October 28, 2025 • 40 mins
Lately, Madison and Anya have gone all-in on a new role: coaching youth hockey. This challenging yet rewarding job is making the Packers reflect on the ghosts of coaches past from their time on the ice. Madison and Anya discuss how important it was that they started coaching because of the representation it shows to the girls and to chart a new path away from yelling and berating style of coaching that they endured at the youth level. There’s no better way to give back to the community as a pro athlete than to give back to the next generation, so listen to learn how Madison and Anya are committing to make a difference.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi everyone, Welcome to these packs puck. I'm Madison Packer.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
And I'm Anya Packer. Madison and I are both former
pro hockey players. We met through hockey and fell in love,
and now we're married with two awesome toddlers, ages two
and four.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
These days, we're opening up about the chaos of our
daily lives, between the juggle of being athletes, raising kids.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
And all the messiness in between. So buckle the puck
up because there is a lot to talk about. Hello, Anya,
Hi pack how you doing.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Wait, this is the first time I'm seeing you today
and you look so cute. Thank you yellow blush on
your nose.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I know, I feel like i'm a little over blushed.
To be fair, You're like, good babe, thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I was trying before we started to show the producers
our friendship Bracelet. I'm the most who Clancy, and I'm
Pooh and yes, as a grown adult Pooh Bear. I
mean hum, I bought these as a grown adult and
I thought of you when I saw them. Yeah, I
love that.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I did my blush for Piglet today.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Exciting nugget of the day. You go, well, I'm excited
for this episode.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I was going to say, this is your new passion,
I mean, not your new passion, but it's like your
passion projects. So, without further ado, what's your hockey hot take?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Hockey hot take? Preface this with I'm currently coaching, slash
mentoring the CJR kind of Kitchenia Rangers nineteen you girls
shout out to them, and Anya is also helping and mentoring,
and I got involved just like I was going to
do their skills and mentor and help out as much
as I could, but pursuing the broadcasting thing, I didn't
(01:38):
want to over commit. Then like ten days before the
season started, their coach quit, which like who does that? Yeah? Kids,
But I was just righting the skills and then doing
meetings with them and like life skills and like life
mentoring meetings, and I'm like, I really like these kids.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
You've got the it.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Long story short, I'm roped in. Yeah, I'm roped in.
And it works well with like call times and stuff
for broadcasting. But we never see each other, which is
why I said you look great, because I feel like
it's been like months. But my kids over the weekend
played really, really really poorly, and they know that they did,
and they're like coach, you need to get mad at us.
(02:15):
So my hockey hot take is we should not have
to yell and brate and belittle our athletes, students, et cetera, kids,
whatever it might be, in order to motivate them. And
I feel super passionately about that. And I said that
at a coaching conference that I was at over the summer.
I spoke at a coaching conference and there was a
gentleman there from the Chicago Steel and he's like, you know,
(02:37):
we get these guys and we just we break them.
So I'm listening to him talk and he's just like,
you know, we have to completely break them and show
them what, you know, how much they can handle. And
then I got up next and I'm like, I could
not disagree more. And I don't not that he's not
a super successful individual shade, but what kind of message
does it send? I feel, especially to young women. And
(02:58):
this is what I said to my kids yesterday. You
want me to motivate you, I can do that. But
Mark Johnson I never he never yelled in this in
the six five six years that I played with him
across different teams, Like you just knew. Yeah. And so
I said to the girls I'm like, what kind of
message am I sending you as a mentor what values
are you starting to like build yourself upon that you
(03:19):
need to be belittled and ripped apart in order to
find your value and in order to be motivated.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I find that it's also the style that we both
know because when I went to Boston University, I was
coached by Brian Durocher, and he would show a tremendous
amount of empathy when we lost, and it wasn't always
I'm so sorry, I understand how it stinks to lose
like It was never that, but it was always if
the goalie on the other side is going to make
(03:47):
fifty eight saves, I will be in her corner clapping
for her. She's doing her job. It's our job to
beat her at that job. But if I can't, or
if we cannot, we're gonna celebrate them. And that tremendous
amount of sportsmanship taught me more about real life than
ever getting yelled in my face saying that I was uncoachable,
(04:08):
that I played like crap, that I could have done this,
that I could have done that. Just the empathetic coaching
perspective of Madison you're here, you could be here. Let
me show you the pathway, Let me coach you, Let
me guide you instead of are you an idiot? Are
you stupid? You're terrible? Who wants to improve under that
(04:30):
you know, tyrannical coaching structure?
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Not me? Yeah, And like a player makes a bad
play on the bench, like and you pointed it out.
I got frustrated a play that was made and you're like, peck,
they can hear you, And I'm like yeah, Like sometimes
it like your passion is hard, the self control. Yeah,
you're competitive and it's hard. But on a human level,
people know when they make a mistake. Yes, like you miss.
I had a kid that over the weekend missed a
(04:54):
wide open net. She hasn't been able to score, like
she's been on herself. She goes down to the bench.
She knows she missed when she got back to the bench. Right,
we don't need people to be like, dude, you had
a wide open net, Like yeah, she knows, you know,
Like someone takes a stupid penalty, they know. And I
didn't realize the importance of it until I played for
coach Johnson, like growing up, right, I played for I
(05:14):
played for a lot of great coaches. Earl Size was
a great coach who never yelled. Dennis Boomer was a yeller.
I played for this guy, Mike Frank. He used to
make us hold the push up position and would like
I mean, he was like an ex marine. I played
for a lot of yellers and a lot of really
intense people. Then I played for coach Johnson and it
was a very different vibe. And I think then I
went and played for you know, I played for Evo.
I played for Venla. I thought Venla was a phenomenal
(05:37):
coach and she still is, obviously she's at Harvard, but
when I was playing for her, she was. She's one
of my favorite coaches of all time. And I remember
after a game where I wasn't playing great, Evo pulled me.
Evo was the coach of the metropolit Riventers at the time,
and he pulled me like out in the hallway and
screamed in my face. And I was like so taken
(05:57):
aback because it had been so long since I and
talked to like that by a coach. And then ben
La checked that. You know, then I follow it up
and check them with Venla, and I'm like I'm doing
the best I can with like what you know, Like
we talked on a human level, and I think that
that's the part that is so missed. Like behind every
great athlete everywhere is a coach who heavily invested in them.
For a number of people, it's a number of coaches.
(06:19):
All that to say, like, you can motivate and believe
in someone and push them without having to break them
and make them like entirely dependent on you for self
esteem and confidence, Like your job is to help the
athlete find that and figure that out on their own,
so that when they're in the middle of a game
in panicking, like they have that to go back to,
not I need someone to yell at me to get
(06:40):
me going.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
The thing that is on top of all of this,
the most important lesson that anybody has ever taught me,
is that your voice goes a lot further when it's
hard to hear. Your children, your athletes, your employees will
listen to you more in a whisper than a yell,
because a yell goes to a different part of the brain.
When you you really want compliance, or when you really
(07:02):
want a message to be delivered, you lower your voice.
You make it hard to hear. You make it a
lean in conversation. And I'll give a prime example. This weekend,
this past weekend, or this two weekends ago. We were
at a tournament and we had an athlete that came
onto the D side of the bench. She was completely
between her own ears. She wasn't playing well and she
(07:24):
was mad. And so I walked up, tapped her on
the shoulder and I said, are you okay? I did
a check in. I didn't say cut it out. I
said are you okay? And in that moment, she gave
me a very snappy answer. It was tough. It was
a tough engagement. Whatever we get back off the locker room,
game is over. And I said, listen to me. If
(07:45):
I yelled at her in that moment, it would have
been two people yelling. In the second moment, I said,
I'm always going to check in, I'm always going to care.
I'm here for you, But if you talk to another
coach like that again, it's not going to go the
way you want. I'm going to give you all the
grace and empathy, but that's not a way that we're
(08:06):
going to speak to each other. And I can promise
you that message landed far more concisely, far more impactfully
than had I chewed her when she was already at
the peak of her ability to process new information. And
that's what we have to do with these kids. That's
where we have to meet them. Yelling at a teenager
(08:28):
who's already got too much going on, stresses a thousand,
the sports, already whatever. To your point, they probably messed up.
They're probably aware. What are we show? What are we
modeling them? Lower the tone of voice, meet them where
they're at, and give them real guidance and trust, build trust.
And I think that's that's the part about you and
(08:50):
I that works so well because I can see you,
you know, going to a thousand and be like, take
a deep breath, communicate that differently. They're trying. And that's
where I introduced this idea to you of is it
a skill issue or is it a will issue?
Speaker 1 (09:04):
I find myself getting so frustrated when I'm coaching and
not when I'm doing the skills stuff, and it's like, well,
wait a minute, the kids are trying to get better,
and to your point, like the will and the desire
and the want and the work is there. It's just
they haven't had access to the resources to develop those
skills to this point, so you can't ask them to
do what they cannot yet do, right. So that yeah,
(09:26):
I mean that went a super long way with me
and just helping me understand how to better communicate. You
and I both like we approach parenting in a very
similar way. I wish that I had known so much
more as a kid than I did, and like had
someone who I felt like, okay, like they get it,
but they also I have my best interest in mine.
(09:49):
I mean, like being a kid. Now we've talked about
it is impossible, right, Their access to social media, the
things that you know, the things that some of my
kids tell me that they're going through, I'm like, oh
my god. And then you compound that with what's going
on in the world, and then you compound that with
it's all at the tip of their fingers every second
of the day. And like, and I love the kids
that I coach. You do too. I mean, you came
(10:09):
out twice and you're like, I'm all in, I need
a sweatsuit.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
I love my sweatsuit.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
So like the drive for me is it's a great
bonus if I can get these girls into college, and
that's what they want. That's their dream, and my goal
and my job is to help them achieve that. But
more than that, like it's just to hopefully help make
their life a little easier and a little like like
kids take everything so far and so deep now, you know,
So we'll talk more about the coaching. When we talk
(10:35):
about coaching.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yeah, we'll get it, we'll get into it. But I
think the hot take of it's just right. We go
through all these conversations. It's the same thing when you
yell at your kids. We're not getting the message across
any better when we act completely erratically, and so much
of coaching, parenting, all of this is this emotional, erratic response.
(10:58):
So I'm happy that we've gotten through it. I really
I love coaching. I love shaping the minds. But I
think that's a great hot take. Stop yelling at people.
It's not getting us any closer. Lower your voice, have
a conversation. Why don't we check in instead of scream? Like?
Speaker 1 (11:16):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Actually, why don't we check in? I think that's perfect.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
I see what you did there, I see like that. Okay,
all right, well where are you at? Hit me with it?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
I one hundred. I just felt like I had to
give you a number.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Eth there, I feel really good.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Actually, I'm traveling right now. So I'm in Orlando. I'm
at a work conference. We're very remote. Usually we're just
two rooms away. Now we're like whole states away. We're
a flight away. But I'm here, and I love that
we're on the topic of coaching because I'm coaching my
sales team. Here we are kicking. But the conference is amazing.
I'm having a ton of fun. I really love this
(11:56):
boiler room style engagement when I can finally be with
everybody together. So I think I'm at a ninety. I
had a long leadership dinner last night, which took me
down a little bit. But like I woke up in
the morning, I went to the gym. The show floor
is buzzing, so all things are great in my world.
I'm at a ninety. I'm sure the story is different
because you're single, mommy, So how are you doing?
Speaker 1 (12:19):
You buckle up, you are about to be shocked. Go ahead.
For the first time in the history of the show,
I am a crisp one hundred.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Oh my goodness, I love that. Why, yes, well that's
the truth.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
So the kids are an absolute nightmare and they did
not go to bed on time. Last night. They were
running around in my bed, like from their rooms to
our room. Whatever. I'm like, I don't care.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
It's kind of fun.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
I do not care. I need to get stuff done. So,
speaking of coaching, because the kids played poorly and literally
wasted everyone's time with those games on Saturday, I told
them that they needed to come to my house at
one pm on Sunday work clothes and not to be late.
So I had twenty athletic teenagers at my house yesterday
(13:07):
and they worked in four groups for thirty minute stations,
and they did yard work and cleaned our shed and
cleaned our house and cleaned our attic and put away
our furniture. Our house is completely winterized, completely spotless. I'm
gonna after this. I'm gonna do a little work, get
my practice plans done for the week. I'm gonna go
(13:28):
do a private lesson. I'm going to pick the kids up,
let them play at the playground. I'm going to go
out to dinner. I'm going to come home. They're going
to go right to the shower, They're going to get
in my bed. I'm going to put them to bed,
and then I'm gonna be in bed in a perfectly
clean house by eight thirty pm.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
I I could.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Not even if that doesn't happen. Something along those lines
is happening.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Similar things are happening in my wa I.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Could not be more happy about it. Do you know what,
got a little workout in this morning? I love that?
Getting ready for my big tilt coming up.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
We need to talk about your bank fraily down. But
I do think that there's a there's a real piece
of family in our team. I think that you lead that.
I always find that you create like a really nice
sense of family wherever we go, whether it's you know,
with the Riveters or with the Sirens, or now as
a coach or in any kind of capacity, because I've
learned this most from you. But and someone once said
(14:23):
to us, if you guys, if you guys have it,
we all have it. And I love that capability of
our family is like our house like yes, twenty sixteen
year olds twenty nineteen year olds is an intense hosting experience,
but you're like, come over, it's our house. Like you
can come in. I'll treat you like family. We got
stuff to do around the house, buckle up, and let's
(14:43):
get ready. And so I kind of love that. And
I love that that's like our new family dynamic mostly
introduced by you, but like choosing four groups, mixing people up,
having them work on a problem that's atypical to other
I love it. That's socially.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Girls had never chopped one before. I mean, like they did.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
It started as a punishment and it turned into something.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
It was a punishment and they were like, and the
girls had like music going, and at one point they
were dancing. I'm like, are you guys enjoying this? They're like,
kind of So they sent a message in the group chat,
and I was like, I can't even be mad that
you guys enjoyed it, because like that is everything, right.
That shows your response to the situation is everything you
can't You didn't You had no control over what you
were going to have to do. They thought that they
were gonna be They thought they were gonna have to run.
(15:25):
I'm like, wow, would I.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
That doesn't get us closer to the goal.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
They enjoyed learning how to chop wood. They cleared all
the wood out of the backyard, They moved all the
furniture in. They burned a bunch of stuff that we
needed to get rid of. They got rid of our carpets,
I mean, like MVPs are creepy, conjuring attic was cleared out.
One of the kids went up there and she was like, Uh, Coach,
I don't really what up there.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
I'm afraid you know what.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
So I'm glad that you're at one hundred. I'm at
a ninety. Together, we're combining for a really good number.
I think it's like we've done a better job connecting
even though we're separated right now. So in all and all.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Happy relationships.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
A picture, Oh yeah, space, I was gonna say a
picture of the morning with my outfit, so that you
picture how cute I am. We're going to get into
the next section. Obviously we're gonna take a little ad break,
but I want to get into maybe some more about
coaching styles that work, things that we identify. We'll kind
of name them a little bit, we'll put some more
context around it. I really want to talk about a
coach that did a lot for me, so we'll get
(16:23):
into that right after the break. Okay, back, let's get
back to it. We talked a little bit about coaching
maybe what not to do, and I think one of
my favorite things to do is talk about coaches that
maybe have impact the best ways that we see coaching working.
(16:46):
I think a big piece that we have to address
in women's hockey specifically is a lack of funding. Is
a lack of support, is a lack of getting girls
access to people that look and feel like with experiences
that they similarly have. Also because it's just hard to do.
(17:06):
But I will say the Dungaree coach, right, and I
guess Hungarys and Massachusetts were, But like the Denham coach,
the dad with Denham that's out on the ice that
really doesn't know what he's talking about, that maybe is
watch hockey a bunch or played forty years ago, that
is now the person that we're taking advice from can
get bary tiresome very quickly. We have a funny story
about the Denham coach. We have a friend, a friend
(17:29):
of all of ours, and Trazuiro, who could quite possibly
be down in history as one of the best defenders
of women's hockey history, is the coach to her kids
hockey team alongside four other Denham coaches. Right, dudes that
just I don't know played at some point in their life.
And she was venting to us about a game where
the denom dads took over the bench and there was
(17:50):
really no room. So they looked at Ange and said,
you should stand there next to the bench, outside of
the bench, not with the team that is taking an
absolute ace and relegating them to the outside. I don't
even understand.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
I couldn't.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
The three of us literally couldn't stop laughing. But I
start and end my main point with I think a
huge problem is just not investing in the resources that
young female athletes need to learn from people that have
actually experienced even college hockey in any capacity in the
women's game, which now is a humongously growing number of women.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
And I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
I will go back to the fact that I don't
think that they compensate anybody. Right, We're charging kids eight
to ten to twenty thousand dollars a year to be
on these teams. I remember when I was playing pro,
they'd be like, you can get five grand to coach
this team. I'm like, where's the profit margin here that
that's the most we can invest in these kids coach?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
I don't know. I think that two things. One pushback
on that a little bit, I guess for the sake
of entertainment to disagree private lessons are very lucrative, right, yeah,
And then also coaching coaching my philosophy is right, Like
I really enjoyed the private lesson thing, and I didn't
realize how lucrative it is until I've been doing it
so frequently. Like, that's a really fun way to stay involved.
(19:14):
It's a great way to make money. There's a mentoring
opportunity there, et cetera. But every player who's playing now,
who grew who went up through the ranks, like you
played for a coach who it's essentially community service.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Yeah, I mean I totally get that side. I think
my perspective is more from the like Triple A Majors
teams that have all of these resources in cash for
their boys teams and then don't allocate them for their
women's team. And actually, let me stay in that point
for a second, because I said this to our girls.
I brought everybody in the locker room and I said,
people would die for the opportunity to be coached by you,
(19:48):
by me, have the gym, have the shooting, have the training,
have the tape, have the training table, the meals, right, Like,
people are doing everything they can for this opportunity and
they can't have it. And that's from my perspective of
somebody who always wanted that and could never afford it
when I was younger. And so if I think there,
that's what I think the problem is if I go
(20:09):
away from that and I go to the ange Rogueiro
Denim Dad's conversation, Right, that's youth sports, and that you're right,
isn't about compensation. That's about care. And that's where I
find the biggest stop gap between feeling like you can
get women in and then just a happens to be
(20:29):
the parent of a child on those teams. What are
we missing like going to colleges, making relationships, engaging with
those kids, finding ways to get your local state college,
whatever team to be involved in your youth program, and
then making them invest in a care community service hours.
Like how are we bridging that gap? Because right now
(20:50):
we're not, are we?
Speaker 1 (20:51):
And I think that that's like the mentoring thing is
hugely important, Like we used to be that you had
the option when I was at Wisconsin. I don't know
if it's if it's changed, but I think it should
be required of every student athlete to do community service
like we could do. We did children's hospital visits and
Ronald McDonald house and soup kitchen and like everything right,
(21:12):
but then there was also like you could we would
go to elementary schools and read to kids. I think
that should be a requirement of all athletic programs because
one you identify within yourself if you enjoy coaching. Everyone
has the opportunity to go back to their community and
coach in some capacity, and so you learn that about
(21:33):
yourself through some of these programs where you're engaging with kids,
even if it's not the sport. And then all of
a sudden, we have within all of these communities, many
of which are low income or high risk et cetera,
et cetera. You create role models within those communities who
these kids see coming back to give back, and the
cycle continues. Like coaching is such an easy and implant
(21:59):
way to build community. Well, yeah, fulfilling for the coach,
but I'm saying I'm saying to build like I say
it all the time. Within the definition of sport is
the word community and a coach's job is to create
a community within a community, create leaders, create mentors, create
a cycle where people right like you see these towns
(22:20):
where coaches, there's generations of people coaching high school teams
or coaches. That's like the everything. Like, imagine if if
more people took that kind of pride in their in
their small town team.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yes, And then I think about it from somebody that
employs people. And when someone can come to me in
an interview with a passion outside of sales, that is
something that they have done to make a difference. What
a differentiator. And I hate to use difference in two
different terms there, but what a differentiator from a perspective
of showing me, Yes, I went to college, I played
(22:55):
X y Z sport, and here is the difference that
I used with them that experience to make in this
small impact or in this large impact. I remember the
first time I talked about mental health. I had so
many teams for Massachusetts because I was a Massachusetts kid,
I was playing pro hockey. I was really talking about
mental health all the time. And I had four or
(23:17):
five six different teams have a mental health game in
their high school. And I remember being like, oh my goodness,
my words have scale. My scale can change lives, and
that is why I'm going to make myself painfully uncomfortable
to talk about all of the worst parts of my
life that I've had to endure. I just showed up
more all the time because I wanted to have that scale.
(23:40):
I could talk right now for hours with any executive
about the work that I've done outside of my workplace,
outside of the ice. Has nothing to do with my stats,
but that made a real difference. And I think that
people don't feel that level of fulfillment because they go, oh,
I don't want to coach XYZ youth team, but why not.
That's where I think women's sports are underinvested because we
(24:03):
don't do a good enough job. Because women are impaths.
That's why we're amazing. That's what makes women better in
every way we care. And so by not inviting women
into spaces that they will inevitably care about, we are
creating spaces where the denim dads take over the bench
and these girls don't see it, and it makes a
(24:25):
humongous impact. I have a coach that I want to
talk about, but before I do, do you have anything
to say on that?
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Yeah, I just want to I was thinking the same
thing as you were talking, like the emphasis that we
need to place on it's not about creating roles for women.
Like women play women's sports, men play men's sports. Those
are our avenues forward to play at the professional level, right,
But like our brains don't operate at a slower pace.
(25:04):
I mean in many cases, it's actually the opposite. It's
why you see high hockey IQs on the women's side
because we play growing up with the boys. You play
getting hit and you have to think faster than them.
So this notion and idea, at least in hockey, but
even in every other sport, I would argue that women
have to think faster because men typically are moving faster.
So you know, in any competitive like team contact, passing, whatever,
(25:30):
you have to think at the same pace or faster
than those around you if you don't want to get caught, hit,
et cetera. So it's why you see success from women
in coaching men's hockey. There are a lot of them
out there. Jess Campbell is the only one currently at
the NHL level, but there are tons of incredible, brilliant
women working within the NHL. Well, you had successful, accomplished careers.
(25:53):
And also, you don't have to be a great player
to be a great coach. You could be I mean,
Wayne Gretzky was not a great coach. He's a great
analyst kind of, but he's not like he's entertaining, right,
but he wasn't a great coach, admitted itself. A really
my thing always is at the youth level, they're two
different conversations, right, obviously, But at the youth level, you
(26:13):
walk into these rooms, especially in hockey, and it's just
a bunch of salt and pepper men, and I'm like,
they all want to give their opinion on what's best
for the girls. And I was at a meeting one
time and I'm like, I'm like, can I just ask
a question, a clarifying question. Since we're talking about what's
best for the girls, how many of you have ever
been a fifteen year old girl? Yeah? And they're all
like duh. I'm like, so, don't we think that we
(26:36):
should maybe give a moment to the women in the
room to share what they think might be if they're
like developmental interest or the kids might find interesting, like
the perspective of the voice being heard needs to be
different for people, Like some people respond better to women,
some people respond better to men. But just your outlook
on life, your life experiences, what's important, resources block everything.
(27:00):
To not have a mix of both at the table,
it's crazy.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
And I think that that's the part. Like if you
look at Christy Tolliver in now the WNBA, but was
in the NBA, Becky Hammond, right like we see it
in the in basketball a lot because the x's and
o's for the most part are pretty similar, right Like,
there's like the same kind of foundational all that to say,
those operational foundational for the opportunities said foundational roundationally speaking,
(27:29):
there's a problem when we look at how we view women.
If we're saying in youth sports, let's have like minded
voices speak in pro sports, that can change, right, But
going through puberty, putting on your gear, having your period
for your first time, you know, all these things, looking
(27:50):
too muscular, being called a name, like all of these
things don't impact these men the same way. Or this
is where I want to talk about this coach. I
had a coach in high school. He was the assistant coach.
He came in my junior year. His name was Todd Fletcher.
He was young. He just came off of I mean
(28:11):
he was a public school teacher, so he had a
master like. He was young. I'm gonna stick with you.
Was young. Our head coach was a very old, extremely
heavy set white man. Todd was a young former player
that played D one hockey for UMass Lowell. And he
came in and he looked at the entire team and
(28:31):
I said, Todd, I want to play D one hockey.
I want this opportunity. Tell me everything you can, give me,
all of your best advice. He looked at me, he
sat me down, and he gave me extremely tangible practical information.
At that point in time, now thirteen years ago, there
weren't women that were coming out that were there in
(28:51):
front of me. But when you look at the two examples,
I had a man that just played and a guy
that was sixty six. I can promise you when the
sixty six year old man told me I was completely
uncoachable and I had no future in hockey and I
wasn't going to be a captain of my team, and
a thirty year old dude who just played that said,
(29:12):
these are all the things you have to do, These
are all the ways that you're going to get there.
This is all the things I'm gonna do. Who am
I going to listen to? My life was changed because
I had Todd Fletcher in my life, Like nothing about
what I'm sitting here doing today would be the same
if Todd never entered my life. Now, imagine that's Madison Packer,
Anya Packer, Casey Anderson x y Z athlete, like we
(29:36):
can be those people.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
I want to dig in on that because I want
to understand so and I guess I should clarify my point,
but I'll tell a similar story about a coach who
was a sixty year old man, Earl Size, and I
got I had a spot on a team. They told
me I had a spot, went on vacation. They cut
me while I was gone because they whatever it was
(29:58):
because I was a girl. And then Earl coach Ural
called my dad and said, Madison's always got a spot
to play. And he literally created space on his team
for me to play and train until I could find
a better team to play on. And like he his
rule of thumb always was, as long as I'm involved
in hockey, Madison has a place to play. And that
(30:20):
was a really pivotal time in my Like that was
my I was thirteen, I was going into high school,
Like it was a pivotal year. I mean, imagine not
playing hockey.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
For a whole hour at that point, like I can't.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
And all of that to say, I think that the
point that is being made is that we didn't know
any different, and I will forever be grateful to coach Ural.
But I was also the only girl, constantly called names,
constantly bullied kids. One time I had teammates p and
my hockey bag, like I was the only girl always
(30:51):
in the rink. And now you've got girls teams, You've
got that there's more opportunity that exists for women to
be involved. Sixty year old men with a wealth of
hockey knowledge are fine, They're great. Mark Johnson is one
of the greatest coaches of all time. The job needs
to go to the most qualified person. But the argument
that there aren't a plethora of qualified women out there
(31:11):
to get involved and give back and be as qualified,
if not more qualified than men currently doing the job,
specifically at the women's level youth hockey and professionally, I
think is crazy.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
I don't disagree that's we have two different six year
old white men know in these stories mine is.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
That's my point. That just was my point, because it's
nothing against the men. It's just that in some cases
that's not the best person for the job, even if
they've been there for forever.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Right, That's what I'm saying is and my todd could
be insert any female athlete now, but at that point
in time, it was somebody who had real tangible experience
with the goal I was trying to achieve. And because
that voice was somebody that I could resonate with, that
was some that gave me belief, that gave me. He
(32:02):
gave me an inch and I turned it into one
hundred miles. That is so important because he had the
courage to say the opposite of the you know, head
coach in that perspective, Yes I believe in you, Yes
you're coachable. Don't internalize this, do internalize that, right, all
these like motivating things. He never yelled. He was always
(32:23):
there to hear me out. He watched my you know,
we used to clip together these highlight videos, which there
were no highlights. I can promise you that. But he
gave me time, He invested in me, and I think
that That's what I'm trying to say about women is
I think the general the kind of ground floor of
a female coach. They've got nothing but time and empathy
(32:47):
for your feelings, for what you're going through, for your
lived experience, and you will be a better human being
for contributing that time to somebody younger than you and
receiving it as a kid. And that is really important
to me. That's important to me as a former athlete
to be able to give that time. Then the other day,
the girls are working out in the gym, and I
(33:09):
work out in the gym right down the hallway, and
I said, I'm gonna go work out in the gym
that they're working out in. One they're gonna see me
at thirty three years old and what it looks like
to work out as me, and that hopefully they're gonna
be like, you know, let's let's go kick it up
a notch because I am a psychopath in the gym.
But also, they're gonna see a woman right now. They
(33:30):
don't right besides you and I, there's a lot of
men in the room, and that's not always the same.
And a lift for a sixteen year old boy is
different than a lift for a sixteen year old girl.
And if you've never been a sixteen year old girl,
you don't know that. The amount of research that we
have on athletic performance that has to do with exclusively men,
(33:54):
it's over ninety percent, and that other ten percent isn't
dedicated to women. It's general. There's such a tiny, tiny,
tiny piece of the pie that's even contributed to understanding
how the female body works. Let alone, is that being
wed by a trainer in southern Connecticut. Probably not.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Another big part of it is, like, you know, I
work with Bob Crawford. I love the man. He's like
love it like another dad. Like he's a great, great guy,
very accomplished player, many years in the NHL, great coaching style.
Him and I get along great. We have very different
relationships with the kids. And one of the players said
it to me the other day. She was like, we're
(34:39):
just closer with you, and I was like, I was like,
what do you mean by that? And she goes, you know,
like we have a bond, and I mean, I've known
these kids for five weeks. And it made me feel
really good that she said that, But also it just
clicked for me that like that's for some of these kids,
(34:59):
that's all they need, right, Like I mean seriously, that
has been my biggest motivator when I got involved with
this program. I didn't want to over commit because I
knew I had other things going on, and I didn't
want to disappoint the kids. However, like I lose sleep
at night over over some of these kids because I
feel so badly. I just couldn't imagine being a kid
(35:21):
with some of the pressure that they have and the
social media and hearing what some of my kids go through.
And I think that that is a huge, huge driver.
Is that for whatever reason, a number of the male
coaches that I've spoken to are like, well, I don't
want to make them cry, Like they don't they don't
know how really to interact, right because girl women or
girls cry and they're like, oh, well, I feel badly.
(35:43):
I feel like they can't push them too hard. But
then they're you know, a different kind of negative and
it's just like there's not that like that emotional connection, right,
and there's not that same ability to recognize Like I've
had kids that cry on the bench all the time,
and I'll be talking to them and ignore completely the
fact that they're crying, right, and like like that's okay,
(36:05):
And like teaching these young girls who are going to
become women that like speak up for your feelings, communicate
how you feel. Like like the question that I get
most often what can I do better? I don't answer
that question anymore because it's it's it's a ridiculous question
everything anything. You can always be better at everything you do,
So really ask me the question that you really want
to ask. And I had a kid one time saying,
(36:26):
what do you mean? So when you say what can
I do better?
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Yeah, what do you want?
Speaker 1 (36:30):
The purpose of that? Are you asking what you can
do better? So you can make good videos of yourself?
Like is it so that you can get more playing time?
Why do you want to be better?
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Well?
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Yeah, I want more playing time? So then what can
I do to earn more opportunity? What can I do
to earn more ice time? Because like, I don't give it, right,
you earn it. And the kids started their minds started
to shift and they apply that Like that's what I
was going to say, say them things through sport that
apply to life, because you're you're a human. Long after
you're done being an athlete.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Right, And that's the part, that's the part and power
that I think the empathetic element of women have for
young girls. And we talk about this all the time,
and I could go into my humongous speech, but the
way you treat a college male athlete with the onset
of the NHL is different than the way you treat
a female athlete with the onset of at least when
(37:19):
we were in school, nothing or a low level job
that at Max is paying you one hundred grand when
a Max NHL contract is in the millions. You can't
give them the same advice. You can't say to a
female athlete who cares about your grades because you can
go to the PWHL. You can't do that. You have
to arm her with the skills and tools to have
(37:41):
a long life because she doesn't have a fat stack
of cash to go retire on and open up a
foundation and do that. That's not in the cards. So
I love everything you have.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Full circle back to the yelling, yeah right, like that's
all full Like I'm not And that's what I said
to the kids in the kitchen yesterday. I'm not going
to scream at you and brate you and belittle you
to motivate you, because I'm then teaching a whole generation
of women that you need to be broken down and
shown how wrong and bad you are in order to
find the motivation, yeah, to do better. And that's just wrong,
(38:16):
and like we deserve.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Better, right, And if we could all communicate a little
bit more clearly and a little bit more empathetically, what
a better world? And I think that is the actual
responsibility of coaches. Yes we care about placements, Yes we
care about colleges, we talk to the scouts, we do
all the things. But if we bring twenty better human
beings into the next stage of their life than as
(38:38):
coaches we have succeeded. We can be proud. We can
continue on, we can continue to recruit, we can do
all the things. Knowing that people are better after experiencing
us versus scared. Being afraid gets you nothing. So I
love the conversation around coaching. I think it's incredibly timely.
(38:58):
I've enjoyed welcoming twenty kids into our stratosphere. While it
can be laborious, it certainly is important. So thank you
for the conversation, coach.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
She'll love the grocery bill.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Yeah, coach, jeez, how many chicken breasts do we need
when these kids come over? It's insane, but good work, coach.
I'm proud of you. Well, I think that's enough. I
feel like we've covered all the bases, so thank you
so much. I look forward to everybody tuning in next
time on These Packs Buck.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
That's it for this week.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Thanks for listening, and if you like what you heard,
spread the word seriously right now, take your phone out,
text a friend and tell them to subscribe.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
And be sure to rate and review us on Apple
Podcasts and Spotify if you haven't already. It really really helps.
Until next week. I'm Madison Packer and.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
I'm on your Packer, and this was These Packs Puck.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
These Packs Puck is a production of Iheartwomen's Sports and
Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. It's hosted by us Madison
and on You Packer. Emily Mayer is our senior producer
and story editor. We were mixed and mastered by Mary dew.
Our executive producers are Jennifer Bassett, Jesse Katz, and Ally
Perry
Hi everyone, Welcome to these packs puck. I'm Madison Packer.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
And I'm Anya Packer. Madison and I are both former
pro hockey players. We met through hockey and fell in love,
and now we're married with two awesome toddlers, ages two
and four.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
These days, we're opening up about the chaos of our
daily lives, between the juggle of being athletes, raising kids.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
And all the messiness in between. So buckle the puck
up because there is a lot to talk about. Hello, Anya,
Hi pack how you doing.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Wait, this is the first time I'm seeing you today
and you look so cute. Thank you yellow blush on
your nose.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I know, I feel like i'm a little over blushed.
To be fair, You're like, good babe, thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I was trying before we started to show the producers
our friendship Bracelet. I'm the most who Clancy, and I'm
Pooh and yes, as a grown adult Pooh Bear. I
mean hum, I bought these as a grown adult and
I thought of you when I saw them. Yeah, I
love that.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I did my blush for Piglet today.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Exciting nugget of the day. You go, well, I'm excited
for this episode.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I was going to say, this is your new passion,
I mean, not your new passion, but it's like your
passion projects. So, without further ado, what's your hockey hot take?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Hockey hot take? Preface this with I'm currently coaching, slash
mentoring the CJR kind of Kitchenia Rangers nineteen you girls
shout out to them, and Anya is also helping and mentoring,
and I got involved just like I was going to
do their skills and mentor and help out as much
as I could, but pursuing the broadcasting thing, I didn't
(01:38):
want to over commit. Then like ten days before the
season started, their coach quit, which like who does that? Yeah? Kids,
But I was just righting the skills and then doing
meetings with them and like life skills and like life
mentoring meetings, and I'm like, I really like these kids.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
You've got the it.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Long story short, I'm roped in. Yeah, I'm roped in.
And it works well with like call times and stuff
for broadcasting. But we never see each other, which is
why I said you look great, because I feel like
it's been like months. But my kids over the weekend
played really, really really poorly, and they know that they did,
and they're like coach, you need to get mad at us.
(02:15):
So my hockey hot take is we should not have
to yell and brate and belittle our athletes, students, et cetera, kids,
whatever it might be, in order to motivate them. And
I feel super passionately about that. And I said that
at a coaching conference that I was at over the summer.
I spoke at a coaching conference and there was a
gentleman there from the Chicago Steel and he's like, you know,
(02:37):
we get these guys and we just we break them.
So I'm listening to him talk and he's just like,
you know, we have to completely break them and show
them what, you know, how much they can handle. And
then I got up next and I'm like, I could
not disagree more. And I don't not that he's not
a super successful individual shade, but what kind of message
does it send? I feel, especially to young women. And
(02:58):
this is what I said to my kids yesterday. You
want me to motivate you, I can do that. But
Mark Johnson I never he never yelled in this in
the six five six years that I played with him
across different teams, Like you just knew. Yeah. And so
I said to the girls I'm like, what kind of
message am I sending you as a mentor what values
are you starting to like build yourself upon that you
(03:19):
need to be belittled and ripped apart in order to
find your value and in order to be motivated.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I find that it's also the style that we both
know because when I went to Boston University, I was
coached by Brian Durocher, and he would show a tremendous
amount of empathy when we lost, and it wasn't always
I'm so sorry, I understand how it stinks to lose
like It was never that, but it was always if
the goalie on the other side is going to make
(03:47):
fifty eight saves, I will be in her corner clapping
for her. She's doing her job. It's our job to
beat her at that job. But if I can't, or
if we cannot, we're gonna celebrate them. And that tremendous
amount of sportsmanship taught me more about real life than
ever getting yelled in my face saying that I was uncoachable,
(04:08):
that I played like crap, that I could have done this,
that I could have done that. Just the empathetic coaching
perspective of Madison you're here, you could be here. Let
me show you the pathway, Let me coach you, Let
me guide you instead of are you an idiot? Are
you stupid? You're terrible? Who wants to improve under that
(04:30):
you know, tyrannical coaching structure?
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Not me? Yeah, And like a player makes a bad
play on the bench, like and you pointed it out.
I got frustrated a play that was made and you're like, peck,
they can hear you, And I'm like yeah, Like sometimes
it like your passion is hard, the self control. Yeah,
you're competitive and it's hard. But on a human level,
people know when they make a mistake. Yes, like you miss.
I had a kid that over the weekend missed a
(04:54):
wide open net. She hasn't been able to score, like
she's been on herself. She goes down to the bench.
She knows she missed when she got back to the bench. Right,
we don't need people to be like, dude, you had
a wide open net, Like yeah, she knows, you know,
Like someone takes a stupid penalty, they know. And I
didn't realize the importance of it until I played for
coach Johnson, like growing up, right, I played for I
(05:14):
played for a lot of great coaches. Earl Size was
a great coach who never yelled. Dennis Boomer was a yeller.
I played for this guy, Mike Frank. He used to
make us hold the push up position and would like
I mean, he was like an ex marine. I played
for a lot of yellers and a lot of really
intense people. Then I played for coach Johnson and it
was a very different vibe. And I think then I
went and played for you know, I played for Evo.
I played for Venla. I thought Venla was a phenomenal
(05:37):
coach and she still is, obviously she's at Harvard, but
when I was playing for her, she was. She's one
of my favorite coaches of all time. And I remember
after a game where I wasn't playing great, Evo pulled me.
Evo was the coach of the metropolit Riventers at the time,
and he pulled me like out in the hallway and
screamed in my face. And I was like so taken
(05:57):
aback because it had been so long since I and
talked to like that by a coach. And then ben
La checked that. You know, then I follow it up
and check them with Venla, and I'm like I'm doing
the best I can with like what you know, Like
we talked on a human level, and I think that
that's the part that is so missed. Like behind every
great athlete everywhere is a coach who heavily invested in them.
For a number of people, it's a number of coaches.
(06:19):
All that to say, like, you can motivate and believe
in someone and push them without having to break them
and make them like entirely dependent on you for self
esteem and confidence, Like your job is to help the
athlete find that and figure that out on their own,
so that when they're in the middle of a game
in panicking, like they have that to go back to,
not I need someone to yell at me to get
(06:40):
me going.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
The thing that is on top of all of this,
the most important lesson that anybody has ever taught me,
is that your voice goes a lot further when it's
hard to hear. Your children, your athletes, your employees will
listen to you more in a whisper than a yell,
because a yell goes to a different part of the brain.
When you you really want compliance, or when you really
(07:02):
want a message to be delivered, you lower your voice.
You make it hard to hear. You make it a
lean in conversation. And I'll give a prime example. This weekend,
this past weekend, or this two weekends ago. We were
at a tournament and we had an athlete that came
onto the D side of the bench. She was completely
between her own ears. She wasn't playing well and she
(07:24):
was mad. And so I walked up, tapped her on
the shoulder and I said, are you okay? I did
a check in. I didn't say cut it out. I
said are you okay? And in that moment, she gave
me a very snappy answer. It was tough. It was
a tough engagement. Whatever we get back off the locker room,
game is over. And I said, listen to me. If
(07:45):
I yelled at her in that moment, it would have
been two people yelling. In the second moment, I said,
I'm always going to check in, I'm always going to care.
I'm here for you, But if you talk to another
coach like that again, it's not going to go the
way you want. I'm going to give you all the
grace and empathy, but that's not a way that we're
(08:06):
going to speak to each other. And I can promise
you that message landed far more concisely, far more impactfully
than had I chewed her when she was already at
the peak of her ability to process new information. And
that's what we have to do with these kids. That's
where we have to meet them. Yelling at a teenager
(08:28):
who's already got too much going on, stresses a thousand,
the sports, already whatever. To your point, they probably messed up.
They're probably aware. What are we show? What are we
modeling them? Lower the tone of voice, meet them where
they're at, and give them real guidance and trust, build trust.
And I think that's that's the part about you and
(08:50):
I that works so well because I can see you,
you know, going to a thousand and be like, take
a deep breath, communicate that differently. They're trying. And that's
where I introduced this idea to you of is it
a skill issue or is it a will issue?
Speaker 1 (09:04):
I find myself getting so frustrated when I'm coaching and
not when I'm doing the skills stuff, and it's like, well,
wait a minute, the kids are trying to get better,
and to your point, like the will and the desire
and the want and the work is there. It's just
they haven't had access to the resources to develop those
skills to this point, so you can't ask them to
do what they cannot yet do, right. So that yeah,
(09:26):
I mean that went a super long way with me
and just helping me understand how to better communicate. You
and I both like we approach parenting in a very
similar way. I wish that I had known so much
more as a kid than I did, and like had
someone who I felt like, okay, like they get it,
but they also I have my best interest in mine.
(09:49):
I mean, like being a kid. Now we've talked about
it is impossible, right, Their access to social media, the
things that you know, the things that some of my
kids tell me that they're going through, I'm like, oh
my god. And then you compound that with what's going
on in the world, and then you compound that with
it's all at the tip of their fingers every second
of the day. And like, and I love the kids
that I coach. You do too. I mean, you came
(10:09):
out twice and you're like, I'm all in, I need
a sweatsuit.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
I love my sweatsuit.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
So like the drive for me is it's a great
bonus if I can get these girls into college, and
that's what they want. That's their dream, and my goal
and my job is to help them achieve that. But
more than that, like it's just to hopefully help make
their life a little easier and a little like like
kids take everything so far and so deep now, you know,
So we'll talk more about the coaching. When we talk
(10:35):
about coaching.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yeah, we'll get it, we'll get into it. But I
think the hot take of it's just right. We go
through all these conversations. It's the same thing when you
yell at your kids. We're not getting the message across
any better when we act completely erratically, and so much
of coaching, parenting, all of this is this emotional, erratic response.
(10:58):
So I'm happy that we've gotten through it. I really
I love coaching. I love shaping the minds. But I
think that's a great hot take. Stop yelling at people.
It's not getting us any closer. Lower your voice, have
a conversation. Why don't we check in instead of scream? Like?
Speaker 1 (11:16):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Actually, why don't we check in? I think that's perfect.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
I see what you did there, I see like that. Okay,
all right, well where are you at? Hit me with it?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
I one hundred. I just felt like I had to
give you a number.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Eth there, I feel really good.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Actually, I'm traveling right now. So I'm in Orlando. I'm
at a work conference. We're very remote. Usually we're just
two rooms away. Now we're like whole states away. We're
a flight away. But I'm here, and I love that
we're on the topic of coaching because I'm coaching my
sales team. Here we are kicking. But the conference is amazing.
I'm having a ton of fun. I really love this
(11:56):
boiler room style engagement when I can finally be with
everybody together. So I think I'm at a ninety. I
had a long leadership dinner last night, which took me
down a little bit. But like I woke up in
the morning, I went to the gym. The show floor
is buzzing, so all things are great in my world.
I'm at a ninety. I'm sure the story is different
because you're single, mommy, So how are you doing?
Speaker 1 (12:19):
You buckle up, you are about to be shocked. Go ahead.
For the first time in the history of the show,
I am a crisp one hundred.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Oh my goodness, I love that. Why, yes, well that's
the truth.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
So the kids are an absolute nightmare and they did
not go to bed on time. Last night. They were
running around in my bed, like from their rooms to
our room. Whatever. I'm like, I don't care.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
It's kind of fun.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
I do not care. I need to get stuff done. So,
speaking of coaching, because the kids played poorly and literally
wasted everyone's time with those games on Saturday, I told
them that they needed to come to my house at
one pm on Sunday work clothes and not to be late.
So I had twenty athletic teenagers at my house yesterday
(13:07):
and they worked in four groups for thirty minute stations,
and they did yard work and cleaned our shed and
cleaned our house and cleaned our attic and put away
our furniture. Our house is completely winterized, completely spotless. I'm
gonna after this. I'm gonna do a little work, get
my practice plans done for the week. I'm gonna go
(13:28):
do a private lesson. I'm going to pick the kids up,
let them play at the playground. I'm going to go
out to dinner. I'm going to come home. They're going
to go right to the shower, They're going to get
in my bed. I'm going to put them to bed,
and then I'm gonna be in bed in a perfectly
clean house by eight thirty pm.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
I I could.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Not even if that doesn't happen. Something along those lines
is happening.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Similar things are happening in my wa I.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Could not be more happy about it. Do you know what,
got a little workout in this morning? I love that?
Getting ready for my big tilt coming up.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
We need to talk about your bank fraily down. But
I do think that there's a there's a real piece
of family in our team. I think that you lead that.
I always find that you create like a really nice
sense of family wherever we go, whether it's you know,
with the Riveters or with the Sirens, or now as
a coach or in any kind of capacity, because I've
learned this most from you. But and someone once said
(14:23):
to us, if you guys, if you guys have it,
we all have it. And I love that capability of
our family is like our house like yes, twenty sixteen
year olds twenty nineteen year olds is an intense hosting experience,
but you're like, come over, it's our house. Like you
can come in. I'll treat you like family. We got
stuff to do around the house, buckle up, and let's
(14:43):
get ready. And so I kind of love that. And
I love that that's like our new family dynamic mostly
introduced by you, but like choosing four groups, mixing people up,
having them work on a problem that's atypical to other
I love it. That's socially.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Girls had never chopped one before. I mean, like they did.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
It started as a punishment and it turned into something.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
It was a punishment and they were like, and the
girls had like music going, and at one point they
were dancing. I'm like, are you guys enjoying this? They're like,
kind of So they sent a message in the group chat,
and I was like, I can't even be mad that
you guys enjoyed it, because like that is everything, right.
That shows your response to the situation is everything you
can't You didn't You had no control over what you
were going to have to do. They thought that they
were gonna be They thought they were gonna have to run.
(15:25):
I'm like, wow, would I.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
That doesn't get us closer to the goal.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
They enjoyed learning how to chop wood. They cleared all
the wood out of the backyard, They moved all the
furniture in. They burned a bunch of stuff that we
needed to get rid of. They got rid of our carpets,
I mean, like MVPs are creepy, conjuring attic was cleared out.
One of the kids went up there and she was like, Uh, Coach,
I don't really what up there.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
I'm afraid you know what.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
So I'm glad that you're at one hundred. I'm at
a ninety. Together, we're combining for a really good number.
I think it's like we've done a better job connecting
even though we're separated right now. So in all and all.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Happy relationships.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
A picture, Oh yeah, space, I was gonna say a
picture of the morning with my outfit, so that you
picture how cute I am. We're going to get into
the next section. Obviously we're gonna take a little ad break,
but I want to get into maybe some more about
coaching styles that work, things that we identify. We'll kind
of name them a little bit, we'll put some more
context around it. I really want to talk about a
coach that did a lot for me, so we'll get
(16:23):
into that right after the break. Okay, back, let's get
back to it. We talked a little bit about coaching
maybe what not to do, and I think one of
my favorite things to do is talk about coaches that
maybe have impact the best ways that we see coaching working.
(16:46):
I think a big piece that we have to address
in women's hockey specifically is a lack of funding. Is
a lack of support, is a lack of getting girls
access to people that look and feel like with experiences
that they similarly have. Also because it's just hard to do.
(17:06):
But I will say the Dungaree coach, right, and I
guess Hungarys and Massachusetts were, But like the Denham coach,
the dad with Denham that's out on the ice that
really doesn't know what he's talking about, that maybe is
watch hockey a bunch or played forty years ago, that
is now the person that we're taking advice from can
get bary tiresome very quickly. We have a funny story
about the Denham coach. We have a friend, a friend
(17:29):
of all of ours, and Trazuiro, who could quite possibly
be down in history as one of the best defenders
of women's hockey history, is the coach to her kids
hockey team alongside four other Denham coaches. Right, dudes that
just I don't know played at some point in their life.
And she was venting to us about a game where
the denom dads took over the bench and there was
(17:50):
really no room. So they looked at Ange and said,
you should stand there next to the bench, outside of
the bench, not with the team that is taking an
absolute ace and relegating them to the outside. I don't
even understand.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
I couldn't.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
The three of us literally couldn't stop laughing. But I
start and end my main point with I think a
huge problem is just not investing in the resources that
young female athletes need to learn from people that have
actually experienced even college hockey in any capacity in the
women's game, which now is a humongously growing number of women.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
And I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
I will go back to the fact that I don't
think that they compensate anybody. Right, We're charging kids eight
to ten to twenty thousand dollars a year to be
on these teams. I remember when I was playing pro,
they'd be like, you can get five grand to coach
this team. I'm like, where's the profit margin here that
that's the most we can invest in these kids coach?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
I don't know. I think that two things. One pushback
on that a little bit, I guess for the sake
of entertainment to disagree private lessons are very lucrative, right, yeah,
And then also coaching coaching my philosophy is right, Like
I really enjoyed the private lesson thing, and I didn't
realize how lucrative it is until I've been doing it
so frequently. Like, that's a really fun way to stay involved.
(19:14):
It's a great way to make money. There's a mentoring
opportunity there, et cetera. But every player who's playing now,
who grew who went up through the ranks, like you
played for a coach who it's essentially community service.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Yeah, I mean I totally get that side. I think
my perspective is more from the like Triple A Majors
teams that have all of these resources in cash for
their boys teams and then don't allocate them for their
women's team. And actually, let me stay in that point
for a second, because I said this to our girls.
I brought everybody in the locker room and I said,
people would die for the opportunity to be coached by you,
(19:48):
by me, have the gym, have the shooting, have the training,
have the tape, have the training table, the meals, right, Like,
people are doing everything they can for this opportunity and
they can't have it. And that's from my perspective of
somebody who always wanted that and could never afford it
when I was younger. And so if I think there,
that's what I think the problem is if I go
(20:09):
away from that and I go to the ange Rogueiro
Denim Dad's conversation, Right, that's youth sports, and that you're right,
isn't about compensation. That's about care. And that's where I
find the biggest stop gap between feeling like you can
get women in and then just a happens to be
(20:29):
the parent of a child on those teams. What are
we missing like going to colleges, making relationships, engaging with
those kids, finding ways to get your local state college,
whatever team to be involved in your youth program, and
then making them invest in a care community service hours.
Like how are we bridging that gap? Because right now
(20:50):
we're not, are we?
Speaker 1 (20:51):
And I think that that's like the mentoring thing is
hugely important, Like we used to be that you had
the option when I was at Wisconsin. I don't know
if it's if it's changed, but I think it should
be required of every student athlete to do community service
like we could do. We did children's hospital visits and
Ronald McDonald house and soup kitchen and like everything right,
(21:12):
but then there was also like you could we would
go to elementary schools and read to kids. I think
that should be a requirement of all athletic programs because
one you identify within yourself if you enjoy coaching. Everyone
has the opportunity to go back to their community and
coach in some capacity, and so you learn that about
(21:33):
yourself through some of these programs where you're engaging with kids,
even if it's not the sport. And then all of
a sudden, we have within all of these communities, many
of which are low income or high risk et cetera,
et cetera. You create role models within those communities who
these kids see coming back to give back, and the
cycle continues. Like coaching is such an easy and implant
(21:59):
way to build community. Well, yeah, fulfilling for the coach,
but I'm saying I'm saying to build like I say
it all the time. Within the definition of sport is
the word community and a coach's job is to create
a community within a community, create leaders, create mentors, create
a cycle where people right like you see these towns
(22:20):
where coaches, there's generations of people coaching high school teams
or coaches. That's like the everything. Like, imagine if if
more people took that kind of pride in their in
their small town team.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yes, And then I think about it from somebody that
employs people. And when someone can come to me in
an interview with a passion outside of sales, that is
something that they have done to make a difference. What
a differentiator. And I hate to use difference in two
different terms there, but what a differentiator from a perspective
of showing me, Yes, I went to college, I played
(22:55):
X y Z sport, and here is the difference that
I used with them that experience to make in this
small impact or in this large impact. I remember the
first time I talked about mental health. I had so
many teams for Massachusetts because I was a Massachusetts kid,
I was playing pro hockey. I was really talking about
mental health all the time. And I had four or
(23:17):
five six different teams have a mental health game in
their high school. And I remember being like, oh my goodness,
my words have scale. My scale can change lives, and
that is why I'm going to make myself painfully uncomfortable
to talk about all of the worst parts of my
life that I've had to endure. I just showed up
more all the time because I wanted to have that scale.
(23:40):
I could talk right now for hours with any executive
about the work that I've done outside of my workplace,
outside of the ice. Has nothing to do with my stats,
but that made a real difference. And I think that
people don't feel that level of fulfillment because they go, oh,
I don't want to coach XYZ youth team, but why not.
That's where I think women's sports are underinvested because we
(24:03):
don't do a good enough job. Because women are impaths.
That's why we're amazing. That's what makes women better in
every way we care. And so by not inviting women
into spaces that they will inevitably care about, we are
creating spaces where the denim dads take over the bench
and these girls don't see it, and it makes a
(24:25):
humongous impact. I have a coach that I want to
talk about, but before I do, do you have anything
to say on that?
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Yeah, I just want to I was thinking the same
thing as you were talking, like the emphasis that we
need to place on it's not about creating roles for women.
Like women play women's sports, men play men's sports. Those
are our avenues forward to play at the professional level, right,
But like our brains don't operate at a slower pace.
(25:04):
I mean in many cases, it's actually the opposite. It's
why you see high hockey IQs on the women's side
because we play growing up with the boys. You play
getting hit and you have to think faster than them.
So this notion and idea, at least in hockey, but
even in every other sport, I would argue that women
have to think faster because men typically are moving faster.
So you know, in any competitive like team contact, passing, whatever,
(25:30):
you have to think at the same pace or faster
than those around you if you don't want to get caught, hit,
et cetera. So it's why you see success from women
in coaching men's hockey. There are a lot of them
out there. Jess Campbell is the only one currently at
the NHL level, but there are tons of incredible, brilliant
women working within the NHL. Well, you had successful, accomplished careers.
(25:53):
And also, you don't have to be a great player
to be a great coach. You could be I mean,
Wayne Gretzky was not a great coach. He's a great
analyst kind of, but he's not like he's entertaining, right,
but he wasn't a great coach, admitted itself. A really
my thing always is at the youth level, they're two
different conversations, right, obviously, But at the youth level, you
(26:13):
walk into these rooms, especially in hockey, and it's just
a bunch of salt and pepper men, and I'm like,
they all want to give their opinion on what's best
for the girls. And I was at a meeting one
time and I'm like, I'm like, can I just ask
a question, a clarifying question. Since we're talking about what's
best for the girls, how many of you have ever
been a fifteen year old girl? Yeah? And they're all
like duh. I'm like, so, don't we think that we
(26:36):
should maybe give a moment to the women in the
room to share what they think might be if they're
like developmental interest or the kids might find interesting, like
the perspective of the voice being heard needs to be
different for people, Like some people respond better to women,
some people respond better to men. But just your outlook
on life, your life experiences, what's important, resources block everything.
(27:00):
To not have a mix of both at the table,
it's crazy.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
And I think that that's the part. Like if you
look at Christy Tolliver in now the WNBA, but was
in the NBA, Becky Hammond, right like we see it
in the in basketball a lot because the x's and
o's for the most part are pretty similar, right Like,
there's like the same kind of foundational all that to say,
those operational foundational for the opportunities said foundational roundationally speaking,
(27:29):
there's a problem when we look at how we view women.
If we're saying in youth sports, let's have like minded
voices speak in pro sports, that can change, right, But
going through puberty, putting on your gear, having your period
for your first time, you know, all these things, looking
(27:50):
too muscular, being called a name, like all of these
things don't impact these men the same way. Or this
is where I want to talk about this coach. I
had a coach in high school. He was the assistant coach.
He came in my junior year. His name was Todd Fletcher.
He was young. He just came off of I mean
(28:11):
he was a public school teacher, so he had a
master like. He was young. I'm gonna stick with you.
Was young. Our head coach was a very old, extremely
heavy set white man. Todd was a young former player
that played D one hockey for UMass Lowell. And he
came in and he looked at the entire team and
(28:31):
I said, Todd, I want to play D one hockey.
I want this opportunity. Tell me everything you can, give me,
all of your best advice. He looked at me, he
sat me down, and he gave me extremely tangible practical information.
At that point in time, now thirteen years ago, there
weren't women that were coming out that were there in
(28:51):
front of me. But when you look at the two examples,
I had a man that just played and a guy
that was sixty six. I can promise you when the
sixty six year old man told me I was completely
uncoachable and I had no future in hockey and I
wasn't going to be a captain of my team, and
a thirty year old dude who just played that said,
(29:12):
these are all the things you have to do, These
are all the ways that you're going to get there.
This is all the things I'm gonna do. Who am
I going to listen to? My life was changed because
I had Todd Fletcher in my life, Like nothing about
what I'm sitting here doing today would be the same
if Todd never entered my life. Now, imagine that's Madison Packer,
Anya Packer, Casey Anderson x y Z athlete, like we
(29:36):
can be those people.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
I want to dig in on that because I want
to understand so and I guess I should clarify my point,
but I'll tell a similar story about a coach who
was a sixty year old man, Earl Size, and I
got I had a spot on a team. They told
me I had a spot, went on vacation. They cut
me while I was gone because they whatever it was
(29:58):
because I was a girl. And then Earl coach Ural
called my dad and said, Madison's always got a spot
to play. And he literally created space on his team
for me to play and train until I could find
a better team to play on. And like he his
rule of thumb always was, as long as I'm involved
in hockey, Madison has a place to play. And that
(30:20):
was a really pivotal time in my Like that was
my I was thirteen, I was going into high school,
Like it was a pivotal year. I mean, imagine not
playing hockey.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
For a whole hour at that point, like I can't.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
And all of that to say, I think that the
point that is being made is that we didn't know
any different, and I will forever be grateful to coach Ural.
But I was also the only girl, constantly called names,
constantly bullied kids. One time I had teammates p and
my hockey bag, like I was the only girl always
(30:51):
in the rink. And now you've got girls teams, You've
got that there's more opportunity that exists for women to
be involved. Sixty year old men with a wealth of
hockey knowledge are fine, They're great. Mark Johnson is one
of the greatest coaches of all time. The job needs
to go to the most qualified person. But the argument
that there aren't a plethora of qualified women out there
(31:11):
to get involved and give back and be as qualified,
if not more qualified than men currently doing the job,
specifically at the women's level youth hockey and professionally, I
think is crazy.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
I don't disagree that's we have two different six year
old white men know in these stories mine is.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
That's my point. That just was my point, because it's
nothing against the men. It's just that in some cases
that's not the best person for the job, even if
they've been there for forever.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Right, That's what I'm saying is and my todd could
be insert any female athlete now, but at that point
in time, it was somebody who had real tangible experience
with the goal I was trying to achieve. And because
that voice was somebody that I could resonate with, that
was some that gave me belief, that gave me. He
(32:02):
gave me an inch and I turned it into one
hundred miles. That is so important because he had the
courage to say the opposite of the you know, head
coach in that perspective, Yes I believe in you, Yes
you're coachable. Don't internalize this, do internalize that, right, all
these like motivating things. He never yelled. He was always
(32:23):
there to hear me out. He watched my you know,
we used to clip together these highlight videos, which there
were no highlights. I can promise you that. But he
gave me time, He invested in me, and I think
that That's what I'm trying to say about women is
I think the general the kind of ground floor of
a female coach. They've got nothing but time and empathy
(32:47):
for your feelings, for what you're going through, for your
lived experience, and you will be a better human being
for contributing that time to somebody younger than you and
receiving it as a kid. And that is really important
to me. That's important to me as a former athlete
to be able to give that time. Then the other day,
the girls are working out in the gym, and I
(33:09):
work out in the gym right down the hallway, and
I said, I'm gonna go work out in the gym
that they're working out in. One they're gonna see me
at thirty three years old and what it looks like
to work out as me, and that hopefully they're gonna
be like, you know, let's let's go kick it up
a notch because I am a psychopath in the gym.
But also, they're gonna see a woman right now. They
(33:30):
don't right besides you and I, there's a lot of
men in the room, and that's not always the same.
And a lift for a sixteen year old boy is
different than a lift for a sixteen year old girl.
And if you've never been a sixteen year old girl,
you don't know that. The amount of research that we
have on athletic performance that has to do with exclusively men,
(33:54):
it's over ninety percent, and that other ten percent isn't
dedicated to women. It's general. There's such a tiny, tiny,
tiny piece of the pie that's even contributed to understanding
how the female body works. Let alone, is that being
wed by a trainer in southern Connecticut. Probably not.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Another big part of it is, like, you know, I
work with Bob Crawford. I love the man. He's like
love it like another dad. Like he's a great, great guy,
very accomplished player, many years in the NHL, great coaching style.
Him and I get along great. We have very different
relationships with the kids. And one of the players said
it to me the other day. She was like, we're
(34:39):
just closer with you, and I was like, I was like,
what do you mean by that? And she goes, you know,
like we have a bond, and I mean, I've known
these kids for five weeks. And it made me feel
really good that she said that, But also it just
clicked for me that like that's for some of these kids,
(34:59):
that's all they need, right, Like I mean seriously, that
has been my biggest motivator when I got involved with
this program. I didn't want to over commit because I
knew I had other things going on, and I didn't
want to disappoint the kids. However, like I lose sleep
at night over over some of these kids because I
feel so badly. I just couldn't imagine being a kid
(35:21):
with some of the pressure that they have and the
social media and hearing what some of my kids go through.
And I think that that is a huge, huge driver.
Is that for whatever reason, a number of the male
coaches that I've spoken to are like, well, I don't
want to make them cry, Like they don't they don't
know how really to interact, right because girl women or
girls cry and they're like, oh, well, I feel badly.
(35:43):
I feel like they can't push them too hard. But
then they're you know, a different kind of negative and
it's just like there's not that like that emotional connection, right,
and there's not that same ability to recognize Like I've
had kids that cry on the bench all the time,
and I'll be talking to them and ignore completely the
fact that they're crying, right, and like like that's okay,
(36:05):
And like teaching these young girls who are going to
become women that like speak up for your feelings, communicate
how you feel. Like like the question that I get
most often what can I do better? I don't answer
that question anymore because it's it's it's a ridiculous question
everything anything. You can always be better at everything you do,
So really ask me the question that you really want
to ask. And I had a kid one time saying,
(36:26):
what do you mean? So when you say what can
I do better?
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Yeah, what do you want?
Speaker 1 (36:30):
The purpose of that? Are you asking what you can
do better? So you can make good videos of yourself?
Like is it so that you can get more playing time?
Why do you want to be better?
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Well?
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Yeah, I want more playing time? So then what can
I do to earn more opportunity? What can I do
to earn more ice time? Because like, I don't give it, right,
you earn it. And the kids started their minds started
to shift and they apply that Like that's what I
was going to say, say them things through sport that
apply to life, because you're you're a human. Long after
you're done being an athlete.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Right, And that's the part, that's the part and power
that I think the empathetic element of women have for
young girls. And we talk about this all the time,
and I could go into my humongous speech, but the
way you treat a college male athlete with the onset
of the NHL is different than the way you treat
a female athlete with the onset of at least when
(37:19):
we were in school, nothing or a low level job
that at Max is paying you one hundred grand when
a Max NHL contract is in the millions. You can't
give them the same advice. You can't say to a
female athlete who cares about your grades because you can
go to the PWHL. You can't do that. You have
to arm her with the skills and tools to have
(37:41):
a long life because she doesn't have a fat stack
of cash to go retire on and open up a
foundation and do that. That's not in the cards. So
I love everything you have.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Full circle back to the yelling, yeah right, like that's
all full Like I'm not And that's what I said
to the kids in the kitchen yesterday. I'm not going
to scream at you and brate you and belittle you
to motivate you, because I'm then teaching a whole generation
of women that you need to be broken down and
shown how wrong and bad you are in order to
find the motivation, yeah, to do better. And that's just wrong,
(38:16):
and like we deserve.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Better, right, And if we could all communicate a little
bit more clearly and a little bit more empathetically, what
a better world? And I think that is the actual
responsibility of coaches. Yes we care about placements, Yes we
care about colleges, we talk to the scouts, we do
all the things. But if we bring twenty better human
beings into the next stage of their life than as
(38:38):
coaches we have succeeded. We can be proud. We can
continue on, we can continue to recruit, we can do
all the things. Knowing that people are better after experiencing
us versus scared. Being afraid gets you nothing. So I
love the conversation around coaching. I think it's incredibly timely.
(38:58):
I've enjoyed welcoming twenty kids into our stratosphere. While it
can be laborious, it certainly is important. So thank you
for the conversation, coach.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
She'll love the grocery bill.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Yeah, coach, jeez, how many chicken breasts do we need
when these kids come over? It's insane, but good work, coach.
I'm proud of you. Well, I think that's enough. I
feel like we've covered all the bases, so thank you
so much. I look forward to everybody tuning in next
time on These Packs Buck.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
That's it for this week.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Thanks for listening, and if you like what you heard,
spread the word seriously right now, take your phone out,
text a friend and tell them to subscribe.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
And be sure to rate and review us on Apple
Podcasts and Spotify if you haven't already. It really really helps.
Until next week. I'm Madison Packer and.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
I'm on your Packer, and this was These Packs Puck.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
These Packs Puck is a production of Iheartwomen's Sports and
Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. It's hosted by us Madison
and on You Packer. Emily Mayer is our senior producer
and story editor. We were mixed and mastered by Mary dew.
Our executive producers are Jennifer Bassett, Jesse Katz, and Ally
Perry
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