think we're there yet.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
But that has not stopped the Trump administration and their
allies from really using this to crack down on a
lot of free expression and speech. We talked about this
in our recent episode that I recorded the day that
Charlie Kirk was killed, but we've really seen it ramp
up since then. The Washington Post opinion columnist Karenatia was
fired for essentiallyvoing Kirk.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
On social media.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Will actually hear from Karen Natia in her own words
and an upcoming episode, so stay tuned for that. It
does sound to me like they were kind of angling
to get her out of the Post ever since Amazon's
Jeff Bezos bought the paper and really announced it as
a much more kind of conservative, Trump friendly slant. But
so it sounds like since that change, they have been
(07:23):
sort of angling to get her out of the Post.
But since she was fired, there are no black columnists
at the Post.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
She was the last one.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
In a substack post, she wrote quote, as a columnist,
I used my voice to defend freedom and democracy, challenge power,
and reflect on culture and politics with honesty and conviction.
Now I am the one being silenced for doing my job.
On Blue Sky. In the aftermath of the horrific shootings
in Utah and Colorado, I condemned America's acceptance of political
violence and criticized its ritualized responses, the hollow, cliched calls
(07:54):
for thoughts and prayers, and this is not who we
are that normalize gun violence and absolve white perpetrators, especially
while nothing is done to curb deaths. I expressed sadness
and fear for America. My journalistic and moral values for
balance compelled me to condemn violence and murder without engaging
in an excessive false mourning for a man who routinely
attacked black women as a group, put academics in danger
(08:15):
by putting them on watch lists, claimed falsely that black
people were better off in the era of Jim Crow,
and said that the Civil Rights Act was a mistake,
and favorably reviewed a book that called liberals unhumans in
a sense. Deleted post, a user accused me of supporting
violence and fascism. I made clear that not performing over
the top grief for white men who espoused violence was
not the same as endorsing violence against them. My only
(08:38):
direct reference to Kirk was one post his own words
on the record, so that first of all her words,
I think, I think she's a hell of a writer,
but I think that bit is the substance of why
the post says that they fired her. So essentially, she
posted on Blue Sky a quote that she attributed to Kirk, quote,
black women do not have the brain to be taken seriously.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
You have to go steal a white persons slot.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Now there is a small quibble here in that bit
when we actually played Kirk's an audio from Kirk's show
in our episode about Charlie Kirk. But the quibble is
that they're saying, oh, well, he was talking about a
handful of specific black women Michelle Obama, Joy Reid, then
Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee, Supreme Court Justice Katanji Brown Jackson,
(09:24):
like he was like naming specific women. So my senses
that in order to justify her firing, they're saying, oh, well,
she misquoted Kirk because she's making it sound like he
was talking about black women writ large. But really he
was talking about these specific black women, which, in my opinion,
I just don't I.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Think gets over small like small linguage, right, because it's
not as if this one individual statement was taken out
of context. There is a pattern in practice of this
person stating inflammatory things that are gear towards a particular people,
ethnic group, organizations, and things of that nature. So it's
(10:06):
not as if a journalist is sort of mischaracterizing this person,
but that it is part of the pattern and practice
of the rhetoric that they were doing on a daily basis.
And you know, I think for a large part, as
you mentioned, for a lot of things that are happening again,
I believe people are just taking the moments and the
(10:27):
opportunities right using it as an excuse. The reason why
I want to fire Lisa Cook is also because I
want control over the Federal Reserve Board. The reason why
you know, I want to fire all of these people
in particular agencies is because I want to take over
the money that is in there, and also your contracts,
private contracts to the people that I owe money to
(10:50):
for private prisons. So I think for a lot of it,
it is taking the opportunity and rolling people up right
to again, which we do very well in American history.
We do very well, particularly wealthy people. And I'm talking
about uber wealthy. I'm not talking about y'all with like
a million dollars, right, I'm talking to uber wealthy where
(11:13):
they point the finger at other people, right, they say, oh,
you can't afford a bread. You know why that is
is because of the people coming across the border. Oh
you can't get a job. That's because you know, you
have all of these people with visus coming over from
Sauth Korea. Right, So it continues to point the finger
that the issue that you are most pressed about, the
(11:35):
pocketbook issues that people keep saying that they point back
to the people as opposed to the folks who are
in power and making the decisions and continuing to make
the money. We've done that time and time again. When
blacks and whites after reconstruction are rebuilding cities and towns,
and you have poor white folks and poor black folks
(11:57):
coming together building in fighting back for workers' rights, voting rights,
and things of that nature, there is a split. They're
telling the poor white people. Well, we'll give you an
extra two dollars, we'll give you an extra five dollars.
You'll be in charge. You'll be management over these people. Right.
You can't view yourself as the same, you know, as
(12:18):
these black people who were formally enslaved goodness.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
No.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Right, Then, fast.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Forward when people are organizing in the union movement and
there again telling white people who now we consider white,
but telling Irish people and Italians and others who were
organizing again with black people, with Asian people, with Mexican people,
for workers' rights and things of that nature, and saying,
you don't want to be like them, you want to
be white over here.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Right.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
So we have a pattern in practice in this country
when I say we right of coring to the wealthy
people and believing their argument on who's responsible for our
present condition, and it's a distraction from the peace people
who continue to make money.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Absolutely fucking correct, and it's so effective. Sometimes I can't
believe how effective it is. I can't believe that this
that this old. I mean, I guess that's why it's
an old, tried and true tactic. I can't believe that
here we are in twenty twenty five that same thing
that was being used to divide us decades ago is
still effective. I cannot believe that it's still something that
(13:24):
we have to contend with. But I guess that's why
it's an old testnut is because it works, right, It.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Is because of an unhealed wound of race and slavery
and not really you know, just think about here in
the state of New York, where we're dealing with, you know,
a mayor's race and a governor in New York State,
who seemingly are in the same tent. You'll have to
bring me back and have a whole nother you know,
(13:51):
listen to my tirade on why there shouldn't be just
two parties because there is no possible way that AOC
and Hillary Clinton should be in the same political party.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
But I digress.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
But having the conversation even in New York about raising
taxes on people that are making six hundred seven hundred
million dollars right, people are like, no, I can't raise taxes.
All the wealthy people will leave. So my first reaction
is like, okay, bye, they have the wherewithal the goal
wherever they need to go to continue to make money
(14:23):
and you know, feed their families and things of that nature.
But those of us right who are working class, barely
making it, a lot of people didn't leave because they
have no resources in things to leave to go to
a different to go to a different place. So my
first reaction is by the second thing is a lot
of them probably already take advantage of shelling their money
(14:46):
around and things like that, so they play less taxes
to begin with, and so instead of cutting the programs
that are going to be much needed, particularly in this
time where the federal government is cutting all different departments
from healthcare, which is a huge concern for us here
in the state of New York, education, even snap benefits
and all of those things. Just then say to the
(15:07):
people that are hanging on, who need the affordability to
begin with, who need the relief to begin with, to say, oh, well,
we're getting less money, so you're gonna have to do
more with less. Well, ni motherfucker's over here with like
millions of dollars and they're just.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Like, oh, sorry for you must be hard, be.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Hard, right, I'm going to come like it doesn't make
any sense. And particularly while it's a small percentage a
majority of people that are in because I don't want
to castigate all wealthy people like this, because some of
there are a lot of people is just like, yeah,
I'll pay more so that I can have a functioning
infrastructure in this state and in this city to continue
(15:48):
to make the money that I need to make, because
they have understood that it's not about, you know, putting
money in a system that doesn't get back, is putting
money in the system so that we can all benefit. Right,
I put money and I pay taxes so that I
can have the infrastructure of roads. I put money and
I put taxes in so that I can have the
infrastructure of public schools. I put money in and I
(16:10):
pay my taxes so that I can have health care.
And then in the instance where okay, I have health
care and I can afford it, you can take care
of other people who may need it, which benefits us all.
And so people thinking that if we do something over
here that it literally takes something out of your pocket again,
is a story and a narrative that we have been
(16:33):
led to believe.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
And it's a lie. It's absolutely a lie.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
And what you just described is community is a society.
It's how we all live together. But there are people
that hear what you just described and think it's awful,
and then it's just so funny to me.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
How I mean, this is such a tangent.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
But you know, hearing about how the Trump administration is
thinking about bailing out farmers.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Socialism, Yes, who's the aid?
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Is socialism and evil and horrible? And whose aid is? Oh, well,
that's just American, that's a bailout, right, Like who decides
we believe in socialism.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
We believe in socialism for banks, We believe in socialism
for farmers. We believe in socialism for private prisons, right
like we believe in socialism when it's making money for
other people.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
You know. The other thing I would say is this.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
Nature of this question. If you're talking to people who,
although you don't see them much anymore, the people that
have the don't Tread on Me T shirts.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
I wonder where they went.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
I'm so curious, just like did they stop printing them?
Is it like rush order tees and custom Inc? Not
printing the T shirts anymore? But they often talk about
like the federal government being too big. And then this
is also where me as a nerd comes in, right
because I'm like, compare the size of the federal government
and the population with the founding of this country too. Now, yes,
(17:58):
the federal government has to be bigger because we got
more motherfucking people, Like so there's more people to.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
Take care of.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Like that, Like it's just common sense.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
We have more people, Oh so we need more money
in order to we actually expanded because of the founder
of the country. We didn't have as much physical right
place that we had in the founder of the country.
So going all through the territories and building infrastructure and
schools and roads and healthcare infrastructure and all that kind
of stuff takes more money because we got more people
(18:31):
and we actually have more land to take care of.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
So it's common sense. Common sense is not so common anymore.
That is really how I'm feeling.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
Let's take a quick break at our back.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
So we're talking about all of these different crackdowns on
free speech in the wake of Charlie Kirk's murder, even
though it kind of seems like none of this is
actually about Kirk. It's an excuse, right like that, like
this is the reason that they're using to do what
they've always wanted to do.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Unfortunately, I think people take and I think this is
the nature of politics in general. People use different moments
to as an opportunity. Oh, we have the opportunity to
spread this message a little bit wider, to engage, to organize,
and it's done to Faressley, and it's done from an
(19:39):
organizing perspective as well. Just think about how we as
organizers use moments, right. You know, there was during the
George Floyd.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Eruption.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
People took the moment to you know, address legislation that
have been pending for some time, you know, the movements
that you know we're dying. And now you've got new people,
you know, who are aware and energized and educated, and
so you're going to fill them in on that. And
so I think what is difficult, though, what I call
(20:11):
the nefarious thing is taken advantage of someone losing their life.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Now I don't.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Believe like I'm personally, you know, because I know that
they're seeking the death penalty for this person or whatever.
You know, my faith doesn't allow me, you know, my
faith tells me that we are not embody to take
anybody's life, right, and so, you know, there are ways
we can't be the most advanced creatures in society and
(20:37):
still not figure out a way to punish people for
these things, and to take advantage of this moment when
someone lost their life, no matter how you know, vile
his rhetoric and everything may be. I don't wish people
to die, you know what I mean, I don't in
particularly not in the manner in which we are. And
(20:58):
so instead of taking that moment, instead of taking that
moment to address the pervasive violence, and particularly gun violence
in our country, right that we use that as an
opportunity for government. Because here's what's happening. Government is actually
limiting speech, which is the very thing that the Constitution says,
(21:19):
me telling you bridget you can't say that, you know,
or something like that, Like, that's not what the constitution
it says. It's saying the government cannot abridge your free
speech right. And so the government, federal agencies, federal staff
and appointed you know, agency directors and things of that nature,
(21:42):
telling people that you can't say that or things of
that nature is the very definition of the federal government
limiting the speech. Now we also say what you can
say the thing, it doesn't prevent the repercussions you know
that you may experience. So sure you can me didn't work,
might get pushed.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
In a face like that's the reconvession you got.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Like from that standpoint, you know what I mean. So
I think, you know, again, I think the taking of
opportunity and not addressing the root cause, right, because again
people are taking advantage or taking the opportunity to further
their old narratives rather than using the opportunity to address
(22:27):
what is really the culprit, which is the pervasive gun
violence in our communities.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
I want to talk about that because when I saw
that Karen was getting fired from the post, I was like, oh, well,
black women, we are so often the sort of canaries
in a coal mine. You know, we've seen black women
after a black women being targeted and fired by the
Trump administration, black women like Joy Reid and Jameel Hill
being fired from media jobs, are pushed out, you know,
a black woman is fired or silenced or or centered
(22:55):
off the internet, and then it's like crickets and then
it's like, Okay, no one's gonna do anything.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Oh Jimmy cam was fired and the people got statements
in like exactly, So let's talk about that.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
So I've seen a lot of reporting suggesting that Kimmel
was taken off the air because of his comments about Kirk,
But to me, that's not even totally correct. I will
play you the actual thing that he said about Kirk.
Speaker 5 (23:19):
We hit some new lows over the weekend with the
Magga Gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered
Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them and
everything they can to score political points from it.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
So, to me, the way that this has been reported
is like, oh, he said horrible things about Charlie Kirk.
He wasn't being respectful. He's actually talking about exactly what
you were talking about. He's talking about a critique about
how people are using Charlie Kirk's murder to further their
own narrative, to push their own agenda, to exploit. Essentially,
(23:52):
that's what he's talking about. And according to Rolling Stone,
multiple ABC executives felt that Kimmel had not even actually
said anything that was over the line, acording to two sources,
but that the threat of Trump administration retaliation really loomed large,
and this is like mobster government ship right like the
FCC share. Brendan Carr suggested that ABC's broadcast license would
(24:13):
be at risk because of these comments, and just like
we talked about it in an earlier episode about CBS,
it really seems like this is more about ABC's upcoming merger,
which they will need FCC approval to do so. Just
before ABC's announcement about Jimmy Kimmel, Nextstar Media Group said
that it's stations affiliated with ABC, We're going to be
preempting Kimmel's show for the foreseeable future because of his
(24:33):
statements around Kirk and MAGA.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
So just a little bit of context.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Nextstar is seeking FCC approval for its planned six point
two billion dollar merger with Tanga. If you've not heard
of those companies before, I also had not heard them before.
But they basically are these hugely influential media companies that
own hundreds of local TV stations and news outlets across
the country, and they basically decide what is on television
for hundreds of millions of Americans, and they're clearly willing
(25:01):
to make those decisions based on what Trump wants Americans
to watch. And so Trump signaled that targeting ABC and
Kimmel is far from the end. Like Trump said that
he wants the federal government to revoke the licenses of
any other broadcast television networks that are quote against him.
And so I think it's exactly what you said that.
I don't even think this is about Kirk. I think
(25:23):
this is about mobster tactics. I'm talking mobster tactics in
the sense that you have FCC Chairman car going on
a podcast before Kimmel was fired and saying, well, ABC
can either remove Kimmel the hard way or the easy
way to exert control and pressure over these companies. And
these companies are more than happy to roll over and
(25:44):
bend the knee and kiss the ring to Trump so
that it does not mess up their you know, plan,
their their merger plans to to sort of consolidate our
media system.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Well, this is also the reason that we UH originally
push forth the movement. And you just gave me an
idea to talk about this for a future show on
anti trust laws. Because if you have these major you know,
(26:13):
companies that are coming together, they're merging and all that stuff,
and they control basically the whole industry, there is very
limited competition, there's limited diversity in voices, and it's bad
for our economy and for our society.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
And you know, to.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
A lot of these companies, you know, this person, the
president is not even asking them or telling them do
stuff for a lot of people. Because we saw this,
even with the decision that was very narrow on diversity,
equity and inclusion at colleges, we begin to see colleges
instead We're like, well, i don't want to be out
of favor with the current administration, so I'm going to
(26:56):
do this right. So for a lot of the things
that are happening. It's not is this somebody is asking
directly asking them to doing.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
They're willingly doing it.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
To be in favor, right because they see how sort
of the mob sort of comes together and decide, you know,
this is the evil entity, this is who is preventing
America from being great. Meanwhile, your bread is still, the
fruit is still, the groceries are still you know.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Yeah, I mean this is my and I as an organizer,
I'm very curious for your thoughts. So it has not
stopped with Kimmel. And again I just want to make
it clear like I am no bit, like I'm Jenny.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Kimmel will be fine. This is not about his show,
This is not about him. He will be fine.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
But I think that the fact that we've spent so
much time talking about free speech, free speech, free speech,
and when we talked about it in the in the
context of like social media platforms, it's like, well, a
private social media platform kicking somebody off is.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Not really a free speech because they're not the government.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
But now we have the government, as you said, not
really asking or demanding, but making it clear that, oh,
we would like this to happen, and great television merger
deal you have here.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Wouldn't it be a shame if or something were to
happen to it?
Speaker 1 (28:20):
You know, those are the tactics and it again, I
don't think it's about Kirk because now they are going
after shows that have nothing. They had nothing remotely even
negative to say about Kirk. Not that Kimmel did either,
but you know what I mean. Seth Myers on his
show did a whole special segment in the wake of
Kirk where he talked about how horrible political violence is,
like exactly the kind of like respectful, you know, tone
(28:43):
that you would expect, and that didn't keep from from
today saying, oh, I want Seth Myers and Jimmy Fallon
take it off the air too, because he does doesn't
like these people, He just doesn't.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
He doesn't want these shows on the air.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
And so the idea that this is about Kirk is
just you can see that that's not true. They're talking
about taking the view off of the air. You know
a little bit of backstory here in broadcasting, they have
that rule, the equal opportunity rule, where broadcasters who feature
a political candidate on their show have to give equal
time to their rivals upon request, but certain types of
(29:14):
shows are exempt. Newscasts, interview programs, certain documentaries, things like that,
and late night talk shows are exempt. So just today,
FCC Chairman Brendan Carr wan a podcast and said, I'm
not so sure that the View is a bona fide
news program, and I think we should investigate and maybe
shut that show down so one we can see that
(29:34):
this is not about Charlie Kirk, but exactly what you said,
I'm I'm I this might sound pollyannish, but I think
that only this kind of stuff, I think is only
popular with the like most loyal of the loyal MAGA types.
We've already seen people like Bari Weiss and Tucker Carlson
kind of say like, hey, these are attacks on free speech.
(29:57):
I personally wonder if the Trump administration is sort of
over playing their hand here, because most people that I
know are worried about exactly what you said.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Grocery prices.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Everything is like people who say, oh, I voted for
the price of eggs, I voted for the price of groceries. Well,
your groceries are twice as expensive right now. Are you
really worried about what they're saying? On the view, Are
you really worried about what they're saying on what Jimmy
fucking Fallon has to say, Like I, maybe this is
being too optimistic. I genuinely think this is going to
backfire because I don't think that anybody but the most
(30:29):
loyal magotypes are seeing this and thinking, Oh, this is great,
this is what I really care about right now.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Well, I share your optimism that I hope so. But
here's something that I know I've shared previously. You know,
you may have heard people talk about this in terms
of population, in terms of people who believe in democracy,
believe in a prosperous future. There are more people that
believe in that than not believe in the retrenchment to
(30:56):
an America of a bygone era. And if you have
the diminishing population, there are two things you have to do. One,
you have to engage with young people in high schools
and colleges to build another generation or two that will
come behind the people that are already shrinking.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
I e.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Something like a talking point to USA. The second thing
is the base that you do have. You have to
keep them riled up and engage so that they are
always doing something engaged, talking turning out voting doing whatever right.
Meanwhile suppressing in a very deliberate way, making people feel
as your vote is not going to matter. And even
(31:37):
if you do vote, I'm going to create barriers like gerrymandering.
I'm going to change on the state level ID laws
and who's eligible to vote, making it difficult. So it's
a very structured piece. And so what I always argue,
at least for my strategy, I don't spend a lot
of time, you know, particularly online or in other places,
(32:01):
trying to convince people who have already made a decision
and who have already told people to kiss the ass. Right,
I'm not organizing with you, right, And so even though
I vote Democrat now and all, you know, every four
years the larger party wants to, you know, wove back
a certain voter of a certain persuasion, and I'm like,
(32:22):
I'm not organizing.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
There.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
There's a limit, there's a ceiling, right Whereas if we
go to the places that we're not talking to, that
we're not engaging, that we're not keeping up to date
and hearing from them and making sure that they are
involved in what's happening, you know, there is no ceiling
there because there's a greater population there.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
And so what I always.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Try to tell organizers is, don't spend so much of
your time combating what the other side is doing.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
And I don't mean like not litigating, agitating and all
that stuff.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
I mean you, you know, playing whack a mole on
social media, when you can be talking and engaging in
your community, when you can be building generations on college
campuses and high schools and things of that nature, helps
build the movement that we need. And right now, I
(33:17):
feel like a lot of people because we're stuck right.
And it's easy because you see all of this incoming
and you want to defend right. And there is a strategy,
a defense strategy on the show. Right now, I'm doing
what I call this porch Light series, And just imagine
you're leaving the light, the porch light on for democracy
(33:39):
and imagining what we want the next iteration of democracy
to be because this is falling right, and so we
have the power bridget. You have the power to remake
what our future democracy will look like. And so I
need you. While yes, we're filing lawsuits on free speech,
while we're pushing back on Jerrymander, while we're doing all
(33:59):
of that stuff, I also need you to imagine what
kind of society we need in the future and then
be prepared to build towards that.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
And so imagine holding the shield. And when you see
some of those.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
Old movies about the guard that's sent out in the
front and they have those big shields that are you know,
from the ground to the form. They're defending the folks
behind them, but they're also pushing forward, right, And so
we need to defend, yes, and particularly defend what's coming
behind us, so that they have a clear path to
(34:32):
strike and to you know, rebuild again. But at the
same time, we need to gain ground because it wasn't
we weren't satisfied with where we were, you know what
I mean, So we need to push and gain greater
ground as we're doing that as well. So I try
to encourage people in that. And I know it's only
a few of us, right, because everybody wants to be
(34:53):
angry and mad and you know, like in this or whatever,
and you know, calling people names and you know all
that kind of stuff. There's space for that, right, There
is space for that. But at the same time, we
have to be ready to strike when we need to
rebuild this democracy, and it doesn't start with just one
election of changing who would be in Congress or who
will be in the White House next. Is going to
(35:15):
take a generation or two to rebuild this democracy into
something that actually works.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Oof, you really said it.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
I have a This is not even was not even
on the agenda that I wanted to ask you about,
But you have such an encouraging worldview. My producer Mike
and I got into a long, kind of dark discussion
about this, and I want to see where you stand.
I completely agree with you. It's not about anyone election.
It's not about who's in the White House. It's so
it's a longer game than that. However, I have this deep,
(35:47):
deep foreboding feeling the way that the administration is moving
right now. In my opinion, they are not moving like
people who expect that they will not be in the
White House come four years from now. So I'm not like, well,
I feel like when I say that, people are like
they say it's I understand that sounds paranoid and crazy.
(36:10):
I guess, I guess that's what I'm saying. I understand,
But when it comes to like, like, what are you
thinking for midterms. What do you where do you think
we will be at?
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Well? The thing is is because I don't think of
the elections as I know we use the language the
most important election of our lifetime, but I don't think
of them as these you know, oh, we have this
one chance here and then if not, okay, well we
ain't got No, we.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Got eighteen months.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
We gotta wait for eighteen months so we can make
the change again. Right, Those are certainly markers that we
use along the way. But even in me taking home
of the NAACP in New York State conference, my plan
goes through twenty thirty two, the next level of redistricting, right,
and so you're thinking about, like, how are you trying
(36:55):
a path forward? So I would not be surprised if
everything that they're doing getting people comfortable and used to
having a militarized presence in cities and in places so
that they're also in place for election time, and so
that sort of discourages people from turning out or something else.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
The farius happen.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
We've had multiple instances in this country where this has
happened before. Again, I know people like to seize me
about being a nerd, but like there's a reason, like
we just keep repeating the same things over and over again.
So there's stuff for us to learn from that standpoint.
But what I think about is, as each new opportunity comes,
(37:38):
how can I push forward? How do I push democracy forward?
How do I ensure Because for me, my history tells
me that every fight, in every organizing piece that we
have done, has pushed this country to be more of
the democracy it's said it wants to be. And so
if you have that legacy as a collective people, as
(37:58):
collective organized as collective Americans. Right, So what is stopping
me from saying, all right, so he's in White House now,
so Congress is now or whatever? All right, gund what
ground can we gain after the midterms?
Speaker 2 (38:11):
All right?
Speaker 3 (38:11):
What ground are we gaining? You know, when we go
to milicipal elections again, what ground are we gaining? You know,
when we go to state elections again? What ground are
we gaining? You know, when the presidential election process comes
over again. And so if we think about it that
way rather than thinking about these elections, that's sort of
these one off opportunities to steer the car in a
(38:34):
different direction and think about how can I specifically you know,
just turn the wheel a little bit, you know, further
to that direction. Each opportunity we get, we can get
to the destination.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
I like that a lot.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
That that feels that help here, honestly hearing that help.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
More.
Speaker 4 (38:57):
After a quick break, let's get right back into it.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Well, speaking of militarization, I did want to talk about
this far right extremism study. So I don't think anybody
listening will be surprised to learn that white supremacist and
far right violence is the biggest source of domestic terrorism
in the US. It's just an empirical fact, and there
is overwhelming evidence for this fact. There's even a study
(39:35):
from the Department of Justice that illustrates it in detail
and states very clearly that white supremacist and far right
violence is the biggest source of terrorism and domestic violent
extremism in the US. But this week's Department of Justice
quietly pulled that study from their website. So this was
not some like random blog posts. A study came from
the National Institute of Justice, which is part of the DOJ.
Its authors are like highly respected academics. Up until at
(39:59):
least September twelfth, you could find it right on the
DJ's website and then poof, it was gone. Jason Palladino
from four four reported the takedown, who picked it up
after a grad student who researches online extremism spotted a
missing So now if you go to that page, there's
a bland little message that says, oh, the DOJ is
reviewing its websites and materials in accordance with Trump's recent
(40:20):
executive orders. I'm sure you'll remember that right after Trump
took office, he signed in that order banning government agencies
from using words like gender or DEI or diversity. And
it was this like very big censorship campaign that tied
up every federal agency, including NASA, in hours of like
scrubbing perfectly normal language off of their websites. And so,
(40:42):
guess not shocking to me that a study like this
would be targeted. One of the studies authors told for
four that he was not surprised, but he did point
out that the research is still out there. If you
want to read it, we will put it on in
the show notes. But I do think the timing around
us having this sort of national conversation about political violence.
I find the timing very curious when Trump is going
(41:06):
on TV and talking about how so called radical leftist
rhetoric is responsible for all political violence in this country.
You know, you know JD Vance saying that he's going
to use Kirk's death to crack down on LECTUS organizations,
and you know all of that. You have Elon Musk
jumping in on X saying that he's going to fix Grock,
Twitter's AI assistant because it cited research showing that right
(41:28):
wing violence is more common. You know, it's this this
real sort of getting in line behind this reality that
the research could not be clearer is reality.
Speaker 3 (41:39):
And it's also about new because there was previous reports
about the rise of white supremacy in the military, in
police departments. I remember this because I remember it came
out at around the time when we were at a
net roots conference talking to folks about it, because I
(41:59):
think it was also around the time when Black Lives
Matter that was sort of really.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Hot, and you know.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
People were engaged and no one was paying attention. From
that standpoint as well, it's never really died down.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
And I think you.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
And I around the same age where you remember when
there was like you know, the skinheads and the chat
rooms and stuff like that. I remember in college, you know,
where people were organized and then under you know, around
that in the early nineteen hundreds.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
As my daughter was did you know this is a
side note, did you ever see that tweet?
Speaker 1 (42:36):
It's like, I like, I told somebody I was working
with a child that I told them I was I
was born in the nineteen nineties.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
And she said, were you a slave? Yes?
Speaker 3 (42:46):
You know, my daughter does do that to my husband,
and I like, will tell something about history or whatever.
Like we were watching a documentary about voting rights and
stuff and they showed the march on the bridge and
she was like, Mom, were you there?
Speaker 1 (42:59):
I was like, not the march across the bridge. It's
like black and white pictures of like Malcolm X.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
And also there's mom who's like marble. She was like,
when you go to marches, And I'm just like, oh,
if your own kids. But yeah, so it's never really
you know, died down and people find and obviously we
have the proliferation of the Internet, which allows people to
find each other across the interwebs and sort of continue
(43:29):
to you know, go further down the rabbit hole and find,
you know, things that sort of the confirmation bias. I
think we talk about where it's like I'm going to
look for the things and I have cousins who do
the same thing, you know, and they're just only looking
for the knowledge and information that furthered their point. And
I'm like, dude, that's not research. You kinda take in
(43:52):
all of the context and all of the information and
then form, you know, an argument, and you can't. Obviously
we suffered from a lack of media a little as well.
We can't just take at face value. I mean, Bridget,
you can tell me something. I can listen to your
podcast more often than not.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
I have my phone. I'm like, she made that up.
Let me look at it.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
So you talk about the report. I'm like, she need
to send me this report. Let me see what she
tells me.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Yeah, this is why I love podcasts because you can
always just pause it and like google it.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
I don't know you, and I don't like you. It's
just like you just be saying randomness. Let me read
it myself. Why don't you have that curious nature?
Speaker 4 (44:28):
Right?
Speaker 3 (44:28):
Like why do you listen to someone And it's just like, oh,
well they said it on the internet, they said it
on the news, and I'll be like, who is they
and what evan is a information you don't remember doing
that as a child, you know, in class where it's
just like, you know, tell me the facts before you
tell me the you know your opinion on the thing,
Tell me what happened first. Are there multiple sources who
(44:48):
are confirmeding this and you can see that as something
not only from news and politics and medical and science information.
Yang Dane Dash on the Breakfast Club talk about.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
Like so ain't nobody did no due diligence. They just
running headlines that was that.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
I watched that interview that was That's a whole other thing.
I mean, I have many questions about what's up with him.
I just was left with many and many questions about
what is going on with him. But it's indicative of
where we are.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
Right.
Speaker 3 (45:18):
People will just say something. All of the stuff I say. Now,
you may clip it and put it on and people
are gonna be like, yep, that's true, and.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
I'm like, no, go read it and verify it and
it is wrong.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
Tell me it's wrong so that I can fix it
and sort of great like provide the greater context and
information Like that is the type of atmosphere we should
be able to live in without being like, let me
tell you the fifty two reasons why el Joy Williams
was wrong in this video. It's just like, Okay, you're
making this argument, but you use this fact, you use
this thing whatever. Actually, you know, go read when I
(45:50):
just say stuff, don't take my word for granted.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
Look it up. Read. Let's to read a book.
Speaker 4 (45:56):
Fucking read.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
I remember that. Yeah, we are in.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
I mean, I talk about this all the time, but
it's a real media literacy crisis.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
And I this is gonna sound random, but.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
I genuinely feel you could convince people of anything if
you put it.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
If you make an image.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
On canva in that bold black and white text, that
shade room text, you could say anything and people will
be like, wow, I saw it on an image that
had bold black and white text on the internet.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
They said it on the internet. My teenagers comes to this.
She was like, do you know she'll come in the kitchen?
Do you know that so and so and so? And
then my husband and I would be like who said it?
And she was like it was on TikTok and I'm like, okay,
but who said it? She was like on TikTok, I'm like,
but who on TikTok said it, what is it like
trying to get her in the habit of like digging
(46:45):
and trust in information. Did you look it up? Did
you verify it? Or is it just TikTok said, you know.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Right, it is, We're we're in. I mean, it's It's
something I really do worry about. Like the generation coming,
the younger generation, are they learning media literacy? Are they
learning how to be media critical the way that you know,
I was like a burnout in school and I still
remember how to do some of this stuff, and I
worry that that's not being passed down the same way
(47:11):
they are.
Speaker 3 (47:12):
Learning to be critical. What they're learning is, oh, this
is a right ring brag, Oh this is a left
ring read this is you know, so I can't trust
anything that this says because George Soros pays for it,
or I can't trust this because you know, ABC is
part of the sinclear you know what I mean? So
like it becomes that and that is the extent of
(47:35):
the general membershit. If Fox News didn't say it, it's
you know, MSNBC didn't say it. I had to take
myself off of watching MSNBC on a regular basis. Because
I'm just like, dang, ain't there some other news besides
these same eight stories all day?
Speaker 2 (47:50):
But let me pull my self.
Speaker 3 (47:52):
Back, you know, and I went back to reading news.
So I read news in the morning and they even
then listening to MPR through you know, at two different
points of the day, so I, you know, don't miss
like breaking news something or whatever like that. But going
back to reading is sort of using a different part
of my brain. And I do that even as someone
who consumes books and articles and magazines on a hyper
(48:15):
active rate.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
Yeah, So I did have a little bit of good
news that I wanted to share other and what has
otherwise been sort of a dark stretch, which is centers
Tammy Baldwin and Les Sammerkowski just came together on a
bipartisan bill to bring back the suicide prevention services for
LGBTQ plus youth that the Trump administration had cut earlier
this summer.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
So a little bit of backstory.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
In July, the administration pulled the plug on the LGBTQ
plus line with the nine to eight to eight Crisis Hotline.
So that was part of the hotline that connected queer
and trans youth in crisis with counselors that were specifically
trained on how to understand and talk about their experiences.
That loss was really devastating because we know that those
youths are already at a much higher rate for things
like suicide, and groups like the Trevor Project estimate that
(49:00):
nearly two million young people seriously consider suicide every year.
So this new bill would re establish those services and
then also make sure that they can't just be stripped
away again. It's being backed by the Trevor Project and
the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, and it's moving to
committee right now, and so I think this is very
important and I wanted to share it just as like
(49:21):
a little bit of good news. You know, when Trump
won the election in twenty twenty four, calls to the
Trevor Project hotline spiked seven hundred percent, which I think
really shows how much stress and fear and anxiety youth
are carrying right now and how much they need support.
And so it really it may be a small thing
in the scheme of things, but having going to be
(49:41):
a bipartisan effort to bring this back, I think is
at least something right that like we're doing something to
sort of support these youths.
Speaker 3 (49:49):
Yeah, and I think it was going to take not
only legislators, you know, whether they be in Congress, on
the state and local level, trying to make sure that
that there's infrastructure in place, but also in communities. Right,
and we have a track record of building the institution's need,
infrastructure we need during times of crisis, and so again
(50:14):
I want to empower people, you know, to create the
spaces that they need and that are needed in our communities.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
Absolutely. Okay, before I let you go, I have one
weird question for you. Oh have you ever gone to
your fridge and thought, wouldn't it be great if there
was an ad.
Speaker 2 (50:32):
Playing right now?
Speaker 1 (50:33):
Wouldn't it be cool if I could see a commercial
while I'm at my refrigerator.
Speaker 2 (50:35):
Have you ever thought this? No, Well, if you're.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
Listening and you're like that sounds great, I have news
for you that dream is a reality because Samsung and
now it is that they are putting advertisements in smart fridges.
The Verge reports that a software update is rolling out
to Samsung's Family Help refrigerators in the United States, where
they're going to be putting ads in fridges for the
first time. The Promotions and Curative advertisements are coming to Samsung,
(51:04):
even though back in April, The Verge talked to Samsung
and they said they had no plans to do so
right now. It is a pilot program. And this is
so wild to me. The Verge printed the statement that
Samsung made about this. They said that these ads are
meant to quote strengthen the value of owning a Samsung
smart fridge. Having there be advertisements that play on your
(51:25):
refrigerator is meant to strengthen the value of owning a fridge.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
Like that wild to me.
Speaker 3 (51:31):
Nah man, And I so as like, I have Samsung
products in my kitchen right, like, you know, it's a
brand that you know.
Speaker 2 (51:41):
I'm pretty loyal to.
Speaker 3 (51:42):
And I remember when we bought the house and we're
getting like our fridge and sort of all that stuff.
And we looked at the Samsung series with the screen
and my husband was like, yeah, when you walk by naked,
like would like they have a camera facing you. You know,
there's some like geek guy in a data center looking
at you.
Speaker 2 (52:02):
Love Vibe Maggie with the milk in your hand. And
I was like, all right, never mind, yes.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
Well, this gives me a reason to quote my favorite
blue sky post from this week from Kashana. I like
my Fridges, dumb, young and full of plumps.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
I loved love that. Also, you are such a delight.
I have to tell you.
Speaker 1 (52:23):
I started this conversation feeling, as I said, very down
and just not feeling good about where we were at.
But I'm leaving feeling a lot more agency. I know
that you are curating these conversations on Sunday Civics really
helping people understand our democracy, our government and maybe making
them feel a little more empowered to make change. Where
can people follow you tell us about the show, like
(52:45):
how can people be involved in what you've got going on?
Speaker 3 (52:48):
Well, thank you and I'm glad that you do feel
some greater agency and hope about what we can build
together in the future. So you can always go to
Sunday Civics dot org and get the latest episodes. They
air Sunday mornings at nine am. So for the faith people,
you on your way to church or maybe you on
your way back from early service, you can listen and
(53:11):
you can also download it on podcasts, Apple, Spotify, all
of those. From that standpoint, and as I mentioned right now,
I'm in the series between you know, I started the
first Sunday in September through to December what I call
the Porch Flight series, where we're leaving the lighte on
democracy and I'm asking you to imagine what democracy do
(53:32):
you want to fight for and that we want in
our future and giving you the agency and the tools
to believe that we have the possible, we have the
power to actually create that. So join us on Sunday
mornings in Sunday Civics classroom because right now we're outside
on a porch.
Speaker 2 (53:51):
Oh well, they're going to leave the light on for you, Aljoie.
Speaker 1 (53:54):
Thank you so much for being here. Thanks to all
of you for listening. I will see you on the Internet.
Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or
just want to say hi. You can reach us at
Hello at tangody dot com. You can also find transcripts
for today's episode at tenggody dot com. There Are No
(54:15):
Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod.
It's a production of iHeartRadio, an Unbossed creative. Jonathan Strickland
is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and
sound engineer. Michael Almado is our contributing producer. I'm your host,
Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate
and review.
Speaker 4 (54:31):
Us on Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 1 (54:33):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,
Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts,
There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production
of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this
is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Welcome back
to There Are No Girls on the Internet, a podcast
where we explore the intersect and the technology, social media
and identity. And this is another installment of our weekly
(00:27):
news roundup where we dig into some of the stories
that you might have missed online so you don't have to.
I am so pleased to be joined by this week's
guest co host, el Joy Williams, President of the New
York NAACP and host of the Sunday Civic Show on
sirius XM.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
El Joy.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Thank you so much for being here. I know it
is a weird, tough time.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
That is an understatement, bridge, but thank you so much
for inviting me, for us to talk trash about what's
happening in the world.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yeah, I mean we were talking before we started recording.
Just it just feels like a lot like generally when
I do these episodes, I'm having a cocktail.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
It's the end of a long Thursday.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
I'm sort of looking back on the week, and this
I just it doesn't things don't feel good.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Things don't feel right, Like I'll give it to y'all straight.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
It really feels like things have escalated quite quickly in
the wake of Charlie Kirk's murder. I will say I
have personally, I don't think I've ever seen anything quite
like this.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
What what have you been sensing around this?
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Well, I would say the same thing while I was
prepared for it, like you knew things were coming, and
but you don't know how things are going to be executed,
how people are going to take advantage of different moments
of different things, and really it is opportunistic in a
lot of spaces, and so On the one hand, I
(01:50):
feel like people are acting as if things are normal,
and I just want to go around and shake everyone.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
I was at a dinner.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Where being honored in like the whole room. There's one
of those dinners where like nobody pays attention to your phone.
Everybody's just talking and networking and dealing, and like they
had Cheryl swoops up there getting an award and like
nobody was paying attention. I was like, what is happening?
When I got up there, I was like, for the
four or five people who are listening to me, This
(02:21):
is indicative of what's happening out in the world, where
there is a set of people who are just like, oh,
this is just you know, normal, and I'm going to
continue my deals and my networking and things of that nature.
And there's only a handful of people paying attention, and
you have to capture.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Those who those few who are paying attention.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
We have to get rid of the moniker that we
need to get the masses and need to get everybody.
It's just like, no, just speak to the people that's
paying attention, builds and organize with them, and then eventually
that'll get larger and larger. So that's what it feels like.
It feels like you're trying to have some sense of normalcy,
particularly for me. I have kids and right so I
(03:03):
don't I can't walk around a house like the sky's falling,
but at the same time being able to clearly see
what's happening around you and develop plans to respond accordingly.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Spoken like a true organizer. This is why I'm glad
I have you on the show this week. I want
to ask you something that I hope is not too personal.
I don't have kids, my senses people that do have kids.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
It kind of forces you to.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Stay tethered to some sense of hope, to some sense
that something better is on the horizon. I feel, you know,
not having children myself, but I have a lot of
young people in my life and nieces and nephews and
people that I young, people that I care about.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
But there's something.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
I think, there's something about being a parent in this
time where you kind of have to force yourself, no
matter how dark things seem, to think there's something better
on the horizon for my kid.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Do you do you ever get that sense? Absolutely?
Speaker 3 (04:00):
There are all these obviously memes on TikTok and stuff
like that where there's like the mom having the nervous
breakdown and the kid comes and like gives them the
juice box to open for them, and there's just like, oh,
I open the juice box and then continue to slide
down the wall. So we experience that on a regular basis, right,
whether it's your own I mean, imagine coming home from
(04:21):
a hard day or like I said this, you know
past week has been you know, slammed me. I have
four kids, the youngest one being one years old, and
so when I'm laying on the couch and they come home,
they're jumping on top of me doing whatever. I can't
be like, don't be happy. You see what Trump is doing,
so DC like, you don't know what I mean. And
so it's how do you have the conversations the older
(04:45):
ones who are ten and sixteen, having conversations with them
because I don't want them to be completely disconnected from
what's happening in the world, and so talking to them
about the things that are happening in an appropriate manner
so that they're not walking around scared, but that also
they're aware. And then for me, as someone who's a
(05:05):
civics enthusiast, I always like to whether it's you know,
the adults who listen to the show I do Sunday Civics,
or even the young people I engage with. I give
them the hope that they have the power and the
ability to change things that they don't. You know, this
is not just stuff that's happening to you, but you
have an opportunity, and what tools do you have in
(05:28):
your toolbox to respond to what is happening around you.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
That's so important and I think especially right now when
we're having conversations about young people and this feeling of
nihilism and feeling you know, which I understand. But I
think the anecdote to that is offering what you're offering
that you actually do have agency, you can make change. Yeah,
being raised by an organizer, I think you're probably raising
young folks who feel quite engaged and quite empowered to
(05:54):
make change in their communities.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Absolutely, And I have a ten year old who quite
offen in his organized and something something in a classroom
or something. Although she called me old today, so I'm
not gonna speak pop. Well, wasn't being born in the
early nineteen hundreds.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Oh my god?
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Sometimes I will be so humbled, like kids will humble
you so quickly, it's it really is ridiculous. Absolutely, Well,
let's talk more about this, because even though I feel
like I've done I've done quite a bit of research,
and I still don't feel confident saying, you know, in
terms of what happened with Charlie Kirk, that we know
exactly a.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Clear motive, like don't. I don't think we're there yet.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
But that has not stopped the Trump administration and their
allies from really using this to crack down on a
lot of free expression and speech. We talked about this
in our recent episode that I recorded the day that
Charlie Kirk was killed, but we've really seen it ramp
up since then. The Washington Post opinion columnist Karenatia was
fired for essentiallyvoing Kirk.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
On social media.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Will actually hear from Karen Natia in her own words
and an upcoming episode, so stay tuned for that. It
does sound to me like they were kind of angling
to get her out of the Post ever since Amazon's
Jeff Bezos bought the paper and really announced it as
a much more kind of conservative, Trump friendly slant. But
so it sounds like since that change, they have been
(07:23):
sort of angling to get her out of the Post.
But since she was fired, there are no black columnists
at the Post.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
She was the last one.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
In a substack post, she wrote quote, as a columnist,
I used my voice to defend freedom and democracy, challenge power,
and reflect on culture and politics with honesty and conviction.
Now I am the one being silenced for doing my job.
On Blue Sky. In the aftermath of the horrific shootings
in Utah and Colorado, I condemned America's acceptance of political
violence and criticized its ritualized responses, the hollow, cliched calls
(07:54):
for thoughts and prayers, and this is not who we
are that normalize gun violence and absolve white perpetrators, especially
while nothing is done to curb deaths. I expressed sadness
and fear for America. My journalistic and moral values for
balance compelled me to condemn violence and murder without engaging
in an excessive false mourning for a man who routinely
attacked black women as a group, put academics in danger
(08:15):
by putting them on watch lists, claimed falsely that black
people were better off in the era of Jim Crow,
and said that the Civil Rights Act was a mistake,
and favorably reviewed a book that called liberals unhumans in
a sense. Deleted post, a user accused me of supporting
violence and fascism. I made clear that not performing over
the top grief for white men who espoused violence was
not the same as endorsing violence against them. My only
(08:38):
direct reference to Kirk was one post his own words
on the record, so that first of all her words,
I think, I think she's a hell of a writer,
but I think that bit is the substance of why
the post says that they fired her. So essentially, she
posted on Blue Sky a quote that she attributed to Kirk, quote,
black women do not have the brain to be taken seriously.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
You have to go steal a white persons slot.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Now there is a small quibble here in that bit
when we actually played Kirk's an audio from Kirk's show
in our episode about Charlie Kirk. But the quibble is
that they're saying, oh, well, he was talking about a
handful of specific black women Michelle Obama, Joy Reid, then
Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee, Supreme Court Justice Katanji Brown Jackson,
(09:24):
like he was like naming specific women. So my senses
that in order to justify her firing, they're saying, oh, well,
she misquoted Kirk because she's making it sound like he
was talking about black women writ large. But really he
was talking about these specific black women, which, in my opinion,
I just don't I.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Think gets over small like small linguage, right, because it's
not as if this one individual statement was taken out
of context. There is a pattern in practice of this
person stating inflammatory things that are gear towards a particular people,
ethnic group, organizations, and things of that nature. So it's
(10:06):
not as if a journalist is sort of mischaracterizing this person,
but that it is part of the pattern and practice
of the rhetoric that they were doing on a daily basis.
And you know, I think for a large part, as
you mentioned, for a lot of things that are happening again,
I believe people are just taking the moments and the
(10:27):
opportunities right using it as an excuse. The reason why
I want to fire Lisa Cook is also because I
want control over the Federal Reserve Board. The reason why
you know, I want to fire all of these people
in particular agencies is because I want to take over
the money that is in there, and also your contracts,
private contracts to the people that I owe money to
(10:50):
for private prisons. So I think for a lot of it,
it is taking the opportunity and rolling people up right
to again, which we do very well in American history.
We do very well, particularly wealthy people. And I'm talking
about uber wealthy. I'm not talking about y'all with like
a million dollars, right, I'm talking to uber wealthy where
(11:13):
they point the finger at other people, right, they say, oh,
you can't afford a bread. You know why that is
is because of the people coming across the border. Oh
you can't get a job. That's because you know, you
have all of these people with visus coming over from
Sauth Korea. Right, So it continues to point the finger
that the issue that you are most pressed about, the
(11:35):
pocketbook issues that people keep saying that they point back
to the people as opposed to the folks who are
in power and making the decisions and continuing to make
the money. We've done that time and time again. When
blacks and whites after reconstruction are rebuilding cities and towns,
and you have poor white folks and poor black folks
(11:57):
coming together building in fighting back for workers' rights, voting rights,
and things of that nature, there is a split. They're
telling the poor white people. Well, we'll give you an
extra two dollars, we'll give you an extra five dollars.
You'll be in charge. You'll be management over these people. Right.
You can't view yourself as the same, you know, as
(12:18):
these black people who were formally enslaved goodness.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
No.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Right, Then, fast.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Forward when people are organizing in the union movement and
there again telling white people who now we consider white,
but telling Irish people and Italians and others who were
organizing again with black people, with Asian people, with Mexican people,
for workers' rights and things of that nature, and saying,
you don't want to be like them, you want to
be white over here.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Right.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
So we have a pattern in practice in this country
when I say we right of coring to the wealthy
people and believing their argument on who's responsible for our
present condition, and it's a distraction from the peace people
who continue to make money.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Absolutely fucking correct, and it's so effective. Sometimes I can't
believe how effective it is. I can't believe that this
that this old. I mean, I guess that's why it's
an old, tried and true tactic. I can't believe that
here we are in twenty twenty five that same thing
that was being used to divide us decades ago is
still effective. I cannot believe that it's still something that
(13:24):
we have to contend with. But I guess that's why
it's an old testnut is because it works, right, It.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Is because of an unhealed wound of race and slavery
and not really you know, just think about here in
the state of New York, where we're dealing with, you know,
a mayor's race and a governor in New York State,
who seemingly are in the same tent. You'll have to
bring me back and have a whole nother you know,
(13:51):
listen to my tirade on why there shouldn't be just
two parties because there is no possible way that AOC
and Hillary Clinton should be in the same political party.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
But I digress.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
But having the conversation even in New York about raising
taxes on people that are making six hundred seven hundred
million dollars right, people are like, no, I can't raise taxes.
All the wealthy people will leave. So my first reaction
is like, okay, bye, they have the wherewithal the goal
wherever they need to go to continue to make money
(14:23):
and you know, feed their families and things of that nature.
But those of us right who are working class, barely
making it, a lot of people didn't leave because they
have no resources in things to leave to go to
a different to go to a different place. So my
first reaction is by the second thing is a lot
of them probably already take advantage of shelling their money
(14:46):
around and things like that, so they play less taxes
to begin with, and so instead of cutting the programs
that are going to be much needed, particularly in this
time where the federal government is cutting all different departments
from healthcare, which is a huge concern for us here
in the state of New York, education, even snap benefits
and all of those things. Just then say to the
(15:07):
people that are hanging on, who need the affordability to
begin with, who need the relief to begin with, to say, oh, well,
we're getting less money, so you're gonna have to do
more with less. Well, ni motherfucker's over here with like
millions of dollars and they're just.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Like, oh, sorry for you must be hard, be.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Hard, right, I'm going to come like it doesn't make
any sense. And particularly while it's a small percentage a
majority of people that are in because I don't want
to castigate all wealthy people like this, because some of
there are a lot of people is just like, yeah,
I'll pay more so that I can have a functioning
infrastructure in this state and in this city to continue
(15:48):
to make the money that I need to make, because
they have understood that it's not about, you know, putting
money in a system that doesn't get back, is putting
money in the system so that we can all benefit. Right,
I put money and I pay taxes so that I
can have the infrastructure of roads. I put money and
I put taxes in so that I can have the
infrastructure of public schools. I put money in and I
(16:10):
pay my taxes so that I can have health care.
And then in the instance where okay, I have health
care and I can afford it, you can take care
of other people who may need it, which benefits us all.
And so people thinking that if we do something over
here that it literally takes something out of your pocket again,
is a story and a narrative that we have been
(16:33):
led to believe.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
And it's a lie. It's absolutely a lie.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
And what you just described is community is a society.
It's how we all live together. But there are people
that hear what you just described and think it's awful,
and then it's just so funny to me.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
How I mean, this is such a tangent.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
But you know, hearing about how the Trump administration is
thinking about bailing out farmers.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Socialism, Yes, who's the aid?
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Is socialism and evil and horrible? And whose aid is? Oh, well,
that's just American, that's a bailout, right, Like who decides
we believe in socialism.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
We believe in socialism for banks, We believe in socialism
for farmers. We believe in socialism for private prisons, right
like we believe in socialism when it's making money for
other people.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
You know. The other thing I would say is this.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
Nature of this question. If you're talking to people who,
although you don't see them much anymore, the people that
have the don't Tread on Me T shirts.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
I wonder where they went.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
I'm so curious, just like did they stop printing them?
Is it like rush order tees and custom Inc? Not
printing the T shirts anymore? But they often talk about
like the federal government being too big. And then this
is also where me as a nerd comes in, right
because I'm like, compare the size of the federal government
and the population with the founding of this country too. Now, yes,
(17:58):
the federal government has to be bigger because we got
more motherfucking people, Like so there's more people to.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
Take care of.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Like that, Like it's just common sense.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
We have more people, Oh so we need more money
in order to we actually expanded because of the founder
of the country. We didn't have as much physical right
place that we had in the founder of the country.
So going all through the territories and building infrastructure and
schools and roads and healthcare infrastructure and all that kind
of stuff takes more money because we got more people
(18:31):
and we actually have more land to take care of.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
So it's common sense. Common sense is not so common anymore.
That is really how I'm feeling.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
Let's take a quick break at our back.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
So we're talking about all of these different crackdowns on
free speech in the wake of Charlie Kirk's murder, even
though it kind of seems like none of this is
actually about Kirk. It's an excuse, right like that, like
this is the reason that they're using to do what
they've always wanted to do.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Unfortunately, I think people take and I think this is
the nature of politics in general. People use different moments
to as an opportunity. Oh, we have the opportunity to
spread this message a little bit wider, to engage, to organize,
and it's done to Faressley, and it's done from an
(19:39):
organizing perspective as well. Just think about how we as
organizers use moments, right. You know, there was during the
George Floyd.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Eruption.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
People took the moment to you know, address legislation that
have been pending for some time, you know, the movements
that you know we're dying. And now you've got new people,
you know, who are aware and energized and educated, and
so you're going to fill them in on that. And
so I think what is difficult, though, what I call
(20:11):
the nefarious thing is taken advantage of someone losing their life.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Now I don't.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Believe like I'm personally, you know, because I know that
they're seeking the death penalty for this person or whatever.
You know, my faith doesn't allow me, you know, my
faith tells me that we are not embody to take
anybody's life, right, and so, you know, there are ways
we can't be the most advanced creatures in society and
(20:37):
still not figure out a way to punish people for
these things, and to take advantage of this moment when
someone lost their life, no matter how you know, vile
his rhetoric and everything may be. I don't wish people
to die, you know what I mean, I don't in
particularly not in the manner in which we are. And
(20:58):
so instead of taking that moment, instead of taking that
moment to address the pervasive violence, and particularly gun violence
in our country, right that we use that as an
opportunity for government. Because here's what's happening. Government is actually
limiting speech, which is the very thing that the Constitution says,
(21:19):
me telling you bridget you can't say that, you know,
or something like that, Like, that's not what the constitution
it says. It's saying the government cannot abridge your free
speech right. And so the government, federal agencies, federal staff
and appointed you know, agency directors and things of that nature,
(21:42):
telling people that you can't say that or things of
that nature is the very definition of the federal government
limiting the speech. Now we also say what you can
say the thing, it doesn't prevent the repercussions you know
that you may experience. So sure you can me didn't work,
might get pushed.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
In a face like that's the reconvession you got.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Like from that standpoint, you know what I mean. So
I think, you know, again, I think the taking of
opportunity and not addressing the root cause, right, because again
people are taking advantage or taking the opportunity to further
their old narratives rather than using the opportunity to address
(22:27):
what is really the culprit, which is the pervasive gun
violence in our communities.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
I want to talk about that because when I saw
that Karen was getting fired from the post, I was like, oh, well,
black women, we are so often the sort of canaries
in a coal mine. You know, we've seen black women
after a black women being targeted and fired by the
Trump administration, black women like Joy Reid and Jameel Hill
being fired from media jobs, are pushed out, you know,
a black woman is fired or silenced or or centered
(22:55):
off the internet, and then it's like crickets and then
it's like, Okay, no one's gonna do anything.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Oh Jimmy cam was fired and the people got statements
in like exactly, So let's talk about that.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
So I've seen a lot of reporting suggesting that Kimmel
was taken off the air because of his comments about Kirk,
But to me, that's not even totally correct. I will
play you the actual thing that he said about Kirk.
Speaker 5 (23:19):
We hit some new lows over the weekend with the
Magga Gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered
Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them and
everything they can to score political points from it.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
So, to me, the way that this has been reported
is like, oh, he said horrible things about Charlie Kirk.
He wasn't being respectful. He's actually talking about exactly what
you were talking about. He's talking about a critique about
how people are using Charlie Kirk's murder to further their
own narrative, to push their own agenda, to exploit. Essentially,
(23:52):
that's what he's talking about. And according to Rolling Stone,
multiple ABC executives felt that Kimmel had not even actually
said anything that was over the line, acording to two sources,
but that the threat of Trump administration retaliation really loomed large,
and this is like mobster government ship right like the
FCC share. Brendan Carr suggested that ABC's broadcast license would
(24:13):
be at risk because of these comments, and just like
we talked about it in an earlier episode about CBS,
it really seems like this is more about ABC's upcoming merger,
which they will need FCC approval to do so. Just
before ABC's announcement about Jimmy Kimmel, Nextstar Media Group said
that it's stations affiliated with ABC, We're going to be
preempting Kimmel's show for the foreseeable future because of his
(24:33):
statements around Kirk and MAGA.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
So just a little bit of context.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Nextstar is seeking FCC approval for its planned six point
two billion dollar merger with Tanga. If you've not heard
of those companies before, I also had not heard them before.
But they basically are these hugely influential media companies that
own hundreds of local TV stations and news outlets across
the country, and they basically decide what is on television
for hundreds of millions of Americans, and they're clearly willing
(25:01):
to make those decisions based on what Trump wants Americans
to watch. And so Trump signaled that targeting ABC and
Kimmel is far from the end. Like Trump said that
he wants the federal government to revoke the licenses of
any other broadcast television networks that are quote against him.
And so I think it's exactly what you said that.
I don't even think this is about Kirk. I think
(25:23):
this is about mobster tactics. I'm talking mobster tactics in
the sense that you have FCC Chairman car going on
a podcast before Kimmel was fired and saying, well, ABC
can either remove Kimmel the hard way or the easy
way to exert control and pressure over these companies. And
these companies are more than happy to roll over and
(25:44):
bend the knee and kiss the ring to Trump so
that it does not mess up their you know, plan,
their their merger plans to to sort of consolidate our
media system.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Well, this is also the reason that we UH originally
push forth the movement. And you just gave me an
idea to talk about this for a future show on
anti trust laws. Because if you have these major you know,
(26:13):
companies that are coming together, they're merging and all that stuff,
and they control basically the whole industry, there is very
limited competition, there's limited diversity in voices, and it's bad
for our economy and for our society.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
And you know, to.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
A lot of these companies, you know, this person, the
president is not even asking them or telling them do
stuff for a lot of people. Because we saw this,
even with the decision that was very narrow on diversity,
equity and inclusion at colleges, we begin to see colleges
instead We're like, well, i don't want to be out
of favor with the current administration, so I'm going to
(26:56):
do this right. So for a lot of the things
that are happening. It's not is this somebody is asking
directly asking them to doing.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
They're willingly doing it.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
To be in favor, right because they see how sort
of the mob sort of comes together and decide, you know,
this is the evil entity, this is who is preventing
America from being great. Meanwhile, your bread is still, the
fruit is still, the groceries are still you know.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Yeah, I mean this is my and I as an organizer,
I'm very curious for your thoughts. So it has not
stopped with Kimmel. And again I just want to make
it clear like I am no bit, like I'm Jenny.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Kimmel will be fine. This is not about his show,
This is not about him. He will be fine.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
But I think that the fact that we've spent so
much time talking about free speech, free speech, free speech,
and when we talked about it in the in the
context of like social media platforms, it's like, well, a
private social media platform kicking somebody off is.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Not really a free speech because they're not the government.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
But now we have the government, as you said, not
really asking or demanding, but making it clear that, oh,
we would like this to happen, and great television merger
deal you have here.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Wouldn't it be a shame if or something were to
happen to it?
Speaker 1 (28:20):
You know, those are the tactics and it again, I
don't think it's about Kirk because now they are going
after shows that have nothing. They had nothing remotely even
negative to say about Kirk. Not that Kimmel did either,
but you know what I mean. Seth Myers on his
show did a whole special segment in the wake of
Kirk where he talked about how horrible political violence is,
like exactly the kind of like respectful, you know, tone
(28:43):
that you would expect, and that didn't keep from from
today saying, oh, I want Seth Myers and Jimmy Fallon
take it off the air too, because he does doesn't
like these people, He just doesn't.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
He doesn't want these shows on the air.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
And so the idea that this is about Kirk is
just you can see that that's not true. They're talking
about taking the view off of the air. You know
a little bit of backstory here in broadcasting, they have
that rule, the equal opportunity rule, where broadcasters who feature
a political candidate on their show have to give equal
time to their rivals upon request, but certain types of
(29:14):
shows are exempt. Newscasts, interview programs, certain documentaries, things like that,
and late night talk shows are exempt. So just today,
FCC Chairman Brendan Carr wan a podcast and said, I'm
not so sure that the View is a bona fide
news program, and I think we should investigate and maybe
shut that show down so one we can see that
(29:34):
this is not about Charlie Kirk, but exactly what you said,
I'm I'm I this might sound pollyannish, but I think
that only this kind of stuff, I think is only
popular with the like most loyal of the loyal MAGA types.
We've already seen people like Bari Weiss and Tucker Carlson
kind of say like, hey, these are attacks on free speech.
(29:57):
I personally wonder if the Trump administration is sort of
over playing their hand here, because most people that I
know are worried about exactly what you said.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Grocery prices.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Everything is like people who say, oh, I voted for
the price of eggs, I voted for the price of groceries. Well,
your groceries are twice as expensive right now. Are you
really worried about what they're saying? On the view, Are
you really worried about what they're saying on what Jimmy
fucking Fallon has to say, Like I, maybe this is
being too optimistic. I genuinely think this is going to
backfire because I don't think that anybody but the most
(30:29):
loyal magotypes are seeing this and thinking, Oh, this is great,
this is what I really care about right now.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Well, I share your optimism that I hope so. But
here's something that I know I've shared previously. You know,
you may have heard people talk about this in terms
of population, in terms of people who believe in democracy,
believe in a prosperous future. There are more people that
believe in that than not believe in the retrenchment to
(30:56):
an America of a bygone era. And if you have
the diminishing population, there are two things you have to do. One,
you have to engage with young people in high schools
and colleges to build another generation or two that will
come behind the people that are already shrinking.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
I e.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Something like a talking point to USA. The second thing
is the base that you do have. You have to
keep them riled up and engage so that they are
always doing something engaged, talking turning out voting doing whatever right.
Meanwhile suppressing in a very deliberate way, making people feel
as your vote is not going to matter. And even
(31:37):
if you do vote, I'm going to create barriers like gerrymandering.
I'm going to change on the state level ID laws
and who's eligible to vote, making it difficult. So it's
a very structured piece. And so what I always argue,
at least for my strategy, I don't spend a lot
of time, you know, particularly online or in other places,
(32:01):
trying to convince people who have already made a decision
and who have already told people to kiss the ass. Right,
I'm not organizing with you, right, And so even though
I vote Democrat now and all, you know, every four
years the larger party wants to, you know, wove back
a certain voter of a certain persuasion, and I'm like,
(32:22):
I'm not organizing.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
There.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
There's a limit, there's a ceiling, right Whereas if we
go to the places that we're not talking to, that
we're not engaging, that we're not keeping up to date
and hearing from them and making sure that they are
involved in what's happening, you know, there is no ceiling
there because there's a greater population there.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
And so what I always.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Try to tell organizers is, don't spend so much of
your time combating what the other side is doing.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
And I don't mean like not litigating, agitating and all
that stuff.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
I mean you, you know, playing whack a mole on
social media, when you can be talking and engaging in
your community, when you can be building generations on college
campuses and high schools and things of that nature, helps
build the movement that we need. And right now, I
(33:17):
feel like a lot of people because we're stuck right.
And it's easy because you see all of this incoming
and you want to defend right. And there is a strategy,
a defense strategy on the show. Right now, I'm doing
what I call this porch Light series, And just imagine
you're leaving the light, the porch light on for democracy
(33:39):
and imagining what we want the next iteration of democracy
to be because this is falling right, and so we
have the power bridget. You have the power to remake
what our future democracy will look like. And so I
need you. While yes, we're filing lawsuits on free speech,
while we're pushing back on Jerrymander, while we're doing all
(33:59):
of that stuff, I also need you to imagine what
kind of society we need in the future and then
be prepared to build towards that.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
And so imagine holding the shield. And when you see
some of those.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
Old movies about the guard that's sent out in the
front and they have those big shields that are you know,
from the ground to the form. They're defending the folks
behind them, but they're also pushing forward, right, And so
we need to defend, yes, and particularly defend what's coming
behind us, so that they have a clear path to
(34:32):
strike and to you know, rebuild again. But at the
same time, we need to gain ground because it wasn't
we weren't satisfied with where we were, you know what
I mean, So we need to push and gain greater
ground as we're doing that as well. So I try
to encourage people in that. And I know it's only
a few of us, right, because everybody wants to be
(34:53):
angry and mad and you know, like in this or whatever,
and you know, calling people names and you know all
that kind of stuff. There's space for that, right, There
is space for that. But at the same time, we
have to be ready to strike when we need to
rebuild this democracy, and it doesn't start with just one
election of changing who would be in Congress or who
will be in the White House next. Is going to
(35:15):
take a generation or two to rebuild this democracy into
something that actually works.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Oof, you really said it.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
I have a This is not even was not even
on the agenda that I wanted to ask you about,
But you have such an encouraging worldview. My producer Mike
and I got into a long, kind of dark discussion
about this, and I want to see where you stand.
I completely agree with you. It's not about anyone election.
It's not about who's in the White House. It's so
it's a longer game than that. However, I have this deep,
(35:47):
deep foreboding feeling the way that the administration is moving
right now. In my opinion, they are not moving like
people who expect that they will not be in the
White House come four years from now. So I'm not like, well,
I feel like when I say that, people are like
they say it's I understand that sounds paranoid and crazy.
(36:10):
I guess, I guess that's what I'm saying. I understand,
But when it comes to like, like, what are you
thinking for midterms. What do you where do you think
we will be at?
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Well? The thing is is because I don't think of
the elections as I know we use the language the
most important election of our lifetime, but I don't think
of them as these you know, oh, we have this
one chance here and then if not, okay, well we
ain't got No, we.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Got eighteen months.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
We gotta wait for eighteen months so we can make
the change again. Right, Those are certainly markers that we
use along the way. But even in me taking home
of the NAACP in New York State conference, my plan
goes through twenty thirty two, the next level of redistricting, right,
and so you're thinking about, like, how are you trying
(36:55):
a path forward? So I would not be surprised if
everything that they're doing getting people comfortable and used to
having a militarized presence in cities and in places so
that they're also in place for election time, and so
that sort of discourages people from turning out or something else.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
The farius happen.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
We've had multiple instances in this country where this has
happened before. Again, I know people like to seize me
about being a nerd, but like there's a reason, like
we just keep repeating the same things over and over again.
So there's stuff for us to learn from that standpoint.
But what I think about is, as each new opportunity comes,
(37:38):
how can I push forward? How do I push democracy forward?
How do I ensure Because for me, my history tells
me that every fight, in every organizing piece that we
have done, has pushed this country to be more of
the democracy it's said it wants to be. And so
if you have that legacy as a collective people, as
(37:58):
collective organized as collective Americans. Right, So what is stopping
me from saying, all right, so he's in White House now,
so Congress is now or whatever? All right, gund what
ground can we gain after the midterms?
Speaker 2 (38:11):
All right?
Speaker 3 (38:11):
What ground are we gaining? You know, when we go
to milicipal elections again, what ground are we gaining? You know,
when we go to state elections again? What ground are
we gaining? You know, when the presidential election process comes
over again. And so if we think about it that
way rather than thinking about these elections, that's sort of
these one off opportunities to steer the car in a
(38:34):
different direction and think about how can I specifically you know,
just turn the wheel a little bit, you know, further
to that direction. Each opportunity we get, we can get
to the destination.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
I like that a lot.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
That that feels that help here, honestly hearing that help.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
More.
Speaker 4 (38:57):
After a quick break, let's get right back into it.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Well, speaking of militarization, I did want to talk about
this far right extremism study. So I don't think anybody
listening will be surprised to learn that white supremacist and
far right violence is the biggest source of domestic terrorism
in the US. It's just an empirical fact, and there
is overwhelming evidence for this fact. There's even a study
(39:35):
from the Department of Justice that illustrates it in detail
and states very clearly that white supremacist and far right
violence is the biggest source of terrorism and domestic violent
extremism in the US. But this week's Department of Justice
quietly pulled that study from their website. So this was
not some like random blog posts. A study came from
the National Institute of Justice, which is part of the DOJ.
Its authors are like highly respected academics. Up until at
(39:59):
least September twelfth, you could find it right on the
DJ's website and then poof, it was gone. Jason Palladino
from four four reported the takedown, who picked it up
after a grad student who researches online extremism spotted a
missing So now if you go to that page, there's
a bland little message that says, oh, the DOJ is
reviewing its websites and materials in accordance with Trump's recent
(40:20):
executive orders. I'm sure you'll remember that right after Trump
took office, he signed in that order banning government agencies
from using words like gender or DEI or diversity. And
it was this like very big censorship campaign that tied
up every federal agency, including NASA, in hours of like
scrubbing perfectly normal language off of their websites. And so,
(40:42):
guess not shocking to me that a study like this
would be targeted. One of the studies authors told for
four that he was not surprised, but he did point
out that the research is still out there. If you
want to read it, we will put it on in
the show notes. But I do think the timing around
us having this sort of national conversation about political violence.
I find the timing very curious when Trump is going
(41:06):
on TV and talking about how so called radical leftist
rhetoric is responsible for all political violence in this country.
You know, you know JD Vance saying that he's going
to use Kirk's death to crack down on LECTUS organizations,
and you know all of that. You have Elon Musk
jumping in on X saying that he's going to fix Grock,
Twitter's AI assistant because it cited research showing that right
(41:28):
wing violence is more common. You know, it's this this
real sort of getting in line behind this reality that
the research could not be clearer is reality.
Speaker 3 (41:39):
And it's also about new because there was previous reports
about the rise of white supremacy in the military, in
police departments. I remember this because I remember it came
out at around the time when we were at a
net roots conference talking to folks about it, because I
(41:59):
think it was also around the time when Black Lives
Matter that was sort of really.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Hot, and you know.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
People were engaged and no one was paying attention. From
that standpoint as well, it's never really died down.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
And I think you.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
And I around the same age where you remember when
there was like you know, the skinheads and the chat
rooms and stuff like that. I remember in college, you know,
where people were organized and then under you know, around
that in the early nineteen hundreds.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
As my daughter was did you know this is a
side note, did you ever see that tweet?
Speaker 1 (42:36):
It's like, I like, I told somebody I was working
with a child that I told them I was I
was born in the nineteen nineties.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
And she said, were you a slave? Yes?
Speaker 3 (42:46):
You know, my daughter does do that to my husband,
and I like, will tell something about history or whatever.
Like we were watching a documentary about voting rights and
stuff and they showed the march on the bridge and
she was like, Mom, were you there?
Speaker 1 (42:59):
I was like, not the march across the bridge. It's
like black and white pictures of like Malcolm X.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
And also there's mom who's like marble. She was like,
when you go to marches, And I'm just like, oh,
if your own kids. But yeah, so it's never really
you know, died down and people find and obviously we
have the proliferation of the Internet, which allows people to
find each other across the interwebs and sort of continue
(43:29):
to you know, go further down the rabbit hole and find,
you know, things that sort of the confirmation bias. I
think we talk about where it's like I'm going to
look for the things and I have cousins who do
the same thing, you know, and they're just only looking
for the knowledge and information that furthered their point. And
I'm like, dude, that's not research. You kinda take in
(43:52):
all of the context and all of the information and
then form, you know, an argument, and you can't. Obviously
we suffered from a lack of media a little as well.
We can't just take at face value. I mean, Bridget,
you can tell me something. I can listen to your
podcast more often than not.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
I have my phone. I'm like, she made that up.
Let me look at it.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
So you talk about the report. I'm like, she need
to send me this report. Let me see what she
tells me.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Yeah, this is why I love podcasts because you can
always just pause it and like google it.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
I don't know you, and I don't like you. It's
just like you just be saying randomness. Let me read
it myself. Why don't you have that curious nature?
Speaker 4 (44:28):
Right?
Speaker 3 (44:28):
Like why do you listen to someone And it's just like, oh,
well they said it on the internet, they said it
on the news, and I'll be like, who is they
and what evan is a information you don't remember doing
that as a child, you know, in class where it's
just like, you know, tell me the facts before you
tell me the you know your opinion on the thing,
Tell me what happened first. Are there multiple sources who
(44:48):
are confirmeding this and you can see that as something
not only from news and politics and medical and science information.
Yang Dane Dash on the Breakfast Club talk about.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
Like so ain't nobody did no due diligence. They just
running headlines that was that.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
I watched that interview that was That's a whole other thing.
I mean, I have many questions about what's up with him.
I just was left with many and many questions about
what is going on with him. But it's indicative of
where we are.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
Right.
Speaker 3 (45:18):
People will just say something. All of the stuff I say. Now,
you may clip it and put it on and people
are gonna be like, yep, that's true, and.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
I'm like, no, go read it and verify it and
it is wrong.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
Tell me it's wrong so that I can fix it
and sort of great like provide the greater context and
information Like that is the type of atmosphere we should
be able to live in without being like, let me
tell you the fifty two reasons why el Joy Williams
was wrong in this video. It's just like, Okay, you're
making this argument, but you use this fact, you use
this thing whatever. Actually, you know, go read when I
(45:50):
just say stuff, don't take my word for granted.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
Look it up. Read. Let's to read a book.
Speaker 4 (45:56):
Fucking read.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
I remember that. Yeah, we are in.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
I mean, I talk about this all the time, but
it's a real media literacy crisis.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
And I this is gonna sound random, but.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
I genuinely feel you could convince people of anything if
you put it.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
If you make an image.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
On canva in that bold black and white text, that
shade room text, you could say anything and people will
be like, wow, I saw it on an image that
had bold black and white text on the internet.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
They said it on the internet. My teenagers comes to this.
She was like, do you know she'll come in the kitchen?
Do you know that so and so and so? And
then my husband and I would be like who said it?
And she was like it was on TikTok and I'm like, okay,
but who said it? She was like on TikTok, I'm like,
but who on TikTok said it, what is it like
trying to get her in the habit of like digging
(46:45):
and trust in information. Did you look it up? Did
you verify it? Or is it just TikTok said, you know.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Right, it is, We're we're in. I mean, it's It's
something I really do worry about. Like the generation coming,
the younger generation, are they learning media literacy? Are they
learning how to be media critical the way that you know,
I was like a burnout in school and I still
remember how to do some of this stuff, and I
worry that that's not being passed down the same way
(47:11):
they are.
Speaker 3 (47:12):
Learning to be critical. What they're learning is, oh, this
is a right ring brag, Oh this is a left
ring read this is you know, so I can't trust
anything that this says because George Soros pays for it,
or I can't trust this because you know, ABC is
part of the sinclear you know what I mean? So
like it becomes that and that is the extent of
(47:35):
the general membershit. If Fox News didn't say it, it's
you know, MSNBC didn't say it. I had to take
myself off of watching MSNBC on a regular basis. Because
I'm just like, dang, ain't there some other news besides
these same eight stories all day?
Speaker 2 (47:50):
But let me pull my self.
Speaker 3 (47:52):
Back, you know, and I went back to reading news.
So I read news in the morning and they even
then listening to MPR through you know, at two different
points of the day, so I, you know, don't miss
like breaking news something or whatever like that. But going
back to reading is sort of using a different part
of my brain. And I do that even as someone
who consumes books and articles and magazines on a hyper
(48:15):
active rate.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
Yeah, So I did have a little bit of good
news that I wanted to share other and what has
otherwise been sort of a dark stretch, which is centers
Tammy Baldwin and Les Sammerkowski just came together on a
bipartisan bill to bring back the suicide prevention services for
LGBTQ plus youth that the Trump administration had cut earlier
this summer.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
So a little bit of backstory.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
In July, the administration pulled the plug on the LGBTQ
plus line with the nine to eight to eight Crisis Hotline.
So that was part of the hotline that connected queer
and trans youth in crisis with counselors that were specifically
trained on how to understand and talk about their experiences.
That loss was really devastating because we know that those
youths are already at a much higher rate for things
like suicide, and groups like the Trevor Project estimate that
(49:00):
nearly two million young people seriously consider suicide every year.
So this new bill would re establish those services and
then also make sure that they can't just be stripped
away again. It's being backed by the Trevor Project and
the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, and it's moving to
committee right now, and so I think this is very
important and I wanted to share it just as like
(49:21):
a little bit of good news. You know, when Trump
won the election in twenty twenty four, calls to the
Trevor Project hotline spiked seven hundred percent, which I think
really shows how much stress and fear and anxiety youth
are carrying right now and how much they need support.
And so it really it may be a small thing
in the scheme of things, but having going to be
(49:41):
a bipartisan effort to bring this back, I think is
at least something right that like we're doing something to
sort of support these youths.
Speaker 3 (49:49):
Yeah, and I think it was going to take not
only legislators, you know, whether they be in Congress, on
the state and local level, trying to make sure that
that there's infrastructure in place, but also in communities. Right,
and we have a track record of building the institution's need,
infrastructure we need during times of crisis, and so again
(50:14):
I want to empower people, you know, to create the
spaces that they need and that are needed in our communities.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
Absolutely. Okay, before I let you go, I have one
weird question for you. Oh have you ever gone to
your fridge and thought, wouldn't it be great if there
was an ad.
Speaker 2 (50:32):
Playing right now?
Speaker 1 (50:33):
Wouldn't it be cool if I could see a commercial
while I'm at my refrigerator.
Speaker 2 (50:35):
Have you ever thought this? No, Well, if you're.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
Listening and you're like that sounds great, I have news
for you that dream is a reality because Samsung and
now it is that they are putting advertisements in smart fridges.
The Verge reports that a software update is rolling out
to Samsung's Family Help refrigerators in the United States, where
they're going to be putting ads in fridges for the
first time. The Promotions and Curative advertisements are coming to Samsung,
(51:04):
even though back in April, The Verge talked to Samsung
and they said they had no plans to do so
right now. It is a pilot program. And this is
so wild to me. The Verge printed the statement that
Samsung made about this. They said that these ads are
meant to quote strengthen the value of owning a Samsung
smart fridge. Having there be advertisements that play on your
(51:25):
refrigerator is meant to strengthen the value of owning a fridge.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
Like that wild to me.
Speaker 3 (51:31):
Nah man, And I so as like, I have Samsung
products in my kitchen right, like, you know, it's a
brand that you know.
Speaker 2 (51:41):
I'm pretty loyal to.
Speaker 3 (51:42):
And I remember when we bought the house and we're
getting like our fridge and sort of all that stuff.
And we looked at the Samsung series with the screen
and my husband was like, yeah, when you walk by naked,
like would like they have a camera facing you. You know,
there's some like geek guy in a data center looking
at you.
Speaker 2 (52:02):
Love Vibe Maggie with the milk in your hand. And
I was like, all right, never mind, yes.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
Well, this gives me a reason to quote my favorite
blue sky post from this week from Kashana. I like
my Fridges, dumb, young and full of plumps.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
I loved love that. Also, you are such a delight.
I have to tell you.
Speaker 1 (52:23):
I started this conversation feeling, as I said, very down
and just not feeling good about where we were at.
But I'm leaving feeling a lot more agency. I know
that you are curating these conversations on Sunday Civics really
helping people understand our democracy, our government and maybe making
them feel a little more empowered to make change. Where
can people follow you tell us about the show, like
(52:45):
how can people be involved in what you've got going on?
Speaker 3 (52:48):
Well, thank you and I'm glad that you do feel
some greater agency and hope about what we can build
together in the future. So you can always go to
Sunday Civics dot org and get the latest episodes. They
air Sunday mornings at nine am. So for the faith people,
you on your way to church or maybe you on
your way back from early service, you can listen and
(53:11):
you can also download it on podcasts, Apple, Spotify, all
of those. From that standpoint, and as I mentioned right now,
I'm in the series between you know, I started the
first Sunday in September through to December what I call
the Porch Flight series, where we're leaving the lighte on
democracy and I'm asking you to imagine what democracy do
(53:32):
you want to fight for and that we want in
our future and giving you the agency and the tools
to believe that we have the possible, we have the
power to actually create that. So join us on Sunday
mornings in Sunday Civics classroom because right now we're outside
on a porch.
Speaker 2 (53:51):
Oh well, they're going to leave the light on for you, Aljoie.
Speaker 1 (53:54):
Thank you so much for being here. Thanks to all
of you for listening. I will see you on the Internet.
Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or
just want to say hi. You can reach us at
Hello at tangody dot com. You can also find transcripts
for today's episode at tenggody dot com. There Are No
(54:15):
Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod.
It's a production of iHeartRadio, an Unbossed creative. Jonathan Strickland
is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and
sound engineer. Michael Almado is our contributing producer. I'm your host,
Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate
and review.
Speaker 4 (54:31):
Us on Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 1 (54:33):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,
Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts,
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