February 3, 2022 • 37 mins
Disinformation researcher Abbie Richards explains the big issues with Spotify platforming Joe Rogan’s misinformation.
We’ll be back for our new season on March 1st!
Support the show by buying merch: https://www.tangoti.com/store
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production
of I Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget Todd
and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.
As a podcaster who makes a podcast about misinformation, conspiracy theories,
extremism and how they intact marginalized people, I feel like
(00:24):
it's time to weigh in on Joe Rogan. So, in
case you don't know, Joe Rogan's podcast, The Joe Rogan
Experience has a nasty habit of platforming misinformation and bigotry.
Rogan and his guests have amplified lives about transpokes, women,
climate change. The list goes on, but right now his
misleading and incorrect statements about COVID are what's got him
in the spotlight. Rogan brought on serial misinformer Robert Malone,
(00:49):
who was already suspended from Twitter for spreading inaccurate information
about COVID, to promote the quote Defeat the Mandate rally
in Washington, d C. Last month. Rogan discouraged young people
getting vaccinated, which is especially troubling given the average age
of his listenership as twenty four years old, and, according
to data from Washington State, unvaccinated twelves to thirty four
year old are five times more likely to be hospitalized
(01:12):
with COVID than those who are fully vaccinated. Now, hundreds
of doctors and public health professionals have published an open
letter to Spotify, who exclusively publishes Joe Rogan's podcast, calling
the streaming company out for the way the podcast they
produce has spread COVID misinformation, and asking Spotify to establish
a clear and public policy to moderate misinformation on its platform.
(01:34):
India are Roxanne Gage, Joni Mitchell, and others have joined
Neil Young in taking their content off Spotify. In response,
Spotify released a pretty weak clarification of their misinformation moderation policy,
which doesn't really do much to address the kind of
misinformation that Rogan spreads on his podcast. In a statement,
Spotify CEO said, it is important to me that we
(01:54):
don't take on the position of being a content sensor,
also making sure that there are rules in place and
consequent is for those who violate them. Now, in that statement,
Spotify makes it sound like Rogan it's just another podcaster
on their platform, but he's not. Spotify exclusively produces rogan
show and pays him of reported a hundred million dollars
a year to do so. So what happens when someone
(02:15):
has paid a hundred million dollars to spread conspiracy theories, misinformation, bigotry,
and lies. My name is Abby Richards and I'm a
misinformation researchers slash tick talker. Abby Richards is a disinformation researcher,
science communicator, and a friend of the show, and she
says that Spotify's misinformation policy leaves a lot to be desired. So, Abby,
(02:38):
I'm so glad that you were able to join me today. Um,
I have gone kind of a while without talking about
Joe Rogan, and I think it's time to talk about
Joe Rogan. It's time. It's time. Well, first of all,
just as someone who is a misinformation researcher, what are
your thoughts on his show, what he does, like, what
are your initial thoughts? You know, I don't love it.
(03:00):
I'm not like, I'm not a j R. E bro Uh.
I have just witnessed like way too much misinformation and
general kind of bigotry and hatred on that platform to
then go ahead and be like, oh, I just love
how he interviews people so personally. Yeah, I'm not I'm
(03:23):
not a huge fan are you no, It's so funny.
A few months ago, before this UM Spotify issue was
really in the news, I was at a hotel bar
with my producer Mike, and we were I don't remember
where we were coming back from, but we were getting
a drink and there was this very obnoxious guy at
the bar, like drunk, loud, obnoxious, and he was trying
(03:44):
to really engage us in conversation and we were sort
of not having it. And I think for some reason,
we were talking about Burning Man, Mike and I and
this guy was like, oh, hey, I have a buddy
who goes to Burning Man with with Joe Rogan every year.
And we looked at each other and Mike just went, so,
why would you tell us this had no idea that
(04:06):
we also have a podcast basically, which I feel like
it is a little bit of like an anti Joe Rogan,
like a podcast where we talk about the dangers of
things like misinformation, conspiracy theories, extremism, Like he could not
have picked a worse a worst way to try to
impress us. Oh yeah, I mean your podcast is literally
there are no girls on the Internet, and Joe Rogan
(04:27):
is literally we have no girls on the show yes
exactly exactly. So, you know, what did you think about
seeing all of these high profile folks from Neil Young, India,
ari Um now Rock Sandgate removing their content from Spotify
in reaction to their you know, really unwillingness to do
anything about the misinformation that he spread so often. Yeah,
(04:48):
I mean I think it's I think it's great. I
think it's been surprisingly powerful. I wasn't necessarily expecting it
to have as big of like a ripple in the
in the water as it did. What were your thoughts
on there? I'm not even gonna say that they renewed
like it just seemed like they were saying, like, oh,
(05:10):
we do have a covidness information policy, but it wasn't
for me. I didn't really feel like it was the
kind of policy that you would expect a platform of
that size to be putting out, you know, in now
the what second year of a pandemic. Yeah, you would
expect it to be a little bit more coherent and
thought through. And and the fact that it took all
of this pressure to get the tiniest bit of transparency
(05:34):
into the existing policy that they had is uh. It
says quite a bit about how reluctant. These platforms are
to be transparent about their policies. Uh. And then so
really what they did is they published their existing policies,
which I'm going to also say, like, weren't they were
(05:54):
quite lenient, um to the point where it seems as
though you're able to say that like the back scenes
caused death, but just as long as you don't say
that they were designed to do so. And you know,
they don't really cover wearing masks, and uh, they don't
cover a large large range of medical misinformation that Joe
(06:15):
Rogan has spread on his show. Great to see the transparency,
but I would like to see more coherent and thought
out policies. And then in addition to that, they just
like said they were going to put content warnings on misinformation,
which isn't really shown to be effective. Like I don't
consider that, uh a solid strategy to colm that misinformation,
(06:41):
especially not when you're literally funding the misinformation yourself. Again,
it seems to illustrate to me that Spotify is kind
of hoping that folks won't ask too many questions about
their the nature of the relationship they have with Joe Rogan,
because I feel like it's one thing to put content.
It's one thing for Twitter to put a content warning
(07:02):
on a user's tweet, right to say like, oh, well
this so you know this tweet contains an accurate information.
It's another thing for Spotify to invite Joe Rogan to
exclusively make content with them, pay him handsomely for that content,
be the only place where you can find that content,
and then kind of pretend like, oh, we can just
(07:22):
put a content warning on it. That's the that's the
as far as we can go in terms of dealing
with it. Like that seems like the bare minimum, to
the point where it's almost meaningless. It's almost nothing, And
you know, I do think that they're kind of hoping
that people won't ask too many questions so that they
can continue to treat Joe Rogan like any other individual
(07:44):
content creator that they have on their platform, as opposed
to what they actually are, which is like his publisher.
I think, Yeah, did you see the leaked speech UM
published a few hours ago where the CEO went into
a whole spiel about whether or not they are a
publisher or a platform, And it's like, I mean, even
(08:10):
as if you were just a platform, you still should
have some responsibility for what is on your platform, but
you also are specifically funding, like sponsoring this particular content
on your platform, So you might not have editorial control,
but you still have some liability there. I think that
the statement they released was very much like an attempt
(08:33):
to make the problem go away, just really hoping that
this in action looked enough like action that everybody would
wave their hands and be like, oh, that's fine. I
guess I have seen a lot of toothless tech double
speak in my day that really means nothing. That was
(08:53):
really that was like the Mona Lisa of toothless tech
meaningless double speak. Pr right, Like, let's say a bunch
of things. Let's let's sort of say like we're listening,
we hear you definitely make a nod to free speech,
say like make a nod de fact that you're not
gonna cave to other people's voices. It really hit all
the marks, and I do I agree with you. I
(09:14):
think that they're kind of hoping that this problem will
sort of go away on its own, or that, like
Joe Rogan put out that video statement, they put out
a statement. I think that they're hoping that that's going
to be enough. Um, you know, the Rock has chimed
in and said, like perfectly put, like, let's time to
do on your show soon, Joe Rogan. Um. And I
think it's just I think for me, it's really depressing
(09:35):
because I believe that Spotify is re establishing a precedent,
and that precedent is that if you are like, there
is a market for lies, Like if you tell lies
and spread misinformation and extremism, there is a market for that.
And so I think the question we need to ask
ourselves it's like, are we comfortable with our media our
(09:57):
media landscape really handsome, rewarding and amplifying lies for profit.
And I think it's it's done so much to make
our our media is so much more toxic. Absolutely, And
you think about how Joe Rogan really promotes controversial figures,
and of course he claims he doesn't intend to do that,
(10:17):
but like controversy brings in eyes and ears, and like
it's quite clear that Rogan has a history of platforming
people who promote misinformation, promote bigotry, climate change denial, a
lot of transphobia, like so much transphobia. Uh, it's and
(10:43):
it's not just like allowed, it's being paid for like
for exclusivity, like Spotify was like, we want this and
we want you to be special so that you attract
more users to our platform. Like they he serves a
role there to bring more users to them and make
money for them, and they are fundamentally profiting off of
(11:04):
that kind of controversy. And I'm very frustrated. It is frustrating,
And you know, you you brought brought up a good point. Obviously,
the conversation that's really been in the news right now
is COVID asum COVID misinformation. But I guess my question is,
I have listened to a lot of Joe Rogan show.
(11:25):
I know that the transphobia is is so alarming, Like
the amount of lies about trans people that that him
and his guest trafficking is pretty appolloged. Uh, the climate denialism,
you know, he he did apologize for this, but when
he said that leftists were the ones setting wildfires out
in the west, right right, like things like this, I
(11:47):
guess my question is, why do you think that it's
the COVID misinformation specifically that really sticks when we talk
about this issue. But the lies that he tells about
trans people, the lies that he tells about climate don't
seem to stick quite as much because, in my perspective,
those those things are also medical misinformation and public health misinformation. Yeah,
(12:08):
I mean, I think there's a lot of systemic inequality
behind it. I think it's I'm happy to see that
we are having this public conversation about his medical misinformation
on the platform. UM, But it is fundamentally really limited
to COVID, And it does seem like people are more
(12:34):
motivated by the pandemic than necessarily racial racial issues or
trans issues, UM. And I think that speaks to the
what the public fundamentally cares about. And I hate that
we are up against so much when it comes to
inequality that we really have to when when it comes
(12:57):
to an issue that pertains to marginalize people, we really
have to shout for people to hear us. You really
have to scream for people to hear us. And I
think that COVID. You know, I think it's easier for
some folks to to to see a demonstrable untruth about COVID,
like oh, young people shouldn't get vaccinated and say, oh,
that's a problem. But not but see the way that
(13:19):
Joe Rogan will tell a demonstrable untruth about trans people,
like he has said that trans people do I experience
real discrimination, they bring it on themselves. That's demonstrably untrue.
I think that there's something that makes it easier for
folks to respond when it's about COVID, and it's just
easier for it to go unchecked, unacknowledged, or for maybe
people to say like, oh, that's just his opinion, or
(13:41):
you know, I think that it's it's It shows how
much further we have to go in terms of helping
people understand that misinformation is often identity based, that's often
racialized and gendered in this way, and it's it's really
really harmful, like real world harm, the same way that
COVID health misinformation is yea, and I mean, and we
think of how a lot of this criticism started was
(14:03):
with like doctors and scientists and science educators who already
had existing platforms and are already you know, exist within
this realm of privilege and having their voices elevated, which
is great. I'm happy to have doctors and scientists voices elevated,
but I do think it speaks to just how their
(14:26):
voices are treated as you know, more worthy of attention
than necessarily uh, large groups of marginalized people who have
been speaking out against Joe Rogan for ages. Now, oh
that's such a good point. Let's a quick break out
(14:58):
our back feminists, black women, queer folks, trans folks. They
have been saying for the longest time, and also me
personally as a podcaster, I've been saying like this, Joe
Rogan's like his stick is harmful, and I feel like
people didn't listen and it's Taylor's oldest time, like folks
don't listen until it's kind of everyone's problem. That is
(15:20):
something that we talk about extensively on this show. Um.
But I also think there's this idea that I think
that Joe Rogan really perpetuates that he's just asking questions
or you know, he says like, oh, I'm not a doctor,
don't take my advice, or you know, my guest says this,
and I don't know enough to push back, and as
someone who makes a podcast, I know that that's not true. Right,
(15:41):
Like I'm not an expert on a lot of things,
but I decide who comes onto my show. I decide,
you know, who to platform, and it's just it's just
this kind of feigning of ignorance that I feel is
so powerful but so frustrating. Yeah. I go back and
forth on whether it's famed or whether he just really
(16:04):
is like that much of just an idiot who has
just fallen upwards and upwards and upwards into having podcasts
where for some reason people listen to him talk for
three hours And it's like, I can't really tell um
(16:25):
because it's such a perfect excuse to be like, well,
I didn't know, you know, how was I going to
know that when I had this guest on that I
booked and supposedly should have researched what kinds of things
they were going to say before platforming them, and you know,
maybe listen to the edit of my podcast before I
posted it. Uh, all of those very basic things that
(16:50):
I do for my TikTok's I would expect him to
do for his world's largest podcast, But apparently it hasn't
occurred to him that he has any any responsibility. Yes,
you just put that so wonderfully. I think that's one
(17:11):
of the reasons. I mean, I don't want to sound
like I'm just crapping on another podcaster, but it's it's something.
It's very frustrating to watch. And I know that so
many people who make content, whether it's TikTok's like you
or podcasts like me, they put so much effort and
craft and care into it, and so hearing like, well,
I don't even listen to them. I don't even prepare.
I don't know what I'm gonna say before until I
(17:33):
say it's like, wow, we really are having different experiences
when it comes to creating or content. Something fundamentally different
is happening here. A part of the reason why I
almost by his act of just like really being that
ignorant is I think that like he is somebody who
just would never have ever been affected by this sort
(17:58):
of misinformation and hate it that he allows on his platform,
and therefore he doesn't have any understanding of why he
needs to have responsibility like I could. I could maybe
understand if he really smokes as much weak as he
does seem to like, how he could end up in
(18:19):
that position of just like I don't know, I just
like listen, I just listen to other people talk and
post it. But like, you have a responsibility, and if
you don't, if you refuse to take that responsibility seriously,
then like why do you deserve to have the platform
that you do? That's such a good question, and and
platforms they they do come like even if you have
(18:42):
a small platform, it comes with responsibility. And I think
that's something I've been so frustrated about. In this conversation, um,
I was doing like a news interview about Joe Rogan
and Spotify, and it was a little bit of an
adversarial like the interviewer definitely was more team Rogan than
I was, and he kept asking like, isn't this censorship,
Like isn't this cancel culture? And I kind of couldn't
(19:04):
get my head around how we got to a place
where asking for someone that has a massive platform that
has listened to by millions of people, that has paid
hundreds a hundred million dollars to make to make something,
asking for really basic fact checking or basic you know,
editorial standards is equated to censorship, Like I don't know
(19:24):
if you read Rock sand Gay's amazing piece in The
New York Times today about why she's pulling her podcast
from Spotify, she said, there's a difference between censorship and curation.
When we are not free to express ourselves, we can
be thrown in jail or even lose our lives speaking
for speaking freely. That is censorship. When we say as
a society that bigotry and misinformation are unacceptable, that people
who spouse these ideas don't deserve access to significant platforms,
(19:47):
that's curation. We are expressing our caste and moral discernment
and saying what we find acceptable and what we do not.
And I feel like we've kind of lost the thread
in a way that really benefits who spread misinformation. That
the second that you're like, wait, well we should doesn't
we should expect better than lies and bigotry and extremism.
(20:10):
Immediately there's going to be acquire people who are like
that censorship, that's canceled culture. That's bad. Yeah. I am
so glad that you read that quote, because if you didn't,
I would have. It was such a good piece, and
I really highly recommend that everybody co read it. Um.
It's it's really interesting that this has it. It's really interesting,
(20:33):
but not at all surprising that this has been turned
into some effort to cancel Joe Rogan when that was
never really what anyone has asked for. UM. First of all,
define cancel. I can't, UM, But like we add like
we were asking for misinformation policies and for those to
(20:55):
be implemented and transparent on the platform. Um and like yes,
Joe Rogan's podcast should also follow those policies. I don't
think anybody is saying like he should not be allowed
to ever speak again, he should be thrown in prison,
Like nobody's saying that, Like I don't think anyone even
(21:18):
has a problem with his stupid getting high and having
comedy podcasts like if I'm yeah, I'm also pro getting high,
Like if you want to get high and talk to
your dudes about wrestling, Joe, go ahead, Like I just
don't need you high. Speculating about the vaccines being gene therapy,
(21:41):
like just just I'm not saying, don't have a career
doing this. It seems like for some reason some people
find you very entertaining, so go ahead. It's it's just
the the lies and the hatred that I feel like
we could avoid. I think Roxane as Piece put it
really well that people people who are trafficking lies and hatred.
(22:04):
I don't love it, but okay, I think those those
people are always going to be there. They shouldn't be
the loudest voices in the room. They shouldn't be the
most well paid voices in the room. They shouldn't be
the most amplified voices in the room. And when they are,
I feel like that's when we really have a problem
because it just takes up so much oxygen from the room,
Like we don't really have the space to have the substitutive,
(22:26):
thoughtful conversations that we could be having when the person
with the loudest megaphone is just screaming nonsense. Yeah, and
and like you're never gonna be able to make every
shitty opinion go away. Um, but that those shitty opinions
don't necessarily like deserve giant platforms and to have access
(22:52):
to like every year in the country, especially like for
people who are vulnerable to those sorts of like sorts
of biggest for you in misinformation if you are somebody
who's vulnerable to that, and then you listen to Joe
Rogan because maybe you really look up to him, like
and then you're fed lies and racism and transphobia, Like
(23:14):
he's that that's predatory more after a quick break, let's
get right back into it. We can't deny that he
(23:37):
people like him he's very popular. He has a huge audience,
and I think part of the reason why that is
it's sort of the same old story when it comes
to misinformation. I think that bad actors and people who
traffic and misinformation they find groups of people who feel
who are or feel overlooked or or underserved. And so
(23:59):
whether it's a Banish speaking population that doesn't have enough
Spanish speaking news outlets, and so bad actors know like, oh,
we will give you lots of news, it will just
be lies. I think that Joe Rogan maybe really taps
into a group of younger males who do feel legitimately
unseen and unlistened to and like no one is speaking
(24:20):
to them. And so I think that he has been
able to shine a spotlight on these folks and make
them feel seen and heard and validated in ways maybe
other media sources, like legitimately maybe are not And so
I wonder, like, like, what do you think about that,
Like why do you think he has such a big listenership,
Why do you think he's so popular, and what does
it say about our media climate. I definitely agree that
(24:42):
he must be serving some like he's serving and meeting
some emotional and psychological need for this largely male audience
who listened to him. Um. I think that from when
I've listened to podcast, there does seem to be this
(25:02):
kind of this focus on masculinity, either implicity, implicitly or explicitly.
Masculinity is often uh highlighted. There's a lot of gender anxiety.
I think that when SIS men are confronted with the
(25:22):
reality that gender isn't as binary as they were told
it was, that there can be a lot of backlash
and that they will just kind of try and root
even deeper into the gender binary and for quote traditional masculinity.
So I see that a lot in his podcast, and
I do think that he's meeting that need right Like
(25:45):
he's just he's just like your funny older brother who's
like getting high and having chats with other funny guys. Um,
So he's got to be meeting their needs in that way.
We had an interview with Foma Zoma, who used to
reprep Interest and a instrumental person in terms of getting
Pinterest to ban medical misinformation. Something that you told me
(26:06):
that really stuck with me is that nine times out
of ten people who were pushing medical misinformation on Pinterest
we're selling something, whether it was a supplement or something
some sort of like alternative something, and they were like
making money. And so I know that Joe Rogan owns
a supplement company, and his supplement company advertises on the podcast.
When you go to the Joe Rogan Reddit, people are
(26:26):
asking a lot about it. I feel like it is
obviously in his best interest to have a generation of
young men feel intense anxiety about what it means to
be a man masculinity, and then also sell supplements that
purport to make you more virile, make you more masculine,
make you more of a man, whatever that means. I
(26:48):
think it's a very clear, really it's a very clear
relationship to me why someone would be interested in having
their listenership feel anxious about the sort of gender issues
you were just speaking to. And it always bumps me
out because I always just wonder what if that same
generation of young men were had access to a platform
(27:12):
that was as popular, as accessible as I guess, engaging
as they find Joe Rogan, but instead of leaning into
lies and anxieties around gender, they were being given thoughtful, substitutive, interesting,
you know, opinions and takes about gender. That did that?
Did we're not also trafficking and lies and extremism? What
(27:33):
if that was what they were being said with, would
they feel the need to buy to buy supplements? What
they feel the like? Would they feel as anxious? Would that?
Would that nourish them more? Right? Like I I guess
when I think about this information, I think about the
massive sort of missed opportunity to really nourish people with
good content and good media, because I truly believe that
(27:55):
everybody deserves good media, everybody deserves the truth, everybody deserves accuracy.
And it makes me sad that so many people they
choose something else. Yeah, not only are they and they
don't choose it like they not only are they choosing it,
but it's being really promoted to them and fed to them.
(28:16):
As you know, this is the most popular, so it
must be good. And I think so much disinformation. I mean,
as you said, like they're they're selling something, And a
big tactic of encouraging people to buy something is to
make them feel as though they are they need it, right,
like they are wanting they are lacking something, And one
(28:39):
way to do that is make them feel anxious, Right,
they're lacking masculinity. Uh, they don't have enough vitamin whatever
they're they're selling on that particular episode. Um. And they
we see it with like Fox News right, like they
prey on vulnerable populations, highlight these deep anxieties that they have,
(29:06):
and then feed them disinformation just to like increase those anxieties.
It doesn't help for our polarization problem at all either,
Like it's an absolute mess, but people profit off of it. Yeah,
I think that's something that really gets to me that
it absolutely adds to polarization. And we have so many
big issues facing us as people as a society, and
(29:28):
if we're all being fed extremism and lies and pull
and like more and more polarized and people are profiting
off of that, we're never going to be able to
come together with like a subsidutive conversation about these issues.
We're always going to remain polarized. And I, you know,
I believe that we are better when we are coming
to the table with accurate information to have to base
(29:49):
our conversations on. And it makes like there are people
out there that are profiting on us not doing that
absolutely well, because the whole idea is to uphold the
status quo and they're profiting off of people being unhappy
in the status quo or you know, not understanding why
they don't have the wealth that they were promised they
(30:12):
one day would, or the power or happiness that they
were promised that they one day would. Um. And none
of this media empowers anybody in their lives, Like fundamentally,
it's there to increase anxiety and to keep them powerless
in the face of tremendous inequality, Like this is not
(30:36):
helping to unite the lower class. What Yeah, I love
how you put that. It is not it's media that
is not empowering. And yeah, I feel like everybody deserves
to see themselves reflected in media. Everybody deserves to feel
empowered by media. And I guess I just that's like
a fundamental belief. And I hate, like it even pains
(30:58):
me to be having this conversation abou Joe Rogan, because
I know there are men that make better content that
will never get a tenth of the attention that somebody
like Joe Rogan would get, would never get a tenth
of the funding like somebody like Joe Rogan would get,
And yeah, they just continue to take up the resources
and the oxygen in the room. I literally hate, Like,
I am really happy that this conversation is being had
(31:23):
and that we are finally kind of like holding Spotify accountable,
but at the same time, it's drowning out other conversations.
I mean, even on Spotify they were talking about how
internally employees are unhappy because they weren't able to actually
promote Black History Month podcasts that they had planned. So
in a lot of ways, even in his scandals and criticism,
(31:47):
Joe Rogan is drowning out other voices, and that is
also very frustrating. It's so frustrating. How do you how
do you see this? Like where do you think we
go from here? I'm constantly trying to make the point
that this is not about anyone creator or just about Spotify.
(32:08):
These issues are really systemic and institutional and they go
so deep, like like, like, where do you see this
going from here? We're at this moment we're having this
like national conversation about lies for profit and misinformation. Um,
where do you see it going? Or where do you
hope it goes? Yeah, those are two different questions. I
(32:29):
really really hope that this can somehow be a lesson
to platforms that they should not be sponsoring people who
spread lies and hatred, Like fundamentally, that seems like a
pretty simple takeaway message is like just don't financially reward them,
(32:51):
don't facilitate their own growth by literally giving them millions
and millions of dollars to be controversial and cause you know,
uproar from lives like that's not helpful. And I really
(33:12):
hope that you know, this dissuades companies from directly sponsoring
it at a bare minimum, and then going forward, I'd
like to see platforms also, you know, because platforms also
a profit off of this, like YouTube seale profits off
of Joe Rogan's videos, um, and I'd like to see
(33:34):
platforms also doing more too, you know, limit their reach
and limit their ability to grow an entire platform and
make millions of dollars by using this like old and
timeless formula. Yeah, I'm with you. I think that will
(33:59):
never change until we make trafficking in lies unprofitable, trafficking
in extremism unprofitable, like and I'm not even someone with
I don't you said earlier that there's always gonna be
people be people who have shitty opinions. I agree, but
we don't have to give the microphones and a million
dollar check to have those opinions. Now, absolutely not. I
(34:20):
think that that's really that's much more assistination than what
I said. Yeah, trafficking in lives should not be profitable.
Like I don't know why this is somehow a radical take. Yeah,
like how bad? Like we're pretty down bad. When it's like, oh,
that like trafficking and lie shouldn't be unprofitable, you cancel
(34:40):
culture sensor sensor censoring. Yeah, it's it's bad. I am
just a radical lib because I don't think you should
get to make money for being racist. Okay, I have
one more question for you. I know that you are
a prolific TikToker. Have you seen this trend where women
(35:03):
use the TikTok face filter to add a beard onto
their face and then they pretend to be male podcasts? Yes,
I love it. You are a man of high value.
It's so funny. I love it. I feel like it
cuts across race, like we I mean, I think that honestly,
(35:23):
part of the conversation is I think that a lot
of a lot of us are just like sick of men,
like sick of men's voices. On podcasts, like you know,
it's I think the tide is turning. Yeah, I was
really relieved to see that because I'm just happy to
see some criticism of the way that men hold space
in podcasts. Uh even like, even if it's in the
(35:46):
form of statire, I think that's still super valid criticism
because it's just so obnoxious. Girl that that that would
be a whole well off into a part two, because
that would be a whole other time. I could, I could,
I could talk for hours. I can talk for hours.
I will just say I agree, stop letting men a podcast,
(36:11):
stop having letting men have podcast challenge. Just we're asking
for one year of no male podcast. That's it. I'm
here for it. I'm here for it. Abby. Thank you
so much as always for helping to shed light on
these issues. Where can folks keep up with your amazing work?
Uh yeah, thank you so much for having me and
they can as always sign me on TikTok at topology
(36:34):
or on Twitter at Abbey a s R or Instagram
at Abbey s R. I really need to get all
of the same user name, but Ward, just it's on
my tode this I promise. Got a story about an
interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi.
You can be just at Hello at tangodi dot com.
(36:54):
You can also find transcripts today's episode at tangdi dot com.
There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by
me Brigita. It's a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss
creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer, Terry Harrison as
our producer, and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer.
I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help
us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For
(37:15):
more podcasts from iHeart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production
of I Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget Todd
and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.
As a podcaster who makes a podcast about misinformation, conspiracy theories,
extremism and how they intact marginalized people, I feel like
(00:24):
it's time to weigh in on Joe Rogan. So, in
case you don't know, Joe Rogan's podcast, The Joe Rogan
Experience has a nasty habit of platforming misinformation and bigotry.
Rogan and his guests have amplified lives about transpokes, women,
climate change. The list goes on, but right now his
misleading and incorrect statements about COVID are what's got him
in the spotlight. Rogan brought on serial misinformer Robert Malone,
(00:49):
who was already suspended from Twitter for spreading inaccurate information
about COVID, to promote the quote Defeat the Mandate rally
in Washington, d C. Last month. Rogan discouraged young people
getting vaccinated, which is especially troubling given the average age
of his listenership as twenty four years old, and, according
to data from Washington State, unvaccinated twelves to thirty four
year old are five times more likely to be hospitalized
(01:12):
with COVID than those who are fully vaccinated. Now, hundreds
of doctors and public health professionals have published an open
letter to Spotify, who exclusively publishes Joe Rogan's podcast, calling
the streaming company out for the way the podcast they
produce has spread COVID misinformation, and asking Spotify to establish
a clear and public policy to moderate misinformation on its platform.
(01:34):
India are Roxanne Gage, Joni Mitchell, and others have joined
Neil Young in taking their content off Spotify. In response,
Spotify released a pretty weak clarification of their misinformation moderation policy,
which doesn't really do much to address the kind of
misinformation that Rogan spreads on his podcast. In a statement,
Spotify CEO said, it is important to me that we
(01:54):
don't take on the position of being a content sensor,
also making sure that there are rules in place and
consequent is for those who violate them. Now, in that statement,
Spotify makes it sound like Rogan it's just another podcaster
on their platform, but he's not. Spotify exclusively produces rogan
show and pays him of reported a hundred million dollars
a year to do so. So what happens when someone
(02:15):
has paid a hundred million dollars to spread conspiracy theories, misinformation, bigotry,
and lies. My name is Abby Richards and I'm a
misinformation researchers slash tick talker. Abby Richards is a disinformation researcher,
science communicator, and a friend of the show, and she
says that Spotify's misinformation policy leaves a lot to be desired. So, Abby,
(02:38):
I'm so glad that you were able to join me today. Um,
I have gone kind of a while without talking about
Joe Rogan, and I think it's time to talk about
Joe Rogan. It's time. It's time. Well, first of all,
just as someone who is a misinformation researcher, what are
your thoughts on his show, what he does, like, what
are your initial thoughts? You know, I don't love it.
(03:00):
I'm not like, I'm not a j R. E bro Uh.
I have just witnessed like way too much misinformation and
general kind of bigotry and hatred on that platform to
then go ahead and be like, oh, I just love
how he interviews people so personally. Yeah, I'm not I'm
(03:23):
not a huge fan are you no, It's so funny.
A few months ago, before this UM Spotify issue was
really in the news, I was at a hotel bar
with my producer Mike, and we were I don't remember
where we were coming back from, but we were getting
a drink and there was this very obnoxious guy at
the bar, like drunk, loud, obnoxious, and he was trying
(03:44):
to really engage us in conversation and we were sort
of not having it. And I think for some reason,
we were talking about Burning Man, Mike and I and
this guy was like, oh, hey, I have a buddy
who goes to Burning Man with with Joe Rogan every year.
And we looked at each other and Mike just went, so,
why would you tell us this had no idea that
(04:06):
we also have a podcast basically, which I feel like
it is a little bit of like an anti Joe Rogan,
like a podcast where we talk about the dangers of
things like misinformation, conspiracy theories, extremism, Like he could not
have picked a worse a worst way to try to
impress us. Oh yeah, I mean your podcast is literally
there are no girls on the Internet, and Joe Rogan
(04:27):
is literally we have no girls on the show yes
exactly exactly. So, you know, what did you think about
seeing all of these high profile folks from Neil Young, India,
ari Um now Rock Sandgate removing their content from Spotify
in reaction to their you know, really unwillingness to do
anything about the misinformation that he spread so often. Yeah,
(04:48):
I mean I think it's I think it's great. I
think it's been surprisingly powerful. I wasn't necessarily expecting it
to have as big of like a ripple in the
in the water as it did. What were your thoughts
on there? I'm not even gonna say that they renewed
like it just seemed like they were saying, like, oh,
(05:10):
we do have a covidness information policy, but it wasn't
for me. I didn't really feel like it was the
kind of policy that you would expect a platform of
that size to be putting out, you know, in now
the what second year of a pandemic. Yeah, you would
expect it to be a little bit more coherent and
thought through. And and the fact that it took all
of this pressure to get the tiniest bit of transparency
(05:34):
into the existing policy that they had is uh. It
says quite a bit about how reluctant. These platforms are
to be transparent about their policies. Uh. And then so
really what they did is they published their existing policies,
which I'm going to also say, like, weren't they were
(05:54):
quite lenient, um to the point where it seems as
though you're able to say that like the back scenes
caused death, but just as long as you don't say
that they were designed to do so. And you know,
they don't really cover wearing masks, and uh, they don't
cover a large large range of medical misinformation that Joe
(06:15):
Rogan has spread on his show. Great to see the transparency,
but I would like to see more coherent and thought
out policies. And then in addition to that, they just
like said they were going to put content warnings on misinformation,
which isn't really shown to be effective. Like I don't
consider that, uh a solid strategy to colm that misinformation,
(06:41):
especially not when you're literally funding the misinformation yourself. Again,
it seems to illustrate to me that Spotify is kind
of hoping that folks won't ask too many questions about
their the nature of the relationship they have with Joe Rogan,
because I feel like it's one thing to put content.
It's one thing for Twitter to put a content warning
(07:02):
on a user's tweet, right to say like, oh, well
this so you know this tweet contains an accurate information.
It's another thing for Spotify to invite Joe Rogan to
exclusively make content with them, pay him handsomely for that content,
be the only place where you can find that content,
and then kind of pretend like, oh, we can just
(07:22):
put a content warning on it. That's the that's the
as far as we can go in terms of dealing
with it. Like that seems like the bare minimum, to
the point where it's almost meaningless. It's almost nothing, And
you know, I do think that they're kind of hoping
that people won't ask too many questions so that they
can continue to treat Joe Rogan like any other individual
(07:44):
content creator that they have on their platform, as opposed
to what they actually are, which is like his publisher.
I think, Yeah, did you see the leaked speech UM
published a few hours ago where the CEO went into
a whole spiel about whether or not they are a
publisher or a platform, And it's like, I mean, even
(08:10):
as if you were just a platform, you still should
have some responsibility for what is on your platform, but
you also are specifically funding, like sponsoring this particular content
on your platform, So you might not have editorial control,
but you still have some liability there. I think that
the statement they released was very much like an attempt
(08:33):
to make the problem go away, just really hoping that
this in action looked enough like action that everybody would
wave their hands and be like, oh, that's fine. I
guess I have seen a lot of toothless tech double
speak in my day that really means nothing. That was
(08:53):
really that was like the Mona Lisa of toothless tech
meaningless double speak. Pr right, Like, let's say a bunch
of things. Let's let's sort of say like we're listening,
we hear you definitely make a nod to free speech,
say like make a nod de fact that you're not
gonna cave to other people's voices. It really hit all
the marks, and I do I agree with you. I
(09:14):
think that they're kind of hoping that this problem will
sort of go away on its own, or that, like
Joe Rogan put out that video statement, they put out
a statement. I think that they're hoping that that's going
to be enough. Um, you know, the Rock has chimed
in and said, like perfectly put, like, let's time to
do on your show soon, Joe Rogan. Um. And I
think it's just I think for me, it's really depressing
(09:35):
because I believe that Spotify is re establishing a precedent,
and that precedent is that if you are like, there
is a market for lies, Like if you tell lies
and spread misinformation and extremism, there is a market for that.
And so I think the question we need to ask
ourselves it's like, are we comfortable with our media our
(09:57):
media landscape really handsome, rewarding and amplifying lies for profit.
And I think it's it's done so much to make
our our media is so much more toxic. Absolutely, And
you think about how Joe Rogan really promotes controversial figures,
and of course he claims he doesn't intend to do that,
(10:17):
but like controversy brings in eyes and ears, and like
it's quite clear that Rogan has a history of platforming
people who promote misinformation, promote bigotry, climate change denial, a
lot of transphobia, like so much transphobia. Uh, it's and
(10:43):
it's not just like allowed, it's being paid for like
for exclusivity, like Spotify was like, we want this and
we want you to be special so that you attract
more users to our platform. Like they he serves a
role there to bring more users to them and make
money for them, and they are fundamentally profiting off of
(11:04):
that kind of controversy. And I'm very frustrated. It is frustrating,
And you know, you you brought brought up a good point. Obviously,
the conversation that's really been in the news right now
is COVID asum COVID misinformation. But I guess my question is,
I have listened to a lot of Joe Rogan show.
(11:25):
I know that the transphobia is is so alarming, Like
the amount of lies about trans people that that him
and his guest trafficking is pretty appolloged. Uh, the climate denialism,
you know, he he did apologize for this, but when
he said that leftists were the ones setting wildfires out
in the west, right right, like things like this, I
(11:47):
guess my question is, why do you think that it's
the COVID misinformation specifically that really sticks when we talk
about this issue. But the lies that he tells about
trans people, the lies that he tells about climate don't
seem to stick quite as much because, in my perspective,
those those things are also medical misinformation and public health misinformation. Yeah,
(12:08):
I mean, I think there's a lot of systemic inequality
behind it. I think it's I'm happy to see that
we are having this public conversation about his medical misinformation
on the platform. UM, But it is fundamentally really limited
to COVID, And it does seem like people are more
(12:34):
motivated by the pandemic than necessarily racial racial issues or
trans issues, UM. And I think that speaks to the
what the public fundamentally cares about. And I hate that
we are up against so much when it comes to
inequality that we really have to when when it comes
(12:57):
to an issue that pertains to marginalize people, we really
have to shout for people to hear us. You really
have to scream for people to hear us. And I
think that COVID. You know, I think it's easier for
some folks to to to see a demonstrable untruth about COVID,
like oh, young people shouldn't get vaccinated and say, oh,
that's a problem. But not but see the way that
(13:19):
Joe Rogan will tell a demonstrable untruth about trans people,
like he has said that trans people do I experience
real discrimination, they bring it on themselves. That's demonstrably untrue.
I think that there's something that makes it easier for
folks to respond when it's about COVID, and it's just
easier for it to go unchecked, unacknowledged, or for maybe
people to say like, oh, that's just his opinion, or
(13:41):
you know, I think that it's it's It shows how
much further we have to go in terms of helping
people understand that misinformation is often identity based, that's often
racialized and gendered in this way, and it's it's really
really harmful, like real world harm, the same way that
COVID health misinformation is yea, and I mean, and we
think of how a lot of this criticism started was
(14:03):
with like doctors and scientists and science educators who already
had existing platforms and are already you know, exist within
this realm of privilege and having their voices elevated, which
is great. I'm happy to have doctors and scientists voices elevated,
but I do think it speaks to just how their
(14:26):
voices are treated as you know, more worthy of attention
than necessarily uh, large groups of marginalized people who have
been speaking out against Joe Rogan for ages. Now, oh
that's such a good point. Let's a quick break out
(14:58):
our back feminists, black women, queer folks, trans folks. They
have been saying for the longest time, and also me
personally as a podcaster, I've been saying like this, Joe
Rogan's like his stick is harmful, and I feel like
people didn't listen and it's Taylor's oldest time, like folks
don't listen until it's kind of everyone's problem. That is
(15:20):
something that we talk about extensively on this show. Um.
But I also think there's this idea that I think
that Joe Rogan really perpetuates that he's just asking questions
or you know, he says like, oh, I'm not a doctor,
don't take my advice, or you know, my guest says this,
and I don't know enough to push back, and as
someone who makes a podcast, I know that that's not true. Right,
(15:41):
Like I'm not an expert on a lot of things,
but I decide who comes onto my show. I decide,
you know, who to platform, and it's just it's just
this kind of feigning of ignorance that I feel is
so powerful but so frustrating. Yeah. I go back and
forth on whether it's famed or whether he just really
(16:04):
is like that much of just an idiot who has
just fallen upwards and upwards and upwards into having podcasts
where for some reason people listen to him talk for
three hours And it's like, I can't really tell um
(16:25):
because it's such a perfect excuse to be like, well,
I didn't know, you know, how was I going to
know that when I had this guest on that I
booked and supposedly should have researched what kinds of things
they were going to say before platforming them, and you know,
maybe listen to the edit of my podcast before I
posted it. Uh, all of those very basic things that
(16:50):
I do for my TikTok's I would expect him to
do for his world's largest podcast, But apparently it hasn't
occurred to him that he has any any responsibility. Yes,
you just put that so wonderfully. I think that's one
(17:11):
of the reasons. I mean, I don't want to sound
like I'm just crapping on another podcaster, but it's it's something.
It's very frustrating to watch. And I know that so
many people who make content, whether it's TikTok's like you
or podcasts like me, they put so much effort and
craft and care into it, and so hearing like, well,
I don't even listen to them. I don't even prepare.
I don't know what I'm gonna say before until I
(17:33):
say it's like, wow, we really are having different experiences
when it comes to creating or content. Something fundamentally different
is happening here. A part of the reason why I
almost by his act of just like really being that
ignorant is I think that like he is somebody who
just would never have ever been affected by this sort
(17:58):
of misinformation and hate it that he allows on his platform,
and therefore he doesn't have any understanding of why he
needs to have responsibility like I could. I could maybe
understand if he really smokes as much weak as he
does seem to like, how he could end up in
(18:19):
that position of just like I don't know, I just
like listen, I just listen to other people talk and
post it. But like, you have a responsibility, and if
you don't, if you refuse to take that responsibility seriously,
then like why do you deserve to have the platform
that you do? That's such a good question, and and
platforms they they do come like even if you have
(18:42):
a small platform, it comes with responsibility. And I think
that's something I've been so frustrated about. In this conversation, um,
I was doing like a news interview about Joe Rogan
and Spotify, and it was a little bit of an
adversarial like the interviewer definitely was more team Rogan than
I was, and he kept asking like, isn't this censorship,
Like isn't this cancel culture? And I kind of couldn't
(19:04):
get my head around how we got to a place
where asking for someone that has a massive platform that
has listened to by millions of people, that has paid
hundreds a hundred million dollars to make to make something,
asking for really basic fact checking or basic you know,
editorial standards is equated to censorship, Like I don't know
(19:24):
if you read Rock sand Gay's amazing piece in The
New York Times today about why she's pulling her podcast
from Spotify, she said, there's a difference between censorship and curation.
When we are not free to express ourselves, we can
be thrown in jail or even lose our lives speaking
for speaking freely. That is censorship. When we say as
a society that bigotry and misinformation are unacceptable, that people
who spouse these ideas don't deserve access to significant platforms,
(19:47):
that's curation. We are expressing our caste and moral discernment
and saying what we find acceptable and what we do not.
And I feel like we've kind of lost the thread
in a way that really benefits who spread misinformation. That
the second that you're like, wait, well we should doesn't
we should expect better than lies and bigotry and extremism.
(20:10):
Immediately there's going to be acquire people who are like
that censorship, that's canceled culture. That's bad. Yeah. I am
so glad that you read that quote, because if you didn't,
I would have. It was such a good piece, and
I really highly recommend that everybody co read it. Um.
It's it's really interesting that this has it. It's really interesting,
(20:33):
but not at all surprising that this has been turned
into some effort to cancel Joe Rogan when that was
never really what anyone has asked for. UM. First of all,
define cancel. I can't, UM, But like we add like
we were asking for misinformation policies and for those to
(20:55):
be implemented and transparent on the platform. Um and like yes,
Joe Rogan's podcast should also follow those policies. I don't
think anybody is saying like he should not be allowed
to ever speak again, he should be thrown in prison,
Like nobody's saying that, Like I don't think anyone even
(21:18):
has a problem with his stupid getting high and having
comedy podcasts like if I'm yeah, I'm also pro getting high,
Like if you want to get high and talk to
your dudes about wrestling, Joe, go ahead, Like I just
don't need you high. Speculating about the vaccines being gene therapy,
(21:41):
like just just I'm not saying, don't have a career
doing this. It seems like for some reason some people
find you very entertaining, so go ahead. It's it's just
the the lies and the hatred that I feel like
we could avoid. I think Roxane as Piece put it
really well that people people who are trafficking lies and hatred.
(22:04):
I don't love it, but okay, I think those those
people are always going to be there. They shouldn't be
the loudest voices in the room. They shouldn't be the
most well paid voices in the room. They shouldn't be
the most amplified voices in the room. And when they are,
I feel like that's when we really have a problem
because it just takes up so much oxygen from the room,
Like we don't really have the space to have the substitutive,
(22:26):
thoughtful conversations that we could be having when the person
with the loudest megaphone is just screaming nonsense. Yeah, and
and like you're never gonna be able to make every
shitty opinion go away. Um, but that those shitty opinions
don't necessarily like deserve giant platforms and to have access
(22:52):
to like every year in the country, especially like for
people who are vulnerable to those sorts of like sorts
of biggest for you in misinformation if you are somebody
who's vulnerable to that, and then you listen to Joe
Rogan because maybe you really look up to him, like
and then you're fed lies and racism and transphobia, Like
(23:14):
he's that that's predatory more after a quick break, let's
get right back into it. We can't deny that he
(23:37):
people like him he's very popular. He has a huge audience,
and I think part of the reason why that is
it's sort of the same old story when it comes
to misinformation. I think that bad actors and people who
traffic and misinformation they find groups of people who feel
who are or feel overlooked or or underserved. And so
(23:59):
whether it's a Banish speaking population that doesn't have enough
Spanish speaking news outlets, and so bad actors know like, oh,
we will give you lots of news, it will just
be lies. I think that Joe Rogan maybe really taps
into a group of younger males who do feel legitimately
unseen and unlistened to and like no one is speaking
(24:20):
to them. And so I think that he has been
able to shine a spotlight on these folks and make
them feel seen and heard and validated in ways maybe
other media sources, like legitimately maybe are not And so
I wonder, like, like, what do you think about that,
Like why do you think he has such a big listenership,
Why do you think he's so popular, and what does
it say about our media climate. I definitely agree that
(24:42):
he must be serving some like he's serving and meeting
some emotional and psychological need for this largely male audience
who listened to him. Um. I think that from when
I've listened to podcast, there does seem to be this
(25:02):
kind of this focus on masculinity, either implicity, implicitly or explicitly.
Masculinity is often uh highlighted. There's a lot of gender anxiety.
I think that when SIS men are confronted with the
(25:22):
reality that gender isn't as binary as they were told
it was, that there can be a lot of backlash
and that they will just kind of try and root
even deeper into the gender binary and for quote traditional masculinity.
So I see that a lot in his podcast, and
I do think that he's meeting that need right Like
(25:45):
he's just he's just like your funny older brother who's
like getting high and having chats with other funny guys. Um,
So he's got to be meeting their needs in that way.
We had an interview with Foma Zoma, who used to
reprep Interest and a instrumental person in terms of getting
Pinterest to ban medical misinformation. Something that you told me
(26:06):
that really stuck with me is that nine times out
of ten people who were pushing medical misinformation on Pinterest
we're selling something, whether it was a supplement or something
some sort of like alternative something, and they were like
making money. And so I know that Joe Rogan owns
a supplement company, and his supplement company advertises on the podcast.
When you go to the Joe Rogan Reddit, people are
(26:26):
asking a lot about it. I feel like it is
obviously in his best interest to have a generation of
young men feel intense anxiety about what it means to
be a man masculinity, and then also sell supplements that
purport to make you more virile, make you more masculine,
make you more of a man, whatever that means. I
(26:48):
think it's a very clear, really it's a very clear
relationship to me why someone would be interested in having
their listenership feel anxious about the sort of gender issues
you were just speaking to. And it always bumps me
out because I always just wonder what if that same
generation of young men were had access to a platform
(27:12):
that was as popular, as accessible as I guess, engaging
as they find Joe Rogan, but instead of leaning into
lies and anxieties around gender, they were being given thoughtful, substitutive, interesting,
you know, opinions and takes about gender. That did that?
Did we're not also trafficking and lies and extremism? What
(27:33):
if that was what they were being said with, would
they feel the need to buy to buy supplements? What
they feel the like? Would they feel as anxious? Would that?
Would that nourish them more? Right? Like I I guess
when I think about this information, I think about the
massive sort of missed opportunity to really nourish people with
good content and good media, because I truly believe that
(27:55):
everybody deserves good media, everybody deserves the truth, everybody deserves accuracy.
And it makes me sad that so many people they
choose something else. Yeah, not only are they and they
don't choose it like they not only are they choosing it,
but it's being really promoted to them and fed to them.
(28:16):
As you know, this is the most popular, so it
must be good. And I think so much disinformation. I mean,
as you said, like they're they're selling something, And a
big tactic of encouraging people to buy something is to
make them feel as though they are they need it, right,
like they are wanting they are lacking something, And one
(28:39):
way to do that is make them feel anxious, Right,
they're lacking masculinity. Uh, they don't have enough vitamin whatever
they're they're selling on that particular episode. Um. And they
we see it with like Fox News right, like they
prey on vulnerable populations, highlight these deep anxieties that they have,
(29:06):
and then feed them disinformation just to like increase those anxieties.
It doesn't help for our polarization problem at all either,
Like it's an absolute mess, but people profit off of it. Yeah,
I think that's something that really gets to me that
it absolutely adds to polarization. And we have so many
big issues facing us as people as a society, and
(29:28):
if we're all being fed extremism and lies and pull
and like more and more polarized and people are profiting
off of that, we're never going to be able to
come together with like a subsidutive conversation about these issues.
We're always going to remain polarized. And I, you know,
I believe that we are better when we are coming
to the table with accurate information to have to base
(29:49):
our conversations on. And it makes like there are people
out there that are profiting on us not doing that
absolutely well, because the whole idea is to uphold the
status quo and they're profiting off of people being unhappy
in the status quo or you know, not understanding why
they don't have the wealth that they were promised they
(30:12):
one day would, or the power or happiness that they
were promised that they one day would. Um. And none
of this media empowers anybody in their lives, Like fundamentally,
it's there to increase anxiety and to keep them powerless
in the face of tremendous inequality, Like this is not
(30:36):
helping to unite the lower class. What Yeah, I love
how you put that. It is not it's media that
is not empowering. And yeah, I feel like everybody deserves
to see themselves reflected in media. Everybody deserves to feel
empowered by media. And I guess I just that's like
a fundamental belief. And I hate, like it even pains
(30:58):
me to be having this conversation abou Joe Rogan, because
I know there are men that make better content that
will never get a tenth of the attention that somebody
like Joe Rogan would get, would never get a tenth
of the funding like somebody like Joe Rogan would get,
And yeah, they just continue to take up the resources
and the oxygen in the room. I literally hate, Like,
I am really happy that this conversation is being had
(31:23):
and that we are finally kind of like holding Spotify accountable,
but at the same time, it's drowning out other conversations.
I mean, even on Spotify they were talking about how
internally employees are unhappy because they weren't able to actually
promote Black History Month podcasts that they had planned. So
in a lot of ways, even in his scandals and criticism,
(31:47):
Joe Rogan is drowning out other voices, and that is
also very frustrating. It's so frustrating. How do you how
do you see this? Like where do you think we
go from here? I'm constantly trying to make the point
that this is not about anyone creator or just about Spotify.
(32:08):
These issues are really systemic and institutional and they go
so deep, like like, like, where do you see this
going from here? We're at this moment we're having this
like national conversation about lies for profit and misinformation. Um,
where do you see it going? Or where do you
hope it goes? Yeah, those are two different questions. I
(32:29):
really really hope that this can somehow be a lesson
to platforms that they should not be sponsoring people who
spread lies and hatred, Like fundamentally, that seems like a
pretty simple takeaway message is like just don't financially reward them,
(32:51):
don't facilitate their own growth by literally giving them millions
and millions of dollars to be controversial and cause you know,
uproar from lives like that's not helpful. And I really
(33:12):
hope that you know, this dissuades companies from directly sponsoring
it at a bare minimum, and then going forward, I'd
like to see platforms also, you know, because platforms also
a profit off of this, like YouTube seale profits off
of Joe Rogan's videos, um, and I'd like to see
(33:34):
platforms also doing more too, you know, limit their reach
and limit their ability to grow an entire platform and
make millions of dollars by using this like old and
timeless formula. Yeah, I'm with you. I think that will
(33:59):
never change until we make trafficking in lies unprofitable, trafficking
in extremism unprofitable, like and I'm not even someone with
I don't you said earlier that there's always gonna be
people be people who have shitty opinions. I agree, but
we don't have to give the microphones and a million
dollar check to have those opinions. Now, absolutely not. I
(34:20):
think that that's really that's much more assistination than what
I said. Yeah, trafficking in lives should not be profitable.
Like I don't know why this is somehow a radical take. Yeah,
like how bad? Like we're pretty down bad. When it's like, oh,
that like trafficking and lie shouldn't be unprofitable, you cancel
(34:40):
culture sensor sensor censoring. Yeah, it's it's bad. I am
just a radical lib because I don't think you should
get to make money for being racist. Okay, I have
one more question for you. I know that you are
a prolific TikToker. Have you seen this trend where women
(35:03):
use the TikTok face filter to add a beard onto
their face and then they pretend to be male podcasts? Yes,
I love it. You are a man of high value.
It's so funny. I love it. I feel like it
cuts across race, like we I mean, I think that honestly,
(35:23):
part of the conversation is I think that a lot
of a lot of us are just like sick of men,
like sick of men's voices. On podcasts, like you know,
it's I think the tide is turning. Yeah, I was
really relieved to see that because I'm just happy to
see some criticism of the way that men hold space
in podcasts. Uh even like, even if it's in the
(35:46):
form of statire, I think that's still super valid criticism
because it's just so obnoxious. Girl that that that would
be a whole well off into a part two, because
that would be a whole other time. I could, I could,
I could talk for hours. I can talk for hours.
I will just say I agree, stop letting men a podcast,
(36:11):
stop having letting men have podcast challenge. Just we're asking
for one year of no male podcast. That's it. I'm
here for it. I'm here for it. Abby. Thank you
so much as always for helping to shed light on
these issues. Where can folks keep up with your amazing work?
Uh yeah, thank you so much for having me and
they can as always sign me on TikTok at topology
(36:34):
or on Twitter at Abbey a s R or Instagram
at Abbey s R. I really need to get all
of the same user name, but Ward, just it's on
my tode this I promise. Got a story about an
interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi.
You can be just at Hello at tangodi dot com.
(36:54):
You can also find transcripts today's episode at tangdi dot com.
There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by
me Brigita. It's a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss
creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer, Terry Harrison as
our producer, and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer.
I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help
us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For
(37:15):
more podcasts from iHeart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
What Are We Even Doing? with Kyle MacLachlan
Join award-winning actor and social media madman Kyle MacLachlan on “What Are We Even Doing,” where he sits down with Millennial and Gen Z actors, musicians, artists, and content creators to share stories about the entertainment industry past, present, and future. Kyle and his guests will talk shop, compare notes on life, and generally be weird together. In a good way. Their conversations will resonate with listeners of any age whose interests lie in television & film, music, art, or pop culture.