April 6, 2021 • 52 mins
Harassment online is nothing new, but we’ve seen waves of women in journalism being harassed on social media just for doing their jobs.
Being targeted by an online harassment campaign can happen to anyone, whether you’re a public figure or not.
Writer and Lyz Lenz gives a practical crash course in how to prevent it.
Read Lyz’s piece When The Mob Came For Me: https://www.niemanlab.org/2021/04/when-the-mob-comes/
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're listening to Disinformed, a mini series from There Are
No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. Nobody likes
talking about online harassment. When I first started the podcast
There Are No Girls on the Internet, I specifically wanted
to talk about all the cool things that women, queer folks,
black folks, and other underrepresented voices are doing on the Internet.
(00:26):
And as much as I wanted to focus on the positive,
the harassment we face online is difficult to ignore. Earlier
this month, Chrissie Teagan left Twitter. This was kind of
a big deal. She's someone who was once called the
Mayor of Twitter because she's such a prolific user. She
spoke at Twitter headquarters for a company event and on Instagram.
She made it clear that she didn't blame Twitter for
(00:47):
feeling like she had to leave the platform. She said
that Twitter staff had actually reached out and worked with
her and her team to deal with the barrage of
harassment she faces, and I'm sure they did. Chrissy Tigan
is rich and famous and well connected. What about the
rest of us who aren't. We've seen a wave of
online harassment come for women journalists too. On Fox News,
(01:07):
Tucker Carlson did two nights of segments pretty much just
making fun of New York Times Internet culture reporter Taylor
Lawrenz for, as he put it, pretending to be oppressed
after she tweeted for International Women's Day, please consider supporting
women and during online harassment. After Times reporter Rachel Abrams
did a report on the conservative news network own the network,
(01:28):
bataliated by putting her personal cell phone number on the
air and encouraging viewers to contact her, a pretty obvious
attempt at inciting harassment. And it's not just people with
public profiles harassment. It's just a reality when you're a
marginalized person who puts their opinion or words online. If
you're a woman, or a person of color or a
queer person who's listening, you've probably already dealt with it.
(01:50):
I know I've dealt with it, and it's awkward to
talk about, but writer Liz Lenz says that we need
to start talking about it. In her piece called When
the Mob Came for Me, she d tales what she's
learned from dealing with waves of intense harassment for daring
to be a woman with opinions online. Liz wants people
to know that becoming the target of an online harassment
campaign can happen to anyone, so it's important to have
(02:11):
a plan if it does. When I started doing this show,
I initially purposefully did not focus on harassment because I
was like, I want to write a or do a
thing about the Internet and women where it's not centered
around our negative experiences. But as that went on, it
was it was becoming something that it felt like I
was purposely ignoring, even though it's something that we all experience.
(02:34):
And so I you know, I read your piece when
a mob came for me, and you were writing about
your first experiences with online harassment, and I was wondering
if you could sort of talk us through what happened.
You know, I really identify with your journey talking about
harassment because I don't really like to talk about my harassment.
I find that a couple of things happen when you
do talk about your harassment. People Either I'll tell you
(02:56):
you're whining and it's not that bad, or they are like, well,
what do you do to deserve it? You know? Or
or the worst thing is when they're like, and then
what happened? You know? And you're like, oh, god, like
I don't want and then they're like what kind of
bomb threats to you? And then you're like, um, okay, weirdos.
(03:18):
I don't know it, just like it never feels like
there's a great way to have the conversation and um.
But but like you, I have been seeing we are
coming out of a year where I think, especially marginalized
journalists are exhausted. I know a handful of journalists who
(03:38):
have quit, are taking breaks because just the pressures of pandemic,
the intense harassment that they've received, and um and and
no breaks and everything. And it just felt like there
was this It felt like there was a moment where
I was like, we need to talk about this, we
need to have a conversation. And so you're right, I
(04:01):
wrote this thing, um that talked about my experiences. And
I just want to be very clear at the outset,
like there's a difference between criticism and harassment, Like you know,
telling me I'm wrong or that you hate my article,
it's okay, Like I don't consider that harassment. What I
consider harassment is you know, calling me horrible names, um,
(04:22):
telling me you want my kids to die, telling me
you want me to die, telling me you're gonna bomb
my house or sending me pictures of Peppe the Frog
raping me. That's what I consider harassment like and that
I feel like that's pretty I like, I don't. I
feel like there's a pretty clear line between two. I
don't know why we keep why. It's hard to have
(04:43):
that conversation. So anyway, now to finally answer your question, yes, um,
I was writing about my experiences. I live in Iowa, right,
you know, every four years I write about the caucuses
and some capacity. And that year sixteen, I was writing
about the CAUCUSUS for Vice and I was live tweeting,
(05:04):
you know, because that's the thing that journalists do. And
I was like, I'm gonna do it. And I only
had like a couple of thousand followers, and they were
all following me because I'd had a pretty successful mom
blog for a while, not like super famous, like solid
I'd say, like third tier college kind of uh mom blog.
(05:24):
It's like what you settled for when you don't get
into Harvard. I started tweeting my experience caucusing and in
that year, as we all know and I it was
you know, the Hillary versus Bernie. If you were on
political pockets of social media back then, you probably recall
that the presidential election could feel like a pretty polarizing
(05:45):
time to be online. There were palpable tensions between Bernie
Sanders supporters and Hillary Clinton supporters that could really feel
difficult to escape. And I have no political problems with
Bernie Sanders, but a supporter of his like eld at
me during the CAUCUSUS and this is Iowa, Like, we
don't yell at each other, we keep it inside and
(06:05):
then talk about you behind your back like it's and
like and so it was like straight aggressive and it
was so shocking to me, um that I was live
tweeting it. And he had said something like you're voting
with your vagina and I, you know, quit back, you know,
And it wasn't even that creative. I think somebody else
(06:26):
had said it better before. But you know, I was like, yeah,
America has been voting with its stick for two hundred
and forty years, like come on, man, and uh, you know,
I was like, chill out and and and and I
tweeted that and just it got picked up and used
as fodder and the Bernie Hillary wars and I was
(06:46):
getting you know, I deleted it since then, and I
encourage everybody to regularly delete their tweets. Um, but you know,
it was like like thousands and thousands of retweets and
and likes. You know, they were faved stars. Then was
back in the olden days, and uh and then you know,
(07:06):
and and and that's when I started. I got people
with my dans at emails, people being like, you know,
we're gonna, um, we're gonna call CPS on you to
have your kids taken away. And I don't you know,
I'm not going to attribute this to like one side
or the other. I think there's just trolls out in
the world and they like to harass people. But yeah,
(07:28):
I was. And that's when it was like it was.
It wasn't like it took things like I'd gotten criticism before,
you know, where it's like, look at this dumb bitch,
but like I hadn't gotten now your kids are going
to be taken away? And and then you know, and
and the toy six seen. So that's when my career
as a writer was really starting to take off, and
(07:51):
I was writing longer form pieces and it just became
a situation where every once in a while, like I
get like a weird letter, like I got like a
snail mail and you yeah, And the most disturbing one
was was just like five pages like white printer pages,
and somebody had handwritten out Bible verses on them, and
(08:14):
it was just like and it was just like, you know,
all the verses about like repent and you're going to out.
It's like I grew up like evangelical, like you can't
convert me. I already memorized all those Bible verses in Alana,
like I was in Bible Quiz. You can't. You can't Bible.
(08:35):
And but also it's like chilling, and I remember opening
the envelope and being like, you know, like scaring music
in the background, and and it's just and and like
stuff like that would trickle and trickle and trickle, and
then and finally a couple of things started to happen,
and you know again like I don't want to be like, oh,
(08:56):
like this one thing happened, because I think once you're
kind of on a radar, then like the then it
just comes back and comes back. As Lizzar's public profile
grew as she published bigger and bigger stories, so did
the level of harassment she faced, a couple of things
started to happen around is. I wrote some more high
(09:16):
profile pieces and then finally wrote a profile of Tucker Carlson,
which is like what a lot of people have known
me for. Um. I wrote it for the Columbia Journalism Review,
and after that it sparked a whole year of just waves.
It was I would like I liken it to like,
(09:37):
you know, like a tide. It would like flow in
and flow out, but there would always be a little trickle. Um.
So basically twenty een Um, the wave is out right now, fingers,
but like the tides out was but like that, but
like it just it sparked off this whole um just
(10:01):
harassment were like my phone was blowing up. I used
to use a Google number that got docsed. I was
getting like, um, you know, uh, it's hard to explain,
but like there's this like troll community thing where you know,
they used to use Peppe. Now they use like this
picture of a giant bugs bunny and they call it
(10:22):
like big chungis. It's just it's just dumb, right, and
but it's like and so I just get like pictures
and pictures of that, you know. I was also getting
you know, pictures of Peppy the front raping me like photoshopped,
you know, and it was just like you were coming
for you and and all of this and and like
it never ended because I think in that time I published,
(10:43):
I started publishing some like you know, bigger pieces. I
published a story they got a lot of attention about
my divorce, food in my divorce, and it was titled
I'm Never Cooking for a Man Again, which was like,
you know, it's like titles are always a little tongue
in cheek, but it was just an exploration of like food,
an emotional labor and marriage and and oh my god,
(11:04):
that like were super viral and and and just got
like a ship ton of shit. I've actually read it
and it's it's so touching and like personal and relatable.
And it's funny to me that that title was. I mean,
we we've all like like having with the piece. It is.
(11:26):
It makes so much sense. But I could see how
that title will be like enraging for people who were
already predisposed to think of you in this negative light.
But that's the troll thing, right, It's like just take
things at headline value and then use that to crap
on people, um, you know, and and I had that.
I also published a profile of Richard Spencer's divorce the Nazi.
(11:50):
That didn't help. Then I moderate in twenty nine, I
moderated a presidential forum and it was you know, I'll
say this about the forum, is we had there were
three moderators. Um. I was just one of them. UM
and they you know, they're both the other two moderators
(12:11):
lovely people both marginalized UM and and UM you know,
identify as queer in their own ways. And all of
the questions we had like co written together, and like
many organizations you know, had like vetted, and so I
was just really just reading off of a prompter. Here
(12:32):
was Liz grilling Biden at the forum. Also praised Vice
President Mike Parts as a decent guy asking the questions
if people want to know, that's also when Joe Biden
(12:55):
called me a real sweetheart because I I pushed him
ons and the you know, criminalization bills like that had
you know, put more queer people in dayl It's just
kind of how it happened. Joe like, no, it's like
facts and I had put because he was like, that's
not true. And I was like, well it is, so
could you could you just talk about it? And and so,
(13:17):
And as we were walking off the stage, he's like,
you're a real sweetheart. And I was like, I can't
believe the presiding. It was not like doing your job
as a moderator, right, and like that's the whole thing is,
like you know, I asked questions and I follow up
and like the please answer the question. I think that's
(13:38):
like yes, but like, uh, you know, and it was
you know, the power and balance. But after that, I
mean that I that also kicked off a huge intense
wave and that's when I started getting bomb threats and
um one of the other moderators was talking to me
the other day and after my peace on Harassment I published,
and he was like, you know, I'm never received the
(14:01):
same kind of harassment that you did, even though we
moderated at the same forum. He's like, He's like, it's
just because you're on the radar. Let's take a quick
break her back. Liz says that once you're on the
(14:25):
radar of a network of harassers online, anything that you
say can be used against you. For her, it was
a silly joke that she had made about online dating.
After a night out with friends and with that kind
of threat hanging over you, it can feel like it's
not worth it to show up as your full self
online because someone somewhere could inevitably take what everything you're
saying out of context to harass you. The thing that
(14:46):
they always cling to is this one joke I made.
It was I was I had said, and this happened,
but it was just like I was just joking about.
It was like a man on matched with me after
I told him I was a journalist. You know what's
he hiding? You know? At timed and it's not even
(15:09):
that funny. I think it was like a joke. I
like tweeted at like eleven PM after I've had like
drinks with friends, and I was like, oh, this is funny,
you know what I mean. It's like not, it's not
even It's just like okay, Liz, ha ha ha, you know.
And but like they screenshot that and every once in
a while and it'll just come back up and people
be like, did you do this? Did you ducks an
(15:31):
innocent man? And I'll be like, I don't even remember
his name, but yes, that is that is my joke.
Thank you like, it's not that, but that's the thing
that comes back up more often than anything else. It's
just it's it's weird. I don't know, it's so interesting
how that one harmless joke that you know, I mean,
(15:54):
I've seen that screenshot so and you know, I can
only imagine what it's like for you being like, oh,
they're they're holy, this this silly joke I made back
up again. It will never go away. It's just like
I just deserve better enemies. I'm always like I have
made first of all, Like, first of all, I've made
way worse jokes, way worse. Like do you hear how
(16:18):
I'm talking Like I'm I say dumb ship all the time,
just constantly literally bite me on literally any other dumb thing.
I'm sad, but like and then they're they're all like
expect me to be ashamed of it. They're like did
you say this? And I'm like, I shure, and they're
like did you talx some man? And I'm like, I
(16:40):
sure didn't because it's a joke, y'all. And it's and
it's funny because like, you know, that was one of
the things that I that you know, like a lot
of this truly culture is like, you know, the liberals
can't take a joke. That's why we're gonna like, you know,
make fun of them in like tamp then this is
(17:01):
a really nasty way, you know. It's like it's like
a generation of men who never learned that they weren't funny.
Oh yeah, and it's just like this, it's actually not
these are not These are not jokes. Like I have
I have friends with the comedian Josh Combleman, and I
was like, you should perform a service where people can
(17:22):
ask you is this a joke or not? And you're like,
you know, it's like a five year old you know,
is this a joke? Nope, Sorry, that's just a fart sound.
It's not a joke, you know, Is this a joke? No,
you just made a fat joke. You know, You're just
you're just making a comment about somebody's weight. Not a joke,
not a joke, just some f phobia. Even that joke
(17:45):
does illustrate how I guess I feel that on Twitter especially,
we've gotten to a point where it's but bad, Like
we're not able to have actual conversations or even just
communicate because every it's everything is so weaponized and taken
in bad faith. Anybody, but you're You're what you tweeted
(18:05):
was obviously just a joke, you're kidding around, But there's
this assumption that anything anything that you say. I just
feel that Twitter is so charged people. Once you're on
someone's radar, they're looking for anything anything that you say
can be used to be like see, she's the worst. Yeah,
you know, it's so funny because that that thing I
wrote about online. Mom's part of it was an interview
(18:26):
with the journalist and author or Talia lab laban and Um,
who's who helped me through that year of um of
harassment and as you just really just because she has
experienced it, she wrote this book Cultural Warlords, where she,
you know, digs into these communities online, communities of hate
and so um and so. But the funny thing about it,
(18:51):
and and in that interview, you know, she's very clear,
like she's very good at parsing the nuance of what's
harassment and what criticism because again, like people are allowed
to criticize, like and I'm gonna make mistakes and people
are allowed to call out those mistakes. And I never
want to be you know, like nailing myself to a
(19:13):
cross just because like maybe I sucked up a column,
you know, and I'm going to like they're not all
gonna be winners. Um, I'm going to fail. And uh.
And you know, she does a really good job like
pointing out like people saying that Andrew Cuomal, you know,
(19:33):
harassed them sexually, that's not an online mob. Like that's
just people talking about their experiences and saying this isn't okay.
An online mob is you know, putting a picture of
somebody's house inside across hears and saying, you know, I'm
building pipe bombs. Like that's that's the difference. And so
(19:54):
but like that that that interview was quote tweeted or
like somebody quote tweeted it. It's Glenn Greenwald quote tweeted
it and was like, oh, look at the you know,
he was basically like, look at these people that don't
know the difference between harassment and criticism, and was like,
if you were functionally literate, like you would have read
(20:17):
it and know that we have like three paragraphs, you know,
parsing out that nuance. But again, like it's what you're saying,
it's just bad faith. And once you're on somebody's radar
and they don't like you everything that you do, They're
just gonna hate. Yeah, it sucks. I mean what what
does it feel? What does that feel like for you? Like,
(20:39):
what does it feel like to be facing that kind
of a charged online environment just to do your job
every day? Um? It was hard in the beginning. Um.
There's something my my therapist likes to likes to remind
me of is that, like you level up, you know
what I mean like is that as you go through
(21:00):
life and as you become more successful, you know, you
have kind of have these experiences like you have to
grow into right, and so yes, that first year of
intense harassments are really hard. Um it felt like being
in a tunnel, just like I couldn't everything was closing
in all around me. And you know, I also live
(21:21):
in US. I don't live in a big Well, it's
the second largest city in Iowa. People are always like
it's the big city. Yes, it's the it's the big
city if you're from like you know, a like fair
Field or something. But if it's three hundred thousand people,
it's not that big. Like uh and uh and and
(21:43):
something that happened has happened too, is like, you know,
I get emails from people in town and you know
or or don't do this to people, by the way,
but people like to make me aware when other people
in town are discussing me on Facebook, and I'm like,
please don't because then it makes me scared to go
(22:04):
to the grocery store. But yes, people have like, yeah,
I remember very specifically one woman in town who's a
pretty high profile who had like a whole Facebook post
discussing my body and how I looked as I moderated
that forum, you know, calling me showy and trashy and
like I was just trying to flaunt myself and like
(22:25):
implying that I was like a giant slut. I was
wearing like it doesn't matter what I was wearing, like,
but but I was wearing like, you know, just like
a standard and like newscaster dress. It was bright yellow
because I can wear yellow. I'm like one of the
few white people who can do it. It's a tough
(22:49):
color pul and it's my one skill and y'all can
just eat it, you know, and that kind of stuff.
It makes you feel like you can't be an honor this,
you know, I'll go for runs and people will honk
at me and it's like, while am I getting is that?
My friend? Is that? Is that like a car full
(23:10):
of dudes? You know? That? Are you know? It's just
like you don't know and it's scary. Or you go
the grocery store and people will be like, oh, are
you the writer? And you're like, maybe are you the
one who participated in talking about what a slut? I
was like, you know, it's like I don't, and it's
and most people are nice, and most people are good actually,
(23:31):
and most people are generous. I think this, I believe this.
But when when you're in that harassment zone, and especially
when things are really intense, you know that it's usually over.
The intensity is over by like a day, two days.
But anyway, like you know, it's usually only intense for
a couple of days. But it feels like you're in
(23:52):
a tunnel. It feels like you can turn everything off.
You can turn your phone off, you can turn your
internet off. And that's I do recommend that when things
are bad, log off, don't tweak through up, just log op.
You can't win, stay away, have some friends monitor it
for you, just to let you know if there's anything.
But even if that's happening, you don't know because if
(24:13):
they're like targeting where you live, or you're like, what's safe?
If the door knocks, You're like, is that? What is that? Where?
Do you know? In the most intense times, you know,
I was seeing posts like I live thirty minutes from
her town? Should I go there? What? You know? It
(24:33):
is terrifying. And I I am a single mom. I
have two kids and not have two dogs. But it's
not an accident that I have two dogs, right, Like,
it's directly related to some of my fears about um,
you know, living alone and in being a target of
harassment and so um uh and and yes and so
(24:58):
it feels like being in a tunnel. One of the
things I used I did in the before times when
the harassment would get bad, um is I would just
log off, you know, tell my friends like, don't you
take take my Twitter pass or change it for a while,
you know, do all this, and then I would go,
don't like Marcus theaters, don't get mad at me, but
(25:19):
sneak little bottles of that cheap setter home home wine
in and then get a big popcorn and then just
sit in a movie theater. So it just was like,
I'm safe because nobody with me. I'm you know, I'm
nobody can keeping, nobody knows I'm like seeing this movie
and um, yeah we're just you know, go to a
bar and sit outside or whatever. But yes, it does.
(25:42):
It feels like wow. People might be thinking, you know,
oh well, I don't write about politics, so I'm not
like X y Z kind of person, so this can
never happen to me. But something that you write into
your piece that I think is important to pull out
you right, people want to attribute this hate to one thing,
one moment, or one time that I messed up, one
story I filed. I think people do that because they
(26:03):
want to feel safe. They want to think it will
never happen to them. If you can blame me somehow,
then you can distance yourself from it all. And that
one nugget I think is so important because I do
think there probably are people right now who are listening
to you speak and they're like, oh, well, that will
never happen to me because I'm insert thing here. And
I think that was a real change for me. Was
(26:24):
what I realized getting on, getting on the radar of
people who want to make your life miserable online and
offline as well. It's not one thing you did right,
and so it's important for everyone to understand that that
this could be any of us. I was randomly just
talking to somebody for a story I wrote last year,
(26:45):
and he was like, he was telling me how his son,
who is a black teenage boy in town, was just
getting getting that same kind of hate because he just
posted a picture of himself with his girlfriend, and how
a troll army found that he just existed, like just existed.
(27:06):
Um and it just waves and waves and waves, and
you know, and and and since posting that, you know,
I've heard from people who are like, I'm a school
board member and one time I spoke up about guns
in school, you know, and like I think, actually, I
think anti gun activists get a lot of this kind
(27:28):
of harassment. But it's just like you can be a
school board member. Somebody reached out to me to tell
me that when they were a team, they started an
lgbt Q club in their high school. There's a couple
of years ago and um and and got targeted and
are still targeted. And they're just like they're just like
(27:48):
a human and you know, not high profile, like probably
not even on Twitter. I didn't ask, but like just
like you just existed, um, and and you got this
kind of hate. Um. It's yes, you don't have to
be high profile and obnoxious. And I think that like me, Um,
I'm not that high profile. Let's not let's not get excited, um,
(28:13):
but like yes, you just have to exist in a
way that people don't like, you know, trans people get
this kind of hate. And that was you know, that
was actually one of the motivating reasons where I really
wanted to talk about it because I have um friends
who are trans who are getting a lot of this
harassment just for existing. And I made the conscious decision
(28:36):
not to interview one of them because I didn't want
to put more of a target on their back. Um.
But like yeah, just like just like living your life
and being happy if you do so, you know, and
you get on the radar, like that's it's I mean,
that's it, it's over. You know, there's a journalist and
(28:57):
messaging right now, who's you know, like maybe like four
D followers, Like she writes about sports, but because she's
a woman who writes about sports, she's like I get
She's like, I'm being in a really intense tor askment.
I think that's a good point that like it seems
to be always people who are marginalized until if you're
(29:18):
a woman, a woman of color, L T t Q,
Like it seems like it's much worse for us when
we put our opinions out there. Like I noticed, Um,
this was one of the reasons where I was like,
I have to talk about harassment because it's getting to
be too much. Uh. You mentioned Glenn Greenwald. A few
weeks ago, there was a USA Today piece where a
intern had published her first byeline. Her name is Bretta Smith,
(29:42):
and it was a co byline with another author, Will Careless,
who was a white man, and it was so interesting
to me. So Glenn Greenwald retweeted it was like, I
hope you're like some mean tweet. It was over to
his over a million followers. Not like his followers are
not like the most generous people on the internet, Like
(30:03):
if you're making the conscious decision to follow him as
a person and his personal brand is not like it's
not like you know, kindness, generosity and light more. After
a quick break, let's get right back into it. We
(30:29):
talk a lot about free speech online, what it is,
and who has it, but we need to make room
to talk about what happens when marginalized voices are pushed
off of social media because the harassment has gotten so bad.
And this is ultimately the point of this kind of harassment,
to make people feel like speaking up and putting their
opinions out there is just ultimately not worth it. To
make women and other marginalized voices shut up and just
(30:51):
stop talking. The silencing effect it has can be real,
And this is something that Liz wants men to understand.
I do not think these men need to stop talking.
I mean, I would like it if they talked less,
but that's my own personal decision, has no reflection on
the constitution or laws that I would like to see
(31:11):
it changed. Um, But like I, you know, nobody's saying
you can't talk. But what they are saying is there
is a difference between when you talk and when I talk.
When you talk, maybe people quote tweet you until you're
a potato brain. Fine, When I talk, people tell me
(31:32):
they're going to kill my kids. And that's the difference.
And you know that's and and there is a silencing effect,
and that's the point, Like, the point is the silencing effect.
The point is the fear. The point is to make
you look over your shoulder, to make you think twice
before you have an opinion. And and it's that culture
(31:52):
of silence and that culture of fear that is bred.
And I know, I know women who are afraid of
doing things, of poking their heads. I never learned there's
something deeply wrong with me. So it actually makes me boulder.
It makes me me like, no, you don't get to
(32:13):
dictate the terms on which I live my life and
on how I write and so but I'm not saying
there's a wrong way to be. You have to live
the life that feels good and safe to you. So
I'm not. But it makes me sad, you know, because
I do know there are voices we do not hear
because of this fear. And that's the silencing and that's
(32:35):
the thing we need to be talking about. And that's
the thing that I think is interesting, right, that who
gets defended and who gets attacked? Right, You're right, like
you know, quote tweeting the intern and telling them they
did a bad job when it's obvious it's probably just assigned.
You know, it's a code byline with another man, like
(32:55):
and if you had a problem with the peace, then
don't attack, like just say I have problem with this piece,
Like I have a problem. Don't tell that person they're
bad at there, like there is a why and like
and and and I actually think that like being harassed
makes me a little bit more of an empathetic person,
because I it is and you know, it is tempting
(33:16):
for everybody to like think of like a celebrity or
somebody who's more high profile, not as a person. Right,
You're like, oh, well, you're just an image. So now
I'm going to just talk about like how you look
on the internet. But it does make me think twice
about like how I talk about people and how I
how I criticize things, because you know there there is
(33:37):
a difference, and there is a line. And um yeah,
and I think too, if your high profile enough, you
should know that by now, and you should you know,
use your power for good not evil. I always, you know,
try to think like I punch up right, like hold
power accountable. And that's another thing. I think. It's always
(33:57):
like she's always like I know your power so that
you don't abuse your power. So important, Yeah, She's like,
who are you gonna fight and how are you going
to fight it? You know, She's like, you need to
be very conscious of those things so that you don't
you know, so you don't hurt anybody. You talked about
the role that Talia, who I loved, played when you
(34:18):
were harassed, and that it wasn't just you know, keep
your head up girl, it was here's what you need
to know. So I wonder, Um, I saw your tweet
about things that you thought that anybody who was on
Twitter should do to make sure that they are protecting
themselves from being targeted by this kind of harassment. Can
you tell us a bit about what you would suggest
people do to keep themselves safe. Yeah, very practical advice
(34:42):
and a practical Midwestern mom, so I like practical advice.
So here's what I think. Number one, A lot of
people may not know this, but there are websites, hundreds
tons roots of websites across the Internet that scrub your
data and then sell it to anybody who's well to
pay for it, and that's how you basically that's the
(35:02):
number one way people get docked. Um. There are services
that that will scrub that data off the internet. For you.
UM and one of the services that I have used
that Talia recommended to me. I think it was Talia.
It was either that or it was Christopher Matthias, who's
an incredible reporter who reports on extremism. One of them
(35:24):
told me very early on, UM used delete me. This
is not a commercial. Don't get money from them, Like
I just although the tweet did so well, they like,
now if you use the promo code l y z L.
She didn't dropped the promo code. Yeah. By the way,
I don't want to brag, but like, I'm a promo code,
(35:46):
so like I just live in that promo code life. Uh, superficous.
I told my kids and like, I'm a promo code.
Treat me with respect. And they're like, we're thirsty place,
we just want some water. Um, where are you talking
like that? But yes, delete me is a great service.
(36:09):
There's other ones out there. Delete me is the one
I've been using for years. There is a promo code
for twenty percent off. It's a significant amount of money
h L y z L if you use it. UM
and then UM other things too. You know, if you
if you have kids, get all their pictures off the internet.
Now just do it, uh, you know it, Uh, scrub
(36:32):
your Facebook. Their services out there, none of them are
super great, so there's not one I really could recommend.
I just google around, scrub your Facebook. A lot of
TV news stations have their newscasters have to facebooks. You know,
your private one and your public one. UM, consider that
if you like to use Facebook. I think Facebook is
(36:53):
necessary for journalists, especially if you report on your own community.
You kind of need to see what's going on. But
if you have the auctory of deleting Facebook, just deleteed. UM.
The thing with Instagram is, um, I have a private
one in a public one. Now I recommend that, UM,
or just keeping your Instagram private because you don't want
(37:17):
people finding pictures of you and like photo, you know
what I mean, like in photo and like being like,
oh she went to It's just everything will be taken
in bad faith. UM, and you never know the thing
that people are going to object to, like a stupid joke,
right Like, UM, I say, automatically delete your tweets. UM,
(37:39):
it might feel sad, do it? Like, just delete your
tweets pretty regularly, tweet delete dot net. It's a free service.
You're just like you know, auto start, auto deleting. Um.
Those are some pretty practical things you can do that. Um.
It won't stop harassment, but it will protect you from
people knowing where you live. UM, for people knowing the
(38:01):
faces of your children or your other loved ones. When
I wrote about Richard Spencer, he went on, you know
that that like uh, you know, like the chum bucket
of YouTube shows where he was saying he was saying,
my the last name that I use is my married
last name, even though I'm divorced. Now, I just like, well,
(38:23):
last names are the same. It's just too exhausting to
go back that he was, you know, using my maid
name and my last name, and I I started worrying
about my parents, you know, I was like, oh God,
now they're going to find my parents. It just makes
it harder for people to find that kind of stuff.
And usually like if they can't find it pretty easily,
(38:44):
then it just it goes away after a couple of hours.
In most cases, it will go away after a couple
of hours. But there is something my agent said the
last time I was going through some intense harassment is um,
you know, She's like, this happens if you are successful,
if you are good at your job, like she represents
(39:05):
a lot of female journalists, and she's like, it never
gets easier. So just find ways, find tools, find people
to help you, good friends, you know, because the impulse
is to always feel like, oh did I screw up?
You know, especially if you're not like a narcissist, You're like, oh,
I must be doing something to deserve this. Nine times
(39:27):
out attend you didn't. Nobody deserves to get that threats
and nobody deserves that kind of stuff, no one. Um
and uh, you know but like nine times out of
ten you didn't do anything wrong, you know, but have
friends in your life who would tell you like, yeah,
that was an offensive joke. You screwed up. Deleted and
(39:48):
go dark for a while, you know, Like just get
people in your life you can help you and um,
and reach out, Like if you're in like a really
going through some harassment you don't know how to handle it,
like reach out, Like my d m s are open. Um,
sometimes I close them, but um, they're open now. Reach
out to other journalists. Um. And and that's another thing too,
(40:09):
is if you see somebody going through something like that,
reaching out to them, let's is really just saying like hey,
I see you, I see that this is happening. I'm
so sorry, you know, or you know, or just like
I'm here for you. I like you. You know, Um,
that's you know, that's good. That's good enough, even if
(40:32):
you know, if you even even if you're like whom
the article you wrote did, current of suck. Nobody deserves
death threats. Nobody deserves death threats, and and yes, and
so those are those are some practical things that I think,
as much as I hate seeing anybody be going through
target harassment on social media, something that I have been
really kind of proud to see lately is but one
(40:55):
how many individual other journalists are like, we support you.
You know that a community response I think is beautiful.
And then to something I think is really important is
the institutional response. And so when someone is harassed, when
their outlet puts out a statement that is we support
the good work of this journalists. We you know, because
I think for for a long time, if someone was
(41:16):
being harassed, they would be calling you know, the outlet
they work for, and maybe they would be fired. It
would be like, oh we want to cut ties. Maybe
they would you know, not stand by them I'm I'm
kind of hardened to see situations where you know, your
NBC's or ABC's put out statements standing up for their reporters.
And you know, I will say, like, I have had
(41:37):
institutions throw me under the bus, and I have had
institutions stick up for me. I will I will say
the Columbia Journalism Review has been a staunch supporter of
my work, and I I I think that Kyle Pope
over there has been amazing in the harassment that I
(42:00):
have received, you know, for him, I have I have
profiled Alan Derschwitz, Tucker Carlson, Crystal Is Seth Abramson. And
if you think that there wasn't pushed back from those articles,
you're wrong. Grutchen Carlson, that was a weird one. Um.
And and every single time they have stood by first
(42:22):
of all, you know, institutionally they provide rigorous fact checking
so that everything would be airtight, and and then stood
by me, you know, through through the waves because they
I don't know, I've never been like, Kyle, what have
you done it? But it's um, I think it's because
they know and they value good work, and yes, and
so it is encouraging to see when institutions get it right.
(42:47):
I hate it when institutions get it wrong, but um,
there are some good examples of things. Let's if we
focus on the positive. I do, and I think that
knowing that your institution has your back makes you a
or journalists makes you better at your job. Like I'm
more willing, you know, to say bolder things or to
write bigger stories for them because I know I can
(43:11):
trust them, that I know that you know they'll have
a lawyer ready and they'll defend me, and they'll be
proud of me. Media companies and outlets are starting to
catch up. When journalists like Taylor Lorenz and some men
Cam were harassed online for doing their jobs, their outlets
put out statements sticking up for them, and some outlets
have gone even further. Last week, the sports site defect
(43:34):
or Media announced a new policy that would offer support
to journalists if they found themselves at the center of
a harassment campaign, including a subscription to delete me, safe
housing for them and their families should their homes become unsafe,
and assigning someone to temporarily manage their social media accounts.
Not only is this a good way to support staff,
but it just acknowledges that online harassment is a real
(43:55):
thing that staff might have to deal with instead of
just pretending that it's something just happening online. It acknowledges
the reality that aline harassment can deeply impact our real world,
our real work, and real lives. And if people are marginalized,
the kind of harassment they faith will be worse, you know,
talking with other men and then get this kind of
(44:16):
harassment too. But I was talking with another writer just
the other day about this, and he was like, Yeah,
I've gone through harassment cycles before. He's like, but I
don't think they inspire in me the fear that they
inspire in you, because you're already afraid to walk alone
at night, right, Like, these are already fears that you have,
(44:39):
and they they get compounded by your fears online. And
and this is not all in your head, right. Fear
is a gift. To read The Gift of Fear. Everybody
read The Gift of Fear. It's great. Book teaches you
to trust yourself, like, um, trust your gut and um
I teach that to my daughter, like, trust your gut.
(44:59):
You know, if something feels weird, If an adult feels weird,
get away from them, and sometimes she'll be like you
feel weird, not fair, but fine, go to your round.
Uh it's but yes and so like yeah, but yes,
like it compounds the already precarious situation of existing in
(45:20):
the world and um, which is you know, so much
harder for marginalized people. Um. And it's you know, start
in your head like this, like you know, racism and
homophobias institutionalized and so yes, yes, so it is different definitely, um.
And it is encouraging when there you do find places
(45:44):
that's poor and they're and they're just doing like their jobs,
like you know, to like say like we have an
employee and they did this story and we're fine with it.
But like just I think because we've all just been
so reilroaded by capital that when it does its job,
like it's, uh, we're like thanks mom. Yes, our standards
(46:06):
are very low. So it's like it's like, oh, you
didn't you didn't toss me like the trash, like great,
thank you. But no, I do think CDR has supported
me and my work in some really powerful ways. And
I don't think that that's nothing and I don't think
(46:28):
it's a mistake that I have some of my best
work I've written for them, right and so, um it's
makes good business sense Stitcher your employee as well. What
is your advice to underrepresented people, women, people of color
who want to be I want to put their opinions
out into the world, whether as a writer like yourself,
either just as a social media user. But are understandably scared.
(46:53):
Um yeah, you know, I say obviously, like you need
to live the life that you're happiest with, so you know,
like so I I don't think that I can tell
you what that looks like, and nobody can, but you know,
and if you're scared, like, yeah, think about that, right,
(47:14):
like do the work. But there are some simple practical
stuffs you can take now even if you're just like
I'm not famous, nobody cares about what I say. Who cares?
Live Like you're gonna be famous? Start leveling up and
start taking care of your ship now. Get scrub your stuff,
you know, lockdown your Instagram's, um, you know, figure that
(47:37):
kind of ship out, you know, clear do whatever you
need to do with Facebook, which is a nightmare. Um
and and start doing that now before it gets that
And then I think that that gives you a place
of strength from which to operate and then have like
a game plan. You know, I'm a person who loves
a plan, so you know, just and having a plan
(48:01):
for Okay, if this does happen, here's what I'm gonna do.
I'm gonna log off. I'm gonna have this friend do
this when I'm this friend. I've had friends monitor of
my email before. You know, just because like sign out,
no notifications, can you handle it? Um and and have
those plans in place? I think it gives you a
position of strength to operate from and um only right.
(48:23):
By the way, here's another tip if you're if we're
talking about writing only right for editors that have your back,
and you'll know, like, do not write for an editor
who is going to let you publish something shitty. I
I used to work as an editor for a literary
magazine and there were times when I would be reading
(48:44):
an essay that was other love otherwise lovely, but had
like one or two sentences in it that you know,
might be fat, shame me, might be a little bit
not great. And you know, my my comment to the
author was always, we're taking this out because it brings
down the quality of the piece and you're writing right,
(49:06):
it's and and but you know there there are websites
the x O Jane used to do this that would
take people's worst thoughts and impulses put them online, and
then they become targets. And then they'd be like, why
did that happen to me? It's like, well, you've wrote
something terrible in a bad way, and not just once again.
(49:28):
People don't deserve death threats, but um and I do
think we don't. That was like the Internet in the
early aughts a little bit. I feel like people have
most editors will have your back, but don't write for
editors who are going to throw you under the bus,
who are gonna, you know, exploit your marginalized identity for clicks. UM,
(49:49):
be in charge of yourself and your representation. Don't be
afraid to walk away from UM stories if you get
a bad vibe, or editors if you get a bad vibe,
It's fine. I've done a couple of times, m Um,
just because I'm like, I don't I respect you, but
I feel like we're not vibing on this piece, and
it's okay to walk away from it. UM. Things like that. UM.
(50:12):
I also just like never advocate anybody living a life
of fear. And so if you're in that place, if
you feel like all you're doing is operating from a
place of fear, you're not. You're not living your best life.
So what do you need to do to not be there?
Doesn't mean getting off Twitter? You know, you can have
a life like not online. It's possible. Lots of people have,
(50:35):
you know, wonderful writing careers and are not on the Internet.
People exist not on the internet. Um, things happen not
on internet. So find the life that you need to
live and lead and don't live in a place of fear. Please,
nobody wants that for you. And don't be afraid to
reach out to other people. Um, you know, farm your
(50:55):
community and to find the people who who love you
and let us see you succeed and really, you know,
lean on them. That's beautiful. Where can folks keep up
with all the amazing stuff that you're doing? Um? Oh
like a cancel culture warrior. I also have a newsletter.
(51:18):
It is um it's just Liz dot sub stack dot com,
l y Z dot sub stack dot com and it's
called men yell at me. Uh they do. People are like,
why do you I'm like, I don't know, why do
they yell? Uh? Don't ask me? But that that's my
newsletter so um. I Also I also have a Twitter
(51:41):
It's at l y z. I also have a website
lis lends dot com, um and you can find me
all of those places. If you enjoyed this podcast, please
help us grow by subscribing. Got a story about an
(52:06):
interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi.
We'd love to hear from you at Hello at tango
dot com. Disinformed is brought to you by There Are
No Girls on the Internet. It's a production of I
Heart Radio and unbost Creative Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.
Tory Harrison is our supervising producer and engineer. Michael Lamtto
is our contributing producer. I'm your host Bridget Tod. For
(52:26):
more great podcasts, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
You're listening to Disinformed, a mini series from There Are
No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. Nobody likes
talking about online harassment. When I first started the podcast
There Are No Girls on the Internet, I specifically wanted
to talk about all the cool things that women, queer folks,
black folks, and other underrepresented voices are doing on the Internet.
(00:26):
And as much as I wanted to focus on the positive,
the harassment we face online is difficult to ignore. Earlier
this month, Chrissie Teagan left Twitter. This was kind of
a big deal. She's someone who was once called the
Mayor of Twitter because she's such a prolific user. She
spoke at Twitter headquarters for a company event and on Instagram.
She made it clear that she didn't blame Twitter for
(00:47):
feeling like she had to leave the platform. She said
that Twitter staff had actually reached out and worked with
her and her team to deal with the barrage of
harassment she faces, and I'm sure they did. Chrissy Tigan
is rich and famous and well connected. What about the
rest of us who aren't. We've seen a wave of
online harassment come for women journalists too. On Fox News,
(01:07):
Tucker Carlson did two nights of segments pretty much just
making fun of New York Times Internet culture reporter Taylor
Lawrenz for, as he put it, pretending to be oppressed
after she tweeted for International Women's Day, please consider supporting
women and during online harassment. After Times reporter Rachel Abrams
did a report on the conservative news network own the network,
(01:28):
bataliated by putting her personal cell phone number on the
air and encouraging viewers to contact her, a pretty obvious
attempt at inciting harassment. And it's not just people with
public profiles harassment. It's just a reality when you're a
marginalized person who puts their opinion or words online. If
you're a woman, or a person of color or a
queer person who's listening, you've probably already dealt with it.
(01:50):
I know I've dealt with it, and it's awkward to
talk about, but writer Liz Lenz says that we need
to start talking about it. In her piece called When
the Mob Came for Me, she d tales what she's
learned from dealing with waves of intense harassment for daring
to be a woman with opinions online. Liz wants people
to know that becoming the target of an online harassment
campaign can happen to anyone, so it's important to have
(02:11):
a plan if it does. When I started doing this show,
I initially purposefully did not focus on harassment because I
was like, I want to write a or do a
thing about the Internet and women where it's not centered
around our negative experiences. But as that went on, it
was it was becoming something that it felt like I
was purposely ignoring, even though it's something that we all experience.
(02:34):
And so I you know, I read your piece when
a mob came for me, and you were writing about
your first experiences with online harassment, and I was wondering
if you could sort of talk us through what happened.
You know, I really identify with your journey talking about
harassment because I don't really like to talk about my harassment.
I find that a couple of things happen when you
do talk about your harassment. People Either I'll tell you
(02:56):
you're whining and it's not that bad, or they are like, well,
what do you do to deserve it? You know? Or
or the worst thing is when they're like, and then
what happened? You know? And you're like, oh, god, like
I don't want and then they're like what kind of
bomb threats to you? And then you're like, um, okay, weirdos.
(03:18):
I don't know it, just like it never feels like
there's a great way to have the conversation and um.
But but like you, I have been seeing we are
coming out of a year where I think, especially marginalized
journalists are exhausted. I know a handful of journalists who
(03:38):
have quit, are taking breaks because just the pressures of pandemic,
the intense harassment that they've received, and um and and
no breaks and everything. And it just felt like there
was this It felt like there was a moment where
I was like, we need to talk about this, we
need to have a conversation. And so you're right, I
(04:01):
wrote this thing, um that talked about my experiences. And
I just want to be very clear at the outset,
like there's a difference between criticism and harassment, Like you know,
telling me I'm wrong or that you hate my article,
it's okay, Like I don't consider that harassment. What I
consider harassment is you know, calling me horrible names, um,
(04:22):
telling me you want my kids to die, telling me
you want me to die, telling me you're gonna bomb
my house or sending me pictures of Peppe the Frog
raping me. That's what I consider harassment like and that
I feel like that's pretty I like, I don't. I
feel like there's a pretty clear line between two. I
don't know why we keep why. It's hard to have
(04:43):
that conversation. So anyway, now to finally answer your question, yes, um,
I was writing about my experiences. I live in Iowa, right,
you know, every four years I write about the caucuses
and some capacity. And that year sixteen, I was writing
about the CAUCUSUS for Vice and I was live tweeting,
(05:04):
you know, because that's the thing that journalists do. And
I was like, I'm gonna do it. And I only
had like a couple of thousand followers, and they were
all following me because I'd had a pretty successful mom
blog for a while, not like super famous, like solid
I'd say, like third tier college kind of uh mom blog.
(05:24):
It's like what you settled for when you don't get
into Harvard. I started tweeting my experience caucusing and in
that year, as we all know and I it was
you know, the Hillary versus Bernie. If you were on
political pockets of social media back then, you probably recall
that the presidential election could feel like a pretty polarizing
(05:45):
time to be online. There were palpable tensions between Bernie
Sanders supporters and Hillary Clinton supporters that could really feel
difficult to escape. And I have no political problems with
Bernie Sanders, but a supporter of his like eld at
me during the CAUCUSUS and this is Iowa, Like, we
don't yell at each other, we keep it inside and
(06:05):
then talk about you behind your back like it's and
like and so it was like straight aggressive and it
was so shocking to me, um that I was live
tweeting it. And he had said something like you're voting
with your vagina and I, you know, quit back, you know,
And it wasn't even that creative. I think somebody else
(06:26):
had said it better before. But you know, I was like, yeah,
America has been voting with its stick for two hundred
and forty years, like come on, man, and uh, you know,
I was like, chill out and and and and I
tweeted that and just it got picked up and used
as fodder and the Bernie Hillary wars and I was
(06:46):
getting you know, I deleted it since then, and I
encourage everybody to regularly delete their tweets. Um, but you know,
it was like like thousands and thousands of retweets and
and likes. You know, they were faved stars. Then was
back in the olden days, and uh and then you know,
(07:06):
and and and that's when I started. I got people
with my dans at emails, people being like, you know,
we're gonna, um, we're gonna call CPS on you to
have your kids taken away. And I don't you know,
I'm not going to attribute this to like one side
or the other. I think there's just trolls out in
the world and they like to harass people. But yeah,
(07:28):
I was. And that's when it was like it was.
It wasn't like it took things like I'd gotten criticism before,
you know, where it's like, look at this dumb bitch,
but like I hadn't gotten now your kids are going
to be taken away? And and then you know, and
and the toy six seen. So that's when my career
as a writer was really starting to take off, and
(07:51):
I was writing longer form pieces and it just became
a situation where every once in a while, like I
get like a weird letter, like I got like a
snail mail and you yeah, And the most disturbing one
was was just like five pages like white printer pages,
and somebody had handwritten out Bible verses on them, and
(08:14):
it was just like and it was just like, you know,
all the verses about like repent and you're going to out.
It's like I grew up like evangelical, like you can't
convert me. I already memorized all those Bible verses in Alana,
like I was in Bible Quiz. You can't. You can't Bible.
(08:35):
And but also it's like chilling, and I remember opening
the envelope and being like, you know, like scaring music
in the background, and and it's just and and like
stuff like that would trickle and trickle and trickle, and
then and finally a couple of things started to happen,
and you know again like I don't want to be like, oh,
(08:56):
like this one thing happened, because I think once you're
kind of on a radar, then like the then it
just comes back and comes back. As Lizzar's public profile
grew as she published bigger and bigger stories, so did
the level of harassment she faced, a couple of things
started to happen around is. I wrote some more high
(09:16):
profile pieces and then finally wrote a profile of Tucker Carlson,
which is like what a lot of people have known
me for. Um. I wrote it for the Columbia Journalism Review,
and after that it sparked a whole year of just waves.
It was I would like I liken it to like,
(09:37):
you know, like a tide. It would like flow in
and flow out, but there would always be a little trickle. Um.
So basically twenty een Um, the wave is out right now, fingers,
but like the tides out was but like that, but
like it just it sparked off this whole um just
(10:01):
harassment were like my phone was blowing up. I used
to use a Google number that got docsed. I was
getting like, um, you know, uh, it's hard to explain,
but like there's this like troll community thing where you know,
they used to use Peppe. Now they use like this
picture of a giant bugs bunny and they call it
(10:22):
like big chungis. It's just it's just dumb, right, and
but it's like and so I just get like pictures
and pictures of that, you know. I was also getting
you know, pictures of Peppy the front raping me like photoshopped,
you know, and it was just like you were coming
for you and and all of this and and like
it never ended because I think in that time I published,
(10:43):
I started publishing some like you know, bigger pieces. I
published a story they got a lot of attention about
my divorce, food in my divorce, and it was titled
I'm Never Cooking for a Man Again, which was like,
you know, it's like titles are always a little tongue
in cheek, but it was just an exploration of like food,
an emotional labor and marriage and and oh my god,
(11:04):
that like were super viral and and and just got
like a ship ton of shit. I've actually read it
and it's it's so touching and like personal and relatable.
And it's funny to me that that title was. I mean,
we we've all like like having with the piece. It is.
(11:26):
It makes so much sense. But I could see how
that title will be like enraging for people who were
already predisposed to think of you in this negative light.
But that's the troll thing, right, It's like just take
things at headline value and then use that to crap
on people, um, you know, and and I had that.
I also published a profile of Richard Spencer's divorce the Nazi.
(11:50):
That didn't help. Then I moderate in twenty nine, I
moderated a presidential forum and it was you know, I'll
say this about the forum, is we had there were
three moderators. Um. I was just one of them. UM
and they you know, they're both the other two moderators
(12:11):
lovely people both marginalized UM and and UM you know,
identify as queer in their own ways. And all of
the questions we had like co written together, and like
many organizations you know, had like vetted, and so I
was just really just reading off of a prompter. Here
(12:32):
was Liz grilling Biden at the forum. Also praised Vice
President Mike Parts as a decent guy asking the questions
if people want to know, that's also when Joe Biden
(12:55):
called me a real sweetheart because I I pushed him
ons and the you know, criminalization bills like that had
you know, put more queer people in dayl It's just
kind of how it happened. Joe like, no, it's like
facts and I had put because he was like, that's
not true. And I was like, well it is, so
could you could you just talk about it? And and so,
(13:17):
And as we were walking off the stage, he's like,
you're a real sweetheart. And I was like, I can't
believe the presiding. It was not like doing your job
as a moderator, right, and like that's the whole thing is,
like you know, I asked questions and I follow up
and like the please answer the question. I think that's
(13:38):
like yes, but like, uh, you know, and it was
you know, the power and balance. But after that, I
mean that I that also kicked off a huge intense
wave and that's when I started getting bomb threats and
um one of the other moderators was talking to me
the other day and after my peace on Harassment I published,
and he was like, you know, I'm never received the
(14:01):
same kind of harassment that you did, even though we
moderated at the same forum. He's like, He's like, it's
just because you're on the radar. Let's take a quick
break her back. Liz says that once you're on the
(14:25):
radar of a network of harassers online, anything that you
say can be used against you. For her, it was
a silly joke that she had made about online dating.
After a night out with friends and with that kind
of threat hanging over you, it can feel like it's
not worth it to show up as your full self
online because someone somewhere could inevitably take what everything you're
saying out of context to harass you. The thing that
(14:46):
they always cling to is this one joke I made.
It was I was I had said, and this happened,
but it was just like I was just joking about.
It was like a man on matched with me after
I told him I was a journalist. You know what's
he hiding? You know? At timed and it's not even
(15:09):
that funny. I think it was like a joke. I
like tweeted at like eleven PM after I've had like
drinks with friends, and I was like, oh, this is funny,
you know what I mean. It's like not, it's not
even It's just like okay, Liz, ha ha ha, you know.
And but like they screenshot that and every once in
a while and it'll just come back up and people
be like, did you do this? Did you ducks an
(15:31):
innocent man? And I'll be like, I don't even remember
his name, but yes, that is that is my joke.
Thank you like, it's not that, but that's the thing
that comes back up more often than anything else. It's
just it's it's weird. I don't know, it's so interesting
how that one harmless joke that you know, I mean,
(15:54):
I've seen that screenshot so and you know, I can
only imagine what it's like for you being like, oh,
they're they're holy, this this silly joke I made back
up again. It will never go away. It's just like
I just deserve better enemies. I'm always like I have
made first of all, Like, first of all, I've made
way worse jokes, way worse. Like do you hear how
(16:18):
I'm talking Like I'm I say dumb ship all the time,
just constantly literally bite me on literally any other dumb thing.
I'm sad, but like and then they're they're all like
expect me to be ashamed of it. They're like did
you say this? And I'm like, I shure, and they're
like did you talx some man? And I'm like, I
(16:40):
sure didn't because it's a joke, y'all. And it's and
it's funny because like, you know, that was one of
the things that I that you know, like a lot
of this truly culture is like, you know, the liberals
can't take a joke. That's why we're gonna like, you know,
make fun of them in like tamp then this is
(17:01):
a really nasty way, you know. It's like it's like
a generation of men who never learned that they weren't funny.
Oh yeah, and it's just like this, it's actually not
these are not These are not jokes. Like I have
I have friends with the comedian Josh Combleman, and I
was like, you should perform a service where people can
(17:22):
ask you is this a joke or not? And you're like,
you know, it's like a five year old you know,
is this a joke? Nope, Sorry, that's just a fart sound.
It's not a joke, you know, Is this a joke? No,
you just made a fat joke. You know, You're just
you're just making a comment about somebody's weight. Not a joke,
not a joke, just some f phobia. Even that joke
(17:45):
does illustrate how I guess I feel that on Twitter especially,
we've gotten to a point where it's but bad, Like
we're not able to have actual conversations or even just
communicate because every it's everything is so weaponized and taken
in bad faith. Anybody, but you're You're what you tweeted
(18:05):
was obviously just a joke, you're kidding around, But there's
this assumption that anything anything that you say. I just
feel that Twitter is so charged people. Once you're on
someone's radar, they're looking for anything anything that you say
can be used to be like see, she's the worst. Yeah,
you know, it's so funny because that that thing I
wrote about online. Mom's part of it was an interview
(18:26):
with the journalist and author or Talia lab laban and Um,
who's who helped me through that year of um of
harassment and as you just really just because she has
experienced it, she wrote this book Cultural Warlords, where she,
you know, digs into these communities online, communities of hate
and so um and so. But the funny thing about it,
(18:51):
and and in that interview, you know, she's very clear,
like she's very good at parsing the nuance of what's
harassment and what criticism because again, like people are allowed
to criticize, like and I'm gonna make mistakes and people
are allowed to call out those mistakes. And I never
want to be you know, like nailing myself to a
(19:13):
cross just because like maybe I sucked up a column,
you know, and I'm going to like they're not all
gonna be winners. Um, I'm going to fail. And uh.
And you know, she does a really good job like
pointing out like people saying that Andrew Cuomal, you know,
(19:33):
harassed them sexually, that's not an online mob. Like that's
just people talking about their experiences and saying this isn't okay.
An online mob is you know, putting a picture of
somebody's house inside across hears and saying, you know, I'm
building pipe bombs. Like that's that's the difference. And so
(19:54):
but like that that that interview was quote tweeted or
like somebody quote tweeted it. It's Glenn Greenwald quote tweeted
it and was like, oh, look at the you know,
he was basically like, look at these people that don't
know the difference between harassment and criticism, and was like,
if you were functionally literate, like you would have read
(20:17):
it and know that we have like three paragraphs, you know,
parsing out that nuance. But again, like it's what you're saying,
it's just bad faith. And once you're on somebody's radar
and they don't like you everything that you do, They're
just gonna hate. Yeah, it sucks. I mean what what
does it feel? What does that feel like for you? Like,
(20:39):
what does it feel like to be facing that kind
of a charged online environment just to do your job
every day? Um? It was hard in the beginning. Um.
There's something my my therapist likes to likes to remind
me of is that, like you level up, you know
what I mean like is that as you go through
(21:00):
life and as you become more successful, you know, you
have kind of have these experiences like you have to
grow into right, and so yes, that first year of
intense harassments are really hard. Um it felt like being
in a tunnel, just like I couldn't everything was closing
in all around me. And you know, I also live
(21:21):
in US. I don't live in a big Well, it's
the second largest city in Iowa. People are always like
it's the big city. Yes, it's the it's the big
city if you're from like you know, a like fair
Field or something. But if it's three hundred thousand people,
it's not that big. Like uh and uh and and
(21:43):
something that happened has happened too, is like, you know,
I get emails from people in town and you know
or or don't do this to people, by the way,
but people like to make me aware when other people
in town are discussing me on Facebook, and I'm like,
please don't because then it makes me scared to go
(22:04):
to the grocery store. But yes, people have like, yeah,
I remember very specifically one woman in town who's a
pretty high profile who had like a whole Facebook post
discussing my body and how I looked as I moderated
that forum, you know, calling me showy and trashy and
like I was just trying to flaunt myself and like
(22:25):
implying that I was like a giant slut. I was
wearing like it doesn't matter what I was wearing, like,
but but I was wearing like, you know, just like
a standard and like newscaster dress. It was bright yellow
because I can wear yellow. I'm like one of the
few white people who can do it. It's a tough
(22:49):
color pul and it's my one skill and y'all can
just eat it, you know, and that kind of stuff.
It makes you feel like you can't be an honor this,
you know, I'll go for runs and people will honk
at me and it's like, while am I getting is that?
My friend? Is that? Is that like a car full
(23:10):
of dudes? You know? That? Are you know? It's just
like you don't know and it's scary. Or you go
the grocery store and people will be like, oh, are
you the writer? And you're like, maybe are you the
one who participated in talking about what a slut? I
was like, you know, it's like I don't, and it's
and most people are nice, and most people are good actually,
(23:31):
and most people are generous. I think this, I believe this.
But when when you're in that harassment zone, and especially
when things are really intense, you know that it's usually over.
The intensity is over by like a day, two days.
But anyway, like you know, it's usually only intense for
a couple of days. But it feels like you're in
(23:52):
a tunnel. It feels like you can turn everything off.
You can turn your phone off, you can turn your
internet off. And that's I do recommend that when things
are bad, log off, don't tweak through up, just log op.
You can't win, stay away, have some friends monitor it
for you, just to let you know if there's anything.
But even if that's happening, you don't know because if
(24:13):
they're like targeting where you live, or you're like, what's safe?
If the door knocks, You're like, is that? What is that? Where?
Do you know? In the most intense times, you know,
I was seeing posts like I live thirty minutes from
her town? Should I go there? What? You know? It
(24:33):
is terrifying. And I I am a single mom. I
have two kids and not have two dogs. But it's
not an accident that I have two dogs, right, Like,
it's directly related to some of my fears about um,
you know, living alone and in being a target of
harassment and so um uh and and yes and so
(24:58):
it feels like being in a tunnel. One of the
things I used I did in the before times when
the harassment would get bad, um is I would just
log off, you know, tell my friends like, don't you
take take my Twitter pass or change it for a while,
you know, do all this, and then I would go,
don't like Marcus theaters, don't get mad at me, but
(25:19):
sneak little bottles of that cheap setter home home wine
in and then get a big popcorn and then just
sit in a movie theater. So it just was like,
I'm safe because nobody with me. I'm you know, I'm
nobody can keeping, nobody knows I'm like seeing this movie
and um, yeah we're just you know, go to a
bar and sit outside or whatever. But yes, it does.
(25:42):
It feels like wow. People might be thinking, you know,
oh well, I don't write about politics, so I'm not
like X y Z kind of person, so this can
never happen to me. But something that you write into
your piece that I think is important to pull out
you right, people want to attribute this hate to one thing,
one moment, or one time that I messed up, one
story I filed. I think people do that because they
(26:03):
want to feel safe. They want to think it will
never happen to them. If you can blame me somehow,
then you can distance yourself from it all. And that
one nugget I think is so important because I do
think there probably are people right now who are listening
to you speak and they're like, oh, well, that will
never happen to me because I'm insert thing here. And
I think that was a real change for me. Was
(26:24):
what I realized getting on, getting on the radar of
people who want to make your life miserable online and
offline as well. It's not one thing you did right,
and so it's important for everyone to understand that that
this could be any of us. I was randomly just
talking to somebody for a story I wrote last year,
(26:45):
and he was like, he was telling me how his son,
who is a black teenage boy in town, was just
getting getting that same kind of hate because he just
posted a picture of himself with his girlfriend, and how
a troll army found that he just existed, like just existed.
(27:06):
Um and it just waves and waves and waves, and
you know, and and and since posting that, you know,
I've heard from people who are like, I'm a school
board member and one time I spoke up about guns
in school, you know, and like I think, actually, I
think anti gun activists get a lot of this kind
(27:28):
of harassment. But it's just like you can be a
school board member. Somebody reached out to me to tell
me that when they were a team, they started an
lgbt Q club in their high school. There's a couple
of years ago and um and and got targeted and
are still targeted. And they're just like they're just like
(27:48):
a human and you know, not high profile, like probably
not even on Twitter. I didn't ask, but like just
like you just existed, um, and and you got this
kind of hate. Um. It's yes, you don't have to
be high profile and obnoxious. And I think that like me, Um,
I'm not that high profile. Let's not let's not get excited, um,
(28:13):
but like yes, you just have to exist in a
way that people don't like, you know, trans people get
this kind of hate. And that was you know, that
was actually one of the motivating reasons where I really
wanted to talk about it because I have um friends
who are trans who are getting a lot of this
harassment just for existing. And I made the conscious decision
(28:36):
not to interview one of them because I didn't want
to put more of a target on their back. Um.
But like yeah, just like just like living your life
and being happy if you do so, you know, and
you get on the radar, like that's it's I mean,
that's it, it's over. You know, there's a journalist and
(28:57):
messaging right now, who's you know, like maybe like four
D followers, Like she writes about sports, but because she's
a woman who writes about sports, she's like I get
She's like, I'm being in a really intense tor askment.
I think that's a good point that like it seems
to be always people who are marginalized until if you're
(29:18):
a woman, a woman of color, L T t Q,
Like it seems like it's much worse for us when
we put our opinions out there. Like I noticed, Um,
this was one of the reasons where I was like,
I have to talk about harassment because it's getting to
be too much. Uh. You mentioned Glenn Greenwald. A few
weeks ago, there was a USA Today piece where a
intern had published her first byeline. Her name is Bretta Smith,
(29:42):
and it was a co byline with another author, Will Careless,
who was a white man, and it was so interesting
to me. So Glenn Greenwald retweeted it was like, I
hope you're like some mean tweet. It was over to
his over a million followers. Not like his followers are
not like the most generous people on the internet, Like
(30:03):
if you're making the conscious decision to follow him as
a person and his personal brand is not like it's
not like you know, kindness, generosity and light more. After
a quick break, let's get right back into it. We
(30:29):
talk a lot about free speech online, what it is,
and who has it, but we need to make room
to talk about what happens when marginalized voices are pushed
off of social media because the harassment has gotten so bad.
And this is ultimately the point of this kind of harassment,
to make people feel like speaking up and putting their
opinions out there is just ultimately not worth it. To
make women and other marginalized voices shut up and just
(30:51):
stop talking. The silencing effect it has can be real,
And this is something that Liz wants men to understand.
I do not think these men need to stop talking.
I mean, I would like it if they talked less,
but that's my own personal decision, has no reflection on
the constitution or laws that I would like to see
(31:11):
it changed. Um, But like I, you know, nobody's saying
you can't talk. But what they are saying is there
is a difference between when you talk and when I talk.
When you talk, maybe people quote tweet you until you're
a potato brain. Fine, When I talk, people tell me
(31:32):
they're going to kill my kids. And that's the difference.
And you know that's and and there is a silencing effect,
and that's the point, Like, the point is the silencing effect.
The point is the fear. The point is to make
you look over your shoulder, to make you think twice
before you have an opinion. And and it's that culture
(31:52):
of silence and that culture of fear that is bred.
And I know, I know women who are afraid of
doing things, of poking their heads. I never learned there's
something deeply wrong with me. So it actually makes me boulder.
It makes me me like, no, you don't get to
(32:13):
dictate the terms on which I live my life and
on how I write and so but I'm not saying
there's a wrong way to be. You have to live
the life that feels good and safe to you. So
I'm not. But it makes me sad, you know, because
I do know there are voices we do not hear
because of this fear. And that's the silencing and that's
(32:35):
the thing we need to be talking about. And that's
the thing that I think is interesting, right, that who
gets defended and who gets attacked? Right, You're right, like
you know, quote tweeting the intern and telling them they
did a bad job when it's obvious it's probably just assigned.
You know, it's a code byline with another man, like
(32:55):
and if you had a problem with the peace, then
don't attack, like just say I have problem with this piece,
Like I have a problem. Don't tell that person they're
bad at there, like there is a why and like
and and and I actually think that like being harassed
makes me a little bit more of an empathetic person,
because I it is and you know, it is tempting
(33:16):
for everybody to like think of like a celebrity or
somebody who's more high profile, not as a person. Right,
You're like, oh, well, you're just an image. So now
I'm going to just talk about like how you look
on the internet. But it does make me think twice
about like how I talk about people and how I
how I criticize things, because you know there there is
(33:37):
a difference, and there is a line. And um yeah,
and I think too, if your high profile enough, you
should know that by now, and you should you know,
use your power for good not evil. I always, you know,
try to think like I punch up right, like hold
power accountable. And that's another thing. I think. It's always
(33:57):
like she's always like I know your power so that
you don't abuse your power. So important, Yeah, She's like,
who are you gonna fight and how are you going
to fight it? You know, She's like, you need to
be very conscious of those things so that you don't
you know, so you don't hurt anybody. You talked about
the role that Talia, who I loved, played when you
(34:18):
were harassed, and that it wasn't just you know, keep
your head up girl, it was here's what you need
to know. So I wonder, Um, I saw your tweet
about things that you thought that anybody who was on
Twitter should do to make sure that they are protecting
themselves from being targeted by this kind of harassment. Can
you tell us a bit about what you would suggest
people do to keep themselves safe. Yeah, very practical advice
(34:42):
and a practical Midwestern mom, so I like practical advice.
So here's what I think. Number one, A lot of
people may not know this, but there are websites, hundreds
tons roots of websites across the Internet that scrub your
data and then sell it to anybody who's well to
pay for it, and that's how you basically that's the
(35:02):
number one way people get docked. Um. There are services
that that will scrub that data off the internet. For you.
UM and one of the services that I have used
that Talia recommended to me. I think it was Talia.
It was either that or it was Christopher Matthias, who's
an incredible reporter who reports on extremism. One of them
(35:24):
told me very early on, UM used delete me. This
is not a commercial. Don't get money from them, Like
I just although the tweet did so well, they like,
now if you use the promo code l y z L.
She didn't dropped the promo code. Yeah. By the way,
I don't want to brag, but like, I'm a promo code,
(35:46):
so like I just live in that promo code life. Uh, superficous.
I told my kids and like, I'm a promo code.
Treat me with respect. And they're like, we're thirsty place,
we just want some water. Um, where are you talking
like that? But yes, delete me is a great service.
(36:09):
There's other ones out there. Delete me is the one
I've been using for years. There is a promo code
for twenty percent off. It's a significant amount of money
h L y z L if you use it. UM
and then UM other things too. You know, if you
if you have kids, get all their pictures off the internet.
Now just do it, uh, you know it, Uh, scrub
(36:32):
your Facebook. Their services out there, none of them are
super great, so there's not one I really could recommend.
I just google around, scrub your Facebook. A lot of
TV news stations have their newscasters have to facebooks. You know,
your private one and your public one. UM, consider that
if you like to use Facebook. I think Facebook is
(36:53):
necessary for journalists, especially if you report on your own community.
You kind of need to see what's going on. But
if you have the auctory of deleting Facebook, just deleteed. UM.
The thing with Instagram is, um, I have a private
one in a public one. Now I recommend that, UM,
or just keeping your Instagram private because you don't want
(37:17):
people finding pictures of you and like photo, you know
what I mean, like in photo and like being like,
oh she went to It's just everything will be taken
in bad faith. UM, and you never know the thing
that people are going to object to, like a stupid joke,
right Like, UM, I say, automatically delete your tweets. UM,
(37:39):
it might feel sad, do it? Like, just delete your
tweets pretty regularly, tweet delete dot net. It's a free service.
You're just like you know, auto start, auto deleting. Um.
Those are some pretty practical things you can do that. Um.
It won't stop harassment, but it will protect you from
people knowing where you live. UM, for people knowing the
(38:01):
faces of your children or your other loved ones. When
I wrote about Richard Spencer, he went on, you know
that that like uh, you know, like the chum bucket
of YouTube shows where he was saying he was saying,
my the last name that I use is my married
last name, even though I'm divorced. Now, I just like, well,
(38:23):
last names are the same. It's just too exhausting to
go back that he was, you know, using my maid
name and my last name, and I I started worrying
about my parents, you know, I was like, oh God,
now they're going to find my parents. It just makes
it harder for people to find that kind of stuff.
And usually like if they can't find it pretty easily,
(38:44):
then it just it goes away after a couple of hours.
In most cases, it will go away after a couple
of hours. But there is something my agent said the
last time I was going through some intense harassment is um,
you know, She's like, this happens if you are successful,
if you are good at your job, like she represents
(39:05):
a lot of female journalists, and she's like, it never
gets easier. So just find ways, find tools, find people
to help you, good friends, you know, because the impulse
is to always feel like, oh did I screw up?
You know, especially if you're not like a narcissist, You're like, oh,
I must be doing something to deserve this. Nine times
(39:27):
out attend you didn't. Nobody deserves to get that threats
and nobody deserves that kind of stuff, no one. Um
and uh, you know but like nine times out of
ten you didn't do anything wrong, you know, but have
friends in your life who would tell you like, yeah,
that was an offensive joke. You screwed up. Deleted and
(39:48):
go dark for a while, you know, Like just get
people in your life you can help you and um,
and reach out, Like if you're in like a really
going through some harassment you don't know how to handle it,
like reach out, Like my d m s are open. Um,
sometimes I close them, but um, they're open now. Reach
out to other journalists. Um. And and that's another thing too,
(40:09):
is if you see somebody going through something like that,
reaching out to them, let's is really just saying like hey,
I see you, I see that this is happening. I'm
so sorry, you know, or you know, or just like
I'm here for you. I like you. You know, Um,
that's you know, that's good. That's good enough, even if
(40:32):
you know, if you even even if you're like whom
the article you wrote did, current of suck. Nobody deserves
death threats. Nobody deserves death threats, and and yes, and
so those are those are some practical things that I think,
as much as I hate seeing anybody be going through
target harassment on social media, something that I have been
really kind of proud to see lately is but one
(40:55):
how many individual other journalists are like, we support you.
You know that a community response I think is beautiful.
And then to something I think is really important is
the institutional response. And so when someone is harassed, when
their outlet puts out a statement that is we support
the good work of this journalists. We you know, because
I think for for a long time, if someone was
(41:16):
being harassed, they would be calling you know, the outlet
they work for, and maybe they would be fired. It
would be like, oh we want to cut ties. Maybe
they would you know, not stand by them I'm I'm
kind of hardened to see situations where you know, your
NBC's or ABC's put out statements standing up for their reporters.
And you know, I will say, like, I have had
(41:37):
institutions throw me under the bus, and I have had
institutions stick up for me. I will I will say
the Columbia Journalism Review has been a staunch supporter of
my work, and I I I think that Kyle Pope
over there has been amazing in the harassment that I
(42:00):
have received, you know, for him, I have I have
profiled Alan Derschwitz, Tucker Carlson, Crystal Is Seth Abramson. And
if you think that there wasn't pushed back from those articles,
you're wrong. Grutchen Carlson, that was a weird one. Um.
And and every single time they have stood by first
(42:22):
of all, you know, institutionally they provide rigorous fact checking
so that everything would be airtight, and and then stood
by me, you know, through through the waves because they
I don't know, I've never been like, Kyle, what have
you done it? But it's um, I think it's because
they know and they value good work, and yes, and
so it is encouraging to see when institutions get it right.
(42:47):
I hate it when institutions get it wrong, but um,
there are some good examples of things. Let's if we
focus on the positive. I do, and I think that
knowing that your institution has your back makes you a
or journalists makes you better at your job. Like I'm
more willing, you know, to say bolder things or to
write bigger stories for them because I know I can
(43:11):
trust them, that I know that you know they'll have
a lawyer ready and they'll defend me, and they'll be
proud of me. Media companies and outlets are starting to
catch up. When journalists like Taylor Lorenz and some men
Cam were harassed online for doing their jobs, their outlets
put out statements sticking up for them, and some outlets
have gone even further. Last week, the sports site defect
(43:34):
or Media announced a new policy that would offer support
to journalists if they found themselves at the center of
a harassment campaign, including a subscription to delete me, safe
housing for them and their families should their homes become unsafe,
and assigning someone to temporarily manage their social media accounts.
Not only is this a good way to support staff,
but it just acknowledges that online harassment is a real
(43:55):
thing that staff might have to deal with instead of
just pretending that it's something just happening online. It acknowledges
the reality that aline harassment can deeply impact our real world,
our real work, and real lives. And if people are marginalized,
the kind of harassment they faith will be worse, you know,
talking with other men and then get this kind of
(44:16):
harassment too. But I was talking with another writer just
the other day about this, and he was like, Yeah,
I've gone through harassment cycles before. He's like, but I
don't think they inspire in me the fear that they
inspire in you, because you're already afraid to walk alone
at night, right, Like, these are already fears that you have,
(44:39):
and they they get compounded by your fears online. And
and this is not all in your head, right. Fear
is a gift. To read The Gift of Fear. Everybody
read The Gift of Fear. It's great. Book teaches you
to trust yourself, like, um, trust your gut and um
I teach that to my daughter, like, trust your gut.
(44:59):
You know, if something feels weird, If an adult feels weird,
get away from them, and sometimes she'll be like you
feel weird, not fair, but fine, go to your round.
Uh it's but yes and so like yeah, but yes,
like it compounds the already precarious situation of existing in
(45:20):
the world and um, which is you know, so much
harder for marginalized people. Um. And it's you know, start
in your head like this, like you know, racism and
homophobias institutionalized and so yes, yes, so it is different definitely, um.
And it is encouraging when there you do find places
(45:44):
that's poor and they're and they're just doing like their jobs,
like you know, to like say like we have an
employee and they did this story and we're fine with it.
But like just I think because we've all just been
so reilroaded by capital that when it does its job,
like it's, uh, we're like thanks mom. Yes, our standards
(46:06):
are very low. So it's like it's like, oh, you
didn't you didn't toss me like the trash, like great,
thank you. But no, I do think CDR has supported
me and my work in some really powerful ways. And
I don't think that that's nothing and I don't think
(46:28):
it's a mistake that I have some of my best
work I've written for them, right and so, um it's
makes good business sense Stitcher your employee as well. What
is your advice to underrepresented people, women, people of color
who want to be I want to put their opinions
out into the world, whether as a writer like yourself,
either just as a social media user. But are understandably scared.
(46:53):
Um yeah, you know, I say obviously, like you need
to live the life that you're happiest with, so you know,
like so I I don't think that I can tell
you what that looks like, and nobody can, but you know,
and if you're scared, like, yeah, think about that, right,
(47:14):
like do the work. But there are some simple practical
stuffs you can take now even if you're just like
I'm not famous, nobody cares about what I say. Who cares?
Live Like you're gonna be famous? Start leveling up and
start taking care of your ship now. Get scrub your stuff,
you know, lockdown your Instagram's, um, you know, figure that
(47:37):
kind of ship out, you know, clear do whatever you
need to do with Facebook, which is a nightmare. Um
and and start doing that now before it gets that
And then I think that that gives you a place
of strength from which to operate and then have like
a game plan. You know, I'm a person who loves
a plan, so you know, just and having a plan
(48:01):
for Okay, if this does happen, here's what I'm gonna do.
I'm gonna log off. I'm gonna have this friend do
this when I'm this friend. I've had friends monitor of
my email before. You know, just because like sign out,
no notifications, can you handle it? Um and and have
those plans in place? I think it gives you a
position of strength to operate from and um only right.
(48:23):
By the way, here's another tip if you're if we're
talking about writing only right for editors that have your back,
and you'll know, like, do not write for an editor
who is going to let you publish something shitty. I
I used to work as an editor for a literary
magazine and there were times when I would be reading
(48:44):
an essay that was other love otherwise lovely, but had
like one or two sentences in it that you know,
might be fat, shame me, might be a little bit
not great. And you know, my my comment to the
author was always, we're taking this out because it brings
down the quality of the piece and you're writing right,
(49:06):
it's and and but you know there there are websites
the x O Jane used to do this that would
take people's worst thoughts and impulses put them online, and
then they become targets. And then they'd be like, why
did that happen to me? It's like, well, you've wrote
something terrible in a bad way, and not just once again.
(49:28):
People don't deserve death threats, but um and I do
think we don't. That was like the Internet in the
early aughts a little bit. I feel like people have
most editors will have your back, but don't write for
editors who are going to throw you under the bus,
who are gonna, you know, exploit your marginalized identity for clicks. UM,
(49:49):
be in charge of yourself and your representation. Don't be
afraid to walk away from UM stories if you get
a bad vibe, or editors if you get a bad vibe,
It's fine. I've done a couple of times, m Um,
just because I'm like, I don't I respect you, but
I feel like we're not vibing on this piece, and
it's okay to walk away from it. UM. Things like that. UM.
(50:12):
I also just like never advocate anybody living a life
of fear. And so if you're in that place, if
you feel like all you're doing is operating from a
place of fear, you're not. You're not living your best life.
So what do you need to do to not be there?
Doesn't mean getting off Twitter? You know, you can have
a life like not online. It's possible. Lots of people have,
(50:35):
you know, wonderful writing careers and are not on the Internet.
People exist not on the internet. Um, things happen not
on internet. So find the life that you need to
live and lead and don't live in a place of fear. Please,
nobody wants that for you. And don't be afraid to
reach out to other people. Um, you know, farm your
(50:55):
community and to find the people who who love you
and let us see you succeed and really, you know,
lean on them. That's beautiful. Where can folks keep up
with all the amazing stuff that you're doing? Um? Oh
like a cancel culture warrior. I also have a newsletter.
(51:18):
It is um it's just Liz dot sub stack dot com,
l y Z dot sub stack dot com and it's
called men yell at me. Uh they do. People are like,
why do you I'm like, I don't know, why do
they yell? Uh? Don't ask me? But that that's my
newsletter so um. I Also I also have a Twitter
(51:41):
It's at l y z. I also have a website
lis lends dot com, um and you can find me
all of those places. If you enjoyed this podcast, please
help us grow by subscribing. Got a story about an
(52:06):
interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi.
We'd love to hear from you at Hello at tango
dot com. Disinformed is brought to you by There Are
No Girls on the Internet. It's a production of I
Heart Radio and unbost Creative Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.
Tory Harrison is our supervising producer and engineer. Michael Lamtto
is our contributing producer. I'm your host Bridget Tod. For
(52:26):
more great podcasts, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast,
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