April 23, 2024 • 38 mins
A hologram of the late Whitney Houston is doing a residency in Las Vegas. Spirituality writer Brooke Obie asks what this means about celebrity, greif, and technology.
Read Brooke's piece The Zombification of Whitney Houston: https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2021/11/10725817/whitney-houston-hologram-tour
Read Deepfakes, dead relatives and digital resurrection: https://theface.com/society/deepfakes-dead-relatives-deep-nostalgia-ai-digital-resurrection-kim-kardashian-rob-kardashian-grief-privacy
Al Sharpton Boycott flyer: https://preview.redd.it/a8fqafdn1yw31.jpg?auto=webp&s=372160136dda8598d3d621dbee936e5b3d31602c
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Is that healing or is that causing more damage? I
feel like all the Black Mirror episodes tell us this
is actually going to cause more damage because this isn't
the real person. Like you want the real person here,
the real person is not here.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
There are No Girls on the Internet.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
As a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget
Todd and this is there are No Girls on the Internet.
Musical icon Whitney Houston died in twenty eleven, but that
hasn't stopped her from performing. She's back from the dead
and ready to entertain kind of an evening with Whitney.
(00:43):
The Whitney Houston Hologram Tour first debuted in Europe in
twenty twenty and is currently doing a residency in Las Vegas,
leading up to a possible United States tour next year.
Whitney's family and a state are involved with the show's production.
Pat Houston, Whitney's sister and the manager of her estate,
raved about the Hologram show, saying, we're excited to bring
this cutting edge musical experience to the fans who have
(01:05):
supported the pop culture phenomenon that was Whitney Houston because
they deserve nothing less, and while that may be true,
the increasing use of holograms to recreate people who are
no longer living is something that we should at least
be asking questions about, rather than just accept as another
new normal of our increasingly tech enabled world. In a
piece called the Zombification of Whitney Houston Spirituality, writer Brooke
(01:28):
Obe asks what right do any of us have to
demand that our deceased heroes, loved ones, or anyone else
act as a zombie for our entertainment. I had heard
about this hologram tour that Whitney Houston's estate we're putting
on in Europe, and it was finally coming to the
United States. I've been thinking about this for a really
(01:50):
long time and really haunted by this for a really
long time, but it was kind of out of sight,
out of mind.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
But now it is.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Happening. There's a residency for six months in Vegas of
this Whitney Houston hologram and it was so disturbing to me.
And it was also happening at the same time as Halloween,
Like they released or they premiered this hologram residency in
Las Vegas the week of Halloween, and I was like Wow, yep,
that is perfect. You know, if you want to exhum
(02:22):
some ghosts, if you want to zombiefie an icon, why
not start the week of Halloween. So yeah, So that
was really what triggered me finally sitting down and getting
all of my thoughts out of my head and onto
the page. Well, I mean, the Halloween date I think
is so kind of perfect because it is a really spooky,
(02:43):
haunting kind of thing, especially given that you know, I
feel like for so many of us black women, we
have this special connection to Whitney Houston. I know that
she occupies a very special place in my heart. Do
you feel the same way? Absolutely? I Mean, she is everything.
She's the voice. You know. Her life was so beautiful
and so tragic and so unnecessarily ended, and so it's
(03:09):
it was one of the most devastating celebrity losses that
I've experienced in my life. And you know, I I
was just so sad to see the people that were
around her and the lack of care and the lack
of regard for someone who needed help and assistance and
(03:30):
and wasn't able to get it and wasn't able to
live authentically as herself either, and still have the career
that she wanted to have, and so to see what's
happening now, this is basically the same thing that's happening
in her life is now happening in her death. She
her image is being constructed for her, you know, without
(03:51):
her consent, and she's being put to work today. The
term zombies conjures up brains, craving blood vests like Donna
the Dead, but those pop culture interpretations obscure the actual
grim origins of zombies and their connection to slavery. I
read this really amazing in depth article in the Atlantic
(04:12):
by Mike Brani and he it was about the tragic
forgotten history of zombies, and so it is. It's talking
about the ways that Haitian enslaved people. Their deepest fear
was that, you know, if they died by suicide, because
the plantations were so brutal, the French were so brutal
(04:33):
in their in their slavery of Haitians, that they would
be trapped in their bodies and that they would be
trapped on these plantations forever. And then once Haitian voodoo evolved,
that zombie mythology evolved as well. And basically there was
a sorcerer that would take these dead bodies and resurrect
(04:56):
them for evil purposes, you know, and use them for
free labor. And that's what I saw, That's what I
saw in my mind when I heard about this hologram
and this idea of taking Whitney, who was not able
to rest and not able to control her own image
in her lifetime, now in death, being used for free
(05:20):
labor once again, and racking in money for the estate
for the next six months in this hologram residency. The
thing about this that strikes me as particularly sad is
that I saw the waste that Whitney was stripped of
her humanity and identity in life. Aspects of who Whitney
was as a person were obscured to make her more
(05:41):
marketable to mainstream white audiences. Music labels were segregated by race,
and in the beginning, her sound was intentionally manufactured to
have white crossover appeal. Clive Davis, the head of Arista Records,
signed Whitney when she was just a teenager after an
A and R rep saw her singing with her mother's
nightclub act. Davis became a huge force in shaping Whitney's
(06:02):
image and career, he vetoed her releasing anything to black
sounding for her first two albums. His choice came with
a real cost for Whitney. At the height of her
success in the eighties, Whitney was booed by black audiences
at the Soul Train Awards when the host introduced her
as a nominee for Best R and B Artist. Reverend
Al Sharpton even organized a boycott of her music, calling
(06:25):
her Whitey Houston on flyers that you can check out
on the link in our show description. Being stripped of
this aspect of her identity was hard for Whitney. Sometimes
it gets you down. You're not black enough for them,
You're not R and B enough, You're very pop. The
white audience has taken you away from them, She explained
that an interview, and it didn't stop there now. In
the eighties, the music industry was deeply homophobic, and to
(06:48):
find mainstream success an artist would sometimes have to conceal
parts of themselves. So it isn't surprising that Whitney herself
did not talk openly about her sexuality, and we'll never
get to hear about it in her own words, But
her close friend and confidant, Robin Crawford, an openly gay
black woman who had been decades by Whitney's side as
her assistant and creative director, opened up about her romantic
(07:08):
relationship with Whitney. They met at summer campus kids and
quickly became inseparable, but soon after Whitney signed with Clive
Davis at Arista, she ended their intimate relationship because quote,
it would make our journey even more difficult, Crawford remembers
in her memoir A Song for You, My life with
Whitney Houston. In the two thousands. The years leading up
to her tragic death, Whitney dealt with addiction and family issues,
(07:32):
like the two thousand and three arrest of her husband,
Bobby Brown for allegedly hitting her in the face, and
the same media who'd once been happy to portray her
as Black America's sweetheart gleefully made her the butt of
jokes for failing to live up to the narrow role
they'd written her into. Whitney wasn't really able to be
her full self when she was alive, and now as
a hologram, rendered back to life without any of the
(07:54):
baggage that comes with being a complex living person, Whitney
is now an always on, always came already version of
herself who can perform on command and generate income for
others forever.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
And in a way, the hologram.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Suggests that that's what music executives really wanted from her
all along.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I was really struck by in your piece.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
It's sort of that element of you know that these
Haitian enslaved people, how they that was like their deepest fear,
you know, being exhumed, being reanimated, and being trapped in
this cycle of having to work to make money from
their labor forever. And how deeply kind of sad that is,
not being able to rest given the kind of life
(08:35):
that Whitney Houston did live. And I think there's something
so incredibly sad but also relatable about the life that
Whitney Houston lived. You know, in order for her to
be to be sort of like marketable as an artist,
she was stripped from so much of what made her
her write, her blackness, her queerness, so much of like
the things that made Whitney who she was. And I
(08:57):
feel that, you know, she played that game, and then
when she stepped away to be a more authentic version
of herself, how quickly America turned on her.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
How quickly America turned her into a joke.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
And so I do think there's some sort of cautionary
tale about this tightrope that we all have to walk
as black women, and that's why so many of us
identify with her, but as this hologram. It's like in
her death, they have been able to strip her from
all of these things that make her her so that
they have this marketable version that they can just make
money off of. You know, they don't have to include
(09:32):
her blackness, her queerness, her addiction issues, her family issues.
She can just be a hologram, money maker, money maker
for them in death forever, right, And it's probably a
lot more profitable for them with her, you know, not
being able to be alive and to have the issues
that she was dealing with. You know, she you don't
(09:55):
have to worry about whether or not she's going to
go out on stage because they can put her out
whenever they want. Like it's it's really like I was
saying in my piece, it's it's that the worst Black
Mirror episode. That's a very very brilliant show. But there
is an episode with Miley Cyrus that's basically the same thing.
They have this pop star that they're putting forcing into
(10:15):
a coma and then using her you know, music and
using all all sorts of other technologies to project her
onto a stage so that she will behave the way
that they want her to behave. It's not a very
good episode, but you know, the concept, you know, is
definitely what's happening here. And you know, we've heard so
(10:37):
much about how dangerous and unsafe it is for women
and black women in particular in the music industry, and
so I have no doubt that there are plenty of
executives who would be all about, you know, how can
we just make money off of this person and not
have who they actually are get in the way of
our money. Some musicians, like Anderson Pak don't want to
(11:00):
it up for executives or estate executors to sort out
in the event of his death. Last year, the musician
got a tattoo on his forearm reading when I'm gone,
please don't release any posthumous albums or song with my
name attached. Those were just demos and never intended to
be heard by the public. He debuted this tattoo in
August of twenty twenty, just a few months after the
(11:20):
Late Princes, previously unreleased album Welcome to America was posthumously released.
While the album earned critical praise, I really can't say
if the artist who died without a will and was
so notoriously protective of ownership over his music and likeness
that he changed his name to an unpronounceable symbol from
nineteen ninety three to two thousand would have wanted this
album to see.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
The light of day.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
You talk about all these different black artists who have
taken great steps to avoid their likeness being used in
these ways after death, you know, including Anderson Pox's tattoo.
That's like, you know, if I die, please do not
use my likeness or release any songs that were not
meant to be released to the public. Do you think
that there is this, like the societ little expectation that
black artists specifically are just sort of there to be
(12:04):
mined for their creativity for entertainment and profit even in death,
and that like, specifically that we as black folks are
just expected to be these never ending wells of profit
generating creativity just forever, and like technology would certainly like
facilitate that absolutely. Okay, So there's this great music journalist
(12:29):
named Simon Reynolds who actually coined the term ghost slavery
when talking about this topic. And that's you know what
slavery is, right, It was created for in America. It
was created to enslave mostly African people, but also indigenous people,
you know, in order to work for free and to
build their wealth. And so absolutely this is just another
(12:51):
extension of that. You know, I do believe that, you know,
black musicians and entertainers have been the people who've been
able to kind of bring through a bit of these
white supremacist layers that exist in this country that this
country was founded on. But they only want you to
be able to do that to a certain extent, and
(13:12):
especially if you start to become political, or if you
start to become a problem in any way that could jeopardize,
for one, white supremacy or you know, any of the
structures that are in place, you get a little too mouthy,
a little too uppity as a black person, of course,
they want to put you back in the in their place.
(13:33):
So I do feel like if you know, they as
long as the music is bringing profit, there won't be
a problem. But if there is a way to control
black artists as much as possible. That's what's going to happen.
You know, We've seen it in these three sixty deals.
We've seen it in so many different ways in the
(13:55):
music industry, and that is what I think. That's kind
of why I reac honest over, like, why would I
stay here this? You know, you can't even make money
in the same way you have to be on the road.
You have to do all of these different things as
artists in order to maintain your integrity and to make money.
It's just a lot more difficult today to be able
(14:15):
to do that. So yeah, I mean, I think people
are starting to understand that and starting to come up
with other ways to protect themselves. I don't think a
tattoo is gonna do it. I hope Anderson Pac has
another plan, like a will.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Print.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Superfans myself very much included Pans a Super Bowl twenty
eighteen halftime show when it was announced that Justin Timberlake
was going to perform with the Prince hologram, because Print
specifically said that he did not want to be brought
back to life as a hologram when he was asked
about it in a nineteen ninety eight interview with Guitar World,
Prince said, certainly not. That is the most demonic thing imaginable.
(15:12):
Everything is as it is and as it should be.
If I was meant to jam with Duke Ellington, we
would have lived in the same age. The whole virtual
reality thing, it is really demonic, and I am not
a demon. Also, what they did with that Beatles song,
manipulating John Lennon's voice to have him singing from across
the grave. That'll never happen to me. To prevent that
kind of thing from happening is another reason why I
want artistic control. So Prince absolutely did not want to
(15:35):
be a hologram. And what's even worse is that Prince
didn't even really seem to like justin Timberlake. The two
had a whole history of making shady digs at each
other while Prince was still alive. So bringing Prince back
as a hologram against his wishes to jam with the
musician he didn't even really like, just seem like adding
insult to injury. Now, in the end, the Super Bowl
halftime show didn't technically use a hologram. It was more
(15:57):
of a projection of Prince performing on a screen. Paired
up alongside Justin's performance, I think that was the problem
with Prince. Prince also spoke out quite a bit about
you know, how he thought holograms were demonic, that he
would never want that for his life and said that
this is never gonna happen to me. But you know,
(16:19):
we did see that performance with Justin Timberlake at the
super Bowl. What is supposed to be a tribute? And
I think it really was supposed to be a hologram.
And I think if not for the outcry of the public,
because the public did know that Prince didn't want that,
that they kind of maybe changed it to something else.
You know, we still saw a projection of Prince, but
(16:41):
it wasn't quite a hologram. But you know, when the
estate has control over your likeness, they can do whatever
they want, you know, unless you're explicitly in your will
saying this is what this isn't what you want. And
Prince died in Testate, so you know they have complete
control his estate to do whatever they want to do
(17:02):
with his image.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
And so that's why you.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
See these commercials with his music in that you never
saw before. You you see people being able to go
to Paisley Park, which he would never want, you know,
So there's just so many things that can happen to
you once you're dead. And you know, we've been looking
at it from a perspective of you know, celebrities, but
I think this is definitely something that's going to start
(17:24):
impacting our regular day to day lives in the near
future as well.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Yeah, let's talk about that.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
So in your piece you bring up you argue that
the announcement that Facebook slash meta if you want to
say that, like their whole argument or their whole announcement
about the metaverse, do you think that the vibe is
that they want that our sort of tech overlords want
to be able to reproduce and reanimate anyone, famous or
(17:52):
non famous, anyone anywhere, and that that will be a common,
a common you know, technological advancement available to every in
our tech future.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Do you think that that's like what they're after.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
I mean, I think that is just a thing that
happens when the technology is available. So, you know, especially
when people like Mark Zuckerberg and the rest of our
tech overlords are concerned about profit or like we've seen,
you know, several former Facebook employees coming forward and sharing
(18:27):
damning information showing that Facebook is a company, slash Meta
is a company that is for profits over people every
single time. This is just something that could happen as
a result of that. You know, you provide the technology,
it's going to happen. It's just like you create a
platform where people can express their opinions. There's gonna be harassment.
(18:50):
You know, there's gonna be racism, there's gonna be terrorism,
there's gonna be all these other things, and so you know,
if you're not actively preventing that from happening, then of
course it's going to happen. You're giving people the space
to do what people do. In the wake of the
twenty twenty racial justice protests all around the globe, after
the murder of George Floyd, an unarmed black man killed
(19:10):
by police, Change dot Org and the George Floyd Foundation
created a three D hologram of the late George Floyd
to be projected onto Confederate monuments in the South. George
Floyd's brother, Rodney Floyd, said, since the death of my
brother George, his face has been seen all over the world.
The hologram will allow my brother's face to be seen
as a symbol for change in places where changes needed
(19:30):
the most. I had the chance to see the projection
in Richmond, and it really was powerful. So holograms can
be a way for a family to heal and grieve
and turn their loss into something larger. But when someone's
likeness becomes a symbol in this way, it's not always
empowering and respectful, and also opens up the possibility that
their likeness could be used in offensive ways. For instance,
(19:51):
Floydy's is a collection of jokey NFTs that pixelated images
of George Floyd with red eyes have co opted his image,
seemingly to intentionally create outrage. We've seen this recently with
George Floyd. You know, he was celebritized in his death
and just his image has been I think one of
(20:12):
the most exploited in in recent history. And for him
for his image to go on a hologram tour of
the South to all of these former Confederate statue locations
you know, by and that was, you know, something that
was supported by his family. His family was behind that,
(20:32):
along with change dot Org. And so I just think
when people are grieving, whether it's an icon that you
loved or you know, a dear loved one, a friend
or family member that you love, like people find ways
to grieve, and you know, virtual reality, augmented reality, these
(20:56):
are becoming more and more available in a four for
everyday people. I know, I have an Oculus that was
given to me by HBO p R. During Lovecraft Country's run,
they had some activations in in the Oculus world VR
world that they wanted press to see and they did
(21:19):
a concert, a hologram concert. The point is that they
want this to be a regular situation. They want everybody
to have an Oculus, especially at Facebook just bought Oculus,
you know, shortly shortly after HBO did all those Acciva
activations in Oculus, and so now you have to sign
in with your Facebook account in order to to use that.
(21:43):
So this is definitely something that is going to be
available to a great deal of people. And you can
create avatars, and so who's to say somebody won't create
an avatar based on their loved one, you know, And
I think, you know, we really have to decide, like
whose life is the most important?
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
You know, the wishes of the person who's now dead
or the person who's still alive, and wants to grieve
and needs to grieve, and you know, however they choose
to grieve, you know, should be okay, I mean it's
it's definitely something that we should all be thinking about,
So not just musicians and not just with tattoos, like
we need to start putting this in our wills, like
(22:26):
don't use my image in any of these ways. Brook
(22:48):
is right that this is actually a thing that we
will probably be seeing more and more of. Entertainment lawyer
Brian Tuck wrote about this extensively. He writes, expect a
lot more of this in the future. Look at the
trends and Hollywood, where major studios crank out the same
or similar blockbuster projects one after the next. The major studios,
by and large are not risk takers. They want bankable
(23:09):
stars who better than a superstar from yesterday, that can
be completely controlled via voice acting and digital rendering. This
digital actor will never show up to work late, get
arrested for public drunkenness, or be involved in any scandal
of the types that we've seen in recent years that
cause an entire production to stop. It is highly likely
that these digital resurrections or recreations will absolutely become commonplace.
(23:33):
It's such an interesting peek into kind of a bleak
tech future. Like a big part of what we talk
about on this show is like imagining what our collective
futures will look like with technology, and some of it
is very beautiful, but some of it is very bleak.
And so this idea of being ready for whatever bleak
thing will be the next iteration of our tech future,
(23:55):
I think is a really really good kind of like
cautionary point. And I also think, you know, talking about
how Facebook bought Oculus, there was a time where Facebook's
motto was move fast and break things right. Like their
entire thing was just like keep going, keep going, move, move, move,
don't stop and think about the ramifications. Don't stop and
think about the precedent that you're setting, don't stop and
(24:16):
think about how this thing will be misused or can
be you know, can result in real world harms. Just
keep moving, just move fast. And I wonder if it's if,
if that attitude, if that climate, has really got us
in a place where we are making so many new
technological advances and then normalizing them work or making them commonplace,
(24:38):
but not stopping to think about what they will what
kind of future they will actually create. Like in your
piece you use this great Prince quote. If I was
meant to jam with Duke Ellington, we would have lived
at the same time. And I wonder is there an
element here of focusing so much of what we you know,
could do or can do that nobody is pumping the
brakes and thinking.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
What should we be doing? Is this right?
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Is this going to make for a better, brighter future
or a more harmful, more bleak future? Exactly exactly? And
you know, I think it's the same with concerts. You know,
we should have gone out to see Whitney Houston in concert.
If we did it, Wow, we really messed up. You know.
That should make us be even more vigilant about going
(25:21):
to see Beyonce, going to see Stevie Wonder, going to
see all these other people that we love who are
icons while we.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Have the chance.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
That's that's what life does. Life teaches us, you know, lessons,
And the point is not to create a world where
we didn't you know, miss the boat. It's to learn
from the mistakes and to try better, you know, with
the information that you have now. So I mean, I
definitely think it is. It's teaching us a dangerous lesson
(25:52):
that you know, technology, we can use technology to you know,
erase history, and that's not the point. The point should
not be to erase history. It should be to learn
from history and grow from history and do better. And
I think, you know, when we see, you know, someone
like Kanye West, who created this hologram of Kim Kardashian's
(26:16):
father who's been passed away for for decades now, and
to have him show up at Kim's fortieth birthday party
and tell her all these things that you know, you
may want a father to tell you. But it's just
like he isn't actually saying these words, you know, this
(26:38):
isn't he has no you know, concepts. Perhaps I mean,
we don't really know, but I mean like this hologram
definitely has no concept of what's going on in the
present world, you know, has no idea about you know,
her children or any of that. Like it was just
so odd and you know, personally, I would have divorced
him off of this alone. But you know that's just
(26:59):
I definitely see us creating holograms of our dead loved
ones to be at our weddings and to be at
the births of our children. And all of these things,
you know, And I'm just I just wonder if that
is actually I'm not a psychologist in any way, but
I do wonder what the psychological impact of those things
(27:23):
will be. Is that healing or is that causing more damage?
I feel like all the Black Mirror episodes tell us
this is actually going to cause more damage because this
isn't the real person. Like you want the real person here,
the real person is not here. So this fake stand
in is not doing it, and they're not gonna do it.
And the point is to learn how to move through grief,
how to expand through grief, how to increase the amount
(27:49):
of love that you put out into the world as
a result of the grief, you know. So I am concerned.
I am really concerned. And after a company called Kalita
created a hologram of Kim Kardashian's late father, they said
they were flooded with request to do the same for regular,
though presumably wealthy people asking for hologram recreations of their
(28:11):
loved ones. And companies like Deep Nostalgia, which uses AI
to create digital renderings of loved ones that smile and move,
are already incredibly popular with people who want to feel
more connected to their lost loved ones. So could this
be a useful way to process grief in the past.
In a piece for The Fall called Deep Fakes, Dead
Relatives and Digital Resurrection, doctor Elaine Cassett, psychologist and the
(28:34):
author of All the Ghosts in the Machines, says that
right now tech is ushered in new territory of collapsing
the dead and the living together. Tech companies are the
keepers of this information with a one size fits all
memorialization mechanism. They've got ideas about what's good for you,
and grief and bereavement are baked into the design. She says,
(28:54):
I've been in therapy for a very long time, and
one of my therapists kind of repeated mantras to me
is there are no.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Shortcuts to grieving. There's no shortcuts to processing.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
And so, you know, if there was a tech a
technology enabled future that allowed me to experience things that
I'm like I never got to experience, or you know, basically.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
I there's no shortcut to processing.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
And so if I was able to have a hologram
of you know, the perfect solution, like a perfect recreation
of what I wish, I always had. I am then
not doing the work of processing the fact that I
never got that in reality, right, like, and there is
no shortcut to process, and you just have to move
through it and make peace with it. And I guess
(29:39):
I wonder if we're enabling the if technology is enabling
us to think of things as shortcuts, like if.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
You didn't if you didn't appreciate Whitney Houston.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
When she was here, and or worse, you got on
the pop culture bandwagon of mocking her and and like
mocking her humanity, maybe you shouldn't get to have a
future enabled by technology where you can go see her
anytime you want, for as long as you live. Maybe
you shouldn't be processing why it is that you treated
(30:10):
her that way when she was living.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
And I wonder if this technology is building in these shortcuts.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
For not having to do that deep work of processing
what it is we do while we're here to people
who are actual humans. Absolutely absolutely, And you know it's
interesting because I also I write fiction, you know, and
a part of my process is reimagination. You know. I
have a whole novel that like reimagines the ending of
(30:39):
slavery in a way that is empowering for black people
in a way that sets us off on a different
future as a way of processing the ways in which
we are existing in this present, terrible future as a
result of slavery that has not been addressed or repaired
(31:01):
or you know, and it's now trying to be you know,
by these right wing extremists, you know, being erased from
our history and from you know, being taught in schools.
So I'm just you know, I understand the ideology behind,
(31:22):
you know, how reimaginations can help process and help heal
and move through grief. I'm just wondering what the limitations are,
you know, I'm wondering, you know, what is I think
our tech overlord should be thinking what is the worst
that could happen and putting up safeguards right now, and
(31:45):
they're not going to do that. That's such a good point,
And I feel like we've already seen how technology is
being misused if you don't put in safeguards for the
reality of how a lot of people will probably use it. Like,
you know, we have deep fake technology. I've seen very
interesting useful interpretations of deep Deep fakes are artists who
(32:09):
like make deep fakes of Mark Zuckerberg taking accountability for
the harmony it's caused, for instance, But we already know
that how deep fake technology is being used is to
harass and abuse, marginalize people, women, people, women of color.
And so this idea that we can just quickly put
out new technology that is going to completely change and
alter how our society understands how it works, and not
(32:33):
put in those safeguards or even really stop to think
about the president they said, I think is really a problem. Yes,
absolutely so, I have to ask, you know, in reading
your piece, it's obvious that this piece is sort of
like a love letter to Whitney Houston and her legacy.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
What is her?
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Do you have a favorite Whitney Houston song or moment
that that you want to share with us?
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Hmm, that might be a hard question. There so many
to pick from there really are.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
I mean, I feel like I want to dance with somebody,
and I know she was really hurt my heart to
hear how she was criticized for this song by you know,
like Al Sharpton and you know, other prominent black people
back when this was released. But I remember my dad
(33:25):
had a VHS of just like Whitney Houston videos and
stuff like that. And I remember as a kid watching
that video and she was so happy and you know,
I in the hair, you know, like it was just
so beautiful, and I just thought she was the most
beautiful woman. And I was like, yes, how nice would
(33:46):
that be to dance with somebody who loves you?
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Like how ideal?
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Like I just I remember so vividly as a kid
being just like so enthralled by this video. And my
dad also had this ther original record you know where
she's got the I think her hair is pulled back,
but it looked like she had just like a low,
like shaved head, and I just like, yeah, all you
(34:12):
see is her stunning face, and I'm like, wow, this
is the most beautiful woman. I just I remember being
so touched by her music so early on in my life.
I mean, The Bodyguard was my favorite movie. I wanted
to be an actress because of The Bodyguard. Like, I mean,
there's just so much waiting to exhale. Is like, hands down,
the best soundtrack that has ever existed to a movie.
(34:35):
You know, She's just she was so gifted and she
was so talented. And then when I found out later
on that she has literally produced like all the teen
girl movies, like the Princess Diaries, and I mean just
she she did so much that shaped my childhood, including Cinderella.
I mean that, you know, we definitely that was appointment television.
(35:00):
We stopped everything as a family to watch Cinderella and
to watch Brandy, who I also loved so much, be
the first black Cinderella and to have Whitney Houston be
the godmother. I mean it just there are so many
things and so many of those songs as well. Like
I just I remember always having this kind of countercultural
(35:21):
mind as a kid and just these ideas, these feminist
ideas that I didn't know what the words were or
how to describe them, but like I just felt like
Whitney Houston in her music and definitely the music in Cinderella,
Like it was so much about, you know, just feeling
empowered as a woman and not taking the positions that
(35:43):
we are put in into society laying down, you know,
to to fight to be an individual and to use
your own voice. And so then to later find out
that there were so many ways that Whitney was not
allowed to do that, it's just very devastating, being very
hard to hear an experience, and you know, it definitely
(36:07):
gave me fuel to make sure that I and the
people around me as much as possible were given the
space to be who they are and to be celebrated
and supported for who they are, so that nothing like
this would ever happen. It's a tragedy that we lost
to Whitney Houston, and it was so unnecessary we did.
(36:27):
It didn't have to be this way. We could have
made a society that was not queer phobic, that was
not lesblophobic, that was not anti black, that was not misogynistic,
that would have allowed Whitney Houston to thrive. And we
you know, we all can play a role in creating
(36:48):
that world so that it doesn't happen to another person.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
That's so beautiful and so right.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
I mean, Whitney taught me that nothing is worth living
your authentic life and living your authentic truth exactly.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
That's beautiful, Brooke.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Is there anything that I have not asked or have
not brought up that you want to make sure it
gets included? I think that was pretty much it. I
got in my dig about Mark Zuckerberg and justin why
people accomplished like every chance I can to just be like,
fuck justin Timberlake, Like I just want to say that
(37:23):
Zuckerberg can go to hell, Like that's it. I think
that's I think we're good.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
I do love that.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Like as a culture, we all kind of collectively are like,
you know what, fuck fuck justin Timberlake. Everyone I like
him forever, Like you can't come back from that, like
it's not pay reparations to Janet or like just be
quiet forever. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech,
or just want to say hi? You can read just
(37:50):
a Hello at tengodi dot com. You can also find
transcripts for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are
No Girls on the Internet was created by me for
Ja Toad. It's a production of iHeartRadio and an Unbossed creative.
Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tarry Harrison is our
producer and sound engineer. Michael Almato is our contributing producer.
I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help
us grow, rate and review us on Apple podcasts. For
(38:13):
more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Is that healing or is that causing more damage? I
feel like all the Black Mirror episodes tell us this
is actually going to cause more damage because this isn't
the real person. Like you want the real person here,
the real person is not here.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
There are No Girls on the Internet.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
As a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget
Todd and this is there are No Girls on the Internet.
Musical icon Whitney Houston died in twenty eleven, but that
hasn't stopped her from performing. She's back from the dead
and ready to entertain kind of an evening with Whitney.
(00:43):
The Whitney Houston Hologram Tour first debuted in Europe in
twenty twenty and is currently doing a residency in Las Vegas,
leading up to a possible United States tour next year.
Whitney's family and a state are involved with the show's production.
Pat Houston, Whitney's sister and the manager of her estate,
raved about the Hologram show, saying, we're excited to bring
this cutting edge musical experience to the fans who have
(01:05):
supported the pop culture phenomenon that was Whitney Houston because
they deserve nothing less, and while that may be true,
the increasing use of holograms to recreate people who are
no longer living is something that we should at least
be asking questions about, rather than just accept as another
new normal of our increasingly tech enabled world. In a
piece called the Zombification of Whitney Houston Spirituality, writer Brooke
(01:28):
Obe asks what right do any of us have to
demand that our deceased heroes, loved ones, or anyone else
act as a zombie for our entertainment. I had heard
about this hologram tour that Whitney Houston's estate we're putting
on in Europe, and it was finally coming to the
United States. I've been thinking about this for a really
(01:50):
long time and really haunted by this for a really
long time, but it was kind of out of sight,
out of mind.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
But now it is.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Happening. There's a residency for six months in Vegas of
this Whitney Houston hologram and it was so disturbing to me.
And it was also happening at the same time as Halloween,
Like they released or they premiered this hologram residency in
Las Vegas the week of Halloween, and I was like Wow, yep,
that is perfect. You know, if you want to exhum
(02:22):
some ghosts, if you want to zombiefie an icon, why
not start the week of Halloween. So yeah, So that
was really what triggered me finally sitting down and getting
all of my thoughts out of my head and onto
the page. Well, I mean, the Halloween date I think
is so kind of perfect because it is a really spooky,
(02:43):
haunting kind of thing, especially given that you know, I
feel like for so many of us black women, we
have this special connection to Whitney Houston. I know that
she occupies a very special place in my heart. Do
you feel the same way? Absolutely? I Mean, she is everything.
She's the voice. You know. Her life was so beautiful
and so tragic and so unnecessarily ended, and so it's
(03:09):
it was one of the most devastating celebrity losses that
I've experienced in my life. And you know, I I
was just so sad to see the people that were
around her and the lack of care and the lack
of regard for someone who needed help and assistance and
(03:30):
and wasn't able to get it and wasn't able to
live authentically as herself either, and still have the career
that she wanted to have, and so to see what's
happening now, this is basically the same thing that's happening
in her life is now happening in her death. She
her image is being constructed for her, you know, without
(03:51):
her consent, and she's being put to work today. The
term zombies conjures up brains, craving blood vests like Donna
the Dead, but those pop culture interpretations obscure the actual
grim origins of zombies and their connection to slavery. I
read this really amazing in depth article in the Atlantic
(04:12):
by Mike Brani and he it was about the tragic
forgotten history of zombies, and so it is. It's talking
about the ways that Haitian enslaved people. Their deepest fear
was that, you know, if they died by suicide, because
the plantations were so brutal, the French were so brutal
(04:33):
in their in their slavery of Haitians, that they would
be trapped in their bodies and that they would be
trapped on these plantations forever. And then once Haitian voodoo evolved,
that zombie mythology evolved as well. And basically there was
a sorcerer that would take these dead bodies and resurrect
(04:56):
them for evil purposes, you know, and use them for
free labor. And that's what I saw, That's what I
saw in my mind when I heard about this hologram
and this idea of taking Whitney, who was not able
to rest and not able to control her own image
in her lifetime, now in death, being used for free
(05:20):
labor once again, and racking in money for the estate
for the next six months in this hologram residency. The
thing about this that strikes me as particularly sad is
that I saw the waste that Whitney was stripped of
her humanity and identity in life. Aspects of who Whitney
was as a person were obscured to make her more
(05:41):
marketable to mainstream white audiences. Music labels were segregated by race,
and in the beginning, her sound was intentionally manufactured to
have white crossover appeal. Clive Davis, the head of Arista Records,
signed Whitney when she was just a teenager after an
A and R rep saw her singing with her mother's
nightclub act. Davis became a huge force in shaping Whitney's
(06:02):
image and career, he vetoed her releasing anything to black
sounding for her first two albums. His choice came with
a real cost for Whitney. At the height of her
success in the eighties, Whitney was booed by black audiences
at the Soul Train Awards when the host introduced her
as a nominee for Best R and B Artist. Reverend
Al Sharpton even organized a boycott of her music, calling
(06:25):
her Whitey Houston on flyers that you can check out
on the link in our show description. Being stripped of
this aspect of her identity was hard for Whitney. Sometimes
it gets you down. You're not black enough for them,
You're not R and B enough, You're very pop. The
white audience has taken you away from them, She explained
that an interview, and it didn't stop there now. In
the eighties, the music industry was deeply homophobic, and to
(06:48):
find mainstream success an artist would sometimes have to conceal
parts of themselves. So it isn't surprising that Whitney herself
did not talk openly about her sexuality, and we'll never
get to hear about it in her own words, But
her close friend and confidant, Robin Crawford, an openly gay
black woman who had been decades by Whitney's side as
her assistant and creative director, opened up about her romantic
(07:08):
relationship with Whitney. They met at summer campus kids and
quickly became inseparable, but soon after Whitney signed with Clive
Davis at Arista, she ended their intimate relationship because quote,
it would make our journey even more difficult, Crawford remembers
in her memoir A Song for You, My life with
Whitney Houston. In the two thousands. The years leading up
to her tragic death, Whitney dealt with addiction and family issues,
(07:32):
like the two thousand and three arrest of her husband,
Bobby Brown for allegedly hitting her in the face, and
the same media who'd once been happy to portray her
as Black America's sweetheart gleefully made her the butt of
jokes for failing to live up to the narrow role
they'd written her into. Whitney wasn't really able to be
her full self when she was alive, and now as
a hologram, rendered back to life without any of the
(07:54):
baggage that comes with being a complex living person, Whitney
is now an always on, always came already version of
herself who can perform on command and generate income for
others forever.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
And in a way, the hologram.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Suggests that that's what music executives really wanted from her
all along.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I was really struck by in your piece.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
It's sort of that element of you know that these
Haitian enslaved people, how they that was like their deepest fear,
you know, being exhumed, being reanimated, and being trapped in
this cycle of having to work to make money from
their labor forever. And how deeply kind of sad that is,
not being able to rest given the kind of life
(08:35):
that Whitney Houston did live. And I think there's something
so incredibly sad but also relatable about the life that
Whitney Houston lived. You know, in order for her to
be to be sort of like marketable as an artist,
she was stripped from so much of what made her
her write, her blackness, her queerness, so much of like
the things that made Whitney who she was. And I
(08:57):
feel that, you know, she played that game, and then
when she stepped away to be a more authentic version
of herself, how quickly America turned on her.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
How quickly America turned her into a joke.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
And so I do think there's some sort of cautionary
tale about this tightrope that we all have to walk
as black women, and that's why so many of us
identify with her, but as this hologram. It's like in
her death, they have been able to strip her from
all of these things that make her her so that
they have this marketable version that they can just make
money off of. You know, they don't have to include
(09:32):
her blackness, her queerness, her addiction issues, her family issues.
She can just be a hologram, money maker, money maker
for them in death forever, right, And it's probably a
lot more profitable for them with her, you know, not
being able to be alive and to have the issues
that she was dealing with. You know, she you don't
(09:55):
have to worry about whether or not she's going to
go out on stage because they can put her out
whenever they want. Like it's it's really like I was
saying in my piece, it's it's that the worst Black
Mirror episode. That's a very very brilliant show. But there
is an episode with Miley Cyrus that's basically the same thing.
They have this pop star that they're putting forcing into
(10:15):
a coma and then using her you know, music and
using all all sorts of other technologies to project her
onto a stage so that she will behave the way
that they want her to behave. It's not a very
good episode, but you know, the concept, you know, is
definitely what's happening here. And you know, we've heard so
(10:37):
much about how dangerous and unsafe it is for women
and black women in particular in the music industry, and
so I have no doubt that there are plenty of
executives who would be all about, you know, how can
we just make money off of this person and not
have who they actually are get in the way of
our money. Some musicians, like Anderson Pak don't want to
(11:00):
it up for executives or estate executors to sort out
in the event of his death. Last year, the musician
got a tattoo on his forearm reading when I'm gone,
please don't release any posthumous albums or song with my
name attached. Those were just demos and never intended to
be heard by the public. He debuted this tattoo in
August of twenty twenty, just a few months after the
(11:20):
Late Princes, previously unreleased album Welcome to America was posthumously released.
While the album earned critical praise, I really can't say
if the artist who died without a will and was
so notoriously protective of ownership over his music and likeness
that he changed his name to an unpronounceable symbol from
nineteen ninety three to two thousand would have wanted this
album to see.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
The light of day.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
You talk about all these different black artists who have
taken great steps to avoid their likeness being used in
these ways after death, you know, including Anderson Pox's tattoo.
That's like, you know, if I die, please do not
use my likeness or release any songs that were not
meant to be released to the public. Do you think
that there is this, like the societ little expectation that
black artists specifically are just sort of there to be
(12:04):
mined for their creativity for entertainment and profit even in death,
and that like, specifically that we as black folks are
just expected to be these never ending wells of profit
generating creativity just forever, and like technology would certainly like
facilitate that absolutely. Okay, So there's this great music journalist
(12:29):
named Simon Reynolds who actually coined the term ghost slavery
when talking about this topic. And that's you know what
slavery is, right, It was created for in America. It
was created to enslave mostly African people, but also indigenous people,
you know, in order to work for free and to
build their wealth. And so absolutely this is just another
(12:51):
extension of that. You know, I do believe that, you know,
black musicians and entertainers have been the people who've been
able to kind of bring through a bit of these
white supremacist layers that exist in this country that this
country was founded on. But they only want you to
be able to do that to a certain extent, and
(13:12):
especially if you start to become political, or if you
start to become a problem in any way that could jeopardize,
for one, white supremacy or you know, any of the
structures that are in place, you get a little too mouthy,
a little too uppity as a black person, of course,
they want to put you back in the in their place.
(13:33):
So I do feel like if you know, they as
long as the music is bringing profit, there won't be
a problem. But if there is a way to control
black artists as much as possible. That's what's going to happen.
You know, We've seen it in these three sixty deals.
We've seen it in so many different ways in the
(13:55):
music industry, and that is what I think. That's kind
of why I reac honest over, like, why would I
stay here this? You know, you can't even make money
in the same way you have to be on the road.
You have to do all of these different things as
artists in order to maintain your integrity and to make money.
It's just a lot more difficult today to be able
(14:15):
to do that. So yeah, I mean, I think people
are starting to understand that and starting to come up
with other ways to protect themselves. I don't think a
tattoo is gonna do it. I hope Anderson Pac has
another plan, like a will.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Print.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Superfans myself very much included Pans a Super Bowl twenty
eighteen halftime show when it was announced that Justin Timberlake
was going to perform with the Prince hologram, because Print
specifically said that he did not want to be brought
back to life as a hologram when he was asked
about it in a nineteen ninety eight interview with Guitar World,
Prince said, certainly not. That is the most demonic thing imaginable.
(15:12):
Everything is as it is and as it should be.
If I was meant to jam with Duke Ellington, we
would have lived in the same age. The whole virtual
reality thing, it is really demonic, and I am not
a demon. Also, what they did with that Beatles song,
manipulating John Lennon's voice to have him singing from across
the grave. That'll never happen to me. To prevent that
kind of thing from happening is another reason why I
want artistic control. So Prince absolutely did not want to
(15:35):
be a hologram. And what's even worse is that Prince
didn't even really seem to like justin Timberlake. The two
had a whole history of making shady digs at each
other while Prince was still alive. So bringing Prince back
as a hologram against his wishes to jam with the
musician he didn't even really like, just seem like adding
insult to injury. Now, in the end, the Super Bowl
halftime show didn't technically use a hologram. It was more
(15:57):
of a projection of Prince performing on a screen. Paired
up alongside Justin's performance, I think that was the problem
with Prince. Prince also spoke out quite a bit about
you know, how he thought holograms were demonic, that he
would never want that for his life and said that
this is never gonna happen to me. But you know,
(16:19):
we did see that performance with Justin Timberlake at the
super Bowl. What is supposed to be a tribute? And
I think it really was supposed to be a hologram.
And I think if not for the outcry of the public,
because the public did know that Prince didn't want that,
that they kind of maybe changed it to something else.
You know, we still saw a projection of Prince, but
(16:41):
it wasn't quite a hologram. But you know, when the
estate has control over your likeness, they can do whatever
they want, you know, unless you're explicitly in your will
saying this is what this isn't what you want. And
Prince died in Testate, so you know they have complete
control his estate to do whatever they want to do
(17:02):
with his image.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
And so that's why you.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
See these commercials with his music in that you never
saw before. You you see people being able to go
to Paisley Park, which he would never want, you know,
So there's just so many things that can happen to
you once you're dead. And you know, we've been looking
at it from a perspective of you know, celebrities, but
I think this is definitely something that's going to start
(17:24):
impacting our regular day to day lives in the near
future as well.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Yeah, let's talk about that.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
So in your piece you bring up you argue that
the announcement that Facebook slash meta if you want to
say that, like their whole argument or their whole announcement
about the metaverse, do you think that the vibe is
that they want that our sort of tech overlords want
to be able to reproduce and reanimate anyone, famous or
(17:52):
non famous, anyone anywhere, and that that will be a common,
a common you know, technological advancement available to every in
our tech future.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Do you think that that's like what they're after.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
I mean, I think that is just a thing that
happens when the technology is available. So, you know, especially
when people like Mark Zuckerberg and the rest of our
tech overlords are concerned about profit or like we've seen,
you know, several former Facebook employees coming forward and sharing
(18:27):
damning information showing that Facebook is a company, slash Meta
is a company that is for profits over people every
single time. This is just something that could happen as
a result of that. You know, you provide the technology,
it's going to happen. It's just like you create a
platform where people can express their opinions. There's gonna be harassment.
(18:50):
You know, there's gonna be racism, there's gonna be terrorism,
there's gonna be all these other things, and so you know,
if you're not actively preventing that from happening, then of
course it's going to happen. You're giving people the space
to do what people do. In the wake of the
twenty twenty racial justice protests all around the globe, after
the murder of George Floyd, an unarmed black man killed
(19:10):
by police, Change dot Org and the George Floyd Foundation
created a three D hologram of the late George Floyd
to be projected onto Confederate monuments in the South. George
Floyd's brother, Rodney Floyd, said, since the death of my
brother George, his face has been seen all over the world.
The hologram will allow my brother's face to be seen
as a symbol for change in places where changes needed
(19:30):
the most. I had the chance to see the projection
in Richmond, and it really was powerful. So holograms can
be a way for a family to heal and grieve
and turn their loss into something larger. But when someone's
likeness becomes a symbol in this way, it's not always
empowering and respectful, and also opens up the possibility that
their likeness could be used in offensive ways. For instance,
(19:51):
Floydy's is a collection of jokey NFTs that pixelated images
of George Floyd with red eyes have co opted his image,
seemingly to intentionally create outrage. We've seen this recently with
George Floyd. You know, he was celebritized in his death
and just his image has been I think one of
(20:12):
the most exploited in in recent history. And for him
for his image to go on a hologram tour of
the South to all of these former Confederate statue locations
you know, by and that was, you know, something that
was supported by his family. His family was behind that,
(20:32):
along with change dot Org. And so I just think
when people are grieving, whether it's an icon that you
loved or you know, a dear loved one, a friend
or family member that you love, like people find ways
to grieve, and you know, virtual reality, augmented reality, these
(20:56):
are becoming more and more available in a four for
everyday people. I know, I have an Oculus that was
given to me by HBO p R. During Lovecraft Country's run,
they had some activations in in the Oculus world VR
world that they wanted press to see and they did
(21:19):
a concert, a hologram concert. The point is that they
want this to be a regular situation. They want everybody
to have an Oculus, especially at Facebook just bought Oculus,
you know, shortly shortly after HBO did all those Acciva
activations in Oculus, and so now you have to sign
in with your Facebook account in order to to use that.
(21:43):
So this is definitely something that is going to be
available to a great deal of people. And you can
create avatars, and so who's to say somebody won't create
an avatar based on their loved one, you know, And
I think, you know, we really have to decide, like
whose life is the most important?
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
You know, the wishes of the person who's now dead
or the person who's still alive, and wants to grieve
and needs to grieve, and you know, however they choose
to grieve, you know, should be okay, I mean it's
it's definitely something that we should all be thinking about,
So not just musicians and not just with tattoos, like
we need to start putting this in our wills, like
(22:26):
don't use my image in any of these ways. Brook
(22:48):
is right that this is actually a thing that we
will probably be seeing more and more of. Entertainment lawyer
Brian Tuck wrote about this extensively. He writes, expect a
lot more of this in the future. Look at the
trends and Hollywood, where major studios crank out the same
or similar blockbuster projects one after the next. The major studios,
by and large are not risk takers. They want bankable
(23:09):
stars who better than a superstar from yesterday, that can
be completely controlled via voice acting and digital rendering. This
digital actor will never show up to work late, get
arrested for public drunkenness, or be involved in any scandal
of the types that we've seen in recent years that
cause an entire production to stop. It is highly likely
that these digital resurrections or recreations will absolutely become commonplace.
(23:33):
It's such an interesting peek into kind of a bleak
tech future. Like a big part of what we talk
about on this show is like imagining what our collective
futures will look like with technology, and some of it
is very beautiful, but some of it is very bleak.
And so this idea of being ready for whatever bleak
thing will be the next iteration of our tech future,
(23:55):
I think is a really really good kind of like
cautionary point. And I also think, you know, talking about
how Facebook bought Oculus, there was a time where Facebook's
motto was move fast and break things right. Like their
entire thing was just like keep going, keep going, move, move, move,
don't stop and think about the ramifications. Don't stop and
think about the precedent that you're setting, don't stop and
(24:16):
think about how this thing will be misused or can
be you know, can result in real world harms. Just
keep moving, just move fast. And I wonder if it's if,
if that attitude, if that climate, has really got us
in a place where we are making so many new
technological advances and then normalizing them work or making them commonplace,
(24:38):
but not stopping to think about what they will what
kind of future they will actually create. Like in your
piece you use this great Prince quote. If I was
meant to jam with Duke Ellington, we would have lived
at the same time. And I wonder is there an
element here of focusing so much of what we you know,
could do or can do that nobody is pumping the
brakes and thinking.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
What should we be doing? Is this right?
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Is this going to make for a better, brighter future
or a more harmful, more bleak future? Exactly exactly? And
you know, I think it's the same with concerts. You know,
we should have gone out to see Whitney Houston in concert.
If we did it, Wow, we really messed up. You know.
That should make us be even more vigilant about going
(25:21):
to see Beyonce, going to see Stevie Wonder, going to
see all these other people that we love who are
icons while we.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Have the chance.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
That's that's what life does. Life teaches us, you know, lessons,
And the point is not to create a world where
we didn't you know, miss the boat. It's to learn
from the mistakes and to try better, you know, with
the information that you have now. So I mean, I
definitely think it is. It's teaching us a dangerous lesson
(25:52):
that you know, technology, we can use technology to you know,
erase history, and that's not the point. The point should
not be to erase history. It should be to learn
from history and grow from history and do better. And
I think, you know, when we see, you know, someone
like Kanye West, who created this hologram of Kim Kardashian's
(26:16):
father who's been passed away for for decades now, and
to have him show up at Kim's fortieth birthday party
and tell her all these things that you know, you
may want a father to tell you. But it's just
like he isn't actually saying these words, you know, this
(26:38):
isn't he has no you know, concepts. Perhaps I mean,
we don't really know, but I mean like this hologram
definitely has no concept of what's going on in the
present world, you know, has no idea about you know,
her children or any of that. Like it was just
so odd and you know, personally, I would have divorced
him off of this alone. But you know that's just
(26:59):
I definitely see us creating holograms of our dead loved
ones to be at our weddings and to be at
the births of our children. And all of these things,
you know, And I'm just I just wonder if that
is actually I'm not a psychologist in any way, but
I do wonder what the psychological impact of those things
(27:23):
will be. Is that healing or is that causing more damage?
I feel like all the Black Mirror episodes tell us
this is actually going to cause more damage because this
isn't the real person. Like you want the real person here,
the real person is not here. So this fake stand
in is not doing it, and they're not gonna do it.
And the point is to learn how to move through grief,
how to expand through grief, how to increase the amount
(27:49):
of love that you put out into the world as
a result of the grief, you know. So I am concerned.
I am really concerned. And after a company called Kalita
created a hologram of Kim Kardashian's late father, they said
they were flooded with request to do the same for regular,
though presumably wealthy people asking for hologram recreations of their
(28:11):
loved ones. And companies like Deep Nostalgia, which uses AI
to create digital renderings of loved ones that smile and move,
are already incredibly popular with people who want to feel
more connected to their lost loved ones. So could this
be a useful way to process grief in the past.
In a piece for The Fall called Deep Fakes, Dead
Relatives and Digital Resurrection, doctor Elaine Cassett, psychologist and the
(28:34):
author of All the Ghosts in the Machines, says that
right now tech is ushered in new territory of collapsing
the dead and the living together. Tech companies are the
keepers of this information with a one size fits all
memorialization mechanism. They've got ideas about what's good for you,
and grief and bereavement are baked into the design. She says,
(28:54):
I've been in therapy for a very long time, and
one of my therapists kind of repeated mantras to me
is there are no.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Shortcuts to grieving. There's no shortcuts to processing.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
And so, you know, if there was a tech a
technology enabled future that allowed me to experience things that
I'm like I never got to experience, or you know, basically.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
I there's no shortcut to processing.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
And so if I was able to have a hologram
of you know, the perfect solution, like a perfect recreation
of what I wish, I always had. I am then
not doing the work of processing the fact that I
never got that in reality, right, like, and there is
no shortcut to process, and you just have to move
through it and make peace with it. And I guess
(29:39):
I wonder if we're enabling the if technology is enabling
us to think of things as shortcuts, like if.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
You didn't if you didn't appreciate Whitney Houston.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
When she was here, and or worse, you got on
the pop culture bandwagon of mocking her and and like
mocking her humanity, maybe you shouldn't get to have a
future enabled by technology where you can go see her
anytime you want, for as long as you live. Maybe
you shouldn't be processing why it is that you treated
(30:10):
her that way when she was living.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
And I wonder if this technology is building in these shortcuts.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
For not having to do that deep work of processing
what it is we do while we're here to people
who are actual humans. Absolutely absolutely, And you know it's
interesting because I also I write fiction, you know, and
a part of my process is reimagination. You know. I
have a whole novel that like reimagines the ending of
(30:39):
slavery in a way that is empowering for black people
in a way that sets us off on a different
future as a way of processing the ways in which
we are existing in this present, terrible future as a
result of slavery that has not been addressed or repaired
(31:01):
or you know, and it's now trying to be you know,
by these right wing extremists, you know, being erased from
our history and from you know, being taught in schools.
So I'm just you know, I understand the ideology behind,
(31:22):
you know, how reimaginations can help process and help heal
and move through grief. I'm just wondering what the limitations are,
you know, I'm wondering, you know, what is I think
our tech overlord should be thinking what is the worst
that could happen and putting up safeguards right now, and
(31:45):
they're not going to do that. That's such a good point,
And I feel like we've already seen how technology is
being misused if you don't put in safeguards for the
reality of how a lot of people will probably use it. Like,
you know, we have deep fake technology. I've seen very
interesting useful interpretations of deep Deep fakes are artists who
(32:09):
like make deep fakes of Mark Zuckerberg taking accountability for
the harmony it's caused, for instance, But we already know
that how deep fake technology is being used is to
harass and abuse, marginalize people, women, people, women of color.
And so this idea that we can just quickly put
out new technology that is going to completely change and
alter how our society understands how it works, and not
(32:33):
put in those safeguards or even really stop to think
about the president they said, I think is really a problem. Yes,
absolutely so, I have to ask, you know, in reading
your piece, it's obvious that this piece is sort of
like a love letter to Whitney Houston and her legacy.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
What is her?
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Do you have a favorite Whitney Houston song or moment
that that you want to share with us?
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Hmm, that might be a hard question. There so many
to pick from there really are.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
I mean, I feel like I want to dance with somebody,
and I know she was really hurt my heart to
hear how she was criticized for this song by you know,
like Al Sharpton and you know, other prominent black people
back when this was released. But I remember my dad
(33:25):
had a VHS of just like Whitney Houston videos and
stuff like that. And I remember as a kid watching
that video and she was so happy and you know,
I in the hair, you know, like it was just
so beautiful, and I just thought she was the most
beautiful woman. And I was like, yes, how nice would
(33:46):
that be to dance with somebody who loves you?
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Like how ideal?
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Like I just I remember so vividly as a kid
being just like so enthralled by this video. And my
dad also had this ther original record you know where
she's got the I think her hair is pulled back,
but it looked like she had just like a low,
like shaved head, and I just like, yeah, all you
(34:12):
see is her stunning face, and I'm like, wow, this
is the most beautiful woman. I just I remember being
so touched by her music so early on in my life.
I mean, The Bodyguard was my favorite movie. I wanted
to be an actress because of The Bodyguard. Like, I mean,
there's just so much waiting to exhale. Is like, hands down,
the best soundtrack that has ever existed to a movie.
(34:35):
You know, She's just she was so gifted and she
was so talented. And then when I found out later
on that she has literally produced like all the teen
girl movies, like the Princess Diaries, and I mean just
she she did so much that shaped my childhood, including Cinderella.
I mean that, you know, we definitely that was appointment television.
(35:00):
We stopped everything as a family to watch Cinderella and
to watch Brandy, who I also loved so much, be
the first black Cinderella and to have Whitney Houston be
the godmother. I mean it just there are so many
things and so many of those songs as well. Like
I just I remember always having this kind of countercultural
(35:21):
mind as a kid and just these ideas, these feminist
ideas that I didn't know what the words were or
how to describe them, but like I just felt like
Whitney Houston in her music and definitely the music in Cinderella,
Like it was so much about, you know, just feeling
empowered as a woman and not taking the positions that
(35:43):
we are put in into society laying down, you know,
to to fight to be an individual and to use
your own voice. And so then to later find out
that there were so many ways that Whitney was not
allowed to do that, it's just very devastating, being very
hard to hear an experience, and you know, it definitely
(36:07):
gave me fuel to make sure that I and the
people around me as much as possible were given the
space to be who they are and to be celebrated
and supported for who they are, so that nothing like
this would ever happen. It's a tragedy that we lost
to Whitney Houston, and it was so unnecessary we did.
(36:27):
It didn't have to be this way. We could have
made a society that was not queer phobic, that was
not lesblophobic, that was not anti black, that was not misogynistic,
that would have allowed Whitney Houston to thrive. And we
you know, we all can play a role in creating
(36:48):
that world so that it doesn't happen to another person.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
That's so beautiful and so right.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
I mean, Whitney taught me that nothing is worth living
your authentic life and living your authentic truth exactly.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
That's beautiful, Brooke.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Is there anything that I have not asked or have
not brought up that you want to make sure it
gets included? I think that was pretty much it. I
got in my dig about Mark Zuckerberg and justin why
people accomplished like every chance I can to just be like,
fuck justin Timberlake, Like I just want to say that
(37:23):
Zuckerberg can go to hell, Like that's it. I think
that's I think we're good.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
I do love that.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Like as a culture, we all kind of collectively are like,
you know what, fuck fuck justin Timberlake. Everyone I like
him forever, Like you can't come back from that, like
it's not pay reparations to Janet or like just be
quiet forever. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech,
or just want to say hi? You can read just
(37:50):
a Hello at tengodi dot com. You can also find
transcripts for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are
No Girls on the Internet was created by me for
Ja Toad. It's a production of iHeartRadio and an Unbossed creative.
Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tarry Harrison is our
producer and sound engineer. Michael Almato is our contributing producer.
I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help
us grow, rate and review us on Apple podcasts. For
(38:13):
more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
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