March 17, 2023 • 37 mins
In this bonus Twitter Spaces conversation, Bridget is joined by #OscarsSoWhite creator April Reign and Dr. Jon Paul, screenwriter and co-host of BFF: Black, Fat, Femme podcast to discuss how marginalized creators are still celebrating our creativity even within industries that don’t always see it.
How #OscarsSoWhite changed the Academy Awards: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64883399
LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE TO DR. JON’S PODCAST: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bff-black-fat-femme/id1631198874
Opinion: Black Oscar Snubs Say More About the Industry Than It Does Black Creators: https://www.bet.com/article/sj85cv/black-oscar-snubs-say-more-about-the-industry-than-it-does-black-creators
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production
of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this
is There Are No Girls on the Internet. There Are
No Girls on the Internet is still on hiatus to
take a little break in between seasons, but we're coming
back soon. But in the meantime, I had to get
(00:25):
on the mic to talk about the Oscars. It has
been all I can talk about and think about this
whole week, literally to the point where my friends are like,
please stop talking about the Oscars. Don't you have a podcast?
Couldn't you talk about it there? So that's what I'm doing.
So by now, if you watch the Oscars, you probably
know that Michelle Yo made history as the first Asian
woman to win Best Actress at the Oscars and the
(00:48):
second woman of color to win Best Actress at the
Oscars since Halle Berry back in two thousand and two
for her iconic film Everything Everywhere, All at Once. Now,
celebrating these kinds of wins is always a little bit
bit you're sweet for me, because on the one hand,
it's important to acknowledge these historic achievements, but on the
other hand, I'm like, it's twenty twenty three. What took
(01:09):
you all so long? You know, why are we celebrating
historic firsts in twenty twenty three? It's complicated. So I
joined the iconic April Rain, creator of the viral hashtag
turned movement, oscar So White, and doctor John Paul, screenwriter
and co host of the iHeartRadio groundbreaking podcast BFF, Black,
(01:30):
Fat and Fem for a Twitter spaces about how marginalized
creators are still celebrating our brilliance and creativity even when
we're in industries that don't always recognize it. With us, y'all.
This is actually my very first ever spaces I have
ever moderated, So you know it's gonna go great. It's
(01:53):
gonna be fantastic. Thank you all for joining us today.
My name is Bridget Todd. I am the director of
book Communications with Ultra Violet, a national gender justice organization,
and the creator and host of Iheartradios Tech and Culture podcast.
There are no girls on the Internet, and like a
lot of y'all, I just watched the Oscars. I have
(02:13):
a lot to say this year's Oscars. You know, there
were some historic wins, but unfortunately, as we're pretty used to,
some pretty big snubs as well, and instead of having
that same old conversation about why Hollywood keeps overlooking us,
we really wanted to take this opportunity to flip the
script a little bit and say, you know, we are here,
we are brilliant, you make good work, and at the
(02:35):
powers that be don't recognize that it is on them
and not us. And to do that, I am joined
by an iconic duo that I cannot wait to introduce,
April Rain. You might know April Rain as the creator
of the online movement Oscar so White and screenwriter and
all around Hollywood screenwriter, badass doctor John Paul. Thank you
(02:59):
both so much for being here today, Thank you for
having us. Very excited to be here on spaces with you. Yeah. Same,
I'm really happy to be in such good spaces with
good people. So this is going to be a really
good time. So I would love to get started by
both of you just sort of quickly introducing yourselves and
telling us your connection to Hollywood for folks that might
(03:20):
not know, or to the entertainment industry for folks that
might not know. I guess I'll go first. I, as
you mentioned, Bridget, I created Oscar So White in January
of twenty fifteen. Before that time, I had no nexus
to the entertainment industry except that I loved TV and
(03:41):
film and stage, and so I was an avid consumer
of all of that. And since Oscar so White, I've
become an equity and inclusion consultant in the entertainment industry
and have been working in this capacity for eight years now. Awesome,
(04:03):
I guess I'll follow that and by saying kind of
the same thing, I am an educator by trade. Folks
see doctor John Paum, they usually ask are you really
a doctor? Yes, I have by doctor's degree. I started
let them know, yeah, like I do have a doctor's degree.
And Educational Justice was very, very A lot of my
work and a lot of the stuff that I started
tweeting slash writing about happened right around the time that
(04:25):
we started seeing stuff around Oscar Grant and a lot
of basically anything and everything that was happening around in
Justice between twenty fourteen and twenty sixteen. And so with
that being said, a lot of when Moonlight came out
in twenty fifteen, I got tapped on a shoulder after
writing this very long thread about the ways that black
(04:46):
queer folks are treated in television and films and the
ways our stories are not shown. And that led me
to being getting opportunities to write for in TV and
all these other different places. The root, blavity, you name it,
I've written there pretty much. And so now kind of
like April, I get pulled in to have very There
(05:08):
are a lot of companies and organizations that pull me
in and say, hey, we really want to do things
well in entertainment, specifically around queer LGBTQ, black stories, and
usually I am the one in the room helping to
make sure those stories get told. So that's me in
a nutshell. I'm so grateful for both of you and
your voices and your presence in the space. April, I
(05:30):
want to come back to you. You know, back in
twenty fifteen, you were calling out how white the Oscars
were you with the iconic tweet quote Oscars so white
they asked to touch my hair, and a movement was born.
I know that Spike Lee gave you a not for
creating the conditions for him doing his first Oscar with
the Black Plansman. What is it like to be the
creator of a movement that started on social media and
(05:51):
one that literally changed Hollywood, and and I guess a
follow up question would be, how much do you think
has changed since you first started Oscar So back in?
That's a lot. I don't take credit for um for
any of the things that you mentioned, Honestly, you know,
I think that I was in the right place at
(06:12):
the right time, saying the right things. But I honestly
wasn't saying anything new. There have been people decades before
me saying the same thing in a different way that
you know, we need more representation in entertainment, both in
front of and behind the camera. You know, I think
that now still a lot more needs to be done.
(06:38):
You know, as you mentioned Bridget and the opening that
we have has some historic wins since you know, I
created Oscar So White in twenty fifteen, but there's so
much work that still needs to be done. And I
would honestly love to shift the conversation from the Oscars
and other awards, you know, which happened at the very
end of a film's life, and go back to the
(07:00):
getting and talk about how important it is to have,
as doctor John mentioned, the right people in the room
from the very beginning, who is telling the stories and
whose stories are being told are the most important questions
we can ask, not who is being nominated because of
the right stories aren't being made. Then no, you're not
(07:21):
going to get nominations because the work just isn't there.
Doctor John, Can you relate to what April is saying? Yeah,
I think that that's part of the reason why. I mean,
I know for me watching television and what I mean,
I always so. I tweeted this yesterday before the Oscars,
the tweet. You know that they showed Viola wimming the
Emmy and she said basically and so and I don't
(07:43):
know the verbatim what she said, but she said, you
can't win an Emmy for roles that are not there.
And I think that's been the thing that's been so frustrating. Right,
So we're looking at we're looking at and I say,
all oppression is cyclical and it's all connected. But I
think that's been my biggest frustration. We're critiqued for not
we get people over your math that you didn't win. Well, no,
it's more than that. It's the idea that we're not
(08:05):
even given a chance to win, and when we do
get a chance to win, there's so little room for
opportunity for us to win that you know that it's
it's just it's it's it's really interesting. I wrote a
whole bunch of thoughts down and it's funny because I'm
trying not to like go off on this long tangent
of how frustrated I am. But I think my biggest
thing is with the industry, kind of going back to
(08:28):
April's point, you know, there's so many folks that are
that are looking at us as us being angry and saying, well,
you're just upset. You should be happy that you're even recognized.
And it's like, no, we shouldn't be happy for one
or two pieces or bread of breadcrumbs that the industry
is throwing at us. That's what it feels like at
this point, that folks are throwing us breadcrumbs and saying, here,
(08:49):
just be happy you have something to eat. You know,
so absolutely, doctor John, I mean, the space is kind
of came from a place of frustration that I really
saw beautifully echoed in your piece for each called black
oscar Snubs say more about the industry that does about
black creators. One of my favorite lines from that piece
I will read right now Admittedly, while much of the
conversation around the Academy not nominating black films has grown
(09:11):
a bit stale, along with conversations about black people needing
to start their own what folks often fail to explore
is what these snubs really say about the industry as
a whole. Yess well, might sting that we continue to
be overlooked. We have to remember that our stories and
creativity being overlooked has more about the Academy and its
voters than it would ever say about us. And I
guess what My first question is, what do you think
(09:32):
it has about about the Academy and the voters? And
just a question for both of you, like, how do
we shift the conversation. How do we have a different
conversation that's not the same conversation we have every award
season that's like, oh, they're not seeing us, We're overlooked
for being snubbed, and that is really grounded and the
fact that we make dope, We make dope shit and
if people can't see that, that as on them and
(09:54):
not on us. Yeah, if I can't. Before you know,
Queen April ros I call her cre in April. Before
April goes, I did want to say that one of
the notes that I made last night was and I said,
I was going to save it for the space, because
oftentimes tweets can get lost in translation, and so I
wanted to be able to say what was on my mind,
but also be able to kind of back it by
(10:16):
what I mean by And I said, you know, I
what I wrote down is is I keep thinking about
why black films and shows never get to sweep award shows,
and honestly, it's just a way to keep black creators
and creatives humble and leveled. And I think that's the
thing that I want us to really kind of like
think about, Right, why have we like, even when Black
Patther came out, even with all of the money Black
(10:37):
Panther made, even with all that it did to kind
of shake and change the way we think about television
or even film, right, there were only a few awards
that were given to the folks who were connected to
Black Panther. And I think that there are two things
that are at play. I said, the industry not wanting
black creators are people to feel too powerful, and to
(10:58):
make sure that we remember that what our places is
not only in just the industry, but the world, Right,
the idea that if we have to acknowledge that black
creators make dope shit and that it's gonna make stuff
that's gonna be bigger than we could ever make, then
you are ultimately saying that I have to show up
and I actually have to do the work and work harder,
and to acknowledge that we are talented, even with all
(11:20):
the hoops they put us through, means we are so
remarkably powerful, something that no one, not I would say,
no white creator ever wants to say to us. They
never want to admit that black people are the ship.
And so I think that that's the thing that I
was really trying to get out in this piece. Right,
The notion is it's not just about us not winning,
it's the opportunities not being given to us to win.
(11:42):
It is because they never want to have to acknowledge
that what we could ever do is greater than what
they could ever conceive. Yeah, I'm not even playing to
file out. I just hit my mic on Yeah. I
think you know, there's been a long standing question about validation,
(12:06):
right and seeking validation from white sources, and so since
I create Oscars a white I've heard the pushback, why
do we even care you know, why you know, why
should we you know, even be looking to the white
folks to give us a handout or YadA YadA and
all that, And there is some truth to that. I
absolutely understand that argument, and which is why I think
(12:30):
we need to remember that there are places where we
are validated by our own right There's the Alma Awards,
the Glad Awards, the NAACP Awards, who all focus on
marginalized communities and the recognition that they deserve. With respect
(12:50):
to the Oscars, I think it can be both and right.
We want respect and validation from our peers within our community,
but we also deserve validation from the industry as a whole.
We can absolutely have the conversation about what if the
(13:10):
OSCARS should be considered the pinnacle in film awards in
part because of who the voting membership is, in part
because they haven't translated the an award win or even
a nomination isn't translatable for most, especially people of color,
(13:31):
into increased opportunities. There's a long list of a reason
why maybe the OSCARS shouldn't be seen as b end
all and be all, But as of right now, for
better or worse, the oscars are considered the pinnacle. Right
and regardless of whether you are a fry cook at
McDonald's or a CEO of a Fortune one hundred corporation,
(13:55):
you want to be recognized by people within your industry
that matters, Right. There's a reason why we talk about
the fact that Beyonce still hasn't won the Album of
the Year Grammy. It's the same type of thing. Even
though we know that those particular legacy institutions don't deserve
(14:16):
our creativity. It is more a question of being recognized
by what is considered to be the pinnacle in your
particular industry. Let's take a quick break at our back. Absolutely,
(14:47):
and I think that you really drill into one of
the reasons why when people are like, oh, just make
your own awards, it's really a yes and right, Like,
I do think that we need to, you know, be
excited about all the different award that are out there
that recognize marginalized talent, but also it's normal to want
to be recognized by industry standards. And so the conversation
(15:08):
really could be like, well, should the oscars be the
end all be all of what is considered the standard
in the industry. That is, I mean, like for better
or for worse, that is what the situation is right now.
And so saying like, oh, make your own awards show
just really fall short and doesn't really capture what is
actually happening and what folks are actually dealing with. Well,
I think that's right. And also the people that say
(15:31):
that are the same folks that say that they don't
see race, right, and why should we be so concerned,
and why do we need to have Black History Month?
We need to have you know, one history. You know,
we need to celebrate our similarities and whatever. Okay, But
if that's true, then why is it that when we
leave you all to your own devices, you say things like, well,
(15:54):
I couldn't pronounce lupida and yongo, and so I didn't
even watch Twelve Years of Slave, much less vote for
her for Best Actress or Best Supporting Actress. Right when
left to their own devices, these same folks who say
that they don't see race and they don't see color
and they don't understand why we need to have our
own special thing aren't interested in recognizing our excellence within
(16:16):
their own bodies. And so that's why it's important that
we ensure that we have these other organizations that are
just as important that celebrate us. Yeah, and if I
can add to that, I think the other thing that
I really want folks to get in all that we're saying,
and I hear us kind of saying we are all
on the same wavelength. But I think the bigger thing
(16:38):
for me is it's not just about the validation. It's
the idea of knowing how much it took for us
to get to the Oscars, Like the thought of how
much it takes for like, even for me as a
black writer, right, I'm still PREWGA and I'm still trying
to break in, and I'm still trying to get an opportunity,
and I've done a lot of Excuse me, I've done
a lot of shit in the last eight years, and
(16:58):
I'm still fighting to get it in right. And so
for me to get to the Oscars or for me
to get to the Emmys, that's that's validating me as
a black queer creator and saying you went through all
of that and you created this amazing thing for so
many people who saw themselves, and now we want to
give you the validation you deserve by saying you did
that even when you had nothing right, And so I
(17:20):
think that you know, the thing that really pains me
in this conversation when we talk about the oscars, it's
not about losing right, it's really knowing that there's so
many black, brown, queer, non binary people who are pouring
their hearts into the work that they're doing and it's
basically being snubbed with a simple it's not good enough
or there's not that many people who can relate. And
(17:41):
it's like, well, if you're not giving it the space
or the opportunity or the grace for folks to be
able to connect to it, then how is it going
to ever change the system that it's that it's meant
to live in? You know, absolutely, and like not to
go off on it. I know I'm a moderator, but
not to go off on a tangent. But I see
that time and time again when black story, brown stories,
queer stories, trend stories are not really given that space
(18:04):
to grow. Like they'll get a season on Netflix and
then they'll get pulled and then and it'll be like, oh, well,
why didn't it do better? And it's like, well, you
didn't really support it, you didn't really give it a
chance to grow, and when somebody else comes and wants
to tell their black story or their queer story, or
their trend story, they're gonna look and say, oh, well,
this one it only lasted for our season, without actually
(18:25):
including that fact that like, well, we didn't really support it,
and we didn't you know, we didn't really give a
chance to breathe or grow. Yep. And that's really that's
an issue that we don't talk about enough that so
a TV studio or a movie studio will put out
a show that is quote unquote diverse or whatever, you know,
(18:47):
whatever that means to them, right, and then but they
don't support the show or the film, and then they're like, oh,
we can't figure out why it didn't work, but we're
never going to try that again, you know. So famously,
for example, Avid Verney said that the distribution company for
her film Selma in twenty fourteen did not send out
the screeners to the Academy members. Little inside baseball here,
(19:12):
you know, not everybody wants to go to a theater
to see a particular film. So to get those films
out there and seen by the folks who vote for them,
very often they send screeners, DVD or you know, they
send it through the laptop or whatever so that people
can view them in the privacy of their own home. Well,
if a distribution company decides that they're not going to
(19:34):
send that out, then how does one see it in
order to vote for it? Right? So yeah, you can say, oh,
we made a quote unquote black film. And that's not
even a phrase that I like to use, right because
we never say white film, a straight film or whatever, Right,
So I don't like to use that film. I prefer
that phrase. I prefer to say, you know, films that
(19:55):
reflect an aspect of the black experiences a lot longer.
It doesn't get expect the hastag but it is more accurate.
So anyway, so even when Selma came out it was
a fantastic film, the distribution companies can say, oh, yeah,
well we you know, we made a black film. It's like,
but if you didn't support it, then, you know, when
(20:16):
it doesn't do well at the box office, when it
doesn't do well during awards seasons, then you can go
back and say, oh, well we tried, but we don't
know what happened, and so we're not going to try
and do more. Of that right, and so then it
becomes a vicious cycle. So they put it out there begrudgingly,
but they don't support it all the way through to
the very end. The other little piece of insight Baseball
(20:37):
I wanted to share is that when it comes to
awards season, film companies and studios have a finite marketing budget.
And so if a particular company, like a twenty four
or Paramount or you know whatever MGM says that you know,
they put out eight films over the course of the year.
(20:59):
They decide relatively early on, based on everything that they're seeing,
which films they think are going to do the best
at award season, and then they put their marketing dollars
behind those films. So if they choose two out of
the eighth that they have over the year, and you know,
(21:20):
the other six actually featured marginalized the traditional traditionally underrepresented communities,
they're gonna get paid dust and they're gonna go with
the war film, you know, or the back office match
because it's the same shit every single year, and those
are the ones that they're going to promote during award season,
and the other ones are left out to dry to
(21:43):
you know, to attempt to stir up award buzz all
in their own more. After a quick break, let's get
(22:05):
right back into it. So what a switch gears a
little bit? You know? The Oscars were not without its
high points. Michelle Yo at sixty, made history men becoming
the first Asian woman to win Best Actress and Actress
the Oscars. Her pictures with Halle Berry were so powerful,
like get ready to see that shit on? Like everything
on T shirts. This Then the third, Ruth Carter, became
(22:27):
the first black woman to win two Oscars. I wonder
to each of you, will this always be kind of
a bitter sweet thing? Because I love celebrating when we win.
I love celebrating marginalized wins. But I always think, what
took y'all so long? Is it really like it feels
in twenty twenty three bitter sweet to be celebrating these
winds when I wish we were seeing all the time.
(22:49):
I wish I didn't have to wait to celebrate these wins.
I wish they were already happening. Did you do you
ever feel that way? Yeah? You know, I think for me,
And that's the hard part about I think about being
you know, it's funny because this conversation just reminds me
so much of the cob why I was having with
the frame. We were talking about the crabs and the
(23:10):
barrel mentality and the question of why are crabs in
the barrel in the first place? Um, like why do
we should be in the ocean? I think, no, really,
such a good point. It's such a good point, like
why are why are why aren't crabs in the oceans?
But I not to difvert from your question. I think
the biggest thing for me is that you know, when
when think when we're so marginalized, and when marginalized people
(23:33):
have only been given scrabs, right, they feel like they
should celebrate whatever they can get. And I think that
that's the thing that I think is so frustrating, right,
because it should not be in a situation where we
have to pick and choose between whether we celebrate Angela
Bassett winning versus Jamie Lee Curtis right. It needs to
be like we're looking at this notion of the reason
why people are so upset that Angela didn't win is
(23:56):
because for years, Angela has shown up and has done
the work, and it's fault and it's continue to keep
showing up, and it's still not getting what she deserves, right,
So I think, like that's the frustrating part for me.
It's like, while I really want to be happy and
I want to be excited about the wins for other people,
there's this long history that continues to keep telling us.
We've had ninety five years with the oscars, telling us
(24:17):
we don't give two shits about black people, when only
a black when a black woman has only one two
when how many other people have won. So it's just,
you know, I don't know if I'm making sense, but
I guess for me, it's frustrating that we have to
constantly celebrate the little bit that we get when there
(24:37):
should be so much more progression. I guess that's the
bigger point I'm trying to make. It's always going to
be a bittersweet for me, because, as doctor John Paul said,
we shouldn't still be celebrating first in twenty twenty three,
you know. And so that's the really frustrating part that
(24:59):
everything time someone from a traditionally underrepresented community wins, yes,
we're excited, but it's like, damn, why did it take
all this? And part of that is because as talented
as that person was, we know that there was someone
before them that should have won, Right, Angela bastard. This
(25:20):
should be at least her second oscar Win. You know,
it's starting back with what's love got to do with it?
And you can choose whatever else you want to put
in there. Right for her to still be zero and
zero for two nominations is disrespectful at this point. And
you know, there was a whole bunch of talk about oh,
(25:42):
she you know, she didn't whatever, she didn't clap loud
and wef or whatever, and it's like, listen, she displayed
a very human response right in that moment. After all
that she has given this industry to be looked over
again has to be heartbreaking. It takes nothing away from
(26:07):
Jamie Lee Curtis. You know, there's a reason why I
don't talk about snubs because when you say that someone
has been snubbed, then the follow up question always is, well,
you know, if they should have been nominated, then who
would you take out? And that's not fair, right because
all of the performances were great, but we know that
some rise to the challenge more than others. And we
(26:31):
also know that Academy voters vote sometimes based on legacy
history of work, right, Because for example, you can't tell
me that al Pacino winning the Oscar for Whua what
Scent of a Woman was better than him winning for
(26:52):
Godfather Too, for Cerproco for Down Day Afternoon, like you
name it. But in my mind, you know, nobody will
have saying out loud, but in my mind, he won
percent of a Woman because it was based on a
body of work. You know, we don't know how much
longer Al is going to be acting. Overall, he's a
fantastic actor. Perhaps this wasn't his best performance, but let's
(27:13):
go ahead and give it to him. Right. And that's
not the way things should be, I believe, because I
get this a lot. Oh well, you just want the
black people a wain or the queer people or whatever.
It's like. No, I believe that movie awards nominations and
wins and all awards shouldn't be you know, participation trophies.
(27:34):
They should be based on merit. But the Academy voters
are not required to view the films before they vote,
thank you. I feel like this, So that means that
they're voting, oh because you know they know the director
(27:56):
or like the director. Or again, as I said, maybe
it's a legacy win. Or they didn't vote at all.
It was their manager slash agent slash publicists who filled
out the ballot. It's all of these things. Other than yes,
I watched all of the nominees in this category, and
I believe this was the best of the five or
the ten, right, and that is it. That means because
(28:18):
the Academy voting members are still overwhelmingly white and overwhelmingly male,
then that means what we really have here is a
popularity to contest amongst older white men exactly. And I guess,
I guess, Oh sorry, doctor John. I was just gonna
say that old boys clubs go always strike, honey, Yes,
(28:41):
And I guess sort of like against the backdrop of
this being the sort of like industry voting body and
how it works as creative and industry professionals in this space,
like what fills your cup? How do both of you say,
tapped into your black brilliance against this backdrop that we
know can be so that this can be so bad
at seeing y'all, April, I don't know if you want
(29:06):
to take it first, but I was gonna say, I
think you you ask a really interesting question. And it's
funny because I get people who reach out to me
a lot and say, you know, we follow you on
social we see you winning over here, especially like the
now my podcast is taking off and now I'm doing
all of these little things, and I have so many
people reaching out and saying, you're you inspire me? How
(29:27):
do you stay inspire? And I think it's it's it's
really looking at other creators who you know, like I know,
I know for me, like I know that smile that
Angela Bassett had last night was a pain smile. But
there was an element to me when I looked at
when I looked at that clip again and seeing in
her face, it was like, I know, I did the
(29:48):
best that I could do, and that's got to be enough.
And I think that that's what's been holding me these
last couple of months, last years as I've been in
the industry, is knowing that my good enough is gonna
have to be good enough and that I'm not gonna
constantly keep equating it to what my white colleagues are
doing and they're in they're lane. I recognize that the
fear fields are greener with pasture for them. But I
(30:10):
know for me, what I'm gonna do over here is
my best, and I'm gonna do my best to make
sure that I encourage those who are around me. So
I think that that's really what what holds me in
this space is just saying, you know what Mariah say,
I'm gonna do the best I can, well what I got.
That's it. If you hear snaps over here, that's just
me snapping along. Yeah, that's beautiful. That is beautiful. I
(30:34):
think for me, it's those glimmers of hope that I
see every now and again. UM. For example, Melvin Van
Peebles and Julie Dash are now members of the Academy.
Since Oscars so white, in my mind, they should have
been members decades ago because of their seminal work, but
(30:55):
because of the way the Oscars used to be with
respect to inducting UM members, they had not been invited.
So there's that. Um, it's watching Ava Duverney do what
seven years, seven seasons of Clean Sugar and have nothing
but female directors that you know, gives me hope and
(31:19):
keeps me energized. Because what folks don't realize is you
can do a full feature, two hour film and still
not be able to get a job to you know,
direct or show run a thirty minute show on TV.
You would think that things would you know that the
skills are transferable, But again, it's all about the opportunities.
(31:43):
Seeing Marseille Martin be the youngest person to ever produce
a film that did really well at the box office,
things like that give me hope and energy. You know,
it's it's finally seeing Key and Michelle Yo win last night,
(32:04):
and the way that Asian and AAPI folks are finally,
you know, getting a little bit of the spotlight in
the entertainment industry despite decades and decades of phenomenal work.
Those things all make me very happy to see. But
it's obvious that we have so much more to go.
(32:25):
We have so much more work to do Before I
let you go, April, I have one curveball question for you.
I know you were the co founder of Sister Scotus
and campaign to advocate for getting a black woman on
the Supreme Court, and you did that. Shit, how does that?
Thanks for that? It feels amazing. You know, it was
me and three other black women who assembled like voltron
(32:47):
and knew that we couldn't start the campaign once President
Biden once there was a vacancy on the Supreme Court, right,
because people don't really think about or care about judicial
nominations in the same way that they do, you know,
for example, presidential campaigns. And so we start at work
(33:09):
in twenty twenty when Biden at still nominee Biden, you know,
Senator Biden campaign front runner Biden promised to nominate a
black woman to the Supreme Court. And so now seeing
her up there, it's fantastic because we know, slowly but surely, again,
(33:29):
nothing happens overnight, but slowly but surely she is going
to have an impact that will last generations. And now
that she is there, that ceiling is broken, and it's
time to get even you know, more people from marginalized
communities on the court, because I think that people don't
realize how important the Supreme Court is with respect to
(33:49):
the changes that can be made. And only now that
Roe v. Wade has been overturned and other things are
happening with respect of affirmative action and you know, voting
rights and all of those people are really starting to
wake up, perhaps in a way that they weren't before
about how important the Supreme Court and judicial nominations and
confirmations are throughout the country, not just at the Supreme
(34:12):
Court level, but even at the local and judicial level.
I am so grateful for your work in the space,
both of you. Thank you so much for being here,
and thank you for the lasting impact that I know
that your work will make. You all are creating legacies
that I know will reverberate for years to come. Where
can folks follow all the work you're doing? What are
you working on? What do you want to shout out?
We love you both? Like? What do y'all got? Okay,
(34:36):
well I'll start here. You can listen every Tuesday to
a brand new episode of the Black Fat Fan podcast
hosted by iHeartMedia and now on the Outspoken Network. And
you can also find me here. You can all over
the place. I have articles coming out that are like pending,
but my ladies is with beet and Yeah. You can
(34:57):
also go to my website at ww dot doctor John
Paul dot com. Fantastic April. Yeah, this is the part
I hate. Um. You know, I'm reigning of April across
the board on all the social media platforms. I will
be on spill as soon as it drops. It is
going to be a culture forward app, getting back to
(35:19):
the fun that gives the means to be five or
ten years I cannot wait. I will be there, so definitely.
You can go to spill dash app dot com spill
dashapp dot com to reserve your handle because we're coming
out very soon. We just had an activation at South
(35:40):
By UM and things are going great. I know that
we have like sixty thousand people waiting to get in
this app, so you're not going to be alone, and
that's one of the major things I've got going on
right now. Thanks for asking, and thank you so much
for hosting Bridget. This has been great. Oh, thank you
both for being here. Thank you at John and April,
and thanks to all of you for listening for everything
(36:01):
at the Access of Culture, Gender, Race, Identity, keep following
Ultra Violet, and thanks so much for being here. Have
a great US in your night, everybody. All right, Thank you, everybody,
have a go. Thank you all right. Bye. If you're
looking for ways to support the show, check out our
merchstore at tangodi dot com. Slash store. Got a story
(36:22):
about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to
say hi. You can reach us at Hello at tangodi
dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode
at tangodi dot com. There Are No Girls on the
Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. It's a production
of iHeartRadio and Unboss Creative edited by Joey pat Jonathan
Strickland as our executive producer. Terry Harrison is our producer
and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm
(36:45):
your host, Bridget Toad. If you want to help us
grow right and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production
of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this
is There Are No Girls on the Internet. There Are
No Girls on the Internet is still on hiatus to
take a little break in between seasons, but we're coming
back soon. But in the meantime, I had to get
(00:25):
on the mic to talk about the Oscars. It has
been all I can talk about and think about this
whole week, literally to the point where my friends are like,
please stop talking about the Oscars. Don't you have a podcast?
Couldn't you talk about it there? So that's what I'm doing.
So by now, if you watch the Oscars, you probably
know that Michelle Yo made history as the first Asian
woman to win Best Actress at the Oscars and the
(00:48):
second woman of color to win Best Actress at the
Oscars since Halle Berry back in two thousand and two
for her iconic film Everything Everywhere, All at Once. Now,
celebrating these kinds of wins is always a little bit
bit you're sweet for me, because on the one hand,
it's important to acknowledge these historic achievements, but on the
other hand, I'm like, it's twenty twenty three. What took
(01:09):
you all so long? You know, why are we celebrating
historic firsts in twenty twenty three? It's complicated. So I
joined the iconic April Rain, creator of the viral hashtag
turned movement, oscar So White, and doctor John Paul, screenwriter
and co host of the iHeartRadio groundbreaking podcast BFF, Black,
(01:30):
Fat and Fem for a Twitter spaces about how marginalized
creators are still celebrating our brilliance and creativity even when
we're in industries that don't always recognize it. With us, y'all.
This is actually my very first ever spaces I have
ever moderated, So you know it's gonna go great. It's
(01:53):
gonna be fantastic. Thank you all for joining us today.
My name is Bridget Todd. I am the director of
book Communications with Ultra Violet, a national gender justice organization,
and the creator and host of Iheartradios Tech and Culture podcast.
There are no girls on the Internet, and like a
lot of y'all, I just watched the Oscars. I have
(02:13):
a lot to say this year's Oscars. You know, there
were some historic wins, but unfortunately, as we're pretty used to,
some pretty big snubs as well, and instead of having
that same old conversation about why Hollywood keeps overlooking us,
we really wanted to take this opportunity to flip the
script a little bit and say, you know, we are here,
we are brilliant, you make good work, and at the
(02:35):
powers that be don't recognize that it is on them
and not us. And to do that, I am joined
by an iconic duo that I cannot wait to introduce,
April Rain. You might know April Rain as the creator
of the online movement Oscar so White and screenwriter and
all around Hollywood screenwriter, badass doctor John Paul. Thank you
(02:59):
both so much for being here today, Thank you for
having us. Very excited to be here on spaces with you. Yeah. Same,
I'm really happy to be in such good spaces with
good people. So this is going to be a really
good time. So I would love to get started by
both of you just sort of quickly introducing yourselves and
telling us your connection to Hollywood for folks that might
(03:20):
not know, or to the entertainment industry for folks that
might not know. I guess I'll go first. I, as
you mentioned, Bridget, I created Oscar So White in January
of twenty fifteen. Before that time, I had no nexus
to the entertainment industry except that I loved TV and
(03:41):
film and stage, and so I was an avid consumer
of all of that. And since Oscar so White, I've
become an equity and inclusion consultant in the entertainment industry
and have been working in this capacity for eight years now. Awesome,
(04:03):
I guess I'll follow that and by saying kind of
the same thing, I am an educator by trade. Folks
see doctor John Paum, they usually ask are you really
a doctor? Yes, I have by doctor's degree. I started
let them know, yeah, like I do have a doctor's degree.
And Educational Justice was very, very A lot of my
work and a lot of the stuff that I started
tweeting slash writing about happened right around the time that
(04:25):
we started seeing stuff around Oscar Grant and a lot
of basically anything and everything that was happening around in
Justice between twenty fourteen and twenty sixteen. And so with
that being said, a lot of when Moonlight came out
in twenty fifteen, I got tapped on a shoulder after
writing this very long thread about the ways that black
(04:46):
queer folks are treated in television and films and the
ways our stories are not shown. And that led me
to being getting opportunities to write for in TV and
all these other different places. The root, blavity, you name it,
I've written there pretty much. And so now kind of
like April, I get pulled in to have very There
(05:08):
are a lot of companies and organizations that pull me
in and say, hey, we really want to do things
well in entertainment, specifically around queer LGBTQ, black stories, and
usually I am the one in the room helping to
make sure those stories get told. So that's me in
a nutshell. I'm so grateful for both of you and
your voices and your presence in the space. April, I
(05:30):
want to come back to you. You know, back in
twenty fifteen, you were calling out how white the Oscars
were you with the iconic tweet quote Oscars so white
they asked to touch my hair, and a movement was born.
I know that Spike Lee gave you a not for
creating the conditions for him doing his first Oscar with
the Black Plansman. What is it like to be the
creator of a movement that started on social media and
(05:51):
one that literally changed Hollywood, and and I guess a
follow up question would be, how much do you think
has changed since you first started Oscar So back in?
That's a lot. I don't take credit for um for
any of the things that you mentioned, Honestly, you know,
I think that I was in the right place at
(06:12):
the right time, saying the right things. But I honestly
wasn't saying anything new. There have been people decades before
me saying the same thing in a different way that
you know, we need more representation in entertainment, both in
front of and behind the camera. You know, I think
that now still a lot more needs to be done.
(06:38):
You know, as you mentioned Bridget and the opening that
we have has some historic wins since you know, I
created Oscar So White in twenty fifteen, but there's so
much work that still needs to be done. And I
would honestly love to shift the conversation from the Oscars
and other awards, you know, which happened at the very
end of a film's life, and go back to the
(07:00):
getting and talk about how important it is to have,
as doctor John mentioned, the right people in the room
from the very beginning, who is telling the stories and
whose stories are being told are the most important questions
we can ask, not who is being nominated because of
the right stories aren't being made. Then no, you're not
(07:21):
going to get nominations because the work just isn't there.
Doctor John, Can you relate to what April is saying? Yeah,
I think that that's part of the reason why. I mean,
I know for me watching television and what I mean,
I always so. I tweeted this yesterday before the Oscars,
the tweet. You know that they showed Viola wimming the
Emmy and she said basically and so and I don't
(07:43):
know the verbatim what she said, but she said, you
can't win an Emmy for roles that are not there.
And I think that's been the thing that's been so frustrating. Right,
So we're looking at we're looking at and I say,
all oppression is cyclical and it's all connected. But I
think that's been my biggest frustration. We're critiqued for not
we get people over your math that you didn't win. Well, no,
it's more than that. It's the idea that we're not
(08:05):
even given a chance to win, and when we do
get a chance to win, there's so little room for
opportunity for us to win that you know that it's
it's just it's it's it's really interesting. I wrote a
whole bunch of thoughts down and it's funny because I'm
trying not to like go off on this long tangent
of how frustrated I am. But I think my biggest
thing is with the industry, kind of going back to
(08:28):
April's point, you know, there's so many folks that are
that are looking at us as us being angry and saying, well,
you're just upset. You should be happy that you're even recognized.
And it's like, no, we shouldn't be happy for one
or two pieces or bread of breadcrumbs that the industry
is throwing at us. That's what it feels like at
this point, that folks are throwing us breadcrumbs and saying, here,
(08:49):
just be happy you have something to eat. You know,
so absolutely, doctor John, I mean, the space is kind
of came from a place of frustration that I really
saw beautifully echoed in your piece for each called black
oscar Snubs say more about the industry that does about
black creators. One of my favorite lines from that piece
I will read right now Admittedly, while much of the
conversation around the Academy not nominating black films has grown
(09:11):
a bit stale, along with conversations about black people needing
to start their own what folks often fail to explore
is what these snubs really say about the industry as
a whole. Yess well, might sting that we continue to
be overlooked. We have to remember that our stories and
creativity being overlooked has more about the Academy and its
voters than it would ever say about us. And I
guess what My first question is, what do you think
(09:32):
it has about about the Academy and the voters? And
just a question for both of you, like, how do
we shift the conversation. How do we have a different
conversation that's not the same conversation we have every award
season that's like, oh, they're not seeing us, We're overlooked
for being snubbed, and that is really grounded and the
fact that we make dope, We make dope shit and
if people can't see that, that as on them and
(09:54):
not on us. Yeah, if I can't. Before you know,
Queen April ros I call her cre in April. Before
April goes, I did want to say that one of
the notes that I made last night was and I said,
I was going to save it for the space, because
oftentimes tweets can get lost in translation, and so I
wanted to be able to say what was on my mind,
but also be able to kind of back it by
(10:16):
what I mean by And I said, you know, I
what I wrote down is is I keep thinking about
why black films and shows never get to sweep award shows,
and honestly, it's just a way to keep black creators
and creatives humble and leveled. And I think that's the
thing that I want us to really kind of like
think about, Right, why have we like, even when Black
Patther came out, even with all of the money Black
(10:37):
Panther made, even with all that it did to kind
of shake and change the way we think about television
or even film, right, there were only a few awards
that were given to the folks who were connected to
Black Panther. And I think that there are two things
that are at play. I said, the industry not wanting
black creators are people to feel too powerful, and to
(10:58):
make sure that we remember that what our places is
not only in just the industry, but the world, Right,
the idea that if we have to acknowledge that black
creators make dope shit and that it's gonna make stuff
that's gonna be bigger than we could ever make, then
you are ultimately saying that I have to show up
and I actually have to do the work and work harder,
and to acknowledge that we are talented, even with all
(11:20):
the hoops they put us through, means we are so
remarkably powerful, something that no one, not I would say,
no white creator ever wants to say to us. They
never want to admit that black people are the ship.
And so I think that that's the thing that I
was really trying to get out in this piece. Right,
The notion is it's not just about us not winning,
it's the opportunities not being given to us to win.
(11:42):
It is because they never want to have to acknowledge
that what we could ever do is greater than what
they could ever conceive. Yeah, I'm not even playing to
file out. I just hit my mic on Yeah. I
think you know, there's been a long standing question about validation,
(12:06):
right and seeking validation from white sources, and so since
I create Oscars a white I've heard the pushback, why
do we even care you know, why you know, why
should we you know, even be looking to the white
folks to give us a handout or YadA YadA and
all that, And there is some truth to that. I
absolutely understand that argument, and which is why I think
(12:30):
we need to remember that there are places where we
are validated by our own right There's the Alma Awards,
the Glad Awards, the NAACP Awards, who all focus on
marginalized communities and the recognition that they deserve. With respect
(12:50):
to the Oscars, I think it can be both and right.
We want respect and validation from our peers within our community,
but we also deserve validation from the industry as a whole.
We can absolutely have the conversation about what if the
(13:10):
OSCARS should be considered the pinnacle in film awards in
part because of who the voting membership is, in part
because they haven't translated the an award win or even
a nomination isn't translatable for most, especially people of color,
(13:31):
into increased opportunities. There's a long list of a reason
why maybe the OSCARS shouldn't be seen as b end
all and be all, But as of right now, for
better or worse, the oscars are considered the pinnacle. Right
and regardless of whether you are a fry cook at
McDonald's or a CEO of a Fortune one hundred corporation,
(13:55):
you want to be recognized by people within your industry
that matters, Right. There's a reason why we talk about
the fact that Beyonce still hasn't won the Album of
the Year Grammy. It's the same type of thing. Even
though we know that those particular legacy institutions don't deserve
(14:16):
our creativity. It is more a question of being recognized
by what is considered to be the pinnacle in your
particular industry. Let's take a quick break at our back. Absolutely,
(14:47):
and I think that you really drill into one of
the reasons why when people are like, oh, just make
your own awards, it's really a yes and right, Like,
I do think that we need to, you know, be
excited about all the different award that are out there
that recognize marginalized talent, but also it's normal to want
to be recognized by industry standards. And so the conversation
(15:08):
really could be like, well, should the oscars be the
end all be all of what is considered the standard
in the industry. That is, I mean, like for better
or for worse, that is what the situation is right now.
And so saying like, oh, make your own awards show
just really fall short and doesn't really capture what is
actually happening and what folks are actually dealing with. Well,
I think that's right. And also the people that say
(15:31):
that are the same folks that say that they don't
see race, right, and why should we be so concerned,
and why do we need to have Black History Month?
We need to have you know, one history. You know,
we need to celebrate our similarities and whatever. Okay, But
if that's true, then why is it that when we
leave you all to your own devices, you say things like, well,
(15:54):
I couldn't pronounce lupida and yongo, and so I didn't
even watch Twelve Years of Slave, much less vote for
her for Best Actress or Best Supporting Actress. Right when
left to their own devices, these same folks who say
that they don't see race and they don't see color
and they don't understand why we need to have our
own special thing aren't interested in recognizing our excellence within
(16:16):
their own bodies. And so that's why it's important that
we ensure that we have these other organizations that are
just as important that celebrate us. Yeah, and if I
can add to that, I think the other thing that
I really want folks to get in all that we're saying,
and I hear us kind of saying we are all
on the same wavelength. But I think the bigger thing
(16:38):
for me is it's not just about the validation. It's
the idea of knowing how much it took for us
to get to the Oscars, Like the thought of how
much it takes for like, even for me as a
black writer, right, I'm still PREWGA and I'm still trying
to break in, and I'm still trying to get an opportunity,
and I've done a lot of Excuse me, I've done
a lot of shit in the last eight years, and
(16:58):
I'm still fighting to get it in right. And so
for me to get to the Oscars or for me
to get to the Emmys, that's that's validating me as
a black queer creator and saying you went through all
of that and you created this amazing thing for so
many people who saw themselves, and now we want to
give you the validation you deserve by saying you did
that even when you had nothing right, And so I
(17:20):
think that you know, the thing that really pains me
in this conversation when we talk about the oscars, it's
not about losing right, it's really knowing that there's so
many black, brown, queer, non binary people who are pouring
their hearts into the work that they're doing and it's
basically being snubbed with a simple it's not good enough
or there's not that many people who can relate. And
(17:41):
it's like, well, if you're not giving it the space
or the opportunity or the grace for folks to be
able to connect to it, then how is it going
to ever change the system that it's that it's meant
to live in? You know, absolutely, and like not to
go off on it. I know I'm a moderator, but
not to go off on a tangent. But I see
that time and time again when black story, brown stories,
queer stories, trend stories are not really given that space
(18:04):
to grow. Like they'll get a season on Netflix and
then they'll get pulled and then and it'll be like, oh, well,
why didn't it do better? And it's like, well, you
didn't really support it, you didn't really give it a
chance to grow, and when somebody else comes and wants
to tell their black story or their queer story, or
their trend story, they're gonna look and say, oh, well,
this one it only lasted for our season, without actually
(18:25):
including that fact that like, well, we didn't really support it,
and we didn't you know, we didn't really give a
chance to breathe or grow. Yep. And that's really that's
an issue that we don't talk about enough that so
a TV studio or a movie studio will put out
a show that is quote unquote diverse or whatever, you know,
(18:47):
whatever that means to them, right, and then but they
don't support the show or the film, and then they're like, oh,
we can't figure out why it didn't work, but we're
never going to try that again, you know. So famously,
for example, Avid Verney said that the distribution company for
her film Selma in twenty fourteen did not send out
the screeners to the Academy members. Little inside baseball here,
(19:12):
you know, not everybody wants to go to a theater
to see a particular film. So to get those films
out there and seen by the folks who vote for them,
very often they send screeners, DVD or you know, they
send it through the laptop or whatever so that people
can view them in the privacy of their own home. Well,
if a distribution company decides that they're not going to
(19:34):
send that out, then how does one see it in
order to vote for it? Right? So yeah, you can say, oh,
we made a quote unquote black film. And that's not
even a phrase that I like to use, right because
we never say white film, a straight film or whatever, Right,
So I don't like to use that film. I prefer
that phrase. I prefer to say, you know, films that
(19:55):
reflect an aspect of the black experiences a lot longer.
It doesn't get expect the hastag but it is more accurate.
So anyway, so even when Selma came out it was
a fantastic film, the distribution companies can say, oh, yeah,
well we you know, we made a black film. It's like,
but if you didn't support it, then, you know, when
(20:16):
it doesn't do well at the box office, when it
doesn't do well during awards seasons, then you can go
back and say, oh, well we tried, but we don't
know what happened, and so we're not going to try
and do more. Of that right, and so then it
becomes a vicious cycle. So they put it out there begrudgingly,
but they don't support it all the way through to
the very end. The other little piece of insight Baseball
(20:37):
I wanted to share is that when it comes to
awards season, film companies and studios have a finite marketing budget.
And so if a particular company, like a twenty four
or Paramount or you know whatever MGM says that you know,
they put out eight films over the course of the year.
(20:59):
They decide relatively early on, based on everything that they're seeing,
which films they think are going to do the best
at award season, and then they put their marketing dollars
behind those films. So if they choose two out of
the eighth that they have over the year, and you know,
(21:20):
the other six actually featured marginalized the traditional traditionally underrepresented communities,
they're gonna get paid dust and they're gonna go with
the war film, you know, or the back office match
because it's the same shit every single year, and those
are the ones that they're going to promote during award season,
and the other ones are left out to dry to
(21:43):
you know, to attempt to stir up award buzz all
in their own more. After a quick break, let's get
(22:05):
right back into it. So what a switch gears a
little bit? You know? The Oscars were not without its
high points. Michelle Yo at sixty, made history men becoming
the first Asian woman to win Best Actress and Actress
the Oscars. Her pictures with Halle Berry were so powerful,
like get ready to see that shit on? Like everything
on T shirts. This Then the third, Ruth Carter, became
(22:27):
the first black woman to win two Oscars. I wonder
to each of you, will this always be kind of
a bitter sweet thing? Because I love celebrating when we win.
I love celebrating marginalized wins. But I always think, what
took y'all so long? Is it really like it feels
in twenty twenty three bitter sweet to be celebrating these
winds when I wish we were seeing all the time.
(22:49):
I wish I didn't have to wait to celebrate these wins.
I wish they were already happening. Did you do you
ever feel that way? Yeah? You know, I think for me,
And that's the hard part about I think about being
you know, it's funny because this conversation just reminds me
so much of the cob why I was having with
the frame. We were talking about the crabs and the
(23:10):
barrel mentality and the question of why are crabs in
the barrel in the first place? Um, like why do
we should be in the ocean? I think, no, really,
such a good point. It's such a good point, like
why are why are why aren't crabs in the oceans?
But I not to difvert from your question. I think
the biggest thing for me is that you know, when
when think when we're so marginalized, and when marginalized people
(23:33):
have only been given scrabs, right, they feel like they
should celebrate whatever they can get. And I think that
that's the thing that I think is so frustrating, right,
because it should not be in a situation where we
have to pick and choose between whether we celebrate Angela
Bassett winning versus Jamie Lee Curtis right. It needs to
be like we're looking at this notion of the reason
why people are so upset that Angela didn't win is
(23:56):
because for years, Angela has shown up and has done
the work, and it's fault and it's continue to keep
showing up, and it's still not getting what she deserves, right,
So I think, like that's the frustrating part for me.
It's like, while I really want to be happy and
I want to be excited about the wins for other people,
there's this long history that continues to keep telling us.
We've had ninety five years with the oscars, telling us
(24:17):
we don't give two shits about black people, when only
a black when a black woman has only one two
when how many other people have won. So it's just,
you know, I don't know if I'm making sense, but
I guess for me, it's frustrating that we have to
constantly celebrate the little bit that we get when there
(24:37):
should be so much more progression. I guess that's the
bigger point I'm trying to make. It's always going to
be a bittersweet for me, because, as doctor John Paul said,
we shouldn't still be celebrating first in twenty twenty three,
you know. And so that's the really frustrating part that
(24:59):
everything time someone from a traditionally underrepresented community wins, yes,
we're excited, but it's like, damn, why did it take
all this? And part of that is because as talented
as that person was, we know that there was someone
before them that should have won, Right, Angela bastard. This
(25:20):
should be at least her second oscar Win. You know,
it's starting back with what's love got to do with it?
And you can choose whatever else you want to put
in there. Right for her to still be zero and
zero for two nominations is disrespectful at this point. And
you know, there was a whole bunch of talk about oh,
(25:42):
she you know, she didn't whatever, she didn't clap loud
and wef or whatever, and it's like, listen, she displayed
a very human response right in that moment. After all
that she has given this industry to be looked over
again has to be heartbreaking. It takes nothing away from
(26:07):
Jamie Lee Curtis. You know, there's a reason why I
don't talk about snubs because when you say that someone
has been snubbed, then the follow up question always is, well,
you know, if they should have been nominated, then who
would you take out? And that's not fair, right because
all of the performances were great, but we know that
some rise to the challenge more than others. And we
(26:31):
also know that Academy voters vote sometimes based on legacy
history of work, right, Because for example, you can't tell
me that al Pacino winning the Oscar for Whua what
Scent of a Woman was better than him winning for
(26:52):
Godfather Too, for Cerproco for Down Day Afternoon, like you
name it. But in my mind, you know, nobody will
have saying out loud, but in my mind, he won
percent of a Woman because it was based on a
body of work. You know, we don't know how much
longer Al is going to be acting. Overall, he's a
fantastic actor. Perhaps this wasn't his best performance, but let's
(27:13):
go ahead and give it to him. Right. And that's
not the way things should be, I believe, because I
get this a lot. Oh well, you just want the
black people a wain or the queer people or whatever.
It's like. No, I believe that movie awards nominations and
wins and all awards shouldn't be you know, participation trophies.
(27:34):
They should be based on merit. But the Academy voters
are not required to view the films before they vote,
thank you. I feel like this, So that means that
they're voting, oh because you know they know the director
(27:56):
or like the director. Or again, as I said, maybe
it's a legacy win. Or they didn't vote at all.
It was their manager slash agent slash publicists who filled
out the ballot. It's all of these things. Other than yes,
I watched all of the nominees in this category, and
I believe this was the best of the five or
the ten, right, and that is it. That means because
(28:18):
the Academy voting members are still overwhelmingly white and overwhelmingly male,
then that means what we really have here is a
popularity to contest amongst older white men exactly. And I guess,
I guess, Oh sorry, doctor John. I was just gonna
say that old boys clubs go always strike, honey, Yes,
(28:41):
And I guess sort of like against the backdrop of
this being the sort of like industry voting body and
how it works as creative and industry professionals in this space,
like what fills your cup? How do both of you say,
tapped into your black brilliance against this backdrop that we
know can be so that this can be so bad
at seeing y'all, April, I don't know if you want
(29:06):
to take it first, but I was gonna say, I
think you you ask a really interesting question. And it's
funny because I get people who reach out to me
a lot and say, you know, we follow you on
social we see you winning over here, especially like the
now my podcast is taking off and now I'm doing
all of these little things, and I have so many
people reaching out and saying, you're you inspire me? How
(29:27):
do you stay inspire? And I think it's it's it's
really looking at other creators who you know, like I know,
I know for me, like I know that smile that
Angela Bassett had last night was a pain smile. But
there was an element to me when I looked at
when I looked at that clip again and seeing in
her face, it was like, I know, I did the
(29:48):
best that I could do, and that's got to be enough.
And I think that that's what's been holding me these
last couple of months, last years as I've been in
the industry, is knowing that my good enough is gonna
have to be good enough and that I'm not gonna
constantly keep equating it to what my white colleagues are
doing and they're in they're lane. I recognize that the
fear fields are greener with pasture for them. But I
(30:10):
know for me, what I'm gonna do over here is
my best, and I'm gonna do my best to make
sure that I encourage those who are around me. So
I think that that's really what what holds me in
this space is just saying, you know what Mariah say,
I'm gonna do the best I can, well what I got.
That's it. If you hear snaps over here, that's just
me snapping along. Yeah, that's beautiful. That is beautiful. I
(30:34):
think for me, it's those glimmers of hope that I
see every now and again. UM. For example, Melvin Van
Peebles and Julie Dash are now members of the Academy.
Since Oscars so white, in my mind, they should have
been members decades ago because of their seminal work, but
(30:55):
because of the way the Oscars used to be with
respect to inducting UM members, they had not been invited.
So there's that. Um, it's watching Ava Duverney do what
seven years, seven seasons of Clean Sugar and have nothing
but female directors that you know, gives me hope and
(31:19):
keeps me energized. Because what folks don't realize is you
can do a full feature, two hour film and still
not be able to get a job to you know,
direct or show run a thirty minute show on TV.
You would think that things would you know that the
skills are transferable, But again, it's all about the opportunities.
(31:43):
Seeing Marseille Martin be the youngest person to ever produce
a film that did really well at the box office,
things like that give me hope and energy. You know,
it's it's finally seeing Key and Michelle Yo win last night,
(32:04):
and the way that Asian and AAPI folks are finally,
you know, getting a little bit of the spotlight in
the entertainment industry despite decades and decades of phenomenal work.
Those things all make me very happy to see. But
it's obvious that we have so much more to go.
(32:25):
We have so much more work to do Before I
let you go, April, I have one curveball question for you.
I know you were the co founder of Sister Scotus
and campaign to advocate for getting a black woman on
the Supreme Court, and you did that. Shit, how does that?
Thanks for that? It feels amazing. You know, it was
me and three other black women who assembled like voltron
(32:47):
and knew that we couldn't start the campaign once President
Biden once there was a vacancy on the Supreme Court, right,
because people don't really think about or care about judicial
nominations in the same way that they do, you know,
for example, presidential campaigns. And so we start at work
(33:09):
in twenty twenty when Biden at still nominee Biden, you know,
Senator Biden campaign front runner Biden promised to nominate a
black woman to the Supreme Court. And so now seeing
her up there, it's fantastic because we know, slowly but surely, again,
(33:29):
nothing happens overnight, but slowly but surely she is going
to have an impact that will last generations. And now
that she is there, that ceiling is broken, and it's
time to get even you know, more people from marginalized
communities on the court, because I think that people don't
realize how important the Supreme Court is with respect to
(33:49):
the changes that can be made. And only now that
Roe v. Wade has been overturned and other things are
happening with respect of affirmative action and you know, voting
rights and all of those people are really starting to
wake up, perhaps in a way that they weren't before
about how important the Supreme Court and judicial nominations and
confirmations are throughout the country, not just at the Supreme
(34:12):
Court level, but even at the local and judicial level.
I am so grateful for your work in the space,
both of you. Thank you so much for being here,
and thank you for the lasting impact that I know
that your work will make. You all are creating legacies
that I know will reverberate for years to come. Where
can folks follow all the work you're doing? What are
you working on? What do you want to shout out?
We love you both? Like? What do y'all got? Okay,
(34:36):
well I'll start here. You can listen every Tuesday to
a brand new episode of the Black Fat Fan podcast
hosted by iHeartMedia and now on the Outspoken Network. And
you can also find me here. You can all over
the place. I have articles coming out that are like pending,
but my ladies is with beet and Yeah. You can
(34:57):
also go to my website at ww dot doctor John
Paul dot com. Fantastic April. Yeah, this is the part
I hate. Um. You know, I'm reigning of April across
the board on all the social media platforms. I will
be on spill as soon as it drops. It is
going to be a culture forward app, getting back to
(35:19):
the fun that gives the means to be five or
ten years I cannot wait. I will be there, so definitely.
You can go to spill dash app dot com spill
dashapp dot com to reserve your handle because we're coming
out very soon. We just had an activation at South
(35:40):
By UM and things are going great. I know that
we have like sixty thousand people waiting to get in
this app, so you're not going to be alone, and
that's one of the major things I've got going on
right now. Thanks for asking, and thank you so much
for hosting Bridget. This has been great. Oh, thank you
both for being here. Thank you at John and April,
and thanks to all of you for listening for everything
(36:01):
at the Access of Culture, Gender, Race, Identity, keep following
Ultra Violet, and thanks so much for being here. Have
a great US in your night, everybody. All right, Thank you, everybody,
have a go. Thank you all right. Bye. If you're
looking for ways to support the show, check out our
merchstore at tangodi dot com. Slash store. Got a story
(36:22):
about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to
say hi. You can reach us at Hello at tangodi
dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode
at tangodi dot com. There Are No Girls on the
Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. It's a production
of iHeartRadio and Unboss Creative edited by Joey pat Jonathan
Strickland as our executive producer. Terry Harrison is our producer
and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm
(36:45):
your host, Bridget Toad. If you want to help us
grow right and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast,
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