The children of “mommy bloggers” are speaking up - Stuff Mom Never Told You

There's a difference between posting a picture of your child on social media and making a business out of posting content about your child. New legislation aims to keep minors from being exploited online  

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production
of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this
is There Are No Girls on the Internet. We talk
a lot on this podcast about the ethics around not
to mention the safety of social media, especially when it

(00:24):
involves the young people. And if you've spent any time
at all on platforms like Instagram or TikTok, if you've
no doubt seen parents who make their kids, even babies,
the focal point of their entire social media presence. And
sometimes this can be big business, generating a meaningful income
in brand deals and partnerships. But what happens to kids

(00:46):
when their parents use them for social media content. It's
actually kind of uncharted territory. There isn't even a ton
of research on the psychological impacts because it's so new,
And this is really one of those situations where technology,
what it makes possible, and the norms around it have
evolved more quickly than our research or laws have. But

(01:06):
here's what we do know. Young people who have had
this experience of being the focal point of a mommy
blog or social media account are speaking up, and now
new legislation aims to regulate how parents can legally use
and profit from their kids on social media. I joined
my friends Annie and Samantha over at the podcast stuff
Mom never told you to discuss, and honestly, I really,

(01:28):
really really want to know what y'all think, because, like
I said, this is totally new territory and none of
us really know how it will unpact young people. So
I'd love to hear your thoughts. Hey, this is Annie
and Samantha and welcome to Stephane. Never told your protection
of iHeartRadio, and today we are once again thrilled, so ecstatic,

(02:03):
joyful to be joined by the amazing world traveling bridget
I love the introductions you all give. They won't they
like truly warm my heart? Yes, well, you warm our
heart by being here, especially when you're doing so much
other stuff and you are coming at us from a

(02:27):
different location. Correct, that's right, I'm coming from you live.
Well not it won't be live when people hear this,
but live for right now from Mexico City, Mexico, where
it's nice and warm. Yeah, it's lovely here. It looks lovely.
You've got like a like healthy light globe coming in
behind me where we're staying is like has a lovely

(02:49):
view and like all the different monuments and stuff. And
then there's I didn't know that Mexico City is so mountainous,
so it's like a really it's kind of like being
in California, like a beautiful view, but then skyscrapers. Yeah,
ten out of ten can recommend. Yes, So you're having
a good time. Can you give us some highlights, some
food maybe that you've had. Oh? Yes, everything I've eaten

(03:12):
has been amazing, honestly, it's so one of the reasons
I wanted to come to Mexico City was because of
the food. I've been told that you could go to
like Michelin Star super bougie restaurant and get a delicious
meal in Mexico City if you wanted to, or just
get like, you know, cheap tacos on the street and
that would be delicious. And so I've been eating all
the things, lots of street tacos, which are great. Something

(03:36):
else I like is they take breakfast very seriously here,
which I am a breakfast person. I really like that.
So lots of good breakfasts items. Yeah, so far I've
been I've only been here since Saturday, so it hasn't
been that long, but looking forward to eating all the things. Yes, oh, say,
you've been there almost a week, so yeah, I think
you've gotten You've gotten some variety. I'm sure you're gonna
have a whole lot more. But that's I'm very jealous of,

(03:57):
like the breakfast, because I'm sure it's all I see delicious.
There's something about a savory, spicy breakfast. It does it
really doesn't want it. I'll be there. Save a couch
for me, save a couch, yes, yes, yes, as well.

(04:21):
We're looking forward to checking back in more food updates hopefully,
but yeah, thank you so much for taking the time
to join us from a different city when you haven't
been there that long. Oh, always a pleasure. And my
own podcast, There Are No Girls on the Internet is
on a hiatus, so I feel like, um, in this
time where I'm not podcasting, having an outlet wreck and

(04:44):
be like I saw this thing on the internet and
I have to talk about it with somebody. Has been
great for me, So thank you for having me. Yes, absolutely,
And the topic he bought today is fascinating and such
like a big one and one that we have discussed

(05:05):
a lot on the show. Recently because we've been kind
of on a tech streak on the show, and not
to like, not to put words into anyone else's mouths.
But I didn't grow up with social media. I got
it late college, I would say, was the earliest that
I got. Some friends of mine got it when I

(05:27):
was in high school, but I was kind of a
late bloomer, as they say. And I know it sounds
kind of like back in my day, but I'm I'm
pretty thankful for it, honestly in a lot of ways.
And this this kind of new phenomenon of all of
our lives, but especially in this outline bridget of children's

(05:52):
lives being on the internet is fairly new and in
a lot of ways kind of disturbed, a little unsettling.
I did want to ask before we get into this
conversation both of you, what was your kind of experience
with social media? And also, and you can pass on

(06:12):
this one because I know it's kind of a fraught subject,
does your family follow you on social media? Oh? What
a good question. Well, you know, we just before we
got on here talked about the fact that I am
from the generation of Beeper's and that the Internet was

(06:32):
not a thing until I almost got into college. Essentially,
like at the tail end of everything. The beeper was
due to my job. And at my first job out
of college, I was a child abuse investigator and those
systems were getting online, were you. I was still in
the time where we were doing everything by hand. Essentially,

(06:55):
that was where I am. The technology and social media
was fairly new for me. I think outside of college
had like my Space and Facebook. I dabbled that first,
and since then, I'm like, Okay, I like the social
media thing, but I am also very grateful, especially seeing
what my nieces and nephew have gone through with social media,

(07:17):
which they are gen z or so it's a whole
different level. I do have family that follow me. I
do not like it, and now a post less because
they follow me. Yeah. Say, we were talking about how
the first time I met you, Samantha, you this was
just a couple of years ago, you had a beeper
on your person the first time you met in person

(07:38):
years ago. Yeah, my relationship with social media, I Annie,
I'm kind of like you, Like, I am so glad
that I came of age in a time where social media, Like,
I'm glad that what I was doing on social media
or like the early days of my internet usage, it's
not still around behind me or at least Scott, I

(07:58):
hope not. So. I was using things like live journal
when I was in early high school, and I remember
I was in college when we first got Facebook, and
before Facebook, it was my Space, so like I was
like a scene kid and so college, like my Space
dominated my college experience. Like that was like how you

(08:21):
understood and kept up with my gross scenster hipster friends
in college. But it's funny because even though I was
dabbling with social media back then, it's so different than
it is today, Like it like it doesn't even feel
like the same thing. I guess it technically was social media,
but the implications were so different than I mean, back then,

(08:44):
you were spending hours making it so that when you
go to your MySpace page, it has like falling stars
and an AutoPlay panic at the disco song that nobody
can pause. But it was stuff like that, and it
was a social media but it was so different than
today that I should of whether or not my family
follows me on social media. I don't allow them to

(09:07):
follow me on social media. This could be a longer
conversation but I feel like I've kind of accepted that
my social media and digital presence is not actually who
I am in real life, and so you know, you
should really be thinking about, like when you post on
social media, like who is your audience? Who is this for?
And so who I actually am that the audience for

(09:30):
that is like my friends and family, people who knew
me in real life, my online persona, if you will.
That's not for my friends and family. That's where people
who are interested in my podcast, interested in my content,
that kind of thing. Like, And so I draw like
pretty clear distinction between the two. Like I almost think
of my social media or like digital self as like
my avatar for my real self. And I don't like

(09:53):
the idea of the two kind of the two worlds
kind of overlapping. So I try to keep a very
clear distinction between my friend in family irl and my
social media persona, which I don't see as my real self,
if that makes sense. I know I probably sound like
somebody who just took a huge bong rip. I swear
to god I have not. You know, that's pretty fascinating

(10:16):
because I think that says a lot to the reality
of social media. When you say it like that there
is a persona and there's this whole level of understanding
that there's a difference between the person and what's seen
on screen in different accounts, in different platforms. And I know,
as we're talking about the subject you're bringing which I

(10:38):
have a lot of opinions, So I'm really really excited
and a lot of concerns, just as being in child welfare,
but in that level of what we see and what
is posted and who has control of what is being posted. Absolutely,
it's it's so complicated, and I think it's complicated for
me as a grown woman in my thirties. I can
only manage how much more complicated it gets navigating this

(11:00):
as a young person. So I know that I came
on the show quite a while ago to talk about
Francis Hogan, the Facebook whistle blower, and what she what
her whistle blowing revealed about what Facebook and Instagram knows
about how social media negatively it impacts young girls, And
so that was a conversation that we had. But this
conversation is a little bit different because it really asks

(11:21):
what happens when it's not the you know, teen or
the child getting on social media themselves, what happens when
it's the mom or the parent who is kind of
forcing I use that word in quotes, forcing their child
to be part of their social media content, part of
their social media persona. And so on my podcast, there

(11:41):
are No Girls on the Internet. I did this fascinating
interview with this woman, Sarah Adams, and she runs the
TikTok account mom Uncharted. She told me that she calls
her account mom Uncharted because social media, if you think
about it, it's really like this uncharted territory for parenting,
and we really do not know how social media will
impact our kids. If you want to listen to the

(12:02):
whole interview, check out my podcast. It's It's she's a
really fascinating person, but her social media account is dedicated
to explorations of kind of mom influencing and like mom
run accounts and all the different ways that parents. It's honestly,
it's usually moms use their children for content on social media.
She told me that social media, you know, the dynamics

(12:24):
around it have changed so quickly, not that long ago.
If I would just say something like, oh, sharing your
kid on social media, you might think that means like
posting a cute picture on Facebook where you're great aunt
or your uncle or something might like it. Now, kids
who are not even really old enough to understand what
it means, not to mention, not old enough to consent

(12:44):
to it, can have their most intimate or sensitive or
embarrassing moments seen by millions of people on social media
platforms like TikTok. Right, as we've said in a lot

(13:07):
of these past episodes, this is sort of an iteration
of things we've seen before. This is going to also
kind of age me. But my parents wants in a
video of me as a kid to America's funny as
some videos, But that's like very different, Like they weren't
going to make money off of it, right, but what
were you doing in the video? Never you mind? I

(13:32):
was alternately like so enamored with a frog and then
terrified of the frog. It's just like it wasn't that funny,
but they thought it was very funny. But then it
became like you know, reality TV, and we've talked about
those things before as well, of like kind of the
dance Mom's situation. And then now it becomes, oh, what

(13:52):
we're seeing on social media where people are making money
off of this content of their kids, where the kids
can't consent to it, where it will probably never be
able to be fully erased if that's what they wanted,
If that's what they wanted, And then I know we're
going to talk about this later, but there's kind of
all these achy issues around like paris social relationships people

(14:14):
develop with these kids, and what do we do about that?
Like is that the platform? Is it the parent that's
posting this content? Like all of these questions that come
from from what it like one level can seem like, oh,
this is just a cute video of this kid falling
over something, But when you dig deeper than that, there's

(14:38):
just all of these other questions exactly and you put
it so well right, like just two level set. I
don't feel like every parent who shares content of their
kid is it's created equal here, Like there's a pretty
big difference between you know, sharing the occasional family vacation
video or like cute picture or whatever with your friends

(14:58):
on social media or even wider Internet. There's a difference
between that, which I think most people do. And it
is like fine and running a business that generates income
from relying on an audience of millions of people engaging
with your child, right, And there are so many questions
that you just kind of alluded to and reasons for
why we should sort of be asking questions about what

(15:19):
that is doing to our kids. One of the things
that I think is unique about social media and technology
in general is how quickly it moves. Things just move
really quickly. And I think that when it comes to
our kids and the impact on our kids, it would
behove us to not move really quickly, would behove us
to take a minute, pump the brakes and do some
real deep thought about how we want our children to

(15:41):
be showing up on social media and whether or not
it's actually good for them psychologically, emotionally, and whether or
not it's actually safe, like in the real you know,
in every implication of the word, like sometimes it is
not safe to share so much of your child on
social media with strangers. You know, there might be a
negative psychological impact on kids. I really wanted to find

(16:05):
I was like, oh, I'm going to get some good
media research on this. But as the uncharted part of
Sarah Adams's TikTok Names suggests, there kind of isn't a
ton of good research out there about the way that
being used for content by your parents would impact children,
and that's partly because it's just so new, Morgan sung

(16:26):
over at NBC. She's one of my favorite Internet reporters,
and she's really been following this beat of young people
who have been kind of turned into content by their parents.
So Morgan spoke to Lindsay Cooley, who was a licensed
clinical child psychologist, who said that because social media is
so relatively new, there is not really a lot of
clinical research on the long term effects of what she

(16:47):
calls growing up online. But lately, some kids who did
grow up with parents who shared every aspect of their
lives on social media are starting to speak out. Morgan
Song talked to Cam, whose mom used to make content
about their life. Cam said that their mom sharing every
single detail of their life had a real negative impact
on their mental health, and eventually they kind of stopped

(17:08):
being open with their mom about whatever they were going
through because they knew this is just going to wind
up being shared on the Internet with her followers. Cam
is immuno compromised and would spend a lot of time
ill or sick, and rather than like being there for them,
Cam says that their mom would just be filming these
filming that's for content. So at times in their life

(17:30):
where they were sick or stressed or going through something difficult,
their mom would be there with a camera in their face,
right right. And I think that's the way you phrased
it of like you know, using kids for content, of
like then you become something like a tool to get

(17:51):
clicks as opposed to like a child that needs care
and needs help and needs respects. And how damaging that
absolutely would be if you start to feel like, oh,
it's just like my tears are just a way for
you to film something and get people to watch it.
Like what what would that do to you? Like that's
very damaging? I think yeah. And it's actually as an adult,

(18:14):
like speaking of that sort of distinction between my social
media life or my digital life and my real life,
I don't really share a lot of my like real
life on social media, and in part it's because of
that tension that you just named. If I have something
in my life it is really truly meaningful to me,

(18:37):
I am really uncomfortable with the idea of that being content,
of that being something to generate clicks, of that being
something that's going to have a number attached to it, like, oh,
three hundred people liked that my grandfather passed away or whatever.
Like I'm I really am not comfortable with that personally,
and so I tend to keep big or meaningful real

(19:00):
life moments off of social media because of that, because
I don't like the idea, and I'm like, no shade
to anybody who doesn't feel that way. This is just
how it feels for me. It just doesn't feel right,
and I think for me it feels like it is
does a disservice to how meaningful those moments truly are
in my life. I don't want to see Mark Zuckerberg's

(19:21):
engagement metric on the back end of something that was
like deeply meaningful to me in my real life. That
seems to cheap, and that feels a little bit cheap
to me, I guess, yeah. And it is interesting because again,
we are adults, and if you want to post that
content and you're contenting to, yeah, you're an adult, so
you can consent to it. Then that's one thing. It

(19:41):
still feels strange because that's a whole separate podcast, but
kind of still like, oh, here's this sad thing I
have to like it, because otherwise they're gonna be mad.
I didn't like it, Like there's like this kind of
social dynamic around that feels odd because then you're like, well,
I'm liking this thing. That's really sad, but I find
don't do it. But I do think that, and please

(20:04):
don't come at me listeners, but I do think like
in the same way people sometimes use like pets or
puppies to be like, oh, look, how cute. Click on
this content here they are people are using their kids
like that, like see here's my life, here's this like
view of my life, and like, oh, what did my
kid do today to get these clicks? And if that

(20:25):
is like oh my kid is very sick and I
am going through a hard time. Please, you know, give
me these likes, give me this engagement, it does become
pretty murky, right. You know. It's interesting too as we
were talking about the levels, like you're talking about social
media etiquette, which has been a conversation like how how
do you go from this? But also how social media

(20:48):
has grown, Like when you think of the initial Facebook,
it was literally to connect with college friends for me,
or your past friends or high school friends that you
haven't seen. So you may be updating, so I might
get a picture of my old high school friend who
had a child, and oh, how cute. And it wasn't
necessarily about getting likes and looks. It's just, hey, I'm

(21:08):
updating you about my life, even to the point that
like wedding announcements, funeral announcements were done on Facebook. I'm
on Facebook still to remember people's birthdays and to get
an event advice, because a lot of people used to
use that as the way of getting invitations or birthday
parties or even sometimes weddings, which is really odd. But
the level that we have grown to is this genre

(21:31):
of TikTok. TikTok is not a thing you can do private,
and you can do small content, but it really is
a race to see what can go viral and what
can make money and what can get sponsorships. And it's
changed vastly from what an elder millennial like myself knew
it as to what it is today. But because people

(21:52):
are learning things so fast or getting access to things
so quickly, that etiquette has been kind of lost or
lost in translation perhaps, and it's become a point that
for the gen Z years, and I guess newer millennials.
What are those younger millennials. Baby millennials have seen this
as a norm and don't didn't realize until maybe just

(22:14):
recently as the younger generators who've been on social media
all of their lives since their birth have started to
call it out that this was normal and in competition
and a way of possibly making a living, and it's
just kind of made this whole culture completely different from
what it was even three years ago. Oh my god,
that's that's such an insightful point. And I do think

(22:36):
it is, like it is not just human nature. It
is a little bit, it's some of it, but it's
also exactly what you said I think. I think it's
algorithmically generated platforms where whatever is extreme or over the
top or whatever gets more attention, and platforms like TikTok
where that is the currency is like that, that's what

(22:58):
gets engagement, is that attention, and so you have people,
so that's that's like its own thing. When you add
in kids to the mix that it just kind of
has the potential to really be so fraught. Like I
remember it was some YouTuber I don't know her name
off hand, but she was kind of like quote unquote
canceled because she was known for being like a YouTuber

(23:22):
who showed her family and her family pet passed away,
and so she was making a YouTube video about how
her family pet passed away, and I guess she accidentally
uploaded the unedited footage where her child was very like,
genuinely authentically upset and crying, and the parent was, rather

(23:45):
than consoling this child, trying to tell the child to
contort his face so that it would be really like,
so it would be like a really extreme picture of
them crying, because she knew that if you use that
that image of an extreme close up of like a
distorted face who's experiencing extreme emotion, if you use that

(24:06):
for the thumbnail on YouTube, it gets more engagement. If
you ever look at YouTube videos and you're wondering, why
do all the thumbnails have people making really weird over
the top faces that nobody really makes in real life,
it's because they have figured out that the algorithm rewards
videos that include faces like that. And so while this
child is experiencing a genuine response emotionally to losing their pet,

(24:29):
mom is like, oh, make sure that you really give
me a good cry face so that my YouTube video
of back this performs well, and so I think it's
not just our nature as humans, it is also platforms
that are prompting people into behavior that they would not
otherwise probably do if not for the way that platforms

(24:49):
kind of encourage us to do this. Do that makes sense? No, yeah, absolutely,
I think again, like the squeaky will gets the oil
type of thing where you see the most dramatic or
the most over the top. Like one of the things
that's really thriving on TikTok is people calling out other
people for cheating or thinking they're cheating if you're so
and so I just saw your husband here talking to

(25:10):
this girl, like that's been a big thing and it
shouldn't be as before. Like there's a part of this
like yes, let the women know so they can get out,
but it's also purely for entertainment, for the numbers, for
the likes, and then as we see with these children,
more and more shocking things that people think is okay.
I know a YouTuber as you were talking about another

(25:31):
YouTuber family, we talked about this recently. Actually in one
of the episodes you came on, the couple adopted the
child just for the sake of saying we're good people
and adopted this child. Come on this journey with us.
And then all of a sudden, the child disappeared, and everybody, look,
what the hell just happened? What did you do to
this child? And it's the same way as we've seen
several like the couple who did the experiment with their

(25:53):
two young boys saying, hey, we're gonna say that one
of your brothers died, your pretend brother died. Just go
along with it so we can make money. And this
was a whole experiment on the kids for entertainment. The
audience is supposed to know that this is a joke.
We're just testing the kids. Let's see how the kids react.
And it was so traumatizing to watch these kids pretending

(26:16):
like they're lying, but questioning why they're doing this, and
then having it filmed and everybody saying, what are you doing?
This is so mentally damaging to your child. But you're
doing this for the sake of TikTok to show what
So the example that you brought up earlier, the family,
the YouTube family that adopted a child, there they're gonna

(26:37):
we're gonna return to them. They make a little surprised
guest appearance in this episode. I think you're right. I
think that there is. I honestly think it goes back
to something that you said, Sam. I think it's a
situation where because the Internet has moved so quickly, like
from where it was when I was updating my MySpace

(26:58):
profile in my dorm room in college to today, that
wasn't that long I'm old, but I'm not that old, right,
that wasn't that long ago, And where we were then
and where we are now are completely different. So it's
moved so quickly, and I think it's a situation where
not like the cultural norms around what is and it's
not acceptable, healthy, okay to do a good idea, to

(27:22):
do whatever, those have not kept up with how quickly
the technology has moved, And so we now can film
our kids inside of our house and quickly uploaded to
TikTok or YouTube and get a million views. Our society
has perhaps not progressed to a place where it's like
but should we? And I would argue that our laws
have also not kept up with that, And so I

(27:43):
do think there's something about the speed with which the
Internet has changed become so ubiquitous in our lives that
we have not pumped the brakes and allowed for cultural norms,
societal norms, the law to all catch up to where
we are right now, and especially the fact that kids
are we absolutely should be taking the time to be

(28:03):
a little bit more introspective and slow down a little bit,
to have a cultural reset about what is it is
not okay when it comes to filming children for strangers online, right,
And it kind of always reminds me of the thing
that I had to tell kids as Snapchat and all
those different things were existing, again reminding them you may

(28:23):
think it's not on the internet, but it's on the internet,
so just as a reminder. But also the government is
very quick to use things like this to go after
the marginalists communities, and that's a whole different conversation, I know,
but having to try to explain to both parents and
to children like, hey, you posting this picture of your
half naked child actually can be considered child porn and

(28:47):
you can be arrested on a felony and then being
completely shocked, and then having also letting the kids know, hey,
you just sending it yourself, even though you're doing it
with your quote unquote consent as a minder, you don't
have the ability to consent, but is only going after
specific things and specific morality rather than what the root
of the problem is with the social media. Oh my god,

(29:08):
same I. This is kind of a non sequitur I had,
but the most like weird conversation with a stranger on
TikTok it was, for whatever reason, I get surfaced a
lot of content about hallucinogens, like hallucinogens drugs. TikTok thinks
I'm very interested in like expanding my mind. And there
was a woman who is a woman look like a
woman of color to me talking about how she enjoys

(29:29):
using mushrooms and it's like, oh, like, come follow me
from my beautiful day on mushrooms. And it did look
like a beautiful day. Like she's at the beach, she's
like going for a swim. Looks fantastic. Then she goes
to her car and it's like she's like, oh, I
had to drive home. And I was like, honey, this
is a video. You're a woman of color, and this
is a video of you admitting to a crime. Like

(29:51):
this is not me judging you or me saying this,
but it is me knowing that, Like I've seen people.
I've seen people who are going through like contentious marital
situations to get CPS called on them. Like I've heard
horror stories of people who just uploaded stuff to the
Internet without thinking about it, and then they lost a job,

(30:11):
they lost a scholarship, the courts got involved, and somebody
else was like, why is that the first thing that
you jumped to when I was like, I understand that,
Like it sucks, and I like, I don't want to
be the person to have to tell you this and
like rain out of your parade from your nice day
that you were trying to show what the internet, But
I want to be the person that tells you the truth.

(30:32):
And the truth is that especially for people of color, you,
I mean, nobody should have be admitting to a crime
on video. That that's just like end that there. Do
what you're gonna do if you're not hurting anybody whatever,
but like be smart about it, Like, don't don't have
this new era of social media where we don't necessarily
have the cultural norms firmly established anymore, the guardrails, if

(30:57):
you know what I mean. Don't let that false feeling
of freedom make you think that we actually do have
freedom online, especially if you're a marginalized I would that
is just like a rule of don't admit to crimes
on the Internet. That's just like, I don't care how
much engagement it gets you. That's just an overall But
as you're saying for the person who's like, why do
you have to go to that like pessimistic view? And

(31:17):
I know I'm always joking about the fact that I'm pessimistic,
but the reality is it's really privileged for someone to
not have to even worry about it. That's the problem.
The problem about this is I have been on this
side of where I see police officers, I see court
systems actually go after specific individuals because they've profiled them
from jump and then find the social media accounts and

(31:38):
use every bit they can from that because they're profiling
once again. And that I know we use that as
generalized terms and the bigger picture, but it happens on
social media as well. As well as the fact that
there was a perfect example of this dude who's really big,
TikToker got really big because he got he was funny.
Everybody loved him. He thought he was just hilarious. He

(31:58):
just cuts into a video and then tells a random
fact that was his whole thing, And then people found
and dug into his earlier post where he brings his child,
where the child says all this homophobic and racist comments,
which obviously was taught by him, and he's encouraging it,
and everybody's getting pissed at, both the child and him,

(32:21):
and this is what he's done, not realizing that he
was going to blow up. But that's the consequence. It's like,
not only have you ruined your own reputation, you've already
ruined your child's. Oh my god. And it's like, I
could only see that as like a parenting fail. If
your kid heard you using slurs and repeated that and
you knew that was behavior that they were exhibiting, that

(32:45):
is one thing. Then being like I should film this
for the Internet because it's funny, that is I guess
that's what I'm saying. I'm not being very eloquent about it,
but I do think that we are in this point
where I don't know that people universally understand that not
every moment is okay to be shared on the Internet.

(33:05):
And you know, I would hope for that parent in
that situation to be like, we need to have a
conversation about what is and it's not okay to say.
The fact that this parent was like, oh, get the camera,
this is gonna be great, put this on the internet.
That really tells me that I think that we are
in a place where perhaps people are not asking the
question of should I be filming this? What are the consequences?
This is is gonna be good for my kid? Like, I

(33:27):
think that we just need to have a little bit
more introspection about what we share to the internet for
strangers and absolutely, and again it is this layer of
safety that people think, because they don't see people's reaction,
they just record it and move on with their day
until the consequences happened, that they're safe to do this.
And maybe they're thinking they're being relatable or maybe they're

(33:47):
trauma bonding with people, which is in itself like why
are you doing this and it's doing at the expense
of a child, thinking maybe I don't know if it's
legitimate or if it's a rue saying that I'm just
trying to teach you. I'm just trying to share our
you know, our downfalls and I'm trying to be real,
but it's again at the expense of a child's emotions

(34:08):
and trauma. So that exact thing is the reason why
I wanted to talk about this, because I had a
moment where I saw this video on TikTok, and I
have to say, like, I was personally triggered by this,
this TikTok that I saw, And it was this video
of a black mom who was washing her black child's

(34:28):
like braids, right, and so this so she had a
camera setup where she was holding her child over the
sink to like scrub her scale and this little girl
was like maybe she's like seven or eight. She is
bawling her eyes out, she is so upset. Right, And
so I'm a black woman. I have braids now. I
have braids for most of my life when I was
a kid, Like a lot of black women, my hair

(34:52):
has been something that is like a complicated thing, like
a lot of black women have complicated feelings about their hair.
And I have many a memory of cr while getting
my hair done, crying while getting my braids taken, you know,
taken out or put in, And I remember quite viscerally
what a vulnerable position that I was in in those times.
I'm not saying that like moms shouldn't do their kids

(35:14):
hair if they cry, but I'm saying I remember that
being an emotional experience for me that I was very
vulnerable in. And I think a lot of black women
know what I'm talking about. And so this child is
sobbing while this, while this is happening, the mom is
like everybody, millions of people that are going to see
how you're acting right now. And the little kid is like,
what do you mean? And she's like, I'm filming this,

(35:34):
And a little girl starts crying even more, and she's like,
why are you filming this? And her mom is like,
I'm filming it for a hair tutorial. And even though
this is a little kid, she's pretty she's pretty sharp.
She says, why don't you film a hair tutorial on
your own head? And it just broke my like something
something about watching that video of like I remember what
it was like to be in distress. Now. I'm not

(35:55):
saying that was like a traumatic experience for her. Kids
cry for all kinds of reasons all the time, right,
we were all kids once, we remember, but she's clearly
in distress even if it's temporary distress. And so her
mom talking to the camera in this moment and being
like millions of people are going to see this in
the moment really just made me sad. And the mom

(36:15):
was saying like, oh, well, like in the comments of
this TikTok, she was saying like, well, I want to
show other black moms out there how you deal with
a stressful hair washed day or and other people who
were supporting her were saying like, maybe she's looking for
a community of moms and wants to build community in
solidary young line. I could sort of see that, but ultimately,

(36:36):
the number one responsibility of a parent should be to
create a safe environment for your kid and all of
this other stuff like I can understand maybe sort of
kind of wanting to demonstrate like, oh here's how I
as a black mom gets through a tough hair washing day,
But those are strangers. Your responsibility when your child is
in distress is to provide a safe environment for that child.

(36:59):
Who care about these these strangers in your head? But
you are thinking about entertaining or whatever via this content,
And that's kind of what I'm talking about, Like, how
we reached a point where folks have kind of forgotten
that your number one responsibility is to your child and
to create a safe environment for that child, even if

(37:19):
that means that this community of fictional moms looking for
support might have to get at someplace else, right, And
I know, as you said at the beginning, there hasn't

(37:42):
been a lot of research in this. I know I
read one article about how things like this does a
road like the trust a kid has and their parents,
because if it's like they can kind of sense, oh, well,
they're doing this for some other reason, or there might
be a trick behind this, or they might be trying
to manipulate a motion out of me for someone else.

(38:03):
But also something that I wanted to go back to
that you wrote about was this idea of feeling like
there's an invisible audience. Yeah, this I found miss fascinating.
So Lindsay Cooley, the licensed clinical child psychologist that spoke
Tom Morgan sung at NBC. Coolly said that adults whose
formative years were shared online may never grow out of
experiencing what she described as the invisible audience. Basically, we've

(38:26):
all kind of probably felt that the invisible audience is
this kind of adolescent ideal that everybody is paying attention
to you and like scrutinizing your behavior at all times. Now,
most of us probably felt that way at one time
or another in our lives, but we usually grow out
of it as we mature and become more self aware
and get a deeper sense of self. Lindsay Cooley says

(38:47):
that kids who are always being filmed for content might
have a harder time breaking out of that mindset because
they essentially grew up on a stage. They grew up
knowing that they had to perform and turn it on
and so that is your everyday lived experience. You might
have a much harder time growing out of that phase
when you think that everybody's looking at you, when you

(39:07):
are feeling like everybody is scrutinizing you and feeling like
you're being perceived with eyes on you all the time.
And really I can kind of understand that, like I
can understand why four kids who are constantly on the
stage of the Internet, why that would then be a
hard thing to kind of break out of. Yeah, and
that's another issue here is the issue of privacy. And

(39:29):
as we also mentioned at the top, these parasocial relationships
that people can form with children who again probably never
consented to any of this, right, Yeah, that's something that
I find really interesting, I guess I'll say, is this

(39:49):
the way that adults on the internet can form these
parasocial relationships with kids they don't even know, you know,
And I'm the one ahead. I kind of get it, right,
Like they've been let in on these very intimate relationships
with these kids, and so I can understand forming a bond, right,
and how that line of what is it is not
appropriate and what you are and are not entitled to

(40:11):
can become blurred. There was this mom influencer on TikTok
recently who decided that she was going to stop showing
her kids on social media after sort of providing quite
a bit of content solely about her kids. And her
followers were upset, But they weren't just like they weren't
like cool as your kids do what you feel as best.
They were not happy about that, and they felt really

(40:31):
entitled to see and interact with these kids they don't
even know, right, And so I remember this was around
Christmas time when this influencer announced that, and one of
her followers made a video that was like, can we
at least see the children for Christmas, like I just
want to see them for Christmas, and how they could
not accept that they were not going to be able

(40:51):
to see and interact with kids that they didn't know.
And it might I don't feel like all of these
people have bad intentions or anything, but it is absolutely
not for an adult stranger to feel entitled to see
kids that they don't even know. Like, that's just not healthy,
you know. Of course I have to go real dark
with it, as you're being very kind and be like
these are not They just really like these kids and

(41:13):
they think the relationship is adorable. But here's the prime
example of where we can talk about grooming and what
happens when these relationships or these young kids become sexualized
by the audience or by the followers and not necessarily
being done by the parents. That they may be completely

(41:34):
innocent of it, thinking that they're playing cute little dress
up matching mommy type of look, which is often a thing,
but this becomes a real dangerous road of grooming and
a sexualization of young children. Just I know there was
one specific woman who went through a young girl's accounts,

(41:55):
meaning they were probably really young, maybe with a parent
showing what kind of followers these accounts had, and they
are typically form a more examples like Middle Asian men
commenting about how beautiful they are and how all these
things are, like how good they looked in this outfit
or all these things, and how concerning it is that
the parents aren't realizing that compliment is not cute. It's

(42:16):
not a cute compliment and you shouldn't sit there and
like them and say thanks for supporting my child, which
just been the response. And it is so dangerous when
you see that this is becoming normal exactly. So, I
do think that there are people out there that are
just like, oh, I just love this baby, and I
have slipped into an unhealthy fixation on this baby. Perhaps

(42:37):
not badly intentioned, yes, but you are so right that
that that there are people for whom they do have
bad intentions. And it is about sexualization and greaming and
it's gross like it like I'm what I want to
talk about today is like just the tip of the
iceberg with how dangerous and gross this stuff can because

(43:00):
truly it's just like very dark. There is a trend
called role playing, no not Dungeons and Dragons, role playing
like that this is what people Annie and I bet
you were like. So this is a this is a
trend that I actually had not heard of until I
researched for this episode, where people on the internet will
steal photos of other people from social media and make

(43:24):
new fake accounts of these people with like made up
stories and identities. Now, sometimes this can be like mostly harmless,
other than the fact that, like, it's not cool to
be taking pictures of kids from the internet, but like,
some people are doing this just and it's not it's
not necessarily harmful. But in other cases, some of the

(43:45):
backstories and like fictional situations involving the identity of children
and the pictures that they are using are sexual. And
so there's this influencer Katie Rose Pritchard. She told Good
Morning America that one day that she discovered all these
social media account made for each one of her kids,
but they were actually strangers pretending to be her, like

(44:05):
very young toddler children typing in like baby voice in
camptions on Instagram. She told Good Mortoring America that she
noticed that among these role playing posts on social media,
they used hashtags like kid RP or baby RP to
indicate that's what it is, and that there's like a
massive community of people doing this, some of whom are
describing obviously sexualized fictional situations involving her toddlers, and probably unsurprising,

(44:34):
she was enraged and horrified, and I think, you know,
there's so many different avenues to this, but one is
that it's obviously a social media platform accountability issue. Katie
Rose pritchards that she reached out to Instagram to have
this content taken down, and that at first Instagram told
her that people making fake accounts of her kids and

(44:56):
putting them in these sexual fictional situations was not against
their community guidelines, but eventually she just kept having her
followers report the content and Instagram did eventually take it down.
So she decided that she was going to stop posting
pictures of her kids on social media, even though she
was an influencer and this had resulted in brand deals
and partnerships and all of that, but that it just

(45:17):
wasn't worth it, because she was like, even though Instagram
eventually did the right thing and took these pictures of
my kids down, who knows where they could be. She's like,
I'll never know how far their pictures traveled what dark
corners of the Internet her kids images are on and
that is really scary. Yeah, And you know, just to
add a wrench in this whole thing is with the

(45:39):
ideas of deep fakes and AI technology which takes straight
from content from the Internet. There are so many disturbing
things that's out there just knowing half of that and
that being faked and what it's being used for. And
again there's no loss to truly stop this. This is
kind of like the freedom of speech. As long as

(46:00):
you're not violating that child and you're doing images that
resemble and say this is not truly done. All you
have to do is alter something, and it can't. They
can escape the log because there is no law for it.
And with the realization that once you put it on
the Internet, there's no ownership two ownership, as much as
you would like to think there is, there's no true
ownership to the content that you are posting. Yeah, to

(46:21):
your point about deep fakes, mom Uncharted on her TikTok
has talked about again it's so dark that I hate
to even go there. But like there are marketplaces for
deep fakes. People have been like, here's an image of
a person, not always an adult. Sometimes it's a child
I would like to see digitally manipulated, like AI generated

(46:45):
images of this child in sexual situations. That is a
thing that happens. And I know that it is dark.
And it's like, on the one hand, you feel awful
when someone's like posting a cute picture of their kid
being I'm like, well, did you know that this could out?
Why but on marketplace on the dark side of the Internet.
But I have to say the truth. It's like, it's like,

(47:06):
what is happening? And I think it's a reason why
more and more influencers are and people in general are
keeping their kids off of the Internet. Like I don't
have kids, but if I was a parent, I don't
think I would put my kids on social media. I
just I think that with all that I now know,
and I didn't always know this, I know this from

(47:26):
research from now that I know all the different really
dark up gross corners of the Internet out there, I
just feel like it would be a safer bet to not, Like,
I don't know what it would give me to introduce
that into my kid's life. And this, you know, this
is a growing thing these days. The influencer that I

(47:49):
was just talking about, she wrote on Instagram. I can
be angry at Instagram all day long and nothing will
change until we change. Instagram is not to blame for
the exploitation of my children. I am. They have no
response ability and usually come back with we have no
control over what our users posts. They simply do not care.
And it's I think that Instagram is really abdigating responsibility here.

(48:13):
But on the other hand, Katie is not wrong about
this that like it really, if platforms aren't going to
do anything to keep young people safe online, they should
an absence of them being leaders and doing what they're
supposed to be doing to keep kids safe, we have
no choice but to act. And I know that that
is like it should not be that way. But if

(48:34):
platforms are going to allow but kind of dark stuff
involving kids that they do allow, we have to be
the ones who are making good decisions to keep our
kids safe. Right Well, obviously, as you said at the
very beginning, as a parent, your first responsibility is the
safety of your child. It should be, and that's that's
kind of the intent to begin with. And so even

(48:56):
though yes, you may not be doing any of these
dark and coable things. You're like, I've I keep talking
about it, but like I have had nightmares of the
darkness that happens to children, unfortunately, because of the things
that I have witnessed personally, Like, that's just a thing
that will always be ingrained in my head. It's terrifying,

(49:17):
it's awful, and I hate that that's a part of
my psyche and that that's part of the thing that
I share with people. But it is really naive to
believe that everything is sunshine and puppy dogs, because I
would love that, that would be amazing. That's why I
can't watch dark things because I don't want a little

(49:37):
in that world. But I've seen it, and you know,
as you've researched more things, it gets uglier and uglier.
And as Instagram should be held responsible for some things,
it is also again the parents' responsibility at the very
jump for to protect a child. And unlike it sounds
like this one influencer did an amazing job and trying

(49:59):
to back track because you don't think about that. It's
an amazing it's a great thing to not have to
think about that, but to win your face with it,
to realize you need to do some damage control, but
there's those out there who as long as they get
the money, as dark as that seems, it doesn't seem
to care, and there's no law to protect the children,
it seems exactly. So this is something that really bombs

(50:20):
me out, grosses me out because you might be thinking, like,
surely parents are not knowingly making money off of their
kids content being served up to adult creeps. But I'm
sorry to report that that is what is happening with
some of these like mom run accounts. Sarah of Mom
and Charged told me that she sees these mom run
accounts of young girls as sensibly a platform to share

(50:41):
their daughters like modeling pictures or like gymnastics pictures. But
when you click in, as you were saying, the people
who are following that page are grown men. The people
who are saving the images. So if you post something
on TikTok or post something on Instagram so you can
see who saves it, the people saving that are grown men.
And when you click into these profiles of the people following,

(51:04):
oftentimes it's like not it doesn't take you know, a
detective to see like, Okay, this is an image of
a grown man. Who are they following accounts like hot
young bikini girls things like that, like it's pretty clear
what's going on. And then these men will leave comments
on pictures of their kids that are like wow, what
a hot picture, and mom will go in and like

(51:25):
that comment, right, And so it's sort of this weird
thing where it's done under this kind of like plausible
deniability of like, oh, it's just a modeling page, like
you're the one sexualizing my kid, but come on, like
you you know what this is. I've even seen some
of these accounts go so far as to sell images

(51:46):
of like you want to buy a photo set of
my daughter's gymnastic pictures, or even by their used clothing,
like we know, like we all see what's happening. They
can they can hide behind this is a modeling thing,
you know, this is you know whatever, it's clear what's
going on. You are making money from exploiting your kid,
and that is just what's happening. I think at the

(52:08):
very least, let's just call it what it is. Don't
dance around it, don't use this plausible deniability. Everyone knows
what's going on. Cut the crap, you know. We recently

(52:30):
did an episode on YouTube and this is a very
similar situation happening where there are videos of young kids,
mostly young girls, and getting several comments like this from
grown men. And as we've been alluding to this whole time,
there aren't specific laws in place to protect kids from this. Correct,

(52:56):
that's right, and so when you think about it, it's
kind of weird. There's not right. Like when it comes
to kids making money off of their labor. We have
all kinds of rules and policies and regulations in place
here in the United States. You know, media companies that
work with kids for like films or commercials or modeling
or whatever, they have very strict labor laws like I

(53:16):
used to do, like child modeling and child acting when
I was a kid. Like they have very very specific
labor laws. But the Fair Labor Standards Act, a nineteen
thirty eight law that addresses excessive child labor, and the
California Coogan Act, which protects child actors. Neither of those
have been updated to include children online, like the children

(53:39):
of influencers, children who are being used as content. And
so it is definitely a situation where our technology has
advanced quicker than our laws have because they're currently zero
laws that in the United States that regulate how children
work on social media and how they can appear in
ads on social media that generate money, but that actually
might be changing soon. Organ Sung reported that an eighteen

(54:01):
year old college student named Chris McCarty wanted to advocate
for kids rights to privacy after learning about that influencer
Mica Stelfer, the one who you might recall we were
just talking about, she wanted to adopt a special needs child.
She did adopt that child, extensively shared intimate content about
the health needs of her adoptive child before deciding that

(54:24):
those medical needs were too much and having him quote rehomed.
As she put it, well, that inspired Chris McCarty to
start advocating for the way that kids are used online
and like advocating for protections for these kids. McCarty started
the site Quit Clicking Kids, which is described as an
advocacy and education site to combat the monetization of children

(54:44):
on social media. And when Chris was a senior, they
cold emailed like a bunch of lawmakers and eventually ended
up working with Representative Emily Wis to craft HB sixteen
twenty seven, which is a bill that would protect quote
the interests of minor children featured on for profit family
vlogs by requiring the parents of kid influencers to set
aside part of that revenue from their content into a

(55:06):
separate fund so that their kids can access them into adulthood.
And it would also grant the children of influencers the
right to request the permanent deletion of their likenesses, names,
or photos from any Internet platform or network that provided
compensation to the individual's parent or parents in exchange for
that content, and so platforms under this new legislation, platforms

(55:27):
would have to take reasonable steps to permanently delete video
segments of such children. That was one of the things
that like in researching for this episode and reading the
accounts of young people who were the used solely, like
they were the sole focus of their parents content. One
of the things that they say is I can't delete
it from me. I had no choice in the matter.

(55:48):
I was not able to consent. And now when you
google my name, all this stuff, intimate stuff comes up
about me, intimate stuff about my health, my body, my life,
all comes up, and there is no way to remove it.
And so I don't know how this legislation will shake out.
I'll keep you posted. But I do think it's it's
time that we really had our laws and our norms

(56:11):
catch up with where we are technologically. And I think,
you know, I think I think it's time. You would
think that we would have learned through the child actors stuff,
all the young actresses that had either that money stolen
or gone through so much abuse, all those things that
you would you would have thought, yeah, we would learn
from those mistakes because some of these young kids making

(56:33):
multi millions of dollars, so that you would think that
with that kind of revenue, which is which is rare,
But those are the ones who arguing the money, are
the younger kids at this point in time, that we
would actually found a way by now that would protect
these kids, because inevitably they're the ones who kind of
bring it to bring it to as it is, like

(56:55):
we're not. It's not the older people who are creating
these new things and new new trends and new ways
of communicating, as the younger kids who are doing this
and learning how to do it better and or being
used for it like it's one of those things. They're
like it should be for them, So why wouldn't it
are automatically protect them exactly. Like I love cute kids

(57:18):
on the Internet as much as anybody else in a
healthy way. But like corn Kid, I don't know if
you guys remember corn Kid. He was this like adorable
little kid who was interviewed at a state fair eating
corn and he was like when I had it with butter,
everything changed and he was like an overnight sensation. And
I remember thinking like, oh, what happened to corn Kid?
How's he doing? And Corn Kid is quote retired, and

(57:40):
I just loved that, you know, somebody in his life
was like, hey, this we've had this overnight unexpected viral fame,
but you could retire. You know, this doesn't have to
be something that you, you know, do, This doesn't have
to be something I think I think I did say
that he was on cameo, But this doesn't have to
be something that you, you know, make your entire identity

(58:02):
and you're just a kid, you don't you don't have to,
you know, decide to go into internet social media stardom,
entertaining strangers because you had this one viral moment. And
so I really that really heartened me to see that
somebody in his life gave him the space and the
language of being like, oh yeah, I'm retired as corn
kid to make a choice for himself and protect his

(58:24):
protect his identity a little bit, protect protect his peace,
because I do think, like, yeah, the Internet is forever,
and I really feel for these kids who don't get
a choice in becoming these Internet stars and have to
live with it for life. And I think, you know,
I do think the tide is turning a little bit.

(58:45):
I think that we're seeing more and more one more
and more children who were used in this way as
content speaking up about what that experience was like for them.
And I think we're seeing more and more influencers stop
showing their kids on social media or do so in
ways we're a little bit more thoughtful. Right, So you'll
see influencers not showing their kids face or including their

(59:05):
kids in their content, but just showing their hands at
the back of their head, so that it's not just
you know, performing on command for the entertainment and monetization
of your platform. Right. And you know, I think people
took a page out of these big celebrities who realize
who lived in the limelight. We're like, we're not putting

(59:27):
our children through that and go through everything to try
to cover at least like protect their identities. And I've
done so much better recently, I mean not some, but
you know, and then they're learning this could be really damaging,
like you said, and that core and kid so cute.
He literally I think they asked him much later after
everything we viral, like what do your friends think of that?

(59:48):
And they're like, my friends don't know. They don't know
anything about this because the parents did such a great
job in keeping them isolated away from all of that
because they didn't want him to be scrutinized, made fun
of or any of that. Because so many any of
them because he kind of I guess is it a
mame was the amazing I guess maybe eventually became that
that so many of those goods who were gifts or
memes were really humiliated as adults. Yeah, Like I think

(01:00:12):
it was BuzzFeed doing a series of what happened after
these people became memes. They actually have a really good one.
If you remember the girl this is gonna maybe date
me and people who are younger gonna be like, what
are you talking about? The girl who was photographed with
pigtails and a headgear, holding goosebumps books, if you if
she is a very her story is very fascinating. But yeah,

(01:00:35):
it's like these these people that we see on the Internet,
and because we're engaging with them through a screen, we
can kind of forget that they're real people who have
to go on to live real lives in the real world,
or they don't just exist frozen in time in this
meme where we first encountered them. They are real people. Yeah, her, Well,

(01:01:00):
as always, this has been so informative, Bridget, thanks for
bringing it to our attention. Thanks for making the time
to come on, and I'm sure we'll update on this
one because clearly we all have a lot of thoughts
about this, so would love to come back to this one. Well,
where can the good listeners find you? Well, you can
find me over at my own podcast. There are no

(01:01:22):
girls on the Internet. The episode that we did with
mom uncharted super interesting. She's just a really interesting person.
I would definitely recommend checking it out. Can follow me
on Twitter at Bridget Marie, on Instagram at Bridget Marie
in DC, or on TikTok at Bridget Mixed Podcasts. Yes,
love it, love it go check all of those things
out if you haven't already, listeners, and yes, thank you again,

(01:01:44):
Bridget can't wait to do this again next month. Update
on the food as well. Yeah, maybe we'll do it
from Mexico City, but you all come visit. Oh I
would love it. I just heard an invitation. I'm coming.
The bags are getting backed, the bags are getting parted
in Mexico. Oh, I can't wait. Well, Listeners, If you

(01:02:07):
would like to contact us that you can our emails,
stuff mediamil, stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find
us on Twitter at Months of Podcast or Instagram and
TikTok at stuff I Ever told You. Thanks as always
to our super producer Christina the best, the best, and
thanks to you for listening. Stuff one Ever told You.
Subrotection I Heart Radio for more podcast In my Heart Radio,
you can check out the radio ap Apple podcast wherever

(01:02:28):
you listen to favorite shows