TikTok ban signed into law. What happens next?

Don’t freak out! You can still use TikTok for the time being. But here’s where we could be headed.

Here's what TikTok's anticipated court challenge could look like: https://www.politico.com/news/2024/04/26/tiktok-congress-legal-00154688 

Alleged pro-Palestinian bias was part of the argument used to justify banning TikTok, but that argument doesn't make a lot of sense: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/11/13/tiktok-facebook-instagram-gaza-hastags/

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production
of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridge Todd and this
is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Welcome to
There Are No Girls on the Internet, where we explore
the intersections of identity, social media, and technology and y'all,

(00:24):
I take one week from rounding up the news and
we get the big update that is the big TikTok update. Joey,
were you surprised to see that Biden signed legislation essentially
banning TikTok into law this week?

Speaker 2 (00:40):
Like, I want to say that I'm I was surprised,
but at this point, I don't know, I'm not not
really not really surprised. I feel like, who's to say,
what's happening with this administration?

Speaker 1 (00:53):
So yeah, that's kind of how I feel. So I
want to tell folks like what's going on, and then
I'll get into sort of my thoughts about it. So,
in case you have not heard, this week, President Biden
signed a foreign aid package that includes a bill that
would ban TikTok if the China based parent company Byte
Dance fails to divest from the app and sell it
to a non Chinese owned company. We have been talking

(01:16):
about the potential for a TikTok ban for a while.
It sounds like there was some like very serious political
maneuvering to get where we are today. So earlier this year,
House lawmakers overwhelmingly voted in favor the bill called the
Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act when it
was brought as like a standalone measure with a shorter

(01:37):
timeframe for byte Dance to sell TikTok. So that timeframe
was six months. It seemed like that bill, even though
a lot of people in the House were like, yes,
this bill like it passed overwhelmingly, it seemed like it
might have had trouble passing in the Senate, Like key
Senate leaders were pretty noncommittal about it, some even signal
that they might not vote for it. So the way

(01:59):
to get this TikTok legislation through then became bundling it
into the High Priority Foreign Aid Package, which essentially forced
the Senate to take up the issue earlier than it
probably would have otherwise. Right, So, how this worked was
that in addition to separate votes on aid packages for Ukraine, Israel,
and Taiwan, lawmakers were also voting on the twenty first

(02:22):
century Piece Through Strength Act, which was sort of like
a grab bag of popular national security measures that Slate
reports included things like bills to seize frozen Russian assets
or the ability to impose sanctions on Ventanel traffickers, and
a lot more sort of like national security stuff, and
that the Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act

(02:44):
aka the TikTok legislation was sort of bundled within that
larger legislation. In order to get aid for any of
these countries, senators had to vote for the entire package,
which included the TikTok bills. That's kind of how we
got to where we are right now, where in earlier episodes, Joey,
you and I were like, oh, maybe it'll happen, like
maybe the Senate will pass it. I guess we're gonna

(03:06):
discuss it. We'll see how we went from that to like, oh,
now to sign into law.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah, it feels like the kind of thing that like
shouldn't happen in a functioning democracy. I will say, like,
I don't. It feels like the kind of thing that
maybe we shouldn't just have like a grab bag of
different legislation that has to all be passed together, which
all on its own is you know, open to scrutiny.

(03:32):
But yeah, the piece through strength act too like that.
I'm not one to say things sound like they're like
nineteen eighty four esque, but that is a nineteen eighty
four type law. Name like, are you serious like that?
I don't know, and yeah, no, I will, I mean,
like you said, I will admit I was. I honestly

(03:55):
did not think this is going to pass. I thought
the Biden administration current is facing ill a lot of
scrutiny about a lot of different issues, and a lot
of different issues, particularly.

Speaker 3 (04:05):
That young people are paying attention to.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
You know, I would have thought this maybe would have
been a little bit less priority for them, but guess not.

Speaker 3 (04:13):
Guess not.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
Yeah, that is so. So I want to get into
that because I feel like that is really coloring a
lot of a conversation is like that exact sentiment, And
I feel like, I think I've said this on the
show before that I thought that we would see a
TikTok ban in twenty twenty four, like I was. That
was on my my bingo card of legislation that I

(04:34):
thought was gonna happen. However, I think the fact that
we were talking about this standalone legislation and then we're
talking about it as bundled in these these foreign aid packages,
Like I guess, I'm surprised by how it ended up happening,
how quickly it happened. I thought we had a lot
more time, but here we are. So in the previous
version of this standalone legislation, Bite Dan's had six months

(04:57):
to sell TikTok to a non Chinese owner. But the
legislation that Biden just signed into law this week extends
that timeline. So the new law would allow TikTok to
continue to operate in the US if Fight Dance sold
it within two hundred and seventy days or about nine months,
a time frame that Biden could extend up to a year.
In case you're wondering, this timeline puts the date of

(05:17):
sale and whatever happens after that sale after the election
in November, which I cannot imagine is by coincidence. I
wonder why he picked that date, you know, So lawmakers
are really going out of their way to try to
make sure that people don't think of this as a
TikTok ban specifically, they're like, TikTok ban, what are you

(05:40):
talking about? Like, we love TikTok, We don't want to
keep TikTok from people. So Virginia Democrat Mark Warner, who
was one of the lawmakers who was really pushing this legislation, said,
I don't want to make clear to all Americans, this
is not an effort to take your voice away. Many Americans,
particularly young Americans, are rightfully skeptical. At the end of
the day, They've not seen what Congress said. They've not

(06:01):
been in the classified briefings that Congress has held, which
have delved more deeply into some of the threats posed
by foreign control of TikTok. But what they have seen
beyond even this bill is Congress has failure to enact
meaningful consumer protections on big tech and may cynically view
this as a diversion or worse, a concession to US
social media platforms. To those young Americans, Joey, I want

(06:24):
to say, we hear your concern, and we hope that
TikTok will continue under new ownership American or otherwise, what
do you think about that?

Speaker 2 (06:32):
You know, I really feel seen and heard I really
feel like the Democratic Party definitely got at all of
my concerns about this legigulation.

Speaker 3 (06:41):
I yeah, oh my god, that makes so much sense.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
Of course, it's just classified information that we haven't seen.

Speaker 3 (06:49):
It's I don't know, I mean.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
That's so that's such a ridiculous statement for so many reasons. Like,
first of all, that is so so paiere, and I
feel like that like we're in.

Speaker 3 (07:03):
A weird spot where I think a lot.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
Of politicians are very much like leaning on that, like well,
you know, it's just well, there's classified information you don't
know about or whatever, and I don't think that's working
as well in this situation, because, like the whole point
is it's an issue of freedom of speech, and it's
an issue of like, hey, you've had all these very
public congressional trials. I mean we all saw that the

(07:26):
congressional trial and the clip of them asking the Singaporean
CEO of TikTok if he was a member of the
Communist Party of China or whatever. So I feel like
that that excuse doesn't hold up as well. And then yeah,
like they're they're he just laid it out there, he said.

Speaker 3 (07:44):
You know, oh no, no, no, don't worry.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
The issue isn't that we're caving to us social media platforms,
except that is exactly what's happening.

Speaker 3 (07:53):
Like, Yeah, I don't know, it feels it's it's so.

Speaker 2 (07:59):
Strange and so patronizing, and I I think feel very
similarly to a lot of these young Americans that he's
addressing and that this this sounds like bullshit.

Speaker 1 (08:11):
And I think the reason why it sounds like bullshit
is that we just don't know what he's referring to.
It's classified, right, so exactly, you know, they've cited national
security concerns stemming from the app's Chinese ownership. Specifically, they
have talked about like the possibility of the Chinese government
like accessing data of American users or using the app

(08:32):
and it's like very powerful algorithm to spread propaganda or
influence elections and spread chaos. Right as far as I know,
like this is a little bit out of my wheelhouse,
as far as I know, to us the American people,
that is largely like theoretical, like oh, they could potentially,
they could do this. It's not like we have a
smoking gun of them doing that on like a wide scale.

(08:53):
I'm not in these these classified briefings, So I have
no idea. But members of Congress are referring to information
that they say that they have seen and heard in
the security briefings about the potential for TikTok to harm
American interests. But we just don't know about any of
that because the contents of these briefings are not public.
So we're just being told, TikTok this app that you're

(09:13):
using every day, that many many of these elected officials,
Biden included, are using all the time, it is this
massive security threat. Just trust us.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
I think the real issue is I think a lot
of these Congress people are just upset that they're not
getting the number of followers that I thought they would
get on TikTok. That's my theory because and that's understandable,
you know what, I get it. I've been frustrated sometimes
when I made a video that I put a lot
of effort into and I wanted it to perform better.
That's understandable. If that's your reason for wanting to ban TikTok,

(09:44):
just say that, I think you'll get a lot more
people on your side.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
Listen. I would be sympathetic. I tried TikTok and TikTok
for me was a flop. I am not a TikTok early.
It's just like, I have to accept that about myself.
So I would be if they came out and said that,
I would be they would have my sympathy. I'd be like, Oh,
my TikTok's never do numbers either. I get it.

Speaker 3 (10:02):
We all been there.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
So there is some talk of the need for transparency
into what these lawmakers are saying that like, we don't know.
Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal and Republican Senator Marshall Blackburn are
calling for TikTok briefings to be declassified so that the
government can quote better educate the public on the need
for urgent action. We are deeply troubled by the information

(10:25):
and concerns raised by the intelligence community in recent classified
briefings to Congress. TikTok is a weapon in the hands
of the Chinese government and poses an active risk to
our democratic institutions and national security.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
They wrote, Uh, Senators Blumenthal and Blackburn, that is the
duo that also brought you the Kids Online Safety Act.

Speaker 1 (10:43):
So oh, there we go.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
Take I mean, you know, I am very curious to
see what what I you know what I think. Actually, yeah,
if if they do release this information, if you show
the public what is what actually is the scary classified
information that that is the reason I need a band TikTok.
But knowing them and their history, it's probably just like
there were trans people on the app.

Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yes, And I think that Joey, I think that you
and I talked about this. Blackburn specifically earlier in earlier
iterations of the Kids Online Safety Act, was like pretty
explicitly when I asked like, oh, what's your beef with
the internet, Like why do you want to have this?
Why do you want to regulate it in this way?
She was like, oh, you know, we were planning on
using it to make sure that content about transidentity doesn't

(11:29):
reach youth. We want to keep youth from that kind
of unsafe information. And then people were like really, and
then she was like, oh, no, no, I was misquot
when I was misquoted, but it's like a video, so
you really were misquoted. I saw you say it on
a video with my eyes.

Speaker 3 (11:43):
Guys, it was out of context.

Speaker 1 (11:47):
That is really good, Like, I'm glad that you added that,
and honestly, like, when it comes to something as expansive
and impactful as like regulating the Internet or regulating the
social media apps that we use, which, by the way,
I don't want to make it seem like I'm like, oh,
platforms should just be able to do with they whatever
they want, Like that is not how I feel. However,

(12:09):
it does just highlight that like people like Blackburn, who
have a really clear public record of how she feels
and how she is going to use this kind of
Internet legislation and regulation to further marginalize and criminalize marginalize
people Like we're not making that up. She says that

(12:31):
it is concerning to me that these are the people
who are being tasked with making changes and laws about
how we access or don't access the Internet. Like that,
on its face is really troubling to me. Let's take
a quick break back, so find this on this legislation.

(13:07):
What happens now, Well, probably for all of us and
all of you listening, nothing really in the short term.
So first of all, TikTok is not going anywhere for
at least a couple of months. The countdown clock where
they need to sell has started, but like they have
eight months to do to figure that out. So It's
not like TikTok's not gonna work on your phone right now.

(13:27):
But even still, this probably is the beginning of what
will be a complicated legal challenge. TikTok has already signaled
that they intend to fight this legislation in the courts.
TikTok's chief executive show Too said, rest assured, we are
not going anywhere. We are confident and we will keep
fighting for your rights in the courts. Side note, it
is really interesting to me how TikTok has framed this

(13:51):
as like we are fighting for your rights. Like I
love TikTok. I'm actually wearing a TikTok sweatshirt right now,
I cut from an event, which like, it's not because
I'm in the bag for big TikTok. Although if they
wanted to pay me, no, I'm just kidding. No, I
don't take money from social media platforms. But yeah, yet,

(14:11):
I mean, nobody's made me a compelling offer this This
sweatshirt is very nice, but it's not gonna cut it. Yeah.
I think it's interesting how they've been able to publicly
frame this as like, oh, we're not fighting for our
like platform that we run and own and make money
from we're fighting for you and your rights. Like It's
an interesting framing one that I don't totally agree with,

(14:35):
but I get why they're I get why they're framing
it that way. Like when I was looking at the
images from some of the in person like rallies in
support of TikTok, TikTok had clearly given out signs for
folks to hold that would say like, I'm one of
the however many TikTok users there are in America who
wants my rights represented. Like they've really been able to

(14:56):
frame this as like a grassroots like we're just fighting
for your it's kind of thing like Airbnb. I feel like,
really set the playbook for how to how to make
it seem like, oh, this isn't like a big tech
company advocating in this way. This is like just local, grassroots,
mom and pop small businesses. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (15:16):
Oh, bridge it so it's like you, uh have some
some personal experience with the airbnbs or can I.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
Say I do? I do? That is a conversation for
another day. But I know quite a bit about it.

Speaker 2 (15:30):
Actually, Yeah, No, it has been strange though, I mean
I understand why they're doing it. It's a it's a
good like, for lack of a better word, propaganda technique
to get people to be on your side. And I mean,
I don't, I don't fully agree with what they're saying.

Speaker 3 (15:46):
But at the same time, it is.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
A First Amendment you know issue, and I it is
a it is definitely, it's definitely straight. We're in a
very strange well, I mean, I don't know, We're we're
walking around talking about what is happening kind of on
a larger scale right now in the US regarding freedom
of speech and the fact that there have been massive
crackdowns on peaceful protests and freedom of speech happening across

(16:12):
the country on college campuses and you know, beyond.

Speaker 3 (16:16):
But it is.

Speaker 2 (16:20):
This, Yeah, it is a weird situation. And it is TikTok,
you know, not necessarily. They don't have the best track
record of honoring that freedom of speech they're claiming to
be fighting for right now.

Speaker 3 (16:34):
But maybe they're turning a page. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
So it does sound like that TikTok is going to
be appealing this on First Amendment kind of free speech grounds.
According to The New York Times, the company is expected
to argue that a forced sale of TikTok could violate
its users free speech rights because a new owner could
potentially change the apps content policies and reshape what users
are able to freely share and communicate about on the platform.

(17:02):
TikTok actually already has some precedent for fighting bans in
the courts using exactly this logic, and the platform has
actually already won similar First Amendment battles in the courts
back when Trump was president. He tried to force a
sale or a ban of the app in twenty twenty,
but federal judges blocked that effort because it would have
had the effect of shutting down, quote, a platform for

(17:22):
expressive activity. We talked about this on the show a
while back, but y'all might recall that Montana tried to
ban TikTok in the state last year because of the
app's Chinese ownership, but a different federal judge ruled against
that state law for similar reasons. So far, there's actually
only been one state level TikTok ban that survived a
court challenge. It was super narrow. It only applied to

(17:44):
state employees in Texas, where the governor announced a ban
of the app on state government devices and networks in
twenty twenty two because of the Chinese ownership and related
data concerns. Professors at public universities challenged that ban in
the court, saying that it actually blocked them from being
able to do research into the app, which actually, to
me makes a lot of sense. A federal judge upheld

(18:04):
the state ban in December, finding that it was reasonable
restriction in light of Texas's concerns and that narrow scope
only impacting state employees. So that was the only time
that one of these bands was actually upheld in the court.
So there is like a strong track record for TikTok
being able to successfully fight these bands in the courts. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
Yeah, because I remember the Montana when we talked about
the Montana ban that did not work, And part of
the reason it didn't work is like it is like surprise, surprise,
It's hard to like ban an app that people already
have on their phones or you can then go to
another state or have a VPN or whatever to download.

(18:49):
It's really interesting because the Texas legislation is the only
one that I'm like, Okay, it is still ridiculous, but
I get where they're coming from with that, Like Okay, yeah, sure,
if it's a the issue is like we're worried about
the Chinese government spying on the US, Like yeah, okay,
if it's if it's government employees, like that I think

(19:11):
is more or less reasonable. Again, I still don't agree
with it because I think it is not coming from
any a, it's not coming from a reality, and then
b it's it is still I think, in my opinion
of freedom of speech infringement.

Speaker 3 (19:26):
But the fact that like I feel like and maybe
this is.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
Me having like a like a rosy view of like
the pre Trump administration sort of conversation around this, but
I feel like that is kind of would be the
most extreme legislation you would see around this for a
really long time, Like that would kind of be the
what would be like the more conservative viewpoint for a while.
And now it's just gone so far that it's like, no,

(19:50):
we're just going to completely ban this app.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yeah. That's actually what made me initially pretty convinced that
we would see a federal TikTok ban in our in
twenty twenty four was because how many different states we're
banning TikTok from like government or public like public university devices.
I almost like, oh, this is happening pretty swiftly. That
seems to be like the like the the there seems

(20:15):
to be a pretty quick vibe shift around this happening.
That's what kind of initially made me think like, oh,
I think this might this might actually be something that
we see.

Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, I think and I think again, Like like I said,
I'm just just because I don't think that it's it's
a reasonable legislation, because yeah, then that the element is
when you're just saying government, you know, employees or property
or whatever, that does also include yeah, like public universities
and a lot of things that aren't necessarily like the
government government.

Speaker 3 (20:44):
Right, Yeah, this.

Speaker 2 (20:48):
Is it has been a weird road to get here
and here we are.

Speaker 1 (20:53):
Yeah, And I think it gets even weirder when you
ask the question of like, okay, so the government will
be forcing a sale to a different owner that is
not based in China, is there a buyer? Like who
would buy it? And the answer to that is like
not clear. TikTok has a pretty hefty price tag, so
it's like not clear who could even afford it? You know.

(21:16):
My initial thought was like oh, elon musk. I feel
like these guys don't really have money, like they say,
like either think you're a billionaire, but all your money
is tied up in like lawsuits and shit.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
Because my immediate reaction was also that too, where I
was like, oh, no, it's.

Speaker 3 (21:28):
Gonna happen again, and I was like.

Speaker 2 (21:30):
Wait, he's still paying off his bills for Twitter, Like no, no,
we're good. I think they should just we should like
like they should just keep like bringing the price dout,
like you know, supply and demand that whole thing. I
think I think we can get a a There are
no girls on the internet controlled TikTok by the end

(21:50):
of the year. If, oh my god, to keep bringing
the price down, that's my proposal. Bridgeon.

Speaker 3 (21:55):
I think we should purchase TikTok listeners.

Speaker 1 (21:58):
Let's pull our money.

Speaker 3 (22:00):
Actually, I mean it's let's start to go fund me.
Let's go It's funny.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
You say this. Just yesterday, one of my favorite disinformation reporters,
formerly of NBC, Ben Collins, announced that him and his buddies,
this is going to sound like a joke, but it's not.
They pulled their money and they bought the onion. So
that just happened something familar. Yes, I'm I'm I hand

(22:23):
to God. Look it up. Ben Collins formally NBC disinformation reporter.
They was announced yesterday morning, like oh Geomdia sold the onion.
It's not clear to who they sold it to. And
I was like, oh, I've never heard of this, this
media conglamorate or like this investor group. Wonder who that is.
Later that evening, Ben Collins was like, yeah, it was

(22:43):
me and my friends. We got together and pulled their money.
So now I'm the CEO of the Onion. We're bringing
it back, we're giving we're rehiring everybody, We're allowing the
stack to control it to in everybody. So that was
like like a rare piece of like in my book
good Media. He was like good, good people pulling pull

(23:03):
pulling their money and actually buying a cool thing, like
it could happen. It could happen.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
For a second, I thought you met like just like
he was doing disinformation, Like.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
Oh yeah, because no, can you imagine that you're a
if you're like a bad actor who spreads disinformation and
you buy a well known satire site, like the possibilities
are endless.

Speaker 3 (23:32):
That's how we got x so.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
It's so drunk, like literally it was because of like
the Bablon be getting found or whatever.

Speaker 3 (23:41):
Oh my god, Yeah no, that's wow.

Speaker 1 (23:44):
So yeah, we could tangoty.

Speaker 2 (23:47):
We could own TikTok uh it was on subscribers. You
guys get a share of the I watched succession. I
know how this stuff works. Yeah, we we could do it.
You know, we're we're listen.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
If Elon Musk could do it, Joey, you and I
could certainly do it.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
We could run. We could run TikTok. I think we
do really good. We would definitely do better than Elon Musk.

Speaker 1 (24:12):
Oh, I have no doubt, no doubt. So probably not
Elon Musk buying TikTok. A big American tech company like
Meta or Google. They might have the money to afford
the like hefty price tag, but they probably would not
be able to purchase it because of anti trust concerns.
Right now, Meta is currently fighting a Federal Trade Commission

(24:34):
lawsuit that alleges that it's purchased of WhatsApp and Instagram
violated US anti trust law. So the FTC is like
actively seeking to break that company up. So I don't
think that Zuckerberg and Meta are going to like pylon
there right now. Back in twenty twenty, there had been
some lofty talks of maybe Microsoft with some involvement from

(24:56):
the retailer Walmart, partnering to buy TikTok. This is back
when Donald Trump was pushing for a sale. But it
sounds like those conversations like didn't really go anywhere. It
could be a private equity firm or a group of investors.
A former Trump administration Treasury secretary, Stephen Minuchein said that
he wanted to put a group of investors together to
buy it. Like what a nightmare that would be, Like

(25:19):
a Trumper owning TikTok, Elon Musk owning Twitter, Zuckerberg owning
face like like are like are oh, I don't even
want to think about that. That would be guys.

Speaker 3 (25:31):
Tumblr's still out there.

Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah you can buy They're like nobody used like like
I want someone to like buy one, like buy Zanga
bring that back right, like like like like zig instead
of yeah big instead of zagging. Well, everybody's talking about
these big platforms. Who's buy who's buying up like the
smaller platforms to bring those back? Remember Bisco that Like

(25:56):
I remember that was one of the first like aesthetics
that was ever on my radar, like the Visco lasthetics.

Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah yeah, all right, p Visco girl, Visco girl, What
happened to Visco?

Speaker 3 (26:08):
That's a yeah. She had her moment, she.

Speaker 1 (26:10):
Had her time. So the entire thing is just very
messy and very complicated, especially thinking through what it would
actually look like logistically for TikTok to divest from byte Dance.
There was just a recent report in the Financial Times
that spoke to two dozen current and former employees that
said that TikTok has only become more deeply interwoven with

(26:32):
byte Dance as tensions over the apps ownership have escalated.
The legislation that biden sign prohibits any connection between TikTok
and byte Dance after a sale. Yet TikTok employees use
fyt dance software in their communications, and the company's employees
are global, with executives in Singapore, Dublin, Los Angeles, Mountain View, California,
and elsewhere. So it's unclear if byte Dance would actually

(26:54):
even consider selling TikTok's entire global footprint or just its
US based operations, where it has about seven thousand employees.
Like what it would actually logistically look like for byte
Dance to just sort of tether its US based operations
for TikTok. It's like unclear. It seems like it would
be pretty complicated, and because a big source of concern

(27:16):
is specifically TikTok's algorithm that controls and dictates what American
audiences see, there was some talk of TikTok maybe trying
to move forward in the US with a version of
TikTok that is not controlled by an algorithm to see
if that changes things, but that would also be pretty complicated.
The apps recommendation algorithm, which figures out what users like
and serves up content, is really a key part of TikTok.

(27:39):
It's kind of like what makes TikTok TikTok. But Chinese
engineers work on that algorithm, which byte Dance owns, so
untethering all of that to move forward in the US
might be kind of tricky. I also read yesterday that
byte Dance said that they would actually prefer to shut
TikTok down in the US rather than sell it if
the Chinese company exhausts all legal options to fight legislation

(28:02):
to ban the platform, So they would just be like, oh,
we would rather just like not operate in the US,
shut it down there and keep going. And honestly, like
you might be thinking like, oh, that would be a
bad financial move, but I believe that that's only twenty
five percent of their revenue. Like, I don't think that
TikTok is a huge part of the byteedance entire portfolio.

Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah, and they're also I mean not to diminish the
like buying power of the US and how like important
this is on a kind of economic scale, but also
like there's there are many other countries out there that
probably would continue to use TikTok, and I.

Speaker 3 (28:39):
Don't I don't know, I feel like they're gonna be fine.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
Yeah, I feel exactly the same way. And you know,
something that you were saying earlier is that, you know,
Mark Warner in his statement was like, oh, well this
is don't I don't want people to cynically think we're
just like in the bag for big tech, but this
is a big win for American big tech companies. I
bristle at the framing of this as like a business

(29:02):
story when it's so much more. But it does need
to be said that Facebook has been trying to destroy
TikTok for kind of a while. Folks might recall that
Facebook reportedly tried to buy TikTok's predecessor, the lip syncing
app Musically, back in twenty sixteen, but byt dance Is
ended up acquiring it instead and that became TikTok. So
they tried to buy it didn't work. When that didn't work,

(29:26):
Facebook did that thing that tech companies do, which is like,
I will create a similar but less good version of
my competitor. So in twenty twenty, Facebook launches Reels, which
was which is you know, was like that short form
video app for a while. It was essentially just like
identicals of TikTok, only the content that you would see
there was like a couple of weeks old. Like my

(29:47):
friends who didn't have TikTok, they'd always be like, oh
look at this real I saw, and it will be like
the thing that the thing that was like hot on
TikTok like a week ago. You know what I mean, right, Yeah?

Speaker 2 (29:55):
I and I love like a group channel Instagram, a
couple of my friends that are all lovely and this
is not a dig at them that a liberal often
send videos and I'm like, I saw that a month ago.

Speaker 3 (30:08):
But thank you for sharing it again.

Speaker 1 (30:11):
Joey thinks your reels are whack.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
I think I'm sorry, I'm calling you behind the times
or whatever, But nobody responds to my TikTok dms, so
that's what you got.

Speaker 1 (30:23):
So reels has grown pretty steadily thanks to its aggressive
integration with Instagram. Like when you scroll Instagram, you're basically
just like getting sort ofd real. So they definitely have
done some trickery there to like force us all to
consume reels whether we want to or not, whether it's
against our will or not. TikTok has maintained its hold
on younger users while also making inroads with adults. For

(30:46):
a long time, people talked about TikTok as like, oh,
the dancing app for kids. That was never even really
true even back then. But like it is certainly not
true now. The majority of people on TikTok it's young people,
and it's like people in their thirties, and so it's
this idea that it's just an app that's popular with kids.
Is this not true?

Speaker 2 (31:05):
Also, again, I'm gen Z and I'm in my twenties. Like,
there plenty of people that are gen z that are
like young adults now, yeah, also use TikTok.

Speaker 1 (31:17):
Absolutely. So we did a podcast episode about this with
TikTok researcher Abby Richards. But basically Facebook's big thing here
was really successfully demonizing TikTok. Mark Zuckerberg talked about TikTok
in a speech he made at Georgetown University in twenty nineteen.
He said, while our services like What'sapp are used by

(31:39):
protesters and activists everywhere due to strong encryption and privacy
protections on TikTok, the Chinese app growing quickly around the world,
mentions of these protests are censored even in the US.
Is that the internet we want? Which? First of all,
if you are a protester, you're probably using Signal And
this is me like again, I'm not being paid by Signal.

(31:59):
If you're protester or activists, you signal, don't use What's App.

Speaker 2 (32:02):
I don't know anybody that is like like a like
out like an activist, like really really out there activists
like that uses WhatsApp to talk about like organizing.

Speaker 3 (32:12):
Also yeah, like wow, uh, famous famous.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
Supporter of protesters and activists everywhere, Mark Zuckerberg.

Speaker 1 (32:21):
Yes, friend, to the activist, friend to the protester, Mark Zuckerberg,
freedom of speech advocate, I what that is?

Speaker 3 (32:32):
Yeah, that's ridiculous.

Speaker 1 (32:33):
And of course it's not like a platform like Facebook
or threads whatever suppressed content about politics or protests or
social movements like they would never like what, they would.

Speaker 3 (32:42):
Never do that.

Speaker 2 (32:43):
There definitely was not a graphic going around Instagram that
I reposted. A lot of my friends were posted about
how to go into your settings and turn off the
automatic thing that like limited political quote unquote political content
on everybody you know, for you page or whatever it's
called on on Instagram, their Instagram stories or whatever. That

(33:04):
just coincidentally is happening now and absolutely has nothing to
do with anything happening.

Speaker 3 (33:11):
In real life in college campuses right now.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
And you know, these protesters that Mark Zuckerberg is like
best friends with, they definitely definitely this has nothing to
do with that.

Speaker 1 (33:23):
Yeah, absolutely, So you know, we talked about this on
the show before that. The Washington Post in twenty twenty
two reported that Facebook had been paying this major Republican
consulting firm called Targeted Victory to push local stories and
op eds that really painted TikTok as this danger to
society and a danger to young people. Specifically, they talked

(33:45):
about like all of these dangerous viral TikTok trends, many
of which happened to actually have started or been spread
on Facebook. So it was just this this tactic to
be like, oh, TikTok is so dangerous, when the things
that they were calling out Facebook either also spread or
were the originators of a lot of these narratives really
caught on with lawmakers, who then raised them in congressional hearings.

(34:08):
There was also this piece in Politico about how TikTok
kind of misplayed the Washington lobbyist game, counting on their
large number of users to prevent Congress from actually taking action,
while not meaningfully responding to these national security concerns that
lawmakers were bringing up until it was kind of too late.
I do think that TikTok, because so many people use
it and because people feel strongly about it, I think

(34:29):
that they really relied on that, like, oh, that alone
is going to be enough to defend us from these
claims and to keep us strong footing in the United States.
I think they perhaps misplayed their hand there.

Speaker 4 (34:48):
More After a quick break, let's get right back into it.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
So I want to talk about something that you've brought up,
which is like what I actually think is going on here.
So we've talked a ton on the podcast about how
I think that lawmakers like want to look tough on
big tech while also remaining very cozy financially with American
big tech companies. I also think that they want to
look tough on China's so this is sort of like

(35:24):
a two birds, one stone kind of thing. But I
also think that increasingly this is really about young people
and support for Palestine. So the Washington Post has a
really interesting piece that will put in the show notes,
basically breaking this down. They write, when congressional Republicans this
month repeated their long running calls for a nationwide ban
on TikTok, they highlighted a data point that they said

(35:45):
was proof of the apps sinister underpinnings. The number of
TikTok videos with hashtag free Palestine is dramatically higher than
those with hashtag stand with Israel. The gap, they said,
offered evidence that the app, owned by Chinese tech giant Fyteedance,
was being used to boost propaganda and brainwash American viewers. So,

(36:07):
like I think that's really kind of a big piece
of this why we are seeing this anti TikTok legislation
being bolstered, particularly right now. But as that Washington Post
piece points out, Facebook and Instagram, TikTok's US based rivals
show a remarkably similar gap. On Facebook, the free Palestine

(36:29):
hashtag is found on more than eleven million posts, thirty
nine times more than those with hashtag stand with Israel.
On Instagram, the pro Palestinian hashtag is found on six
million posts, twenty six times more than the pro Israel hashtag.
So I think that what's going on here is that
I think lawmakers are seeing people being supportive of Palestine,

(36:50):
particularly young people, and they're like, what explains this. It
has to be TikTok. It has to be foreign medaling
or manipulation. It has to be like the Chinese government
and sowing chaos and confusion and manipulation with our youth.
And I really think that is a big part of
why we are seeing these renewed efforts.

Speaker 3 (37:09):
To ban the app exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:11):
Yeah, I think talking about this too, and this is
kind of this has been an ongoing conversation, is that
they're there have like the the political establishment and kind
of like the powers that be for a while have
been very shocked by this fact that quote unquote all
of a sudden, I'm not I don't think that's actually

(37:32):
the case, but like, all of a sudden, all of
these young people are being a little bit more skeptical
about the kind of like established narrative of what is
happening in Palestine and what's happening in Gaza, and I think,
you know, I think a lot of politicians and a

(37:52):
lot of these officials are have been sort of surprised
and taken aback by the protests. Again, I don't think
they should be, because I think, like a if you
look at history, there is a like a lot of people,
especially with the protests happening right now, have brought up
like Kent State and brought up a lot of the
Vietnam protests and sort of the similarities. It's like, there

(38:13):
isn't it's not like there isn't a president for this.
And then also like from their perspective, it's like, oh,
it's that these apps that are doing propaganda, but it's
like no, a lot of what is actually happening is
just that there are videos of what's happening on the
ground and god so that are going around social media.
There are you know, families that are trapped, There are

(38:34):
people that are on the ground there, There are reporters
that are on the ground there that are able to
get that information to a wider audience because of social
media and are able to you know, there are other
kind of options other than just sort of these legacy
media companies that are providing information about what's happening, and
that is making a lot of people question the sort

(38:54):
of narrative that they've been told about the situation. That
is making a lot of people want to look more
into these and I think for a lot of people, like.

Speaker 3 (39:01):
The patterns are sort of clicking.

Speaker 2 (39:03):
It is sort of like making sense that like hey,
you know, this isn't this isn't like a new thing.
This is like you know, I don't know, I was
growing up in sort of like the aftermath of the
like Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and like it's interesting, like
people keep pointing to Vietnam, but like that was really
not that long ago, Like you know, the the Iraq

(39:25):
War going into the Iraq War over a like complete
live was not that long ago.

Speaker 3 (39:30):
Like people remember that. People are responding to that.

Speaker 2 (39:33):
Young people remember that because like again, like myself, a
lot of us like grew up in the.

Speaker 3 (39:37):
Aftermath of that. I will say, I think a lot
of this this.

Speaker 2 (39:42):
Argument drives me insane, Like I'm not surprised by it,
because I do think it is like the easiest route
for the a lot of these politicians to go is
just the like, oh, it's just it's the kids that
are wrong or they they don't they're just you know, brainwashed.
There's no way that these you people that are studying
at universities and are paying attention to what's happening in

(40:05):
the news and are putting together, you know, the puzzle
pieces of like hey, what we're seeing isn't new. A
lot of this has happened before, and has happened repeatedly
in different contexts. Like there's kind of this idea that like, oh,
they don't understand anything, they just don't get it.

Speaker 3 (40:20):
They must be being brainwashed.

Speaker 2 (40:22):
That's the only explanation, because if there's any like any
other explanation would force me to acknowledge the fact that like, yeah,
a lot of this is very fucked up, but a
lot of this is like, you know, like it's easier
to kind of be patronizing to people than it is
to give them credit for how smart and thoughtful people

(40:45):
actually can be. And the fact that you know, what
is happening right now is very very clearly wrong and
fucked up and people are not happy about it. And
I think, yeah, it's easier to say say like, oh,
well there's being watch, let's stick with the status quote
than it is to actually want to make any change.

Speaker 1 (41:03):
Yeah, And I think like that, like that's why that
statement from Mark Horner hit me so weird, because it's like, ultimately,
I think that you're exactly right. These these arguments to me,
sound very limiting to young people. They sound very condescending
to young people. It makes it seem like young people
are not smart enough or with it enough to look

(41:24):
around at what's going on and make an assessment when
they absolutely are. It just feels very callous to me.
And I think like, given that we're in an election
year and we're hearing lots of elected officials and politicians
who want your vote, like signaling like, oh yeah, we
want the youth vote, it's like they're saying, we want
y'all's vote, but we don't think you're smart enough to
understand what's going on in the world.

Speaker 3 (41:45):
And we're also not going to listen.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
That's exactly like I mean, I a lot of people
have pointed out are like quoting Fras East Sire is
the bare minimum And what the Biden administration just finally
like made a statement kind of calling for a ceasefire
like a couple of weeks ago, right, Like it's I
think like this is they want they talk a lot

(42:08):
to talk about how important the youth vot is or
how important like marginalized groups are or whatever to this election,
and then they're doing nothing to actually address what people
are asking for and what people are and like, yeah, no,
like I'm sorry if you are actively suppressing the freedom

(42:28):
of speech of the group that you are trying to
get to vote for you, and then you're like to
the point where you are sending like the cops to
go mass arrest people for peacefully protesting, like like either
you're just stupid and short sighted or like you want
to lose, Like I don't know what to tell you
at that point.

Speaker 1 (42:47):
Yeah, And something else that you said is that this
idea that oh well, certainly this is coming from manipulation
via TikTok, Like this is young people are feeling this
way all of a sudden, and that's just not true.
Young Americans have consistently shown support for Palestinians in Pew
Research surveys, including in a poll in twenty fourteen, four

(43:08):
years before TikTok ever launched in the United States. And
so this idea that like, oh, it's just TikTok manipulating
young people with their algorithm, how do you have account
for the fact that younger people have consistently shown support
for Palestinians even before TikTok was ever a thing.

Speaker 3 (43:24):
Here exactly exactly.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
I mean, I don't like I I will say I
supposely as somebody who was was in college before TikTok
really took off, but like like kind of kind of
like literally like right before that time, like this was
it wasn't like this again. It wasn't like this appeared
own of nowhere. These were conversations that were happening. These

(43:46):
were like there were the efforts to for the camp,
the college that I went to, there were a lot
of major efforts to get them to divest from, you know,
fossil deal companies and also like a lot of these
companies that were you know, making weapons that were like
you know, actively do it.

Speaker 3 (44:08):
The companies that are that are.

Speaker 2 (44:10):
Doing this stuff that is now being you know broad
like now I think has reached a wider audience like that.
It's again, it's it's not like it came out of nowhere.
And I think anybody that is like paid attention to
the news or to current events or to like like
contemporary like politics or like global politics could tell you

(44:31):
that and could tell you that none of this is
like new and none of this is just like appearing
out of nowhere. But you know, it's a very convenient
narrative for the people that want to keep up the
status quo that this is just popped out of nowhere
and it's TikTok's fault, clearly.

Speaker 1 (44:45):
Yeah, And I think it really. I mean I I
was there for a lot of that. I got my
start as somebody who was like a leftist with campus
organizing like that was like like I was in high school,
when I was in I think tenth grade when nine
to eleven happened, and anti war organizing was just like that,

(45:10):
like that's when that became a thing for me, and
so it you know, I was in high school when
all that was popping off, and I was just started
like it was like my my up sort of political
or like radical consciousness awakening, and I was like the
exact right age for it. I will not sit here
and tell you that I had the perfect practice that
everything I ever did was like well, got out smart,

(45:32):
like logical blah blah blah. I mean I was nineteen
and I was in nineteen.

Speaker 3 (45:37):
You weren't like a perfect political like.

Speaker 1 (45:41):
Yeah, it was nineteen and I was high all the time.
And I guess I say that to say, like so
for me, it was anti war organizing. It was School
of the America's watch organizing, like like yes, that was
a little bit of a yeah, that was that was
a big part of what a what an institution.

Speaker 2 (45:59):
I'm I am morbidly fascinated by the School of the
Americas and all the very very terrible.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
Somebody needs to do a podcast thought it because it
is wild.

Speaker 2 (46:08):
I think, yeah, yeah, there's I think they did a
there was a be Hide the Bastards episode about about
School of the America's in particular. That was that was
one of the things that gotta be like on some
research spiral about it, but.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
Nice plug for our our podcast Cousins over that cool zone.
But yeah, I say this to say that it's hard
for me to look at what's happening right now on
college campuses and also look at the conversation happening around
TikTok and not be really concerned. Like I, young people
especially need to be able to express themselves politically and

(46:44):
to have places where they can learn about their political
selves and like express that. I like, like I would
not be who I am today if I did not
have that space to figure it out and to figure
out what that looks like.

Speaker 2 (46:55):
Yeah, I also want to add because I think Bridget
I think we've had like very soamiliar experiences with this,
and I something that I know has come up and
I I'm not gonna say what this group is because
I don't want to give them any more attention. But
there is a group that targets and dockses students that
students and university faculty that do that support Palestine or

(47:19):
support or they have a very broad definition of what
being quote unquote anti Israel or in their words like
anti smatic is. I like literally had a Jewish history
professor who like called herself a Zionist, was a liberal
Zionist and was targeted by this group. But I know
this was something that this particular organization, Like I had

(47:41):
a couple of like older people in my life that
recently found out about them, just because of some like
you know, obviously they've been doing a lot of toxic lately.
But I remember having a conversation with my dad actually
about this, and he was like so shocked that this
was happening, and he was like, this is awful, Like
I can't believe that, like they're targeting students, And I
was like, yeah, no, Like I have a lot of

(48:02):
friends that were docksed by them when we were like nineteen,
like we were like we were still teenagers.

Speaker 3 (48:08):
Like that was and like I think, like you were saying,
like I think, you.

Speaker 2 (48:11):
Know, obviously, I like I support the protesters. I'm standing
here and I agree with the protesters. Even if you don't,
you should be supporting people's like ability to use college
as an experience to like explore different political ideas and
realities and learn about there's always this big you know,

(48:34):
like the right loves to throw a fit over like oh,
like these like liberal campuses are in a bubble and
they don't know the real world. Like no, no, no, no, Actually,
the point of college a lot of times is to
meet people that have different experiences than you and to
like form these different and learn about these different ideas
and form these different ideas. And like, we should not
be at a place where simply trying to learn about.

Speaker 3 (48:56):
Other issues or trying to learn about different perspectives.

Speaker 2 (48:58):
Or whatever at Like, if that's what you're doing, we're
like advocating for causes you care about.

Speaker 3 (49:03):
Like that should not be reason to be docked. Like
before you could even.

Speaker 2 (49:09):
Legally drink, Like that is that that that's not something
that should be happening.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
Yes, And like I mean, like I we have a
I'm in the works on a whole episode about this.
This might be an unpopular opinion, but it is how
I feel having adults who might not even have a
real connection to university campuses saying things like, oh, if

(49:35):
a college freshman says xyz thing that is supportive of Palestine,
we should put their name and their information on a
truck and drive it around their community and make sure
that nobody ever hires them for the rest of their life.
Who is that helping? Like, like, I think that it's
an environment that like the conversation around camp, the campus

(49:58):
protests that are happening right now, it's it's just really
scary to me. I guess I'll just put it that way.

Speaker 2 (50:03):
It's really scary. I think none of this is new.
Is like a lot of what we're talking about. I
think that the advent of social media and the fact
that like they're obviously like as we're talking about, there
are a lot of positives and we're you know, having
this conversation to say that to the TikTok ban is
not going to be a good solution to all of
what's happening. Like, there are a lot of positive social media,

(50:24):
but I do think there is also a lot of
negatives in the fact that because it is so much
more visible, the reaction is going to be so much
stronger and there is going to be and yeah, yeah,
and again I one hundred percent agree with you, and like,
like nobody a what these students are advocating for is
they're advocating for peace. They're advocating for like the bare minimum,

(50:46):
like stop the fucking violence. Like there's so many, so
many people who die. This is insane. And but regardless
of what is happening, regardless of what they're fucking protesting,
regardless of what is being spoken about, nobody should be yeah,
nobody should be docs.

Speaker 3 (51:03):
Nobody should have.

Speaker 2 (51:04):
Their life potentially ruined or like attempted to be ruined
because of something they said when they were nineteen or
twenty or whatever.

Speaker 1 (51:11):
Exactly and folding it into the TikTok conversation. If young
people are not able to express themselves politically on their
college campuses, at college and then the digital spaces where
they would do that Twitter, you can't really do that
effectively right now if TikTok is banned. I just worry
that we are losing both irol and digitally places where people,

(51:35):
particularly young people are able to safely show up to
express their political beliefs, understand their political beliefs, refine and
sharpen their political beliefs. And that's not good. Like, I
really see these two things as related. The fact that
we have all of this suppression and crack down on
campus protest, while also the places and spaces where you
would digitally be able to show up and do that

(51:56):
are also being undermined. It just as I can't help
but see those two things that's happening together.

Speaker 3 (52:02):
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (52:04):
And I think a lot of the voices that are
talking about this moment in time, I think are like
really leading with a lot of anxiety and sort of
like I don't want to say concern trolling, but like
a lot of anxiety around youth and social media, and
like youth are miserable, they're supporting Palestine because they're on
their phones, which are making them miserable. I just feel

(52:26):
like we're not having good substantive conversations rising to the
top about what's going on in this very particular moment
in time.

Speaker 3 (52:34):
Yeah, actually off at that point.

Speaker 2 (52:36):
Not to sound conspiratorial or whatever, but I think it's interesting.
There were a lot of like articles and stuff that
were coming out that I do think we're very valid.
I do think make a good point, but if they're
about this fact. But like, and again, as somebody who
is kind of like the beginning of gen Z, I
lived through a lot of this, but it was like
all of these young people are sort of beginning to,
you know, question whether having iPhones all the time, having

(53:00):
smartphones all the time is actually good for us or
like having like growing up with this access to the
Internet and social media from such a young age was
a good thing, Like maybe it was actually sort of harmful.
And now we're seeing this next generation go through it,
and you know, there are there are a lot of
articles that we're coming out about, like here's this group
of like twenty something things that have decided to get
like Nokia.

Speaker 1 (53:20):
Phones, and I've read like yeh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:22):
Like all of that, and I don't, like, I think
that's great. I totally agree. And I will say, like again,
as somebody who spends a lot of time online and
a lot of time on the Internet, like I definitely I
need to detach a lot. I see a lot of
the negatives too, But at the same time, it's like
I still believe, like and I mean, I get like
this is a lot of the philosophy of the show
is like the Internet is a thing that exists. It's
the thing that it is a tool. It can be

(53:43):
a tool for bad, awful things. It could also be
a tool for organizing and activism and you know, changing
the world to be a or trying to make the
world a better place.

Speaker 3 (53:53):
Like it can be, and it also can be a
place for community.

Speaker 2 (53:57):
It can be like I I've found a lot of
community online spaces.

Speaker 3 (54:01):
I think, like.

Speaker 2 (54:05):
Just just inherently demonizing the idea like the Internet and
social media and whatever part of that is what gets
us to things like this, where then it's like, but
then we can't even look at the fact that, no,
like social media in this case, like again, if we're
talking about like the protests happening for Palestine right now,
social media has been a really really important tool for

(54:26):
organizing and for getting information out there. It hasn't been
the only thing that has been important. There are also
like a lot of other you know, actions that need
to be done and things that need to be done
and whatever.

Speaker 3 (54:35):
But you know, like I'm not.

Speaker 2 (54:38):
Saying that just posting a bunch of graphics on your
Instagram is like, you know, peak activism or whatever. But
also it is like it has been a very important
tool of getting information out there and getting and helping
to organize these protests. And I think if we if
we forget that, that's just gonna end up hurting all
of us. And I think that's kind of the direction

(54:58):
we're going with this legislation. That's scary, and.

Speaker 1 (55:01):
I think it. It just adds to this feeling of
just loss of faith in democracy and institutions. And I
think that, like particularly right now, that like people are
feeling so checked out from democracy that I just don't
I don't.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
Think we need it.

Speaker 1 (55:22):
I don't think that people need any other reason to
be even more disengaged and checked out. The spear from
Under the Desk news to we've had on the show
before you could think of V. They're kind of like
the Walter cronkinde of TikTok. They made it really yeah,
like V is everywhere. V made a really interesting point
they said, the consequence is not that TikTok gets banned,
it's that the American public loses faith even more in

(55:45):
the institution of government than they already have. And I
think that really for me, like sums up how I
think a lot of folks are feeling. Like I've seen
people say things like, oh, they'll ban TikTok before they
ban guns, or just like how weird it is to
be having these conversations. It's like seeing conversations where it's
like how close to death does someone who was pregnant

(56:05):
have to be before their doctor kind of bort their
non viable pregnancy. It just feels wrong when we have
all of these other really huge issues happening to be like,
oh and then they're gonna ban TikTok, like that's what
they're doing. Like I could understand how somebody watching watching
this moment in time is just like that's it. I
have lost what faith I had in the institution of

(56:26):
government because of this moment, Like I understand that the
way that people are responding in this moment.

Speaker 2 (56:31):
Yeah, And I mean, like I said before, I think
for all the hand ringing the Biden administration is doing
right now or the Democratic Party is doing about like
oh my god, like we're losing young people or not
having young people engaging, or we're losing the sort of
like loyalty quote unquote of like all these marginalized groups
that you know, previously would have been a big part

(56:53):
of our.

Speaker 3 (56:55):
Voter base.

Speaker 2 (56:57):
For all the hand ringing and for all the complaining
about that they're not doing anything to make to motivate
people to want to support them, and they're not doing
anything to like actually show that, yeah, like that we
live in a functioning democracy, Like this is a like
this is very clearly a sign that that is, that

(57:19):
is not what's happening.

Speaker 3 (57:20):
But this is not a.

Speaker 2 (57:21):
This this this is an example of democracy not functioning
the way that it is supposed to. And I think,
like you can't be having that sort of like moral
high ground or yeah, like handwringing about it if then
you're not actually going to put in the work to
to to make these systems work the way that you
claim that they are supposed to work.

Speaker 1 (57:40):
Exactly, and then folding in the breakdown of these tools
that have been used to allow people who are marginalized
to build platforms and express themselves and build political power,
you know, like if there's no TikTok and there's no
real Twitter and meta is deprioritizing political and social issues
kind d on their platforms, Where will we get the

(58:02):
next Black Lives Matter? Where will we get the next
meet to? How will we like build power and mobilize?
Like I am a person who believes that marginalized people
will always find a way, Like we'll always make a
way out of no way. That is what we do.
But I just don't want to get into this place
where we have to keep rebuilding. We have to keep
building new platforms. One platform goes poof, and so then

(58:23):
we have to spend all of this energy and time,
our resources that we know are not infinite, their finite,
rebuilding and redoing this like it just after a while,
it gets really tired and like people get burnt out,
and I just think like, yeah, we're just in this
very particular moment that I really see a lot of
those a lot of those chickens coming home to roost.

Speaker 2 (58:44):
And this is why I think we need to revive
Tumblr and we all need to go back to Tumblr
and start using Tumblr again.

Speaker 3 (58:51):
But although that's not also not a very functional website.

Speaker 1 (58:55):
This is why there are no girls on the Internet.
Community needs to band together and bye bye.

Speaker 3 (59:01):
TikTok exactly support go fund me.

Speaker 1 (59:05):
Yeah, I'll send the link around for folks to donate
and we'll we'll get a Google dot go. And I'm
like your organizer friend who's like, as soon as the
idea is floated, like I will circulate the Google dot
so we'll get we'll get our content moderation policies together
in that Google doc. Joey, thank you so much for
being here. This was this was like when this news
came down, I was like, I cannot wait to find

(59:27):
out what joey things you're my like TikTok correspondent correspond Yeah,
in a lot of ways. Uh, where can folks keep
off with you?

Speaker 2 (59:37):
You can find me on Twitter or Instagram at patnot prat.

Speaker 3 (59:42):
That's p A T t n O T p r
A T T.

Speaker 2 (59:46):
I also want to give a shout out to if
you like listening to there are no girls Leadernet or
any other of our iHeartMedia podcast and you want to
support the fantastic producer is that works super hard on
those shows, you should check out the iHeart Podcast Union socials.

(01:00:06):
You can find us on Twitter and hopefully by the
time this episode drops, also on Instagram at iHeart Pod Union.
That's yeah, iHeart Pod Union. Hopefully you can find it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
You'll figure it out.

Speaker 3 (01:00:24):
Figure it out, You'll figure it out.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
I'm not gonna tell you guys my TikTok, but if
you find it, come say hi. I don't know, it's
a lot of me like talking about like whatever piece
of media I've hyper fixated on for like a couple
of month span, So I don't know if you want
to Yeah, right now, it's been like DC comics.

Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
So if anybody is interested.

Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
You're welcome to try to find that, but I will
not be telling you what my user name is.

Speaker 1 (01:00:52):
I could see you having a podcast that's just called
like Joey's recent hyper fixationss Siperfixations.

Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
I I heard if you want to green light that, right,
let's make it happen.

Speaker 3 (01:01:05):
I feel like that's when I, oh, yeah, and then
I will that. That's kind of been my repertoire. And
on Stuff Mom Never told You.

Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
Another show that I am occasionally on has usually been Hey,
there's this thing that I just like, have been obsessed
with lately, can I come talk about it? But I
will be having a good episode coming up, coming out
on Sminty or on stuff Mom Never told you soon
about the Swifties and some of the the darker side

(01:01:33):
of online fandom. Uh, don't have a set date for that,
but I will update you guys when I do.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
I can out wait. You'll be here when that episode drops.
You will, we'll you'll, we'll be discussing it.

Speaker 3 (01:01:45):
I have a whole like conversation about this. We didn't
do like a round table.

Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
I was, yeah, like a swifty round table, A swifty
round table. I feel like I like I'm not. I'm
not a Swifty. I I mean, you know this about me.
I've gone from like not loving Taylor Swift to being like, oh,
actually I'm neutral on her, to now being like I

(01:02:09):
don't know anything about her music, but like, I would
like to be a Smifty and include me in your community. People.

Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
My thoughts on Taylor Swift are. I love her music.
I grew up listening to her music. She has been
one of my top artists on Spotify for like forever.
The fandom concerns me a lot, but I do think
she herself. I understand a lot of the criticism and

(01:02:38):
I support I don't. I think there's a lot of
her is a figure, is an interesting person. I try
to keep her separate from the music. That that's my
keeping the art separate from the artist. I think situation
is Taylor Swift. But yeah, I don't know if then
the latest thing is a bunch of Swifties are mad
at me because I said that one of the lines

(01:02:59):
and one for most recent songs sounded kind of dumb
and I apparently don't understand how metaphors work. The consensus
in the comments section, but.

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):
Yeah, well that's a great teaser for swifty convos to come. Joey,
thank you for being here.

Speaker 3 (01:03:19):
Of course, thanks for having me, Bridget.

Speaker 1 (01:03:21):
And thanks to all of you for listening. I will
see you on the Internet. If you're looking for ways
to support the show, check out our mark store at
tangodi dot com slash store. Got a story about an
interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi,
You can reach us at Hello at tangody dot com.
You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tengody

(01:03:42):
dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was
created by Me Bridget Toad. It's a production of iHeartRadio
and Unbossed Creative edited by Joey pat Jonathan Strickland is
our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer.
Michael Almada is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Toad.
If you want to help us, row, rate and review
us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check

(01:04:04):
out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts.