Gender Roles Were Made To Be Broken (with Kate Rope)

Author, mother, journalist, these are just a few words that can describe this week’s guest. Kate Rope has been featured in TIME, The Washington Post, The New York Times, CNN, and more for her writing on parenting. Her new book Strong As A Girl, empowers parents and caretakers to raise their girls in a way that allows them to thrive. Join Madison and Anya for this insightful and important conversation that every parent needs to hear. But before any of that, the Packers break down the latest PWHL schedule, which starts…WHEN?!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, everyone, Welcome to these packs puck. I'm Madison Packer.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
And I'm Anya Packer. Madison and I are both former
pro hockey players. We met through hockey and fell in love,
and now we're married with two awesome toddlers, ages two
and four.

Speaker 1 (00:15):
These days, we're opening up about the chaos of our
daily lives, between the juggle of being athletes, raising kids.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
And all the messiness in between. So buckle the puck up,
because there is a lot to talk about.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
Hi, Maddie, Hello, how you doing good? Good? Good?

Speaker 2 (00:34):
How are you? You know since the three minutes prior
when I talked to him upstairs and now I'm good?

Speaker 1 (00:40):
Still good?

Speaker 2 (00:41):
Are you ready to get into our hockey hot take?

Speaker 1 (00:43):
Let's do it hockey hot Take.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
This week's hockey hot Take is brought to you by
the PWHL season Schedule Drop. I'm going to give you
some information on the beginning of the season, and you're
gonna give us a live reaction to what you think
is going to happen. Are you ready?

Speaker 1 (01:03):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (01:05):
The PBHL season kicks off the Friday after Thanksgiving.

Speaker 1 (01:10):
It's the friday before Thanksgiving. Really, Thanksgiving is the twenty
seventh Okay, well, the Friday before Thanksgiving, let's get into it.
Two big tilts.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
Toronto versus Minnesota at home in the newly named Grand
Casino Arena and Seattle at Vancouver in the Pacific Coliseum.

Speaker 1 (01:27):
What are your thoughts Minnesota Toronto on Friday at home
in Minnesota. I like that. I mean, I think that
Minnesota has a good following. I think that they do
a good job of drawing a good crowd. I think
they're raising a banner two right, Like. I mean, I
think I would have liked to maybe see the season
start a tiny bit earlier. I think that the week

(01:49):
before American Thanksgiving is a bit bold, and I think
that you're going to lose people like you might have
people at that game, but then people are going to
be away, traveling in, traveling out of town for the holiday.
So I think that that's something that probably was taken
into consideration. I mean, I don't think they do anything
on accident. I just think it's interesting timing. But I
think that I like the opening up with Toronto and Minnesota.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
Yeah, that's gonna be a good game. Who do you
think Minnesota's best rival is? You think it's Toronto.

Speaker 1 (02:18):
I think it's all going to shake up. I mean,
they're going to keep adding teams. You know, someone hinted
that we're going to see more teams added again at
the end of this season. I think it's still I
think that at this point everyone is a rivalry. But
I think that Vancouver and Seattle are going to be
the best teams in the league this year. They open
up against each other, Yeah, what is it the twenty second.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
They open up No, same day, same day, twenty first.
It's seven pm PST though, so you have six pm CST,
seven pm PST.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
I think that those are going to be the strongest
teams just on paper, from like a preliminary guess. But
I think that if they continue to do the expansion
draft the same way, you're going to see the same
powerhouse teams come out of it. So I don't know,
aside from just like not liking each other, et cetera.
Like Boston seems to have a rivalry with everyone, right,
but I think.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
That is that just the Boston way.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, I think that you need to have a few
more teams in the mix before you really start to
get like intense, begrudging rivalries.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
Or you think whoever just follows the kind of like
men's hockey rivalry, right, like Bruins Canadians, Right, is that
a gonna be a Fleet Victoire copy? Yeah, because the
fans don't like each other. I feel like sometimes the
fans rival rivalry before the teams, do, you know, because
it's like that drive is makeable. So you get Boston
fans up in Montreal and then that just pisses everyone off,

(03:31):
which is fun. Yeah, Okay, So who's going to score
the first goal for Seattle and who's going to score
the first goal for Vancouver. They're playing each other, so
no that those goals won't come easy. Someone's got to score.
Who's taking the first goal for Vancouver? And remember that's
a super team. You've got carbon and mcquig, Daniel Gardner,

(03:53):
Venisheva Rosenthal, Nurse, Breen, Miller, Corsova, Cava. Like you've got
some monsters on that club.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
Honestly, I think I might go with Cava.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
That's what I was gonna say.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
She she's just a player that always picked out another one,
like I'll give honorable mention to watch. It's because it's
going to go one way or the other. Carven In
Carvenan has been successful on the international level right with
Team Finland. Great hockey player. I played against her when
she was at North Dakota. She's had a phenomenal career,
but she's played her entire professional.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
Career international, Europe and the.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, and so I think that, I mean, we've seen it.
There's an adjustment period. You've seen it with Vanishova, You've
seen it with Krisova, like you've seen it with a
lot of these players. There's an adjustment. And I wonder
if Carvin in this late in her career, is going
to be able to pivot right. Like you look at
a player like Mueller who played college here. So did

(04:51):
carbon In. But it's been a while and Mueller had
a huge adjustment for almost two full seasons. She's kind
of getting her pace going. She's got chloea Rard back
with it like that combo up in Boston. But Carvenon
is going to be a fun player to watch, very
very very talented individually. I just wonder how she's going
to adjust to the physical game because she's also a

(05:12):
big player. But I think it'll be interesting. This is
going to be a fun season to watch. You've got
a lot of players coming into the league, a lot
of young talent ins using the league.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
The thing that I'm the most excited about with PTERBHL
Seattle and Vancouver, besides their branding and their mascots TBD
on those I'm excited to see what line pairings they
put because their entire team has more depth because it's
basically first and second line players from every single roster. Right.
I think we watched it in the NHL and their

(05:40):
first expansion draft with Vegas Golden Knights was a complete
gong show and then they went to run the table
for like four or five years. This is what's going
to happen in the PBHL. But if you just look
at the rosters before you look at any of their
kind of rookies draft class, whoever makes it off of
training camp Eldridge, Snodgrass, grant mentis Bilka, night carp Etziga

(06:01):
Goslings or Dacney on Seattle, I mean, what's your first
line on that team?

Speaker 1 (06:07):
I can't put one together. No, I mean that's just yeah,
I can't.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
Put on but I do. I think they're gonna do
the night carp insert person here.

Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yeah, sure, but I mean I think that Carpenter's gonna
get moved around. I don't think that Nighter is gonna
be a first line player. I think that she's gonna
play minutes and she's gonna have a role. But I
think that I've been pleasantly surprised by her approach and
her take. I think part of her willingness to go
to Seattle, I have to believe that her family is
still in Idaho, so it's closer for them, right Like, honestly,

(06:35):
I'll tip my hat tonight her. I think that a
lot of people in her shoes would not do the
move that she did. That they would stay in Boston,
soak up the money, soak up the limelight, be the player.
I think that what she did is is a good
sign of leadership. I think that it's a move that
we need to see more players making. I don't know
if it's true or not, but the rumor mill is
that she was willing to take a little bit less
money in Seattle to allow other players to take money.

(06:58):
And you know, I think that we've been at times
critical and duly so of a lot of decisions made.
I think in Hillary Knight's situation, I think that she
did the right thing, And I think that, you know,
it's what I said on NHL Network the other night.
Everyone wants to win. At the end of the day,
She's got an opportunity to have a huge year. She's
going into an Olympic year. She's most likely going to
make that team, and then who knows what it is
for her career and her legacy. But I think she

(07:20):
has an opportunity to play one of her last seasons,
if not her last, on a winning roster during an
Olympic year. I think that there's a lot of strategy
and a lot of coaching that went on there.

Speaker 2 (07:32):
I think the player that goes and gets the gold
medal and the PHL Cup in one year, that's going
to be a good feeling. And there's a lot of
players that kind of fit that bubble. Yeah, you got
a lot of them going yeah exactly. So I think
that all the matchups are going to be really good.
That was my point to the rivalry. I think that
every night is going.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
To be a battle.

Speaker 2 (07:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:49):
I think that Seattle and Vancouver have the most in
their pockets to start, but goaltending is going to continue
to be a huge factor for these teams.

Speaker 2 (07:57):
I mean I could also see Sophie Jakes put win
it off the blue line. I mean, I gave you
all forward, so I didn't really give you a d
choice there, But no Sophie, Sophie Jakes is such a
powerhouse d I could see her taking a bomb tip
in my you know, Hannah Miller, who has a great
NetFront presence. There's a lot of options there. Nonetheless, season
is starting. We get to start getting into some of
this juice, some of this hot hockey tea. We're finally

(08:17):
back to a hockey hot take the hockey relevant. That
felt good and I could not be more excited to
start watching some info about camp start to unfold. We're
gonna start to see hockey content finally, so I'm happy.
I'm ready to go. I love the choices. MICHAELA. Cob
is gonna have a freaking year. She's a monster. I'm
so excited to watch every single one of these players

(08:39):
get a real chance. But the entire league is going
to be like nothing we've ever seen before. I'm calling
it right now. Vancouver finds some way to break the
total attendance record at that home opener. They are insane.
I think they're gonna take the cup, So let's go.
S he's an opener, we should put a little pin
in it. We're gonna get to our check in. But

(09:00):
I think you can tell I'm a little excited for
some hockey content.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
Anchel season is starting up, PWHL seasons right around the corner.
Got to be a lot of TVs on in this house, lady,
every room. With that said, where are we at? How
we feel?

Speaker 2 (09:18):
And give me a number one to one hundred. We
just had a weekend without the kids. We were out,
we had a wedding. We had some togetherness time, which
I love. I felt like I needed that. I missed
you a ton. We got to like veg and watch
our show with no little hands pulling us to the
refrigerator to get more milk. That was amazing, Like, right,

(09:42):
that's always what it is. We like get to chill.
And finally, so I was like, can I have some
milk and a cheese stick? Like sure, Dairy Farmers, you
can have whatever you'd like. I think I'm at like
a seventy five. I feel really good. We flew naturally
a little tired. All the things. I'd love to hit
the gym today. I know that about myself. So I'm
at a seventy five. But I had a great weekend,

(10:03):
and I love you and it was really fun. How
about you.

Speaker 1 (10:05):
I echo all sentiments. It's always hard for me to
come back into our space because no matter who's in
our space and how hard and good a job they
do of keeping our space, just so nobody is you.
I like to have things just so.

Speaker 2 (10:23):
So so so so. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
But also we just have a lot going on, Like
I'm just I'm just a little overwhelmed. We're gone the
next several weekends, Like we're all gone as a family
this weekend. Then you're gone for work, then we're gone,
then I'm gone. Like just a lot of moving around.
So I appreciated our time together, though I'd say I'm
probably like a seventy five twins.

Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, I agree. I mean, like there's sometimes you need
a vacation from the vacation.

Speaker 1 (10:53):
Yeah, that's how I felt when I came back from Mexico. Honestly, yeah,
was I on vacation because I felt very stressed.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
I just think we're our new wiring is very stressed.
But I think it's perfect that we start to kind
of like jump into this talk about it, like really
feel the meat of it, because our next guest kind
of gets into that, and I really appreciated that conversation
as well. So the more we can be honest with
ourselves and take these check in moments to be like
things are good, still stressed, still more, really feeling like

(11:23):
myself but this part was good and can appreciate that good.
I think that that that does wonders for us, doesn't
it well?

Speaker 1 (11:30):
And it's kind of odd because I think everyone's different
and people are like, oh, like I love a break
like you love a break when you get a break
from the kids. However, I actually prefer when we travel
like that, like I would rather have all of us
leave and all of us come home together. You know
what I mean? But I don't know. It's learning, So
we'll see. Feeling pretty good, we'll see how it goes tonight.

(11:52):
You might dip in that number when I propose my
plan for later for you once we get off air.

Speaker 2 (11:58):
I don't want to hear it.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
I don't want to hear it.

Speaker 2 (12:00):
Whatever you're about to say, I don't want to hear
I already say no.

Speaker 1 (12:03):
But you mentioned it. This week. Our guest Kate Rope
phenomenal conversation. Her book Strong as a Girl just came out.
We're super excited about it. It's about how to empower
young girls. That's her mantra. And she worked also with
the Jed Foundation, which is really close to my heart.
They go into schools and educate and provide resources surrounding

(12:25):
mental health, particularly to middle aged and high school age kids.
It's incredible work. If you don't know about them, check
them out. That's Jed Jed and Kate Rope does all
great things with them. We had an incredible conversation with
her and I can't wait for everyone to hear it.
Right after the break.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
Hi, Kate, I'm so excited to have you. Welcome to
these paxtbook.

Speaker 3 (12:56):
Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.
Thanks for inviting me on.

Speaker 2 (12:59):
If you don't mind, and give us a quick intro
of Strong as a Girl.

Speaker 1 (13:03):
Let's talk a little bit about your new book.

Speaker 2 (13:04):
Give us the elevator pitch we can start to get
into it.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
Sure so, Strong as a Girl is for caregivers and
parents of elementary age kids who identify as girls. And
my whole reason for writing it is that a lot
of the books that are out there that talk about
raising girls tend to focus on middle school or high school,
and they're kind of focused on troubleshooting, and there can
be a little scary, and I wanted to write a

(13:29):
book that started in the early years. You know, the
water's shallow, the rocks are smaller. You can teach them
to swim, so that then when you see them in
the rapids downstream, both of you are way more comfortable
in your ability to navigate them. So that was the
whole deal. I'm very pro caregiver, pro parent. I tried
to keep everything low key, just easy things you can

(13:52):
do to raise a strong girl that decrease your stress level,
don't add to your to do list, and help your
girl just become exactly who she was meant to be.

Speaker 1 (13:59):
I appreciate all of the resources and the nuggets that
you put like so for those who aren't familiar with
the book, at the end of every section there are
like reading suggestions or resource suggestions. I think that's super helpful.
And I didn't realize until I started reading it that
it was about younger age kids. But I want to
back up for a second, because we spent a lot
of time talking about hockey on our podcast, Sports et cetera.

(14:21):
So I have to ask, do you have any hockey
connection and or sports connection?

Speaker 2 (14:27):
No, No, I hate hockey.

Speaker 3 (14:28):
No I our family knows zero about sports.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
No.

Speaker 3 (14:32):
Actually I think hockey appears cool. And you know, I
grew up going to New England for Christmases and stuff,
so I saw a lot of people skating and playing
on you know, lakes, back when lakes got frozen enough
to do that. So I admire it from a distance.
But I know zero about hockey or most other sports
except for maybe competitive swimming.

Speaker 2 (14:53):
Well, the sport of motherhood is a whole other ballgame,
but the context pets it and.

Speaker 3 (14:59):
It's a team, and don't let anyone else tell you different.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
You are correct.

Speaker 2 (15:03):
So Madison is a connection and we all kind of
do but with the Jed Foundation. So before we get
too much into the book, tell us about your work
with Jed. Tell us about why that motivates you. Tell
us about because it sounds like when you frame up
the book that it's foundational in so many ways. And
I think the way you explain that, like most books
about girls are troubleshooting, How did the work that you've
done foundationally for Jed Seleni Institute. Some of the other

(15:25):
things that you've done. How did that work shape what
your perspective is here.

Speaker 3 (15:29):
Basically, I had a really difficult pregnancy and I had
postpartum anxiety. And after that, I started writing my first book,
Strong as a Mother, and I got a job running
all the online content for the Seleni Institute, which is
a maternal mental health nonprofit. So I kind of spent
five years soaked in all the challenges of trying to

(15:50):
make human beings, trying to bring them into your life,
trying to live with them, the tragedies that can happen.
All the stuff we're talking about is treated as easy.
All this stuff we're talking about is like par for
the course. You get pregnant, you have a baby, you
have a mom, you raise a kid, and all of
it is like some of the most important work in
the world. And therefore, of course it's really really hard,

(16:12):
but no one acknowledges that. So that's where I started,
and I started with my own experience of maternal mental
health issues, and from there things just kind of grew
with me and with my parenting experience, and I began
writing more about parenting and then the very beginning of
the pandemic, we lost a thirteen year old in my
community to suicide, and I just like had to do something,

(16:36):
and so I wrote a piece for the Washington Post.
Because people are so afraid of suicide, they don't know
how to talk about it, and they're worried that if
they do, they'll introduce the idea. But actually, this is
one of the conversations you should be having with your kids.
Is just an open one about Hey, you could get
to a place where you feel really alone, and I
want you to know I will be there. You will

(16:57):
not be alone in that place if it happens. So
I wrote that story, got introduced to JED, and then
they brought me on as a consultant, and then they
got me back into full time work, which I never
thought I would ever do again. And that was a calling.
I mean, I really believe that mental health is the
number one thing we should be working on as a culture,

(17:18):
as a society, as a nation, as a parent, on
all the levels. And so it's truly an honor to
be able to do that. At JED, I was able
to work with students and clinicians and create messaging. You know,
I created a campaign for JED called It's Okay to
Say Suicide, and it was literally just what I was
just talking about. It's okay to actually ask someone are

(17:39):
you thinking about suicide? Or have you ever thought about it?
Or I'm thinking about it? Can I talk to you
about it? You know? So my whole goal is just
to make the unspeakable speakable, make vulnerability cool again, and
teach people how to reach for help and teach people
how to help. I love that and I actually I
did a lot of work with the Jed Foundation. I
don't know if you know, for these who don't know,

(18:00):
the Jed Foundation does incredible work. It was founded by
two individuals who lost their son Jed, to suicide.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
I like what they do a lot because like you
think about No Knock, but you think about like a
project semi colon, right, it's a movement and it stands
for something. But like community centers, foundations like the JED Foundation,
like they're going into communities and they're going into schools
and they're providing resources and educating students. And I think
that that's the huge thing because to what you just
spoke to, I lost a friend of mine when I

(18:28):
was sixteen, in high school to suicide, and it unfortunately
just became like an epidemic in our community where I've
lost a lot of people that I grew up with
to drug overdose and suicide. And the schools wouldn't touch it.
They were like, we can't talk about this, We don't
our counselors aren't prepared. We don't want to address it
because won the liability, but also just people aren't prepared,

(18:48):
right that they don't know how to handle it. And
so I think that that's what I like most about
the book, in my opinion, is it provides actual tools, right.
So I think it's so funny because I noticed and
realized that I parent my son so much differently than
my daughter, and I have such different fears about my
daughter than my son. And the first thing that I

(19:09):
wrote down when I was going through the book was
the section strong girls Understand their bodies and how So
I'm gonna throw my mom under the bus for a second.
But when I was a kid, my parents like we
did the birds and the bees talk and whatever. But
like that was the extent of it. And my wife
and I have spent a lot of time talking in
the aftermath about how it's so important to educate kids

(19:29):
from a really early age how to have a positive
relationship with their body, how to empower them to set
boundaries about their body, and how that all starts so early.
Our new thing with her is Harlan, do you like
the way that you're playing? And she'll even say yes
or no, because it's like we were trying not to
plant a seed right of like you're doing something wrong
or you shouldn't be like, yeah, you're playing, but also

(19:50):
do you like that?

Speaker 3 (19:50):
So you're planting the seed of how does she feel
about the way she's.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
How do you communicate that? Yeah? But I think that
that was a really important section, And so if you
just want to speak to again, like I'm someone who
is starting to think about how to talk to my
daughter about these things. I've been a pro athlete for
ten years. I have, you know, my own struggles with
body image and things like why was that such an
important thing to include in the book, And also how
do you help parents or prepare parents to have those

(20:16):
conversations that they're going to continue to have and evolve, right,
But like, how do you even broach the topic with kids?
And when's the appropriate time to do it? Do you think?

Speaker 3 (20:24):
Yeah? So, I think what we miss is that our
bodies are like one of the most important things about us,
not because of how they look, but that's the way
society values them, but because of what they do for us. Right,
tiny miracles are happening in our bodies all the time.
I think my approach as a young mom was to
not bring up any of it, was to just completely
ignore sort of appearance and body image, and I thought

(20:46):
that was the right thing to do. But now I
realize that what's much more empowering is teaching any kid.
But I'm talking about girls, especially because of the way
society values them, that their bodies miraculous thing and it's
meant to support them, it works hard for them, it's
meant to feel pleasure. We're so averse to talking about

(21:07):
pleasure in our society. So obviously, when you're talking to
a three year old about pleasure, it's like, how does
the sun feel on your skin? Connecting with your body
as an important part of your life that provides you
with all these things and that you need.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
To care for it.

Speaker 3 (21:22):
So it's like that leads to the ability to say,
my body is for me, not you. You know I'm
the boss of my body, which is what I taught
my girls to say from a very young age. The
ability to say no, the ability to understand what feels
good and what doesn't. Because I have a very thorough
section on how you can significantly lower your risk that
your child will be sexually abused. Just knowing what feels

(21:45):
good lowers a girl's risk of being sexually assaulted when
she's older. You understand, oh, this doesn't feel good to
me because I know what feels good to my body
and this isn't it. And you're able to recognize it
and then take action because you've been empowered to take action.
So there's sort of that part of it, and then
the part of it around body image. It's so hard
to have a body in its culture.

Speaker 2 (22:07):
You know.

Speaker 3 (22:07):
There's body positivity you gotta love your body, and then
there's body neutrality, like however you feel about your body's cool,
you know, But all those things are about how you
feel about how your body presents to other people and
not about your own relationship to your body. There's this
awesome philosophy professor from Cornell named Kate Mann, and she
came up with she calls it body reflexivity.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
But my body is for me.

Speaker 3 (22:29):
My body is not for comparison, it's not for consumerism.
It's just for me. So instilling in that really early
with girls, and it can start on the diaper table,
you know, it can start when you're changing their diaper,
like this is your elbow, this is your knee, this
is your volva. These things are for you, you know.
And if she's one of those kids that starts like
rubbing herself when she's watching cartoons, you know, oh, you've

(22:51):
discovered you can make yourself feel good.

Speaker 1 (22:53):
Isn't that great?

Speaker 3 (22:54):
That's a that's an awesome thing to do behind doors
in your own room, because that's for you to enjoy
it for yourself. There's just little, not as scary ways
to get into the topic, so that you've practiced and
practice and practice though that when you're having the conversation
with your fourteen year old or your sixteen year old,
you guys are comfortable with it. You know, it may
still be a little awkward because that's just our cultural

(23:15):
connection to it. But you've made this a topic that
you all share in to go back to little kids
at night. You know, my younger daughter would thank our.

Speaker 1 (23:24):
Bodies for all they did for us that day.

Speaker 3 (23:26):
You know, thank you for taking me up the stairs,
thank you for helping me learn how to read the
letter A. We did a sort of an acknowledgment that
our bodies had worked hard for us that day and
now it was time for them to rest. And you know,
you mentioned that you like the tips or strategies, and
I feel like that's really important in a book, because
books that say like, have an open conversation about sex

(23:47):
with your child, well, if you are a parent who
already knows how to have an open conversation about sex
with your child, you don't need that paragraph of that book.
But if you're a parent who doesn't, you're not any
better off by being told to have an open conversation
because that's not what you were taught, that's not what
you're comfortable with. And so I literally want to give
people here's four different ways to say it, you know,
here's three different places you could try it, like little

(24:09):
baby steps to show what an open conversation can look like,
so it feels accessible and they know to try, instead
of just saying, well, if I knew how to have
an open conversation, I'd be doing it.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
I think the part about all of this that is
so helpful is I think a lot of times we
parent to soothe her inner child that maybe didn't get
that kind of support or didn't necessarily understand those things.
I remember being a very awkward kid. I was very
my wife's laughing, I was very into sports. I was
very laser focused and what I was laser focused in.

(24:40):
I didn't really care very much one way or the
other about my body, what it looked like. I didn't
really get bogged into that. But my mom doesn't talk
about that. So when it came time for me to
think about being feminine or like what do I like?
Or what is my sexuality? Or like where is my identity?
Lie like all of these questions because my mom was
kind of like, yeah, I don't know, or just like

(25:01):
skinny and athletic, like that's just kind of like our build,
that's just what we are. I never really looked at
myself in a very feminine light. I didn't have those
conversations right Like, I knew my body could do amazing things,
but I didn't necessarily ground myself in the reality that
it was mine. But I think that's so topical today

(25:23):
with social media and just everything that's going on. Yeah,
thank you, and I appreciate the lens that you're putting
on it.

Speaker 3 (25:29):
Talking about body image was really important to me. And
this gets back to talking about mental health, which is
that eating disorders have basically tripled since the pandemic, and
hospitalizations for eating disorders among adolescents have gone up seven
almost seven times. So there is an epidemic of eating
disorders happening, fueled in large part by social media. And

(25:53):
I talk about what to look for and how to
get help, and I talk about the science of eating disorders,
which is actually very different than how most us think
about them. But also this is work to sort of
inoculate your kid as much as you can from outside
influence so that when they reach that point where the
whole world is just beaming one very narrow definition of

(26:14):
beauty at them, they're armed to be critical of it
and to understand who they are and what doesn't apply
to them.

Speaker 1 (26:22):
And you talk about that in the book too, right,
like the how especially now companies are promoting and then
in turn profiting off of girls and securities and their
body image, and like it spans from makeup and clothing
and body image, et cetera. Like anything you can anything
you can access and see and obviously, like our two
year old isn't on Instagram, but she has an idea

(26:44):
even with food, Like my son said the other day,
he's like, I want something healthy. Maybe that's not a
word that we use because our kids don't eat unhealthy
food anyways, but I think he overheard it from someone else,
And I think that it's incredibly unhealthy for a two
and four year old to have to like right.

Speaker 3 (27:02):
To be able to have a moral relationship to food.

Speaker 1 (27:05):
Yeah, and like have like any kind of emotion about it,
Like you're two and four and like, you know, trust
mammy and mama to give you things that are good
for you. But like this idea of healthy and why
you're concerned about it at four, Like it just it
really bothered me. But women have the highest buying and
spending power in the country right now. So the fact
that we don't recognize that these women that we're trying

(27:27):
to empower to buy the things that we want to sell.
In the same breath, we're telling this next wave of
women that mostly what matters is what is on the outside,
not what's on the inside. So what what message would
you have to marketers who are taking that stance? Essentially,
I mean, I don't know that they're reachable.

Speaker 3 (27:48):
I'll be honest, you know, I don't know that we
can get I mean, it would be wonderful if there
were more doves out there. There are brands that take
it on.

Speaker 1 (27:56):
Elf is a good one, I think, yeah, But the
mods of my company, I think that they do a
good job.

Speaker 3 (28:01):
Yeah, but we're in a capitalist society and prophet is king,
so I think they're masters. They know psychology, they know
exactly what they're doing. So I would say, you know,
it's more about how you talk to your kids about it,
and it's more about how you think about what you're
bringing into your home and how you're engaging with it.
And now I haven't fact checked this, but there's a

(28:22):
book that came out. It was kind of a tell
all from a woman who worked at Meta, and she
said that they actually built an algorithm within Instagram where
if a girl posts a selfie of herself and then
immediately takes it down, she gets fed beauty and diet
ads after that because they know that someone who's posted

(28:43):
a selfie and taken it down is in a vulnerable
moment of self reflection, and so they feed them things.
So's it's pretty insidious. I don't really expect them to
have a moral compass. I hope they do, but I
think it's it's up to us to educate everybody about that.
You know, I'm kind of a hard ass about social media,

(29:04):
but I don't think kids should be on social media
un till sixteen because the adolescent years are so sensitive
development wise. The whole point of the adolescent years is
to help you figure out where you fit in, you know, biologically,
evolutionarily finding your group. They're incredibly sensitive and primed to
take on the opinions and outside view, and when you're

(29:25):
feeding them skinny talk or any of this stuff online
that masks is healthy. I mean, basically, we kind of
went through this period where we push back against culture,
and now it has risen again under the guise of healthiness.
As much as you can protect your kids from that,
I say, do it. Not everybody agrees with me on that,
but I think that's if you can shut down one

(29:47):
fire hose until they're a little bit older and have
better critical thinking skills. In our program, to just follow
the leader, the better off your kids are.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
A long time ago, someone was like, we were actually
on a playground and I said something to Harlan, you know,
Whalen had like run and done something. He's our four
year old boy. Harlan then tried to do the same
thing and I was like, oh, be careful. And it
was actually a dad that said to me, he said,
have you ever noticed that you tell your daughter to
be careful when you tell your son to go for it?
And I was like no, And the guy wasn't being

(30:30):
a jerk. He was yeah, he was a girl that
and he's like he's like, it's like, I'm not trying
to step on toes like you just you look athletic.
Someone said that to me a while ago, and he's like,
I have all girls. And so I just was wondering
if you've ever found yourself like in the moment recognizing
that you're limiting her where you're teaching him to be adventurous.
And I was like, I thought, I just thought it

(30:50):
was so interesting, and I do find myself doing that
a lot. And I think that part of it is
just this like societal stigma that we have placed on
young girls and women, right and like it's completely opposite
to the lens that we see young boys in.

Speaker 3 (31:04):
Yeah, and I have so much compassion for us, right
because we're soaked in this, you know.

Speaker 1 (31:08):
Like I saw.

Speaker 3 (31:09):
Ebram x Kendy speak once and he said, you know,
you're you're born like he was talking about racism, but
you're born into water. You're born into it. So don't
blame yourself for being wet. But once you realize you're wet,
dry yourself off. All this stuff is so normal. We
were fed it, we're working through it, you know, especially
if you're a female caregiver, you've been told at some

(31:31):
point that your body is wrong in one way or another,
maybe a lot, maybe a little bit. We come up
through that, We come up through being told be careful,
you know. And so my point in the book is
not to say like, don't do that, like, oh, you've
been doing it all wrong.

Speaker 1 (31:45):
You know.

Speaker 3 (31:45):
It's like, of course you've been doing it that way
because you're a product of this culture too. But hey,
let's try a different way and see how it works out.
And also, what I think is cool is that talking
to your kids about changes you're making can be educational. Right,
So if that you have that conversation. You can talk
with Harlan about you know what I've noticed.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
I've noticed it.

Speaker 3 (32:04):
Sometimes I'll tell you to be careful, but I'll tell
Waylan to go for it. And I'm sorry that that's
like a story I have from growing up about what
girls can do and what boys can do. But it's
not a real story, and I'm going to work on
changing it. And just that conversation, just for seeing you
acknowledge a mistake and work from it, which is good
for all kinds of things. But also just seeing you

(32:26):
wrestle with the issue brings her awareness to the issue
and to the importance of wrestling with it and thinking critically.

Speaker 2 (32:33):
I'm really interested in the conversation around You know, you
can help your kids get out of sexual assault. You
can help your kids get to a point where they
can identify it feel grooming, sea grooming. We talk to
our daughter a lot about not having her private parts
be touched by anybody that doesn't want to write. We're
trying to teach our four year old about consent. We're
trying to get our kids at a really young age

(32:55):
to understand I might not want to hug, I might
not feel comfortable around this person, Like my private parts
are for me, and if somebody touches me in a
way that doesn't feel good, no matter what they tell me,
you'll never be in trouble to tell mammy and mama right,
like right, That's what we try to do. And I
think that we come from a place of like Madison
and I both have experiences that we wish that we

(33:17):
were given that advice to feel like there's that safe space.
Talk a little bit about how you navigate that.

Speaker 3 (33:24):
In the book, I have a very thorough section on
how you can significantly lower your risk that your child
will be sexually abused. Just knowing what feels good lowers
a girl's risk of being sexually assaulted when she's older.
You understand, oh, this doesn't feel good to me because
I know what feels good to my body and this
isn't it, and you're able to recognize it. In researching

(33:44):
and in talking to sexual abuse prevention experts, I've learned
that actually most of the effectiveness and responsibility is on
the adults. We'll get there, but first, just to talk
about the body stuff, So parenting from a place of consent, modeling,
even just at night, you know it's bedtime. How you
want to say good night, You want to high five,
you want to kiss, you want to hug, Like really
taking a step back from assuming that your child is

(34:09):
going to be physical with you, And I think that's
really hard for us to do. It's certainly harder for
our older relatives to do, because for the most part,
most people are taught that a family that loves each
other is physical with each other. But even that, you know,
stepping back and modeling that in everyday moments. You know,
granddad wants a hug, and your kid doesn't like giving
out hugs. She only sees granddad once a year, so like,

(34:29):
you don't have to hug granddad. You know, how would
you like to say hi to them? Would you like
to wave and say hi, Grandad, nice to see you.
You know there are times the kids running into traffic,
you got to grab them. You can't be like, it's
okay if I hold your arm at this moment, but
then after you can be like, I'm so sorry I
grabbed you.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
I had to keep you safe.

Speaker 3 (34:45):
Mostly, I want you to let me know if the
way I, you know, interact with you or touch you
is not what you want and I want to respect that,
you know. And then if they do express a boundary
instead of being like, ah, she doesn't want to give
me a kiss good night, which you may feel inside
and that's okay, but you can say like, I'm so
glad you told me that that was your boundary, you know,
because that kid's way more likely to give love on

(35:06):
you later if you're respecting them in that moment, and yes, recognizing.
So one big thing we taught our girls, and is
a good thing to teach kids, is that in our family,
we don't keep secrets. We like surprises, but we don't
keep secrets, and secrets make you feel bad. Secrets feel
like with pressure. Surprises are like, you know, Grandma's gonna

(35:26):
love it if we give her a gift she wasn't
expecting on her birthday or whatever. And so when my
older daughter again was four, I think she was at
a magic show and I had taught her this, and
she was called like they asked for volunteers, and she
went on stage and the magician whispered something in her
ear that she goes, we don't keep secrets in my family,
and the whole audience cracked up. But I was like, yes, God,

(35:48):
that's what I want, because basically, people who prey on children,
people who harm children look for kids and adults.

Speaker 2 (35:57):
Who don't push back.

Speaker 3 (35:58):
So the kid who is more likely to say that
is the kid's gonna be like, oh, this one's not
a pushover.

Speaker 2 (36:03):
You know.

Speaker 3 (36:05):
However, most of the time that someone hurts your kid,
if they're going to they're going to be someone your
kid knows, and it's going to be very subtle, and
the chance that they will say stop it, don't do that,
walk away is very small. I learned this from a
wonderful sexual abuse prevention expert, Feather Burkhauer, who has really
great trainings that I recommend to all parents. It's Parenting

(36:25):
Safe Children. I think it's her website, but it's all
about caregiver grooming usually happens before child grooming. So it's
the coach who calls you up and says, hey, your
kid's doing so well on the team. You want to
get a drink sometime. You know, they're flattering you about
your kid, they're trying to get in with you. They're
a friend, and you're less likely to push back against
something you don't like. The example I tell in the

(36:47):
book is that I did ballet as a kid. See
that was like a ballet theater kid and not a
sports kid. When I was six, I was in ballet
school and there was an owner of the school who
would come around and correct our position, and I hated
it when he did it. I didn't want him when
he did it, and I didn't know why in hindsight.
He put his hand on my leg like in an
Arab basque, really close to my crotch, and I knew

(37:09):
I didn't like that, but I had no words for it,
so I didn't tell my parents anything. And then one
day he called my dad and he's like, I just
want to tell you how great your daughter's doing and
also what a great tight little body she has for dancing.
And my dad just was like, oh, Like his uh
oh button just really kicked in and he told my

(37:29):
mom I don't want her going back there, like he
listened to like his O button. Right away, they let
me go to one more class, and my mom showed
up early to monitor what was happening. And when she
showed up, the owner was driving me and a couple
other girls around did a little mini car he had.
He would drive us around the block which I just
thought was the coolest. My mom saw that and she said,
this has nothing to do with ballet. It's totally inappropriate.

(37:49):
She pulled me from the class, and two months later
he was arrested for assaulting six year old girls with
long blonde hair, which was me. I had an uh
oh feeling, but I was too young to understand it.
They listened to their oh feeling and took action and
probably protected me from being abused. So I think really
knowing that you have the power as a parent to

(38:11):
ask do you I mean, any place you're sending your
kid where they are not with you, you need to
find out what kind of child sexual abuse prevention policies
do they have in place, and does it include caregiver grooming,
because they should have rules that don't allow their staff
to engage with you in a way that is caregiver grooming.
They need to actually be thinking about that, and if
they're not, they're not protected. That's not the place for

(38:33):
your kid. In my book, I go through very specific
things like that that you can do how to have
these awkward conversations when you leave your kid on a
play date and you want to let them know what
your body's safety rules are and your family that is
super awkward and getting comfortable being awkward, getting comfortable saying
the thing you know that nobody likes, because predators will
say any family that pushes back slightly, I'm out of there.

(38:56):
They're looking for families where there's permissibility when it's a
little wishy washy, and that's when they know they can
do their thing.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
Well. Two things, One, thank you for sharing that. I
think that it's a topic that no one wants to
talk about because it's such an icky and uncomfortable topic
to talk about, but it's so common unfortunately, because just
the world is there's a lot of not good people
in it. And to your point, like I grew up
on a hockey team that had a coach that was

(39:24):
praying on girls, and my dad was heavily involved in
the program, and I think that he did a good
job of like making sure that it was clear that
he was a present parent and we had a good
communication strategy. And so in the very same and similar
way we have our role with our kids is we
don't lie to each other, we don't keep secrets, like
we talk about hard things, because if you don't have

(39:45):
that and you're afraid constantly of consequence or judgment or backlash,
like you're not going to ever know what's going on. Right. Yeah,
you said earlier that you wanted your book to be
a pro caregiver and pro parent like resource and book,
and so I just if you can go a little deeper,
like what that means to you and why it's so
important to you when you started.

Speaker 3 (40:05):
Writing, Yeah, I just I'm pro human, you know, I
just I want to get a bumper siccre that says
like people are my religion, my church meets everywhere. Like
I just think we're all deserving of safety, respect, dignity
and whatever we need to get through this thing called life.
And so making mistakes is gonna it's the name of

(40:27):
the game, and it's actually good. You want to teach
your kid.

Speaker 1 (40:29):
You can make mistakes.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
You want to show your kid how do you recover
from mistakes. There's going to be topics that are tough
for you because of whatever your life experiences have been.
And if you had a history of sexual abuse or
some kind of assault, and talking about these things with
your kid is really hard. First of all, like totally
get it. Second of all, see if you can get
some support of yourself. Third of all, you can outsource,
you know, like, if it's just too much, you can

(40:52):
find another adult. You can find a book. If you
are raising a child with a partner, your partner like,
we're humans too, So I think I think that is
really important. And my last book is about how to
take care of your mental health during pregnancy early parenting.
And it did well, which you know, most books don't
do well. Most books don't sell, so thank you for

(41:14):
having me on your podcast. It did well. It did
not do incredibly well, because it is a hard sell
to tell a woman to take care of herself, right,
especially a mom who's taught that like, this is her
number one role above all, and there's no room for
error because you're entirely responsible for this product that you're
putting out in the world. So how do you help

(41:37):
your girl know that the first person she wants to
be thinking about in this situation is actually herself?

Speaker 1 (41:41):
How do I feel?

Speaker 3 (41:42):
Do I want to do this?

Speaker 1 (41:43):
How do I like this?

Speaker 2 (41:43):
What's my opinion?

Speaker 3 (41:44):
Because girls are evolutionarily programmed and culturally programmed to care
about other people more than themselves, that's how they end
up being moms.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
Who don't buy my book.

Speaker 1 (41:53):
Now, I'm just kidding, Like, well, I was gonna laugh.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
I read about one hundred books when I was pregnant,
and I took recommendations from everyone before all of this
research for this specific thing. Had never heard of it,
and I wish I had, because as an athlete, I
allow myself to suffer. We talked about this all the time,
like we'll work out until we throw up, we'll starve ourselves,
we'll overeat so that we gain weight, like whatever it
is that we have to do for athletics. So when

(42:17):
I was going through pregnancy, I was like, oh, hell, yeah,
it's gonna suck. It's gonna be terrible. I'm never gonna
be getting what I need. Like Anya went away for
years and years and now I'm finally back. But but
to your point, like the last person I cared about
then and until very recently was me. I was like,
I'll be fine, make sure right, my kids are good,

(42:38):
my wife is good, my situation is good. And then
I'm like, wait a second. Should I eat a leafy green?

Speaker 3 (42:43):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (42:43):
Probably?

Speaker 2 (42:44):
Like should I treat my podcasts?

Speaker 3 (42:46):
Should I try to sleep?

Speaker 2 (42:47):
No?

Speaker 3 (42:48):
Right, exactly, I'd go to these baby shower events where
they've got the newest cool stroller. I'm not even gonna
try to mention a name because I know I'm so
out of the loop. And then I would have my
little table because I had to fund it myself, and
I made this little poster that says some thing like
babies are so exciting, but they get all the presents
and all the gear. Have you gotten anything for yourself?
And then I have my book, right, But no, I

(43:09):
would be very lonely in the corner of the baby
shower event because people will come up and they'd be like, huh.

Speaker 2 (43:16):
And part of that is you.

Speaker 3 (43:17):
Don't know what you need until you need it, so
that's a huge part of it. But also just that's
not our cultural orientation toward motherhood. So for me, it's
like the family is an ecosystem. Humans are an ecosystem.
We all need to be cared for. I said, like,
you're going to read things in this book that maybe
you haven't been doing the way this expert says is

(43:38):
the best way to do it. And by the way,
welcome to the club. I really want people to get
that message, like this is not a to do list,
These are ideas, These are areas to think about, like
what matters the most to you? Focus on that in
the book. I don't want anyone to feel after reading
this worse than when they started. That's the whole point.
The whole point is like, build a foundation that low

(44:00):
lowers your anxiety, that lowers your stress level so that
you can just enjoy your daughter and parenting her.

Speaker 2 (44:06):
We also follow your substack. We've been really deep into
the world of Kate Rope.

Speaker 3 (44:10):
I'm trying to get it going.

Speaker 1 (44:11):
I just started so well, well, I just.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
Listened to or read the I'm not a horrible mom,
like the mom did one that time in your mind
where you say I am the worst, and I say
this to Maddie often right, like we had to cry
for help about our son, Whalan, who wasn't sleeping well
and then was getting in trouble, and then was I
was yelling at night because he wasn't going to bed,
and blah blah blah. The cycle continues, and I was crying.

(44:36):
I'm like Madison, I'm the worst mother in the world.
Can't help him sleep, can't stop yelling at him, I'm
spent and so all of this to say, the mom
guilt element of it can be quite laborious. That can
be a whole other piece that we're all trying to
work through. So can you talk a little bit about
maybe the like that feeling of catching yourself, what it

(44:57):
feels like as a parent when you mess up. Maybe
had a nawvigate that a little bit easier.

Speaker 3 (45:01):
Yeah, I mean I think that there is this really
insidious narrative that moms need to do at all, that
moms are entirely responsible for people their kids become. But
it's a totally separate human being than you, Like, how
on earth there's so much you don't control. Right, There's
this concept that I talked about in my first book
called the good Enough Mother, and there was this awesome

(45:22):
I think he was a psychiatrist and a pediatrician in England,
Donald Winnicott, and he came up with the sing in
left forties that was like kids need a good enough mother,
and a good enough mother meets their basic needs but
fails them in small, manageable ways that give them the.

Speaker 1 (45:37):
Space to rise to the occasion.

Speaker 2 (45:39):
Right.

Speaker 3 (45:39):
So that's the other thing is that we know we're
hearing this thing of like there's this culture of helicopter
no shovel parenting, you know, fixing everything before it becomes
a problem. So when you screw up, like let's say
that you are kind of helicoptery or whatever. I mean,
I'd say, work on backing off it if you can.
But you're going to screw up, and you're going to
end up leaving them high and dry in certain situations.

Speaker 2 (46:02):
I mean, I think that that offers us all so
much grace, and I like the concept of allowing your
kids to fix the little failures. I always say, our
kids are gonna end up on a couch, like therapy
is good for everybody, but they're good. It's all it's
gonna happen if what we put them on the couch
for is manageable and we've had given them the tools
to be able to get through it. Like fine, by me,

(46:23):
I'm here to foot the bill. My mom always jokes,
She's like, I'll flip the bill. I understand, it's my problem, right,
But the bit's real to allow our kids to feel
our failures and then overcome them. So every episode we
kind of wrap with the same question. I want to
maybe put it a little bit differently because I think
your advice across The entire book is incredibly topical. Right,

(46:46):
what advice maybe did you get or not get? Here's
that like gives us the space to wish that we
had known something when you were trying to raise good kids,
or when you watch people try to raise good kids.
What is the like foundational piece of advice that you
think is either missing or that you received and changed
your life.

Speaker 3 (47:03):
I think both came from my mother, to whom I
dedicated the book. One is and this isn't so much
a piece of advice, but just an orientation toward parenting,
which was total acceptance. I was never worried about judgment.
I said some things as a kid that were not great,
and my mom, even in those moments, said, you know,
I remember one time I was really mad at my

(47:23):
volleyball coach. Actually, maybe this is why I have issues
with sports. But I got demoted. I was a setter,
and I got demoted from varsity to junior varsity my
senior year because there's this hot shot setter that came
up and I was screaming about my volleyball coach and
I said some really nasty things in my eighteen year
old I don't know, seventeen year old brain, and my
mom listened to all of it. She let me cry,

(47:44):
she listened, she listened, she listened, and then she said
at the end of it, she said, I totally hear
how upset you are, Katie. I also want you to
know that we don't ever use something about someone to
hurt them, because I had said something about this person
that was, you know, sort of getting at the core
of who they were, and I was using it as
an insult, and she's like, we don't do that. So
even in that moment, I said something terrible and my

(48:08):
mother didn't make me feel terrible, but she still took
the moment to educate me.

Speaker 1 (48:11):
So there's that.

Speaker 3 (48:12):
And then the other one she said is you can't
have too many people who love your kid. And that
was when I was like nervous about hiring a nanny
or daycare, like who could possibly And she's like, the
more people who love your kid, the better. And now
with all the research that's come out and the Sergeant
Generals Report on isolation and social support, like she was
just saying it as an instinct, but that is true.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
I really like that advice. It's always fun when we
have people on and it's a bonus, but it's an
expert because everyone always answers that question differently. And this
is something that I will implement. Never use something about
someone to hurt them. I've never heard that before, and
I think that that's a very simple but direct way

(48:56):
of explaining it to a kid like it's and it
is just that simple, right, So I really like that
piece of advice. I just wanted to show you.

Speaker 2 (49:02):
Out everything that you've said today and in your book
and across all of the places, whether it's Substack, whether
it's your first book, whether it's a second book, it's
very much heard by us. It's foundational to how we're
trying to parent. We're trying to pick up the good parts.
So thank you, thank you for joining us, thank you
for coming on these PACs. Puck and we will. You'll
be a next cry for helpe when we figure something

(49:24):
else out that's not going well. But thank you so much,
thank you so much for having me. And this has
been so enjoyable. It's just been a good conversation. I
love your guys openness and orientation toward all this.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
It's great.

Speaker 2 (49:35):
Thank you, thank you, And if you guys want to
check out the book, It's available anywhere where you can
get books. Pick up a copy, gift a copy of
Tough as a mother to your pregnant friends, share the
message broadly. We're going to raise really strong, super kick
ass girls. So thank you, Kate, thank you for joining us.
Thank you, and we'll get into something equally crazy. I'm
sure next episode.

Speaker 1 (50:01):
That's it for this week.

Speaker 2 (50:03):
Thanks for listening, and if you like what you heard,
spread the word seriously right now, take your phone out,
Text a friend and tell them to subscribe, and.

Speaker 1 (50:11):
Be sure to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts
and Spotify if you haven't already. It really really helps
until next week. I'm Madison Packer and.

Speaker 2 (50:19):
I'm Onya Packer and this was These Packs Puck.

Speaker 1 (50:23):
These Packs Puck is a production of iHeart Women's Sports
and Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. It's hosted by us
Madison and Aya Packer. Emily Mehernoff is our senior producer
and story editor. We were mixed and mastered by Mary Doo.
Our executive producers are Jennifer Bassett, Jesse Katz, and Ali
Perry